Bukti Negara on Youtube

[TalkwithThunder]

Anyone see the new Bukti Negara stuff on Youtube? What do you think?

[firecoins]

Is there a link?

[doc_jude]

Is there a link?
Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BuktiPlayer
I've got three words for you:
Sloppy, Sloppy, SLOPPY!!!

JMO, of course.

[doc_jude]

Say, you wouldn't have just gotten here to plug some of this Bukti Negara stuff that Paul dreamed up, would you?

[TalkwithThunder]

doc jude,
Sloppy compared to what? Actually, I haven't been doing much but watching this forum lately and I forgot my password, so I am under a new screen name. The tone of your question says that you don't give Bukti Negara any credence. You got any hands on experience with current Bukti Negara players or just hearsay? Truthfully, I haven't seen the clip yet as I can't seem to get flashplayer downloaded (I'm not very computer savvy and my computer is old). If you don't mind me asking what is your background?

[Monyet Nakal]

I think "sloppy" is a bit of an exagerration and oversimplification. The techniques seem a little grandiose and delivered from a longer range than the Bukti Negara stuff I am familiar with, but since this is obviously an exhibition or seminar where you want people to see what's going on, that is understandable. All in all I'd say they are more of a decent representation than quite a few other clips I've seen on YouTube.

(And what's wrong with plugging stuff on a forum? Happens all the time.)

[doc_jude]

I think "sloppy" is a bit of an exagerration and oversimplification. The techniques seem a little grandiose and delivered from a longer range than the Bukti Negara stuff I am familiar with, but since this is obviously an exhibition or seminar where you want people to see what's going on, that is understandable. All in all I'd say they are more of a decent representation than quite a few other clips I've seen on YouTube.
I don't know, but the strikes seem rather arbitrary, I saw a backfist which appeared to be aimed right at the mouth. Not smart.
They just looked sloppy to me. I'll have to look at them again.

(And what's wrong with plugging stuff on a forum? Happens all the time.)
Heheheh. You're so right.

[doc_jude]

doc jude,
Sloppy compared to what? Actually, I haven't been doing much but watching this forum lately and I forgot my password, so I am under a new screen name. The tone of your question says that you don't give Bukti Negara any credence. You got any hands on experience with current Bukti Negara players or just hearsay? Truthfully, I haven't seen the clip yet as I can't seem to get flashplayer downloaded (I'm not very computer savvy and my computer is old). If you don't mind me asking what is your background?
After reading all of your excuses...
Been training Pentjak Silat Ratu Adil for awhile.
I guess this version of watered down Pukulan just isn't my cup of tea. But I guess I shouldn't expect too much, since most folks can't handle teh R347 Serak, so this is what they get :rolleyes:

[TalkwithThunder]

doc jude,
Been training "for awhile" is a little ambiguous. Please, (and I say this in a non-threatening manner) if you get a chance and are in the area come out to a class. You can find one in OH, CA, or PA. You speak of "Paul" as if you don't know him. I'm always amazed that people want to speak so irreverently of him. Is this from knowing the guy and making your own opinion or are you just regurgitating other peoples thoughts? You never did say if you have any first hand experience with current BN players.

[tellner]

So, TalkinWithThunder, are you any relation to the troll named "Bukti Player" who has been stirring the untreated effluent on certain other forums?

[doc_jude]

doc jude,
Been training "for awhile" is a little ambiguous. Please, (and I say this in a non-threatening manner) if you get a chance and are in the area come out to a class. You can find one in OH, CA, or PA.
No thank you. If that video is any proof, I'm not interested.

You speak of "Paul" as if you don't know him.
You're right. I don't, & I don't care to. You knowing him is enough for both of us.

I'm always amazed that people want to speak so irreverently of him.
I'm sure you are :rolleyes:
Hang out alittle while longer, you figure out why.

Is this from knowing the guy and making your own opinion or are you just regurgitating other peoples thoughts? You never did say if you have any first hand experience with current BN players.
You know, my daddy once told me,"A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from other people's mistakes." I'm more wise than smart, in that context.

[doc_jude]

Anyone see the new Bukti Negara stuff on Youtube? What do you think?





Just thought that I'd remind you, you asked for everyone's opinion, in an open forum. Don't get upset if you don't get back what you want, or if not everyone agrees that Bukti Negari is just the Uber. It ain't. JMI.

[TalkwithThunder]

doc jude,
You still refrain from answering questions. You also seem to have some preconceived notion of who "Paul" is based on what someone else told you. A wise man seeks the facts, and usually from more than one source. I don't have any problem with your opinion you are misreading my tone in that regard, and I courteously invited you to observe and or participate in a class. I'm hoping to check out the video myself tonight. Maybe I'll think it's sloppy too?

tellner,
I don't know specifically who "Bukti Player" is but I probably know him. I'll have to find some of his posts.

[Gajah Silat]

Forgive my silat non de Thours bubble, but what is 'JMI' :confused:

[TalkwithThunder]

My guess was JMO spelled wrong. I think JMO is "just my opinion". Like I said I'm not very computer savvy, could be something else.

[Gajah Silat]

:D LOL :D

And there was me thinking it was another Dutch Indo style for you guys to disagree about :D :love:

I'll leave you two guys to it ;)

[Monyet Nakal]

Yeah I would guess either a "Just My..." acronym or Doc Jude signing off with his initials maybe.

[TalkwithThunder]

Gajah Silat,
Funny you should say that because I thought "oh, no not another version of Serak" when I saw teh R347 Serak. I'm going to have to hire some texting 12 year old so that I can keep up.

[doc_jude]

Gajah Silat,
Funny you should say that because I thought "oh, no not another version of Serak" when I saw teh R347 Serak. I'm going to have to hire some texting 12 year old so that I can keep up.

Yeah, it was a typo. Just My Opinion.
Hey, what with all the e-arguments, I decided to resort to 1337. Just trying to make a point. I guess it was only funny to me. Oh well. Wouldn't be the first time... ;)

Been training "for awhile" is a little ambiguous. Please, (and I say this in a non-threatening manner) if you get a chance and are in the area come out to a class. You can find one in OH, CA, or PA. You speak of "Paul" as if you don't know him. I'm always amazed that people want to speak so irreverently of him. Is this from knowing the guy and making your own opinion or are you just regurgitating other peoples thoughts? You never did say if you have any first hand experience with current BN players.

Actually, I have formed my opinion not only from conversations while in "Rudy's Camp", but from some longtime former - senior students of theirs(Paul & Vic) that I am in contact with. Too many stories coincide for me to disregard them. (I have first-hand experience of Serak.)
Plus, looking at what their students are putting out on the web as an example of what they do, and looking at what I see in class on a weekly basis, I'm sticking with what I do.
NHF (No Hard Feelings) :)

[TalkwithThunder]

doc jude,
I appreciate you changing your tone. I am also sad that you have already formed your opinion. I would hope that you can approach things with an open mind. I think that I have stated in another post that if you hear something often enough it becomes the truth (especially if it is not refuted). PDT and his associates haven't hardly been heard from for 10 years. They haven't to my knowledge ever addressed a forum such as this with their side of the story. I would still hope that you would check BN out. It would be great if you could talk to some current students of PDT and then form an opinion. And I seriously would have never gotten NHF.
Bart

[doc_jude]

Thanks for the invite. If the op falls in my lap, I'll take it, but for now, I'm cool. Too much on my plate these days to just drop it all and chase MAs. Having kids will do that... ;)

[doc_jude]

doc jude, I think that I have stated in another post that if you hear something often enough it becomes the truth (especially if it is not refuted).
This reminds me of the story about Rudy's "broken ankle" not being refuted. There are some heated folks on this side of that argument, especially with it being perpetuated by such MA noobies as are on this BB lately. I've seen so many things like this since I started MAs in my teens (almost 20years ago). Funny how I have about as much tolerance for it now as I had then.
The Internet is not the place to have a thin skin. I've learned that over the years. But out&out lies should never be tolerated.

[tellner]

Well TWT, it's a natural question all things considered. A number of people - mostly anonymous cowards - have been showing up in other fori with the same line. "Have you seen the Bukti Negara clips on YouTube?" It pretty quickly turns into another slanderfest.

First there's the mild stuff. "You can see what Bukti Negara is all about."

Then there's "Why don't you come and see the Real Thing for yourself."

All good so far.

But it quickly takes a turn for the worse when the attacks start on any and all former students of Paul de Thouars. Specifically, it usually includes Dan Inosanto, Cass Magda, Steve Plinck and Cliff Stewart. Decades of time in grade are magically transformed into "just four or five years", and of course "His skills are just mediocre because he didn't learn the Secrets. We have the Real Thing."

Then there's the whole mystical Lineage flame war.

Then there's "These self-promoted nobodies are just in it for the money and are diluting the Art. If they weren't such SHPOS's they and their students would come down here begging to bask in the reflected glory of the Real Gurus."

At that point it starts getting nasty. There's usually references to "irreverence" and "disrespect" and similar.

We've seen this several times before. The only difference is that this time there are video clips to start the ball rolling.

So that's why I ask. A guy gets kind of tired of playing whack-a-troll, and I'm really hoping you aren't another one. Seeing that this happened in the last couple days with almost exactly the same intro it's only natural that the question comes up.

If it happens, never fear. There's a FRAPPE (Frequent Rant, Attractively Packaged and Possibly Eloquent) warming up in the bullpen :rolleyes:

[TalkwithThunder]

tellner,
Most of "our camp" has no experience on this or any other forum. We've watched the forums but haven't participated. When I first started posting I got whacked, and should have, as a troll. I don't know it all. At that time I didn't have any experience posting. I know what I have been taught, told, and I have seen. People in my camp will get rolled over in these forums because they are walking into traps and have little experience, but they are still only saying what they have seen or been told. We have no reason to disbelieve our teacher, you have no reason to disbelieve yours. As you know, noobies tend to resort to "I can beat you up or My teacher can beat your teacher". Have you done it? I have seen and heard a lot, as have you. I was at the camp when you tested for Guru Muda in BN, so I have been around for a long time. I was either testing for guru or one of my students was testing for guru muda, I don't remember which. A lot has happened in "our camp" since then. About 5 years ago, PDT told me that BN had enough information placed into it to make it a stand-alone and complete art (not that we couldn't fight with it before). You guys departed 10 years ago? I am here, predominantly, to inform people about Bukti Negara. I will also tell "my side" of the story, as I know it and have seen it. I will try not to profess to know "the truth." PDT is a good and honorable man.

[TalkwithThunder]

doc jude,
I have four kids myself, so I understand your joy/plight. I don't think that any of the guys that are posting are martial arts noobs, they are just forum noobs. A couple are "converts" from other camps and all of them are zealots. We/they do have thin skins. What are you purporting to be a lie (maybe best if you PM me with this answer, whatever you think)? I've only heard bits and pieces of the Rudy ankle story.
Bart

[tellner]

tellner,
Most of "our camp" has no experience on this or any other forum. We've watched the forums but haven't participated.

I really hope this doesn't devolve any further into camps. That's been the problem from the beginning. Family issues get turned into public ones, and the sins of the teachers get visited on the students yea unto the seventh generation. And there's a tendency for martial artists in general to act like fourth graders - "I don't like him, and you play with him, so I won't play with you" - which makes it even better.

I won't say it sucks. If it sucked it would be good for something :rolleyes:

The forums are new and add possibilities both for communication and conflict. USENET was one thing. Private mailing lists were another. This is still another.

Many of the people involved have changed. I'm kind of strange, a computer geek who stuck with Silat the whole time and got wired early. So I've had a chance to see the patterns emerge over time. Perhaps too much time. Something that's new to most people will trigger an "Oh crap, not again." Ten years ago it was a different set of people.

It's not like Paul's students were completely absent at the time. When he and Steve parted ways I got a fair share of abuse and the odd personal threat. Unfortunately it was all anonymous from people who knew things that would have required them to be close to the principals. Things like that kept popping up over the years. And it's happening again now.

People in my camp will get rolled over in these forums because they are walking into traps and have little experience, but they are still only saying what they have seen or been told. We have no reason to disbelieve our teacher, you have no reason to disbelieve yours.

It's not so much because of who your teacher is. Lord knows I've been singing the praises of Mr. de Thoaurs as a martial artist and a teacher for a long long time. If you look at Steve's other student who haunts the electronic coffee houses - Steve Perry - you'll find the same.

After some soul-searching and serious thought here's what seems to be happening. This is my best guess, and I'll try to speak honestly from the heart.

Back in the fifties, sixties and seventies there was almost no Silat in North America. There was never a big wave of Indonesian and Malaysian immigrants. It was a long way away and not a popular destination. Mostly it was Dutch Indos, and not too many of them, the de Thouars family, the Ter Lindens, Wetzel, Ingram, Reeders and that was pretty much it for people you could find.

Now the world is smaller. Lots of Malays (I hate having to write "Malaysians, Southern Filipinos, Indonesians, Some of the people from New Guinea, Bruneians, and a scattering of people from Southern Thailand and Singapore" every time :) ) travel to the West. A growing number of Westerners study martial arts in Southeast Asia and find that things are different than what they're used to. Different people, different time, different context, somewhat different traditions.

This leads to even more difficulties. Bobbe, a sometimes poster here, studied with the de Thouars family for quite a while. He also goes to Bandung every year to train with his teachers there. Indonesians open schools in New York. The increased contact is good for everyone for the most part. But it's exposed what was once the unquestioned Way Silat Is Done(tm) to critical scrutiny that can sometimes be uncomfortable.

Then along comes the Internet. All of a sudden it's not just a guy a few hundred miles away who's teaching during his lunch hour at the Malaysian Consulate. University students in London, doctors in Kuala Lumpur, wing nuts from East Armpit, Lower Slobbovia and even large Amphibians from Oregon (*Ribbit!*) all hang out in the same coffee house. There are more perspectives and more information but more misinformation and more room for people to have cross words or ones that are perceived that way.

I'm trying to be succinct, but this takes a little explaining. You're in an awkward position. You walked into a room, thought you were doing everything right, and *WHAM* someone throws his beer in your face and hits you with the glass. And a bunch of other people shake his hand and say "Good job, that. He deserved it." It's nice to know why :rolleyes:

So to the best of my knowledge, here's what's going on...

The Dutch-Indo martial arts have a not completely deserved poor reputation. It's not that we can't fight or don't know our stuff. When I say "I study Serak" I hold my head up high and say it loudly and clearly.

Some of it is prejudice. A lot of Indonesians have little love for the former colonizers and have a strong sense of national pride. It can come out in discussions about martial arts. "Ah, well, you see the Dutch never had to develop any skill. They were big and strong, so their Silat was kind of crude," or my favorite "You can't possibly understand. You see, REAL Silat is only practiced by the right sort of Muslim." It can be hard not to give the traditional response of "OK, mother****er. I'm going to give you your first free lesson in inferior martial arts." Really, really hard sometimes :yeleyes:

Some of it, quite frankly, is that the things we were told may have been true then or in context but aren't or don't apply. I used to think that there was one line of Sera from the Badui Bapak Sera to Judt to Johan de Vries, to John de Vries, to Paul de Thoaurs. Each in turn had control and some sort of ownership of the system. Nobody else did.

It turns out that that isn't even close to true. There's plenty of Sera in Indonesia. The Suwandas included it in their martial arts. According to Bobbe, the last time he was over there it was just considered "another Silat". The curriculum is somewhat different. The weapons are different. The history people tell is different. And there isn't just one straight tree from root to crown. It's more like a thicket that has its roots somewhere in Cimande and sets down suckers here and there. The idea that there is only one way to do it and that the style is the family property of someone living in America is quite literally laughable to Indonesian practitioners.

This kind of thing played better with North Americans in days past. Consumers today are better educated and (I hope) less easily mystified.

The way that family issues within the de Thouars clan end up in being aired in public has not helped matters. They deserve tremendous respect as martial artists and teachers, but the brothers do quarrel among themselves. Sometimes it spills over onto their students and gets shouted in the public square. And the esteem in which they are held and in which Silat in general is regarded suffers a little each time.

There has also been a tendency for history to get rewritten as convenient. No matter how bitter the falling out facts can't really be erased. Again, when it was just one guy and the small number of people who showed up at his house it was one thing. Now that information is stored and passed around it's another.

This is where some of the really serious trouble starts.

One of the first things that happens in these episodes is that whoever is showing up will say "So-and-so might be able to fight, but he never really trained for very long and doesn't know the Real Secrets. If you want the straight dope, come and see us, because our people really do have it all, and nobody else does." The problem is that this happens even when it's simple to show that that just isn't so.

We could list the people who were the fair-haired boys of one or another of the family at a given time. It would not be a short list. Many of them have now been disowned, left to do whatever they do, or have been cast into Outer Darkness. All of a sudden they never trained. Or they were only there for a couple of years. Or they never did the real secret family style. Or only the Lineage Holder got the good stuff. The problem is that in many many cases it's not only not true, it's childishly simple to disprove. It, quite understandably, ticks off the target of the slander and his friends and students. It also makes onlookers very skeptical about Silat in general and the de Thouars family in particular.

For the record, Steve Plinck really had been training at Serak long before most of the current crop of senior students had ever done Silat. It wasn't just, as they say now, "three or four years". Cliff Stewart had the big fancy title in Bukti Negara and was called a "traditional disciple of Serak" at least twelve years ago. You were there when he was the head of the board which tested my wife and I to be Guru Muda.

I understand that you are just repeating what you've been told by people you respect. It's not your fault. But someone told you things that aren't true. And when some of us hear the same ones every couple of years from a new crop of people, well, it gets annoying after a while. I don't know who's ultimately responsible, and frankly I don't really care all that much. I just wish it would stop.


As you know, noobies tend to resort to "I can beat you up or My teacher can beat your teacher". Have you done it?

Heck, no! I will say that Steve has excellent skills. He's a hell of a fighter, a real perfectionist as a technician and one of the best teachers of any sort whom I've met. But I will absolutely not say "Paul de Thouars? He's nothing compared to my guy!" That would be just plain wrong. It wouldn't do anything good for anyone. And it wouldnt' be true. When Steve says "My only hope would be to run around him in circles try to get in one lucky punch when he got tired" I take him at his word.

As far as me saying "I can beat up you", same sort of thing. It's immature. It proves nothing. And there's always the chance that someone will call you on it.

Paul de Thouars deserves pride of place in pretty much any martial arts circle. From a student's selfish perspective I'm very happy about that. Steve is a superb pracititioner, but I recognize that he wouldn't have gotten where he was today if it hadn't been for his teacher, and I wouldn't have the benefits of the excellent training he received. ;)


I have seen and heard a lot, as have you. I was at the camp when you tested for Guru Muda in BN, so I have been around for a long time. I was either testing for guru or one of my students was testing for guru muda, I don't remember which.
That is very cool. I really enjoyed the camp and had a great time with the people I met there. I've always regretted that things went South soon afterwards. But at the time my choice was simple though painful.

A lot has happened in "our camp" since then. About 5 years ago, PDT told me that BN had enough information placed into it to make it a stand-alone and complete art (not that we couldn't fight with it before). You guys departed 10 years ago? I am here, predominantly, to inform people about Bukti Negara. I will also tell "my side" of the story, as I know it and have seen it. I will try not to profess to know "the truth." PDT is a good and honorable man.

Very cool. The snapshots I've seen of it since then showed some real evolution.

It's great that people from Paul's cabang are getting out more, and I really do wish you guys well. I just want to make sure that the traditional swiftboating of everyone who isn't currently in favor doesn't happen again. People like Cliff Stewart and Steve Plinck really are what they say they are. The past is past and can't be changed or undone. And Guro Inosanto should require no defense whatsoever.

It's like I said in that other forum. For the most part we're like my pet snake L33t. Most of the time she sits on her branch. Every couple weeks she has a few plump rats for dinner. She's a really laid-back reptile as long as you don't do something to annoy her. Rattle her cage and she'll hiss. Poke at her enough or disturb her while she's busy eating a rat and she'll bite. A lot of what we've gotten over the years has been banging on the cage, poking with a sharp stick and putting itching powder on the branch. I'd much rather curl up and bask under the heat lamp

[gungfujoe]

doc jude,
Been training "for awhile" is a little ambiguous.Given that neither of you have any substantive information in your profiles, and neither of you back up your posts with a name, you certainly appear to be the proverbial pot calling the kettle black in your post. Who are you, and how long have you been studying Bukti Negara?

Personally, I don't care about any feud between Bukti Negara and any other systems. I have my own opinions on the matter, but they're not especially informed opinions, so I'll keep them to myself. :)

[TalkwithThunder]

gungfujoe,
My name is Bart. I have been practicing martial arts for 20 years, 15 of which have been Bukti Negara. I have taught BN for about 10 years. For about 2 years, I haven't taught as much since a senior teacher has moved within 30 minutes of me and my previous students and I train with him. I live in Ohio. You are welcome to come train. Actually, I think I have signed my name. Maybe just not to that post. Guess I need to beef up my personal profile. Should I give my last name or is that proper etiquette? Bart

[gungfujoe]

My name is Bart. I have been practicing martial arts for 20 years, 15 of which have been Bukti Negara. I have taught BN for about 10 years.Thanks, Bart. That definitely helps put your posts into some context. All too often, you see people with very little experience brashly speaking in an authoritative manner, or someone with decades of experience masquerading as a newbie.
Should I give my last name or is that proper etiquette? BartI only offer my own opinions on such matters. It's not for me to say what one should do on this forum. This forum seems more "alias-obsessed" than almost any other I've been active on. Virtually no one posts their real name here, and even when someone does, everyone else still addresses them by their login ID. I have found that, on forums in general, there's a pretty good correlation between the number of silly flame wars and the number of people who don't stand behind what they say with a name that means anything outside of cyberspace. USENET and email lists seem to be at two ends of the Internet Civility spectrum, with web forums somewhere in between. :)

[Monyet Nakal]

Todd,

What a well thought out and illuminative post. I might not agree with *all* of your points (and some I do admittedly a little begrudgingly :) ) but the crux of it I whole heartedly concur with and I hope it is read, received and absorbed in the spirit intended by as many people as possible on this forum.

Terima kasih

[Silatyogi]

and Steve parted ways I got a fair share of abuse and the odd personal threat. Unfortunately it was all anonymous from people who knew things that would have required them to be close to the principals. Things like that kept popping up over the years. And it's happening again now.

yes it's interesting to get challenges on the phone from people who want to see me "Activate my Serak"...(whatever that means). It is also interesting to all of a sudden get messages on other boards from people who I met once for a brief moment say they are Friends and I should ditch my teacher because he is mediocre and that Guru Stevan Plinck is a "mess" and I should join the PDT camp instead. I know of others in my teachers group that recieved a phone call before the last Pendekar Camp saying to them could come train with the Pendekar if they stopped training with my teacher.


It turns out that that isn't even close to true. There's plenty of Sera in Indonesia. The Suwandas included it in their martial arts. According to Bobbe, the last time he was over there it was just considered "another Silat". The curriculum is somewhat different. The weapons are different. The history people tell is different. And there isn't just one straight tree from root to crown. It's more like a thicket that has its roots somewhere in Cimande and sets down suckers here and there. The idea that there is only one way to do it and that the style is the family property of someone living in America is quite literally laughable to Indonesian practitioners.

Aint that the truth...AMEN to that.

Guru Cliff has spent the last few years researching further the roots of the art he was taught.

Like in music you want to know how to solo you have to understand the components, scales, arpeggios, phrases, stylized expression, vibrato, timing, etc so you have to investigate the fundamentals that are behind what ever music or style or solo you are trying to learn to master..

There is no reason why there can't be "expressions" of Silat styles, and expresions of SERAK. Bukti is in fact an expresion of Serak. Anyone with the right tools, the right awarness, the right fundamentals , can infact express themselves effectively.



We could list the people who were the fair-haired boys of one or another of the family at a given time. It would not be a short list. Many of them have now been disowned, left to do whatever they do, or have been cast into Outer Darkness. All of a sudden they never trained. Or they were only there for a couple of years. Or they never did the real secret family style. Or only the Lineage Holder got the good stuff. The problem is that in many many cases it's not only not true, it's childishly simple to disprove. It, quite understandably, ticks off the target of the slander and his friends and students. It also makes onlookers very skeptical about Silat in general and the de Thouars family in particular.

For the record, Steve Plinck really had been training at Serak long before most of the current crop of senior students had ever done Silat. It wasn't just, as they say now, "three or four years". Cliff Stewart had the big fancy title in Bukti Negara and was called a "traditional disciple of Serak" at least twelve years ago. You were there when he was the head of the board which tested my wife and I to be Guru Muda.

Yes if Guru Cliff Stewart was mediocre I can't see why the Pendekar would make him "Technical Advisor" to the art of Bukti Negara at one time many moons ago. Or why he would repeadedly get hired to work as an executive bodyguard. I have had people hire me multiple times based on my teacher's reputation and history alone in the field.

As for Guru Plinck, my teacher holds him in the HIGHEST Regard. And i can't see why if Guru Stevan is a "mess" why he was once publicy choosen to be the head of the lineage. I remember watching the pendekar say that on a video in Guru Cliff's house when I first started training with my Guru. And my Guru basically said to me....."Guru Stevan is truly THE BEST out of anyone who trained with the pendekar." after showing me video of him moving and also video of PDT publicly praising him as the next head honcho of SERAK.


Heck, no! I will say that Steve has excellent skills. He's a hell of a fighter, a real perfectionist as a technician and one of the best teachers of any sort whom I've met. But I will absolutely not say "Paul de Thouars? He's nothing compared to my guy!" That would be just plain wrong. It wouldn't do anything good for anyone. And it wouldnt' be true. When Steve says "My only hope would be to run around him in circles try to get in one lucky punch when he got tired" I take him at his word.

For the record my teacher has always praised pendekar PDT's ability as a martial artist and as a teacher.




It's great that people from Paul's cabang are getting out more, and I really do wish you guys well. I just want to make sure that the traditional swiftboating of everyone who isn't currently in favor doesn't happen again. People like Cliff Stewart and Steve Plinck really are what they say they are. The past is past and can't be changed or undone. And Guro Inosanto should require no defense whatsoever.


very true...



If it wasn't for Guru Dan Inosanto I would have never heard about Bukti Negara, Serak, and Silat.


Hopefully there will be a chance for actual sharing at somepoint.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[Pekir]

The Dutch-Indo martial arts have a not completely deserved poor reputation. It's not that we can't fight or don't know our stuff. When I say "I study Serak" I hold my head up high and say it loudly and clearly.

Some of it is prejudice. A lot of Indonesians have little love for the former colonizers and have a strong sense of national pride. It can come out in discussions about martial arts. "Ah, well, you see the Dutch never had to develop any skill. They were big and strong, so their Silat was kind of crude," or my favorite "You can't possibly understand. You see, REAL Silat is only practiced by the right sort of Muslim." It can be hard not to give the traditional response of "OK, mother****er. I'm going to give you your first free lesson in inferior martial arts." Really, really hard sometimes :yeleyes:



Good point Tod

I do agree that they deserve respect, on the other hand some of the previous generation of dutch-indo teachers haven't made it easy on themselves. Expressing and acting the way they have done. It's the same on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.

I also agree with the fact that there are a number of (younger?) Indonesians on the forums that claim a general negative attitude towards dutch-indo's (present day and in the colonial days) that in real life aren't that general at all. It does bring them to conclusions that the dutch-indo's could never have learned the true art because they hated each other and more of this stuff. What they seem to forget is that the colonial society was never (as with almost everything) that outspoken 'black and white'. You might even say that the dutch-indo's were the 'grey' part in society. Not Dutch, not Indonesian but with relatives on both sides. Since most of the 'dutch' pesilat in the colonial days were dutch-indo's you can take one thing for granted (I see most of them who are still alive a few times a year), they are in general not big :)

In my experience, as in my teachers our dutch-indo background never interferred with relations to Indonesians, we never met anything but respect and the same goes to everyone I know that went back. I contrary, just an example. My teacher onces demonstrated our style to a main pendekar of one of the bigger sundanese aliran. He was pleasently suprised to see an asli style which was hard to find in the old days. He didn't like our school name though (sounded Chinese) so offered to use his own aliran patch in the future. The latter sounds a little odd but his patch offer and appreciation for the style was well meant and with respect.

I guess respect is in the end all it comes down to, this doesn't mean one has to agree. Neither on history nor on the future.......

Hormat, Pekir

[tellner]

Word.

[Steve Perry]

Todd has nailed it down pretty good, and more kindly than I would have. We have nothing but respect for Pendekar Paul's martial abilities, nobody in Stevan Plinck's classes ever said otherwise, to my knowledge, not in the dozen or so years I've been training

Bukti was a stand-alone art ten years ago when Todd and I and a handful of others were studying it, and Guru Plinck was one of the few highest-ranked teachers. At the time, Bukti was still somewhat sketchy. What it has done since I cannot speak to, save for noticing that weapon work has become part of it.

Sera(k) was the mother, Bukti the daughter, and the child must have grown some in a decade.

The social skills of the de Thouars brothers are another matter, and the fervor with which some of their past and current players have attacked the earliest senior players of Sera(k) and Bukti isn't up for question -- pick a brother and listen to their students, and everybody not currently in the fold gets a lot of crap tossed in their direction. I stopped talking to the other branches because I really got tired of hearing about how we do silat-lite up in the Pacific Northwest, and yet every time one of their students would drop by to play, they didn't seem to have anything we didn't have ...

Ah, well. Nothing new under the sun ...

Steve

[Silatyogi]

Todd has nailed it down pretty good, and more kindly than I would have. We have nothing but respect for Pendekar Paul's martial abilities, nobody in Stevan Plinck's classes ever said otherwise, to my knowledge, not in the dozen or so years I've been training

Bukti was a stand-alone art ten years ago when Todd and I and a handful of others were studying it, and Guru Plinck was one of the few highest-ranked teachers. At the time, Bukti was still somewhat sketchy. What it has done since I cannot speak to, save for noticing that weapon work has become part of it.

Sera(k) was the mother, Bukti the daughter, and the child must have grown some in a decade.

The social skills of the de Thouars brothers are another matter, and the fervor with which some of their past and current players have attacked the earliest senior players of Sera(k) and Bukti isn't up for question -- pick a brother and listen to their students, and everybody not currently in the fold gets a lot of crap tossed in their direction. I stopped talking to the other branches because I really got tired of hearing about how we do silat-lite up in the Pacific Northwest, and yet every time one of their students would drop by to play, they didn't seem to have anything we didn't have ...

Ah, well. Nothing new under the sun ...

Steve

Very well put!

I have been one of those like you and Todd that have recieved messages such as my teacher doesn't know, Guru so and so doesn't know....but they can't rewrite history and expect actual history to be forgotten....my teacher went to see them and tells me they are still doing the same stuff they where doing when he was there says a lot to me......

I trust my teacher he has no reason to lie to me. If he felt I could benefit from going elsewhere he would say go for it. For example he has always told me to See Guru Plinck when they possibility is available.

As for Bukti...well PDT is GREAT at what he does and Bukti is a great art but still its a small piece of a much bigger pie (Serak).

I still don't see why Bukti needs to be trained if you are doing Serak. Sort of like learning to speak spanglish in a south American country when I should probably learn to just speak spanish if i really want to communicate in that environment. Maybe I missed something.

Santiago Dobles

[Steve Perry]

I still don't see why Bukti needs to be trained if you are doing Serak. Sort of like learning to speak spanglish in a south American country when I should probably learn to just speak spanish if i really want to communicate in that environment. Maybe I missed something.

Santiago Dobles

Bukti was originally designed as a filter, as I understand it. Pendekar Paul did not feel that he should teach Americans Sera(k). His first students were all either Dutch-Indo or Indonesians.

In my teacher's case, he learned Sera(k) before he learned Bukti. And while he doesn't claim it, from what I have heard elsewhere, he was at least partially responsible for some of what went into Bukti.

Paul thus came up with a stripped-down version of Sera(k) in Bukti that he felt was okay to give to American students, and if they demonstrated the willingnesss and ability to learn this, they thus proved they were worthy to be given a chance to learn the mother art.

(Women were not allowed to learn Sera(k), and Bukti was the only way they could get into it -- and even then, some of the senior teachers wouldn't teach women.)

This was how it was when I began training. You started in Bukti, and once you learned the system, you were allowed to advance to Sera(k).

When Guru Plinck and Pendekar Paul went their separate ways, Guru Plinck stopped teaching Bukti, for a couple of reasons, not the least of which was that he thought Sera was a superior art. And since his certification was no longer considered valid, any students he might train in Bukti Negara wouldn't qualify for rank in the organization anyhow.

That's a sad story, and it was Paul's and the organization's loss. They behaved badly, and it cost them one of their top players.

Steve

[pukulan student]

Gentlemen . is there no civil solution to hot headed finger tapping debates ,like this ? a tri -continetal serak- tagon showdown seems un likly any time soon .We have seen the bukti demos and everyone elses on the YOU TUBE ,.we heard all the siskelebrits .Tellner, Perry dont leave the public hanging anxiously in anticipation any longer .Show yer cards .let us all be the decider put something up . put up or shut up .YOU GOT SEARVED

[tellner]

Gentlemen . is there no civil solution to hot headed finger tapping debates ,like this ? a tri -continetal serak- tagon showdown seems un likly any time soon .We have seen the bukti demos and everyone elses on the YOU TUBE ,.we heard all the siskelebrits .Tellner, Perry dont leave the public hanging anxiously in anticipation any longer .Show yer cards .let us all be the decider put something up . put up or shut up .YOU GOT SEARVED

Eh? What the hell are you talking about? There's no need for us to "show our cards" because they've been face-up on the table for over a decade. I suppose we could take vids showing us throwing compliant partners around or cherry pick the best ones of us doing juru juru.

What would be the point? It wouldn't prove anything about who did what when to whom for how many cookies.

[pukulan student]

.still the arts are older than our words and are we not talking about a visual formula of motion and the measure of efficiency of that motion .that s all what I am talking about .

[tellner]

Well, the trolls are certainly hungry today. Let's toss them a scrap or two. I'd usually be a little more polite, but serious illness always makes me irritable. So there won't be much diplomacy or sugar coating.

We're talking about simple matters of public record and simple fact. What do videos on YouTube have to do with them? The thin end of nothing whittled down to a point. This isn't the sort of discussion where saying "Your Kung Fu is really very poor" in badly dubbed Engrish is at all relevant. And that's precisely what you're talking about. No matter what anyone says or does the True Believers will say "It is nothing compared to our superior skills in the Secret Mysteries. See? Their Plummetting Butterfly really looks like the Sideways Crab." Been there. Done that. Used the t-shirt to wipe grease off something years ago.

Perry, Santiago and I aren't cutting anyone down or hissing poison into anyone's ears. We just get ticked off when anonymous cowards and things which live under bridges and are frightened of billy goats do precisely that to people whom we value. I note that you personally are doing the same thing as a number of others. You show up out of nowhere solely to spread confusion and stir up things usually found in the middle levels of septic tanks. And, as usual, it's done behind a thin cloak of deniable anonymity. Nicknames are fine during friendly conversation. When people are getting slanderous it's only good form to grow a pair and take responsibility for what one says and one's real agenda. Duelling videos just doesn't signify.

[pukulan student]

personal attacks how refreshing just show us a clip because your art sounds great even prolific how hard is it to produce a clip. duelling clips is good .a picture says a thousand words a clip should say a million .thats all

[Steve Perry]

Gentlemen . is there no civil solution to hot headed finger tapping debates ,like this ? a tri -continetal serak- tagon showdown seems un likly any time soon .We have seen the bukti demos and everyone elses on the YOU TUBE ,.we heard all the siskelebrits .Tellner, Perry dont leave the public hanging anxiously in anticipation any longer .Show yer cards .let us all be the decider put something up . put up or shut up .YOU GOT SEARVED

Sure, there's a civil solution, it's easy: The Bukti people can stop bad-mouthing us and mind their own business, and anonymous trolls can refrain from spouting off when they have no clue about what they are talking.

Those would pretty stop the problem.

If the public is hanging anxiously, that's the public's worry. We're not out to gain converts, we just want to be left alone to do what we do without a bunch of loudmouths blowing hot air in our direction.

Which part of that don't you understand? You want me to use smaller words to explain it?

If you really think a video on YouTube is the way to determine the efficacy of a martial art, well, good luck on your training.

As for put up or shut up, neither words nor pictures convey the reality, so I'll make you a deal -- drop me a note, I'll send you directions to where I work out, and you can come by and play.

Doing the technique is not quite the same as watching it on a computer screen. Feeling it first-hand is a better way to understand it.

Your serve has been returned, bucko. Put up or shut up.

Steve

[pukulan student]

hi steve i am writing this with out reading your dicingly eloquent polite reply .cause i dont want silly emotion to enter into this .this isnt the view
it seems we got this thing back wards .fights dont lead to argument and message " boards dont hit back" todd mockingly pondered releasing a clip of a compliant interaction and said it would do no good i aggree .tell us thats not how you guys train .better still show us .
thanks

[gungfujoe]

tell us thats not how you guys train .better still show us .Steve offered to show you. He said "drop me a note, I'll send you directions to where I work out, and you can come by and play." Not being a Serak or Bukti practitioner, I've got no personal interest in this debate, but Steve and Todd seem to be right on with their assessment of this situation - you've posted four message on this forum. All of them have been in this thread, and all of them have had a challenging nature. None of them have been backed up with any identifying information. All the pieces of evidence point to you being an anonymous troll (Todd's use of "coward" is superfluous, since it applies to all anonymous trolls).

You've rudely demanded that the Serak folks show their cards, but while most of theirs are on the table, you have not shown anything yet. Who are you, and what is your stake in trying to incite a rivalry?

[Steve Perry]

hi steve i am writing this with out reading your dicingly eloquent polite reply .cause i dont want silly emotion to enter into this .this isnt the view
it seems we got this thing back wards .fights dont lead to argument and message " boards dont hit back" todd mockingly pondered releasing a clip of a compliant interaction and said it would do no good i aggree .tell us thats not how you guys train .better still show us .
thanks

If you didn't read what I had to say, then you can't enter into the discussion, sorry. And, you'll pardon me if I say I don't believe you, anyhow -- how did you know I did a posting? You sense it?

I will say that posting a vid of somebody climbing a mountain won't make you a mountain climber just because you watch it.

If you really want to see something of what we do, it's out there. Here's a link:

http://www.pencaksilat.com/tapes.html

And if you want to see Bukti Negara as Guru Plinck used to teach it, you can probably get a copy of his videotape of it on eBay. It was the first -- and as far as I know, the only -- Bukti vid made after Pendekar Paul's eight-tape Bukti series came out a dozen or so years ago.

If you are really interested, go find them.

And like I said, I'll be happy to show you in person. Come on by.

[pukulan student]

that reply i read .as for the one before, i saw your name on the lead page ,and i raced to the bottom of the second page . i know the ruthless cryptic word lashing you guys are capable of .i did see your teachers tape years and years ago .but shortly somewhere there after i read he was recovering, from a serious back injury ,during the making of that tape . so by that articles admission i then figuired it not to quite be a full fair representation for judging his style is this true?

[Steve Perry]

that reply i read .as for the one before, i saw your name on the lead page ,and i raced to the bottom of the second page . i know the ruthless cryptic word lashing you guys are capable of .i did see your teachers tape years and years ago .but shortly somewhere there after i read he was recovering, from a serious back injury ,during the making of that tape . so by that articles admission i then figuired it not to quite be a full fair representation for judging his style is this true?

Hahahahaa! Sure. You skipped it. Uh huh. Tell me another one.

Raced to the bottom of the second page? Please. You were any more bald-faced, you'd be a cue ball. Afraid what I said would shrivel you to a cinder right there in your chair? I could do that, I would be selling it and making a fortune. A true boon for keyboard warriors. You could use it, big-time.

You need to think before you speak. If you can, I mean.

If you've seen the two Sera tapes, then you know what it looks like when the senior guru demonstrating is pre-op, and then post-op from major back injuries and surgery.

Personally, I'd be thrilled if I could move that well, there's nothing embarrassing there even for a man who is a hundred percent. That he could do that with a ruptured disk is amazing. Even so he moved better than most players I've seen.

It is disengenous of you to ask for a YouTube posting if you have already seen what we do.

Disengenous. That's spelled T-R-O-L-L. And it starts to seep through.

Second -- and if see if you can follow my logic here -- with the teacher now in much better physical shape than he was when those tapes were made, is there any way you think he isn't better now than then? Because he is, so go back and look at what you saw before and then add some.

You want to talk, identify yourself. Otherwise, we're done here. You got nothin', not even a name.

Steve

[pukulan student]

wheres yer clip

[pukulan student]

ordinarily such an on slaught of concentrated cleverness would detour but it just perks couriousity more ,with every defensive word of reasonings why .its best for everyone not to see a clip . though mr perry it is a privilege to actualy wittness a true writer at work . as opposed to being chewed out by just anyone

[pukulan student]

maybe its true you dont understand
Whats that bird on your shirt mean .alow me to answer that brother, vision
and that cat need i go on .you have been searved . oh yeah, its on .take it

[Silatyogi]

Hahahahaa! Sure. You skipped it. Uh huh. Tell me another one.

Raced to the bottom of the second page? Please. You were any more bald-faced, you'd be a cue ball. Afraid what I said would shrivel you to a cinder right there in your chair? I could do that, I would be selling it and making a fortune. A true boon for keyboard warriors. You could use it, big-time.

You need to think before you speak. If you can, I mean.

If you've seen the two Sera tapes, then you know what it looks like when the senior guru demonstrating is pre-op, and then post-op from major back injuries and surgery.

Personally, I'd be thrilled if I could move that well, there's nothing embarrassing there even for a man who is a hundred percent. That he could do that with a ruptured disk is amazing. Even so he moved better than most players I've seen.

It is disengenous of you to ask for a YouTube posting if you have already seen what we do.

Disengenous. That's spelled T-R-O-L-L. And it starts to seep through.

Second -- and if see if you can follow my logic here -- with the teacher now in much better physical shape than he was when those tapes were made, is there any way you think he isn't better now than then? Because he is, so go back and look at what you saw before and then add some.

You want to talk, identify yourself. Otherwise, we're done here. You got nothin', not even a name.

Steve


Indeed Guru Plinck is TOP NOTCH on that Bukti Tape.

[Silatyogi]

maybe its true you dont understand
Whats that bird on your shirt mean .alow me to answer that brother, vision
and that cat need i go on .you have been searved . oh yeah, its on .take it


ah the bird in the "SERAK"

is a GARUDA

If you watch the movements of a lot of SERAK they come from a much older vedic style called Garuda.


Silek Tuo has a lot of answers all you have to do is dig a little deeper.

as for the cat...

well welcome to MACAN

[Silatyogi]

Gentlemen . is there no civil solution to hot headed finger tapping debates ,like this ? a tri -continetal serak- tagon showdown seems un likly any time soon .We have seen the bukti demos and everyone elses on the YOU TUBE ,.we heard all the siskelebrits .Tellner, Perry dont leave the public hanging anxiously in anticipation any longer .Show yer cards .let us all be the decider put something up . put up or shut up .YOU GOT SEARVED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wz-KTdwDSE

Here is a clip of a recent class. This is for information purpose only. If you know what to look for there is a lot there. I truly don't see the reason to post me kicking the crap out of my students or an attacker. It wont prove anything nor be good for anyones ego.

I know formyself that the Art works I have used it to defend myself and to protect others when I have worked as a bodyguard. And I know the Art has worked for my teacher in his years as an executive Bodygaurd.

I know Guru Plinck and his students can deffinetly use the ART effectively.


I know PDT and Danny H can also make the art work effectively no one has said they can't. I am sure Guru Plinck & Guru Stewart are happy and thankful of the time they had with PDT.

So PLEASE enough with crap talking already.

Enjoy the Art & Share. Many have it and as time goes on more will evolve it.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

steve and todd here it is your all too removed outsider speculations embarrass and infuriate .unfortunately you will never know what you are missing .if there is any sadness it should be us for you .and maybe it is better you stay away from ,you tube

[Silatyogi]

steve and todd here it is your all too removed outsider speculations embarrass and infuriate .unfortunately you will never know what you are missing .if there is any sadness it should be us for you .and maybe it is better you stay away from ,you tube


What exactly are they missing?

[pukulan student]

you can ask your good teacher this question

[tellner]

Ye gawds and little fishes. The material is out there if you want to see what we do. Numerous references have already been provided. If you'd like a better idea you have a standing invitation from Steve, and from me for that matter, to come by and give it a try. Hell, I'll extend the usual friendly part of the offer. You are welcome to the somewhat chaotic hospitality of my home if travelling is a hardship. You'll get to feel what we do. We'll get to feel what you do. If you really want to make a weekend of it Guru Plinck is having his annual workshop for his students on the weekend of June 23. We won't beat you up or make fun of you.

Now that is about the best I can do.

We've already established that you're a coward, a liar a troll and a ****-stirrer. Come clean about who you are, what you do and why you're going out of your way to be all of these. It's the bare minimum that a guy (or gal) with a pair would do. Otherwise, go back under the bridge and wait for the billy goats.

Let's go over the points one more time...

Some small minority of the people affiliated with the PDT Academy have taken it upon themselves to come out of nowhere and start slandering Paul's former seniors and anyone affiliated with them. They've generally been afraid to put their real names to what they do. And they haven't seen fit to add anything constructive to any of the discussions. It's all been repeating a bunch of lies in order to cut down people who didn't have any beef with them and were minding their own business combined with a healthy dose of self-promotion. When they find that most people don't care about them and aren't interested it gets worse. When someone finally takes notice and slaps them around a bit they get shriller and more challenging.

I really couldn't care less about who has what lineage or gets to wear the funny hats. I'm very happy with my teacher and know through about a decade and a half that he's got rare skills as a fighter, technician and teacher. Many of his colleagues, like Cliff Stewart qnd Guro Inosanto, are also excellent.

That's all I really care about. We're not interested in the factions in Ohio and LA jockeying for position in the PDT organization. It's only when they try to score political points inside their organization by sniping at our friends and teachers that we take as much notice as we would of a fly buzzing around the room. That sort of crap has put the reputation of Silat in general and Sera in particular smack in the middle of the porcelain circling the drain. This isn't the early 80s. People are a lot less easy to ******** about martial arts. Most of them have decided that Silat players are all infected with some sort of weird Indonesian brain rot precisely because of things like this. And do you know what? As long as the revisionist history, personality cults, senseless fights, purges and childishness go on they'll be absolutely right.

I'd be thrilled more than you can believe if the ****-stirrers stopped it, grew up and we could all be friends. That's why I made the offer above. And it's not one I extend to many people. Failing that I'd be much obliged if the trolls would at least shut up and go home for the good of Silat and what's left of Sera's reputation.

[tellner]

The emblem of Sera as practised by the de Thouars extended family has been the Garuda holding a pair of cabangs surmounted by a tiger. Garuda is a semi-divine bird out of Indian mythology and is associated with many martial arts lineages in South and Southeast Asia. The tiger is obvious. The cabang is a traditional Silat weapon.

When Guru Plinck and his teacher parted ways he wanted to have something that gave respect to the old symbolism but reflected reality. He and his students live in America and didn't grow up in the culture. So he adopted American animals - a Red Tail hawk and a cougar - and swapped one of the cabangs for a Bowie knife.

[Silatyogi]

you can ask your good teacher this question


???

Do you have ANYTHING positive to add to this forum? Or to You tube?

What exactly is your goal? That Steve & Todd & myself leave our teachers? and then do what???? go train with Tim Anderson in ohio???? Or Danny Huybrechts???? Or PDT?

So all silat aside how much time or experience have you had in "REAL" world situations (Bodyguarding, Self defense, etc)? More than Cliff Stewart? I highly DOUBT that.......

So PLEASE GET OVERYOURSELF.....

As for my good teacher I recall footage of him knocking some of the seniors around at the PDT academy sparring session with "ease". I don't think he is missing anything. Aside from the fact that he has spent years researching roots that make up your "Serak" (Cimande, seti hati, cikalong, Ular Sawa, Macan, Monyet, Harimau, Silek Tuo) so if anything it might be you who are missing out cause of the footage I have seen only Danny Huybrechts seems to know what he is doing and moves similar to PDT. The rest are not moving like PDT at all...Very few are actually using the Langkahs to their fullest potential.

As for Plinck well...my teacher holds him in the highest regards. THAT IS ENOUGH FOR ME. I have infact felt his energy once in a training session in my lifetime and it was enough for me to know he can use his art and he cn infact scrap if he had to.

GROW A SET OF COJONES and at least be a gentleman and present yourself.

What do you have to hide?

Maybe if I know who you are I could post footage I might have of you.....???


Please do yourself a favor and Grow Up.

If you presented yourself like the rest of us do with a greeting , adat hormat, and an actual name we might take you more seriously and also have a slight bit of respect for you.


Sincerely,

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

steve i will tell you right now we dont play like you guys do .we hurt each other in real time we're nuts. come down to the acedemy in disguise of course and youll see

[Silatyogi]

steve i will tell you right now we dont play like you guys do .we hurt each other in real time we're nuts. come down to the acedemy in disguise of course and youll see


Haha you have to be kidding me...

What is the point of that? So you can go to work the next day bruised and incapacitated? Save it for the street. You don't have to train like that to get good at your art or to be effective at Silat. I have used my art in real time and it works so slowy training has not taken away from th effectiveness of the art. A few sparring sessions here and there are good but to train like that all the time is just plain STUPID. And frankly bad for your health.......

Just go see an acccupuncturist I am sure they would tell you your liver is wacked and your running too much Yang and you can kiss your kidneys good by aswell..... That might explain the balding i have seen from some of the players over there.

Let me guess a lot has changed you guys now know ILMU?

Same 8 bukti jurus?

Same 8 bukti Sambuts?

Same Langkah Tiga, Sliwa, Sekurung?

SAME 18 SERAK JURUS?

SAME 18 SERAK SAMBUTS?

LANKAH - TIGA, SLIWA, SEKURUNG,PANTJAR,PENTJAK?????

Let me guess you do them all differently than what was done before when PLINCK WAS THERE? WHEN CLIFF WAS THERE?

The footage I see on you tube of you guys is nothing new from what you guys do nor what PDT teaches and has taught...

Again...Grow up and get over yourself, open up a bit and expand your horizons.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[Pekir]

wheres yer clip

Are you one of those students who learned his silat by watching tapes? Many of the 'old school' teachers didn't allow trainingsessions to be taped. Probably not so much for the sake of keeping secrets but to prevent fools from copying stuff they can't comprehend.

I'm just a bored sucker from across the ocean and not Sera related but you sound like those freaks who call random phonenumbers for their sexual relief, nowadays they have the internet. Just give those guys your name if you really have a message.....

Mine is Patrick from Amsterdam and no I don't have any tapes on offer.

[pukulan student]

steve and todd you owe all what you know to one man .not two and for you to talk even a little bit of sh t about any of that mans arts is unforgivable

[Silatyogi]

steve and todd you owe all what you know to one man .not two and for you to talk even a little bit of sh t about any of that mans arts is unforgivable


who is talking sheeit about any man's art? On the contrary, we have always said that we are all greatful of PDT's art, his teaching and his sharing of his art with gurus such as Plinck & Stewart.

Infact if you ask them (Guru Plinck or Guru Stewart, they are greatful they learned from PDT.)

So again why not say who your name is and why not answer the questions we have asked? Instead you are making judgements as if "Allah" himself will strike us down with lightening bolt for training with the Guru's that have come along our various paths. Who the fudge died and made you GOD???

What is your gripe? What is it you want?

Why not worry more about your training? Your jurus, your sambuts? Why not learn to become actual healers? Why not learn to show some maturity in the community of martial arts. What exactly are you doing that is positive in any way?

I was once told that a "Pendekar" Is a Protector a Guide and Healer.

Is that what you strive to be? Instead you want to see clips of whether or not we can or can not kick someones ass with what we do???

What About Rudy Terlinden do we owe him anything? Do you owe him anything? What about Dan Inosanto do we owe him anything do you owe him? If it wasn't for him no one would know who PDT is. Even to this day he speaks highly of PDT if you ask him.

What about the countless number of Silat masters in the world that are authentic both in holland & Indonesia, Malaysia, USA? Do we owe them anything? Do you owe them?

What about arts like Cimande? Seiti Hati, Cikalong, Ular Sawa Garuda, Monyet, Macan, Harimau, Silek Tuo? Do you owe them anything?

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[tellner]

Owe it all to one man, not two?

After I've parsed your bad grammar and worse spelling I think this is what you're trying to say:

"Paul de Thouars is the Sun Source of Serak. Everything good flows from him, so you should do whatever the people who are currently in his favor tell you to. If he says that your teacher is lower than whale dung that must be the Truth. That means that I'm right and you're wrong. If we say something didn't happen then it didn't happen even if it did."

Here's how it goes...

Paul de Thouars is a hell of a martial artist. I'm very glad that my teacher and so many others had the chance to learn from him. I'm even sorrier that his relationships with his former senior students went bad over the years. Nobody is taking anything away from his ability or the gratitude which is his due. Got it? Are the words small enough for you to understand? Good.

I've gotten almost all my Silat from Steve Plinck. He got most of his from Paul de Thouars. Paul learned from his uncles. They learned from Djut and from their father. Those men learned from others all the way back to Adam who got a few pointers from the Angel with the Sword. We all owe thanks and a proper amount of respect to many people. That doesn't mean that slave-like devotion, blind obedience and sycophantic praise are required or even appropriate. In fact, anyone who requires those things doesn't deserve them. That goes double or better for someone who says "I'm in his good graces at the moment, and you have to take whatever he says as gospel, so you have to do what I say. And you have to believe what I tell you."

What a load of pure steaming stinking horsecrap.

You've already lost on reason. The facts are against you. And you're trying to fight a duel of words with Steve Perry who is a professional. About the only thing you have left is the appeal to authority. And that one's like a sick cat. It doesn't wash. There really isn't anything else to say to you. So tell us who you are and why you're being such a dick or go away and leave the grownups alone.

[pukulan student]

what part dont you understand about unforgivable

[Steve Perry]

I say we let Mr. no-name troll starve.

Until he owns up to who he is -- and I suspect that will require a cold day in tropical Hades -- and thus why his opinion might be worth more than the proverbial bucket of warm spit, I'm not talking to him.

He's got nothin'. I'm not giving him anything to go with it.

Steve

[tellner]

I agree. Sorry, troll. Back under the bridge you go.

[pukulan student]

this isnt conversation this isnt internet banter this isnt a dialogue

[SundaWarrior]

pukulan student,

i hope one day you will understand the meaning of "Pencak Silat." whether you know it or not, Pencak Silat is about brotherhood and becoming family. there are too few Pencak players in the US to be fighting with eachother. i think that is why so many people over the past 20 years or so have been hesitant to train in Pencak Silat. i have heard good things about both Guru Steven Plinck and Guru Paul DeThoures and i would be honored to train with both of them. Every Silat player is different and has something to offer everyone. sorry for the lecture, just fealt like i needed to say that.

Santiago,

Can i get in touch with you by email. i have an upcoming seminar in Florida and would like to tell everyone about it but i am still fairly new to this forum so i am not able to post it just yet. More to come.

Salam,

Nick

[Monyet Nakal]

I'm very happy that the Bukti Negara/PDT crew has decided to take up a more public presence and it's great to see displays of their art. Is it necessary that the sad cliché of trolling internet forums comes out along with it? Why rehash old wounds? Is life really that boring? Aren't you happy and confident enough with your art? Why do you feel that you need to defend it, expecially by making such a childish ploy of attacking others?

"Pukulan Student" what you fail to understand here is that Todd and Steve have been using these forums for a long time and doing so by providing intelligent and well-thought out posts. Even though I may have personally disagreed with one or both of them from time to time, those disagreements have always been based on personal perceptions and opinions. To most of the regulars here their knowledge, experience and skills as well as those of their teacher are above repoach. They have no need to prove anything to anyone else reading this forum. What you are doing here is effectively walking into a town you've never been to, put on a ski-mask, walk into the local bar and start talking s**t about some of the regulars. If you think you are succeeding at cowing them, ridiculing them in public or even at making whatever points you think you have, look around the room and you will find that you are greeted by hard stares and quizzical looks of pity (and there's probably a couple of cats reaching for pool cues and empty bottles, but I guess those're the responses trolls like you feed off of...)

Nothing is free. Whereas they are known to us, you are not. While they have earned our respect, you have not. While they have little to prove to us, you have everything. All the eschewing of capitols and rampant use of random, ill-spaced punctuation is not going to make us think you are making anything other than a childhood playground tantrum. "Show me then!" "Prove it!" "...Because I said so!!!" *yawn*

Frankly we are all tired of it. I meant it when I said that I'm glad it was decided to make a more public presence of your school and style. You guys deserve to be proud of all the work you have done and it's good to give people a chance to see it. However Pukulan Student, your choice or targets and weak little attempts at bullying show, if you are a student of Bukti Negara, a strong lack of confidence in your art and give the impression that you are overcompensating for the fact that you really do wish that you were learning Sera(k/h) instead of being proud of your accomplishments. I noticed that you don't claim to be a member of any organization and I hope that is because you either are just a random troll trying to push some buttons or you are a member but are completely non-representative of the attitudes or your association and thus wish to not be identified by your fellows.

Crawl back into your hidey-hole and let the more positive elements of your system represent it. You are as transparent and ineffectual as you are boring.


edit: Oh, you are right about one thing though, there is a debt to one man that should be acknowledged. How about you respect your teacher enough to give the proper hormat to the founder of his parent art or do you think respect is only for those whose approval you desperately need and you can still get?

[Silatyogi]

pukulan student,

i hope one day you will understand the meaning of "Pencak Silat." whether you know it or not, Pencak Silat is about brotherhood and becoming family. there are too few Pencak players in the US to be fighting with eachother. i think that is why so many people over the past 20 years or so have been hesitant to train in Pencak Silat. i have heard good things about both Guru Steven Plinck and Guru Paul DeThoures and i would be honored to train with both of them. Every Silat player is different and has something to offer everyone. sorry for the lecture, just fealt like i needed to say that.

Santiago,

Can i get in touch with you by email. i have an upcoming seminar in Florida and would like to tell everyone about it but i am still fairly new to this forum so i am not able to post it just yet. More to come.

Salam,

Nick


Here you go
sdobles@gmail.com

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[Silatyogi]

what part dont you understand about unforgivable


Hey Bruce Almighty....Less trolling and more sharing please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_e1ztI7qzw

Hope you enjoy. And by the way my teacher & I are very much grateful for what PDT has contributed to the arts and to Silat in the US and abroad. Hopefully you will start being more of a gentleman and less of a douche and share with us your name and actual silat instead of "holier than thou Silat God Authority" B.S.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

steve and todd all hard ,past personal and political issues aside talking martial arts bukti negara specifically either be all for us or all against us like a mafia code .im not
talking anything about me personally you dont know me you probably never will
who cares

[pukulan student]

steve and todd its all about the art the is on the ceiling above us all .no reply needed

[Pekir]

steve and todd all hard ,past personal and political issues aside talking martial arts bukti negara specifically either be all for us or all against us like a mafia code .im not
talking anything about me personally you dont know me you probably never will
who cares

I guess you are right here for the first time....

[Gajah Silat]

Hey Bruce Almighty....Less trolling and more sharing please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_e1ztI7qzw

Peace

Santiago Dobles

I know nothing of Serak or BN or anything DT but it looks fine to me :) Similar, familiar but with a slightly different flavour to our 'belati' work.

However, I suggest any disputes could be sorted out with duelling banjos a la 'banjhalen' :love:

[doc_jude]

... What About Rudy Terlinden do we owe him anything? Do you owe him anything? ...

Peace

Santiago Dobles


HA!!! You beat me to it. At least Cliff did his own homework & found out the "T"-truth. Tell it on the mountain, brother!

- ^_^

[doc_jude]

steve and todd all hard ,past personal and political issues aside talking martial arts bukti negara specifically either be all for us or all against us like a mafia code .im not
talking anything about me personally you dont know me you probably never will
who cares

I can't believe that I would ever nominate someone for a Troll award, but this goon definitely has earned the "Bad Grammar Troll" award if you ask me. Jeez. But them, I am an English Linguistics major, so I'm sure that I'm a little harsh.

- ^_^

[Silatyogi]

I know nothing of Serak or BN or anything DT but it looks fine to me :) Similar, familiar but with a slightly different flavour to our 'belati' work.

However, I suggest any disputes could be sorted out with duelling banjos a la 'banjhalen' :love:


Thanks for the compliment.

BANJO DUAL WOULD BE GREAT!

[Monyet Nakal]

I can't believe that I would ever nominate someone for a Troll award, but this goon definitely has earned the "Bad Grammar Troll" award if you ask me. Jeez. But them, I am an English Linguistics major, so I'm sure that I'm a little harsh.

I hear what you are saying. If the actual content of his posts appeared better thought out, I would almost think the random, oddly spaced punctuation was actually a secret code or some such.

[Monyet Nakal]

...BANJO DUAL WOULD BE GREAT!


Hehe. Better start drilling those Jurus Mixolydian...

[Silatyogi]

steve and todd all hard ,past personal and political issues aside talking martial arts bukti negara specifically either be all for us or all against us like a mafia code .

Ah sounds like you are far away on your way to becoming an actual "Pendekar" in this lifetime.

Silat should be about Growth, Healing, Community & Family on all levels.

That "either you are with us or against us" B.S. reminds me of the "Necromongers" in the Riddick Chronicles.


"either be all for us or all against us like a mafia code" - that says to me you and who ever believes in that statement have still long way to go in their personal development as a martial artist in Silat. Sorry buddy the Universe doesn't flow that way. It flows to everyone no matter what.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[tellner]

BANJO DUAL WOULD BE GREAT!

Years ago I heard something frightening. It was called "Duelling Tubas". Yes, it was exactly what you're thinking. "Duelling Banjos" done on the tuba. :eek:

[doc_jude]

Years ago I heard something frightening. It was called "Duelling Tubas". Yes, it was exactly what you're thinking. "Duelling Banjos" done on the tuba. :eek:

All I'm getting is visions of dying elephants... :p

[Gajah Silat]

All I'm getting is visions of dying elephants... :p

Woah, it actually exists and is more like dying elephants than pachydermaly possible!

It has a horrible circus feel to it........


http://www.artistdirect.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+Search?select=Songs&searchtype=NormalSearch&start=1&searchstr=Dueling+Tubas

Scarier than clowns :eek:

[pukulan student]

,at least steve is a world class writer i have respect for writers as artist's .tellner ,not so much ,I just want to see ,the full respect paid ,to the man who threw ,inosanto on his head a few years after he got done sparring with bruce lee, ive seen the old poleroids .that' s putting lightning in a bottle .also, would you have still gone out seeking out the your teacher just to learn all his grand mother and martin s dad had to show him.which reminds me. martin 's dad ,was a great admirer and friend of Pendekar s .so theres still influence there .long ago at a seminar ,he was helping out .at one point ,he stared out at Pendekar frozen, motionless for a few minutes, then he shook his head, turned to look at us ,and all he said was "that man eats .sleeps and ***** silat "
i

[doc_jude]

,at least steve is a world class writer i have respect for writers as artist's .tellner ,not so much ,I just want to see ,the full respect paid ,to the man who threw ,inosanto on his head a few years after he got done sparring with bruce lee, ive seen the old poleroids .that' s putting lightning in a bottle .also, would you have still gone out seeking out the your teacher just to learn all his grand mother and martin s dad had to show him.which reminds me. martin 's dad ,was a great admirer and friend of Pendekar s .so theres still influence there .long ago at a seminar ,he was helping out .at one point ,he stared out at Pendekar frozen, motionless for a few minutes, then he shook his head, turned to look at us ,and all he said was "that man eats .sleeps and ***** silat "
i
Shut the hell up, flippin' troll.

You wanna know who ate, slept, and shat Silat?

Guru Besar Rudy Terlinden!

Paul owes everything that he is to Rudy. Who was everyone looking up back in the day for Silat? It sure as hell wasn't PDT. It was Rudy. Do your homework, check the old mags, back when they weren't just full of adverts. Rudy was the one respected by the MA world, not PDT. If you're in SoCal, then you're close to Rudy's senior students.
Go and train with them, check out their skills.
You'll see the Silat Real!

***This is fun, trolling the Troll!***

[doc_jude]

Oh, & if you wanna vid, come visit me, dude. I'll tape that and post it on YouTube. That'd be some good.

[doc_jude]

A quote from Guru Rudy. This is what I think of "Filter Arts":
IKF PRESENTS: How long does it take for the average person to become
efficient in these arts?

RT: About three to 3 1/2 years. In Indonesia, an attack could
come at any time. You have to get right to the "meat" of the art. There is
just no time for years of flowery discipline or hiding knowledge from students
until they "prove themselves worthy".
I teach the student at his or her own speed. If, for example, a student can
learn all 18 serah djurus in a year, he'll get them all in a year.

[pukulan student]

theres no issues with out siders if you dont like what i write turn the channel or i will stop writing

[pukulan student]

for one man to publicly say his art is even a little better than another mans art while out of striking range is wrong now everyone who does not agree with this answer then i will go

[Silatyogi]

,at least steve is a world class writer i have respect for writers as artist's.

That would explain your grammer????




.tellner ,not so much ,I just want to see ,the full respect paid ,to the man who threw ,inosanto on his head a few years after he got done sparring with bruce lee, ive seen the old poleroids .that' s putting lightning in a bottle .also, would you have still gone out seeking out the your teacher just to learn all his grand mother and martin s dad had to show him.which reminds me. martin 's dad ,was a great admirer and friend of Pendekar s .so theres still influence there .long ago at a seminar ,he was helping out .at one point ,he stared out at Pendekar frozen, motionless for a few minutes, then he shook his head, turned to look at us ,and all he said was "that man eats .sleeps and ***** silat "
i

Mister Nameless troll: BE A MAN and say your name and present yourself as a gentleman. What do you have to loose? What do you have to hide? No one has said PDT is not GREAT. On the contrary he is Great at what he does and thank God he taught others to be great aswell.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[Steve Perry]

Shut the hell up, flippin' troll.

You wanna know who ate, slept, and shat Silat?

Guru Besar Rudy Terlinden!

Paul owes everything that he is to Rudy. Who was everyone looking up back in the day for Silat? It sure as hell wasn't PDT. It was Rudy. Do your homework, check the old mags, back when they weren't just full of adverts. Rudy was the one respected by the MA world, not PDT. If you're in SoCal, then you're close to Rudy's senior students.


Really? I knew Paul and Rudy had trained together and taught each other stuff -- I have a copy of that Black Belt article written in the sixties, and pictures of the two of them together. But I wasn't away that everything Paul is was due to Rudy.

I corresponded for a while with one of Rudy's senior students, Guru Rudd, and he never made mention of this.

Larry Rudd and other of Rudy's students are pretty pissed at Paul because of how that relationship ended, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a large part of the problem didn't come from the de Thouars side of the table, given what I've seen over the years.

But I've seen old tapes of Paul from back in the day, and he certainly had technical skills aplenty. And as I understand it, he and Victor taught Rudy the Sera(k) djurus, which they certainly had. I assume that Rudy taught them things.

You have some material showing what that was? I'd love to see it.

Thanks.

Steve

[pukulan student]

steve you dont count remember you wished me into non exixitence

[Kiai Carita]

steve i will tell you right now we dont play like you guys do .we hurt each other in real time we're nuts. come down to the acedemy in disguise of course and youll see

Warm salaams everyone,

Pukulan Student,

I write this from Jawa.

I have never seen any silat school or training group in Indonesia where students hurt eachother in real time and are proud of being real nuts. That you do that makes me seriousely worried that someone is using silat to vent their personal frustrations.

From your opinions, I believe you might want to take a deeper, wider look into silat. Hurting eachother in class is the dumbest training to do. If your teacher teaches that then he must have got hit around the head too much when he was studying.

Why not come to Indonesia or Malaysia and see Real Silat in the real context so that you have a better understanding of silat in the USA. And if you came from Indonesia and wanted to train silat in the US and had surveyed the information on the internet, you would seek out Guru Plink before you PDT. Why?

On the internet, Guru Plink comes across as a real Guru and his students show a universal ease with adat and hormat. His website shows sound knowledge of silat, and even has some concepts newly identified like "angle and leverage", which shows that he digested all his learning well.

On the other hand PDT comes across as a real Jago. His students and admirers have grammar that wouldn't pass the year 9 English test in the village school here. He fights with his brothers, proving to the world that they don't know adat and have no hormat. This is why Guru Plink's students come across a a school, while PDT's students come across either as a lone nutter or as a mob of nutters.

From watching you on this thread it is clear that your school has less quality than Telner's. I suggest that you move to Telner's school, if they would accept you. Now I don't say this lightly, and I am in no way affiliated to Telner's school. I don't know Telner except from internet forums, but it is clear that he has more silat in him than you. Honestly. Move.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[tellner]

I'm definitely not going to rehash the falling out between Rudy Terlinden (ztl) and Paul de Thouars. There's no point. Nobody here was there. The historical record such as it is indicates that both trained together, learned things from one another (some of the old Dutch articles say Rudy was the teacher, others from the same time say Paul) and were close at one time. It's a shame that their friendship ended acrimoniously. We are not required to snipe at each other over what happened between these men decades ago.

The idea that either owed "everything" he is or was to the other is ludicrous.

[pukulan student]

cool

[pukulan student]

if it was anyone else i would not have responded, i was affraid you were thowing
the name around a little too losley, its kinda sacred ,Im sure you train good, slower trainiing develope's perfection .we train till we're a little banged up then go slow and heal and then do it again .constant state of healing is the way i like to look at it

peace

[tellner]

Well, he's not currently trolling (I think). This needs to be encouraged...

If you're constantly banged up your body isn't going to have a chance to heal. If you keep getting hurt the damage will accumulate. This is not a problem at twenty. It's annoying at thirty and "Why the hell did I do that to myself?" at forty. What makes you stronger is exertion followed by enough rest so that you can recuperate, undo the damage and lay down a bit of extra bone, muscle or whatever.

Look at Thai boxers or MMA competitors. They are professional athletes who need to be at their best. There are hard workouts, but they don't spend practice time sparring full out or taking shin kicks to the thighs. They hit pads, do controlled sparring and push moderately and carefully without actually damaging themselves let alone doing it chronically.

It's the same thing with stretching. If you constantly overstretch so that there are always little tears in the tendons and ligaments you won't get more effective flexibility. You will end up with bigger tears and visits to the orthopedist. The key here is moderation.

Another piece of the puzzle is the healing work which has traditionally accompanied the training. There's a reason Cimande players slather themselves with the eye of newt, toe of frog stuff. It helps repair the damage just a little faster than your body would normally do it. This allows you to do insane things like banging forearms with old pendekars and heal fast enough to come back for more. The Chinese warn against Iron Palm training without the correct medicines and massage.

You have to be sure that you're building up faster than you're tearing down. It's too easy to cross the line without realizing it. As my first Silat teacher says "Your ass is a finite resource."

[Steve Perry]

Well, he's not currently trolling (I think). This needs to be encouraged...
"

"Not spitting bile at the moment" is not the same as "not trolling ..."

I still don't see either a name or any sense of decorum. Leave him in the cornfield.

Steve

[Monyet Nakal]

"Not spitting bile at the moment" is not the same as "not trolling ..."


"It's a trap... Get an axe."

[tellner]

Fair enough.

[pukulan student]

hey you trolls are on my sight again,cant you go play on the multitudes of other sights this is bukti negaras first sight and i intend to protect it honor is worth something i was offended not you """outsider""", though i dig what you say so you can stay and please elaborate

[pukulan student]

todd accidents happen and you have to go on

[Silatyogi]

hey you trolls are on my sight again,cant you go play on the multitudes of other sights this is bukti negaras first sight and i intend to protect it honor is worth something i was offended not you """outsider""", though i dig what you say so you can stay and please elaborate

MAP is bukti's site? or Bukti's Sight? Vision???

What do you want to express nameless warrior?

You are still a troll until you present yourself as a gentlemen and say your name and also begin to be positive instead of a douche.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

please santiago its not how much you know its how much you can understand those are formulas you speak of tell us what do they mean to you you been served

[pukulan student]

put it this way suppose you wanted to get really? really??????? smart im talking hypothetical now no offence so you went to steven hawkings school of quantum physics given a quantum mechanic text book and told, you have all the material
same thing now explain what those combonations are to those locks you posses,

[pukulan student]

when you absorb the matterial and you are the matterial .i would ask you one question santiago how is you timing acording to your under standing

[Silatyogi]

please santiago its not how much you know its how much you can understand those are formulas you speak of tell us what do they mean to you you been served


Ok Troll Unless you give me your name you will be known as TROLL...

As for formulas....

When did I speak of Formulas? I didn't use that word in this thread...so what are you talking about?

Formulas in Silat?




Well...Here is a formula for you in social skills.

Hi my name is ...............

[Silatyogi]

when you absorb the matterial and you are the matterial .i would ask you one question santiago how is you timing acording to your under standing


When you absorb the essence you become the essence yes you are correct.

Is that what you do?

Do you breath in your Instructor's Chi and Mix it with your own to get the essence of how he operates?

Have you actually used your art to protect someone? to defend your life in actual threat? Or to defend a paying customer? Have you used your art against multiple opponents ( I am not talking about training partners, I am talking about actual encounters)????

Well I have and so has my Guru.

That should tell you about my timing.

If your shoulders are in the right place, your jurus are well trained and you know how to use your bases & your Langkahs your timing will be very good.

Peace to you Nameless TROLL

Sincerely,

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

look dummy its like someone gave you a volume of books and instead of reading one book at a time and understanding the contents completly you have all the books spilled out in front of you on page one trying to read them all at the same time
just concentrate , day and night on my last question .how is your timing according to your under standing .come back in ten years and awswer it if you can .when you know where your center is and every thing you know .you can activate your matterial in two seconds with out thinking .and two seconds is a long time .who thinks im wrong about this
this is above your head .its like mathmatics to learn that you must start with addition
then move on to substraction. see ya in ten years buddy

[pukulan student]

you speak of multiples ,but not in training? only on the street? let me suggest you have two well trained students, of your refined caliber? in your next class attack at the same time ..with full angry force ..with say thai boxing kicks and elbows .after they revive you ,next have one of them hold a marker and do the same thing the marker sybolizing the blade of course .tell us as your imaginary life flashes before your eyes .how well you do peace

[ICT]

you speak of multiples ,but not in training? only on the street? let me suggest you have two well trained students, of your refined caliber? in your next class attack at the same time ..with full angry force ..with say thai boxing kicks and elbows .after they revive you ,next have one of them hold a marker and do the same thing the marker sybolizing the blade of course .tell us as your imaginary life flashes before your eyes .how well you do peace


Hello,

Let me tell you something about STREET REAL vs. SCHOOL REAL!

First in case you don't know me, let me say that I have 18 years in Security, Corrections & Law Enforcement, plus growing up in Tampa & Miami around drug dealers and street gangs.

No matter how real you TRY to make the scenario in your school, IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME as your life on the line in the streets! Unless in your school you actually try to KILL each other there is no comparison, period!

All we can do is simulate the realist possible scenario and hope our training works when we need it for STREET REAL when our lives depend on it.

As far as training hard, yea I agree with that and over the past 31 years of training I have had cracked ribs, dislocated shoulders, broken nose, sprained ankles, broken hand and many, many bruises and contusions BUT NONE OF IT WAS ON PURPOSE FROM A FELLOW STUDENT, THEY WERE ALL ACCIDENTS! I did not go to training looking or wanting to get beat up or hurt, it just happened sometimes due to the nature of the art and/or training.

I think you should try and let your ego go and listen to some of the people on here! We don't know you so were not your enemy! Listen and learn from those who have been around for a long time regardless of the fact that you don't agree because nothing is as Black & White as some claim, Listen anyway you still may learn something.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[pukulan student]

aggree you have the floor tell us more

[pukulan student]

would you agree ,that if having your friends jump you in calm cool class setting is hard
in it self and being really attacked by multiples is incomparibly harder

[doc_jude]

I think you should try and let your ego go and listen to some of the people on here! We don't know you so were not your enemy!

NO!!! You're wrong! You must understand that anyone that is not a devoted PDT chestnut-hugger IS THE ENEMY!

:p

BTW, does anyone have scans of any old Silat articles? I'm getting ready to put up everything that I can get ahold of of Rudy Terlinden, which is alot, so it may take awhile. Let's consolidate and make it a sticky if we can.

[Silatyogi]

you speak of multiples ,but not in training? only on the street? let me suggest you have two well trained students, of your refined caliber? in your next class attack at the same time ..with full angry force ..with say thai boxing kicks and elbows .after they revive you ,next have one of them hold a marker and do the same thing the marker sybolizing the blade of course .tell us as your imaginary life flashes before your eyes .how well you do peace


Well for your information we train with more than one attacker in my class. And a lot of the actual Silek Tuo & Cimande Drils we do are infact designed for more than one attaker. I have seen the way most of you move in Bukti. With the exception of PDT or Danny H. NONE are using the Langkahs to their fullest so lets not go there.

We do actually try to deal with blades in a real manner. What ever clip you may see of me is only a small tip of the iceberg of what I do and what my teacher does.

I have done what you say with an actual 2" spyderco blade that has been filed down so its not sharp edge but flat and still pointy and still MORE DANGEROUS than a magik marker.

As for the street I have been in situations as a bodyguard or in security where there are over 30 people fighting at once and 400 people fighting at once (concert gone BAD) and i have been in scenarios where there are few fighting. The point of the matter is I survived all of them without suffering any damage except pepper spray in the face even with eyes unavailable I still hit and damaged and not got hit and was able to survive situation.

So again your "Class Room" setting theory is B.S. The street never operates like that. And again how much experience have you had in the street with such activity?

Also a crazed upset drunk or drugged fool who knows nothing about MA and who has totally lost his senses is sometimes more dangerous cause a trained martial artist usually will have "Set" ways of doing or operating and also is not trying to actually Hurt or Kill you.

So Please TROLL enough with the Ego and the lack of nutsack comments.

This is not a SILAT COMMUNITY V.S. Bukti.

Bukti negara is a great art...move on..become a friend and a respectable person in the silat community instead of a douchebag.

Santiago Dobles

[Monyet Nakal]

You cats are all making some very good points, but sadly they will fall on very deaf ears. Pukulan Student is not here to learn anything or better him/herself. They are only here solely to challenge. Ergo anything you post, no matter how informative, will simply be in the spirit of "for the record" and possibly for the understanding of the rest of our community. I appreciate your efforts but Pukulan Student is already fully complete in his/her martial arts training and has nothing more to learn and is thus on far too high a level to be bothered with anything we have to say. We should all bow down in umbrage to the Silat Deity that has deened to grace us with their divine presence.


However, in the spirit of "for the record" let me say that I do not know of any nor could I imagine any Serak branch or Serak expression that does not include some version of pukul petang and other multiple opponent sparring in their regular training. Some people simply assume far too much about what happens behind other people's door.

Personally at my school we have all the students line up against a wall while we bring in a busload of angry Marines who open fire on the students with M16s and then send in rottweillers before charging in with 10" trench knives. Well, at least that's what we do with the "children's class..."

[Silatyogi]

look dummy its like someone gave you a volume of books and instead of reading one book at a time and understanding the contents completly you have all the books spilled out in front of you on page one trying to read them all at the same time
just concentrate , day and night on my last question .how is your timing according to your under standing .come back in ten years and awswer it if you can .when you know where your center is and every thing you know .you can activate your matterial in two seconds with out thinking .and two seconds is a long time .who thinks im wrong about this
this is above your head .its like mathmatics to learn that you must start with addition
then move on to substraction. see ya in ten years buddy


Who you calling a dummy?

I know where my center is and I know how to manpulate someone elses. I have over 15 years of training Nei Gung, Yoga & Qi Gong. Serak is not the 1st art I have trainied where the center was needed to be understood or developed or activated. SERAK is not only answer to all INTERNAL MARTIAL ART Principles. It has a lot of them but not all of them.

My teacher yes gave me a lot of information. Why cause he thought I could handle it. It wasn't all given at once. However it has been intensive through out the last 4 years. He did so cause I had gone through years of learning the stuff incorrectly with other teachers ( I will not name names out of respect). Those teachers did not know exactly what they where teaching.

People learn at different paces. no 2 people are the same.

Sounds to me like you are upset that I have pieces that may have taken you YEARS to develop where for me it took maybe 2 at the most.

Timing:

you can be stripped down to 2 energies or temperments

Yang = One acts before anything occurs. One asserts. One is the director." the bull"

Yin = One reacts and absorbs and gives back, dissolves, etc "the bull fighter"

Things to keep in mind for timing:

1)how they breath, when they blink & How you breath & use your center
2)sensing intention
3)Shoulder position
4)proper use of Langkah
5) Proper use of jurus
6)proper use of what the chinese call "Fa Jing" and where to hit.
7)Understanding when their center moves and immobilizing it either by hitting or off balancing or sticking to it.
8)non telegraphing yourself

the list could go on.

As for the center's energies:

1) dissolve the center
2) move the center
3) fortify the center

Again everyone here has given you time, energy and attention yet you still come from a place of ego & lack of respect for others....

So lets start again shall we?

Hi my name is Santiago Dobles, what is yours?

I wish you the best in your training, in your Life, in your timing, and in your healing.

May you be the best at your Silat. God bless

Sincerely,

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

monyet .my attitude towards santiago ,in no way reflects my attitude towards the community, he"s like todd light. i just want him to realise he has a long journey in this art .and the one at the top of our branch ,said his teacher gave him one jurus one year.YOU can't imagine my frustration with this guy .if you would be kind enough to
share some of your arts branch of the word .i am literally not aloud to say please no questions on this i dont make the rules but its its a small sacrifice

[pukulan student]

Okay Santiago You Got A Kick Ass Art I Get It

[pukulan student]

to everyone. peace including you santiago

[pukulan student]

martial art is internal ,understanding changes the art.

[Silatyogi]

my attitude towards santiago ,in no way reflects my attitude towards the community, he"s like todd light. i just want him to realise he has a long journey in this art .and the one at the top of our branch ,said his teacher gave him one jurus one year.YOU can't imagine my frustration with this guy .



With all due respect "Pukulan Student" & Peace to you aswell.

What is your frustration with me? What have I done to you on a personal level? What has my teacher done to you on a personal level?
And who told you I got 1 jurus one year? PDT? Danny H? Where did that info come from?

How do they know what my training was like and when it occured and how it occured?

Last I checked my training footage with Guru Cliff I recieved 3 jurus at a time from each visit with my teacher untill I understood them interms of mechanics, application, understanding of locks, weapon, etc then I would recieve 3 more untill I completed my 18 jurus. It was not given in one day or one year. We began with Bukti jurus but then my teacher said not to do Bukti Anymore just focus on Serak and Kilat Jurus, Silek Tuo ground positions. I went at the pace my teacher wanted me to progress. Things have evolved from there with the understanding I have recieved from our Cimande & Silek Tuo training and I still discover new things from the Serak jurus almost everyday. This is why what we do is not just "Serak". It is Kilat.

Langkah was also taught to me one at a time until they where understood interms of strategies, throws, target selection, locks, transfer of energy, shoulder position etc.

Nothing was given overnight. It was given in pieces so I could digest. I am still learning from my Guru.

Yes it's a life long process to Master such an Art. I am not a Master at it nor claim to be. I study my art everyday. And I have used it when needed and it has served me well. I am thankful for my teacher's insight and for all his teachers influences aswell including PDT.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

[pukulan student]

hi santiago , the principle's works by any name ,that said. what I like about it ,is you substitute angle for strengh ,if you get that right. then the opponent ,traing partner is weightless ,you know its like walking thru air .I guess my teloscope has turned more into a magnifying glass .I just look for that weightlessness .i ask is this technique heavy or light if it was heavy i did something wrong .the hardest part for me is the relaxed sensivity .to guide the force re direct the person with no effort with no effort

[pukulan student]

what i met by timing is the strugle with the motions to make them synchronize in sequence so everything come's together on one beat. sweep or whatever.like its under standing the time link between body demensions .its all very mathmatical and musical

[Silatyogi]

what i met by timing is the strugle with the motions to make them synchronize in sequence so everything come's together on one beat. sweep or whatever.like its under standing the time link between body demensions .its all very mathmatical and musical


You meant one's personal timing with motions etc. Ok I get what you where asking. I thought you meant your timing in dealing with an attacker. My timing is not bad. I am sure it has room for improvement like everything else. I usually do that sort of thing by doing a combative Kembangan (Shadow Boxing) and moving excruciatingly slow like Tai Chi with everything in proper alignment and with total awareness of center and upper & lower bases while imagining various attacks coming from all over. I have found that to move fast and clean one must go VERY slow. Also slower training is better for your lymphatic system, and strengthens your neurolgical connections to your brain & muscles. So when they do fire up fast they move morein sync and more unified.


Peace
Santiago Dobles

[Silatyogi]

hi santiago , the principle's works by any name ,that said. what I like about it ,is you substitute angle for strengh ,if you get that right. then the opponent ,traing partner is weightless ,you know its like walking thru air .I guess my teloscope has turned more into a magnifying glass .I just look for that weightlessness .i ask is this technique heavy or light if it was heavy i did something wrong .the hardest part for me is the relaxed sensivity .to guide the force re direct the person with no effort with no effort

Agree,

i look for relaxation in my movements even if they are supposed to be forceful to my attacker.

I try to strive to use less that 4 ounces of pressure to off balance or to drop a guy. As you know its not always easy but it gets better as time moves on and with more study. I use complimentary angles always to help me achieve that smoothness based on what ever langkah i am on. My technique is light not heavy. However I do make sure I am rooted as i move or take someone down. Rooting is very important to generate power.

peace

Santiago

[pukulan student]

yes ,i couldn't have said it better ,Its like if you reach high enough the art will come to you ,I see this art as being invisable thats why i need a magnifying glass

[pukulan student]

softer than sleep all things in order stored ,a haunt of ancient peace

[pukulan student]

i suggest this now be a sight for peace and healing

[doc_jude]

Jesus. :rolleyes:

Santi, do you actually speak this guys language or what?

You know where a great site would be for your peace & healing? PM.

[pukulan student]

the essence of war is violence ,moderation in war is imbicility

[doc_jude]

“A-ha! Use caution, wee ones! Never let a strange squirrel whip an enormous sparrow and then pull you onto his lap. He’s probably a murderous chicken.” – Wise Wolf

[gungfujoe]

You know where a great site would be for your peace & healing? PM.Oh, don't say that... The troll would have to post nine more posts of his rubbish before he's allowed to send or receive PM's.

I still can't believe that these three people have fed the troll enough that he's actually posted 41 items of drivel already - all of which are here in this thread. No good ever comes of feeding the trolls. The more they're fed, the more they excrete onto the message board.

[pukulan student]

good logic

[Gajah Silat]

Maybe time to unleash the goats :rolleyes:

Trip...trap...trip..........

[pukulan student]

look, the art is its own ancient language that words only distort .maybe the only thing
to discuss is principles. minus style politic.we are all awesome, we are all silat
people or we have some interest in this unique art

[slipthejab]

christ what boatload of mumbo jumbo. :rolleyes:

[pukulan student]

lets separate the mumbo from the jumbo .work with me .what don't you get about the futility of silat feuding

[Gajah Silat]

Jumbo as in elephants, or perhaps those jumbo roll-ups?

I'm half expecting Cheech & Chong to turn up in this thread :rolleyes:

[Narrue]

Maybe time to unleash the goats :rolleyes:

Trip...trap...trip..........




Please dont unleash the Silat goats, their just too powerfull :D

[doc_jude]

yeah, them Menangkabu goats kick hard!

[pukulan student]

Let me just say ,I dig this silat sight .you cat's, are the coolest ,all of you.
your good ,over sight and moderation has made this sight ,outa sight ,nothin
like it .thanks a million.

[doc_jude]

Okay. Bye. Don't let the door knob hit you...

[slipthejab]

Let me just say ,I dig this silat sight .you cat's, are the coolest ,all of you.
your good ,over sight and moderation has made this sight ,outa sight ,nothin
like it .thanks a million.

Silat from the beat generation. :p