what is Kung fu?

[Shortfuse]

what is kung fu in general? what makes it differantthan the other styples? what are its benefits and disadvantages? what is the style of attacking ( like tae kwon doe-kicking, boxing- punching, karate- solid,judo-grappling and so on). i think i am going to take it but im not so sure which style to choose. i know there are many differant types of kung fu so also what are the answers for the same questions for shaolin? and can you tell me the differant techiniques (hook kick, blade kick,etc.)

[David]

What is kung fu in general?

It is sophisicated methods of stopping fights. It is the long way round to martial skill - taking in many aspects and taking them to high degrees of refinement.

Go try it.

Rgds,
David

[Van_the_cookie_man]

Kung Fu is Chinese martial arts (correct me if im wrong). There are many different types out there.

[hwarang]

kung fu is what you can buy at your local chinese takeaway

[Van_the_cookie_man]

kung fu is what you can buy at your local chinese takeaway -cheap, smelly, and dirty

wow that actually duz apply to my old dojo.

[SSJ1_Katrina]

dojo? dojo?

hmmm me-thinks a karate practicioner is about.....

[Van_the_cookie_man]

studio? i wuz never told wut to call the place. just picked up wut i heard from ppl.

[Hakko-Ryu]

i've been referring this book a lot! but yea...read Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record: The way of Kungfu"...it'll supply you with good authentic info.

[YODA]

As already mentioned - Kung Fu is a generic term for Chinese Martial Arts. There are MANY systems with a huge variety of methods & emphasis.

[Syd]

Chinese = Kwoon

Japanese = Dojo

The West = Training hall

Syd's = Backyard and Shed

[YODA]

Good Syd - and which is the "Traditional way?"

My guess is the last one.

[Syd]

Most people trained at home in the old days I would imagine, and personally I prefer it. By the way I was actually poking fun at myself (backyard/Shed) since I live in the seclusion of the Mountains and don't have the opportunity to get to my regular training hall anymore. I wasn't trying to imply a backyard was any better than anything else. It's not where you train, but rather how.

[Sub zero]

I would agree with what most other people people had said. BUt one other definition i would like to add is that all styles of Kunguf have an internal aspect and a physical aspect to them. In Kung Fu, (a large term for alot of the "hard or "external" styles there is alot more emphisis put on the physical). That's one definition i've read in a few places.

even systems that where every move has direct combat aplications the internal is still their.

Othocurse i can't be sure of this as i haven't practiced and never will practice or ecen see every type of Kung fu.

[Shortfuse]

whats shaolin all about?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
whats shaolin all about?

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6251

[shoushuer]

read this http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=1004

[RubyMoon]

There are thousands of varieties of kung fu with many differences between them. Here are some basic similarities *usually* found in kung fu.

Kung fu is Chinese. Every style of kung fu can be traced back to the Shaolin temple of China. This can, in fact, also be said of almost every other eastern martial art, but in the case of kung fu the art has remained exclusively Chinese until only recently (in the past 50 years or so).

Kung fu is both "hard" and "soft", external and internal. In most styles I'm familiar with, kung fu training begins externally and gradually incorporates more and more internal training. Some styles reverse this process, beginning with internal and gradually shifting to external. The end result in either case, however, is a complimentary blend of both.

Kung fu is a philosophy as much as a martial art. The words "kung fu" mean, roughly, "hard work." This art originally came from India to the Shaolin monestary in China as an excercise program for the weak and frail monks. The monks incorporated it into their spiritual pursuits as a way to create harmony between body, mind, and spirit. It took about a century for this to evolve into what we now refer to as kung fu.

Kung fu tends to be more circular and flowing than other arts. This isn't universally true--some kung fu, especially southern styles, are more linear than others. Most of the time, however, this generalization holds true.

Hope that helps.

[Sub zero]

Rubymoon said:
Kung fu is Chinese. Every style of kung fu can be traced back to the Shaolin temple of China. This can, in fact, also be said of almost every other eastern martial art, but in the case of kung fu the art has remained exclusively Chinese until only recently (in the past 50 years or so).


I was under the understanding that their were many style of CMA and not just internall styles around long before shaolin. I think that yes shaolin became a center for CMA and MA.and if kung fu was only taught in china how did it spread form shaolin?

Many masters of CMA went to all sorts of countries (including japan). Hence the praying mantis form taught in JJ (or my style) to this day.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
Every style of kung fu can be traced back to the Shaolin temple of China. This art originally came from India to the Shaolin monestary in China as an excercise program for the weak and frail monks.

Not Every style of 'Kung Fu' traces its origins back to the Shaolin temple, many in fact don't.

There were many systems of Fighting Arts common amongst the Chinese people prior to the Shaolin Temple. Chin Na and Shuai Jiao have many mentionings in the written Annals from approx 500 BCE.

IMO some of the basic origins of Shaolin systems Might have come from India and Might have been introduced by Bodhidooddad, but then again maybe not.

Considering that China has a long recorded history and that they were at many times in that History, aggressively expansionist in their aspirations, I find it hard to believe that all their Fighting arts came from one source and so late in the development of their culture too (Shaolin).

What were the warring Chinese Armies of the pre-shaolin period using to fight their way all across the Orient with? Hack Em and Bash em style? Me thinks NOT.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Not Every style of 'Kung Fu' traces its origins back to the Shaolin temple, many in fact don't.
The original question was, "What is kung fu?" There may be many Chinese martial arts that did not originate in the Shaolin temple, but these are not kung fu. Kung fu is more than a martial tradition, it is also a spiritual pursuit, a path to perfection.

I would not consider a martial art kung fu just because it is from China. I think of kung fu as the martial art specifically orginating from the Shaolin monestary. I've never read anything to dispute this.

I never claimed every Chinese martial art originated from the Shaolin temple, only kung fu. There's a big difference between saying that all kung fu must be Chinese martial arts, and saying all Chinese martial arts must be kung fu. The first is true, the second is not.

[Sub zero]

I agree that all MA from china should not be called kung fu. BUt in my experince any "external" or "hard" fighting system that is not shuai jiao or chi na is ussually referd to as kung fu.

I think that alot of influence especially on all the style s that cam out of shoalin were influced by Da Mo Bodirahma or whateveryou want to call him.

But ther are some styles who claim to be "Kung Fu"who's history streaches back further than shaolin. I'l try and find one that i read a small article about ages age. Gonna be hard. can;t remebr it's name.

Jaut a difference in terminology ruby.

[af_sting]

The question "what is Kung Fu?" in the literal sense is simple to answer. Kung fu is roughly translated as hard work or skill. You may develop kung fu in basket weaving or cooking. Of course in the western world, kung fu loosely refers to the Chinese martial arts, for which there is no all encompassing definition.

Rather then get a million answers to a very abstract question, why not tell us what systems you have available to you (local schools). If you are a complete novice to the martial arts then I would not suggest learning by correspondence (ie Wing Lam) but that is also an option.

-Ray

[Shortfuse]

i have Northern and Southern Shaolin Kung Fu, Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Gua, Hua Shan Pai Chi Gong, Chin Na, Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, Praying Mantis, Monkey Style, Hsing-Yee and Liu Ho Ba Fa, eagle claw.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
The original question was, "What is kung fu?" There may be many Chinese martial arts that did not originate in the Shaolin temple, but these are not kung fu.

Who says that other Chinese Fighting Arts are Not 'Kung Fu'?
Where is this Boardroom of Taoist and Buddhist Hermits that sits in judgement and says whether something is 'Kung Fu or not'. Please add the prefix IMO when you make such a grand sweeping statement.

[i]Kung fu is more than a martial tradition, it is also a spiritual pursuit, a path to perfection.


That's Mythologising and a well worked get out clause. Kung Fu for want of better words is/ are Fighting systems, first and foremost, the rest is just Philosophical Conjecture and belongs on the Philosophy Forum with the teachings of Kwai Chang Kane, grasshopper.

Whilst I agree that Martial Art practice and devotion can indeed be a path to Perfection, Martial Arts are NOT Religions or indeed particularly Spiritual.

Although some groups have used certain aspects of Martial Practice to achieve (They say) an enhanced Spiritual understanding, Martial Arts after all are merely Movements and Action, the rest is Muddled Conjecture and sold in the West as 'The Secrets of The Orient'.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Who says that other Chinese Fighting Arts are Not 'Kung Fu'?

Who says they are? What makes kung fu kung fu? Are all Chinese martial arts kung fu? If so, why aren't martial arts outside of China called kung fu? Why not karate, or judo, or fencing?

What defines kung fu? You seem adept at taking a contrary position, but how would you answer the same question?

Whilst I agree that Martial Art practice and devotion can indeed be a path to Perfection, Martial Arts are NOT Religions or indeed particularly Spiritual.

I never said martial arts are religions or spiritual pursuits. I said, to quote, "Kung fu is more than a martial tradition, it is also a spiritual pursuit, a path to perfection." I never said anything about any other martial arts. I also never said kung fu was not a fighting system. It is. What did I say? It is more than only that. You may practice the fighting system without the spiritual aspect, but that does not mean it is not part of the complete art. To many, it is the most important part. This may not be true of all martial arts, but it certainly is of kung fu.

Is it possible to seperate the theology and culture of Chinese civilization from kung fu? Is it desirable to do so? I leave it to you.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
You may practice the fighting system without the spiritual aspect, but that does not mean it is not part of the complete art. To many, it is the most important part.

And there we have it. That is the major problem with Kung Fu styles today, too many people sighting the 'Spiritual' aspect of the Martial Art and not concentrating on what it is really about, IE Self-Protection/ Fighting.

That's why a large amount of Kung Fu systems now look like fanciful museum pieces, that look lovely but have lost or are losing their Combat Efficiency, because of the Hyperbole and Psychobabble that is often associated with them.

I shan't say anymore other than you are wrong, but I fully support your democratic right to pursue Spiritualism in something that is merely about Movement and Action.

Shaolin Monks are spiritual because they are practising Buddhists and not because they do Kung Fu. Nuff Said.

[Sub zero]

wooooooooooohh there. Nothing like a good dicussion *argument. :D

As a CMA praticioner my self i would like to say that IMO the piritual aspect that so many speak about is more how poeple chnage their attitudes not soul. I think Kung Fu does make poeple better people out of..........not so good people. However this is entirely a part of kung fu. Thru the physical trining (be it internal oir external). NOT thru sitting around thinking about it.

I mean in alot of the internal systems (which are just as if not more than effective than external ) you get many stances relating to chinese astrology. That's how built in it is. These stances are not designed for thinking about the meaning of life. Tehy 're designed to hurt/mame/kill poepl in what their creators deamed the best way possible.

You do get poeple EG the sholin monks however they are clearly concerned with budhism (or were historically atleast) promairaly and the fighting art as a secondary menas of exercise defence. But in every styl;e i have ever come acroos or read about there has always been emphisis on people changing thru training. Not pondering and meditation (or not half as much at least.



Or that's what i think.

[Rob_InDaUk]

SoKKlab please check PM's I sent you one

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
I shan't say anymore other than you are wrong, but I fully support your democratic right to pursue Spiritualism in something that is merely about Movement and Action. Thank you for your support. I, in turn, support your right to move your arms and legs and jump around like a puppet.

You may walk through the forest and not believe in the trees, but only if you are careful not to walk into one.

[SoKKlab]

If that's the best you can do in terms of put downs then you'll have to try harder, much harder. Especially as this is the best you can do after two days of trying to think up a witty answer....

I don't actually do 'Kung Fu' as there are too many people involved in it claiming Spiritual aspects to something which has none, whilst waving their arms and legs around like a puppet.

Do you have anything constructive to say or are you going to keep throwing your toys out of the pram?

[YODA]

Woa there a moment you two...

Discussion - check!

Disagreement - check!

Argument - check!

Personal put downs and insults - Kahhoooga, kahooooga - NO THANKS!

I'm not saying we are 100% there yet but it's getting that way. It would be a shame to see both your interesting points of view relegated to the sin bin where nobody can see them.

Just a warning shot over your heads :D

[SoKKlab]

Don't worry. I am saying nothing else, in order to keep the peace..

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
If that's the best you can do in terms of put downs then you'll have to try harder, much harder. I have no intention of resorting to "put downs" nor responding to the same.
I don't actually do 'Kung Fu'... If you do not even practice it, how can you claim to understand it? Your claim that kung fu has no spiritual aspect lacks credibility. This may be true of your art, but it is not true of mine.

You may take kung fu out of China, but you cannot take China out of kung fu.

[SoKKlab]

I promised Yoda that i'd keep the peace. but feel inclined to reply with:

I have practised many systems of Kung Fu in the past, including Lau Gar, Feng Sau, Feng Yang Sau, Five Ancestors, Pak Mei etc.

So I am 'Qualified' and do definitely understand it.
Once again, do you have anything constructive to say?

[Shortfuse]

i have asked what is kung fu and i have recieved much more than i had expected and i learned a great deal of info and differant perspectives. i dont think i have seen a tread where i seems full and finished, but this one is definately full and that question is answered.

[Tsing Tao]

Many ppl say that Kung Fu is a unique way of stopping fights this is partialy true, but it seems to me that every style of martial arts isn't about fighting. To study any martial arts is to study yourself. You never truly understand the meaning of kung fu until you know yourself. it is not up to a good Kung Fu teacher to teach you how to protect yourself, but rather to guide you in your own abilities and the foundations of the art you are studying. Once you TRULEY know yourself and your abilities it is then that you have overcome your most opposing attacker. YOURSELF!

[Shaolin Dragon]

The literal translation of kung fu is "hard work" I believe.

Need we say more?

[Tsing Tao]

Shaolin is something that is missunderstood by people who practice martial arts especialy Kung Fu. Shaolin is not a style of martial arts like people think. shaolin is translated small forest or wooded hill. it is simply where the first temple was built in hanan china. Shaolin now refers to temples and martial arts that teach or practice the same things that the origional shaolin temple did. Shaolin was basicaly a martial arts university in external and internal martial arts.

[Shaolin Dragon]

But Shaolin Kung Fu refers to styles of Kung Fu that were developed at the Shaolin temple.

[David]

'Kung fu' means 'time-effort' which is 'skill'. 'Skill' is not a martial term and therefore the Chinese call kung fu a different name. Imagine if I said, "I study skill". Can't remember what the Chinese actually use but i has 'wu' in it, as in 'wu shu'.

Rubymoon, you made me snort my tomato soup with your information. Kung fu predates Shaolin by many hundreds of years. Isn't it also true that meridian theory, acupunture etc. existed further back, before Boddidharma (sp.?) came over. If it didn't then why is Chinese internal theory different to Indian?

Rgds,
David

[Shaolin Dragon]

I believe wushu IS the Chinese term, although over here it is taken to mean more flowery stuff.

Wu is a Chinese word pertaining to martial, and shu is the word for boxing, I think

[Shortfuse]

chinese martial arts are much more complicated than japanese....

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by Shaolin Dragon
I believe wushu IS the Chinese term, although over here it is taken to mean more flowery stuff.

Wu is a Chinese word pertaining to martial, and shu is the word for boxing, I think

hi. I remeber asking my chinese falt mate about this a wee shile ago. Altho his nglish isn't great, i got the impression that Wu shu in china is a broad term to describe sport and martial arts but more specificly teh same "wu shu" which we have over here.

As i said that's what i took form it and i or him could have been wrong.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Once again, do you have anything constructive to say? All of my posts have been constructive and given in the spirit of healthy discussion and debate. There's no need to be antagonistic.

The question of spirituality in kung fu remains. One person claims it doesn't exist at all in kung fu. Another (myself) claims kung fu can't exist without it. Maybe the answer falls somewhere in between.

What do you think?

I think taking Chinese theology out of kung fu is like taking the pie crust out of apple pie. Sure, it can be done...but is it still apple pie?

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by David
Rubymoon, you made me snort my tomato soup with your information. Kung fu predates Shaolin by many hundreds of years. Isn't it also true that meridian theory, acupunture etc. existed further back, before Boddidharma (sp.?) came over. If it didn't then why is Chinese internal theory different to Indian?

This is all true and raises a good point. I understand and acknowledge that martial arts existed in China long before the Bodhidharma arrived. I never intended to suggest otherwise. The only point of contention is whether those martial arts are called "kung fu."

Since this discussion began, I've realized that there are as many definitions of kung fu as there are styles. The reason I suggested all kung fu could be traced to the Shaolin temple was because I'd never heard of a style that didn't have some connection to Shaolin. Internal arts like Tai Chi Chuan and Pa Kua are generally categorized apart from (but related to) kung fu. Chin Na and Shui Jao are parts of kung fu, but are they "kung fu" when considered seperately?

The way I look at it, kung fu refers to the martial art that developed as a result of the merging between what the Bodhidharma brought to China and what was already there. Wasn't it the monks who coined the phrase "kung fu?"

I realize it's merely a question of semantics, but in order to define kung fu I think we need to nitpick a little. I understand that kung fu roughly translates to "hard work." We all know, however, that kung fu has also come to refer to a broad category of martial arts from China.

So what is kung fu? There have been many great ideas offered here. My own personal idea of kung fu has broadened quite a lot since this topic began. When I asked my Sifu this same question, he simply told me kung fu means "hard work" and left it at that. Perhaps I should have followed his wisdom and avoided opening this can of worms any further...but the question continues to interest me.

[David]

Thx for a mitigating response, my tomato soup is settling back where it should be, now! I imagine Bodhidharma's teaching has been absorbed, in whole or part, across the whole gamut of styles out there. Granted, taiji is usually classed outside the kung fu label and I can't immediately bring the reason to mind.

Shaolin is not and was not ever the centre of Chinese martial arts. A concentration, yes but most CMAs did not learn from monks on hallowed ground. I'm sure most monks knew no martial arts.

Kung fu does not mean hard work - it means skill as I explained above. No Chinese has ever specifically named their martial art with the words 'kung fu' - it is an Americanism. A Chinese saying "He has great kung fu" is simply saying that the man is good at whatever he's doing, be it racing driver, dancer, chef, solicitor, sailor, builder, tailor or even martial arts.

Rgds,
David

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by David

Kung fu does not mean hard work - it means skill as I explained above. No Chinese has ever specifically named their martial art with the words 'kung fu' - it is an Americanism.

I believe the Chinese are more likely to say 'Gung Fu'.

I'll see if one of our chinese speaking members can help here, as the meaning of the term varies depending on the context it is used in.

Work done, hard work,effort, work in progress etc.

So Gung Fu, or Kung Fu can mean a lot of things I believe.

Sokklab working hard at Thai Boxing, is doing Kung Fu perhaps? ;)

[Sub zero]

My chinese flat mate pronounces it as a sort of mix between Gung/Gong fu.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I have always believed that kung fu was taken to include all CMA, including Tai Chi Chuan.

Most CMA I have heard of claims to have some connection with Shaolin.

As for translations of Kung Fu, the Chinese language is quite complicated, consisting of many dialects (I believe Gung Fu is merely another dialect) including cantonese, mandarin and tibetan. So a phrase in Chinese could be translated in a number of ways, either literally or in context.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
All of my posts have been constructive and given in the spirit of healthy discussion and debate. There's no need to be antagonistic. What do you think?

I've already told you what I think, so it's pointless repeating it.

[Shortfuse]

what a controversial conversation. such intellegant responses filled with so much insight

[Andy Murray]

Chill Russ!

[Sub zero]

On the wu shu point earlier.

I asked a chinese froend at uni and he told me i's mainly for "diaplay" whereas Gung/Kung/gong fu is mainly fro combat. IE wu shu is used in theaters and fro public displays.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I found out why there is a different pronunciation of kung fu/gong fu - it stems from how Chinese was being translated into English. The Chinese pronounce it gung fu, which was translated into English writing as kung fu. The way we say kung fu would actually be written k'ung fu using the traditional translation.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Chill Russ!

I am, honest-hence why i'm not repeating anything, it would be a pointless exercise and a daft argument for arguments sake.

The last thing I want to do is spoil my dinner.

[CKava]

Originally posted by Shaolin Dragon
the Chinese language is quite complicated, consisting of many dialects (I believe Gung Fu is merely another dialect) including cantonese, mandarin and tibetan.

Just to be incredibly picky I thought Id point out that Tibetan isn't actually a dialect of Chinese its a radically different language who's script is actually a lot closer to Sanskrit than Chinese. Hows that for being pedantic?

Sorry to interrupt the discussion by the way...

[CFT]

Spellings are notoriously difficult where Cantonese is concerned since there were not many widely adopted standards. I think the Yale or Lau standard are the one most people are using but there are others, notably "Jyutping" which is proposed by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong.

What everyone refers to as "kung fu" is the Cantonese term for hard work / good skill. Phonetically, it would be pronounced "goong foo" that's why a lot of people (including Bruce Lee) spell it as "gung fu". The Mandarin pronunciation is "gong fu".

When you have to put a lot of work into something, we say: "haa gung fu". When someone shows a lot of skill in something we say: "hou gung fu" (good skill).

Anyway, you shouldn't be surprised at the spelling discrepancies or argue about the Romanization of Cantonese terms; e.g. the Chinese capital Beijing (in Mandarin) used to be spelt Peking even though in Cantonese it is pronounced "Buk Ging" (Northern Capital).

[CFT]

Originally posted by Sub zero
On the wu shu point earlier.

I asked a chinese froend at uni and he told me i's mainly for "diaplay" whereas Gung/Kung/gong fu is mainly fro combat. IE wu shu is used in theaters and fro public displays. I think even in wu shu there can be differences in interpretation. Undeniably there is a large effort in China to promote it as a display/exercise type of activity, and a lot of what we see when Chinese martial artists tour inside and outside of China is of the "display" type .... very acrobatic and flowery movements .... more like dance sometimes.

However, these artists have put in the hard work (gung fu!!) and actually have very good basics even if they lack the combat orientation or instinct. They have good stances, flexibility, strength, endurance, etc. It may not take that much to put the "fight" back into them.

I wouldn't write them off if that was what you were implying ....

"wu" means martial and "shu" means methods / techniques so overall it means martial arts; this is actually less ambiguous than the term "kung fu".

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by CKava
Just to be incredibly picky I thought Id point out that Tibetan isn't actually a dialect of Chinese its a radically different language who's script is actually a lot closer to Sanskrit than Chinese.

Tibetan is a part of the Sino-Tibetan Family, but it is in the Tibeto-Burman side of things as opposed to the Sino-ese.

The script that it's written in doesn't matter so much, as many languages are written in a script that is 'foreign' to their origin.

English for example is written in the Latin script (what I is writing um now) and yet should be written in the Germanic/ Runic alphabet (Bring it back!), as it is a Germanic language....

The Thai language, which is a part of the Sino-Tibetan Family (on the Sino side) is written in Sanskrit like script because of the heavy influence of Theravedic (Sp?) buddhism. Similar for Burmese etc

Whereas all the various 'Chinese' Languages such as Hakka, Hokkien, Cantonese, Mandarin etc are 'Sino-ese', even though some of them are radically different from each other.

Hokkien for example is very different in sound, intonation and pronunciation from Mandarin.

Anyway, I have now out-pedanted CKava. And taken this thread hugely off topic (I'll get me coat)...

[Luthen_inadon]

whats shaolin all about?

Shaolin is one of the original forms of Kung Fu (actually it's Gung Fu, but I'm not sure of the difference) it is divided into different Styles, such as Dragon, Mantis, Wushu, Monkey, Fist, Crane, and Scorpion. originally developed by Zen Bhuddist Monks to defend themselves from robbers, not entirely focused with IM or EM specifically, Shaolin Monks have perfected ways of not feeling physical pain, and not being affected by sharp objects, I once saw a Shaolin Monk take a spear in the hollow of his throat. anyway, that is the basic lowdown on Shaolin

[Shortfuse]

there was a dvd about the shaolin secret training things and if it teaches you how to take sharp weapons without them hitting you then why dont they spread that kind of training everywhere? is it too harsh or something or does the government want us to stay weak and vulerable to attacks?

[CKava]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
The script that it's written in doesn't matter so much, as many languages are written in a script that is 'foreign' to their origin.Well I must confess now Ive been caught its quite true the script generally doesn't say that much about the origins of a language but I thought Id just use the point that they use different scripts to highlight that they are indeed seperate languages.

On another note though, that was a pretty comprehensive post Sokklab just out of curiousity have you studied languages or something?Anyway, I have now out-pedanted CKava. And taken this thread hugely off topic (I'll get me coat)...
Apparently Im still being pedantic so Im not out pedanted yet ;)... And I realise now this might have suited a PM better but oh well (Sorry once again for another off topic post!)

[Andy Murray]

Carry on guys, the informations all good!

[SoKKlab]

Ha,
I will not be out-pedanted! So there.

I've studied Anthropology, (Physical, Cultural and Some Social), Ethnography (Same sort of thing), some Linguistics etc.

I must point out that I wasn't trying to pull the rug out from under you, just that that sort of thing really floats my boat and turns me into Mr. Logic out of Viz comic. Lol.

Incidentally the Mok language spoken in Northern Thailand has only approx. Six speakers left (Seven in 1983 figures).

try www.ethnologue.com
This is information about pretty much every language and group under the sun, by classification, family, history (Or Herstory even).

Some languages in the Americas have one speaker left, can you imagine being the only speaker left of a language?, that would rip your heart out.

When a language dies, all the memories of that people are extinguished with it.

Anyway, where were we. Oh yeah Kung Fu.

What is Kung Fu? Good Question?

[shunyadragon]

I reviewed the posts and Ray and David were closest. There are several terms in Chinese Arts of the Way that are confused on translation. This not unusual in every Chinese-English dictionary in the world jade is mistranslated.

I've lived in China six years and I have made a stumbling effort to learn Chinese and I'm not surprised at the confusion clouding Arts of the Way in the west. Most people who practice Arts of the Way don't make an effort to learn the language or the culture.

Kung fu/Gung fu means the skills or knowledge acquired in study and practice. Most often it refers to skills and knowledge of the Arts of the Way, but it may be used to refer to other skills and knowledge that require a lot of practice not only to acquire and maintain. It may be interpreted as the hard work and practice related to achieving the skill, but it definitely does not refer to as a noun for a Martial Art or Art of the Way.

Because of the confusion of using the Martial Arts for evrything from Kick boxing to Tai Qi, I prefer the trem Arts of the Way. It is more correct and descriptive of the broad range of Arts, practices, skills and disciplines associated with what people call Martial Arts which is the most direct translation of Wushu, which is a name for a group of Arts of the Way associated with Shaolin.

Arts of the Way definitely fits the range of disciplines in Japan, because the Way of the Budo includes everything from Nija to flower arranging.

The term Arts of the Way also translates better through out all the oriental languages and the different disciplines.

Qi often associated with what is called qi Gong means energy. Everything in existence has Qi. The purpose of all Arts of the way is to develop skill and acquire knowledge to balance, harmoize, conserve and properly use Qi or energy.

One aspect of Arts of the Way in the west most neglected is the role of the Traditional Medical Arts of the orient which are intimately apart of any practice and disapline of the original Arts of the Way. Because of this intimate association of Traditional Medicine with the Arts, the term Martial Arts has a very awkward meaning and does not really apply to the reality of the Way.

[David]

You say gong fu, I say kung fu
Peking/Beijing
Tomato/tomato (three posts mentioning tomatos!)

ShunyaD, if I may be allowed to confuse matters, Arts of the Way indicates to me Taoist arts (Tao is Way), entirely separate from Buddhist arts like those found at:D

QUOTE]Originally posted by Luthen_inadon
Shaolin is one of the original forms of Kung Fu (actually it's Gung Fu, but I'm not sure of the difference) ... ... developed by Zen Bhuddist Monks to defend themselves from robbers, not entirely focused with IM or EM specifically ... ... perfected ways of not feeling physical pain, and not being affected by sharp objects[/QUOTE]

Whoa there! Shaolin was more accurately described as a refuge for kung fu fightin robbers :D It was the skills of the dodgy-background monks which enriched martial arts at the temple. Even their ability to fly came from earlier masters.
:rolleyes:

Rgds,
David

[shunyadragon]

Becareful about specifically translating Chinese to English or vice-versa directly word for word. It don't work. As I said before every Chinese English dictionary in print translates 'jade' as 'yu' and they are all wrong.

The use of the 'Way' or 'Path' is used to describe the spiritual journey in Hinduism. Buddhism, Confucism and Taoism and in the Chinese literature of Martial Arts in at least several different words. In Chinese tradition and religion Buddhism and Taoism share many paths that may be called the 'Way'. The Tao may be translated the 'Way', but so may other words in Chinese that refer to the spiritual path. The use of the word 'Way' is central to the spiritual fondations of what most people call Martial Arts going back to the Vedic traditions of India and the 'Way of Wisdom' or 'jnana marga'.

If words are used like stones they build walls.
If they flow like water and sing like the wind,
they are music everyone can hear.

[David]

No source of confusion there!

thx :)

-David

[Shortfuse]

this thread has been taken completely outta my hands

[Shaolin Dragon]

Originally posted by Luthen_inadon
Shaolin is one of the original forms of Kung Fu (actually it's Gung Fu, but I'm not sure of the difference)


Actually, CMA can be traced in origins as far back as 800 B.C., whereas the Shaolin temple was not built till around abouth the 5th century AD. It is generally accepted that it became a centre for MA though.

[shunyadragon]

Shaolin is the name of Temple and used only recently as the name for schools. It is only relatively recently that the Northern and Southern Shaolin Schools formed. In terms of origins of forms and styles, most if not all styles and forms have there roots more ancient than Shaolin.

[Shaolin Dragon]

And of course many practitioners of Shaolin styles will claim that ALL martial arts can be traced back to the Shaolin temple...

[Smee]

I think you guys are in danger of not seeing the "small forest" for the trees......

;)

[zhaoyun1122]

"shaolin" is a marketing buzz word.

I think there really is only one (or a few of) animal style (as opposed to "the" animal style) that originalted from Shaolin?

True, some other monks have developed their own styles, but shaolin temples have always been a center of martial arts exchange. almost all shaolin styles had outside influence anyways. Just as shaolin being so diverse then had a hand in influencing a lot of other styles.

[shunyadragon]

There is a 'Five Animal' form practiced in China that is far older than Shaolin and has no relation to Buddism or Taoism. It likely originated as a Late Neolithic ritual hunting dance.

There are several Arts in China that can dated to rock carving and paintings.

[Shaolin Dragon]

Many CMA use animal forms/ stances/ techniques within them besides Shaolin Five Animals.

[shunyadragon]

I went back and checked the words and characters used in several different Chinese dictionaries and asked some of my friends who have practiced Arts of the Way for many years and the answers were all the same. To interpret them different would be a contradiction to the meaning of the original characters and words used throughout history.

Gung fu - The skills and knowledge acquired by many years of study under a master and practice in any disapline from poetry to cooking.

Wushu - 'Martial Arts'. The study of the disaplines of the Warrior arts and forms typical of those practiced at Shaolin, but not also practiced and also developed in different forms in many monasteries across China.

Wuyi - The skills and knowledge (Gung fu) of Wushu.

Why can't the they get it right in the west?

There is an ancient story attributed to Laozi that there were two villages seperated by a deep valley. The people from these villages grew old and died hearing the dogs bark and the cocks crow from the other village, but never knew each other.

From the east and the west we hear many dogs barking and cocks crowing, but grow old and die and never understand each other.