Steven Segal: Pro, Con, Indifferent?

[aikijudo]

I am curious to know people's views of Steven Segal, as an Aikido practitioner and teacher.

I recently read a post on another forum that discussed a meeting of the Southern California Aikido Assn. Apparently he held/holds a high position in the Assn, and there was a problem with people recognizing him during a meeting.

What do you think of Steven Segal and his contribution(s) to Self-Defense/Martial Arts in general, and in the world of Aikido?

[Kwajman]

Well, ahem, this subject was beat to h*** a few months ago, so you've been warned!!!! People either really like him or can't stand him. Me, I really like him, yes he has some warts, like he likes to throw women around once in a while, but he seems pretty genuine tho I'm sure he has an ego the size of Montana with his movies and his ranking in his religious order....Let the FUN begin.........................................

[aikijudo]

I am looking at his standing from a couple of arguable points.

1. I think that he brought a great amount of awareness to Aikido through his movies. And I would like to believe that this is a good thing.

I have read stories that Ueshiba sama wanted to restrict and/or protect his art from the outside world, and I wonder how he would feel about the movies. Personally, I think that it is a good thing, especially if the promotion of Aikido led to a good thing; saving someone's life.

2. If Steven had not made the movies, and was not a movie star, would people in the Martial Arts world still have the same opinion of him? Many people respected Bruce & Brandon Lee, Chuck Norris, etc., so what is different about Steven Segal?

I visited with some people at a local Aikido dojo here many years ago and I asked what they thought about him. They reported that he was known or referred to as the bad boy of Aikido. But they didn't explain. Can anyone tell me what this means?

[nicolo]

bad boy - it means he's always walking around with this "tough guy" image on-screen and off screen. Someone who can break your arm or neck in a second using the "esoteric" art of Aikido. It's a wonderful contrast. Here we have this peaceful art and in the center is Seagal's brand of on-screen roughneck Aikido. His style is more hardened and street oriented if anything. There's all these stories about how he worked in the CIA at one time and that the movie "Above the Law" was autobiographical in a sense, he worked in security detail, etc...all adds to the so-called mystique...etc etc..
In terms of his background, he truly is a master of what he does. I like him and it's very nice that he was able to bring Aikido (or something like it) to the foreground in action cinema.
My only problem is that's he's unable to stay the shape he was in back in 88. He's a too porked up now.

[aikijudo]

Thanks nicolo, that is pretty much what I had thought.

I was stationed on board the USS Missouri right before she was decommissioned, and I remember hearing a lot of scuttlebutt on board about his visits while filming Under Siege. Some of the men said that he was a nice enough sort, and others said they thought he was a bit conceited.

A few of them recalled an argument between he and Kelly over her haircut. Not quite sure what that was all about though.

Interesting.

[nicolo]

I mean yeah there are numerous reports of him groping women and stuff...I mean what can you do? He's guy with a weiner between his legs...he thinks movie stardom is enough to get women all over him. That's his thing. He also made moves on Erika Eleniak (who wouldn't) during Under Seige. Kelly as in Kelly LeBrock?

Professionally, he's a nice guy...good teacher...he's a Buddhist and they said he's the reincarnation of some llama. As a result he broke off three movie deals with his former director/producer Julius Nasso. Nasso is a Gambino crime family associate and opted to use Mafia muscle to extort the money from Seagal. So now they're in court over this thing. He's not a bad guy but the movie industry is filled with such shady types and you need to do business with them. It's unfortunate that Seagal Shihan hooked up with these guys.

[aikijudo]

Kelly LeBrock is correct.

Do you think Ueshiba sama would have approved of him making the movies? I wonder what Kissomaru (sp?) thinks? Any idea?

[nicolo]

Given the nature of O Sensei, he would have preferred of a more "gentler" portrayal of the art, but I don't think he would have said NO. It would have been more of a novelty for him Gentle doesn't sell box office tickets though. People want to see action. Seagal does seem to have a huge respect for his predecessors and he might have honored their wishes. Who knows. Maybe he would have avoided movies and studied alongside Ueshiba if he was still around. Seagal's movies are pretty violent but on the grander scheme of things, it's ultimately about restoring order to disorder. He always slips in his holier-than-thou message at the end to justify his bad behavior. So I guess that's ok for most people. Break some things, but say you had to at the end.
Dunno what O Sensei's son has to say about all this though...but if he had decided to respect his father's traditions he would have admonished Seagal about making such movies a long time ago.
The thing is that Seagal has the credentials and the background in Aikido so he has their trust. They see him as someone who can be peaceful but also embodying the spirit of the warrior in him. When you look at him, he emanates zanshin, he is calm and collect but is able to stop adversity in a second. If he can't portray Aikido in a very good light, he can show the strength and spirit of the Japanese arts in his movies. I think that would appeal to many many people in Aikido circles.

[aikijudo]

Originally posted by nicolo
Break some things, but say you had to at the end.


LOL - I think you are probably right about Kissomaru as well.

Off Topic: Why do people insist on calling Ueshiba sama O-Sensai. I have read several testimonials from his disciples where he stated he did not like being called sensei; he felt that he was, and would always be a student. I have the greatest respect for him saying this.

I understand people's need to pay respect to the man, because I feel the same need. I don't think I have ever felt so much respect for another human being as I do for Morihei Ueshiba. That's why I refer to him as 'sama', but wouldn't it be more prudent to respect his request and not say O-Sensai? That is something that has bothered me for many, many years.

[nicolo]

Call him what you wish...if the instructor says O Sensei then so be it. Perhaps he didn't feel like being glorified as a superior being to everyone else or he was humbled about it? Sama is more for respect for someone way higher than you so yeah you could use that. *shrug*
Whatever you do, don't make the mistake of saying "O-sama Bin Laden" ....

[aikijudo]

I only have one thing to say to Bin Laden,

As Eddie Izzard says, "f**king Jihad on You!"

And you are right, people need to follow the etiquette they are taught in the dojo.

I once tried to meet Segal, when I was stationed on the Missouri. I sopke to the person that was in charge of his Dojo in LA, and he was a very nice man. He gave me his home Phone#, took my message, and promised to talk to Segal that evening, which he did. Unfortunately Segal was busy with another movie, but he offered his regrets and invited me to contact him another time. A bit of a put off, but a very polite one. After all, I ran a VERY small dojo in Kansas City - I'm a nobody - what in the world was I thinking?

I have another question about Aikido, and I am afraid that Ueshiba sama is probably the only one that can really answer it. I was hoping to ask Segal, and I would have respected his opinion if given the chance.

I feel like Ueshiba sama created Aikido based on his reality at the time, and in Japan, where respect was a much greater thing than in the US. I am seriously doubtful that his philosophies will work today, and in America. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Aikido with all my heart and soul, but I'm afraid that I will have to kick in some Jujitsu or Judo against an American attacker.

Does this make any sense?

[nicolo]

an American attacker? LOL...what would be an American attacker? I guess you mean one that fights dirtier or sneakier? I'm assuming you're talking about a street situation? In a street situation you have to be prepared at all costs. Unfortunately, no matter how prepared you are, something will undoubtedly catch you off guard. A choke from behind, knife to your back, a sucker punch, mass attacked with weapons...you just have to make dues to deal with it. Aikido in it's utmost purity is a loving art and seeks to preserve the aggressor...but tracing back, you have it's parent art of aikijutsu....then u have jujitsu...strip away the outer coating and you are left with the core of what it really came from. It is an art that was created in Ueshiba's time...will it survive in our times? I can't say that it won't and can't say that it will. It's really up to the individual practitioner...

Remember also that an evolved art is more flexible than one that is traditional. Aikido may not provide all the answers you're looking for, but it fits into a piece of the puzzle. You'll just have to adapt to your surroundings and situation. In the street there is no right or wrong way when ur life or your family's life is at stake. You'll need to act appropriately and when you do, do it without hesitation.

[hwarang]

i think his pants are too tight and he walks like there's something up his a$$

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by aikijudo
I have another question about Aikido, and I am afraid that Ueshiba sama is probably the only one that can really answer it.

Attend a John Stevens seminar and ask him. He probably knows more about what O-Sensei was trying to teach than anyone else alive, and he can explain it in American terms. I attended a weekend seminar and found him to be very approachable. He chit-chatted with us during lunch and dinner, and during breaks. I asked him several questions and he answered them all. Very nice guy.

I call the founder "O-Sensei" because that's what every aikido book and every aikido magazine that I've read calls him. And I've read a lot. If I'm making a mistake I'm doing it innocently. I'm just following the lead of those who went before me.


... but I'm afraid that I will have to kick in some Jujitsu or Judo against an American attacker. Does this make any sense?
No. How is an American attacker different than some other attacker? :confused: I can understand having to use JJ or Judo against an "attacker," but I don't understand the "American" qualifier. What, you think pure aikido would work against some other nationality, so that you would not have to kick in JJ against that other nationality? If so, why?

[aikijudo]

I suppose I should qualify the "American Attacker" type person.

I have heard many people over the years refer to Americans as being a certain type of person, or acting a certain way. Americans are wild, they're crazy, they're conceited, they're aarogant, they're conservative, they do what they want... and so on and so forth; which are stereotypes to be sure. But I also believe they are based on some truths, and based on our behavior.

One thing that I can say with absolute certainty, based on my experiences, is that the majority of people I come across now-a-days care nothing for their neighbor and mutual respect is nowhere to be found; unless there is some HUGE crisis, like the World Trade Center tragedy.

{back to my premise} ... One scenario that comes to mind is a scene from an Indiana Jones movie. Indy comes up against a man wielding 2 swords. He looks at the guy, then pulls out his gun and shoots him. If you understand the ideals of this scene, then you will have an idea of what is going on in my mind. The Americans are the one with the gun.

I believe that Ueshiba sama's ideas stemmed from a Japanese outlook on life, one in which people promote respect for one-another. And if Ueshiba were to be attacked on the street, in Japan (back then), I believe the attacker would eventually bow to Ueshiba sama, showing respect for his great art; or greater skill. My theory is that this scenario would turn out differently in America. The attacker would merely look for a bigger stick, or pull out a gun and shoot.

This premesis IS built on some stereotypes and generalizations, but I also believe that they are very common perceptions of Americans. I'm not particularly picking on Americans either. However, America is where I live and what I know. I would not presume to talk about citizens of another country of which I have no experience. Living in America, I see the news each night and I see the lack of respect for one-another growing each day.

My conclusion for this argument: American culture is definitely different than Japanese culture back in the 60s.

Eddie Izzard said 2 things about Ameicans that really ring true for me.

1) "You DO realize there are other countries ... don't you?"

2) "You are the new Roman Empire ..."

Did that help, or am I just digging a deeper hole? Arguments by generalization are VERY difficult.

[aikiMac]

Okay. I think I understand.

I don't think that the hypothetical American who attacked O-Sensei would be able to continue his fight after the first throw. But bringing this down to the level of us inferior mortals, I think that aikido has the potential to work just fine in the year 2003. I reach that conclusion from applying an escrima mindset to aikido.

Escrima (kali, arnis) doesn't have fixed attacks like karate and western boxing. Escrima has angles of attacks. Whatever comes at you from that there specified angle is called a #1 ... a #2 ... #3 ... and so on. Silat follows this same thought process. Some systems have 12 angles. Some have 13, or 14, or 9, or 5. Aikido also follows this approach to combat. Aikido has 3 angles of attack. After much thought I concluded that these three angles represent the canonical form off all possible strikes from the human body. Hence, I believe that aikido is sufficient for dealing with human attacks.

[aikijudo]

Mac, I agree wholeheartedly. I believe in the 3 directions of force, and the 13 forms of attack. And I do think that Aikido can be used now-a-days. I simply don't want to hurt anyone, ever, under any circumstance. The problem is not with Aikido, it is with my mindset. I don't like the negative things that people to do one-another.

Just a few days ago a coworker told me of a classmate (female youth) that carried her dead baby around in her backpack. She simply let it die, then hid it so no one would know. I hear about things like this all the time and it really makes me wish I wasn't a human being. I am ashamed of us and our behavior (at times).

Sometimes it makes me feel like teaching self-defense is a waste of time and effort. What's it all for?

Troy steps down off soapbox; lowers head in shame.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by aikijudo
I simply don't want to hurt anyone, ever, under any circumstance. The problem is not with Aikido, it is with my mindset. I don't like the negative things that people to do one-another. ... I am ashamed of us and our behavior (at times).
Sometimes it makes me feel like teaching self-defense is a waste of time and effort. What's it all for?

Troy steps down off soapbox; lowers head in shame.
That's why I changed teams. I was doing knife fighting for a while. Enjoyed it then, and I'm better off for knowing something about that sort of fighting, but I woke up one day and asked myself, "Self, why are you practicing killing and hurting people?" And then I asked, "If Jesus and the Apostle John were going to take martial arts lessons together, which martial art would they pick?" Those are tough question to ask oneself. Maybe I got the wrong the answer. Maybe I was arrogant to even think that I could get the right answer. But nonetheless, that's when I jumped to aikido.

The physical side of self-defense is largely a waste of time unless you are a soldier. We civilians will do just as well playing basketball with a group of friends. But the spiritual side of the martial arts is highly useful because Jesus + aikido = the solution to mankind's problems. Actually, aikido is superfluous, but aikido is the physical expression of the verbal teachings of Jesus, so it's a highly useful tool worthy to be in that equation.

[aikijudo]

Amen to that, brother. And I don't think that's arrogant at all. I basically did the same thing. TKD first, Judo & Jujitsu 2nd, Navy Special Forces, 3rd, and finally Aikido to calm me back down. Hell of a trip, but I'm glad to be here.

[Sub zero]

I haven't read the tnhread so apologise if this has been covered. I think that Steven Segal is a very competent martial artsit. BUt i have heard he has a huge ego

My main question is this. I asked it in another thread bu no one answered. Does steven Segal do Aikido or aikijitsu?

[Freeform]

I like his older films.

He is IMHO a pro with a bit of an ego, I hear he has an awesome Irimi-nage.

Col

[CASTOR]

here is a link to a Steven Segal on the crime library web site
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html

it is a pretty good article, i think a lot less of him now though.

CASTOR

[aikijudo]

Castor, WOW! Thanks for the link.

Interesting article. It doesn't paint a very nice portrait of the man, does it? Very sad.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Sub zero
My main question is this. I asked it in another thread bu no one answered. Does steven Segal do Aikido or aikijitsu?
Aikido. He's a 7th degree black belt in aikido. Some people say his 6th and 7th degrees are the result of large cash donations. Even if that's true, his 5th dan is legitimate, and that's quite sufficient. Seagal is mentioned several times in the book "Aikido in America," which recounts the lives and stories of the first generation of American aikido students and instructors. Seagal himself was not interviewed for the book, but some of the people in the book ran an aikido school in California with Seagal as one of the partners and instructors. They vouch for his talent on the mat.

[Wearing Grey]

I am sure he is good at what he does, so do not let my post distract from that, but people with huge ego's turn me off. And from what I have seen and heard, he has a huge ego.

WG

[aikijudo]

I learned a valuable lesson in the Navy. Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.

I would have to meet the man and spend time getting to know him before I could really tell what kind of man he is. And to be honest, there is no need for me to meet him. As Mac so graciously helped me to see, the real juxt of my delima is within me; I'm the only one that can really solve it.

The word tragic comes to mind. I am remembering the article I read, or the meeting minutes, from the meeting of the Southern California Aikido Assn., where the secretary documented that no one would recognize Segal, even though he maintained a high position in the Assn. This is why I am thinking the word Tragic.

I believe that Segal could be a great asset to the Aikido world, but so many things have happened that people have lost respect for him. I don't see how he can recover from this and regain the respect that he has lost from so many people.

Arigato gozaimasu Mac san; tomodachi desu.

[nicolo]

Seagal is the always the tough guy...he'd be very likely to have a big ego.
He's an aikidoka but the roughneck sequences he displays on camera are more reminiscent of aikijutsu.
Last time I remembered, I didn't see any of the bad guys smiling while their arms were being broken.
Anyone know if "Judo" Gene LeBell really did choke Seagal out during a "test" matchup?

[dustIn credible]

check this out


"NY Post: The [Vanity Fair] piece raises questions about Seagal's prowess as a martial artist, recounting how stuntman Gene LeBell once choked Seagal unconscious during an aikido demonstration, and how Seagal ducked a bout with champion black belt Bob Wall, who promised to rip off his head and defecate down his neck."

its on this site if you wanna check the legitimacy

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/steven_seagal.htm

[aikiMac]

Only the people on the set know what actually transpired between Seagal and "Judo Gene." And none of us were on the set. But I'll say this: if LeBell did choke him out, so what? Were I to make fun of Seagal I might as well make fun of the people who tap out to Rickson Gracie, or the people who fell under the punches of a young Mike Tyson. Nobody wins every day, and LeBell is a master. There is no shame when a master beats you, and maybe that day wasn't Seagal's day.

[surgingshark]

It has been reported that after making fun of him in "The Hollywood Reporter", Mr. Seagal actually challenged David Spade to a fight...

[aikiwolfie]

Steven Segal ... hmm ... he had a few good movies the rest were crap and he seems to be seriously stuck with this super cop fantasy. As an Aikido teacher/practitioner I doubt he's realy any better than any other high teacher and i can guarantee there's plenty teachers with more grace, power and skill.

What i realy want to know is what are the requirement for the machine gun kata.

[Guerilla Fists]

I lost a lot of respect for Steven Segal as an actor when he dodged a bullet from the back of his head in the movie EXIT WOUNDS. But I hear that as a martial artist he is exceptional. Just what I hear though.