Christians and MArtial Arts.

[neo_opt]

I just recieved this articl refering to TKD and Christian Beliefs.

Martial Arts and Christian Beliefs -
are They Incompatible?
This article is reproduced with the permission of Bob Orlando. He is the author of two books on the martial arts: Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals and Martial Arts America. Please contact him at Bob@OrlandoKuntao.com



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As a Christian martial artist, I am often asked two questions regarding my martial arts study and my faith. From non-believers (those who do not follow "Biblical Christianity") I am asked how I reconcile the apparent conflict between martial arts training and Christ's admonition to turn the other cheek. My Christian friends want to know how I handle the religious, philosophical, mystical, and metaphysical aspects of the art. The first question reveals the general misunderstanding of Christ's teachings so common among nonbelievers. The second reveals a similar lack of understanding on the Christian's part.

Although the "turning the other cheek" question is raised most often by my non Christian friends, it is just as misunderstood by my Christian brothers and sisters. Since Christians have the most difficulty with these issues I will address them from the Christian perspective using frequent biblical references and examples. We will begin with what was for me the tougher of the two questions.

TO TURN OR NOT TO TURN

A brochure from a martial arts publishing firm described well what most of the world believes about Christian participation in the martial arts. It said, "Kung-Fu teaches that turning the other cheek to those whose ways of life are set in strength and violence is wrong. Such a passive attitude encourages lawlessness and injustice."

The suggestion is that those who believe in "turning the other cheek" believe in voluntarily accepting violence and injustice. Further, such a position is considered wrong and contrary to the philosophy of Kung-Fu. Since the idea of "turning the other cheek" is from the Bible, are we to believe that there is a conflict between Christian teaching and the study of martial arts? Is the Christian attitude toward physical violence to be a passive one? The essential question is whether there is ever justification for inflicting injury, or even death, on another human being. That is the primary issue because other issues like pacifism, the morality of war, capital punishment and the like, are actually derivatives or corollaries of that primary issue. (1)

The idea of turning the other cheek, if not one of the more difficult teachings of Jesus to understand, is certainly one of the more difficult ones to observe -- providing it is to be taken without qualification. From the gospel of Matthew, Chapter 5, verses 38 and 39, we read the following:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

There are two ways one can interpret the command to turn the other cheek. The first is to interpret the text literally, asserting that it means exactly what it says. That would impose a duty of nonresistance on all men in all circumstances. One cannot, however, require the literal acceptance of verse 38 without also requiring the same of the other verses in that chapter -- such as verses 29 and 30. Verse 29 reads, "... if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out," and verse 30 adds, "... if your right hand causes you sin, cut it off." Taking these verses literally, without qualification, could quickly lead one to institutionalized confinement! No. This literal, unqualified interpretation seems untenable.

The other way to interpret the text is to say that it means exactly what it says, but with an understood reservation for those cases that everyone would naturally assume to be exceptions. For example, when I tell my children to be good, I do not have to tell them all of what that includes -- i.e., don't burn down the house, don't put the neighbor's car in the lake, and so on. Those things are understood. This is a normal interpretation. C. S. Lewis, a popular Christian theologian, put it like this:

Does anyone suppose that our Lord's hearers understood him to mean that if a homicidal maniac, attempting to murder a third party, tried to knock me out of the way, I must stand aside and let him get his victim? I think it impossible that they could have so understood him. I believe the meaning of the words was perfectly clear -- insofar as you are simply an angry man who has been hurt, mortify your anger and do not strike back. If however, your motives are other than egoistic retaliation, then not only are you free to protect yourself and others, rather it is your responsibility to do so. (2)

Can we find any scripture or biblical examples that confirm this? Yes. Look at Jesus' life. Jesus lived what he preached. He never returned evil for evil; he never retaliated (although he possessed the wherewithal to do so), but did he always "turn the other cheek?" In at least one case, he did not. (3)

The 18th chapter of John's gospel records Jesus' arrest and trial before both the Jewish and Roman courts. In verse 22 of that chapter, Jesus is struck with the palm of the hand by one of the officers of the Jewish religious court for answering the high priest in what the officer thought was a disrespectful manner. In verse 23 Jesus responded, "If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness of the wrong; but if rightly, why do you strike Me?"

The officer could have struck him anywhere, but a slap across the face is a common response to disrespectful speech. Assuming that Jesus was slapped across the face, we find no evidence of his voluntarily offering his other cheek for more. On the contrary, he asks why he deserved such unjust treatment.

In the book of Acts, Chapter 16, we find that the apostle Paul took a similar stand. After being beaten and cast into prison unjustly, the Philippian magistrates decided that they would release Paul and his companions and forget the matter. To this Paul responded as follows in verse 37:

They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now cast us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.

Clearly, Paul accepted no such injustice. This refutes the literal interpretation and supports the normal interpretation. The actions of Jesus and his apostle Paul indicate that there are times when the believer can and should resist evil and not offer the other cheek.

The scriptures contain still other examples that support this. Paul, writing in the first epistle to Timothy, Chapter 5, verse 8 charges me, as a husband and father, with the following responsibility: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Provision means more than just food, shelter, and clothing. It also includes safety, security, and protection from harm. Jesus, when telling his followers that they should always be ready for his return, illustrated his point by saying that his return would be as a "thief in the night"; that is, unexpected. In Matthew 24, verse 43, he added, "But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and not have let his house to be broken into."

While this verse refers directly to believers being ever ready for the Lord's return, it also clearly demonstrates that a man was rightfully expected to defend his home and family from harm. There is one more, lesser known, verse we should look at. In the moments before Christ's arrest in the garden the following exchange took place between Jesus and his disciples:

When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything? They said, "Nothing." He said to them, But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. (Luke 22:35-36)

Moments later, as Jesus is arrested; Peter uses his sword to defend his master. In John's gospel, Chapter 18, verses 10 and 11 it is recorded as follows:

Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave and cut off his right ear. The slave's name was Malchus. Jesus said unto Peter, "Put up your sword in its sheath; shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"

Do these two accounts conflict? No. In the first account the Lord was telling his disciples that the time was coming when they would no longer receive hospitality and would have to provide for themselves including self-protection (the need for the sword). This does not conflict with John's account, because there Jesus does not tell Peter to get rid of his sword, but to put it in its sheath. The sword was, and still is, necessary. There, in the garden, however, it was being used counter to Christ's purpose.

On the basis of Christ's teachings, is there really a conflict between Christian teaching and the study of martial arts? No. Is the Christian attitude toward physical violence to be a passive one? Again, the answer is no.

RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES

Discussions about turning the other cheek" focus on the question of Christian participation in martial arts in general. What about participation in Asian martial arts? Questions about how Christians handle the philosophical and religious aspects of the art usually focus on certain practices common to various traditional martial arts schools. However, before addressing specific questions, some background and history are necessary. We need to know what philosophical or religious aspects are inherent in Asian martial arts, why they are taught, and whether they are necessary for training.

Today, a number of people devote their lives to martial arts study primarily for reasons of self development. Through their practice of the martial arts, they seek to attain some glimpse of the "wisdom of the East" as set forth in the various philosophies of Taoism, Buddhism, and Zen. Karate-do, for example, means the way of karate. It is a journey which begins with the physical and ends with the spirit. The goal is to develop the spirit. How? Through physical karate training. This parallels the path of hatha-yoga with its goal self purification through physical application.

The incorporation of the contemplative, meditative, or philosophical aspects into the martial arts may have evolved as teachers began to see a need for morality in the art. As practitioners became increasingly capable of destruction, some form of control -- some personal means of tempering physical conduct and actions -- became necessary. Hence, moral codes like the Japanese code of bushido evolved.

For some, then, the martial arts offer a way that they hope will provide them with the wisdom to understand both themselves and the often unintelligible world in which they live. What they seek is a philosophy of life, a code to live by, a discipline -- in an otherwise undisciplined world.

For the Christian, using martial arts study for spiritual self development fails for two reasons. First, from a practical standpoint, there are a variety of other avenues available to the individual wishing to study Eastern culture, thought, or philosophy to formulate a life credo (and without having to break a sweat doing it, either). Second, and more importantly, Asian martial arts philosophy is deeply entwined in Eastern mysticism and religion. As such, it is incompatible with Christian beliefs. However the philosophical and religious aspects of the martial arts are not necessary for developing the physical skills the martial arts student is seeking.

Target shooting is, for many, an enjoyable pastime, but it is not without its dangers. Awareness and care are necessary to prevent injury. The same is true of everything we do, be it driving a car, cooking, using power tools -- even watching television. Martial arts are no different. Christians must be aware of the inherent dangers in the study of Eastern martial arts; but that does not necessarily mean abstinence from physical martial arts training.

The Christian martial artist must remove the religious overtones that are frequently taught as part of Eastern martial arts. Instead, he should concentrate on skills that enhance mental concentration, improve sensitivity to differing degrees of threat, and increase awareness of the interaction between attitude and performance. This is learning the fine art of strategic thinking.

Meditation

Specifically, the question I am most often asked concerns the practice of meditation. What does the Christian do when asked to meditate? First, the believer need not back away from meditation. There is nothing inherently wrong with meditation.

Scripture abounds with passages admonishing the believer to meditate on the Lord, meditate on his law, meditate on his promises, and meditate on his Word. Thus, when told to use class time to meditate, the Christian can do so. Not necessarily on what the instructor tells him to meditate on (if he tells him anything). Not with the aim of emptying his mind (as in Zen mushin) or looking within for some mystic power (such as centering in Transcendental Meditation), but purposefully and productively busying it – focusing it outward and upward to the Creator God.

Throughout history, Christian symbols and quotations from the Bible have been manipulated and abused by many including the occult, hate groups; even the news media. Should we abstain from displaying a cross because some hate group uses a burning cross to legitimize its actions? Should we avoid those verses from the Bible that have been misinterpreted, twisted, and perverted by those who would use them to serve their own purposes? No! Dr. Walter Martin, founder of Christian Research Institute, probably said it best. "The believer," he said, "should not surrender the tools of light to anyone simply because others have abused them and perverted their meaning." (4)

Alternatively, if the Christian is not feeling particularly spiritual during karate class, he can meditate on the techniques he is learning. Because of its use by New Age groups, visualization has been given an undeserved bad reputation. But using imagination to train physical skills does not violate biblical principles. So the Christian martial artist can use meditation time to rehearse what you were learning; mentally practice; see yourself having a great workout. Again, use meditation to focus your mind and attention in a positive and productive way.

Bowing

Another question that arises from time to time refers to the practice of bowing. In many schools, everyone bows before entering or leaving the training area. This is done as a sign of respect for a place of learning. In most schools, the students and instructors bow to each other. In some schools, there is even bowing before the American flag (and sometimes before the flag of the country from which the art or the instructor immigrated as well). Finally, there are schools where it is customary to bow before a school shrine or altar. What are we as Christian martial artists to make of these customs?

Historically, bowing has been used to demonstrate an attitude of respect, reverence, and submission. In Oriental culture it is common for people to prostrate themselves on the ground before kings and princes. Such customs were also prevalent among the Hebrews.

However, bowing is just as frequently noticed in scripture as an act of religious homage. No mention is made of posture, so we have no clear instruction as to whether it is of any significance if someone bows with his face to the ground (a common Eastern practice) or simply bows from the waist. This issue is not addressed because it is unimportant. It is not the posture that counts but the purpose.

Bowing, as an act of religious homage is addressed extensively in the Bible, and there is no doubt that bowing before any idol, spiritual leader or guide, or representative of a false god is prohibited. Joshua, in his last words to the elders of Israel said the following:

Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them: (Joshua 23:7)

This theme is repeated throughout scripture, so it is clear that bowing as an act of religious or spiritual homage is prohibited.

So serious is this matter that the godly man finds even innocent association with such an act painful to his conscience. For example, Naaman is cleansed of his leprosy by God through His prophet Elisha. A highly regarded general of the king of Syria, Naaman says afterward that he will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god save the Lord. However, he still has one problem. His master, the king of Syria, still worships his own god. The Syrian king was old and often took Naaman with him to lean on his arm when he went to worship. Naaman's words to Elisha reflect his predicament. Consider the following passage:

But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow also -- when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this. "Go in peace," Elisha said. (2 Kings 5:18-19)

Again, Naaman, was not worshiping this Syrian deity; his master was. He was not bowing down before Rimmon. He was only providing physical support for his master. However, Naaman found even this association was uncomfortable.

What seems clear from all of this is that the act of bowing itself is not the problem. Rather, it is the purpose of such an act. Biblically, bowing before lawful authority and spiritual leaders (like the kings and prophets) was an accepted practice. For that reason alone I think one would be hard pressed to convince an Englishman he should not bow before his monarch.

As for bowing before a school altar or shrine, if it is done as an act of obeisance or homage to some spiritual leader or guide, then for the Christian, the practice is prohibited and he must excuse himself from participation. If that is not possible (the bowing is required), then he should seek instruction elsewhere. There are many good schools where a Christian can train without having to involve himself in such practice.

Suppose that bowing before the school shrine is simply a cultural tradition, a sign of respect for a place of learning, or just recognition of the efforts of past teachers -- without any religious or spiritual significance. Is that all right?

Every believer must answer that question for himself. The apostle Paul, in I Corinthians, Chapter 10, verse 23, makes it clear that "all things are lawful," but at the same time, he says, all things are not "expedient." There may be cultural standards to consider. For example, in our culture, drinking alcoholic beverages of any kind is generally frowned upon by many bible believing Christians. However, our Christian brothers in Germany would not consider ordering a soft drink or iced tea with their meals. The Christian, then, must balance biblical truth with social standards, asking himself: Is it lawful? Is it expedient? If, in clear conscience before God, you can answer both of those questions affirmatively, then go ahead and participate.

In our school the only bowing we do is a type of mutual salute to begin and end our classes. It is not a bow of submission, obeisance, or homage. Rather, it is like an officer returning the salute of an enlisted man. With the words "Attention" and "Salute," the teacher shows his respect for the students -- they honor him by choosing to study and train with him. The students, in return, show their respect for the teacher as a worthy instructor and fellow student. It is, quite simply, mutual respect.

Finally, those who would tell us to separate ourselves from the study of Asian martial arts because of the general religious influences and overtones inherent there would do well to consider Christmas. Christmas is not held on Christ's birthday, but on the birthday of the sun. (December 25 was the first day after the winter solstice that the ancients could tell the days were getting longer.) The Christmas tree, the boughs of holly, the Christmas wreath, and the Yule log are all pagan traditions (and these are only a few). With that in mind, should not our response to the Christmas celebration likewise be abstention? No. As with everything we do in life, awareness and understanding are the keys.

CONCLUSION

The study and practice of martial arts, including Asian martial arts, offer the discerning believer an enjoyable alternative to conventional, and often boring, exercise programs. Further, they are a practical means of providing security for family, self, and home. If they are approached as outlined above, I find nothing in them that conflicts with biblical truth.

Notes and References

(1) While the scope of this paper is limited to addressing the question of how a Christian reconciles the biblical principle of "turning the other cheek" with participation in the martial arts, the answers given here have direct bearing on resolution of the primary issue and, to some degree, the satellite issues as well.

(2) C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses. (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc. 1980), 49-50.

(3) The fact that Christ was capable of resisting evil is important. A man of peace is not one who is incapable of resisting evil. Claiming to be a man of peace when incapable of resisting evil is merely compliance. Accepting evil, on the other hand, when one is fully capable of resisting or returning it is the true mark of a man of peace.

(4) Moody Monthly Magazine, December: 1986.



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©2003 Gregg London
gregg@glondon.com

[Kwajman]

I give your paper an A minus...

[Matt_Bernius]

For the Christian, using martial arts study for spiritual self development fails for two reasons. First, from a practical standpoint, there are a variety of other avenues available to the individual wishing to study Eastern culture, thought, or philosophy to formulate a life credo (and without having to break a sweat doing it, either). Second, and more importantly, Asian martial arts philosophy is deeply entwined in Eastern mysticism and religion. As such, it is incompatible with Christian beliefs. However the philosophical and religious aspects of the martial arts are not necessary for developing the physical skills the martial arts student is seeking.

For the most part it's a very well reasoned article. One thing I object to in this article is the idea that Eastern Religious thought is an inherant component of Martial Arts training. Forrest Morgan did a great job of addressing that myth in the book "Living the Martial Way." Most if not all of the martial Philosophy came from Philosophers not Religions (though it is true that the Chinese state would later build religions around the philosophers).

Additionally I question whether the Philosophical aspects of the Martial Arts are so incompatible with Chirstianity or any other of the major religions. I don't think I've ever encountered a philosophy in my ten plus years of studying the arts that coflicted with my personal belief/faith set.

- Matt

[shadow joe]

[i]

Additionally I question whether the Philosophical aspects of the Martial Arts are so incompatible with Chirstianity or any other of the major religions. I don't think I've ever encountered a philosophy in my ten plus years of studying the arts that coflicted with my personal belief/faith set.

- Matt [/B]


that's the thing i disagree with too... the story had good points... but the philosphies i study such as that of Lao Tze have only enhanced my faith rather than take away from it...



thanks for the info,
joe

[Southern Mantis]

I've seen this article before and on the whole I think it is good. It certainll helped put me at ease when I had a bit of a crisis a few moths back, thinking I was betraying my Christian faith by studying Kung Fu and Chi Gung. (note: I was browsing this site then and there have been some good discussions on this subject)

I think the philosophy aspect of martial arts is useful for understanding the way the body works (particularly in chi gung) and how we should respond to an attacker when practicing Kung Fu. I don't take it any further than that as I don't really think it has anytjhing to offer me on a spiritual level. The philosophy's focus on the physical world as a means of enlightenment does conflict with Christianity, but as said by others, you don't need to beleive this to study martial arts.

[aikiMac]

that's the thing i disagree with too... the story had good points... but the philosphies i study such as that of Lao Tze have only enhanced my faith rather than take away from it...
Additionally I question whether the Philosophical aspects of the Martial Arts are so incompatible with Chirstianity or any other of the major religions.
Likewise. I especially find aikido 100% compatible with Christianity. Aikido might just as well have been developed by the Apostle John. Okay, John and O-Sensei disagreed on the nature of God. I recognize that. This detail has eternal ramifications and is enormously important on a personal level, but this detail is not necessary to the art of aikido. You switch the deity (Jesus takes the place of Shinto gods) and voila, what you get is still O-Sensei's aikido.

You could also easily wed judo to Christianity.

[Bulldog]

As a member of the body of Christ...I would never try to tell God what he can use to glorify Himself or use as a tool to reconcile people unto Himself. I have read this article before and it has some great points. To me, it is simple. Whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do it all for the glory of God. As long as God is your #1 priority, you will have a balanced life.

I have always found it strange that "christians" who slam other members of the body for participating in martial arts, don't seem to have any problem sending their kids to basketball camps, football camps, baseball camps, cheerleading camps...but, somehow these activities are looked at as perfectly acceptible for children. What one should always remember that any activity-can be perverted...and so can one's attitude and spiritual state.

Keep the mind of Christ and there is alway freedom. I believe the Word when it says, there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. And Paul shared great wisdom and spiritual revelation when he said, all things are permissible, but not all things edify.
That's a paraphrase by the way.

I put my mission statement in the arts on my website
www.ourchurch.com/member/o/oma

For me, that is all I have to say about me being a Christ follower first...and a martial artist second...

[Matt_Bernius]

Again, ultimately, there is no directly religous aspect to the Martial Arts. Philisophical yes, religious no. Can it be used as a method for teaching religion? Yes. Clearly the Chinese used Kung Fu as a method to teach and practice Buddism. I've also seen Chirstian based Karate programs. However, the using Martial Arts as a medium to teach religion is different than stating that there is something inherently Religious about them. In this respect the arts are no different than Music. Music is not inherently secular or non secular. It just is. However it can be utilized for multiple ends.

Any program that tries to convince it's participants that Religious study is an inseperable component of the arts (regardless of which Religon, should be avoided as the instructors are corrupting the art.

- Matt

[Jordan]

Martial Arts are compadable with any religion that is based on love towards other people of different back grounds. I also am a Christian, and Aikido has made me a better Christian. :Angel:

[Tireces]

I train to be able to help myself and others from trouble should said trouble be unavoidable. I don't find it incompatable with my beliefs as a catholic. Please explain to me where this incompatability is?

[Epsilon]

Everything in life happens for a reason.

Myself, I'm a catholic boy and I find that both are very important in my life. Some say MA is contradictory to what I believe in, but I also have a hard time listening to people.

This is what I find about myself. I'm not a Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy! kind of person, I have chaos inside of me, and the only thing I could find to have the perfect balance and find peace is MA. Another words an internal struggle with myself.

[Andy Murray]

Perhaps an oversimplification, but worth considering?

A Non MArtist, has little option but to 'turn the other cheek', or respond with excessive violence.

The objective of the MArtist is to be in control of themselves, and their circumstances.

What better way to be aware of the dangers inherent in violence, than to train in it?

[Tireces]

Indeed. I'm a lot more hesitant to get into fights, particularly ones that could involve knives or other small bladed objects. One thing you learn from kali is how easy it is to get slashed.

[honest_john]

www.karateforchrist.com

Fun link for you all to consider.

[Tireces]

That looks more like using christianity as marketting to me...what should we be considering?

[aikiMac]

That looks more like using christianity as marketting to me.
Yes, sadly, I haven't found a "Christian m.a." group that is anything more than Christians getting together to train in martial arts. It could just as well be Christians playing basketball or soccer or baseball. That's all fine and good. I'm in favor of Christians playing basketball and soccer and baseball, and martial arts too. But someday it would be nice to find a group that has progressed beyond marketing hype and has actually united Christianity into their martial art to the substantially the same degree that Ueshiba united his religious teachings into his aikido, and Shaolin monks united their Buddhism into their kung fu.

[surgingshark]

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Turn the other cheek? Yes. However, it doesn't state that you let the other person strike said cheek.

[StorDuff]

Onward Christian Soldiers...


That's always sounded odd to me, and I guess I've used it as justification for future situations in which I need to use violence. But it is hard to say, violence didn't work in the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition...whereas peace is what turned back Atilla the Hun :o

[RobP]

"But someday it would be nice to find a group that has progressed beyond marketing hype and has actually united Christianity into their martial art to the substantially the same degree that Ueshiba united his religious teachings into his aikido"

Many Russian martial arts would seem to have a root in the Orhtodox church, or at least the Hesychast method of breathing.

[Gryphon Hall]

Do you think it is just coincidence that two of the most faithful people to God in the Bible were both martial artists, that is, Joshua and David, whereas a peacemaker like Solomon, given wisdom and all, did not really come up to scratch?

God's martial art: wrestling (Genesis 32:22-32). The only technique that was described was that used by God, and it was a hip dislocation.

[Sukerkin]

This is a tricky one to put an oar in :eek:

However, this is my take on the apparent dichotomy between Chistianity and Eastern Martial Arts.

Firstly, one of the primary teachings of Christ in this regard is that if anyone offers you violence you should turn the other cheek.

This in and of itself has more than one interpretation for it does not mean passive submission or lack of reaction.

Blocking an attack, for example, is still 'Christlike' for you are turning away violence, tho' it has to be said you may be inviting more because of it.

Or, like in my own school-days (per-martial arts training), you can simply keep getting up from the ground, no matter how hard they've hit you, and saying, in effect, "Well done, you've struck me, what have you achieved?".

One interpretation is that you are simply encouraging further attack, (a vaild arguement actually) but non-surrender is part and parcel of turning the other cheek. It is very much akin to the actions advocated by Ghandi (and Christ) - resisting oppression without fighting.

Going further, even actively responding to an attack can be interpreted this way as it is the dissipation of a greater evil. For example, if you disable an opponent who wishes to [B]kill[/b} you.

I've had to deal with the guilt of this myself in the past in which I was attcked by three Skinheads, for no other crime than having long hair, and defended myself.

As far as I know the 'cost' of the encounter (to my 'enemies') was one wrenched (I didn't hear it break) elbow and one (hopefully, not too severely) broken leg. At the time I applied the very Bushido concept of 'no-mind' and did what I needed to escape the trap my own stupidity had put me into. However, from that point on I've had to cope with the real fact that I injured others to preserve myself.

Is that guilt Bushido - most definitely NO. Is it Christian - most definitely YES. Why? Because if if I'd been more alert or more clever I could have avoided the fight in the first place.

That is why, in the end, Martial Arts, even with their Buddist/Shinto leanings, are not, in essence incompatible with being a Christian.

As we are not Samurai pledged to a Daimyo, our honour is our own (or more properly Gods) and how we apply what we have learned is therefor shaped by our existing religious beliefs rather than dictated merely by what we are taught physically in the dojo.

I hope the above makes sense. It's a bit rambling but that's inevitable when you're trying to meld the martial and the religious from two different cultures and not have an inherently conflicted conclusion :D.

[Supa Nova]

lonmger than a marley blunt

[Sanitarium]

At the end of the day, people will always twist the bible's words, or tell themselves it wasn't meant to be took completely literally, to satisfy themselves.

[Hapkido]

boyo im probably going to get flamed for this but hell,
im christian and ive never encountered any problems but the real question is....if this stuff WORKS and u encounter problems with your faith then your faith is probably wrong in that subject

[Wanderer]

Maybe if we focus on defense and counterattack aspects of learning. The lessons may be compatible with your faiths.

Maybe Tai Ji Quan, Qin Na may be more close to the nonhurting and focusing on defense more than those of punches and kicks. :rolleyes:

[jokerlaughsatu]

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is how violent day to day life was during Christs time. More people had weapons and were not afraid to use them. There were no phones to call the non existent police dept. A fight was more likely to end in death.
That being said any training that can help you limit the damage in an encounter should go right along with the pacifist ideal.

[Colin Linz]

Not being Christian I can’t really answer this question; however I thought I might add something as to what we consider as religion. The author has made a statement that Martial Arts are caught up in eastern mysticism and religion. When considering religion we should understand that we in the west have a different perception as to what religion is as to people in the east. Indeed it is not unusual for a Japanese person to claim more than one religion and use either Shinto Buddhism or even Christianity for different purposes throughout their lives.

Another concept is that there does not necessarily need to be a deity. Buddhism has no God figure, that is there is no divine personification that will strike you down because of some indiscretion. Buddhists believe that their own actions shape their lives; they see that bad actions will have a negative effect while good actions will cause positive effects. This is not through some God rewarding or punishing them, but rather a result of the natural law of cause and effect.

The basic difference is that we in the west look at religion as including some divine entity, while in the east it can be just a life style philosophy.

[WOspidermonkey]

Here are my two thoughts as a christian martial artists. God told the israelites to enter jericho and burn everything and kill all man woman and child oxen goat etc. Then jesus said turn the other cheek, be good to those who hurt you and pray for them. What he meant be this is to not retaliate in anger, not to sit back and be senselessly murdered for $43 and a nice leather wallet. My second thought is when in Gesemane (I think thats how its spelled :() Jesus said to Peter, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Do not train to hurt people but train to protect people. Keep this mentality in your training. 99% of fights surprisingly can be talked their way out of the other 1% can usually end in about 10 seconds.

[Estel Authorion]

How is Christ's words about living and dying by the sword any different from the Japanese swordmasters' view of katsujinken versus satsujinken?

Jesus did say that he who seeks to preserve his own life will die while he who is not afraid to lose one's own life will live. This is not different from what Bruce Lee's character in Marlowe said to the title character, "You must learn to die!"

Put up your sword in its sheath.
Tokugawa Ieyasu said that the sword is best left in its sheath. Was the Shogun therefore against the martial arts? When Kamiizumi Nobutsuna said that true courage is found in avoiding conflict, was he saying that Buddhism and kenjutsu were incompatible?

But I say to you, do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
As AikiMac pointed out, this is similar to the tenets of Aikido. So, rather than resisting the slap, we absorb the blow then turn to the opposite direction. Isn't this the tenkan of aikido, the usen saten of Shinkage Ryu? Of course, I do not think that Christ was trying to teach a self-defense technique in the text, but Jesus Christ preached non-violence even before Morihei Ueshiba realized the same.

But someday it would be nice to find a group that has progressed beyond marketing hype and has actually united Christianity into their martial art to the substantially the same degree that Ueshiba united his religious teachings into his aikido, and Shaolin monks united their Buddhism into their kung fu.
Actually, there is a martial art, or a group of martial arts, where Christianity and art are blended in a comparable way with Shaolin: FMA! :D

[Scarlet Mist]

Scarlet Mist feels drawn to say his piece. Now, Scarlet Mist is a member of the body of christ (struggling ... but a member always). Now Scarlet practices martial arts and trains as hard as he can because he wants to be able to fight. He feels drawn to it, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be able to fight, as long as you don't want to fight. It is exactly like playing a sport. Do what you will, in the end God is in control, let God judge Scarlet.

[aikiMac]

Actually, there is a martial art, or a group of martial arts, where Christianity and art are blended in a comparable way with Shaolin: FMA! :D

How so? Please elaborate. I studied a bit of escrima/arnis, and enjoyed it, so I can probably speak enough of your "language" to understand you. But my teachers never said anything of religion, and I haven't read about any significant religious underpinings in FMA.

You have piqued my interest. Please tell me how Christianity is a part of FMA.

[shalomdokwan87]

i folow christian beliefs and i understand to turn the cheek but the turn the cheek is an avoidince not to take a hit if u are fighting a posesed person they will not just stop u will have to controle them in any way nessisary untill u can deliver the posesed person

[Wanderer]

Gun does not kyll people. People kyll people.

I studied CMA, Daoism and Buddhism.

I sat for Zazen.

My religion is Christian.

I focus my study of MA on defense if need to counterattack.

:)

[Estel Authorion]

You said, "Actually, there is a martial art, or a group of martial arts, where Christianity and art are blended in a comparable way with Shaolin: FMA!"

Would you please elaborate? In what way is escrima Christian? How so? Tell me about it. I studied a bit of escrima, but I didn't see anything particularly Christian in it. I've never read about a Christian heritage. You've piqued my interest. I want to know about this. Please explain.
The relationship between Christianity and FMA is comparable to the relationship between Zen and Itto Ryu and/or Niten Ichi Ryu. That is, it is not overt, but the principles are there. This is not to say that there aren't any FMA schools out there that are overtly Christian, but the majority of FMA is related to Christianity as Zen is to some classical Japanese ryu.

For one thing, many escrima schools teach to resolve a potential conflict as peacefully as possible. This, of course, comes from principle found in Matthew 5:25-26 and Luke 12:57-59. Check out also Deteronomy 20 and compare the strategy there with the graded strategy of escrima conflict. True, not many public school-type arnis teachers teach the Chrsitian context anymore (probably because arnis in schools and colleges are more often "Physical Education"), but much private escrima instruction is done with Christian instruction.

However, there are other escrima schools which are overtly "Christian" in the same way that Aikido is overtly "Shinto". These are the schools with oracions, literally, "prayers" (comparable to Japanese kotodama), which the practicioners recite before and after practice or before a duel. Note that these schools tend to be small. Many practicioners of this sort tend to be devout (syncretistic) Roman Catholics whose religion may be analogous to the Otomo sect of O-Sensei.

When I spoke of FMA like Shaolin, I am referring to some churches who teach FMA as part of their program, both Roman Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. I myself am a Protestant and my first instruction in FMA came from my Dad, an ordained minister in the United Methodist Church. And I have in my travels with my Dad have encountered such a Church whose Pastors are FM artists. I also know at least two Presbyterian pastors (one who claims direct descent from Lapu-lapu [the Filipino who killed Magellan]) who are grandmasters in their art. I think Dan Inosanto interviewed the Lapu-lapu descendant.

But my teachers never said anything of religion, and I haven't read about any significant religious underpinings in FMA.
Usually, a Filipino will discuss religion only if he/she thinks that both of you are of the same denomination, religious or ethnic. In the same way, not many Shaolin will preach about the Eight-fold path, right? My guess is, the escrima school you studied in does not delve into Christianity (like Wing Chun does not teach Buddhism). Any chance that they are Muslim? Islam is very well represented in FMA as well.

Speaking of which, many FM arts survived through musical plays which we call moro-moros. These plays usually reenact the battles of Charlemagne or the Crusades, and even the Spanish battles in Mindanao against the Muslims there. The significant thing is, many pre-Spanish techniques were preserved here. Kali was therby preserved. But what has this got to do with Christianity? In the same way traditional Chinese opera (where many kung fu forms were similarly preserved) is related with either Taoism, Confucianism, or Buddhism.

O-Sensei was unique. He belonged to a sect that was extraordinary for its time. That he was able to unite his religion with aikido is an accomplishment. In the same way, there are some unique individuals who have united their version of Christianity with FMA.

I must therefore amend what I first stated: yes, there are some FMA which unites Christianity with their art comparable to Ueshiba aikido and Shaolin kung fu. But just as aikido is not exactly representative of Japanese MA, Christian FMA does not characterize FMA as a whole.

To answer your question again:


But someday it would be nice to find a group that has progressed beyond marketing hype and has actually united Christianity into their martial art to the substantially the same degree that Ueshiba united his religious teachings into his aikido, and Shaolin monks united their Buddhism into their kung fu.

There are groups, yes, and they are found in the Philippines. They are either mainline Protestant or esoteric Roman Catholic. They are more similar to pre-WWII "aikibudo" in that their trainees are members of the sect (Omoto Kyo/Christian members). And just as not all Buddhist sects practice martial arts, not all Christians sects do either. But there are just enough temples (Buddhist/Shinto) or local churches (Methodist/Presbyterian/Catholic) in the sidelines which do integrate Christianity with FMA.

Its just too bad that there are not enough of us. . . or is it?

The LORD said to Gideon, "The men you have are too many. . . They might think that they had won by themselves, and so give me no credit."
This, by the way, is why most authentic FMA training is usually held informally in small groups.

The thing about Christianity, however, is not about personal development. Christianity is about the salvation of souls. FMA has often been used as a tool for evangelism (what others will call "proselyting"). That is another reason why many Christian FM artists are reluctant to talk about their faith to "outsiders". They do not want to be misunderstood. It is like a Shintoist saying, "I will teach you Katori Shinto kenjutsu, just become a Shintoist."

Christians have been accused and have received a lot of flak for using almost anything to gain converts, including FMA. So, naturally, many FMAers who have integrated their faith into their art are apprehensive of how they will be received. Especially since many of their brethren frown on the martial arts. Even Shaolin was not really accepted as an authentic sect of Buddhism by the more orthodox Buddhists.

So, some Christian FMAers, faced with this dilemma, will often share their faith first before they reveal anything about their art. For what is the point in teaching a person to insure one's physical safety yet neglect what is really important--the soul.

I think that I have already posted much. Sorry.

[Knight_Errant]

I remember reading an article on some wrong-headed vicar who's banned yoga from his church hall because it's 'antithetical to christianity', which was kind of 'tarded :rolleyes:
Bottom line, I don't see any conflict between exercise and christianity, and it's wrong to try and turn martial arts into some kind of hokey pseudo-religous kick.
Just my 20 pence.

[shootodog]

there is a teaching in christianity that is essential in martial arts.

the good book says: it is better to give than to recieve! my teachers have thought so too.

[Estel Authorion]

Oh!:eek: I forgot about the Bahala na! attitude in FMA.

The term idiomatically means, "Anything goes!" but its original meaning came from the expression, "Bahala [na] ang Diyos!" which means semi-literally, "It's all up to God!" Furthermore, this expression came from the original, "Bathala ang Diyos!", or, "Bathala is Deus!" This statement was used to equate the original supreme god of the Filipinos, Bathala, with the Christian God. This eventually became a war-cry to rival the South's, "Allahu Akbar!" or "Allah is Supreme!"

Thus, the bahala na attitude came to be one where the exponent left his life in the hands of God. At times, this attitude was a tad bit fatalistic (St. Thomas Aquinas' influence) but this attitude came to be balanced with the complementary attitude bahala ka: it's up to you, or you decide (Augustinian influence). This attitude manifests the freedom of the FMA exponent to develop his own style from a core of basic techniques:

##### Why is it often said that "more is not better" in the FMA ?

In keeping with the philosophy of simplicity, most of the techniques are
taught early in training. This is an important key to the FMA. The student
can pick what works for him and create his own method of combat. The
basic principles are more important than raw numbers of technique. The
difference between an older practitioner and a newer one is not the
knowledge of greater numbers of techniques, but rather the skill in
executing a smaller number of personally selected techniques. Each FMA
practitioner keeps a small core of basic techniques that can handle many
different types of situations. Keeping it simple is one of the underlying
principles of the FMA. So how can one reconcile bahala na with bahala ka? In the same way faith and works are reconciled:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. . . not of works. . . (Ephesians 2:8-9) And yet

". . . faith without works is dead. . ." (James 2:20b) Because you must

". . . work out your own salvation. . . for it is God who works in you. . . (Philippians 2:12b-13a)Therefore, everyone functions by faith. We all walk by faith: we do not calculate cognitively every step we take--we just walk without thinking about it. Bahala na--Bahala ka is fighting without the interference of thought, it is fighting by faith brought to life by sound principles. FMA is not bound by those principles but is paradoxically set free by those same principles.

True, this is like the mushin of Zen, but hey!:love: One doesn't have to be Buddhist anymore to achieve this state. Think Bahala na--Bahala ka. That is why authentic FMA is not as technique conscious as other martial arts.

To the authentic Christian, there is no Jew or Gentile, no male or female. In authentic FMA there is no Arnis or Kali, no local or foreign. Ther is only effectivity, both in faith and in technique.:)

[wcrevdonner]

The term idiomatically means, "Anything goes!" but its original meaning came from the expression, "Bahala [na] ang Diyos!" which means semi-literally, "It's all up to God!" Furthermore, this expression came from the original, "Bathala ang Diyos!", or, "Bathala is Deus!" This statement was used to equate the original supreme god of the Filipinos, Bathala, with the Christian God. This eventually became a war-cry to rival the South's, "Allahu Akbar!" or "Allah is Supreme!"

That sounds strangely familiar to the "insha ' allah" phrase in Islam, ie 'what will be will be', or more literally translated to 'if God is willing.'

[aikiMac]

Hey Estel, keep talking. You've got me interested. Tell me some specifics.

Like, what are a couple of the most important Christian teachings, and how are these core beliefs reflected in escrima?

Escrima has a characteristic foot pattern (the triangle). Is this connected to its Christian roots? If so, how?

Escrima is known for its many flow drills. Are these connected to Christianity? If so, how? And if so, I have two particular drills in mind: the box pattern, and hubad-yubad.

Are the angles of attack related to its Christian roots? If so, how?

I don't know of any other martial arts that teach weapons first. Is this unique attitude of teaching weapons first related to Christianity? If so, how?

Does the idea that the hand, stick, and knife are all the same, come from Christianity? If so, how?

Escrima is very "flowy." Every movement flows into the next, effortlessly and seamlessly. The next movement just comes, and comes, and comes, like water pouring out of a huge bucket. All masters "flow," but escrima seems to have it to a higher degree than a great many other martial arts. Is this idea of flowing related to its Christian roots? If so, how?

... I'll probably think of more questions later.

[Kagebushi]

jesus also told his disciples to buy swords for themselves. he meant, in my opinion, if someone disrespects you, forgive him. if someone wants something from you, give it freely. this is similar to the do not murder commandment. this does not mean do not kill, it means do not take life unless neccesary. he sent his people to war several times and even punished them for not killing everything.(his command was to kill everything btw). i dont think God would have His children die and stop spreading the word as soon as someone tried to kill them. (i dont understand His motives, but i have to do what i can from His word)

[Gryphon Hall]

there is a teaching in christianity that is essential in martial arts.

the good book says: it is better to give than to recieve! my teachers have thought so too.
Here's one more: "What you sow, you reap." (Usually said when the other guy gets a hit in first) :D

[Gryphon Hall]

jesus also told his disciples to buy swords for themselves. he meant, in my opinion, if someone disrespects you, forgive him. if someone wants something from you, give it freely. this is similar to the do not murder commandment. this does not mean do not kill, it means do not take life unless neccesary. he sent his people to war several times and even punished them for not killing everything.(his command was to kill everything btw). i dont think God would have His children die and stop spreading the word as soon as someone tried to kill them. (i dont understand His motives, but i have to do what i can from His word)
You know, a lot of Christians and pacifists say that the passage where Jesus commands his disciples to sell their coats to buy a sword was meant figuratively or metaphorically. This ignores the fact that Jesus said that if before they brought no purse, bag or sword during the missionary journeys they actually went on, he said that now one must have both purse and bag, and sell his coat (a very important item then, for it is what keeps them warm at night when they sleep) to buy a sword. Seemed very important to buy a sword.

Nevertheless, I think Jesus intention was for self-defense, rather than as a means of initiating conflict (as his later admonitions to Peter seemed to show, when he attacked Malchus).

Any more thoughts? Estel? AikiMac? ;)

[aikiMac]

Nevertheless, I think Jesus intention was for self-defense, rather than as a means of initiating conflict (as his later admonitions to Peter seemed to show, when he attacked Malchus).

Any more thoughts? Estel? AikiMac?

Jesus was not a pacifist. Done deal.

"Gentle" and "kind" and "loving" and such, are not incompatible with physical self-defense. I actually see the polar opposite of "love" in the denial of self-defense. There you have it.

But I'm still confused on how escrima is wedded to Christianity. Estel?

[K93200]

I just recieved this articl refering to TKD and Christian Beliefs.

Martial Arts and Christian Beliefs -
are They Incompatible?
This article is reproduced with the permission of Bob Orlando. He is the author of two books on the martial arts: Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals and Martial Arts America. Please contact him at Bob@OrlandoKuntao.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As a Christian martial artist, I am often asked two questions regarding my martial arts study and my faith. From non-believers (those who do not follow "Biblical Christianity") I am asked how I reconcile the apparent conflict between martial arts training and Christ's admonition to turn the other cheek. My Christian friends want to know how I handle the religious, philosophical, mystical, and metaphysical aspects of the art. The first question reveals the general misunderstanding of Christ's teachings so common among nonbelievers. The second reveals a similar lack of understanding on the Christian's part.

Although the "turning the other cheek" question is raised most often by my non Christian friends, it is just as misunderstood by my Christian brothers and sisters. Since Christians have the most difficulty with these issues I will address them from the Christian perspective using frequent biblical references and examples. We will begin with what was for me the tougher of the two questions.

TO TURN OR NOT TO TURN

A brochure from a martial arts publishing firm described well what most of the world believes about Christian participation in the martial arts. It said, "Kung-Fu teaches that turning the other cheek to those whose ways of life are set in strength and violence is wrong. Such a passive attitude encourages lawlessness and injustice."

The suggestion is that those who believe in "turning the other cheek" believe in voluntarily accepting violence and injustice. Further, such a position is considered wrong and contrary to the philosophy of Kung-Fu. Since the idea of "turning the other cheek" is from the Bible, are we to believe that there is a conflict between Christian teaching and the study of martial arts? Is the Christian attitude toward physical violence to be a passive one? The essential question is whether there is ever justification for inflicting injury, or even death, on another human being. That is the primary issue because other issues like pacifism, the morality of war, capital punishment and the like, are actually derivatives or corollaries of that primary issue. (1)

The idea of turning the other cheek, if not one of the more difficult teachings of Jesus to understand, is certainly one of the more difficult ones to observe -- providing it is to be taken without qualification. From the gospel of Matthew, Chapter 5, verses 38 and 39, we read the following:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

There are two ways one can interpret the command to turn the other cheek. The first is to interpret the text literally, asserting that it means exactly what it says. That would impose a duty of nonresistance on all men in all circumstances. One cannot, however, require the literal acceptance of verse 38 without also requiring the same of the other verses in that chapter -- such as verses 29 and 30. Verse 29 reads, "... if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out," and verse 30 adds, "... if your right hand causes you sin, cut it off." Taking these verses literally, without qualification, could quickly lead one to institutionalized confinement! No. This literal, unqualified interpretation seems untenable.

The other way to interpret the text is to say that it means exactly what it says, but with an understood reservation for those cases that everyone would naturally assume to be exceptions. For example, when I tell my children to be good, I do not have to tell them all of what that includes -- i.e., don't burn down the house, don't put the neighbor's car in the lake, and so on. Those things are understood. This is a normal interpretation. C. S. Lewis, a popular Christian theologian, put it like this:

Does anyone suppose that our Lord's hearers understood him to mean that if a homicidal maniac, attempting to murder a third party, tried to knock me out of the way, I must stand aside and let him get his victim? I think it impossible that they could have so understood him. I believe the meaning of the words was perfectly clear -- insofar as you are simply an angry man who has been hurt, mortify your anger and do not strike back. If however, your motives are other than egoistic retaliation, then not only are you free to protect yourself and others, rather it is your responsibility to do so. (2)

Can we find any scripture or biblical examples that confirm this? Yes. Look at Jesus' life. Jesus lived what he preached. He never returned evil for evil; he never retaliated (although he possessed the wherewithal to do so), but did he always "turn the other cheek?" In at least one case, he did not. (3)

The 18th chapter of John's gospel records Jesus' arrest and trial before both the Jewish and Roman courts. In verse 22 of that chapter, Jesus is struck with the palm of the hand by one of the officers of the Jewish religious court for answering the high priest in what the officer thought was a disrespectful manner. In verse 23 Jesus responded, "If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness of the wrong; but if rightly, why do you strike Me?"

The officer could have struck him anywhere, but a slap across the face is a common response to disrespectful speech. Assuming that Jesus was slapped across the face, we find no evidence of his voluntarily offering his other cheek for more. On the contrary, he asks why he deserved such unjust treatment.

In the book of Acts, Chapter 16, we find that the apostle Paul took a similar stand. After being beaten and cast into prison unjustly, the Philippian magistrates decided that they would release Paul and his companions and forget the matter. To this Paul responded as follows in verse 37:

They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now cast us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.

Clearly, Paul accepted no such injustice. This refutes the literal interpretation and supports the normal interpretation. The actions of Jesus and his apostle Paul indicate that there are times when the believer can and should resist evil and not offer the other cheek.

The scriptures contain still other examples that support this. Paul, writing in the first epistle to Timothy, Chapter 5, verse 8 charges me, as a husband and father, with the following responsibility: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Provision means more than just food, shelter, and clothing. It also includes safety, security, and protection from harm. Jesus, when telling his followers that they should always be ready for his return, illustrated his point by saying that his return would be as a "thief in the night"; that is, unexpected. In Matthew 24, verse 43, he added, "But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and not have let his house to be broken into."

While this verse refers directly to believers being ever ready for the Lord's return, it also clearly demonstrates that a man was rightfully expected to defend his home and family from harm. There is one more, lesser known, verse we should look at. In the moments before Christ's arrest in the garden the following exchange took place between Jesus and his disciples:

When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything? They said, "Nothing." He said to them, But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. (Luke 22:35-36)

Moments later, as Jesus is arrested; Peter uses his sword to defend his master. In John's gospel, Chapter 18, verses 10 and 11 it is recorded as follows:

Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave and cut off his right ear. The slave's name was Malchus. Jesus said unto Peter, "Put up your sword in its sheath; shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"

Do these two accounts conflict? No. In the first account the Lord was telling his disciples that the time was coming when they would no longer receive hospitality and would have to provide for themselves including self-protection (the need for the sword). This does not conflict with John's account, because there Jesus does not tell Peter to get rid of his sword, but to put it in its sheath. The sword was, and still is, necessary. There, in the garden, however, it was being used counter to Christ's purpose.

On the basis of Christ's teachings, is there really a conflict between Christian teaching and the study of martial arts? No. Is the Christian attitude toward physical violence to be a passive one? Again, the answer is no.

RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES

Discussions about turning the other cheek" focus on the question of Christian participation in martial arts in general. What about participation in Asian martial arts? Questions about how Christians handle the philosophical and religious aspects of the art usually focus on certain practices common to various traditional martial arts schools. However, before addressing specific questions, some background and history are necessary. We need to know what philosophical or religious aspects are inherent in Asian martial arts, why they are taught, and whether they are necessary for training.

Today, a number of people devote their lives to martial arts study primarily for reasons of self development. Through their practice of the martial arts, they seek to attain some glimpse of the "wisdom of the East" as set forth in the various philosophies of Taoism, Buddhism, and Zen. Karate-do, for example, means the way of karate. It is a journey which begins with the physical and ends with the spirit. The goal is to develop the spirit. How? Through physical karate training. This parallels the path of hatha-yoga with its goal self purification through physical application.

The incorporation of the contemplative, meditative, or philosophical aspects into the martial arts may have evolved as teachers began to see a need for morality in the art. As practitioners became increasingly capable of destruction, some form of control -- some personal means of tempering physical conduct and actions -- became necessary. Hence, moral codes like the Japanese code of bushido evolved.

For some, then, the martial arts offer a way that they hope will provide them with the wisdom to understand both themselves and the often unintelligible world in which they live. What they seek is a philosophy of life, a code to live by, a discipline -- in an otherwise undisciplined world.

For the Christian, using martial arts study for spiritual self development fails for two reasons. First, from a practical standpoint, there are a variety of other avenues available to the individual wishing to study Eastern culture, thought, or philosophy to formulate a life credo (and without having to break a sweat doing it, either). Second, and more importantly, Asian martial arts philosophy is deeply entwined in Eastern mysticism and religion. As such, it is incompatible with Christian beliefs. However the philosophical and religious aspects of the martial arts are not necessary for developing the physical skills the martial arts student is seeking.

Target shooting is, for many, an enjoyable pastime, but it is not without its dangers. Awareness and care are necessary to prevent injury. The same is true of everything we do, be it driving a car, cooking, using power tools -- even watching television. Martial arts are no different. Christians must be aware of the inherent dangers in the study of Eastern martial arts; but that does not necessarily mean abstinence from physical martial arts training.

The Christian martial artist must remove the religious overtones that are frequently taught as part of Eastern martial arts. Instead, he should concentrate on skills that enhance mental concentration, improve sensitivity to differing degrees of threat, and increase awareness of the interaction between attitude and performance. This is learning the fine art of strategic thinking.

Meditation

Specifically, the question I am most often asked concerns the practice of meditation. What does the Christian do when asked to meditate? First, the believer need not back away from meditation. There is nothing inherently wrong with meditation.

Scripture abounds with passages admonishing the believer to meditate on the Lord, meditate on his law, meditate on his promises, and meditate on his Word. Thus, when told to use class time to meditate, the Christian can do so. Not necessarily on what the instructor tells him to meditate on (if he tells him anything). Not with the aim of emptying his mind (as in Zen mushin) or looking within for some mystic power (such as centering in Transcendental Meditation), but purposefully and productively busying it – focusing it outward and upward to the Creator God.

Throughout history, Christian symbols and quotations from the Bible have been manipulated and abused by many including the occult, hate groups; even the news media. Should we abstain from displaying a cross because some hate group uses a burning cross to legitimize its actions? Should we avoid those verses from the Bible that have been misinterpreted, twisted, and perverted by those who would use them to serve their own purposes? No! Dr. Walter Martin, founder of Christian Research Institute, probably said it best. "The believer," he said, "should not surrender the tools of light to anyone simply because others have abused them and perverted their meaning." (4)

Alternatively, if the Christian is not feeling particularly spiritual during karate class, he can meditate on the techniques he is learning. Because of its use by New Age groups, visualization has been given an undeserved bad reputation. But using imagination to train physical skills does not violate biblical principles. So the Christian martial artist can use meditation time to rehearse what you were learning; mentally practice; see yourself having a great workout. Again, use meditation to focus your mind and attention in a positive and productive way.

Bowing

Another question that arises from time to time refers to the practice of bowing. In many schools, everyone bows before entering or leaving the training area. This is done as a sign of respect for a place of learning. In most schools, the students and instructors bow to each other. In some schools, there is even bowing before the American flag (and sometimes before the flag of the country from which the art or the instructor immigrated as well). Finally, there are schools where it is customary to bow before a school shrine or altar. What are we as Christian martial artists to make of these customs?

Historically, bowing has been used to demonstrate an attitude of respect, reverence, and submission. In Oriental culture it is common for people to prostrate themselves on the ground before kings and princes. Such customs were also prevalent among the Hebrews.

However, bowing is just as frequently noticed in scripture as an act of religious homage. No mention is made of posture, so we have no clear instruction as to whether it is of any significance if someone bows with his face to the ground (a common Eastern practice) or simply bows from the waist. This issue is not addressed because it is unimportant. It is not the posture that counts but the purpose.

Bowing, as an act of religious homage is addressed extensively in the Bible, and there is no doubt that bowing before any idol, spiritual leader or guide, or representative of a false god is prohibited. Joshua, in his last words to the elders of Israel said the following:

Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them: (Joshua 23:7)

This theme is repeated throughout scripture, so it is clear that bowing as an act of religious or spiritual homage is prohibited.

So serious is this matter that the godly man finds even innocent association with such an act painful to his conscience. For example, Naaman is cleansed of his leprosy by God through His prophet Elisha. A highly regarded general of the king of Syria, Naaman says afterward that he will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god save the Lord. However, he still has one problem. His master, the king of Syria, still worships his own god. The Syrian king was old and often took Naaman with him to lean on his arm when he went to worship. Naaman's words to Elisha reflect his predicament. Consider the following passage:

But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow also -- when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this. "Go in peace," Elisha said. (2 Kings 5:18-19)

Again, Naaman, was not worshiping this Syrian deity; his master was. He was not bowing down before Rimmon. He was only providing physical support for his master. However, Naaman found even this association was uncomfortable.

What seems clear from all of this is that the act of bowing itself is not the problem. Rather, it is the purpose of such an act. Biblically, bowing before lawful authority and spiritual leaders (like the kings and prophets) was an accepted practice. For that reason alone I think one would be hard pressed to convince an Englishman he should not bow before his monarch.

As for bowing before a school altar or shrine, if it is done as an act of obeisance or homage to some spiritual leader or guide, then for the Christian, the practice is prohibited and he must excuse himself from participation. If that is not possible (the bowing is required), then he should seek instruction elsewhere. There are many good schools where a Christian can train without having to involve himself in such practice.

Suppose that bowing before the school shrine is simply a cultural tradition, a sign of respect for a place of learning, or just recognition of the efforts of past teachers -- without any religious or spiritual significance. Is that all right?

Every believer must answer that question for himself. The apostle Paul, in I Corinthians, Chapter 10, verse 23, makes it clear that "all things are lawful," but at the same time, he says, all things are not "expedient." There may be cultural standards to consider. For example, in our culture, drinking alcoholic beverages of any kind is generally frowned upon by many bible believing Christians. However, our Christian brothers in Germany would not consider ordering a soft drink or iced tea with their meals. The Christian, then, must balance biblical truth with social standards, asking himself: Is it lawful? Is it expedient? If, in clear conscience before God, you can answer both of those questions affirmatively, then go ahead and participate.

In our school the only bowing we do is a type of mutual salute to begin and end our classes. It is not a bow of submission, obeisance, or homage. Rather, it is like an officer returning the salute of an enlisted man. With the words "Attention" and "Salute," the teacher shows his respect for the students -- they honor him by choosing to study and train with him. The students, in return, show their respect for the teacher as a worthy instructor and fellow student. It is, quite simply, mutual respect.

Finally, those who would tell us to separate ourselves from the study of Asian martial arts because of the general religious influences and overtones inherent there would do well to consider Christmas. Christmas is not held on Christ's birthday, but on the birthday of the sun. (December 25 was the first day after the winter solstice that the ancients could tell the days were getting longer.) The Christmas tree, the boughs of holly, the Christmas wreath, and the Yule log are all pagan traditions (and these are only a few). With that in mind, should not our response to the Christmas celebration likewise be abstention? No. As with everything we do in life, awareness and understanding are the keys.

CONCLUSION

The study and practice of martial arts, including Asian martial arts, offer the discerning believer an enjoyable alternative to conventional, and often boring, exercise programs. Further, they are a practical means of providing security for family, self, and home. If they are approached as outlined above, I find nothing in them that conflicts with biblical truth.

Notes and References

(1) While the scope of this paper is limited to addressing the question of how a Christian reconciles the biblical principle of "turning the other cheek" with participation in the martial arts, the answers given here have direct bearing on resolution of the primary issue and, to some degree, the satellite issues as well.

(2) C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses. (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc. 1980), 49-50.

(3) The fact that Christ was capable of resisting evil is important. A man of peace is not one who is incapable of resisting evil. Claiming to be a man of peace when incapable of resisting evil is merely compliance. Accepting evil, on the other hand, when one is fully capable of resisting or returning it is the true mark of a man of peace.

(4) Moody Monthly Magazine, December: 1986.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
©2003 Gregg London
gregg@glondon.com


Kinda see what you mean but no big deal, I'm a christian and I do martial arts, I know al ot of the things are imcopatible... i don't know if i splled that rightt. But yea I know that if I use it the way I promised i would use, (to defend, teach, learn, whatever) then I think it's ok to be a martial artist and a christian.

[Albert]

karate for christ, haha, how incredibly stupid. I know jesus personally, he is a friend of mine, obviously, since IM GOD. Anywho, he is a slightly insane canadian and he doesnt care about your martial-arts conforming to stupid religions like christianity. So go ahead and kick people, you wont go to hell. I know satan too, he's a good guy, doesnt talk much.

[Jordan]

No offence dude, but when was the last time you've been to a doctor?!? :Alien:

[K93200]

karate for christ, haha, how incredibly stupid. I know jesus personally, he is a friend of mine, obviously, since IM GOD. Anywho, he is a slightly insane canadian and he doesnt care about your martial-arts conforming to stupid religions like christianity. So go ahead and kick people, you wont go to hell. I know satan too, he's a good guy, doesnt talk much.

what you mean "how stupid"?

[oneninja]

Albert I think maybe you should study the bible before making such ludicrus statements unless you dont mind making a fool out of yourself.You are obviously ignorant concerning christianity,you should really learn something about a subject before you try to prove it wrong.I think perhaps Jesus meant that you should not instigate the fight but I dont think he meant you should stand there and let someone beat the daylights out of you.As for your statement about being God I think you should be careful,God might disapprove of your blasphemy,and you probably do not want to anger him.Just some friendly advice,of course you are entitled to make your own choice.

[theblackmantis]

I totally agree with you ,see i to am a believer and i to practice chi gong along with steelwire mantis and when ever we do a exercise which involes emptying your mind i fill mine with thoughts of jesus what better way to concentrate on him then that so i believe they can work hand in hand

[Matt_Bernius]

I submit for review the following article I just came across as part of an underelated search. It's located on the second page of the PDF document. Very well researched and reasoned.

Can A Martial Art Be Religious?
Pastor John R. Himes
http://www.gmau.org/gmau_journal/gmau121.pdf

Perhaps the most important quote is:
Claims have
been made that a Karate kata is “moving Zen meditation,” that Kung Fu is Buddhist, that knowing how to fight is unchristian, etc. Such statements ignore the fact that faith is a spiritual matter, not a physical act. Remember the statement of Jesus that “God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

- Matt

[Knight_Errant]

God's martial art: wrestling (Genesis 32:22-32). The only technique that was described was that used by God, and it was a hip dislocation.
yeah! except there's this special manouvere whereby you take out somebody's rib and make a woman out of it :D

[aikiMac]

yeah! except there's this special manouvere whereby you take out somebody's rib and make a woman out of it :D
Dude, that rocks! I must be in the wrong martial art!


I submit for review the following article I just came across as part of an underelated search. It's located on the second page of the PDF document. Very well researched and reasoned.
Title should be "a martial art does not have to be religious." But ya, I think my friend John is right. You can do the same punch with or without a religious foundation in your martial art.

[Estel Authorion]

First of all, I would like to apologize to aikiMac for not having answered his PMs.:o I hope this post makes a sufficient restitution.

Hey Estel, keep talking. You've got me interested. Tell me some specifics.

Like, what are a couple of the most important Christian teachings, and how are these core beliefs reflected in escrima?

Well, for starters, the Jewish art of war as described in the Bible does not believe in starting hostilities, i.e. starting a fight. But should a fight start, one should fight to win undisputed. Its like when Jesus cleansed the Temple – he did not let up until the entire courtyard was cleared. See Deuteronomy 20


DT 20:10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

Same in escrima, which places a premium in the total defeat of the opponent and yet teaches never to enter a fight unless completely necessary. So the first option is always peace and not a fight, but should a fight come the only option is the utter defeat of the opponent.

Escrima has a characteristic foot pattern (the triangle). Is this connected to its Christian roots? If so, how?

I was told by my arnis club instructor (a Christian) that the proper footwork is like the foundation of Christian life – faith, hope and love. But I am not sure if this is the “official” interpretation of the characteristic footwork of escrima, so I would not present this as such. Some esoteric arnis styles which use oraciones liken the points of the triangle to the Trinity (complete with diagram), but that is only a few schools.

(http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/digests/fmafaq.htm]) Triangles are an important symbol in the FMA. The triangle is one
of the strongest geometrical structures and is used in the FMA to
represent strength. Many schools incorporate the triangle into their
school's logo. The triangle is also used to describe many theories
in the FMA. Some of these theories are footwork, stances,
foundations of disarms, and theories of attack.

The circular aspect of the FMA can be easily seen in Kali Villabrille/
Largusa system, wherein they zone out of the attacking angle. However,
the most glaring example of the circular moves in FMA is in the empty
hand disarms or in their foot sweeps.



Escrima is known for its many flow drills. Are these connected to Christianity? If so, how? And if so, I have two particular drills in mind: the box pattern, and hubad-yubad.



Escrima is very "flowy." Every movement flows into the next, effortlessly and seamlessly. The next movement just comes, and comes, and comes, like water pouring out of a huge bucket. All masters "flow," but escrima seems to have it to a higher degree than a great many other martial arts. Is this idea of flowing related to its Christian roots? If so, how?

Are the angles of attack related to its Christian roots? If so, how?
[QUOTE]



I think that the flow comes from the role the circle plays in escrima. Actually, my own footwork tends to be like a triangle with curved sides. But I honestly have not heard of any religious (let alone any Christian) significance to this. Sorry.



Are the angles of attack related to its Christian roots? If so, how?

I don't know of any other martial arts that teach weapons first. Is this unique attitude of teaching weapons first related to Christianity? If so, how?

Does the idea that the hand, stick, and knife are all the same, come from Christianity? If so, how?



Angles of attack? I’m not sure if there is a relationship between these and Christianity.



I don't know of any other martial arts that teach weapons first. Is this unique attitude of teaching weapons first related to Christianity? If so, how?

Does the idea that the hand, stick, and knife are all the same, come from Christianity? If so, how?

Well, the koryu of Japan do teach weapon systems first, as does many South East Asian MA. It’s probably just an Asian thing. As for the hand, stick, and knife, well, I think that this is a more of a Filipino thing.



I hope that I have not disappointed you, aikiMac, in not providing a point by point equivalencies between FMA and Christianity. :o Again, FMA may have had a Jigoro Kano in the person of Grandmaster Presas but still no equivalent of Ueshiba-sensei.;)



But does all of this lack of specific detail matter in FMA?



The (http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/digests/fmafaq.htm]The) FMA were designed
to be simple to learn. The arts were originally used to train fellow
villagers in a short period of time for combat against other villages and
foreign invaders. There was no time or reason to teach flashy techniques
nor techniques that required special abilities. Only the skills that were
proven effective and could be easily taught were used. The people who
were learning this art depended on its effectiveness and simplicity for
their survival. They were generally not martial artists or soldiers, just
villagers who had to defend their land. Some of these people had no
natural talent for fighting. They had to become proficient or perish in
battle. There was no time to teach a detailed and complex martial art if
the village was under immediate threat. Therefore, good generic methods
and solutions needed to be taught in the quickest time possible. This
philosophy of simplicity is still used today and is the underlying base of
the FMA.



FMA does not quibble about specific details that much. At least, FMA originally did not. This dislike of complexity or formalism does have a basis in Christian teaching.



[QUOTE] Matthew 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.



MT 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.



Jesus point was that many of the Pharisees put more attention on minutae than on what was really important. If I may apply this reading to the martial arts in general (note: I am NOT making an interpretation of the above Scripture, just an application):



Gold vs Temple/Offering vs Altar. People tend to place more attention on technique rather than on strategy. Of course, techniques are important, but they were originally developed to further a strategy. No matter how good your technique is you will lose if your strategy sucks. But many a martial artist who have a good sense of strategy are able to create their own techniques. They flow.



Minute Tithing/Straining a Gnat, Swallowing a Camel. I have seen and heard of martial artists who insist on performing a technique, a kata, or a drill oh so correctly to the minutest detail. They get upset with themselves and others if a minute detail is missed. But they often miss the point of a technique. A technique was meant to defeat an opponent. But many people insist on performing a move that has no combat value at all so long as “the characteristic detail of the school” is preserved.



Formalism does not work whether in religion or in combat. Again, one does not have to go into Zen to practice the formless form anymore. Christianity teaches against it. (Of course, Christians called formalism “legalism” then). Maybe this is where the concept of flow comes from, the freedom from crystalized formality.:)



1Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality.

1CO 10:14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.


2Timothy 2:22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

The point in learning to fight is to survive. Many martial arts like to present themselves as invincible, but many FMA guys I have met always tell me that there will always be someone better than you. It is better to run away after three strikes (Tagang Tulisan – Hit and Run) if the opponent hasn’t gone down. The same with religion. Face it, we cannot defeat hormones, so it is better to avoid any situation where sexual temptation is present.


So the message is: avoid trouble, avoid fighting (whether physical or spiritual), but if you do find yourself in a fight, fight hard enough to escape. But always rely on God:


James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Anyway, Kali Illustrisimo has at least two combat moves based on the movements of the Roman Catholic clergy: the bendisyon and the fraile. The last technique is considered a high level (as well as controversial) move.

And finally, a word of acknowledgement! FMA owes its Christian elements to WMA, particularly the code of Chivalry. For just as Bushido is an amalgam of Taoism, Confucianism an Buddhism, Chivalry is no less an amalgam of Christianity with other influences. True, European knights were not often very Christian, but were the samurai always true to either Shinto or Buddhism, let alone Zen?

I hope that I have satisfied you, aikiMac, and sorry again for not posting or PMing sooner.:love:

[jroe52]

i remeber my priest telling me i'd go to hell for meditating and taking communion at a rival church lol. to bad neither of those are in the bible. i don't know why jesus would send me to hell for thinking about how beautiful the world is. weird!

[aikiMac]

Thanks Estel. I'll have to stew on that for a few days.

[Tittan]

OK, I think that people just read to much into everything.

"You can't be a Christian and do MA's because Jesus didn't preach about MA's"
Well, he didn't preach about going to the movies, about using the internet or a lot of other stuff either, you're doing them while calling yourself a christian... Your argument is dead to me...

"You can't be a Christian and do MA's because Jesus preached LOVE!"
True, Jesus did preach Love, and that is why I LOVE JESUS! But this doesn't mean I can't do MA's. Sun Tzu said: "The best general is not the one who wins a thousand battles but the one who avoids a thousand battles." Avoiding battle, this is exactly why I do MA's. I want to avoid fighting.

"You can't be a christian because you do MA's. It's all Zen and other religions. And I've heard you meditate too..."
Well, if it's a sin to meditate, I'll meet with a lot of church leaders when I go to hell, because they've taught me how to meditate on the Word of God. If they did it wrong, I do it wrong, but somehow I doubt it... See you in Heaven, friend! Buddhism isn't really a religion, it's more like a philosophy, and it's somewhat compatible with christianity... Still, I'm a christian, not a buddhist...

Please, just let me lead my life the way I want to. It's all I've got, and I've dedicated it to my saviour, Jesus. If you don't think I'm a christian, please come to my church and then we can talk...

[bcbernam777]

For the most part it's a very well reasoned article. One thing I object to in this article is the idea that Eastern Religious thought is an inherant component of Martial Arts training. Forrest Morgan did a great job of addressing that myth in the book "Living the Martial Way." Most if not all of the martial Philosophy came from Philosophers not Religions (though it is true that the Chinese state would later build religions around the philosophers).

Additionally I question whether the Philosophical aspects of the Martial Arts are so incompatible with Chirstianity or any other of the major religions. I don't think I've ever encountered a philosophy in my ten plus years of studying the arts that coflicted with my personal belief/faith set.

- Matt
I also have yet to find a conflicting set of values or principles, My sifu continually focus on the need to mainitain humility, as he explains it is the only way to truely learn, pride blinds, because it masks your imperfections, humility exposes them, or rather brings them to the light, so that they can be turned into strengths. The person of Christ is our ultimate sifu, but our learning of martial arts can still be a tool in Gods hands to teach us, or reinforce truth to us.

[RichardThrower]

I am a born again Christian and I have had to wonder about whether Martial Arts and Chrisrianity are compatible. And after a great deal of thinking and discussing the matter I came to the conclusion that it depends on what you do with your training and where you take it. Jesus said to "turn the other cheek", but he did not mean for us to be passifists that let people walk all over us and push us around. I feel, and a great deal other Christians do as well, that He meant that is someone walks up and puts you dont, or hits you, because of your beliefs to walk away and not get into a tiff about it.

I do not know anyone that would not stand up for someone they care about if they are in physical altercation. It is biblical that a man protects his family. There is nothing that says Christians can not practice martial arts. After all I know many Christians that practice boxing and people do not seem to have a problem with that, so why is it wrong when other Christians practice martial arts? The bottom line is there is nothing. God does not expect us to be pushed around and sometimes it may mean putting someone in their place.

But that is just my call on it.

[Glock 18]

wow. that was a long one. :) since martial arts, contrary to the layman's point of view, have numerous benefits aside from the physical side, it's a beneficial activity. as a christian, i take up martial arts to protect others and myself (along with other benefits). it's a different story if it comes to ego and/or possessions. that's when we should not resist. none of your possessions can be worth more than your life. if one's (or others') life is threatened, however, that's when one should use his/her skills. (but when one has to die for one's own faith, one should submit to death willingly for the glory of the King.)

[aikiwolfie]

Given Chritianitys history with the crusades the inquasitions and generally hanging, burning and tortureing and persecuting anybody who didn't beleive in christe. I don't see why there should be a problem with a christian learning a martial art. You're not taking on a new religieon and the philisophical elements are neither totaly unique to the east or religieon.

[shadow joe]

i'm christian and i don't have a problem with it.


and when we meditate, i ... i mediate!! there i said it. i find that emptiness in a way of stillness is the same as what they call "sit and listen to God" in church.

it doesn't matter your faith, if you sit in stillness, something will gradually influence you in a positive way IMHO. i'm just a man, i don't think there's a way to know God fully right now so i just try to be open minded and let him come to me so to speak :)

[Infrazael]

Very, VERY interesting.

I never see why religion has to hinder Martial Arts.

However, I will stick to my Chaos Magick Theory and Dark Neopaganism, in order to further my martial abilities with even greater forces!!!

In Darkness and Chaos,

Infrazael

[tekkengod]

ok, this is a good point but does not necessarily reflect my views, i just thought it would make a few people laugh.
"when it comes to ********, religion is the reigning champion, think about it, it has convinced everyone that ther is an invisible man, who lives in the sky and he can see everything you are doing, all day, everyday. and he has 10 specific things that he dosen't want you to do, but if you do any of them. you will go to a place called hell, a place of fire and brimstone and death and torture for you to suffer and burn and rot for all of eternity............. but he loves you."-george carlin

[bcbernam777]

ok, this is a good point but does not necessarily reflect my views, i just thought it would make a few people laugh.
"when it comes to ********, religion is the reigning champion, think about it, it has convinced everyone that ther is an invisible man, who lives in the sky and he can see everything you are doing, all day, everyday. and he has 10 specific things that he dosen't want you to do, but if you do any of them. you will go to a place called hell, a place of fire and brimstone and death and torture for you to suffer and burn and rot for all of eternity............. but he loves you."-george carlin
This wasn't meant to be a religious bashing exsercise, just a christian seeking clarification on MA and its relationship with Christianity.

[Gryphon Hall]

ok, this is a good point but does not necessarily reflect my views, i just thought it would make a few people laugh.
"when it comes to ********, religion is the reigning champion, think about it, it has convinced everyone that ther is an invisible man, who lives in the sky and he can see everything you are doing, all day, everyday. and he has 10 specific things that he dosen't want you to do, but if you do any of them. you will go to a place called hell, a place of fire and brimstone and death and torture for you to suffer and burn and rot for all of eternity............. but he loves you."-george carlin
Hehehehehehehe... ROFL :D It does sound ludicrous, doesn't it. Especially that "but he loves you" caveat. But, really, it is a very good point.




And, of course, Site Administrators don't exist.

[megk]

George Carlin doesn't make points he tries to make people laugh by bashing other people. He is also completely mis-informed, which doesn't surprise me, but I won't get into that. :rolleyes:

I am a Christian ,and I have no problem or conflict with my faith in regards to MA's. I don't necessarily buy into the whole philosophy of my MA, so that helps. In everything I do I try to glorify God. If he is getting glory from me working my butt off then I am doing something right. I do not meditate before class, I pray. God helps me to remain uninjured, and to learn effectively. I make sure I praise him and thank him for giving me the ability to train.

[kataman]

Hehehehehehehe... ROFL :D It does sound ludicrous, doesn't it. Especially that "but he loves you" caveat. But, really, it is a very good point.


Mr. Carlin says these things because he doesn't knot know the nature of sin. sin is not something you SHOULDN’T do per say as much as it is that which is detrimental to your spiritual health and furthers the rift between you and the almighty one. If he understood what those ten things were in reality he wouldn’t think them so ridiculous at all.

Anyway that’s beside the point. When considering Christianity and Martial Arts it is improper to assume that just because Jesus said “turn the other cheek” it necessarily means get your butt kicked. Remember, the bible must be weighed against the Bible if we are to understand it. (it is translated after all)
Jesus also let his apostles carry blades (and at least one of them did). Also Hebrew warriors were some of the most renowned fighters of there time. :woo: If you are srtuck on the cheek (i.e. insulted) you should remember the holy spirit and pray for those who did it. If someone comes into your house and tries to hurt you or the ones you care about you should bust his scull :bang: or whatever you have to do to prevent that. Reason is a gift from God lady’s and Gent’s use it and don’t pervert it and you'll come out cool. :cool:

[Gryphon Hall]

Hehehehehehehe... ROFL :D It does sound ludicrous, doesn't it. Especially that "but he loves you" caveat. But, really, it is a very good point.




And, of course, Site Administrators don't exist.
Nobody gets it yet. <whistles innocently.>

[RichardThrower]

Mr. Carlin says these things because he doesn't knot know the nature of sin. sin is not something you SHOULDN’T do per say as much as it is that which is detrimental to your spiritual health and furthers the rift between you and the almighty one. If he understood what those ten things were in reality he wouldn’t think them so ridiculous at all.

Anyway that’s beside the point. When considering Christianity and Martial Arts it is improper to assume that just because Jesus said “turn the other cheek” it necessarily means get your butt kicked. Remember, the bible must be weighed against the Bible if we are to understand it. (it is translated after all)
Jesus also let his apostles carry blades (and at least one of them did). Also Hebrew warriors were some of the most renowned fighters of there time. :woo: If you are srtuck on the cheek (i.e. insulted) you should remember the holy spirit and pray for those who did it. If someone comes into your house and tries to hurt you or the ones you care about you should bust his scull :bang: or whatever you have to do to prevent that. Reason is a gift from God lady’s and Gent’s use it and don’t pervert it and you'll come out cool. :cool:


Very well put. I have often wanted to point out the same thing, but I was having a hard time putting it in to the correct words. Finally someone explains that "turn the other cheek" does mean you have to be beaten upon. I have had it explained to me before and I paraphrase "If someone hits you because of what you believe, you turn the other cheek, but if someone comes after you to hurt you to just hurt you, you let him have it." Christians seem to have a reputation of being pasifists and people who always take being walked on, which is not true. We can defend ourself and our friends and family... even if it mean fighting back, but we are to not just go around throwing down because we are mad.

[kataman]

I'm glad you approve, I thought allot about that and other things. Feel free to copy parts or use the wording anytime if you get stuck, I know I do. :D

[alienlovechild]

My training is all about becoming possessed by animal spirits, the mantis, the monkey, the dog - ancient Chinese Taoist practice.

I tried to run classes in halls at Christian schools, but they all turned me down. Why is this?

[ment to live]

your being possesed? you should really get an Exorcist for that... :D

[Aegis]

your being possesed? you should really get an Exorcist for that... :D
You resurrected a thread from early last year to say that?? :p

[ment to live]

Holy crap I didnt see that! I could swear I saw it on the latest threads list since thats pretty much the only things I check. I dont know, sorry about that.

[Colin Linz]

Since the thread has been resurrected I have a question. This is a genuine question and I’m not having a go at any one or their faith. While I had a Christian upbringing and did attend Sunday School whenever I could not find a way out of it. I am not that well versed in it, and don’t consider myself a Christian.

Within this page of the thread two people have given me the impression that meditation should not be done by Christians. I have no idea why this is; I certainly don’t remember it being addressed in Sunday School (perhaps it was on a day that I escaped its lessons). I have noticed that Christianity in the USA seems to be practiced a little differently than here in Australia, perhaps it is a USA interpretation. Whatever the reason, I simply can’t think of why meditation should be avoided by Christians.

[medi]

Holy Threadromancy Batman!

[mega zuki]

I have to say that your article is very well written, and I immensly enjoyed reading it. Well done!

[aikiMac]

Whatever the reason, I simply can’t think of why meditation should be avoided by Christians.
Neither can I.
When you learn of a good reason, let me know.

[Gryphon Hall]

Since the thread has been resurrected I have a question. This is a genuine question and I’m not having a go at any one or their faith. While I had a Christian upbringing and did attend Sunday School whenever I could not find a way out of it. I am not that well versed in it, and don’t consider myself a Christian.

Within this page of the thread two people have given me the impression that meditation should not be done by Christians. I have no idea why this is; I certainly don’t remember it being addressed in Sunday School (perhaps it was on a day that I escaped its lessons). I have noticed that Christianity in the USA seems to be practiced a little differently than here in Australia, perhaps it is a USA interpretation. Whatever the reason, I simply can’t think of why meditation should be avoided by Christians.

Where I came from, Christians (of which I am one) were actively encouraged to meditate. As often as one possibly can, too. And one didn't need to be martial artists to meditate also. We had entire camping trips devoted to just meditating.

[bcbernam777]

Where I came from, Christians (of which I am one) were actively encouraged to meditate. As often as one possibly can, too. And one didn't need to be martial artists to meditate also. We had entire camping trips devoted to just meditating.

Biblical meditation is essentially different from the type of meditation that is engaged in MA or other types of TM meditation. The hebrew word for meditate means to "mutter". In context with the scripture, it conveys the sense that one "mutters" or speaks the word of God, ie to fill your mind, and your mouth with the word of God, as opposed to the principle of emptying oneself, and achieving nothingness wich marks other forms of meditation, including TM meditation. Now before someone says "yes but in TM you say a mantra which is the same thing" it is not, the purpose of the mantra is to induce this emptying, the whole idea is to disengage the mind. Biblical meditation engages the mind, the two are not the same.

[mojo shorin-ryu]

cant quite remember the exact locations, but i know somewher in the bible it says osmething to the affect of..." all good things come from God " martial arts are DEFFINATELY agood thing. Chigung is DEFFINATELY a good thing for reasons many of you already know so i dont feel the need to explain. And also Paul said something such as " Disciplining the body also disciplins the spirit so yeah theres my two cents

[Sgt_Major]

<moved to religion>

[wrydolphin]

Man, Sarge, I was hoping you wouldn't notice this thread and leave it in general. :p

[Taff]

the whole idea is to disengage the mind. Biblical meditation engages the mind, the two are not the same.

Hardly. Both engage the mind, but in a different manner.

[bcbernam777]

Hardly. Both engage the mind, but in a different manner.

No they dont, I studied TM for 4 years, The TM seeks to disengage the conscious self to attain an ultra or higher conciousness that is free from the entrapments of concious thought, that is the essential purpose of TM.

[CKava]

bcbernam TM is not the only form of non-Christian meditation though is it? Nor is it's theory of the purpose of meditation the only accepted one.

I've read Taoist texts that deal with emptying oneself to allow the Tao to enter. I've read Christian mystics accounts that talk about emptying themselves to allow themselves to become a vessel of God. And so on... so I don't think your exactly right that mentally chanting a mantra is an entirely different experience to mentally muttering a chosen Christian phrase.

[bcbernam777]

bcbernam TM is not the only form of non-Christian meditation though is it? Nor is it's theory of the purpose of meditation the only accepted one.

I've read Taoist texts that deal with emptying oneself to allow the Tao to enter. I've read Christian mystics accounts that talk about emptying themselves to allow themselves to become a vessel of God. And so on... so I don't think your exactly right that mentally chanting a mantra is an entirely different experience to mentally muttering a chosen Christian phrase.

The key difference is that one does not simply "mutter" a Christian phrase, they take the scripture, and dissect it with their mind, thinking about its relevance, its meaning, its purpose, how it relates to you personally, what it reveals about the nature of God etc, a full mental and concious stimuli is involved, this is not the case with the purpose of a Mantra. And, although TM is not the entire scope on non Christian meditation, it does share key charichteristics with many other similar types of esoteric meditation. As for the "emptying" to become a vessel of God, that refers to the similarity of the emptying of Christ, who gave up His rights and own glory to pursue the glory of the Father on Earth. This emptying is nothing more (or less) than the continual process of letting go of your own rights and self interest so that Gods own interests can reighn in your own life.

[aikiMac]

The key difference is that one does not simply "mutter" a Christian phrase, they take the scripture, and dissect it with their mind, thinking about its relevance, its meaning, its purpose, how it relates to you personally, what it reveals about the nature of God etc, a full mental and concious stimuli is involved, this is not the case with the purpose of a Mantra.
Suppose I wasn't doing a mantra, but instead I was doing another type of meditation wherein I took a sentence or phrase and dissected it, and thought about its relevance and its meaning and its purpose in my life. Would that be okay? :confused:

For reference, I am thinking of the several different types of meditation described in the book How to Meditate by Lawrence LeShan. Which, if any, of LeShan's meditations un-Christian?

[bcbernam777]

Suppose I wasn't doing a mantra, but instead I was doing another type of meditation wherein I took a sentence or phrase and dissected it, and thought about its relevance and its meanign and its purpose in my life. Would that be okay? :confused:

For reference, I am thinking of the several different types of meditation described in the book How to Meditate by Lawrence LeShan. Which, if any, of LeShan's meditations un-Christian?

It may well follow the same principles as Christian meditation, yet how can it be christian, if the material involved has nothing to do with Christ??? :confused:

[CKava]

The key difference is that one does not simply "mutter" a Christian phrase, they take the scripture, and dissect it with their mind, thinking about its relevance, its meaning, its purpose, how it relates to you personally, what it reveals about the nature of God etc, a full mental and concious stimuli is involved, this is not the case with the purpose of a Mantra.
OK but what about koans? Meditation on koans is non-Christian and invoves alot of the same features that you describe above for 'Christian' meditation. Furthermore, I've seen Christian meditation were the word or phrase chanted is merely used as a meditational tool in pretty much the same way most mantra's are used so I'm not sure the distinction your making is entirely valid. Consider visualising mandala's as another example of a non-Christian yet realtively 'involved' type of meditation.

And, although TM is not the entire scope on non Christian meditation, it does share key charichteristics with many other similar types of esoteric meditation. As for the "emptying" to become a vessel of God, that refers to the similarity of the emptying of Christ, who gave up His rights and own glory to pursue the glory of the Father on Earth. This emptying is nothing more (or less) than the continual process of letting go of your own rights and self interest so that Gods own interests can reighn in your own life.
Yes I agree... which to me sounds quite similiar as emptying yourself of your own ego/self interest so that your Buddha-nature/ the Tao/ universal compassion etc. guides your actions. The main difference I see with Christians is that they perceive meditation as a means of opening themselves to 'God' rather than opening themselves to their 'true self'.

[aikiMac]

It may well follow the same principles as Christian meditation, yet how can it be christian, if the material involved has nothing to do with Christ??? :confused:
It sounds as if you are proposing that if something is not Christian in a positive sense, then it ought not be done. I reject that assertion. For example, basketball and soccer and tennis are not Christian sports, but Christians can play them without any blemish on their conscience. Chess and checkers and Candyland are not Christian board games, but Christians can play them too. Mister Rogers never preached Jesus on his television show, but Christians can and should watch his tv show, if they're going to watch tv at all.

Etc.

I fail to see how the whole of meditation is necessarily un-Christian, or anti-Christian, or otherwise bad for people. It may well be true that certain particular types of meditation are necessarily un-Christian, but, it looks to me as if certain other particular types of meditation would be quite good for all people to do, even Christians.

Your thoughts?

[Colin Linz]

It sounds as if you are proposing that if something is not Christian in a positive sense, then it ought not be done. I reject that assertion. For example, basketball and soccer and tennis are not Christian sports, but Christians can play them without any blemish on their conscience. Chess and checkers and Candyland are not Christian board games, but Christians can play them too. Mister Rogers never preached Jesus on his television show, but Christians can and should watch his tv show, if they're going to watch tv at all.

Etc.

I fail to see how the whole of meditation is necessarily un-Christian, or anti-Christian, or otherwise bad for people. It may well be true that certain particular types of meditation are necessarily un-Christian, but, it looks to me as if certain other particular types of meditation would be quite good for all people to do, even Christians.

Your thoughts?

I would have to agree. I just don’t understand why mediation can be un Christian.

As for meditation being used differently by Christians in that it is used to examine biblical text or issues of Christianity, how is this different to the meditation I do in Shorinji Kempo where the meditation is used to examine some basic Buddhist concepts? There is no muttering of sutras, just the clearing of the mind so that it can examine these concepts. Sure, Shorinji Kempo is Buddhist not Christian, but when you examine the basic values they don’t appear to be a barrier to Christian values.

One of the biggest problems I see with religion is that they all believe that their belief is the only true belief, and that they need to change everyone else’s to save them from themselves. The world would be a much better place if people looked at what we all have in common, not the differences.

[hillbilly79]

In one of the prior posts I think someone said it was un-Christian to do the empty-your-mind type of meditation. (Found it in the main article.) I was kind of caught off gaurd by that statement. I had never really considered clearing your mind to be a bad thing--just getting rid of distractions in order to better concentrate on the skills we are about to learn. Am I wrong in this thinking?