Pencak Silat Cimande Macan Guling - WTF?

[slipthejab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaBkG_bAYQ0&mode=related&search=

Can someone school me on what the ground work shown in this vid relates to in reality? I know this is a demo... but at points he does what comes off as a big ass fish flop! :D:eek:

What is the reasoning behind this sort of ground work. That and all the knee's crossed and the stretched out on the ground bit?

Not knowing much about this kind of art... it just seems ridiculous and dangerous.

[Yohan]

Erm you're right the ground stuff was retarded.

Didn't enjoy the vid at all, personally.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Yep, looks a lot like the type of stuff I did at Ann Arbor's resident Silat McDojo. Lots of flashy forms, stances that made me feel like I had scoliosis, and nothing that resembles actual hand to hand combat.
I'm sure there is plenty of good Silat out there. But my desire to dislike it is so strong.....

[Sgt_Major]

moved to silat.

Ive seen some bad Silat, but that was BAAAAAAD!

Primary principle of silat is flow. I saw no flow there, but start.stop.start.fast.stop.start.slow.fast.stop

Terrible. Words fail me really.

[Khatami]

Although I am not an exponent of Javanese silat, the art demonstrated here did seem to conform to the principles I have learnt from practising Silat Tua here in Malaysia. Whilst I agree that flow is important there are also other equally important principles which seemed to be present in the demonstrations.
It is very hard to be constructively critical without knowing what the exponent is trying to demonstrate and also without having some understanding of the cultural context of the art in question. Whilst some of the ground movement might not conform to what some might regard as the "realities" of fighting, it is hard to judge their efficacy without actually seeing the exponent fight.
In summary I think, in my limited experience, this demonstration would be regarded as a legitimate presentation of competent silat skills by the silat exponents I know here. Of course the mores and expectations of Malaysian exponents might not be the same as those in the US and Ireland :)
Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[Sgt_Major]

While respecting your opinion, I must disagree. Without flow it is not silat. Something drilled into me from many classes.

My Silat has 11 principles. Flow being the most important, the others include armour, penetration, destruction, adhesion, thorn, decoy, compacting, bamboo, off timing and trapping.

the importance of these will most likely vary depending on who you talk to, and their personal experience, but Flow should definately come tops in ways of evaluating good Silat.

[Wali]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaBkG_bAYQ0&mode=related&search=

Can someone school me on what the ground work shown in this vid relates to in reality? I know this is a demo... but at points he does what comes off as a big ass fish flop! :D:eek:

What is the reasoning behind this sort of ground work. That and all the knee's crossed and the stretched out on the ground bit?

Not knowing much about this kind of art... it just seems ridiculous and dangerous.
Where do I start!

The silat displayed is a mix of modern and more traditional silat. I don't see any of the smooth, fluid movements I am aquainted with, but I do see some remnants of older style movements. I don't think that the person performing them necessarily knows their application, and is just doing them for "artistic" purposes.

Slip... The crossed legs, etc... is used (in what I train anyway), as throat choking techniquines, etc... while it's not like what this video shows, I can see it's origins.

Like much silat, it has lost most of it's effectiveness, and has become an inside joke within the martial arts community.

But lets also remember that it takes just one person to come along, take those movements and make them effective, so let's also keep our minds open.

[Khatami]

Let us then agree to disagree :) now we are flowing! Indeed the concept of Lintar or flow is also important in some of the silat that I practise but is less important in say the buah pukul arts, where the concept of selak or "stopping dead" is sometimes more appropriate. This is something like the "kime" or focus of some Japanese arts.
In the clip we are discussing some of the art they are practising appears to have Chinese influences, particularly the punching, blocking drill. Such practice in Malaysia would be regarded as being kuntau or buah pukul.
I think one of the key things here you put your finger on when you said "My silat..." In my limited experience silat can be many different things to different people. Try for example to get two silat exponents from different schools to agree on the derivation of the word silat. In Silat Tua we say that it is derived from the Arabic term salasila which means something like heritage.
There is some discussion of these things on www.silatmelayu.com as well as a sneak peek at my teacher's new book on Silat Tua.
Could I ask which particular "style" or approach to silat you practise?
Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[Sgt_Major]

Hi Nigel, I'll field that question form my perspective. I've not trained in Silat for a few months now, due to a plethora of reasons, but when I study I study Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

[tellner]

It's definitely Silat. And honestly, I see a lot that's right and not much that's wrong here. The ground moves are familiar, and are common in other Silat stylings. It's a form of groundwork that stresses keeping the feet under you and getting back on them quickly. That makes a lot of sense, especially if you emphasize the arms and don't have the luxury of spending half an hour in the guard waiting for the other guy to make a mistake. It's better suited for fluid situations with more than one opponent.

Flow? It's definitely there. It's slower. The movements are a little exaggerated. But you can see where the guy doing the long demo is taking his cue from the rhythm. Listen to the music. Good rhythm and flow can have pauses and sudden changes of tempo and direction. Just listen to any good traditional drummer. If they'd moved it up to 110 bpm it would have looked a lot different. That's also why a lot of the rotation was between rather than at the joints.

[ptkali778]

looks good and sounds good too

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Whilst some of the ground movement might not conform to what some might regard as the "realities" of fighting, it is hard to judge their efficacy without actually seeing the exponent fight.


Thus highlighting the main problem with the demo - they don't show anything of martial value.

[tellner]

They're showing their stuff for the edification of people who are already familiar with Silat. They aren't there to prove anything, and we aren't the intended audience.

[Garuda]

When I look at the demonstration of the pesilat in the clip, it looks OK to me.

My experience is that not everything is shown in a demonstration. In our style we never show the core principles, techniques, etc. in public. What we show is just a show to entertain the public and it is not meant to show what you really do, when the situation calls for it. So when people say to me PS isn't that a dance?! Then I answer yes it could be, because I think it is better if people underestimate you.

Garuda...

[ptkali778]

they don't show anything of martial value.

maybe that's what they want you to believe. :D

[Kiai Carita]

It's definitely Silat. And honestly, I see a lot that's right and not much that's wrong here. The ground moves are familiar, and are common in other Silat stylings. It's a form of groundwork that stresses keeping the feet under you and getting back on them quickly. That makes a lot of sense, especially if you emphasize the arms and don't have the luxury of spending half an hour in the guard waiting for the other guy to make a mistake. It's better suited for fluid situations with more than one opponent.

Flow? It's definitely there. It's slower. The movements are a little exaggerated. But you can see where the guy doing the long demo is taking his cue from the rhythm. Listen to the music. Good rhythm and flow can have pauses and sudden changes of tempo and direction. Just listen to any good traditional drummer. If they'd moved it up to 110 bpm it would have looked a lot different. That's also why a lot of the rotation was between rather than at the joints.

Very well put, Tellner...

I don't think that this is a demonstration, rather it is a dance - a type of kembangan. Not the kembangan as an exercise to put your tools together in the way that is practised, say, by Wali's school, but more kembangan as entertainment. In Malaysia it would be called, I think, Silat Pulut. The main reason here is for entertainment, theatre.

Is the guy good? I would say YES. Look at his strong and fluid kuda-kuda, and his exceptional flow, from fast, to slow, from high to low. The silat he practises is Cimande Macan Guling (Rolling Tiger Cimande) and if you are not carefull fighting this man, you could, as Wali says, get your head caught in his feet and brought down with a thump. I think that he does know the aplications of what he is doing - but he is not demonstrating, he is entertaining. A similar silat style can be seen in the Pamacan demo in Sarge's silat master's website - the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka website.

I believe that Gorka and his friends filmed this clip and put it up on youtube. Gorka sometimes posts here but you could find more information on his cimandefrance website. There are several clips he put up on youtube from this trip to Cimande-land, including one showing an old man demonstrating 'kebal' invinsibility by standing on sharp goloks. Now, that clip is a Cimande demonstration.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat all,

First off, my apologies if my post offends anyone in the forum. That is not my intention. The reason I am posting here is because everyone's voice, including that of the Indonesian quarter has been heard. But as a Malaysian, it is embarassing to see my brother, Nigel, come to the aid of my nation before any other Malaysian could.

I agree in general with what Khatami (Nigel), Wali, Kiai Carita and Tellner have already posted. However, it seems to me, the disagreements stem from a common problem that all Nusantarians have, and one that we have unfortunately passed on to our brothers outside of the region, that is, what encompasses and defines silat? (or pencak, or maenpo, etc, etc)

Slipthejab says, it looks like a "big ass fish flop!" but asks a valid question, what's with the cross legged bit? One of the developmental manner of silat that I was educated in states "overestimate and overshoot". Of course, the words I used to translate this in English gains a negative connotation. It means train above and beyond your abilities and anticipate mastery of the opponent. If this guy truly can pop up from a coiled position on the ground at a snail's pace, you can bet he can do it fast. What, then, can he do when he stands up? If I misunderstood what you meant, please email me personally at webmaster@silatmelayu.com. Maybe I could understand your perspective better.

Yohan says, "...the ground stuff was retarded". I understand retarded. But this had no retardation. It was in fact, it showcased quite a vast range of abilities

TheMightyMcClaw says, "and nothing that resembles actual hand to hand combat" probably because he understands a combat demonstration to showcase combat skills. However, this is a cultural demonstration that doesn't involve two people beating the crap out of each other for the fun of people who like to watch.

Sgt Major says, "Primary principle of silat is flow. I saw no flow there, but start.stop.start.fast.stop.start.slow.fast.stop". I disagree with you on this. The way I was taught, there IS no primary principle of silat. There is only one principle seen from seven angles: Ruang (Space), Titik (Stop), Alif (Straight Energy), Lam Alif (Coiled Energy), Mata Angin (Compass Directions), Jantan Betina (Equilibrium), and Jengkal (Measurement). In my experience, all silat, in fact all human motion is bound by this one principle of seven. What you saw was the interchanging of these principles within one performance.

Khatami says, "Of course the mores and expectations of Malaysian exponents might not be the same as those in the US and Ireland". I agree. When a demonstration like this is put on, no one expects to see a real fight, just a really good performance. Surely, this concept can't be alien to anyone who knows what the WWE is about... hmmmm... maybe not.

Sgt Major says, "My Silat has 11 principles. Flow being the most important, the others include armour, penetration, destruction, adhesion, thorn, decoy, compacting, bamboo, off timing and trapping". Interesting. Would you like to start an email discussion on this? I'd like to know more.

Wali says, "I don't see any of the smooth, fluid movements I am aquainted with, but I do see some remnants of older style movements". I agree. There is definitely a mixture and influence of non-silat especially in the kicks and some of the forward postures.

Khatami says, "...where the concept of selak or "stopping dead" is sometimes more appropriate". I know for a fact, Nigel has stopped dead several LianPadukan people. :)

Tellner says, "It's definitely Silat." Thank you!

TheMightyMcClaw says, "Thus highlighting the main problem with the demo - they don't show anything of martial value". This is because valuation is a three component process. There has to be the subject which in this case is the demonstration, perceiver, which is us and perception which we gain from experience and context. For those who find value in this, we have a common perception, even though not all of us are from the same culture. For myself, I see a huge martial value in what he performed. It'll take many, many posts to get this across, but if anyone is willing, I will try.

Tellner says, "...we aren't the intended audience" Thank you again!

Salam persilatan

[Khatami]

Welcome Brother Nadzrin. I was glad to read your comments and those of the others who did not feel negatively about this performance. I was worried that I was looking at the performance from a very skewed viewpoint. Then I too looked at the Cimande demonstrated on William Sanders' site and didn't see much difference in some of the performances from that being discussed here.
I would be very interested to know more about the principles upon which the different approaches to silat are based. I was discussing this very thing with my teacher this afternoon. His take on the whole flow thing, as it relates to Silat Tua, was that while Lintar (flow) was important, all of the other principles were equally important but if you had to pick one that was fundamental it would be jantan betina, the constant interchange of opposites, similar to the principle of yin yang in Chinese arts.
I look forward to hearing more about the broad principles of the art.
Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[Trent Beach]

I see quite bit of silat and kun tao in his movements, and all very well done.

[nasigoreng]

Not all silat is based on animal forms like this one. Still, I can see some common silat characteristics: the intercepting 'suliwa' movement which parries the punch and hyperextends the elbow, and limb destructions on the high-line and low-line. I even saw what i believe was a one-leg takedown, where he lunges at what would have been his enemy's shin.

The deep crouching postures force/invite a standing opponent to attack with the legs. The pamacam player is basically playing possum on the ground, waiting to grab an incoming leg (or arm) and 'pounce' on his enemy.

why don't we see stuff like this in MMA fights? because silat is a hard discipline to study; the teachers don't show all the applications right away and it's a very 'introverted' martial art; they're used to fighting against people who fight like themselves. Maybe if someone did some research, they might find a gem that could be useful in MMA-type competitions.

Remember it took the kung-fu guys a looooooooonnnng time to come up with something that could stand up to the Thai Boxers.

[Sgt_Major]

why don't we see stuff like this in MMA fights? because silat is a hard discipline to study; the teachers don't show all the applications right away and it's a very 'introverted' martial art; they're used to fighting against people who fight like themselves. Maybe is someone did some research, they might find a gem that could be useful in MMA-type competitions.


No disrespect, but I doubt it very much.

[nasigoreng]

No disrespect, but I doubt it very much.
you're probably right.

[Gajah Silat]

:rolleyes: Yet again we confuse kembangan or pulut with the 'ol blah blah real fight chestnut :rolleyes: C'mon the clip isn't saying 'do this in a fight' :rolleyes:

TBH we could say much the same about a long winded kata or a fancy kung fu form couldn't we :)

Maybe it aint all about the physical movements but a little more to do with expression and state of mind. :D

[slipthejab]

Slipthejab says, it looks like a "big ass fish flop!" but asks a valid question, what's with the cross legged bit? One of the developmental manner of silat that I was educated in states "overestimate and overshoot". Of course, the words I used to translate this in English gains a negative connotation. It means train above and beyond your abilities and anticipate mastery of the opponent. If this guy truly can pop up from a coiled position on the ground at a snail's pace, you can bet he can do it fast. What, then, can he do when he stands up? If I misunderstood what you meant, please email me personally at webmaster@silatmelayu.com. Maybe I could understand your perspective better.

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure I follow you here.
I still don't get what's the point in throwing yourself on the ground like that.
If someone had said it represents a sacrafice throw or something similar then I'd get it... but frankly it still looks like a big flopping fish. One minute he's standing... the next the flops onto the ground.

In simple english... what is the point of that? The intent behind that move is...? :confused:

[Wali]

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure I follow you here.
I still don't get what's the point in throwing yourself on the ground like that.
If someone had said it represents a sacrafice throw or something similar then I'd get it... but frankly it still looks like a big flopping fish. One minute he's standing... the next the flops onto the ground.

In simple english... what is the point of that? The intent behind that move is...? :confused:

If you give the exact time that you are referring to in the video, I'll see if I can see what context that would be possibly used. In many silat styles, you get in close, clinch onto the leg(s) and drop your weight, bringing your opponent down.

I'll await your reply.

[Gorka]

Hi everyone,

I'm happy to see that this presentation clip reveals some reactions.
Actually, it's me who took most of the material on this video.
About the "form" of the young guy with all the knee's crossing and the ground attitude, it's a free form flow in which the silat player plays freely with different traditional posture of the style and with his inspiration. It's not a codified form.
It's more kind of free flow dance than a effectiveness demonstration.

This is pure traditionnal Pencak Silat school coming from the rice fields around the small city of Serang.

I hope you'll understand better this clip with this small explanations...

wassalam
Gorka

[SCP_Kensei]

No disrespect, but I doubt it very much.

I train in MMA and study some Silat as part of my training. I have found, on occasion techniques from Harimau, and other Silat forms to be of great use. I don;t know the technical terms as my Silat exposure is these limited to short seminar sessions and occasional diversion in our JKD classes when my instructor wants to compare a different perspective with that gained from Jun Fan, so i'll describe as best I can.

We often practise a technique that we refer to as "Shooting the tunnel" basically a "Single Leg" takedown that, once a hold is found on the target leg is turned in to a rapid spinning takedown. Believe me this has proven to be of excellent value against people who try and sprawl a little too late, as it all but negates the strength vs strength aspect fo treying to pursue and maintain the takedown.
Putakapala (sp?) turns up in my MMA sparring regularly too as a clinch defense/takedown, and really freaks out a lot of opponents.


Many of the basic techniquea from the first 3 Jurus that we are taught find application constantly during MMA and even Muay Thai Sparring.... Simple trasp and limb disruptions that disrupt the rhythm of your oponent giving you openings that might otherwise not be there.
Silat is an art that I would esperately love to study as a standalone art but my Gym no longer offers this (my schedule is insane anyway, up to 16 classes a week on top of my 9-5 job), at present I have to make do with salvaging individual techniques from the short periods of Silat exposure I have and pluggin them into my current fighting system.

It works really well, every Silat session I find soemthing new to use, dor some new application of another techinique that is mirrored in another style I have studied. Don't knock it till you;ve actually tried it.

Seriously Sgt-Major you sound like one of those people who says "Trapping doesnt work in the cage/ring/street/whatever" It does, mybe you just can't recognise it yet.

[Sgt_Major]

For your information, I studied Silat for 4 years as my sole art. How long have you studied silat?? hmmm?

[SCP_Kensei]

Read the post, it answers that question.

I havent doen much Silat at all but I still have found techiniques applicable to MMA.

Maybe it's just the styles I have been exposed to.

[tellner]

Some years back when I worked out in a MMA gym I found that Silat helped my grappling skills (especially standup grappling) quite a bit. My wrestling sucked, but it didn't suck nearly as badly as it would have otherwise.

[tim_stl]

variations of many things in silat exist in freestyle wrestling. most of the nelsons (quarter, half, three-quarter) are called putar kepala in silat. i've done variations of a whizzer, single leg, ankle pick, fireman's carry, flying mare, etc. in silat. the difference is in the 'delivery system' (to borrow a phrase from a particular mma exponent). silat wants to avoid wrestling with an opponent.

also, the clip looks like silat to me. some of the harimau movements are very familiar.



tim

[Pekir]

Sgt. Major,

I guess you're not stating that 4 years is a long enough time to comprehend silat or one of the silat styles for that matter?

Pekir

[Sgt_Major]

4 years is a drop in the ocean for any MA, not silat specifically. All Im saying is that in a fight outside a training mat, a lot of Silat techniques I just wouldnt use.

[SCP_Kensei]

But there are those you would right?

[Monyet Nakal]

I'm not affiliated so please don't consider this an advert, but IMHO the video "Kali Tudo" put out by the Dog Brothers does a fine job of opening the mind up to how to begin integrating pentjak silat principles into an MMA/Sportfighting arena.

I've lent my copy to some friends who were fairly hardcore about preaching MMA and very vocal and disparaging of traditional arts (pentjak silat in particular to me since they knew it was my background) and it caused almost all of them to rethink their position on it. (at least all of the ones willing to have an open-mind and be honest)

[Sgt_Major]

But there are those you would right?

not so much techniques, as concepts.

[tellner]

I can't off hand think of a single movement from Sera that I wouldn't use in a fight. How and when depend, of course, on the circumstances and my understanding.

[Aiodan7]

Hey Sgt Major

I know this may be an off topic but your photos are excellent, you have now caused me a serious bout of home sickness

Aiodan7

[taoizt]

I can't off hand think of a single movement from Sera that I wouldn't use in a fight. How and when depend, of course, on the circumstances and my understanding.

Exactly my point. Why would I train 'techniques' that are useless? For cultural reasons or out of respect? If I don't understand the use yet it's because I don't have complete understanding of the movements and underlying principles and I have trust in my teacher to reveal their 'secrets' later on. Some people are so quick to dismiss the movements and techniques of their style.

I do agree however that in an MMA environment (a sports environment that is) some techniques might not come in handy, but then again I don't practice sports.

[Rebo Paing]

A "technique" is a specific idea of motion designed as a response ... it is reactive in nature and is limited by it's design criteria.

When we learn a bunch of "techniques" it's akin to having a "Problem Solving Manual". Go to page 47 to analyse the sequence of beeps and lights and determine what to do. It is an process reactionary to a narrow band of stimuli.

When we go beyond technique, we sometimes discover general principles.
Principles are much more useful than techniques because we gain a deeper level of understanding.

In general, it also appears to me that meaningful answers will be forthcoming when the initial question is couched in the language of respect. I think this is missing in the genesis of this thread maybe ... Slipthejab? Or maybe I misunderstand.

FWIW, the kembangan presented has flow, is dynamic with expression and above all has heart.

Thank you Mas Gorka for sharing your experience! You are a true friend.

Salam,
Krisno

[Bobster]

I don't like the MMA comparison, I think it's an ignorant one. We DO see Silat in MMA, but I believe you are trying to refer to "The Ring". "The Ring" as most people put it, seems to have become the-all end-all proving ground of martial arts and nothing could be further from the truth.

The people who compete in MMA are fricking GLADIATORS, they sacrafice days and months of thier lives for a brief span of time to be #1 in the ring. And believe me, that time span gets shorter every year as new contenders come up. These guys are physical specimens, they do nothing but work out and train for fighting for months on end.

They don't have regular jobs.
They sacrafice family and friends for training.
They sacrafice bodily injury, often lasting into old age.

I could go on, but the point you should see by now is that the majority of ANY group doesn't live or train this way. And even if you tried, it's not a pace you can keep up for very long...Life happens, things get in the way, you have to pay bills. Oh, and that $60,000.00 check? Umm, I hate to break this to you, but I make 15K more than that per year here in Seattle fixing computer networks. Not exactly the best return for your broken leg when you put it like that, huh? And you have to win FIRST PLACE to get the cash.

Whenever someone says "Well, that wouldn't work in the ring" the first thing I say is "Good thing I only fight OUT of the ring, huh?" Also, most people who throw that point out never fight in the ring themselves. The ones that do have a great respect for other martial arts, THEY KNOW how it goes down in the cage.

In the end, Pencak Silat is no more or less valid and effective than any other martial art out there. It still all comes down to the practitioner. A good fighter can make Yoga look deadly.

You know what I would REALLY like to see? This MMA concept on an offshore oil rig, in Inernational waters. Let's bring back some real fighting, for a change. Put the biting/eye gouging back in. No pads. It's an oil rig, I can only assume body disposal would be easy...Especially in the Pacific.

...Hmmmnn, what's missing here...What would be the hallmark of Silat...Lemme think... *IDEA!* GOT IT!

Somebody go grab a couple of knives. Now talk to me about the "clinch". Go on, tell me your "Shoot" method for a 6 inch razor across your throat. Because, kiddies, THAT'S PENCAK SILAT.

Dude, I would pay SOOOOOOOO much money to see that. We would have a whole new discussion about what doesn't work in the ring.

[Sgt_Major]

and you bring your knives, I'll bring my 9mm - seeing as its all fair to use weapons and all...

:rolleyes:

[Bobster]

Hah! We already have something like that...It's called Iraq... :woo:

:p :p :p :p

[Sgt_Major]

:D

The ring makes things equal. thats all.

[slipthejab]

If you give the exact time that you are referring to in the video, I'll see if I can see what context that would be possibly used. In many silat styles, you get in close, clinch onto the leg(s) and drop your weight, bringing your opponent down.

I'll await your reply.

Sorry for the late reply.

There are two points on the vid that I wonder about. The first one isn't as floppish as the second one.

1) @4:27
This looks like it's some sort of scissor-leg takedown. Is that what it represents in this style. (yes I realize that this form of presentation is somewhat stylized)

2) @6:45
This is the one struck me right off as 'a big ass fish flop'... :D
Ok in all seriousness... what is it? Or rather what does it represent?

Is it a takedown? A sacrafice throw? From what I see it seems like that'd be the least desirable position to end up in during a fight.

The guy is flexible and no doubt strong and fast when he wants to be... that much is apparent... but my original question about the vid is what exactly do those two parts in the vid represent in Silat? :confused:

[slipthejab]

I don't like the MMA comparison, I think it's an ignorant one. We DO see Silat in MMA, but I believe you are trying to refer to "The Ring". "The Ring" as most people put it, seems to have become the-all end-all proving ground of martial arts and nothing could be further from the truth.

The people who compete in MMA are fricking GLADIATORS, they sacrafice days and months of thier lives for a brief span of time to be #1 in the ring. And believe me, that time span gets shorter every year as new contenders come up. These guys are physical specimens, they do nothing but work out and train for fighting for months on end.

They don't have regular jobs.
They sacrafice family and friends for training.
They sacrafice bodily injury, often lasting into old age.

I could go on, but the point you should see by now is that the majority of ANY group doesn't live or train this way. And even if you tried, it's not a pace you can keep up for very long...Life happens, things get in the way, you have to pay bills. Oh, and that $60,000.00 check? Umm, I hate to break this to you, but I make 15K more than that per year here in Seattle fixing computer networks. Not exactly the best return for your broken leg when you put it like that, huh? And you have to win FIRST PLACE to get the cash.

Whenever someone says "Well, that wouldn't work in the ring" the first thing I say is "Good thing I only fight OUT of the ring, huh?" Also, most people who throw that point out never fight in the ring themselves. The ones that do have a great respect for other martial arts, THEY KNOW how it goes down in the cage.

In the end, Pencak Silat is no more or less valid and effective than any other martial art out there. It still all comes down to the practitioner. A good fighter can make Yoga look deadly.

You know what I would REALLY like to see? This MMA concept on an offshore oil rig, in Inernational waters. Let's bring back some real fighting, for a change. Put the biting/eye gouging back in. No pads. It's an oil rig, I can only assume body disposal would be easy...Especially in the Pacific.

...Hmmmnn, what's missing here...What would be the hallmark of Silat...Lemme think... *IDEA!* GOT IT!

Somebody go grab a couple of knives. Now talk to me about the "clinch". Go on, tell me your "Shoot" method for a 6 inch razor across your throat. Because, kiddies, THAT'S PENCAK SILAT.

Dude, I would pay SOOOOOOOO much money to see that. We would have a whole new discussion about what doesn't work in the ring.

I'm curious if you actually have a response that has to do with the original question of the thread? :confused:

[Wali]

Sorry for the late reply.

There are two points on the vid that I wonder about. The first one isn't as floppish as the second one.

1) @4:27
This looks like it's some sort of scissor-leg takedown. Is that what it represents in this style. (yes I realize that this form of presentation is somewhat stylized)

This move looks like a 'Gunting' or Scissor sweep. It's use is to bring someone who is upright, while you are in a ground position. The cutting leg makes contact to the standing leg, normally the back of the opponents leg. This can be followed through with the other leg also and turn it into a leg lock.



2) @6:45
This is the one struck me right off as 'a big ass fish flop'... :D
Ok in all seriousness... what is it? Or rather what does it represent?


didn't see anything at 6:45, but there is something at 6:50, so I will assume this is what you mean? It looks like a close up strike to the head followed by an all-body takedown, with the opponents head and leg trapped, as they are taken down. Again, this is just my guess based on my experience with my silat style, and the real application for this clip may be quiet different. What else it may be I cannot tell though.

Hope this helps.

[slipthejab]

Ah ok... the first one make sense. A scissor leg takedown. Right got it.

The second one.. yes... lol... 6:50 forgive the mistake of 5 seconds. :p
ah ok... would have never guessed that's what this was meant to represent.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

As for the the martial value of those clips, I have never been, and never will be, impressed by people doing forms. Perhaps this is an impression formed in me from doing Shotokan, and seeing way too many people who could do quite a number of impressive looking kata, but couldn't explain the bunkai of any of them. If I see a very impressWhat's the point in learning them, then? If all you are going to do is forms, you might as well be doing Wushu or XMA. Don't get me wrong - I love wushu, but I love it because it acknowledges that it's all forms and flash. When someone is doing only forms, and claiming that it demonstrates combat ability - whether we're talking karate, CMA, Silat, or anything else - I find myself rather dubious.
If I were to see a very graceful performance of Bassai Dai, even if I'm intimately familiar with the application of the kata myself, I'm not going to be seriously impressed unless they can demonstrate it as well. Thus, when you say that the clip has martial value because you understand the application, that still has very little meaning to me.
I'm not asking to see the people in those demos fight off a vicious gain of flamethrower-wielding Gracies - I just want to see someone say "ok, that form we just did? Here are some actual applications of it for fighting." Until then, it's just fluff.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I would find a video like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F78Mx6_DaFs&mode=related&search=) infinitely more meaningful, because the person doing the demonstration is actually explaining how Silat works. It's a choreographed demonstration against a compliant opponent, but that's fine. While it doesn't mean I accept the legitimacy of the techniques he's showing, at least he's showing them. The first video showed nothing.

[Wali]

I would find a video like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F78Mx6_DaFs&mode=related&search=) infinitely more meaningful, because the person doing the demonstration is actually explaining how Silat works. It's a choreographed demonstration against a compliant opponent, but that's fine. While it doesn't mean I accept the legitimacy of the techniques he's showing, at least he's showing them. The first video showed nothing.
While we're sharing clips, here's a very short one from my teacher (both of them) demonstrating some basic striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcpq3cbDEw

(I don't know how to integrate the link into the text like shown above!)

[TheMightyMcClaw]

While we're sharing clips, here's a very short one from my teacher (both of them) demonstrating some basic striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcpq3cbDEw

(I don't know how to integrate the link into the text like shown above!)

Looks nice - I'm glad to see people integrating headbutts into their striking training.

[Bobster]

I'm curious if you actually have a response that has to do with the original question of the thread?

I do, but I am posting in response to the MMA points that were brought up earlier in this same thread. I'm curious if you actually read it?? :rolleyes:

[Gajah Silat]

Bobster,

I tend to agree with you about ring based mentality, but I've had my rants before and they don't seem to cut through :)

I personally think the all eggs in the ring mentality could be very dangerous in 'real life' but hey, what would I know :rolleyes:

Perhaps a spell of training/sparring on hard baked rocky ground at night might work, or how about a muddy slippery riverbank....but then again that's not the ring :D If all else fails, I'd like to see the ring answer when someone draws a parang....'cus that can happen in the West too ;)

Wali,

Can't view the clip as I've only got access to painfully slow dial up, but I'd be interested to see how you guys use the headbut, as we train with them too.

Slip,

Gorka has explained the clip is free 'play' and expression, allready. Many Silat styles encourage 'playing' with techniques and are not as rigid as other MAs with strict 'this is A, counter with B' forms.

It can be difficult for the western mindset to distinguish between play, dance, technique etc. Sometimes they might all be there :)

[gungfujoe]

I would find a video like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F78Mx6_DaFs&mode=related&search=) infinitely more meaningful, because the person doing the demonstration is actually explaining how Silat works. It's a choreographed demonstration against a compliant opponent, but that's fine. While it doesn't mean I accept the legitimacy of the techniques he's showing, at least he's showing them. The first video showed nothing.I've trained with Rob a few times; I can vouch for the legitimacy of the stuff he does. I'm not so sure I'd want to adopt his training practices, though. I seem to recall that he knees are in pretty bad shape and he attributed that to his training. Still, for the time being, while his knees are working for him, I wouldn't want to have to tangle with him. :)
While we're sharing clips, here's a very short one from my teacher (both of them) demonstrating some basic striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcpq3cbDEw I found the poor production quality to be too distracting to get much out of the clip on the first viewing. Half of the guy's head is off the top of the frame while he's talking to the camera. Interesting stuff, once you get past that, though.

[SundaWarrior]

Back to the original topic of Cimande Macan Guling,
I am surprised to see all the negative comments.
Cimande Macan Guling is a traditional style from
Banten. Every thing you see has several possible applications - not just one. Pencak Silat teaches you
the movement first - not just for demonstration or show-
but to develop "Rasa" or feeling. This feeling then becomes part of you and gvies you power. Notice in the
video Cecep flows seemlessly from fast to slow, soft to powerful, this is the true "Rasa" of Pencak Silat. I guess it
is kind of comparable to the development of Chi in Tai Chi systems except for the fact that the movements vary from fast to slow,soft to powerful and can be modified according to the Murid (student)'s character.

[slipthejab]

I do, but I am posting in response to the MMA points that were brought up earlier in this same thread. I'm curious if you actually read it?? :rolleyes:

Nope. It didn't really have anything to do with the original question that I asked. And since I wasn't hoping for some big knock down drag out brawl between MMA practitioners and Silat people... it really wasn't relevant.
Sorry. :D

[slipthejab]

I am surprised to see all the negative comments.

I'm not. Not really.
I simply asked the original question... I got a good answer. The whole MMA vs. Silat thing really isn't my bag. That sort of argument is never really going to go anywhere for either side frankly.

[Gajah Silat]

I'm not. Not really.
I simply asked the original question... I got a good answer. The whole MMA vs. Silat thing really isn't my bag. That sort of argument is never really going to go anywhere for either side frankly.

Indeed, a 'Pointless X vs Y' section is long overdue :rolleyes:

However, we often do have to suffer disparaging and patronising intrusions by invincible MMA warriors in many of our threads. I think the tendency to 'pick on' the minority MA Silat says a lot more about those individuals that choose to do this....and yes I fully appreciate they are the minority and are not representative of their respective MA counterparts. Given this, the odd angry retort is to be expected.

For the most part, we retort with valid and reasoned arguements.....'the ring is a sanitised environment within which individuals will act within certain parameters' is one of these. A statement like this is clearly not stating ring based arts are not effective and I'm sure no-one here thinks that way.

Of course there is also the fact that in most of the world, if you are going to die in a confrontation it will be on the end of an edged weapon. However, apparently drug dealers, Columbians and Americans also like to shoot each other ;)

Anyway, enough said :Angel:

[Trent Beach]

While we're sharing clips, here's a very short one from my teacher (both of them) demonstrating some basic striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcpq3cbDEw

(I don't know how to integrate the link into the text like shown above!)

Yes, good basic stuff, and with good body movement. I also don't know of any legitimate silat schools that don't show movements for applying in a fight right out of the jurus and langkas.

[Silat Junkie]

This post has already been responded to much but still, I thought I would respond.

Personally, I really enjoy it. I agree with Nadzrin, Tellner, SundaWarrior and several others. Silat isn't always about application when it is performed as it is in the demo. It is a reflection of spirit and sort of like a movement aptitude test. The movements themselves may have several applications. As for flow, it's full of flow. It is something we call wave energy in our group and it is described really quite well by Sunda Warrior.

The guys seems adept to me. True, applications would verify that but in the context of what I see, it seems to be a gathering for enjoyment rather than blood.

IMO, silat has a leg up on other arts in this regard because it allows the practitioners to not only have the ability to apply the art, but to express it as an emotional outlet just for the enjoyment of the movement. Pencak Silat, is not limited to either/or expressions or types of training but should be done as combative, artistic, socially beneficial, spiritually beneficial, and perhaps other facets as well. This might include silat for dance at weddings (a tradition), village gatherings, as prayer, and any of a number of things.