Fan fighting

[electrobes]

Does ahyone here train in Fan fighting? I would like to but know very little about it.. have a bamboo training fan and a small book, but want to know more. Some questions are 1) Do I need to know a prior martial art? 2) what books or videos are best to teach me fan fighting? 3) What are the order in types of fans should I learn... like going from bamboo to full metal ones? Thanks everyone!

[electrobes]

Man I would figure weapon to be a bit more populat considering its still legal to carry.. well the bamboo ones... I think : ) - I have always wanted to learn, and my fiancee even bought me a staineless steel one too, but I know not a soul in Gaineville who knows how to wield it. Luckily Escrima is around... yay!

[Patrick Bateman]

Yeah dude but its a fan!! Cant be walkin round with a fan!! Would ruin my cool exteria and super smooth style!!!

[electrobes]

Hahaha, sheesh... I like my fan! :* ( I wish I knew how to properly use one but don't think anyone teaches it around here : (

[Mike Flanagan]

I think you would benefit from doing another martial art to complement and make sense of the fan techniques. Any short stick system is bound to be helpful, but probably so would an empty-hand system.

Mike

[electrobes]

Yeah... we'll see I am going to try to find escrima classes to view and make a decision from there. Oddly enough its that or kick boxing.. thus far the empty handed technique I like as of present (like using mainly legs)

[Coyote]

Any of y'all want to come to Orrville or Wooster, Ohio, I can set you up with a very good instructor in the fan...

As for whether or not you need to study another martial art before learning fan, I'm not sure. I am sure that it couldn't hurt you, as many of the techniques you use open hand are duplicated when using a fan. Heck, kicks don't change at all. :)

[Tsing Tao]

you do not need to study another style of martial arts to use the fan properly. but if possible try to find some style that requires strong wrists it helps in many techniques of the fan as well as escrima. Strong wrists make your movements with the escrima and fan stronger, faster, and more precise and acurate.

[ksw]

The art I study (Kuk Sool Won) does teach fan techniques at around 3rd degree. I don't know very much about these techniques (only seen them demonstrated once), but it sure was neat.

[cloudgodd]

There are some really good tessen techniques in Hatsumi's stick fighting book starting on page 72

[Geisha Girl]

Any of y'all want to come to Orrville or Wooster, Ohio, I can set you up with a very good instructor in the fan...

As for whether or not you need to study another martial art before learning fan, I'm not sure. I am sure that it couldn't hurt you, as many of the techniques you use open hand are duplicated when using a fan. Heck, kicks don't change at all. :)
I saw these fighting fans online and they are beautiful . I want to learn to use one. Can you suggest where I might find more info on the use and method and maybe history.

[StorDuff]

heh, if you find out clue us in too :o

[Ukyo77]

it seems that everyone wants to know about fighting fans, but nobody acually knows anything. i am very interested in the subject too, but dont even know how the hell a fan can be used as a weapon...so any info you guys obtain, please share :)

[CrimsonDemon]

it seems that everyone wants to know about fighting fans, but nobody acually knows anything. i am very interested in the subject too, but dont even know how the hell a fan can be used as a weapon...so any info you guys obtain, please share :)


Ditto.

[Davey Bones]

Some basic info:

A closed fan can be used to strike like a baton or short stick. It can also be used to strike pressure points. If sharpened/beveled, the ribs also make effective knives when the fan is closed.

When open, the fan has several uses. While a closed fan can be used to parry or block, it seems that the open fan is more of a choice for that (it's certainly flashier). While open, the fan functions as mostly a slashing weapon, although a it is also an effective thrusting weapon. An open fan can also be used to snatch weapons by using the spaces in between the ribs to catch small, bladed weapons; the idea is to disarm your opponent by catching the weapon between ribs, snapping the fan closed, and then disarming your opponent.

The fan is a distinctly Chinese weapon, IMO, which is why you don't see it around too much. I hear that KSW, a Korean art, has fan forms, but as I've never seen them I won't comment. I'm not familiar with any Japanese styles which teach the fan actively, although they had them. Do your research there ;)

The fan is probably one of the hardest weapons to learn from a book due to the many ways it can be used. Heck, there are a number of different hand positions used just to snap the thing open. Find an instructor willing to teach it; learning it outside of a school will be most difficult.

[Wolf]

I don't know if there's a fan form in KSW, as I've never seen it (though i've heard rumors there is one at master level I think). There is a set of fan striking techniques that use all of the aspects of the fan that you just mentioned. And let me tell you, having been on the receiving end of them as my instructor was training, THEY HURT A LOT! That's with out full force attacks.

[KSW_123]

Kuk Sool Won does have fans, but if you want to learn them now then look elsewhere. It takes about 10-12 years to get to the fan stuff.

[Slindsay]

Some basic info:

A closed fan can be used to strike like a baton or short stick. It can also be used to strike pressure points. If sharpened/beveled, the ribs also make effective knives when the fan is closed.

When open, the fan has several uses. While a closed fan can be used to parry or block, it seems that the open fan is more of a choice for that (it's certainly flashier). While open, the fan functions as mostly a slashing weapon, although a it is also an effective thrusting weapon. An open fan can also be used to snatch weapons by using the spaces in between the ribs to catch small, bladed weapons; the idea is to disarm your opponent by catching the weapon between ribs, snapping the fan closed, and then disarming your opponent.

The fan is a distinctly Chinese weapon, IMO, which is why you don't see it around too much. I hear that KSW, a Korean art, has fan forms, but as I've never seen them I won't comment. I'm not familiar with any Japanese styles which teach the fan actively, although they had them. Do your research there ;)

The fan is probably one of the hardest weapons to learn from a book due to the many ways it can be used. Heck, there are a number of different hand positions used just to snap the thing open. Find an instructor willing to teach it; learning it outside of a school will be most difficult.

Have you ever used a fan for actually sparring? I'm just really curious what that would look like.

[Davey Bones]

Sadly no. I've picked up some stuff from our school's fan expert, and some stuff is self-taught based on the stuff she showed me.

I'm pushing Sifu to let me do fans when I hit next rank and learn the forms and how to spar with them, but I'm not sure it's gonna happen :( I'll get back to you in about 6 months!

I'm a great theorist, lol. And a really good technician. But I am bound by Sifu :p

[pgsmith]

The Japanese used the iron fan, tessen, quite a bit during the Tokugawa era. Here's a nice little article about it ... http://www.e-budokai.com/hibuki/tessen.htm

[JKN-Taylor]

I hear that KSW, a Korean art, has fan forms, but as I've never seen them I won't comment.

From what I've seen (had used against me) I was very impressed.

Though being only Jyo Kyo Nim, I have years before I start (though I have only seen female PSBN and KJNs working with fans... no idea if men get to use them).

[Kogusoku]

The Japanese used the iron fan, tessen, quite a bit during the Tokugawa era. Here's a nice little article about it ... http://www.e-budokai.com/hibuki/tessen.htm

There are still quite a few koryu that still train with tessen. Kiraku-ryu, Araki-ryu Gunyo Kogusoku, Takenouchi-ryu, Sosuishi-ryu, Shibukawa Ichi-ryu, Muso Shinden Jushin-ryu Tsumeai batto, and Kukishin-ryu. There are more but I can't think of the rest off the top of my head :)

I learned quite a few tessen kata in the Araki-ryu dojo I trained at when I used to live in Japan full time. Three words: HURTS LIKE HELL!

[Wax]

In a shop in chinatown here there is a series of DVD's teaching the forms. My chickie uses them to compliment her training and they appear quite good. Last time I was in there they had a fan form DVD. I can't remember the name of the series but it had a yellowish cover.

[pgsmith]

There are still quite a few koryu that still train with tessen. Kiraku-ryu, Araki-ryu Gunyo Kogusoku, Takenouchi-ryu, Sosuishi-ryu, Shibukawa Ichi-ryu, Muso Shinden Jushin-ryu Tsumeai batto, and Kukishin-ryu. There are more but I can't think of the rest off the top of my head
I've seen a couple of demonstrations, but have never had the opportunity to learn any of it. I imagine it would hurt like hell! :)

[Sojiro]

i came across something interesting when reading up on a famous swordsman named Miyamoto Musashi, the dude rumoured (by legend) to fight with a Katana and Wakizashi, when infact it seems he wouldv'e rather duelled with two Bokken than live blades.

Anyways, here's the deal...

Sword Vs Fan (????)

Sometime after his duel with Gunbei - after he starting questioning the essence of things - Musashi was supposed to have answered a challenge to a duel by fighting with a steel Fan. Fans, while an unusual weapon, are not unheard of in Chinese or Japanese fighting arts. Musashi was meant to have utilised the fan as such whereby his opponent could not best him... eventually the duel ended with the surrender of the frustrated opponent. Neither were hurt. This example is usually cited to explain the mindset behind the superior swordsman Musashi had become - he understood the essence of swordsmanship therefore any other weapon (or art, example = calligraphy) was an extension of this.

source: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1553/duels.html

Miyamoto Musashi was one interesting Martial Artist.

[Kogusoku]

Probably held him at bay with seigan.

Hyaku would probably know more about this particular story.

[AirNick]

I know the set of fan techniques in Kuk Sool Won and really like them. Our fans are wooden and have feathers on the end. Apparently in the olden days, they were metal and the feathers were there to hide spikes in the end.

The techniques use all aspects of the fan: striking with the side of the fan, pressure point striking with the 'butt' of the fan, stabbing with the open fan, disorientating with the open fan.

Master Byung In Lee does a great sword vs. fan routine.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

I've just seen how many of you don't know anything/know very little about tessenjutsu, so i thought i'd come and tell you all about it. I currently study tessenjutsu (art of the fan) and hav been doin so for the past couple of years. :D I came across tessenjutsu in my Ju Jutsu class that ive been doing for the past 4 yrs, when my Sensei decided to tell the club about it, and i asked him if he would teach me. Luckily enough, he agreed, so ive been practicing tessenjutsu as well as jujutsu ever since.

Feel free to ask me stuff about tessenjutsu, and i'll answer if i can :D

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

Originally Posted by GangrelChilde
Some basic info:

A closed fan can be used to strike like a baton or short stick. It can also be used to strike pressure points. If sharpened/beveled, the ribs also make effective knives when the fan is closed.

When open, the fan has several uses. While a closed fan can be used to parry or block, it seems that the open fan is more of a choice for that (it's certainly flashier). While open, the fan functions as mostly a slashing weapon, although a it is also an effective thrusting weapon. An open fan can also be used to snatch weapons by using the spaces in between the ribs to catch small, bladed weapons; the idea is to disarm your opponent by catching the weapon between ribs, snapping the fan closed, and then disarming your opponent.

The fan is a distinctly Chinese weapon, IMO, which is why you don't see it around too much. I hear that KSW, a Korean art, has fan forms, but as I've never seen them I won't comment. I'm not familiar with any Japanese styles which teach the fan actively, although they had them. Do your research there

The fan is probably one of the hardest weapons to learn from a book due to the many ways it can be used. Heck, there are a number of different hand positions used just to snap the thing open. Find an instructor willing to teach it; learning it outside of a school will be most difficult.


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I don't mean to be rude, but the fan is far from distinctly chinese. In feudal Japan, the Samurai were trained with a bladed fan made of bone or steel to carry around as a discrete weapon that no one would recognise as a weapon. The fan (tessen) was a concealment weapon, used to hide small weapons such as darts, knives and shuriken. IN one of the kata's i know, yuo keep a dagger/knife in your belt at your back. Then, you spin round towards your opponent, feign a strike with the base of the fan with one hand, whilst at the same time with the other hand, striking across your opponents face with the knife, to startle the opponent and convince them it was the fan that cut them. :D quite sneaky! lol

ANyway, the fan is not chinese, altho chinese martial arts (wushu/tai chi) may use it, it was originally used as a secret weapon for samurai.

[Davey Bones]

Go ask the guys in the Kung Fu forum about lineages... I'm sure they'll be happy to enlighten you about the fact that kung fu is like, totally t3h deadly and your Japanese stuff is just a bastardization of some ancient Chinese secret. :rolleyes: (Personally, I don't care any more) BTW, I have the same move in my old Chinese fan form. ;)

Anyway, good for you for finding someone who claims to teach the fan. Have fun, it's a great weapon that few really "get". I've moved on to another art, but still practice the forms every now and then.

[19thlohan]

ANyway, the fan is not chinese, altho chinese martial arts (wushu/tai chi) may use it, it was originally used as a secret weapon for samurai.

LOL! You should probably research how old CMA fan techniques and the samurai are before telling every one where things originated.

[Kogusoku]

I've just seen how many of you don't know anything/know very little about tessenjutsu, so i thought i'd come and tell you all about it. I currently study tessenjutsu (art of the fan) and hav been doin so for the past couple of years. :D I came across tessenjutsu in my Ju Jutsu class that ive been doing for the past 4 yrs, when my Sensei decided to tell the club about it, and i asked him if he would teach me. Luckily enough, he agreed, so ive been practicing tessenjutsu as well as jujutsu ever since.

Feel free to ask me stuff about tessenjutsu, and i'll answer if i can :D

x-Tessenjutsu-x, what jujutsu ryuha are you currently studying? Are you studying a gendai or a koryu?

[pauli]

i've known a lot of people who knew fan kata, but i've yet to meet one who actually trained in fighting with them.

[Davey Bones]

LOL! You should probably research how old CMA fan techniques and the samurai are before telling every one where things originated.

thanks ;) I've been told I need to be more polite, so... you took the words right out of my mouth. Let's face it, he's 14, and training under a JJJ instructor. Of course he's learning that the samurai were all that and a bag of chips! Go to a CMA school, learn the fan, and then you've got the shaolin monks being all that and a bag of chips. There's hardly any love lost among the chinese, japanese and koreans, and it certainly reflects in the multiple histories of every asian weapon out there.

[Kogusoku]

thanks ;) I've been told I need to be more polite, so... you took the words right out of my mouth. Let's face it, he's 14, and training under a JJJ instructor. Of course he's learning that the samurai were all that and a bag of chips! Go to a CMA school, learn the fan, and then you've got the shaolin monks being all that and a bag of chips. There's hardly any love lost among the chinese, japanese and koreans, and it certainly reflects in the multiple histories of every asian weapon out there.

It's probably more like a bit of adolescent hero-worship. I'll bet there's even a bit of anime involved as well.

There are only a small handful of clasical schools that still teach and train tessenjutsu. There are times depending on the ryuha in question, when it is used like a kodachi (Japanese shortsword) or as a force multiplier for striking techniques and joint-locking techniques.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

It's probably more like a bit of adolescent hero-worship. I'll bet there's even a bit of anime involved as well.

There are only a small handful of clasical schools that still teach and train tessenjutsu. There are times depending on the ryuha in question, when it is used like a kodachi (Japanese shortsword) or as a force multiplier for striking techniques and joint-locking techniques.



I'll have you know I am not so naive that I would 'worship' as you put it, any alleged 'heroes' of any description. Plus, I would not degrade myself so by watching those irritating Japanese cartoons. I'm only trying to help those who were asking about fan fighting, I did not come here for people to judge me and my opinions.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

thanks ;) I've been told I need to be more polite, so... you took the words right out of my mouth. Let's face it, he's 14, and training under a JJJ instructor. Of course he's learning that the samurai were all that and a bag of chips! Go to a CMA school, learn the fan, and then you've got the shaolin monks being all that and a bag of chips. There's hardly any love lost among the chinese, japanese and koreans, and it certainly reflects in the multiple histories of every asian weapon out there.
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There's no need to be so patronizing and rude, I only came here to try to help people who wanted to know about tessenjutsu. I'll also inform you that my opinions are not so easily swayed by a teacher.
P.S-You clearly haven't listened to whoever told you to be more polite, and whats with you and your bags of chips?!

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

x-Tessenjutsu-x, what jujutsu ryuha are you currently studying? Are you studying a gendai or a koryu?
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I'd say it's koryu, because koryu occasionally uses 'secret' weapons like tanto and tessen, as ive said before.
Thanks for expressing interest! :DYoure most likely the first person who has been remotely nice to me and not tried to bite the head off me.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

Oh, and by the way, what pray tell does jjj instructor mean?

[19thlohan]

Japanese ju jitsu

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

ah right, thanx!:D

[Davey Bones]

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There's no need to be so patronizing and rude, I only came here to try to help people who wanted to know about tessenjutsu. I'll also inform you that my opinions are not so easily swayed by a teacher.
P.S-You clearly haven't listened to whoever told you to be more polite, and whats with you and your bags of chips?!

It's not patronizing or rude, it's the sad but honest truth. The Koreans generally don't pay much mind to the Chinese roots of their arts, neither do the Japanese. There is, as I said, no love lost among the three countries, and the fact of the matter is that your JJJ instructor is probably handing you a history he was taught which is probably been handed down with the cultural baggage, It's not your fault, you're 14 and new to MA. This isn't exactly the most well-known fact.

And knock off the drama about the bag of chips comment, I said the same thing about the chinese shaolin monks. For me, that was polite.

[slipthejab]

On a historical note the Akomeogi or folding fan was invented in Japan around the 8th century and was introduced into China by around the 9th century... where it didn't become popular until around the Ming Dynasty.

China already had fans... as did many civilizations. But the fans predating the introduction of the Japan folding fan were a completely different style. One only has to look through any of the pre-Ming painting to see numerous screen fans in use at the royal courts.

Here's an interesting bit:

War fans in history and folklore

One particularly famous legend involving war fans concerns a direct confrontation between Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin at the fourth battle of Kawanakajima in 1561. Kenshin burst into Shingen's command tent on horseback, having broken through his entire army, and attacked, his sword was deflected by Shingen's war fan. It is not clear whether Shingen parried with a tessen, a dansen uchiwa, or some other form of fan. Nevertheless, it was quite rare for commanders to fight directly, and especially for a general to defend himself so effectively when taken so off-guard.

Minamoto no Yo*****une is said to have defeated the great warrior monk Benkei with a tessen.

Araki Murashige is said to have used a tessen to save his life when the great warlord Oda Nobunaga sought to assassinate him. Araki was invited before Nobunaga, and was stripped of his swords at the entrance to the mansion, as was customary. When he performed the customary bowing at the threshold, Nobunaga intended to have the room's sliding doors slammed shut onto Araki's neck, killing him. However, Araki supposedly placed his tessen in the grooves in the floor, blocking the doors from closing.

The Yagyū clan, sword instructors to the Tokugawa shoguns, included tessenjutsu in their swordschool, the Yagyū Shinkage-ryū.

I'm curious if there are any mentions of iron war fans in the Chinese historical record?
:confused:

And if so what sort of dates are we looking at?
:confused:

[Kogusoku]

I'll have you know I am not so naive that I would 'worship' as you put it, any alleged 'heroes' of any description. Plus, I would not degrade myself so by watching those irritating Japanese cartoons. I'm only trying to help those who were asking about fan fighting, I did not come here for people to judge me and my opinions.

Steady on. I apologize if I am incorrect, but your terminology when you first participated in this thread was a bit "heavy" shall we say. That factored in with your age (offence meant) kind of gave way to all sorts of ideas.

I'd say it's koryu, because koryu occasionally uses 'secret' weapons like tanto and tessen, as ive said before.
Thanks for expressing interest! Youre most likely the first person who has been remotely nice to me and not tried to bite the head off me.

With all due respect, just because your school uses tanto and tessen, does not mean that the budo you are studying at the moment is a koryu. What is the name of the ryuha that you are studying?

[Rock Ape]

Steve san, you in the UK or Japan at the mo ?

[Kogusoku]

Steve san, you in the UK or Japan at the mo ?

You have a PM mate.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

Steady on. I apologize if I am incorrect, but your terminology when you first participated in this thread was a bit "heavy" shall we say. That factored in with your age (offence meant) kind of gave way to all sorts of ideas.



With all due respect, just because your school uses tanto and tessen, does not mean that the budo you are studying at the moment is a koryu. What is the name of the ryuha that you are studying?
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OH rite, sorry, i didnt know what you meant! lol
Its called IJJO. u can find the site on the internet

P.S-You do mean the name of the jujutsu style dont you? :D

[Kogusoku]

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OH rite, sorry, i didnt know what you meant! lol
Its called IJJO. u can find the site on the internet

P.S-You do mean the name of the jujutsu style dont you? :D

Yep, the particular name of the school of jujutsu you do (e.g. Takenouchi-ryu, Takagi-ryu, Shten-ryu etc.)

[splice]

IJJO probably means the "Irish JuJutsu Organization" headed by Dominic McCloskey, 4th dan (no mention from where), which seems to teach an art they call "IJJO Jutsu". Their web site says one reason to join the IJJO is that it's "A well structured system that takes you step by step in a progressive way towards your ultimate goal of being an IJJO black belt". An old page says they also teach "other arts such as Ken Jutsu, Bokken Jutsu, Bo Jutsu etc. ".

No mention of a link to Japan other than "Many differing styles of Ju Jutsu have been practiced in Japan for hundreds of years. IJJO Jutsu brings to our members many of the best aspects of these." Doesn't really look like koryu...

[Kogusoku]

Bokkenjutsu?

There's no such thing.

There's kenjutsu, that uses a bokuto/bokken for training, drills and kata.

There's kendo which mainly uses the yotsu-wari shinai, and bokuto for kata training and kihon.

There's iaido/iaijutsu which, depending on the school uses special sheathed bokuto/bokken for sword drawing drills & again, kata.

In a nutshell, that's it. No such animal as bokkenjutsu in budo.

[pgsmith]

Its called IJJO. u can find the site on the internet
A search for IJJO brought me to this ... International Juvenile Justice Observatory. I assume that's not where you train?
Bokkenjutsu?
There's no such thing.
Hey Steve,
Perhaps bokkenjutsu is something that they teach alongside the "yari jutsu" that is listed on their terminology page. :D

[Kogusoku]

http://whatchutalkinboutwillis.com/img/whatchutitle.jpg

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

A search for IJJO brought me to this ... International Juvenile Justice Observatory. I assume that's not where you train?

Hey Steve,
Perhaps bokkenjutsu is something that they teach alongside the "yari jutsu" that is listed on their terminology page. :D
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I dont know what's so funny about "yari jutsu", would you care to enlighten me?

[ScottUK]

There is a DVD available showing Fay Goodman using nicho-tessen if you're interested:

http://www.lovefilm.com/visitor/product/25620-Seni.html

[Oroshi]

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I dont know what's so funny about "yari jutsu", would you care to enlighten me?
It's funny for the same reason that "bokkenjutsu" is funny.

(Hi everyone!)

[ScottUK]

(Hi everyone!)YOu following me around?

Is bakajutsu funny? ;)

[Polar Bear]

I read this thread thinking well maybe I could get excited about fighting with a fan but seriously it never happened. They just aren't cool enough to get excited about. Swords, Axes, Spears, Bows hell even maces I can get but devoting hours of study to fighting with a fan! What happens when you get your black belt does that make you a fan-dan.

The Bear.

[Bahng Uh Ki]

What happens when you get your black belt does that make you a fan-dan.Or a dan-fan? I'd not laugh at either one. In one person's hands, it is just a fan, in another's, a weapon. Maybe it couidn't stand against a sword, but your empty hands probably couldn't either.

Different weapons for different applications. When you are all dressed up in your finest clothes, you might not even have your pocket knife with you if someone comes and tries to rob you. If you have a fan in your hands, why drop it and risk tripping over it if you have it in your hands? Maybe he has a knife and you'd rather risk cutting up the fan than your hands. Aside from applicaiton, it is a pretty weapon. Nothing wrong with being pretty.

[Polar Bear]

yeah of course I missed the 60s Glasgow fan gangs who with a camp flick of the wrist sent the hard men running for cover. I'm sorry but I just waiting for someone to mention war chopsticks.

The Bear.

[Kogusoku]

I read this thread thinking well maybe I could get excited about fighting with a fan but seriously it never happened. They just aren't cool enough to get excited about. Swords, Axes, Spears, Bows hell even maces I can get but devoting hours of study to fighting with a fan! What happens when you get your black belt does that make you a fan-dan.

The Bear.

If you find out that it's a force multiplier for jujutsu atemi and kansetsu waza as well as the fact that in some schools, it's taught as a high level technique, on par with the kodachi, would that interest you?

[koyo]

Below , one of the most famous encounters in Japanese history. Takeda Shingen deflects an attack from Uesugi Kenshin with his tessen.
Edit
I find it difficult to imagine a polar bear with a fan but I have seen one with a german longsword. :D

[Polar Bear]

Trust a Takeda to bring a fan to a sword fight.


The Bear.

[Polar Bear]

If you find out that it's a force multiplier for jujutsu atemi and kansetsu waza as well as the fact that in some schools, it's taught as a high level technique, on par with the kodachi, would that interest you?

No, still too pathetic an excuse for a weapon style. Sorry.

The Bear.

[splice]

I read this thread thinking well maybe I could get excited about fighting with a fan but seriously it never happened. They just aren't cool enough to get excited about.

Because the foremost concern of any martial artist is to look cool and get people excited about their performance, obviously. :rolleyes:

Maybe martial arts aren't really for you, and what you should be doing is twirling swords that are on fire. That sounds pretty exciting. Have at it.

[koyo]

Dear God Splice

You have to see a bear weilding a German Longsword before you suggest that he set it on fire. Have a thought for those of us who train with him.

regards koyo

[Polar Bear]

Dear God Splice

You have to see a bear weilding a German Longsword before you suggest that he set it on fire. Have a thought for those of us who train with him.

regards koyo

Aww come on, I've only be doing german longsword 2 weeks. I'm sure flaming swords is week 5 or 6.

Hey Splice,
I'm not challenging your masculinity or anything, honest. I mean a mans home is his castle and what he does with his fans is his own affair. Just saying for me choice between fan and sword .... hmmm well I'm gonna be honest I would feel a little camp with a fan, that's all.

The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

Please tell me this discussion has not degraded into the relative masculinity of the war fan versus other weapons?!?

[Kogusoku]

Please tell me this discussion has not degraded into the relative masculinity of the war fan versus other weapons?!?

Alas, it has more's the pity. :rolleyes:

There's nothing sissy about an iron fan. Especially when you get hit with one or have a kansetsu waza applied with one as a force multiplier. Trust me, you will dance. Bear, suggest you find some security in your masculinity. ;) A weapon is a weapon and they all bloody hurt.

Anyway. :topic:

[Stolenbjorn]

First off, in order to be a real man, you have to be able to perform sissy/girlish activities without beeing embarrased (I don't mean to insinuate that a fan is girlish... I think :p )

Secondly, I think that Personally, I wouln't expend my precious time on fan-fighting-training. Not because it's not relevant (if you do the relevant branch of tma), but because I have to prioritize. Besides; isn't there possible to transfer knowledge from one area to another?

In Fiores (Rondell)Dagger-section in his fighting manual Fiore di Battaglia /Flos duellatorum, he actually shows one technique where he uses a pair of gloves instead of his dagger :)

[Kogusoku]

In Fiores (Rondell)Dagger-section in his fighting manual Fiore di Battaglia /Flos duellatorum, he actually shows one technique where he uses a pair of gloves instead of his dagger :)

There it is; One mind, any weapon.

[nickh]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Its called IJJO. u can find the site on the internet



Uh oh ...

My experience is that any time I come across something ending in -JJO (or -JJA) it is a fraud, teaching some made-up style.

You may be lucky enough to have found an exception to this rule, but if you are really after a genuine Japanese art you should do some serious checking to make sure that you are getting what is claimed.

[Lily]

Originally posted by Kogusoku: A weapon is a weapon and they all bloody hurt.

You hit the nail on the head.

Polar - come on, you can't be so close minded as to let a 'tool' faze you? No one asked you to choose between a sword and a fan. Everything is a weapon if you can think outside the box ;)

koyo - sensational as always :D

[Polar Bear]

You hit the nail on the head.

Polar - come on, you can't be so close minded as to let a 'tool' faze you? No one asked you to choose between a sword and a fan. Everything is a weapon if you can think outside the box ;)

koyo - sensational as always :D

I can view the fan as a weapon of opportunity not something worth serious study. In my opinon it is an affectation of an effete culture and not a practical weapon of war. Certainly doesn't justify "tessen-jutsu".
As for the Political Correct brigade, I'm not buying, you can spout off about challenged sexuality all you want however I am a man and reserve the right to decide what I define as manly.
If you think the fan is a serious weapon then do some sparring against some "real" weapons, video it and post it. Then I will look and perhaps be convinced.

The Bear.

[koyo]

I would agree with the bear (someone has to :Angel: ) that the fan is a weapon of opportunity.Some fans were "customised" to enable strikes and thrust, even sharpend at the edges and when opened could deliver nasty slashing strokes. Not to go off topic but in the new Bourne film he uses a hardback book thrusting it into the throat then backfisting it then uses it to augment elbow strikes. So it is of course down to anything can be a weapon in the right hands and circumstance.



regards koyo

[Davey Bones]

I can view the fan as a weapon of opportunity not something worth serious study. In my opinon it is an affectation of an effete culture and not a practical weapon of war. Certainly doesn't justify "tessen-jutsu".
As for the Political Correct brigade, I'm not buying, you can spout off about challenged sexuality all you want however I am a man and reserve the right to decide what I define as manly.
If you think the fan is a serious weapon then do some sparring against some "real" weapons, video it and post it. Then I will look and perhaps be convinced.

The Bear.

Spoken like someone who's never been hit by two pounds of solid steel. :rolleyes:

[Polar Bear]

Spoken like someone who's never been hit by two pounds of solid steel. :rolleyes:

Shall I await your video posting then or can we just leave fans in samurai larpland where it belongs?


The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

I do armbars now, but I'm also not the one who refers to the fans as "an affectation of an effete culture and not a practical weapon of war" and comments that "I am a man and reserve the right to decide what I define as manly" or better yet, "If you think the fan is a serious weapon then do some sparring against some "real" weapons". :rolleyes: Your internet challenges bore me, but your ignorance of the weapon speaks volumes. It IS a real weapon, and I wonder why you're so quick to dismiss it? Ever use one? Try one? Fight against one?

[Polar Bear]

Ok since you are so knowledgable on the war fan.
Has the war fan ever been used as a battlefield weapon i.e. used to equip troops?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tessen.jpg
versus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Espadon-Morges.jpg


I envy you if you have already mastered the core weapons and that you are able to learn the fan as a novelty.

The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

I've experience with the following chinese weapons:

-straight sword
-staff
-spear
-single steel fan

I've also experimented with the sai, butterfly swords, three-sectioned staff (*never again*!), and the double short sticks. Please don't presume to tell me what is and isn't "useful" and what is and isn't a "novelty". Simply because it wasn't carried around by a thug or two doesn't make it an ineffective or useless weapon.

[Polar Bear]

Domino, a chair is useful as weapon but it doesn't warrant chair-jutsu does it?

I have trained with many weapons too. I have also worked as a bouncer in Glasgow pubs and believe me I have seen stiletto heels, bottles, glasses, a plastic viking helmet with horns (sorry stolenbjorn) and even a microphone used as an improvised weapon but none of these have an associated martial style.


The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

Then to avoid me possibly saying something to get me binned again, I'll say very politely that we will have to agree to disagree.

[Kogusoku]

The reason why tessen and other hidden weapons, or hibuki came into play is a historical one. In Japan during the Tokugawa shogunate's rule, it was forbidden for bushi to duel or even draw their swords in public, on pain of ordered ritual suicide and the seizing of family holdings if the duellist was really unlucky.

In royal and shogunate court, a certain dress code was required, with that, a specific short sword was carried. It's tsuka-gashira (Hilt butt) was not glued to the hilt or cord. It was merely for ceremony, if it was to be drawn, the user would find himself holding a tsuka-gashira and a bunch of tsuka-maki (hilt binding).

This is one of the reasons why such a plethora of hidden weapons came apparent in post-warring states period Japan.

Instead of cutting down your enemy with a shortsword indoors, you sometimes had to resort to using a solid lump of iron, shaped like a fan to avoid suspicion and crack your enemy's head open with it. Not a battlefield weapon whatsoever, but a great number of ryuha use the weapon against sword wielding enemies in practically the same way as kogusoku (close combat techniques with a shortsword - Almost Rondel Dagger work - jujutsu and kodachijutsu) except of course, the weapon is a of a percussion type rather than of the cutting type.

Now with that being all said, let's keep the discussion friendly with no more silliness of calling koryu bujutsu LARPing. No more peeing-contests.

Shall I await your video posting then or can we just leave fans in samurai larpland where it belongs?

If learning archaic Japanese weaponry and it's historical and cultural intricacies is to be defined as LARPing, then what you do with Highland broadsword is exactly the same, no? Try and remain respectful and polite in what you write. Thank you.

[Polar Bear]

I apologise Kugosoku, my humor can come across as combative to those who are sensitive. The next time I encounter a student of this style I will respectfully request a friendly demonstration of martial efficacy of this historically significant style of fighting.

The Bear.

[koyo]

Hi Bear

Below a demonstration of fan against sword.(now can I get my viking helmet back?)

regards koyo

[Davey Bones]

Funny thing, too, you guys are missing the Chinese fans completely. Chinese steel fans were bludgeoning, piecing, AND slashing weapons. It looks like the Japanese ones were either open (the Tessen shield) or closed (the tessen), whereas the Chinese fans are used both open and closed. Is that accurate re: Japanese fans?

[Polar Bear]

http://www.niagarahealthguide.com/glenridge-martial-arts/sensei-picard-fan-lg.jpg

Is this the type you mean?

The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

Yeah, but mine are steel, not whatever wimpy wood that stuff is. More like this: http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-08b.html

Description: Black nylon fabric with pheonix design. Constructed with stainless steel. There are approximately 13 stainless bars attached to the nylon fabric giving the fan an overall weights of 1 lb. The folded height is 12 1/2''. When opened the width is approximately 23 1/2''.

[Polar Bear]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i8v3ODdo7I

I see the obvious power of the fan now.

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRA6RshaUiQ

for japanese.

The Bear.

[Davey Bones]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoO0SBBHH7k&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtNhoDBqoGY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68jbEjiwfTI&mode=related&search=

Those are a tad better. most of the ones I found are T'ai Chi and therefore slower. Try the last link, it's a bit faster. *grumble* Of course, in all fairness, a big guy like you isn't necessarily going to appreciate the finer points of a small, finesse weapon just as a smaller guy like me isn't really fond of something like the Kwan Do or the greatsword.

[Stolenbjorn]

Of course, in all fairness, a big guy like you isn't necessarily going to appreciate the finer points of a small, finesse weapon just as a smaller guy like me isn't really fond of something like the Kwan Do or the greatsword.AHA, now you insult ME! Do you insinuate that a lightly build guy cannot use a greatsword? Do you insinuate that the greatsword is a lump of steel weighing at least 30 lbs?

:p

If it is true that commonplace domestic items were modified to work as weapons, I find it very fasscinating. Allthough europe were flooded with hidden weapons, like swords in walkingsticks, daggers in swordscabbards, etc, I've never heard about fans, chairs, frisbees, etc beeing modified to work better as weapns :confused:

I think I see a distinction in culture between EMA and WMA, if this is true.
European combat manuals is all about simple systems that is transferable to many weapons, whereas it seems to me that EMA consists of several "locked doors", or a "computergame", where you have to complete a level to be allowed to learn "the next weapon" :confused:

[Davey Bones]

Dude, I'm 5'3", so I generally fail to see the utility in weilding a weapon taller than I am which weighs almost as much as I do. The Kwan Do can weigh upwards of 65 POUNDS. Ungainly, heavy, and clumsy. The war fan, on the other hand, weighs apporimately 1 pound and is about 15 inches long.

[koyo]

Hi Stolembjorn

The essence of japanese martial arts is pragmatic effective techniques rather than numerous techniques.In swordsmanship it is one cut one kill at it's highest level and the strike or thrusr is direct and without flourish. As someone once said" A man is a man a sword is a sword"
I think all the poses and flourishes we often see are there for the tourists.Every expert swordsman I have ever seen executes simple technique to perfection.

Perfection being something that you can not add to without the addition being superfluous nor can you take anything from it without weakening it.


regards koyo

Edit
Show me the guy who says a wee man canny use a big sword.I'll rip his skeleton oot through his mooth. :woo:

[Lily]

Polar Bear - I like that you say what you think. As a kendoka I feel so much more comfortable with the katana, bokken etc. over a fan anyday so can understand how you feel about your longsword :P

I never underestimate a tool in another person's hands though.

[Kogusoku]

Funny thing, too, you guys are missing the Chinese fans completely. Chinese steel fans were bludgeoning, piecing, AND slashing weapons. It looks like the Japanese ones were either open (the Tessen shield) or closed (the tessen), whereas the Chinese fans are used both open and closed. Is that accurate re: Japanese fans?

Not entirely. For tessen, the only time they are useful is when they are closed, since the ribs are formed together to make one single solid iron rod to strike, parry and lock joints with. Tessen from my experience in koryu jujutsu and observing other koryu ryuha kata, do not use their weapon opened up. There is of course one ryuha, Kashima Shinto-ryu that have a kenjutsu kata, where they throw an open sensu (wooden fan) as a distraction to the enemy.

I think I see a distinction in culture between EMA and WMA, if this is true.
European combat manuals is all about simple systems that is transferable to many weapons, whereas it seems to me that EMA consists of several "locked doors", or a "computergame", where you have to complete a level to be allowed to learn "the next weapon"

No, it's actually pretty much the same as it is in WMA for Classical Japanese martial traditions. Scientific and behavorial principles transcend the form and morphology of the weapon. There aren't really any locked doors, more like students don't understand what they are seeing and learning yet, to actually be able to practically apply said principles to any situation. Longsword, the technique works. Shortsword, the technique works. Tessen, the technique works. Jutte, the technique works. One mindset, any weapon.

[Studude67]

I train in the martial art of Kuk Sool Won and at the level of 3rd degree blackbelt fan techniques are taught. Hundreds of years ago in the Korean Royal courts, carrying a weapon was forbidden for fear of assasination of the royalty, eventually servants and guards devised their own methods of protection. Women concealed small blades in the tips of their fans and were even known to place dust inside in order to temporarily blind attackers, teachniques in using the fans to disable attackers were also developed, some of which are showcased in Kuk Sools, Bu Chae Sool set of techniques.

heres a vid i found displaying the fan techniques

Bu Chae Sool (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TMkvoNaT35w)

[slipthejab]

I train in the martial art of Kuk Sool Won and at the level of 3rd degree blackbelt fan techniques are taught. Hundreds of years ago in the Korean Royal courts, carrying a weapon was forbidden for fear of assasination of the royalty, eventually servants and guards devised their own methods of protection. Women concealed small blades in the tips of their fans and were even known to place dust inside in order to temporarily blind attackers, teachniques in using the fans to disable attackers were also developed, some of which are showcased in Kuk Sools, Bu Chae Sool set of techniques.

heres a vid i found displaying the fan techniques

Bu Chae Sool (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TMkvoNaT35w)

I'm curious if you have any links that discuss the issue of fans as a weapon and in Korean royal courts more in detail? :confused:

[Polar Bear]

Polar Bear - I like that you say what you think. As a kendoka I feel so much more comfortable with the katana, bokken etc. over a fan anyday so can understand how you feel about your longsword :P

I never underestimate a tool in another person's hands though.

Hi Lily,
I have used many weapons and improvised when my problem is not that it can be used as a weapon but that is has it's own style associated with it.
To me any dagger techniques can be applied using a "closed" fan so I am unsure why EMA has a fan forms or tessen-jutsu. It seems to me to an over-complication for no significant gain.
As Kogusoka said if you are studying it for pure cultural reasons then fine, it a nod to a cultural reference but I personally wouldn't devote years of study to it.

The Bear.

[Kogusoku]

Hi Lily,
I have used many weapons and improvised when my problem is not that it can be used as a weapon but that is has it's own style associated with it.
To me any dagger techniques can be applied using a "closed" fan so I am unsure why EMA has a fan forms or tessen-jutsu. It seems to me to an over-complication for no significant gain.
As Kogusoka said if you are studying it for pure cultural reasons then fine, it a nod to a cultural reference but I personally wouldn't devote years of study to it.

The Bear.

I gave a historical and practical reason above. Hardly an over-complication. You study aiki still right? Look up riai (理合い ), unification of principles.

Under an edict from the Tokugawa shogunate, it was forbidden to draw blades in court or to duel under pain of death and forfeiture of family holdings. Tessen was a kind of legal loophole, where you could have a lethal weapon (An iron cudgel) that didn't really look like one.

Also, tessenjutsu is not a style unto itself. In some of the koryu ryuha, it's mainly an auxilliary set of techniques in the syllabus. I have already explained the mindset issues above in a prior post. If you know your taijutsu and your ken, tessen becomes a kind of second nature thing for the most part.

And don't misquote me please. ;)

[Polar Bear]

And don't misquote me please. ;)

Kindly show me where I quoted you?

The Bear.

[Polar Bear]

Dude, I'm 5'3", so I generally fail to see the utility in weilding a weapon taller than I am which weighs almost as much as I do. The Kwan Do can weigh upwards of 65 POUNDS. Ungainly, heavy, and clumsy. The war fan, on the other hand, weighs apporimately 1 pound and is about 15 inches long.

65 lbs HOLY MOONBOOTS , do you have a picture of one. I mean full plate armour weighed about that!!!!!!

The Bear.

[Stolenbjorn]

Hundreds of years ago in the Korean Royal courts, carrying a weapon was forbidden for fear of assasination of the royalty, eventually servants and guards devised their own methods of protection. Women concealed small blades in the tips of their fans and were even known to place dust inside in order to temporarily blind attackers, teachniques in using the fans to disable attackers were also developed, some of which are showcased in Kuk Sools, Bu Chae Sool set of techniques.

This makes sense to me, and explains why someone would want to modify somthing as peacefully and domestic as a fan into somthing very efficiant in killing; and when I come to think of it, there are actually examples of this from Europe as well. At some point in late medieval/early renissanse, only nobility/knights were allowed to wield swords. As a consiquense, knifes began to grow larger and larger, and evolved into long knives that for all practical purposes were ..swords.

The extreme result is the Kriegsmesser, a two hand knife with crossguard :D

[Kogusoku]

Kindly show me where I quoted you?

The Bear.

As Kogusoka said if you are studying it for pure cultural reasons then fine, it a nod to a cultural reference but I personally wouldn't devote years of study to it.

The Bear.

Unless there is another user with a user handle similar to my own.

[Polar Bear]

Unless my understanding of english is incorrect that was a reference to an eariler post not a quote. Therefore I didn't misquote.

Cheers,
The Bear.

[Langenschwert]

Every expert swordsman I have ever seen executes simple technique to perfection.

That's the key to fighitng in general. A good fighter tends to have a few simple techniques that he does really, really well.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Rock Ape]

For tessen, the only time they are useful is when they are closed, since the ribs are formed together to make one single solid iron rod to strike, parry and lock joints with. Tessen from my experience in koryu jujutsu and observing other koryu ryuha kata, do not use their weapon opened up. Steve-san, so you wouldn't expect to see tessen used as depicted in this image, as a block?

BTW, someone really should teach them how to correctly wear hakama lol

[Davey Bones]

65 lbs HOLY MOONBOOTS , do you have a picture of one. I mean full plate armour weighed about that!!!!!!

The Bear.

While it could be used from horseback, the guan dao could also be used by infantry as an anti-personnel and anti-cavalry weapon. It is said that Guan Yu's original guan dao weighed between 100 and 200 lb (45 and 90 kg), the modern guan dao which has been adopted by martial artists today usually weighs between 5 and 20 lb (2 and 10 kg). During the Qing dynasty some extraordinarily heavy versions of guan dao were made for use in military examinations: a candidate had to be able to wield a weapon weighing 80, 100, or 120 jin in order to pass (the lightest of these three weighed appox. 79 kg).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/GuanYuStatue.JPG/319px-GuanYuStatue.JPG
That's Guan Yu with a Kwan Do/guando.

[Rock Ape]

Unless my understanding of english is incorrect that was a reference to an eariler post not a quote. Therefore I didn't misquote.

Cheers,
The Bear.You wrote... "As Kogusoku said" ... therfore anything you write thereafter in that context will be seen as a quote.

[Polar Bear]

I'm afriad I can't be responsible for someone elses grasp of the english language only my own.
Kogusoku was discussing the culture significance of the tessen. I refered to that arguement and elobated with my on thoughts on that. It doesn't violate the TOS to do so. If I had quoted Kogusoku and changed some words or cut words to change what he said then that would be misquoting. I did NOT do that.
I didn't create the language I just use it.

The Bear.

[Kogusoku]

Steve-san, so you wouldn't expect to see tessen used as depicted in this image, as a block?

BTW, someone really should teach them how to correctly wear hakama lol

Not to mention how to punch. :rolleyes:

[Kogusoku]

I'm afriad I can't be responsible for someone elses grasp of the english language only my own.
Kogusoku was discussing the culture significance of the tessen. I refered to that arguement and elobated with my on thoughts on that. It doesn't violate the TOS to do so. If I had quoted Kogusoku and changed some words or cut words to change what he said then that would be misquoting. I did NOT do that.
I didn't create the language I just use it.

The Bear.

Yes, and next time you post, check for spelling mistakes.

Elobated = Elaborated

[Polar Bear]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/GuanYuStatue.JPG/319px-GuanYuStatue.JPG
That's Guan Yu with a Kwan Do/guando.

WOW. That is a monster weapon. You would need huge strength to use it effectively.

The Bear.

[Polar Bear]

Yes, and next time you post, check for spelling mistakes.

Elobated = Elaborated

Topic mods into bullying now. Very Koryu I guess.

The Bear.

[Rock Ape]

I'm afriad I can't be responsible for someone elses grasp of the english language only my own.
Kogusoku was discussing the culture significance of the tessen. I refered to that arguement and elobated with my on thoughts on that. It doesn't violate the TOS to do so. If I had quoted Kogusoku and changed some words or cut words to change what he said then that would be misquoting. I did NOT do that.
I didn't create the language I just use it.

The Bear.I'm afraid I can't be responsible for someone elses grasp of the english language only my own.
Kogusoku was discussing the culture significance of the tessen. I refered to that argument and elobated with my on thoughts on that. It doesn't violate the TOS to do so. If I had quoted Kogusoku and changed some words or cut words to change what he said then that would be misquoting. I did NOT do that.
I didn't create the language I just use it.

Obviously :rolleyes:

[Davey Bones]

WOW. That is a monster weapon. You would need huge strength to use it effectively.

The Bear.

Yeah. It's actually a shame that the wu shu set makes them out of wu shu steel now and they weigh about 16-20 lbs and are bendy. *blech*

[Rock Ape]

Topic mods into bullying now. Seen that plenty of times in the aikido forum.. Never gets pulled in line there

[Polar Bear]

I'm afraid I can't be responsible for someone elses grasp of the english language only my own.
Kogusoku was discussing the culture significance of the tessen. I refered to that argument and elobated with my on thoughts on that. It doesn't violate the TOS to do so. If I had quoted Kogusoku and changed some words or cut words to change what he said then that would be misquoting. I did NOT do that.
I didn't create the language I just use it.

Obviously :rolleyes:

Yeah I'm seeing that koryu honour shining through guys.

The Bear.

[Rock Ape]

Yeah I'm seeing that koryu honour shining through guys.

The Bear.I find it mildly amusing and often pathetic when people refer to bushido or even merely the principle thereof as an indication of how people should conduct themselves simply because they may (or may not) study a martial art.

[ScottUK]

I'm a big fan of 'do unto others as they do unto you' as a code of conduct...

[Polar Bear]

I find it mildly amusing and often pathetic when people refer to bushido or even merely the principle thereof as an indication of how people should conduct themselves simply because they may (or may not) study a martial art.

Ah I see glad that clears it up. I was almost beginning to believe the hype there but it's just another marketing gimmick. I have to admit I feel a twinge of sadness about that.

The Bear.

[koyo]

What gets me is I am willing to bet if you guys were in a dojo you would probably get on great.

regards koyo

[ScottUK]

Good point. It reminds me of this pic:

Anonymous People (http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319h.jpg)

Warning - suspect language.

[koyo]

Hi Scott

Maybe it is time to hand out the wine gums.

regards koyo

[ScottUK]

Not much chance of that. I am selfish with such goodies... ;)

[Bahng Uh Ki]

Women.... were even known to place dust inside in order to temporarily blind attackers...I've tried that, in the air, not actually toward an atacker. It is extremely difficult to control. It you have enough room to fling the fan open pouring dust which was concealled in the fan into their face, you probably have enough room to hit them. The wind blows it back toward you. It doesn't like to stay in the fan either. Maybe, upon seeing an attack, a lady might stoop to put some dust on the open fan, and try to throw it in the face of an attacker busy with someone else.

Of course, it might work better with something heavier than flour, something that can be thrown easier, something between flour and sand.

I think pointy bamboo ends hidden in the feathers also would work at least as well as sharp little blades in the fan. I think it would work better as a stabbing instrument, open or closed, than a slicing one. The feathers get in the way.

[Kogusoku]

Topic mods into bullying now. Very Koryu I guess.

The Bear.

No, it's more like you being disparaging about how a weapon is used, albeit you don't really know how it is used. Your ignoring posts based on historical and cultural fact and still poo-pooing the weapon and then when you get called on something, you reply with a pithy answer, which in return, shows you up.

Not bullying by any length of the imagination.

And as for your comment about honour. Because things aren't going your way? Do knock it off. We're all (for the most part) grown-ups here.

What gets me is I am willing to bet if you guys were in a dojo you would probably get on great.

regards koyo

Bill,

You're probably right. Maybe even get better on in a pub. Go figure.

[Anth]

Topic is use of the fan/tessen/whatever its called in CMA, so please stop taking it down the "moderator bullying" route.

If you have any moderation problems, contact me by PM or email (anth@martialartsplanet.net) rather than complaining about them in the thread.

[Kogusoku]

Here's a form of tessen that is quite commonly found in antique weapons galleries. This particular type doesn't open. It's basically a solid length of iron.

http://www.nebulas.com/shureido/images/kobudo/kobudo20.jpg

Here's a more common form of tessen which does open. Only the outer ribs of this style are iron. The others are bamboo.

http://www.k-o-s.jp/images/kadokawa/291167_02.jpg

Then there is the more edible ebi tessen. ;)

http://img02.shop-pro.jp/PA01006/374/product/2130365.jpg

[koyo]

If you are any good he should be eating the first one. :D


regards koyo

[Davey Bones]

Huh, interesting, Kogusoku. My fan's ribs are all made of steel.
I have a bamboo one, but prefer the heft of the steel.

[Polar Bear]

So do gendai arts use the modern fan.

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/al/alaskan-30cm-brushed-nickel-fan.jpg

Yeah of course if Kogusuko ever makes it to Glasgow he will have celtic top waiting for him and a couple pints behind the bar at the Red Lion. :D
Never let it be said the bear holds a grudge.

The Bear.

[Anth]

Take the cover off it and I suppose you could use it if you had a decent lead on it. I doubt anyone would want to attack you if you were wielding a metal-bladed fan spinning at stupid speeds!

Probably get locked up by the men in white coats for trying it like! :D

[Polar Bear]

Take the cover off it and I suppose you could use it if you had a decent lead on it. I doubt anyone would want to attack you if you were wielding a metal-bladed fan spinning at stupid speeds!

Probably get locked up by the men in white coats for trying it like! :D

I heard that in the royal basketball courts of Kilmarnock, they were forbidden bucky bottles. So a legal loophole allowed for a fan to be hidden between their shell suits and Rangers polo shirts.

http://www.emcadgifts.co.uk/images/POCKETFAN.jpg

Not as deadly as a bucky bottle but could give you a nasty chaff.

The Bear.

[ember]

Take the cover off it and I suppose you could use it if you had a decent lead on it. I doubt anyone would want to attack you if you were wielding a metal-bladed fan spinning at stupid speeds!

Probably get locked up by the men in white coats for trying it like! :D

Or a propeller, like in one of the Indiana Jones movies.

[Stolenbjorn]

...I have used many weapons and improvised when my problem is not that it can be used as a weapon but that is has it's own style associated with it.
To me any dagger techniques can be applied using a "closed" fan so I am unsure why EMA has a fan forms or tessen-jutsu. It seems to me to an over-complication for no significant gain.
As Kogusoka said if you are studying it for pure cultural reasons then fine, it a nod to a cultural reference but I personally wouldn't devote years of study to it.This is my wiew as well.

On some other threads, we've concluded that EMA and WMA is incredibly similar, and that is why I am a little puzzled on this fan-thing.

Perhaps it's just my understanding that is limited, but when someone states "I study the art of [insert strange impliment here]", it sounds as there is a separate MA-system for this very weapon. Take Fiore di Liberis Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum (Early renissanse WMA from Italy) to compare: He shows fighting with wooden sticks, wooden clubs, wresteling from horseback, wresteling on foot, spear and lance from horseback, spear on foot, 2h.warhammer, 1h sword, 2h sword, rondelldagger, gloves and scabbard.

But you wouldn't meet someone studying his manual(s) stating "I study the art of gloves"; the glove-technique(s) is shown in the dagger-section, and allthough you might meet people saying "I study Fiore Longsword", they have to look into the other sections of the manual to get the full grasp of the range of techniques you can do with a longsword.

I realize that it probably is exactly the same with EMA, just me getting a little hung up in the asian words, believing that when someone says that they study the fan, it's not an indipendent system that stands alone, rather really just an integrated extention of a bigger picture, am I right?

[Kogusoku]

I realize that it probably is exactly the same with EMA, just me getting a little hung up in the asian words, believing that when someone says that they study the fan, it's not an indipendent system that stands alone, rather really just an integrated extention of a bigger picture, am I right?

Aye, that's the case if the system is being studied properly.

[Kogusoku]

If you are any good he should be eating the first one. :D


regards koyo

If you have a shrimp allergy, the last one is just as deadly as the first. :D

[koyo]

Aye, that's the case if the system is being studied properly.

I think that there is a misconception that traditional arts are "stuck in the past" Major to any traditional art was to be able to face all other arts and weapons of the day.So every school would study the tactics of the other. (cross training? mixed martial arts).It is foolish to imagine that anyone would blindly stick to a curiculum that shall limit their responces in a confrontation.

This is why I am quite pleased to allow some to think aikido has no strikes no first attacks. Suits me fine. :Angel: :Angel:

regards koyo

dare I say traditional martial arts are mixed martial arts?

[Kogusoku]

I think that there is a misconception that traditional arts are "stuck in the past" Major to any traditional art was to be able to face all other arts and weapons of the day.So every school would study the tactics of the other. (cross training? mixed martial arts).It is foolish to imagine that anyone would blindly stick to a curiculum that shall limit their responces in a confrontation.

Well, this is the thing. Now, what I'm going to say might be a slight bit inflammatory, but since I have returned from Japan, I have noticed it more and more in the west.

For the most part, there are a great number of instructors out there that don't make the art "live". They've been taught to a certain level of instruction and haven't gotten any higher, nor have been encouraged to explore, analyse or research into what they do. They're basically stuck in a rut and are teaching great forms, but ask them the whys and wherefores and they sometimes can't give a satisfactory answer.

It's usually due to limited instruction, limited exposure to the psychological, physical and scientific principles that make the art work dynamically as it does. This is a two-way street mind you - If the student doesn't ask the right questions, he doesn't get all the info. You're spoonfed a certain amount and eventually, that stops. You'll either stay with what you have, or you'll continue to ask questions to your teacher and your knowledge will accumulate.

When a koryu teaches a kata, it's not just teaching a physical form of how to cut a certain way or lock an arm when in tsuba-zeriai. It's teaching psychological and physical principles of a combative nature. Yes, at the beginning, training is very structured and rigid, looking very dogmatic, but at higher levels, it's as if certain doors are opened and you have total access to the house. (Remember when you were a kid and you weren't allowed into granny's parlour only on special occasions? Then, when you become an adult, you can just walk right in, because you know how to behave. Try and do so before you're of age and you recieve a hiding!) Principles and concepts become more applicable than before at that stage.

In the Japanese language, kata (form) can be written two ways; 形　or 型. Most are familiar with the former rather than the latter. The latter refers to a form which cannot be altered and must remain the same. The former refers to a form or behavorial pattern that can be adapted to certain criteria.

The basic form of the human body never changes. Armed with a striking/cutting tool or unarmed, the number options of attack have a limit. It's down to training, proper tuition and experience how to respond. With most koryu, the same technique will be used again, almost repetatively to show how it can be used to suit any situation, albeit with minor alterations. (e.g. The attacker cuts with shomen-giri (Vertical head cut), use suri-age (rising sliding parry). If the attacker cuts with kesa-giri (diagonal cut to the shoulder/neck), use a modified suri-age to counter.)

Budo gendai or koryu, if taught properly and studied properly, will teach students to be intuitive and use their brain, rather than just be slaves to form.

[Davey Bones]

I realize that it probably is exactly the same with EMA, just me getting a little hung up in the asian words, believing that when someone says that they study the fan, it's not an indipendent system that stands alone, rather really just an integrated extention of a bigger picture, am I right?

Depends. Kendo is a well-established art, and all it entails is the shinai (as a sub for the katana). That's it last time I checked.

My beef with the criticism of "independent systems" versus "integrated extention of a bigger picture" is that for many folks, it's all about forms. See, it's easy to take Western swordfighting, for example, and either isolate it or make it part of some reconstructed study of Western weapons since you guys actually spar. Eastern weapons study usually comes in as part of an open hand system, and too many people think "because I learned a form, I know how to use a weapon". Uhm, no, that's like saying "because I learned a pattern I know how to fight".

I have sparred with a number of weapons, learned forms for others, and to be frank, I can easily see turning any one of them into a system unto itself. Not necessarily smart, but I can see it.

[koyo]

I am with you on that one. Coming from aiki ken and having the luxury of friends who are 5th dan kendo. We cross train with them and getting into the armour and actually fighting was a great experience. We did well because of our timing.distancing and fighting spirit. BUT the kendoka did better (far better) because they train constantly for combat.
Similar with the empty hand techniques we train with judoka and do better there than we do at kendo. All good.
Competing is excellent for testing your principles (rather than simply technique) Training is to develop an intuitive and decisive mind rather than a "competitive" mind in that we cannot allow the thought of losing to enter into our attitude at all.It is best to enter into "things" with an utter conviction of success.
Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and dominate the spirit of the opponent.

regards koyo

The main point from kendo was the ability to go from zero to 100% attack in an instant. Below I am really "on my bike" even though this is a kata.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

Yeah, but mine are steel, not whatever wimpy wood that stuff is. More like this: http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-08b.html

Description: Black nylon fabric with pheonix design. Constructed with stainless steel. There are approximately 13 stainless bars attached to the nylon fabric giving the fan an overall weights of 1 lb. The folded height is 12 1/2''. When opened the width is approximately 23 1/2''.
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My tessen is exactly the same, except 4 the design on it...chinese and japanese fans seem very similar =D

[Kogusoku]

They're very different altogether.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

They're very different altogether.
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They look exactly the same! theyre just fans

[Anth]

A wallhanger looks exactly the same as a nihonto (to the uneducated eye), but they aren't the same by a long shot ;)

[koyo]

Here is a drawing I did of Takeda Shingen, The fan is iron. Would not like to get hit by it.

regards koyo

[Kogusoku]

A wallhanger looks exactly the same as a nihonto (to the uneducated eye), but they aren't the same by a long shot ;)

Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

[Davey Bones]

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They look exactly the same! theyre just fans


uhh, considering that you were the one who went out of your way to resurrect a TWO YEAR OLD thread and wow us with your supposed knowledge, this is a pretty ignorant comment.

One of my law school classmates said this on day one of classes.. "what does it matter, they're just words!" The professor glared him into the corner. I'm giving you the same look. :yeleyes:

[Kogusoku]

Here is a drawing I did of Takeda Shingen, The fan is iron. Would not like to get hit by it.

regards koyo

Bill,

That's a gunsen. There were a few ryuha that taught the use of that weapon. It's slightly different from a tessen though.

[ScottUK]

Steve,

Isn't Shingen holding a gunbai dansen there (the non-folding signalling type of fan)?

I understand that gunsen is war fan - what is the literal translation of tessen then?

[Kogusoku]

Steve,

Isn't Shingen holding a gunbai dansen there (the non-folding signalling type of fan)?

I understand that gunsen is war fan - what is the literal translation of tessen then?

Gunbai Dansen (軍配団扇 ) - Tactical Group Fan (Signaller's fan - A fan used to pass out military orders to seperate groups in an army.) This is still used today in sumo by the shinpan to show who won the bout.

Gunsen (軍扇 ) - Military fan

Tessen (鉄扇 ) - Iron fan

[ScottUK]

Cheers Steve... :)

[Kogusoku]

No bother.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

uhh, considering that you were the one who went out of your way to resurrect a TWO YEAR OLD thread and wow us with your supposed knowledge, this is a pretty ignorant comment.

One of my law school classmates said this on day one of classes.. "what does it matter, they're just words!" The professor glared him into the corner. I'm giving you the same look. :yeleyes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

But that's what they are...yer man's words are just words. Fans are just fans.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

And I set out not to 'wow' you, as you put it, but clearly I have wasted my time trying to help, because the whole lot of you are too narrow-minded to even entertain the idea of accepting someone elses opinions.

[ScottUK]

Can you summarise your points/opinions? I've just come out of a coma and am interested in the debate.

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

Can you summarise your points/opinions? I've just come out of a coma and am interested in the debate.
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Well, I believe that fans were used by samurai in feudal Japan. I believe that they were used as hidden weapons (i.e-they werent recognised as weapons).
The tessen (fans) had bladed edges at the end of the spokes which were used to cut and slashall over the place. When the tessen was closed, it was used as a club, although the bladed edges could also be used when it is closed.
The tessen could be used open or closed to parry/block attacks by swords, staffs, fists, feet etc.

I think that fans, japanese or otherwise were nothing more than fans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what they look like.
Perhaps used differently, but they were just fans.

[ScottUK]

I believe that they were used as hidden weapons I think that fans were nothing more than fans.Choose one...?

[x-Tessenjutsu-x]

What I meant was they were physically nothing more or less than fans,but were used in various ways.

[ScottUK]

Perhaps, but what about the ones built for fighting? Were they nothing more than fans?

I used to have this paperweight that was made by Smith and Wesson and for some strange an inexplicable reason it could project .357-sized lumps of metal out of it at speed. Was that just a paperweight?

Ah, just kidding. I don't really care much for this fan debate. It is boring. Can we talk about ninjer smoke bombs instead?

[Kogusoku]

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Well, I believe that fans were used by samurai in feudal Japan. I believe that they were used as hidden weapons (i.e-they werent recognised as weapons).
The tessen (fans) had bladed edges at the end of the spokes which were used to cut and slashall over the place. When the tessen was closed, it was used as a club, although the bladed edges could also be used when it is closed.
The tessen could be used open or closed to parry/block attacks by swords, staffs, fists, feet etc.

I think that fans, japanese or otherwise were nothing more than fans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what they look like.
Perhaps used differently, but they were just fans.

As someone who has trained and lived in Japan and specialized in classical Japanese martial arts, including the use of the tessen, I have to say that pretty much everything you have written above is inaccurate.

Tessen did not have blades protruding out of it's "spokes". (Fans have ribs not spokes, it is not a bicycle) Slash all over the place? Sorry you seem to have your weapons mixed up.

Some Chinese fans used in gung-fu I understand have bladed edges, but not Japanese tessen. The morphology of the weapons are quite different.

Open, a tessen is vulnerable to breakage if you attempted to block an oncoming strike. Closed, it is much more effective, since the iron outer ribs provide structural integrity to the weapon.

Earlier on on this very thread, I posted pictures of two examples of tessen. No protruding blades out of it's ribs.

Closing this thread now, as it has served it's purpose.