My View on HKD

[Korpy]

Hello all. This is a little long, but I would like to write this, and hopefully you can take something away with it.

I just wanted to tell you my opinion of the former style I studied. I started in May of 2005. We had a great master and good instructors. Our master had a high degree in both HKD. (also had a degree in TKD and Judo) He was a pretty damn good HKD teacher. Focused less on high kicks, and whatnot, but more on strong/flowing joint locks/throws. The only complaints I had was that there was no sparring, but the resistance was good. We were under the largest HKD org, The Korea Hapkido Association. During early 2006, due to conflict between himself and the instructors, he left. For months, and months we had no master. The instructors told us that it would still be a strong HKD program (they even said sparring would be added, also more extensive grappling). Wrong. Training went downhill. Conditioning was the only good thing. The HKD I orginially was learning became crappy TKD with some weak joint locks. No resistance, and no sparring because "we were too deadly". Around this time, for some months, I did Muay Thai/BJJ for about a little over 3 months, but still went to HKD class. I did Muay Thai/BJJ because I was no longer confident in my ability to defend myself.

Then at the end of the summer of 2006, we had a new master coming in, supposedly better then our old one. Wrong once again. He was way more TKD orientated. He even called our techniques "one step sparring" And while he was an excellent TKD instructor, his HKD was just bad. I started going less, and less, and recently I stopped.

For quite sometime, I ripped on Hapkido as a whole. But then I realized, I shouldn't blame it. With our old master, I got in better shape, learned good defensive striking, and great joint locks, and if he would have stayed, no doubt I would have stayed. (I even had to use what I learned in some situations)

I also realized that my old dojang was just a "regular, strip mall dojang" Weak training, and the instructors always claiming that Hapkido was an ancient art. But now I appreciate Hapkido for what it is. A great style with lots to offer, but it definatly depends on the dojang. If it's just a regular strip mall dojang, I tell you beware. But if it's a pure Hapkido dojang (like one of the members, iron_ox goes to) then hurry and go learn.

Now I am doing Jeet Kune Do under a Jerry Poteet certified instructor. (who also did training with the Gracies for awhile)

I do miss Hapkido, and maybe one day, I can also go to a hard training, pure Hapkido dojang.

Thank you for your time. :)

[timex]

can sympathize with you. Hapkido is a wonderful art and I enjoy it. I feel to be well rounded if you can add grappling or bjj and sparring or muay thai that would be great. In some dojangs not everyone wants to spar and it becomes difficult to do it in regular class (have to find people willing after class-if that). Hopefully we will be starting a regular grappling class--I hope it will be successful. Nothing compares to *live training*!

It's hard to find a good place to train - keep looking, and GOOD LUCK!!!! :)

[Cosmo Kramer]

Hapkido is a good thing, if you do not get what you want out of it from one Dojang look around again. Hopefully you can find at least a decent place to train

[slipthejab]

I'd like to get around to training it someday. But there are only so many hours in the day.

[Ryback]

Hello to all readers,

I also sympathize this with you. If you want to learn a good HKD style get a good teacher with a good organisation IHF or HKD related with a chiefmaster in Korea. So you can learn his HKD style. Some of the schools over here (in Holland) are teaching also crapy TKD techniques or other realted techniques.
I found a organisation that is good in HKD style en IHF related. Hopefully we can join that IHF related organisation. I hope so :) .
I hope you find also a school with sutch relationship. For the rest Hapkido or Hankido is a good thing and look around for sutch dojang.

Good luck :) .

Regard,

Ryback.

[Korpy]

I hope ya'll enjoyed what little article. Like I said, HKD is a great art but it depends on the teachers/dojang. I'm just happy now. I started studying JKD, which feels very enlightening. It's great. The aliveness/sparring is there, my teacher is better (physically, and mentally... I did NOT like the mentality of some of my teachers before), and I feel like I can actually defend myself now. I might even take up Shootfighting to suppliment my JKD, not too sure yet.

[k3hungsing]

my teacher is better (physically, and mentally... I did NOT like the mentality of some of my teachers before

Who are you reffering to?

[Korpy]

Who are you reffering to?

MY HKD teachers.

[Ryback]

I started studying JKD, which feels very enlightening. It's great. The aliveness/sparring is there, my teacher is better (physically, and mentally....

Oke Korpy,

I hope you find your thing in JKD and wish you good luck. Thanks for sharing the feeling about HKD. Its not insolving your problem over there in HKD. May be somebody with some influence wil notice this problem and can do something about it.

Friendly regards,

Ryback.

[BSR]

I hope ya'll enjoyed what little article. Like I said, HKD is a great art but it depends on the teachers/dojang.

Is there an art where this isn't the case?

[Korpy]

Is there an art where this isn't the case?

This was a worse case. Claiming that the art was ancient, too dangerous to spar, and no resistance = bad.

[hkd_instructor]

This was a worse case. Claiming that the art was ancient, too dangerous to spar, and no resistance = bad.

Korpy, I too have an opportunity to train with a JKD/Progressive Fighting Systems (Paul Vunak) certified instructor, and am curious what you think.

Do you think, now knowing the JKD principles, that an HKD guy could defend him/herself against a JKD person? I'm not trying to start a flame. I've been involved in the arts for a long time - and see my username!

I honestly think a JKD/PFS guy who's been training for a while will have the attributes (self-preservation skills) to hold their own against someone in TKD or HKD. My .02 cents is HKD is predicated as a self-defense art, and as such the techniques may/will work if-and-or-when you can initially evade the attack, and setup for the invade and joint lock/control move.

I'm 37, and not sure unless I train 5 hours a day in my HKD IF I could honestly catch a person's punch in order to employ my HKD...

Thoughts?

Stieger

[nj_howard]

I'm 37, and not sure unless I train 5 hours a day in my HKD IF I could honestly catch a person's punch in order to employ my HKD...

Why would you need to catch an incoming punch in order to employ HKD? (I infer that you're thinking of some type of wrist lock defense)

There's more than one way to skin a cat. :)

[Korpy]

Korpy, I too have an opportunity to train with a JKD/Progressive Fighting Systems (Paul Vunak) certified instructor, and am curious what you think.

Do you think, now knowing the JKD principles, that an HKD guy could defend him/herself against a JKD person? I'm not trying to start a flame. I've been involved in the arts for a long time - and see my username!

I honestly think a JKD/PFS guy who's been training for a while will have the attributes (self-preservation skills) to hold their own against someone in TKD or HKD. My .02 cents is HKD is predicated as a self-defense art, and as such the techniques may/will work if-and-or-when you can initially evade the attack, and setup for the invade and joint lock/control move.

I'm 37, and not sure unless I train 5 hours a day in my HKD IF I could honestly catch a person's punch in order to employ my HKD...

Thoughts?

Stieger


I think it would depend. What I noticed at the dojang I went to, that the instructors even though they were somehwhat flowing, we're still stiff and bound by techniques. In JKD, I've noticed the freedom, and how I can do what suits me.

And once again, this is just my dojang, that I'm comparing.

HKD striking was very TKDish. Even though there were lowkicks, they weren't as good as the kicks in JKD. I also like the hand striking. Simple and effective, and not a bunch of different strikes, just different area and angles.

The joint locking was a main emphasis, and if one of the HKD people from my old school tried to do one of the MANY, sometimes ridiculous wrist locks they'd probably get a nice straight blast into them, and would be on the ground.

And since my JKD teacher trained with the Gracies in Cali, I should be more then covered in my grappling area. My old HKD school had very little/no grappling, it was sad.

So I will end with this. JKD isn't the better system/style/whatever you wanna call it, but my sifu is better then my former instructors.

[dortiz]

"HKD striking was very TKDish. Even though there were lowkicks, they weren't as good as the kicks in JKD. I also like the hand striking. Simple and effective, and not a bunch of different strikes, just different area and angles."

Wow..I have to disagree. Not sure if you know this but Bruce Lee studied Hapkido for his films in Hong Kong. That JKD shin kick is similar to HKD scoop kick. Theres plenty more too.

[JimH]

People have to find what they like,what fits THEIR needs and what they are comfortable with and doing.

If Hapkido,TKD or any other art does not fill your need look for something else.

JKD is no better or worse than any other martial art.

I as a Hapkidoist do not care who or what the opponent knows or does not know,if they are unknown to me I know nothing of them ,they know nothing of me,but they are threatening me.

A kicker ,be they TKD,Muay Thai,JKD,what ever will be at kicking range to launch,I can move straight in,in at angle or I can move out,I can pass the kick,hook the kick,capture the kick or avoid the kick.

A puncher, be they Boxer,TKD,muay Thai,JKD,what ever must be in punching range to launch,I can move in,Move in at an angle or move out,I can parry ,intercept or catch the striking limb.

If the attacker is a grappler they will move to grappling range,stand up and or to ground,I can employ the same techniques standing as on the ground.

Hapkido provides the same tools as JKD and any other so called MMA,but one must stay long enough to learn them,also the teacher and students must be willing to learn and test their art against others to make students comfortable in any exchange.

Unless people have new tools,more arms or legs,teh delivery systems are the same ,no matter the art,so I ,as aHapkidoist could care less what they know as I am comfortable in what I know and that I can deal with any and all forms of attack.

I hope those who train in other arts stay long enough to find out this truth and how any art if trained right can lead to a comfort zone in altercations.
......................................
Catching hands ?
If some one punches at me and I stand straight on to them,center line to center line,I can parry the incoming strike and redirect the energy,while simultaneously moving in at angle and anticipating the retraction of the striking limb,so I am next to them at the side,when the limb retracts I take it control it and strike the attacker from a position of advantage on the outsidw,while off setting their balance,once that is done they are mine.

As Howard said,there are unlimited things to do to someone aside from attempting a stationary catching of a dynamic hand to apply a wrist lock.

If one learned to employ all the tools of hapkido with kicks,strikes and inside work then one would see that avoiding the incoming strike,being in position to strike and weaken them with your tools then grab a limb and move into a lock or pain compliance.

As Far as a JKD person moving on me with JKD or wing chun styled ,so called,straight blasts,over hand verticle punches,again if I stood stationary and did not move inside to angle then I maybe hit and overwhelmed,but if I close the gap at angle and end up next to them ,on the outside,they are mine as they retract those TWO hands straight back up the middle,as I take a limb and they trun to reacquire me to strike they turn their body into pain compliance for me,learn how the body works and use it against them,the secret to Hapkido and any art.

Enjoy what you do but do not believe the Hype that any art is superior to another,the art does not provide the superiority the practioner does and the knowledge and experience of one practioner against another is the answer.

I hope JKD works out,let us know how it goes,I hope in the short term you are not here telling us of the inferiority of JKD against some other art.

[JimH]

Doritz,
While Bruce is said to have studied Hapkido ,he was a student of all arts,the stop kick is a kick of wing chun as well as of many other arts,it is not a solitary kick scoop kick or stop kick of Hapkido.
Jhoon Rhee said he also worked with TKD kicks with Bruce,and others worked with him in kicks from their arts like James Lee and others from early JKD,as did Norris,Lewis,Stone and others.
.................................................. ...........................................

I would though like to know what kicks are exclusive to JKD that are not found in other arts like TKD?

I would also like to know what JKD kicks are used for show and sport and which are for street,because even Bruce Lee in all of his writing said he wouild never employ any high kicks in a street altercation,this is true of any kicking art which has a large variety of kicks only some would be widely used in true street employment,though high kicks could be done by a rare few and pulled off,they are not a kick of choice.

[dortiz]

JimH,
I agree. In the year I did JKD I was never exposed to any sport or flashy kicks that I would not use or that were unique. Instead I saw techniques that were taken from different styles and whittled down to their best essence and applied as practically as possible. I mentioned that kick because theres a good chance it comes from that root regardless of the two styles and is there in both. Bruce Lee liked HKD enough to have Dojunim Ji in Game of Death when it was not the most popular if known at all art. Just saying to JKD folks that their founder had some respect for it. Obviously I like and talk HKD over other styles...overall the one thing I have learned is those that master their style and really master it seem to win regardless. Heres to a HKD and JKD stylist sharing a cup o tea.

[hkd_instructor]

Hi folks,

In all reality, everyone should care about their opponent. Bruce wanted to know who or what type of fighter is was going against, so he could employ his attributes from other ranges to beat his opponent. You wouldn't grapple a grappler (if your a boxer, for instance).

The ideology that if you truly master your art, you will win is a fallacy. There's always someone that knows more, always someone who's studied or practiced harder, etc. Look at MMA or UFC. Yeah, the Gracies have mastered their art, and took it by storm, but there's folks that now know how to beat the gracies based on BL original idea - beat your opponent at a game different than there own.

I've studied HKD for close to 20 years, and have obtained 4th degree. I will be the first to admit, as my master would always say - you never fully master an art. The day you believe you have, is the day you have stopped learning. Similarly, I was just at a Master's Seminar over the weekend where the Shihan and now considered the the founder of Kenju Ryu Jujitsu (was co-founded by him and Sig Kufferath... He holds master level degrees in 7 arts...to say he hasn't "master" one or many arts would be ridiculous...

During the seminar, he specifically stated to all of us with our mouths open, "always keep an open mind, as you should always search to do things better..." he also said, "I'm still looking to do this better..."

So, I think sometimes we may oversimplify things a bit by stating we'll "slip" to one side or the other and get inside.... Sure, it's one thing to say it, quite another to pull it off when someone is "gunning" for you with 100% power and speed. My hope is we never have a false sense of security...

Best,

HKD_Instructor

[JimH]

quote
"Bruce wanted to know who or what type of fighter is was going against, so he could employ his attributes from other ranges to beat his opponent. You wouldn't grapple a grappler (if your a boxer, for instance). "

That seems well and good for a sport or agreed to confrontation where I know and am aware of what the rules or the opponents strengths and weaknesses are
But
In a Fast threatening street attack where one means you harm or threat to take your property,you do not know the attacker,their skills or lack of and they do not know yours.

What you must know is how to recognise distancing which the attacker may use.

If we encounter an attacker who moves out to kicking range how do we fight them?
We close the gap or expand the gap.
Expanding gives them another opportunity and forces me to move again.
Closing the gap,shorts his ability to kick and forces him to punch or grab.

I said all this in the other,above,post,this accomplishes what Bruce meant.

I have over 35 years in various martial arts,Boxing,TKD,Military combatives,Shotokan,Aikido,BJJ,Wing Chun,Reality based martial arts,Israeli Combat arts as well as Krav Maga,I found Hapkido many many years ago thriugh various Instructors finding my current Instructor able to fill my needs and show the diverse applications currently applications of the art in which I have a 3rd dan, but I have not stopped training in other forms of self defense.
(not because Hapkido does not provide the answers but for diversity,for learning ,for seeing similar concepts in different arts)

I have been in real fights in which people meant me harm from growing up to military to various jobs I have held.

I have tested what I do and the truth be told in a REAL fight I do not care what you know you will do none of it as in the Dojang/Dojo.
(maybe your first planned move works but the rest does not go so well)

I test my Hapkido/Self defense against other styles ,other manners of combat,against resisting opponents,not just static attacks in class,so I know about entries and balance displacement and the effect on an opponent for real,not theory.

I attended a Reality Self Defense instructor school and the Instructor said in an actual attack you can not do a grab to a limb attack into pain compliance,
He had a knife guy from FIGHT/Haganah come at me with intent,speed power and as he stabbed at me I hollowed out,thumb over thumb grab/pull at the limb to off balance him,entered ,parried the knife limb to the side while maintaining control of the limb ,shouldered the attacker and then slid/turned into a center lock,elbowing on entry and elbow when in ceneterlock,crushed the side of his leg with a low angle side kick and downed him,into pain compliance.

Use of intent,the opponents power forward to displace his balance,my body into the attack to displace his balance again,elbow in for pain and balance disruption,elbow at the completion of center lock for balance displacement,low side kick to cause balance displacement,pain compliance while he kneels to keep him in pain compliance,knees to face to finish,multi balance disruptions and attacks in about 5 seconds at controlled speed.

The Instructor said he had never had anyone pull it off,so I guess the correct form of training enables one to perform under stress,at least for a limited time to be able to make a difference.
Now this was not a real attack,it was in a class though delivered with an intent attacker,would it work on the street,I hope so,but Hope is all any of us have as no matter how much we train a defense,the street attacker maybe just a bit different.

If one jumps from art to art to try and find answers they are chasing a dream and wasting time,as said nothing is new once one see what is true self defense.

The High kicks trained in JKD are as useless as the High kicks in TKD on the street,I have trained with Joe Lewis in his JKD,Vunaks people and other JKD people.

If one doubts the use of entries and angles then one has not learned the truth in combat,as there is no other way to way.

To stand off is to exchange ,to exchange is to give the opponent the chance to win.

Moving in is the only way to tip the scales in your favor and shorten the opponents strike capabilities.

Moving just inside and to an outside angle allows you to be in position not to be struck,to strike and control at will or just to use a low angke kick to the side of the knee to down the opponent.

If one wants to see the use of angles look at Vee Arnis Shihan James use of angles,also hapkido is from Daito ryu which was from sword art,if one does not move in and at angle against a sword then one is cut,so to down play moving in at angle is to down play the true application of the art.

Hapkido is not the answer for everyone,any art,if studied and trained for the desired application will reveal the truth of survival,if that is the goal.

I hope those who search for other things to provide the answers ,get the answers they seek,most times it is truth in training and that depends on how far a person is willing to go.

I train against BJJ,MMA,Kung Fu,Boxers,anyone who is willing to test and learn.

I do not wish to change to another style as when I test my style I will get answers and I do not expect those I train with to change,just see how things must be altered to make each art work in reality of the fight.

I hope those who leave Hapkido for some other art find the answers in the other art.

[MA_Angel]

I do miss Hapkido, and maybe one day, I can also go to a hard training, pure Hapkido dojang.
:)

That's pretty cool that you feel that strongly about your martial arts style. I think you'll find it again someday, there are schools popping up everywhere and I think it's only a matter of time before you get back to learning what you enjoy.

[hkd_instructor]

Now we're cookin' :)

[dortiz]

Ok HKD Instructor,
"those that master their style and really master it seem to win regardless." Let me re phrase and say those that train hardest. The true Master is he who realizes he knows nothing.

JimH,
"To stand off is to exchange ,to exchange is to give the opponent the chance to win.

Moving in is the only way to tip the scales in your favor and shorten the opponents strike capabilities.

Moving just inside and to an outside angle allows you to be in position not to be struck,to strike and control at will or just to use a low angke kick to the side of the knee to down the opponent."

Thats the best real fighting / sparring advice I have read in a while. Well done!


Cheers

[hkd_instructor]

In other words, the dead zone principle...which is significantly different in that:

Evade attack, then
Invade attack, then
Control

I'm not going to argue with the person who posted the info - I know what he means and that's cool, but fundamentally it differs from my training which is listed above. No harm, just different.

[JTMS]

I am not really sure why I read so many of these threads "whaaa whaaa" my martial arts is better than this martial art. Or, I like my martial art but not really. I train Hapkido, my students train Hapkido and we do this because we have GROWN to love it.

When I want a cookie I go to the corner bakery and when I have a belly ache I go to the doctor.

Best wishes in the martial arts!

[iron_ox]

Hello all. This is a little long, but I would like to write this, and hopefully you can take something away with it.

I just wanted to tell you my opinion of the former style I studied. I started in May of 2005. We had a great master and good instructors. Our master had a high degree in both HKD. (also had a degree in TKD and Judo) He was a pretty damn good HKD teacher. Focused less on high kicks, and whatnot, but more on strong/flowing joint locks/throws. The only complaints I had was that there was no sparring, but the resistance was good. We were under the largest HKD org, The Korea Hapkido Association. During early 2006, due to conflict between himself and the instructors, he left. For months, and months we had no master. The instructors told us that it would still be a strong HKD program (they even said sparring would be added, also more extensive grappling). Wrong. Training went downhill. Conditioning was the only good thing. The HKD I orginially was learning became crappy TKD with some weak joint locks. No resistance, and no sparring because "we were too deadly". Around this time, for some months, I did Muay Thai/BJJ for about a little over 3 months, but still went to HKD class. I did Muay Thai/BJJ because I was no longer confident in my ability to defend myself.

Then at the end of the summer of 2006, we had a new master coming in, supposedly better then our old one. Wrong once again. He was way more TKD orientated. He even called our techniques "one step sparring" And while he was an excellent TKD instructor, his HKD was just bad. I started going less, and less, and recently I stopped.

For quite sometime, I ripped on Hapkido as a whole. But then I realized, I shouldn't blame it. With our old master, I got in better shape, learned good defensive striking, and great joint locks, and if he would have stayed, no doubt I would have stayed. (I even had to use what I learned in some situations)

I also realized that my old dojang was just a "regular, strip mall dojang" Weak training, and the instructors always claiming that Hapkido was an ancient art. But now I appreciate Hapkido for what it is. A great style with lots to offer, but it definatly depends on the dojang. If it's just a regular strip mall dojang, I tell you beware. But if it's a pure Hapkido dojang (like one of the members, iron_ox goes to) then hurry and go learn.

Now I am doing Jeet Kune Do under a Jerry Poteet certified instructor. (who also did training with the Gracies for awhile)

I do miss Hapkido, and maybe one day, I can also go to a hard training, pure Hapkido dojang.

Thank you for your time. :)

Hello all,

Korpy, I appreciate that your view of Hapkido, and the arts in general has matured so much. Thanks you for the compliment on my dojang, please feel free to drop in and train some time - it would be my pleasure to show you that there are significant differences in what is called Hapkido.

For a schedule, please go to www.hapkidochicago.com

Good luck with you other endeavors in the martial arts.