Mounting Trouble

[flashlock]

Well, I've been doing BJJ for a few weeks now. Boy, I suck! Last night in class, I had this big guy on me in mount. The drill was they were just to keep you in mount, and your goal was to escape-- 2 mins.

I didn't know how to start really. The yellow belt on top of me said I needed to create space with my elbows first, and try to move to my side. I finally recalled that stuff, but it's so hard against a resisting opponent.

I couldn't even get my elbows into him, so instead, I ground the knuckles of my fist into his ribcage. I don't know, he hopped off me quick, and laughed, but then hopped right back into mount, so I did it again.

He said, "OK, I can do dirty stuff too," and he layed on my face and smothered me with his seaty gi till I tapped.

We laughed about it. I don't know what I'm doing or if knuckle grinding is even legal.

Advice on escaping the mount, getting space, and is it legal grinding your knuckles into someone's ribs? :)

[Atharel]

Well, I've been doing BJJ for a few weeks now. Boy, I suck! Last night in class, I had this big guy on me in mount. The drill was they were just to keep you in mount, and your goal was to escape-- 2 mins.

I didn't know how to start really. The yellow belt on top of me said I needed to create space with my elbows first, and try to move to my side. I finally recalled that stuff, but it's so hard against a resisting opponent.

Yellow belt? Under 16 or what? And yeah, that's what practice is for.

I couldn't even get my elbows into him, so instead, I ground the knuckles of my fist into his ribcage. I don't know, he hopped off me quick, and laughed, but then hopped right back into mount, so I did it again.

He said, "OK, I can do dirty stuff too," and he layed on my face and smothered me with his seaty gi till I tapped.

We laughed about it. I don't know what I'm doing or if knuckle grinding is even legal.

Advice on escaping the mount, getting space, and is it legal grinding your knuckles into someone's ribs? :)

Knuckle grinding is legal but doesn't work on someone hyped up on adrenaline or with any kind of pain tolerance.

Two basic escapes from mount: trap+roll (upa) and elbow escape (shrimp/ebi). They combo into each other nicely.

I hope you know the trap+roll already but anyways, you trap one arm and pull it across a bit (just stop him from posting with it) and then trap the same side ankle with your own lower leg. Then bridge and roll to the side you trapped the limbs of while pulling further on the arm and leg. Ideally you end up in top in his guard.

Often, however, they will free their leg and post out with it as you try to roll them. Immediately elbow escape (elbow to knee!!) using the space created by their leg being posted out. This will allow you to work on recovering guard, which may be a multistep process of its own.

If you're comfortable with half guard you can also work on trapping just one leg with your own legs and then working from there (turn into them and try to get an underhook on the same side as the trapped leg). If you have a good elbow escape it's hard for them to stop getting caught in half, and from there you have a lot of options.

But more importantly ask your instructor before your next class to help you a bit with fundamental escapes. They're generally the first things you learn in BJJ but it often takes longer than it should because people unnecessarily figure it out largely on their own. Be proactive in your training. Ask for instruction, that's why he's an instructor.

[1bad65]

Atharel is quite correct and gave very good and sound advice. You also do not want to get mounted 'high'. You want their body over your hips, not your chest. You can tuck your elbows and put them into the guys knee/thigh area so he cannot move up to a high mount. You can still use your hands to protect your neck(in gi) or face(in mma) while your elbows are keeping them 'low'.

[flashlock]

Great advice, thanks. He kept getting that high mount. I'm just learning these positions, so I can't really automatically do anything, I need 5 seconds per shift in position to recall what to do. It is a little frustrating... might ask for some basic help next time before class.

[flashlock]

I guess another reason I wanted to post this was that my "theoretical" knowledge about grappling is pretty good, but actually doing BJJ is feeble. I've been told in 6 months I'll be able to handle these basic positions a lot better. I'm a little perplexed because I wrestled free-style in High School for 2 years; those experiences help, but not too much! Just a little surprised at how different BJJ is. Hm.

[flashlock]

Yellow belt? Under 16 or what? And yeah, that's what practice is for. .

You mean was he under 16 yrs old? No, about 25-30 years old if that's what you meant. Taller and bigger than me. I found it much easier to escape the mount vs someone my size or smaller (I'm medium built).

[Stevebjj]

Some tips to add. There are two ways to trap the arm. If you go over the arm, bring it in strong and tight. Or if you can't get your arm over (like if your arms are in tight where they belong), you can trap his arm by bringing your hand to your ear.

Also, when you upa, the closer you bring your feet to your butt, the stronger you can bridge. If he's got you grapevined, just bring your foot out to the side, then up and over. You can't bridge up if your legs are being tied up.

That's a great drill. I do okay against most guys now, but body weight and the claustrophobia from being cooked out like that is tough. Even after almost 6 months, when I'm outweighed by 50 or more lbs, I'll have a tough time breathing sometimes.

Of course, you'll learn all of this before long in your class. It takes time.

[Stevebjj]

You mean was he under 16 yrs old? No, about 25-30 years old if that's what you meant. Taller and bigger than me. I found it much easier to escape the mount vs someone my size or smaller (I'm medium built).
I think he was asking because yellow isn't a standard BJJ belt color. I've heard of green being used by the American Top Team, but never yellow. Are you sure it wasn't just a very dirty white? :)

[Atharel]

I guess another reason I wanted to post this was that my "theoretical" knowledge about grappling is pretty good, but actually doing BJJ is feeble. I've been told in 6 months I'll be able to handle these basic positions a lot better. I'm a little perplexed because I wrestled free-style in High School for 2 years; those experiences help, but not too much! Just a little surprised at how different BJJ is. Hm.


You have a fever that only more cowbell - err. More mat-time. More mat-time can cure it.

Write down how you feel about the positions and various techniques, note how successful you are in keeping positions, advancing positions, trying submissions. In 6 months do the same, then compare them. You'll be shocked.

[flashlock]

Some tips to add. There are two ways to trap the arm. If you go over the arm, bring it in strong and tight. Or if you can't get your arm over (like if your arms are in tight where they belong), you can trap his arm by bringing your hand to your ear.

Also, when you upa, the closer you bring your feet to your butt, the stronger you can bridge. If he's got you grapevined, just bring your foot out to the side, then up and over. You can't bridge up if your legs are being tied up.

That's a great drill. I do okay against most guys now, but body weight and the claustrophobia from being cooked out like that is tough. Even after almost 6 months, when I'm outweighed by 50 or more lbs, I'll have a tough time breathing sometimes.

Of course, you'll learn all of this before long in your class. It takes time.

Thanks for your feedback! We have to keep our arms tight to our chest, hands close together, or we get punished with push ups! I tried to bridge out, but was advised not to (don't know why). I couldn't trap his arms because they were pinned against his chest as he lurched over me. I couldn't even get my elbows free as I'ved said. He just had me and I was stuck, so... I used my knuckles, I couldn't figure what else to do! Ha! It will take time like you said. Thanks.

[Stevebjj]

Thanks for your feedback! We have to keep our arms tight to our chest, hands close together, or we get punished with push ups! We're taught the same thing. Keeping your arms in gives you some space to breathe and keeps you from getting armbarred. But... you have to move your arms at some point. Bridging up strong should cause the top guy to either sit up some... maybe on one knee, which creates space to hip escape/shrimp. Or it will cause them to put their hands out on the ground above your head. When they're in the air, in that split second after you've bridge, you'll have time to shrimp/hip escape. Or once they've planted their hands on the ground by your head, you can trap an arm (and the leg) and upa to the side.

Another escape when keeping your hands in tight is to bridge up strong, and when they're at their highest, move your hands down to their hips and hold them there while you bring your legs inside to butterfly guard. The key is to bridge up high enough so that you can hold them up without lifting them with your arms so you don't have to benchpress them. I tried to bridge out, but was advised not to (don't know why). Neither do I, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know. Bridging out (the upa escape) was the first one I was taught. I couldn't trap his arms because they were pinned against his chest as he lurched over me. I couldn't even get my elbows free as I'ved said. He just had me and I was stuck, so... I used my knuckles, I couldn't figure what else to do! Ha! It will take time like you said. Thanks.Good luck.

[Stevebjj]

Here's the upa escape in a nutshell:

http://www.bjjfighter.com/techniques/gi/mount/upa_escape.html

[slipthejab]

If someone has the mount on you and you need to reverse that... and trust me... you need to reverse that... then one method that I have good luck with is this...

1) pin one of their arms... by bringing their elbow into your center.
example: they're in mount... shove their left elbow into your center

2) use your right leg and bring it over their left leg... you want to trap that leg so that you can roll them in that direction... everything is to your right

3) once you have your ankle trapping their leg (which will be bent as they're sitting on you in the mount.. so you should be able to get your ankle pretty much on theirs) you need to explosively buck roll and reach with your left hand over in the direction of your right shoulder. Driving up with your ass and legs.

You've trapped and arm and a leg... so they can't post or tripod to defend against your sweeping motion. If you don't trap that arm... the just post an arm and you have nothing. If you don't trap the leg... they can easily post a leg and you still have nothing.

That may not be the best explanation... but check this technqiue out... it's worked great for me against bigger guys in mount - in my case I weigh about 83kg and roll with a guy who is 110 kg. So if it works for me in that case it'll work for you.

[Oversoul]

Atharel is quite correct and gave very good and sound advice. You also do not want to get mounted 'high'.

Really? I find that one much easier to escape than the regular version.

[flashlock]

If someone has the mount on you and you need to reverse that... and trust me... you need to reverse that... then one method that I have good luck with is this...

1) pin one of their arms... by bringing their elbow into your center.
example: they're in mount... shove their left elbow into your center

2) use your right leg and bring it over their left leg... you want to trap that leg so that you can roll them in that direction... everything is to your right

3) once you have your ankle trapping their leg (which will be bent as they're sitting on you in the mount.. so you should be able to get your ankle pretty much on theirs) you need to explosively buck roll and reach with your left hand over in the direction of your right shoulder. Driving up with your ass and legs.

You've trapped and arm and a leg... so they can't post or tripod to defend against your sweeping motion. If you don't trap that arm... the just post an arm and you have nothing. If you don't trap the leg... they can easily post a leg and you still have nothing.

That may not be the best explanation... but check this technqiue out... it's worked great for me against bigger guys in mount - in my case I weigh about 83kg and roll with a guy who is 110 kg. So if it works for me in that case it'll work for you.

Very nice, thank you! Being from a "striking" background, I'm used to executing combinations just boom, boom, boom, you know? I'm learning with BJJ it's quite a different fight--you have to first do A, then B, then C, THEN D--you just don't "boom boom" to D. Very alien, but I'm loving it! I really believe in it, and if I can get half as good as the people around me, I'll feel I've done well.

[Atharel]

Really? I find that one much easier to escape than the regular version.

Do you use the backdoor escape, or something else?

flashlock - yeah, comboing and setups are crucial. Get the individual bits down before you start chaining em tho ;)

[fanatical]

Really? I find that one much easier to escape than the regular version.

That's unusual. What kind of escapes to you use against a high mount?

[PASmith]

Coming from a striking background you'll understand that if you're knuckling his ribs then he can knuckle your face.
Basically that's what the mount is for. Punching people in the face.
The Upa works well here as you will be tying up one of his arms which means one less to hit you with.

One thing I always try to stress is that movement is good.
If you buck he can't hit with conviction (as he'll be regaining his base all the time).
If you buck it creates space. Space is your friend.
If you buck he might make a mistake you can use.

By that I don't mean thrash about and gas out but that the intelligent application of movement (or prevention of movement) is what ground fighting is all about. Without movement you're a sitting duck.

[Stevebjj]

Can anyone help me out with why he might have been told to not move his arms at all? I really don't see how you can reverse mount without your arms.

[Yohan]

The most useful mount escape I know. I'll pick one side and use it:

Step 1: Place your left elbow inside your opponents right knee.

Step 2: Rotate your hips to the left, so that your left leg is on the ground, lying essentially straight.

Step 3: With your right leg, reach over and hook your opponents right ankle, with your right foot/ankle, and pull it up and over your left leg.

Once in that position, pull your left knee up to your body (this is why you have your left elbow inside your opponents knee), you will just about be in the half guard, so establish a strong half guard and insert half-guard

[Rebel Wado]

Can anyone help me out with why he might have been told to not move his arms at all? I really don't see how you can reverse mount without your arms.

Mid-mount is more for striking... high mount, however, is more for submissions. If you put your arm up and they have high mount on you, it is like giving them your arm to submit.

[Stevebjj]

Mid-mount is more for striking... high mount, however, is more for submissions. If you put your arm up and they have high mount on you, it is like giving them your arm to submit.Thanks, Rebel Wado. I appreciate your response. I don't think I'm being clear. I'm not suggesting putting your arms up, and I can definitely understand needing to protect your face and neck by keeping your arms in tight. Believe me, I understand how important that is.

I'm asking how you can reverse mount without using your arms. Flashlock mentioned being punished with pushups if he didn't keep his arms in tight. In the context of the drill, if he was told not to use his arms, he had exactly zero chance of reversing that guys mount. I can understand needing to keep your arms in tight. I know the dangers of extending your arms up and asking to be armbarred. but without your arms, you can't shrimp effectively, nor can you hope to upa. At some point you need to use your arms to either drive a hip away or trap an arm. I'm obviously missing something important.

[fanatical]

I think you're reading to much into "keeping your arms tight" Don't be a detail nazi!! :p When a guy is poking ribs to get out of mount, there are a lot of basics that need to be nugded in.

[Stevebjj]

I think you're reading to much into "keeping your arms tight" Don't be a detail nazi!! :p When a guy is poking ribs to get out of mount, there are a lot of basics that need to be nugded in.Fair enough!

I will say this. There are guys in my school with whom I'll still work on relaxing, working, and most importantly breathing from the bottom. I'll try and sweep or at least work from guard, but mostly it's me just trying to survive. There's one guy in particular who's a good 290 (100lbs up on me). Keeping my arms in helps me breathe, but it also protects me from literally popping a rib when he moves to side control or mount (god forbid).

I didn't mean to make more of it than was intended. :)

[1bad65]

Mid-mount is more for striking... high mount, however, is more for submissions. If you put your arm up and they have high mount on you, it is like giving them your arm to submit.


If you get a high mount the arms have to come up, there is nowhere else for them to go!

[Rebel Wado]

Fair enough!

I will say this. There are guys in my school with whom I'll still work on relaxing, working, and most importantly breathing from the bottom. I'll try and sweep or at least work from guard, but mostly it's me just trying to survive. There's one guy in particular who's a good 290 (100lbs up on me). Keeping my arms in helps me breathe, but it also protects me from literally popping a rib when he moves to side control or mount (god forbid).

I didn't mean to make more of it than was intended. :)

I will say this... if I'm on the bottom and I don't want to be there, I'm going to kick, claw, bite, elbow, jack, scratch like some wild animal at a million miles per hour before they get a good hold on me. Now 9 out of 10 times a good wrestler/grappler will end up taking my back but they won't get top mount on me. :p

I may be giving horrible advice, but basically if you are in a disadvantaged position, speed things up... DON'T BE PASSIVE AND LET THEM GET A GOOD HOLD AND POSITION ON YOU.

If the above fails and you do end up unable to avoid being in a disadvantaged position, then one of the most important things other than protecting yourself (which includes being able to breath), is to figure out how you are being immobilized. Then you have choices:

1. break free what they have immobilized (what they are holding you down by)

2. Or move what is not immobilized and use that to gain better position and attack

3. Or move what is not immobilized and use that to break free that which is immobilized.

Now TOP MOUNT is just the same as GUARD except turned upside down. The only difference is how you are being immobilized with the ground being a factor.

If you were in guard instead of mount in the same position, how would you escape (pass the guard). Now turn that upside down and work it from being under top mount, see what adjustments need to be made.

If you do this, you might better see how vulnerable you are to submissions, if they can do it to you from the guard, they can do it to you from the mount. Work it!!!

[Yohan]

Instead of clawing, scratching biting, pushing, etc, learn 3 escapes and try them, one after the other, and try to flow from one escape to the next. It's like punching or anything else. Bridge left, bridge right, trap arm and leg and bridge right again, shrimp, bridge middle, etc . . . .

That's what will get you out of a mount.

[Rebel Wado]

Instead of clawing, scratching biting, pushing, etc, learn 3 escapes and try them, one after the other, and try to flow from one escape to the next. It's like punching or anything else. Bridge left, bridge right, trap arm and leg and bridge right again, shrimp, bridge middle, etc . . . .

That's what will get you out of a mount.

What you mean actually learn technique? But then I wouldn't waste energy and if I didn't waste energy so inefficiently, I would not be able to sell this as Cardio Crappling, the new weight loss program... better than Taebo because this is grappling, not striking. :Alien:

seriously though, you know Yohan I agree with you... I was actually saying what I did because people get very used to training escapes when in fact, what they really need to work on primarily is not the escape (which is important) but in learning how to avoid getting in bad positions. Best mount escape is literally do not let them get mount on you.

[Yohan]

seriously though, you know Yohan I agree with you... I was actually saying what I did because people get very used to training escapes when in fact, what they really need to work on primarily is not the escape (which is important) but in learning how to avoid getting in bad positions. Best mount escape is literally do not let them get mount on you.

Well, that is a questions of strategy or tactics moreso than technique. I personally can't argue with the tactics that other people train.

[Connovar]

What you mean actually learn technique? But then I wouldn't waste energy and if I didn't waste energy so inefficiently, I would not be able to sell this as Cardio Crappling, the new weight loss program... better than Taebo because this is grappling, not striking. :Alien:

seriously though, you know Yohan I agree with you... I was actually saying what I did because people get very used to training escapes when in fact, what they really need to work on primarily is not the escape (which is important) but in learning how to avoid getting in bad positions. Best mount escape is literally do not let them get mount on you.

I would take opposite approach. BJJ is like a game of chess. In chess you have to know how to make all the pieces move, the same thing for bjj. So I would suggest learning the mechanics of the uppa and the elbow escape. Then find somoone who is not as heavy as you and start with yourself being mounted. Get comfortable there with breathing and the wt on you. Then have him try submissions while you try to escape. If you get submitted or you escape then do it again. Often the oppening for the mount occurs just at the moment of an attempted submission so be attentive to his subtle shifts of weight. Learn all the positions. Dont leave a hole in your game.

[Rebel Wado]

Well, that is a questions of strategy or tactics moreso than technique. I personally can't argue with the tactics that other people train.

But I can argue with anyone at any time... :p


I would take opposite approach. BJJ is like a game of chess. In chess you have to know how to make all the pieces move, the same thing for bjj. So I would suggest learning the mechanics of the uppa and the elbow escape. Then find somoone who is not as heavy as you and start with yourself being mounted. Get comfortable there with breathing and the wt on you. Then have him try submissions while you try to escape. If you get submitted or you escape then do it again. Often the oppening for the mount occurs just at the moment of an attempted submission so be attentive to his subtle shifts of weight. Learn all the positions. Dont leave a hole in your game.

I think we are actually saying the same thing. If you recall, the original poster in this thread was having trouble with a person that had more grappling experience in BJJ (yellow belt), was 100 lbs heavier than him, and was getting high mount on him. He had 2 minutes to get out of it.

Take everything I said in the context of this situation because that is the situation I am addressing. IME, high mount is for submission, not for hanging around for hours and riding out the storm. A person on top has many options, they can even stick a finger in your ear, you might not even think about putting your hand up to defend against it, next thing you are in a key lock or arm bar. Given they are at least a 100 lbs bigger, this makes a big difference.

You can't play defensive all day when they have the initiative. Chess is about taking the initiative, being ahead of the game, more moves ahead than the opponent can counter.

So I'm saying that you got to take it up a level and rather than a game of chess, you take to the game of speed chess. Get the person in the dominant position to speed up and make mistakes.

When they start to make mistakes then they will give you more room to maneuver and counter.

Give someone a hundred pounds on you in wrestling is like giving them an extra power piece in chess. Play a game of chess without your queen but they have theirs... it is not an even match. Make it a game of speed chess and they can be forced to make mistakes, you can take their advantage away from them.

If the opposite, I'm the bigger guy on top mount, I want to slow things down. Methodically breakdown the opponent.

IME.

Edit: Clarification, I do agree that the basics are necessary and should not be skipped out on.

[Connovar]

Yes, I think I may misunderstood you. Often the opening comes when the opponent is rushed. For me however I do better just waiting for the opponent to start setting up a submission. Often his wt/or attention is else where allowing for a quick uppa to unbalance etc

I used to hate being in someones mount especially if they were quite a bit heavier. I would almost get claustrophic from the pressure, but I had to learn to relax, conserve energy and then move when the time was ripe. Now I am actually have a strong defense from that position.

[KempoFist]

I like the speed chess analogy :)

[flashlock]

Coming from a striking background you'll understand that if you're knuckling his ribs then he can knuckle your face.
Basically that's what the mount is for. Punching people in the face.
The Upa works well here as you will be tying up one of his arms which means one less to hit you with.

One thing I always try to stress is that movement is good.
If you buck he can't hit with conviction (as he'll be regaining his base all the time).
If you buck it creates space. Space is your friend.
If you buck he might make a mistake you can use.

By that I don't mean thrash about and gas out but that the intelligent application of movement (or prevention of movement) is what ground fighting is all about. Without movement you're a sitting duck.

Nice pointers, ta.

[RandomTriangle]

Funny... i really don't use the mount position much...

i'm a bigger fan of knee on belly... if i feel like mounting it's pretty easy from KOB... but then again ANY dominant position is easy to transition to from KOB.

BTW, i only use bucking and shrimping to escape mount (and every variation of side control)...

BUT if you're training with a Gi a VERY effective yet SIMPLE way to escape mount is to reach around the person on top of you and pull their belt up (just enough to...), stick one of your feet in their belt :) then push with your one leg and your hands (on his hips).

You can use that escape on people who weigh more than 100 lbs more than you. Just be aware of any chokes before going for the move.

[Oversoul]

Do you use the backdoor escape, or something else?

Yeah, backdoor escape.

[jamie1976]

forget the arms leave the arms alone at the most trap an arm to keep his attention AWAY from his legs if you can get your legs into a gaurd position then your there! then with the arm you trapped earlier roll him over to that side this is obviously easier said than done but with practise it works everytime :woo:

jamie :woo:

[fanatical]

what?

[RandomTriangle]

i think he's saying to shrimp (elbow escape).

i forget if anyone mentioned... when you buck try placing both hands on your partners hips... now buck like normal BUT when your hips reach the top, AS your hips are about to drop (and are dropping) straighten your arms.

Now insert one of your legs in-between your partner’s legs, basically on their crotch. NOW from there you can perform a sick heel hook by wrapping your other leg properly... but most people will opt to simply roll your partner over...

That's my favorite No Gi mount escape..

Don't try extending your arms right away... let your hips throw the person up first... work on the timing of the hip/arm movement and you'll be set

BTW if you're escaping from the a high mount via a back door escape... your partner isn't that good (or you're a black belt)

[Oversoul]

BTW if you're escaping from the a high mount via a back door escape... your partner isn't that good (or you're a black belt)

If I could only escape north/south with a backdoor escape...

[EternalRage]

i think he's saying to shrimp (elbow escape).

i forget if anyone mentioned... when you buck try placing both hands on your partners hips... now buck like normal BUT when your hips reach the top, AS your hips are about to drop (and are dropping) straighten your arms.

Now insert one of your legs in-between your partner’s legs, basically on their crotch. NOW from there you can perform a sick heel hook by wrapping your other leg properly... but most people will opt to simply roll your partner over...

That's my favorite No Gi mount escape..
This is the one I was going to post (also my favorite!) - except when I do it, the leg that you say you put on the crotch - I keep that as a butterfly hook and then wrap the my other leg around the opponent's extended leg.

Also one of the upa variations I do is I try and bridge hard to get the opponent to buck forward so that they have to post with both hands, then I reach up through and overhook around one arm and his body. The problem with this is if you don't do it fast enough and if your opponent regains balance quickly you're looking at an armbar - either from high mount or the standard arm bar setup. Or if your opponent is an Eddie Bravo fan, you're looking at Monkey Mount.

Simplest one that I use sometimes in conjuction with the other ones is to just stick one elbow against same side knee (ie your left to opponent's right knee) and then stick the opposite side knee (ie your right) up against his butt. Hip bump and slide the other leg under for half guard (this would be your left). Someone posted something like this before, except using one (in this case right leg) leg to hook the opponent's ankle.