I need help on which style to choose.

[Smitty16]

Hey,
I need help on a style to choose. I have 3 choices to pick from. Those choices are Judo, Aikido and Okinawan Shorin Ryu. I want to choose a style that will help me the most in a street fight and not somthing that is more of a show off sport. I want a U.S Navy Seals. So please tell me which one of the three stlyes I should choose and why and if you know of any links or any other information that could further help right that down to. Thank you for your time. Bye.

[zun]

Originally posted by Smitty16
Hey,
I need help on a style to choose. I have 3 choices to pick from. Those choices are Judo, Aikido and Okinawan Shorin Ryu. I want to choose a style that will help me the most in a street fight and not somthing that is more of a show off sport.

Why not go along to the classes and find the one that suits you?

I want a U.S Navy Seals.

Only way to be a Navy Seal is to join the US Navy Seals. No Shortcuts.

[tai-gip]

smitty if you have time and money do all three

[Monty]

Street fighting is what you want to get out of your training ??
Okay, from the three styles mentioned, you should go for Shorin Ryu then.
For street fighting Judo and Aikido aren't that well suited.

[Smitty16]

alright thanks sir.

[snake_vs_crane]

to me judo would also be suitable

[Aravi]

It's been said before, it'll be said again.

It's the practitioner that makes the martial art effective.

Any of those three will work if they fit the practitioner, none of them will be effective if they do not fit the practitioner.

[hongkongfuey]

I want to choose a style that will help me the most in a street fight


The secret art of the 100m sprint is always effective in a street situation. The best way to 'win' a street fight is not to get in one! ;)

I agree with Aravi and Zun - find the art that most suits you (physically and psychologically), and train at it for many years. There are no shortcuts to becoming a good fighter - just blood sweat and tears.

[Jackie Li]

Ju jitsu Definitly. Its not to fancy and it gets the job done.

[Monty]

@SNAKE_VS_CRANE:

Judo isn't really that well suited for self defense. It's basically a very "friendly" game.
Judo is based upon throwing an opponent, but preferably in such maner that he doesn't get hurt.
You throw to win the fight, or to position yourself for control techniques.

While a throw may be effective for self defense (if you ever get a grip on your opponent), most of the control techniques from Judo are based upon you yourself getting horizontal on the ground and locking your opponent.

In a self defense situation I'd try to avoid getting in a horizontal position at all.
1) It's a lot more difficult for yourself to get outta there.
2) Your opponent may have friends that are just waiting for you to get down on the ground, using both your arms to lock this guy.

[Hakko-Ryu]

either you crosstrain in a striking and a grappling style...or learn a striking style first...then grappling later....but both stand up and ground level of MA is necessary for you to be an efficient fighter. Stand up is essentially easier and faster to learn than groundfighting stuff. Judo would be a good choice if the school also teaches you sufficient striking. Throwing can most often end a fight if done correctly and with some power...(most people don't know how to break a fall from a throw). Japanese Jujitsu would be a great style to learn for self defense overrall, if it is available to you...but since you say you have 3 choices (only 3?) then i say you try all 3 and see which one suits your personal needs better...

[snake_vs_crane]

"Judo isn't really that well suited for self defense. It's basically a very "friendly" game.
Judo is based upon throwing an opponent, but preferably in such maner that he doesn't get hurt.
You throw to win the fight, or to position yourself for control techniques.

While a throw may be effective for self defense (if you ever get a grip on your opponent), most of the control techniques from Judo are based upon you yourself getting horizontal on the ground and locking your opponent.

In a self defense situation I'd try to avoid getting in a horizontal position at all.
1) It's a lot more difficult for yourself to get outta there.
2) Your opponent may have friends that are just waiting for you to get down on the ground, using both your arms to lock this guy."

this guy wants to be a navy seal, navy seals will be carrying a lot of heavy equipment and weapons of various varieties for a large amount of the time, this means several things:

his ability to out maneuver his opponent will be severely limited and he will have a lot of extra wheight, hence ending up on the ground or in a choke will not be a matter of his choosing.

he will be armed with medium and long range weaponary, his major disadvantage will be when someone manages to close the distance sufficiently so that this will no longer be effective, in my oppinion this is the best aspect to cover from a hand to hand perspective.

I understand what you are saying and agree in places, but the fact is a any situation with multiple opponents is a bad one regardless of your style. Aslo, what i have seen of judo in general places it a bit differently from a "freindly game".

[Monty]

@SNAKE_VS_CRANE:

The original post was about a style that would help the most in a street fight.
And to me effectiveness in a street fight is far from the rules of Judo. I really don't see any reason why I should try to get horizontal to armlock a guy, even if his friends are nowhere near.
And that would be my only weapon other than the takedown itself. Judo doesn't practise any kind of strikes or kicks, as they are not part of the Judo rules.

No matter if you have seen Judo as a friendly game or not, the name itself means "gentle way".
It is a pure sport style, and as such it is not intended to do bodily harm to your opponent.

As for what you write about a Navy Seal carrying heavy equipment and therefore limiting movement, ........have you ever tried to do a hip throw on a guy, while you're wearing a 90 lbs backpack ?
Talk about limitations that would downright outrule the use of most Judo techniques !

Chokes, yes .... but other than that Judo is definately not a street fighting style.

[Smitty16]

would Shorin-Ryu be a good style for the street fighting/ Navy Seal idea?

[Monty]

@SMITTY16:

It's my honest opinion that for street use, Shorin-Ryu is the better suited of the styels you initially mentioned.
But why not crosstrain, with Shorin Ryu as your foundation ?
That way you'll get the mindset of karate, but also some grappling knowledge.

As for the Seal idea ...... I would think that any martial arts experience would come in handy.
For thereasons mentioned above, I would say that Judo and Aikido are probably to "friendly" for Seal use, and that the more agressive mind set of karate would be preferred.
But the respect and discipline taught in any martial art should come in handy in any type of military training.

[snake_vs_crane]

@Monty

"Talk about limitations that would downright outrule the use of most Judo techniques !"

it would affect a lot of techs in judo, but think of a striking art, i think it would be limited even more.

"Judo is definately not a street fighting style."

I strongly disagree that you can teach someone how to fight in a life or death situation in "the street" by going over drills and sparring in a dojo. The closest most of us get to a realistic combat situation is full contact sparring, from what i have heard of the judo concept of randori it is a decent way to spar and will give you as much skill in a streetfight as any other art will.

"No matter if you have seen Judo as a friendly game or not, the name itself means "gentle way".

It is a pure sport style, and as such it is not intended to do bodily harm to your opponent."

You have just contradicted yourself here, a sport style is competition oriented ie. not very freindly, if it was freindly then some bjj guy or wrestler would walk in off the street and claim all the international titles, also the term gentle in this context does not directly relate to the end result of your action, just how the action itself is undertaken.

If i am not mistaken one of the goals of judo on the ground is to get your opponent to "tap out" or admit s/he has lost the match, this involves either creating enough pain to force your opponent to tap or to make something go wrong in his system (example a dislocated shoulder) which will not only bring the aforementioned pain but a strong incentive from a medical point of view for him to tap. Both of these methods require techniques that indeed could and would harm your opponent in a real situation.

"I really don't see any reason why I should try to get horizontal to armlock a guy, even if his friends are nowhere near.
And that would be my only weapon other than the takedown itself."

thats bjj you are thinking of, judo throws may be harmless when your opponent knows how to break fall onto a nice soft mat, but take those two elements away and the result gets a bit nastier. I do agree that striking is a good thing to have, but grappling is every bit as valid an option.

"But why not crosstrain, with Shorin Ryu as your foundation ?"

i agree, cross training would probably be the best option here, that way you also negate the possibility of getting a less combat oriented school (like many karate and judo schools are today), as for your base art, i think thats something you can decide for yourself, take the style you like the most and make it your base.

[dabdilla]

I would opt for Aikido, Yoshinkan style. It is trained by the japanese riot police andfound it very effective. You should give it a try. Regards

[J-kid]

IF these are truely your only choice, then go for which ever works or maybe do all three. Check them all out before you make your choice, its not always the style it can also be the instructer.

are you sure these are your only choices?

[Thomas]

I see there is an ongoing debate on the merits of a (competition) style as a practical style to learn before military service.

In my own experience as a ex-soldier and martial artist, I think any style of martial arts is good. The real key to martial arts is taking the skills and techniques and ADAPTING them to the situation based on need and condition.

Some people get hung up and turn against arts which have competition, like Taekwondo or Judo. Remember that people who teach and study these arts DO NOT necessarily teach just for competition. Some schools may focus on competiton techniques but necesarily all. The main component is to learn how to fight and defend yourself and then TAKE THOSE SKILLS OUTSIDE OF THE DOJANG and apply them.

For example, most soldiers in the South Korean military learn Taekwondo. Yes, it has a competition element, but has been a martial art of choice for troops in Korea. Also Korean TKD instructors were sent to Vietnam to train the South Vietnamese forces and US special forces. US Special Forces, Recon, and SEALS train in a variety of martial arts including karate, Taekwondo, Judo, and others. Again, the idea is to take the techniques, skill and discipline and adapt it to thesituation.

For the person who wants to learn a style of martial art and then become a SEAL, my advice is to check out all of the nearby schools and try them out. Also talk to the instructors and ask their advice. When you find a school that feels good and seems like a good learning environment, join it and train hard. Good luck!

Again, don't worry about the "name" of a style. Look for a school with instructors and students who want to learn how to apply the skills and techniques of that art to areas beyond the dojang.

[Yama Tombo]

Only way to be a Navy Seal is to join the US Navy Seals. No Shortcuts.

What if he's not that old to join the SEALs?

Anyway, Martial Arts and Navy Seals, all I can say is train with any of them. Choose the one you like and you'll be well suited.

[Monty]

@SNAKE_VS_CRANE:

Just a few comments:

Judo is a sport.
Sports are entertaining. They may be competitive, yes. But none of them has destroying your life as a goal.
The main theme in sports is not to kill or maim the opponent, it's to score enough points to win the game.

Judo has a point system.
Yes, you force your opponent to tap out, by inflicting pain.
BUT, the main reason he is forced to tap out, is that the rules of the game prohibits the use of many of the kicks, strikes, and vital targets that in a street fight would force the controlling person to release the lock.

Let's go back to the rules and the mindset ...
If the goal was to do bodily harm (or to dislocate his shoulder, as you say), one way of doing so would be to just apply max pressure right away.
But in "The Gentle Way", you gradually apply pressure, allowing the guy to tap out before he is hurt.
That's the way it should be !
But it's definately not a mindset that works in a street fight.

Yes, Judo throws themselves may be harmful if you haven't practised breakfall. And that makes the throws and chokes the only effective street weapons of Judo.

Oh, and breakfall is mainly practised to fall on a mat, intended for practising throws. If you throw a Judoka in the street, chances are he'll get hurt too.

[Smitty16]

Thanks for helping. I found a new style of Martial arts near my house called Ju-Jistu I saw this was highly combative? Is Ju-Jitsu a street fighting style?

[snake_vs_crane]

@ Monty

"BUT, the main reason he is forced to tap out, is that the rules of the game prohibits the use of many of the kicks, strikes, and vital targets that in a street fight would force the controlling person to release the lock."

saying that any grappling technique can be countered with a striking technique is simply false, the dynamics of a fight with grappling involved often prevent effective striking, yes it is possible to strike your way out of a grappling situation, but only as possible as it is to grapple your way out of a striking situation. If you dont believe me then i am told the ultimate fighting champoinship provides more than adequate proof of this. I am not saying grappling is better, but dismissing it as inferior either in sport or the real world will probably get you into trouble.


"The main theme in sports is not to kill or maim the opponent, it's to score enough points to win the game."


This is the main theme of all martial arts, to simulate killing as closely as possible and then to win the simulation, i doubt a karate school will let you kill or maim a fellow student to improve your art any more than a judo school would. Now lets look at what removes "the game" of sparring in a dojo from street combat, to my mind there are three main aspects:

1. your condition
2.the enviroment
3.the techniques allowed

1: Whenever you train in a dojo you will be at least in reasonably good condition, you will be as physically and mentaly prepared for a confrontation as possible, you know what to expect and when to expect it, you will have no disabling injures or sicknesses. Most of the people who choose to attack you in the real world will be predators by nature, they will attack when you are not ready or prepared in any way, also you may indeed have a bad injury at the time. This aspect is not style specific, the style type has little influence on it, so lets move on.

2: A fight is usually not a matter of choice or convenience, therefore the enviroment may vary greatly. For instance a slippery carpark would favour the judo exponent as he risks less damage when falling and is used to combat on the ground wheras in an enclosed space where throwing and groundwork were not a possibility karate may have the upper hand. We could go on debating every possible location for a fight and which style it would favor but do you really think there is that much of a difference in the balance of power? if so then i would actually put it in favour of judo however thats just my oppinion, so again lets presume both styles relatively equal and move on.

3: Now here we get to the most common argument for why sport martial arts arnt effective compared to non sport martial arts, that certain "deadly" techniques are not trained and therefore the sport martial artist has to stick within his narrow and limited style while the non sport martial artist uses one of these "magical" maneuvers to end the fight in seconds.

Such techniques listed are often the eye gouge, the throat crush, the testicle crush etc. now some of these techniques are genuinely effective in a real situation, however, if you have never trained them against a live opponent then how can you say YOU can make the work? the mindset "it will work because sensei said so" is getting a little old. So basically you have about as much chance as anyone else as getting these techs working in a real situation, but unlike you other people do not rely on them and therefore will only use them when they have created an oppertunity with their practiced skills. Also you have to take into account the deterioration of the situation, what may not start out as a life or death matter could easily turn so in the middle, so are you going to kill everyone who looks at you the wrong way with your "deadly technique" or wait until you are sure in the confrontation, where your opponent will probably have you in an inferior position, a heck of a place to test a technique for the first time.

And yes judo does not practice any striking, however the last time i was in a karate school i didnt see all too much grappling ;)

"Yes, Judo throws themselves may be harmful if you haven't practised breakfall. And that makes the throws and chokes the only effective street weapons of Judo."

if you happen to end up on the ground then wont groundwork also come into play? so basically the only usefull parts of judo are the throws chokes and groundwork... what else is there?

@Smitty16

i apologise if monty and i are confusing you with our arguing but dont worry too much, the only real way you will know what style suits you is to train in a few styles, shop around, form an oppinion of your own.

After all, the path of martial arts is one you must find yourself.

[Van_the_cookie_man]

Is Ju-Jitsu a street fighting style?

Street situations are so diverse. There are an infinite amount of possible street situations and all styles can be applied to a certain siutation with proper training. You should focus more on the way the dojo teaches the art and if you feel like the art is for you then what other people categorize the art.

[Yama Tombo]

Newb4life is right, stret fights are so diverse there is no way of telling what a person might do you have to worry about weapons; if you get into a fight and you know all this martial arts stuff, then you get shot between the eyes. That stuff really didn't work now did it?

(this goes against everything I just said...)And as for street fights Krav Maga was developed for that purpose though no one has any real schools open for it, you can get tapes on it. Helps you fight like an animal (..I mean it gets you pumped.) and teaches you somethings about weapon defense.

[Monty]

@SNAKE_VS_CRANE:

I think you're drifting a bit here. You're arguing as if I said that Karate is the best street fighting style there is. I'm not saying it is.

I also haven't got anything against Judo. I think it's a great sport. All I'm saying is that because it's a sport, because of it's rules, and because of it's mindset, it's not a style suited for street fighting/self defense.

Judo uses armlocks by gradually applying pressure, until the opponent taps out.
You point out that Karate also doesn't practice the techniques that could end a street fight.
True, they don't do groin kicks full force. But they DO target that area, and they DO practice full force blows to shields, in breaking tests and such.
So in karate you practice where to strike, and how hard.
That would equal a Judoka practising fight ending armlocks by breaking a broomstick, doing a Kanukki Gatame.
That just isn't done in Judo.

In your initial post, you said that:
"Aslo, what i have seen of judo in general places it a bit differently from a "freindly game"."
From what you have seen ?
I take it you haven't actually practised Judo then ? Well, I have ... on numerous occasions. And I didn't pick the style for one reason .... it's not suited for street use.

If you check out my profile, you'll see that I have been in martial arts since 1978.
I have based all my training on the self defense aspect.
In 1988 I started my own martial arts school, again based upon self defense.
Over the years I have practised other styles. The ones that I have mentioned in my profile are only the ones that I have been practising for more than 5 years.
The only exception is Kenpo, which I took up a few months ago. The reason that one is on my list, is that I intend to keep up that training.

In my profile I didn't mention the fact that I'm also an ex army sarge, and that I worked proffesionally as a bar bouncer for 4 years.

I think it's fair to say that I do know how to distinguish between a street style and a sport. And I do know about martial arts in a military context.

And when I elaborate on Judo, I'm NOT thinking of BJJ.
I also hold an instructor's certificate in BAE Combat JuJitsu, so I do know the differences between Judo and JuJitsu.

We can keep up this discussion, but I'm pretty sure it will be locked by an administrator very soon.

[Smitty16]

So is Jiu-Jitsu a good street fighting style or not? And what is the diffrence between Brazilian and Japanese Ju-Jitsu?

[Monty]

JiuJitsu is definately a good street fighting style.
You can't really point out differences in BJJ and JJJ, as there are JJJ styles that work similar to BJJ.

Generally JuJitsu covers all aspects of fighting equally, at distance, close, throwing, weapons and groundwork.
I would say that BJJ is primarely groundwork. They're great at dealing with an opponent who's on the floor, and controlling him completely.

The JuJitsu style I practised was a combat style, with matches starting at distance (semi contact, points like in karate). Once you got close enough to throw, you could do that (points for throws, like in Judo), and once on the ground, you'd grapple (points for submission, slightly different rules than Judo .... eg. controlling one arm wasn't enough).
Besides the matches, of course we practised the techniques like any other style, also techniques that would involve weapons.

JiuJitsu is definately good street fighting/self defense.
At least if you find a school that teaches JJ as a self defense or combative style.

[snake_vs_crane]

@Monty

please do not think i was in any was meaning to disrespect you or put doubt upon your experience and judgement as a martial artist, i was just engaging in a logical argument. And yea, I think we have taken the discussion pretty much as far as it can go in that context. if any mods are reading then please dont lock the thread on account of me as i have made all the points i care to make on the topic.

[Spikedude]

try em all see what you can learn best

[Monty]

@SNAKE_VS_CRANE:
By your last post, you certainly earned my respect :)

It's quite obvious that there are point on which you and I will probably never agree, but that's just the way a martial arts discussion should be.
I look forward to reading your comments in many posts to come.