BJJ Class Etiquette

[flashlock]

Hi, all--

I've recently joined a BJJ club. It's my first and only experience in an actual BJJ/ Gracie JJ club (or any jj for that matter). I really find the relaxed nature of the classes refreshing, and was wondering if this is the norm in BJJ clubs.

The instructor is a multi-national champion of NZ and Australia, and has competed in the world championships (he's a brown belt). He cracks me up. For example, he needed to say something, so he pulled out this whistle and blew it. He started talking, then some students kept chatting, so he said, "Shut the hell up, I didn't spend three dollars on this lovely whistle for nothing."

During class, there's usually recent UFC or BJJ matches playing on the wall-mounted TV, with the volume up.

He quite often shares stories about going to local kung fu and karate schools and challenging them all--with the predicted results. One story, he went to a YMCA or whatever for Judo, but went on the wrong night--Kung Fu night! They invited him to spar, so he did, entered, brought them all to the ground individually, and submitted them. The teacher said BJJ was crap because he could... "gouge your eyes out." So my instructor said, "Do whatever you want, go for my eyes." Apparently, my instructor took him down in the first 10 seconds and punched him from the mount in the face. When the kung fu instructor put up his hands to block, my instructor put him in an arm bar and BROKE his arm in half at the elbow (kerrrrrrunch). After, in the locker room, the whole class rushed my teacher--who thought he was now in trouble for beating their sifu. Luckily, they just wanted to learn where they could take BJJ! The kung fu school went under soon after.

There's a lot of mach talk, and my instructor will just bluntly say that, yes he's biased, but BJJ is the best (and he's got a 2nd dan in TKD--gave it up after a BJJ white belt destroyed him).

I personally enjoy this kind of banter. I think it's related to the macho Brazilian culture? I'm sure it's not for everyone, but is this kind of thing common, or is my teacher just a character? It's just so different from the somber, serious dojos I'm used to, it kind of blows my mind. I much prefer these relaxed classes. Are they the norm?

Thanks...

[piratebrido]

The things that are said in my class are quite shocking - you just come to the conclusion that people who do BJJ aren't normal, which includes me and probably you.

[Hiroji]

well, to me your instructor sounds like an arrogant prat.

But hey, if you got it flaunt it :D

[Stevebjj]

Well, I don't know about all of that, but the atmosphere at my school is relaxed, although I get the impression that my coach/instructor is a little more formal that most. We bow into and out of class, shake hands with everyone in class at the end of every class, and the classes are well structured. Other than that, it's pretty laid back.

[KempoFist]

I've never heard of dojo-storming bravado where I train....jeez. That woulda actually kinda put me off, even though the stories are amusing if true.

The closest I hear, is one of the brown belts citing UFC fights as evidence of the practicality of the given technique we are working on.

[pauli]

Well, I don't know about all of that, but the atmosphere at my school is relaxed, although I get the impression that my coach/instructor is a little more formal that most. We bow into and out of class, shake hands with everyone in class at the end of every class, and the classes are well structured. Other than that, it's pretty laid back.
what he said, except we don't bother bowing in (setting up the mats runs directly into warmup).

every school is different, every instructor is different. some bjj schools are zoos, and some could pass muster as judo (relaxed judo, but judo).

we've discussed it at class, and frankly, we all like a bit of protocol. not too much. just enough. i think it helps some of the people remember that we aren't there to break each other. we're there to have fun.

of course, my instructor is already giving me instructions for protocol changes when his (significantly more formal) instructor eventually comes to visit us from brazil...

[1bad65]

The relaxed nature is the norm from what I've seen. Calling your instructor by his first name, no bowing, no titles is cool for me. Also in BJJ you can ask anyone to roll. Alot of TMA schools the lower belts cannot ask the higher ones to spar I have heard.

I trained under a guy for awile who got into BJJ at ~15. He was American, but often went to Brazil and trained there too. At 16 he was a blue belt. He often went to other schools and dropped challenges. He said the look on people's faces when a 16 year old kid dominated the instructor was priceless.

[pauli]

Also in BJJ you can ask anyone to roll. Alot of TMA schools the lower belts cannot ask the higher ones to spar I have heard.this does vary. in theory, at my school, if say a white belt wants to roll with a blue belt, they have to wait for an invitation, and the kids have to wait for an invitation from any adult, regardless of experience.

in practice... we only use this when kids are there, so that nobody (by which i mean me) gets mobbed by 12 year olds.

[Stevebjj]

Other etiquette things that have occurred to me. We call our instructor by his first name outside of class, but tend to call him Coach during class. Also, during open mat, you can ask anyone for help or to roll, but during class he pairs the groups.

Also, when there are multiple groups rolling on the mat, the lower belt guys move for the upper belt guys if it comes to that.

I don't think any of our guys are into to dojo storming, but we do visit other BJJ schools to get some experience rolling with people who are not known to us.

[pauli]

Also, when there are multiple groups rolling on the mat, the lower belt guys move for the upper belt guys if it comes to that. for us, it's basically the responsiblity of whoever sees it/can react first.

i've actually got most of my classmates trained so that when they hear me say "hi, guys!" they pause to see if they're too close to anybody else.

[Shiho-Nage]

*** SNIP ***
He quite often shares stories about going to local kung fu and karate schools and challenging them all--with the predicted results. One story, he went to a YMCA or whatever for Judo, but went on the wrong night--Kung Fu night! They invited him to spar, so he did, entered, brought them all to the ground individually, and submitted them. The teacher said BJJ was crap because he could... "gouge your eyes out." So my instructor said, "Do whatever you want, go for my eyes." Apparently, my instructor took him down in the first 10 seconds and punched him from the mount in the face. When the kung fu instructor put up his hands to block, my instructor put him in an arm bar and BROKE his arm in half at the elbow (kerrrrrrunch).

Your instructor sounds like a complete ass. How insecure do you have to be to go to other martial arts schools uninvited and challenge them? And then to break the instructor's arm after you've already massaged your ego in public.

I am all for a laid back dojo, I prefer it. However, I still adhere to a code of respectful conduct. I bow in and out of the dojo; on and off the mat; after receiving instruction from my teacher or another student. I refer to my teacher as sensei and his wife (5th dan) despite her asking me to simply call her by her first name.

Other than that there's plenty of laughter, joking, exchange of ideas but all done within a safe and respectful framework.

Your instructor may be very technically skilled at his martial art but, it sounds like he has serious personality issues and a total lack of respect for his fellow man.

[JayKayD]

The closest thing to etiquette in my bjj class is warning everyone when your about to fart.

[flashlock]

Your instructor sounds like a complete ass. How insecure do you have to be to go to other martial arts schools uninvited and challenge them? And then to break the instructor's arm after you've already massaged your ego in public.

I am all for a laid back dojo, I prefer it. However, I still adhere to a code of respectful conduct. I bow in and out of the dojo; on and off the mat; after receiving instruction from my teacher or another student. I refer to my teacher as sensei and his wife (5th dan) despite her asking me to simply call her by her first name.

Other than that there's plenty of laughter, joking, exchange of ideas but all done within a safe and respectful framework.

Your instructor may be very technically skilled at his martial art but, it sounds like he has serious personality issues and a total lack of respect for his fellow man.

Well, he's a smart-ass, maybe an ass. For that particular incident, he was respectful--they invited to spar with him, then the Kung Fu sifu said BJJ was crap because of eye gouges. I think the sifu got what was coming to him for ripping on my instructors art (especially after he beat them all). Better an arm than a neck.

[fanatical]

Not to forget that the Kung fu Sifu was actively attempting to poke a persons friggin eyes out. That's a bit more serious that a torn ligament in your elbow which might take max 6 months to heal.

While I agree that taking challenges like that isn't my cup of tea either, it seems people are never happy with BJJ. This story is about a guy who is threatened with getting his eyes poked out. He defends himself but injures the other guy a bit and suddenly now he's the badguy because he didn't excert complete control over the guy who was attempting to maim him for life?

I'm supposing the lesson he tried to teach was that if you put your hands in a BJJ guys face you might walk right into an armbar. There's a lot of untold stuff in this story too, like did he tap when he was caught in the armbar? How was the challenge presented? was it in a respectful manner or was he outing him like he was really out to get him? Who knows.

If this story is true at all then it's probably the proof of one macho guy telling a story about another macho guy who got challenged by ANOTHER macho guy. So with all things considered. It's just a story :P.


Oh and the moral of the story is: Eye gouges are dumb and BJJ wins again! :D

[flashlock]

Not to forget that the Kung fu Sifu was actively attempting to poke a persons friggin eyes out. That's a bit more serious that a torn ligament in your elbow which might take max 6 months to heal.

While I agree that taking challenges like that isn't my cup of tea either, it seems people are never happy with BJJ. This story is about a guy who is threatened with getting his eyes poked out. He defends himself but injures the other guy a bit and suddenly now he's the badguy because he didn't excert complete control over the guy who was attempting to maim him for life?

I'm supposing the lesson he tried to teach was that if you put your hands in a BJJ guys face you might walk right into an armbar. There's a lot of untold stuff in this story too, like did he tap when he was caught in the armbar? How was the challenge presented? was it in a respectful manner or was he outing him like he was really out to get him? Who knows.

If this story is true at all then it's probably the proof of one macho guy telling a story about another macho guy who got challenged by ANOTHER macho guy. So with all things considered. It's just a story :P.


Oh and the moral of the story is: Eye gouges are dumb and BJJ wins again! :D

Yes, great point! And he's told me he doesn't really challenge schools anymore... it was just to promote BJJ when he started his school. That Kung Fu guy made a big mistake; he really must have been macho because if you see my instructor roll, common sense would suggest you avoid fighting him no holds barred.

[Lily]

flashlock - you're a funny guy. :D

[beknar]

For all the guys who thought the BJJ instructor was an ass, just how arrogant is a KF sifu who thinks so highly of himself, who thinks so highly of what he can do, that he doesn't take a look around at what's happening in the martial arts world, that he not only fails to adapt his art to changing times, but also subjected his students to such ignorance?

That last sin is unforgiveable.

[flashlock]

For all the guys who thought the BJJ instructor was an ass, just how arrogant is a KF sifu who thinks so highly of himself, who thinks so highly of what he can do, that he doesn't take a look around at what's happening in the martial arts world, that he not only fails to adapt his art to changing times, but also subjected his students to such ignorance?

That last sin is unforgiveable.

I hope everyone notes that YOU are a practioner of Kung Fu! Well said. Very well said.

[Shiho-Nage]

Not to forget that the Kung fu Sifu was actively attempting to poke a persons friggin eyes out. That's a bit more serious that a torn ligament in your elbow which might take max 6 months to heal.

The way I read the story was:

The teacher said BJJ was crap because he could... "gouge your eyes out." So my instructor said, "Do whatever you want, go for my eyes." Apparently, my instructor took him down in the first 10 seconds and punched him from the mount in the face. When the kung fu instructor put up his hands to block, my instructor put him in an arm bar and BROKE his arm in half at the elbow (kerrrrrrunch).

So, according to his telling of the story there was no actual attempt to eye gouge but merely him trying to deflect punches.

Also, read some recent threads to discover that BJJ people are 'completely immune' to any kind of 'dirty' or unorthodox attacking, which includes eye gouges. So the threat was never real.

Yes, the Kung Fu instructor was simply posturing when he said that 'BJJ is crap'. But then again you had a guy show up uninvited to challenge a judo class to some genital measuring contest and instead found a kung fu class.

They invite him into their class despite his confrontational reason for being there and then the "multi-national champion of NZ and Australia, who has competed in the world championships and is a brown belt" proceeds to drop and submit the entire class (which I assume consists of at least a few lower belts). That's intense!

So, for those that feel a Kung Fu instructor making a ludicrous claim out of anger in that situation is committing the greater sin than the multi-national champion that goes to other schools to submit white belts and then tell everyone at his dojo about it, you're right. That's clearly worse.

[Lily]

That last sin is unforgiveable.

You're kidding me right beknar?

[Hiroji]

For all the guys who thought the BJJ instructor was an ass, just how arrogant is a KF sifu who thinks so highly of himself, who thinks so highly of what he can do, that he doesn't take a look around at what's happening in the martial arts world, that he not only fails to adapt his art to changing times, but also subjected his students to such ignorance?

That last sin is unforgiveable.
Agreed.

Anyone who walks around bragging with their head up their hole is an ass. Its not just limited to competitive martial arts or kung fu, but to all walks of life.

[Sam]

I rarely say this because it pisses me off but wheres the proof?

Yes we all know hypothetically your sensei donned his red cape and won the day.
As far as Im concerned if its true, hes an ass, if hes lying, hes an ass.

Me I'd take this all with a large bucket of salt but thats me.

[flashlock]

The way I read the story was:



So, according to his telling of the story there was no actual attempt to eye gouge but merely him trying to deflect punches.

Also, read some recent threads to discover that BJJ people are 'completely immune' to any kind of 'dirty' or unorthodox attacking, which includes eye gouges. So the threat was never real.

Yes, the Kung Fu instructor was simply posturing when he said that 'BJJ is crap'. But then again you had a guy show up uninvited to challenge a judo class to some genital measuring contest and instead found a kung fu class.

They invite him into their class despite his confrontational reason for being there and then the "multi-national champion of NZ and Australia, who has competed in the world championships and is a brown belt" proceeds to drop and submit the entire class (which I assume consists of at least a few lower belts). That's intense!

So, for those that feel a Kung Fu instructor making a ludicrous claim out of anger in that situation is committing the greater sin than the multi-national champion that goes to other schools to submit white belts and then tell everyone at his dojo about it, you're right. That's clearly worse.

There was no attempt at an eye gouge because the kung fu guy never had a chance--he was taken down, beaten down, and arm locked.

He did not show up to challenge anyone, he showed up to roll with the Judo class. They invited him to spar; they had told him they wanted to see how their techniques would work against a BJJ guy. It started out cordial, but then the sparring went up a notch and they tried to kick him hard in the head after they told him no head shots (for both sides, as he is a 2nd dan in TKD).

When they went for his head, he went for theirs, and then, from what I recall of the story, the Kung fu instructor called BJJ crap. My teacher is friends with the Gracies, and it really pissed him off.

The students ASK for stories about BJJ that he was involved in. He has some crazy ones--he used to be a bouncer. Anyway, after prodding from us, he told us his stories; it wasn't like he was a complete bragart, but we do enjoy the tales!

[Stevebjj]

Who is your instructor?

[flashlock]

Who is your instructor?

I didn't realize he's shared this story on the net with his name on it--OK to let you guys know: http://www.groundzero.com.au/diaryview.php?diaryid=16

In his own words, you can judge for yourselves... I think it's a great story, and he didn't do a thing wrong.

[fanatical]

Man, please do send an internet greeting to you instructor in the form of a big friggin' applause for continuing and building his skills from scratch again after his amnesia. That is really an inspiration.

[JayKayD]

Snapping the guys arm does seem a little OTT but no doubt tempers were flaired and whatnot at the time.

[Stevebjj]

Sounds like a wild day. Good to hear it from the source. Thanks for posting the link.

[Agutrot-]

Why do people have a problem with a fighter beating another fighter in an agreed upon match? Even if he did start it all it's completely legit. I can't think of one thing cooler then dojo storming.

[flashlock]

Man, please do send an internet greeting to you instructor in the form of a big friggin' applause for continuing and building his skills from scratch again after his amnesia. That is really an inspiration.

Hard to believe, but true. He's something!

[flashlock]

Why do people have a problem with a fighter beating another fighter in an agreed upon match? Even if he did start it all it's completely legit. I can't think of one thing cooler then dojo storming.

Yes, he used to dojo storm a lot just to promote his school, he told me, but he said he did it to every major school in the area, no one really left. Now he says he'd just send one of his blue belts if a school starts talking BS.

It's a riot during class, as you can probably guess. I've been out sick over a week, can't wait to jump back in tomorrow!

[TKDjoe]

I rarely say this because it pisses me off but wheres the proof?

Yes we all know hypothetically your sensei donned his red cape and won the day.
As far as Im concerned if its true, hes an ass, if hes lying, hes an ass.

Me I'd take this all with a large bucket of salt but thats me.

I agree, not the kind of guy I would train with.

[forever young]

I agree, not the kind of guy I would train with.
that why u do TKD!!!!! :woo: j/k ;)

[TKDjoe]

No :D

[Stevebjj]

Actually, this is very interesting. I know we're somewhat competitive in our school. But I don't see anyone at my school acting like this. I'm not going to go so far as to say that the guy is or isn't an ass. I don't know. I wasn't there. But I've heard that this mentality is common in some areas. So, how many of the BJJ guys here would go out and "storm" another school, issuing challenges or anything like that? Can anyone here see their instructors doing this?

[1bad65]

I posted this in another thread here:

'We had a guy in Austin like that. The guy has been running a McDojo here since the 80s. Back then he taught TKD. When that fad died he began teaching Karate. Then a few years later it was Hapkido. Then he added 'grappling'. I asked my instructor how good was he on the ground. He said he attended like 2-3 BJJ seminars in the mid-90s and that was it. I posted his McDojo info on another site, and people there did let him know some legit BJJ guys were planning on coming over and checking out his grappling class. Within a few days he stopped teaching 'grappling' and removed it from his website and all other advertising he used.'

In instances such as this I think it's fine to show up and drop a challenge.

[flashlock]

You have to understand that this is Australia... different "bloke" mindset here.

[fanatical]

I'm going to do a long rant regarding this topic, the story and a story of my own to top it off, 'cause I'm bored and I might even make a point out of it.

While at first glance "dojo storming" as such can sound very uncultivated. But there's "martial arts department" in the government willing to run routine checks on styles and schools to ensure what they're doing isn't just complete nonsense.

There has always been a sense of community control in all martial arts. In earlier days of JJ in japan, dojo challenges were the way to go. People openly challenged eachother in brutal matches to see who were the best, and the loser had to close his school. The result being more students for the winner and a sort of "survival of the fittest" as far as styles go. (Remember at one time there is speculated to have been somewhere around 2000 JJ styles in Japan)

In modern days such challenges seem a little barbaric, but martial arts are after all about fighting. And people are used to hiding their critical thinking and obstinate attitudes behind the guise of law and order to avoid confrontation or proof of their scepticism. In Norway (where I live!) Full contact professional competitions are not allowed, but training full contact is! (go figure). So a sparring match to decide the skill of another martial artist if so inclined by a challenge is not as horrible as one might be led to believe.

Now, usually such "tests" are performed all the time in regular clubs. People spar and "fight" and find out where they lie on the skill-ladder of that school. Indeed this is the natural progression of a martial artist simply to gain some skill. (I hate the word martial artist, but..) And there's no evil intent behind it.

The reason why I didn't react with "he's an idiot" when the story was presented was that this guy is visiting a place, sparring with them, feeling challenged in several rounds way above what was agreed upon in regards to the regular rules of their sparring and answering back. Upon protecting himself he recieves another challenge, this time, should he lose he is threatened with being blinded for life and losing his eyes in a full contact match should the opposing Sifu beat him.

Why then don't I think it's overkill to pop his elbow? Because I've had my elbow popped myself on several occasions. From being too slow to tap out for instance (voluntarily or simply by accident) And I can't say I hold a grudge against the people who tore it. I trained through the recovery and while it's painful to have a messed up arm and you can't spar as hard as you'd want to.. It's not the end of the world. You're not crippled for life if you pop your elbow. You're injured for a while but it's not a huge deal.

Freaking out at a small injury like a popped elbow in a sparring match is typical of people who have never grappled. I know, it seems brutal to hear a pop in the elbow but I doubt the Sifu in question has any trouble with his elbow to this day.

Lastly (this is turning out to be a long one) I've been "challenged" myself in a much less safe environment than a dojo. When I first started JJ, I was hanging out with some friends on the town (woooo!) and some of them was getting a bit loud concerning my training and I tried to shush them down. I've never liked too much attention. But it was too late and some random dude I don't know stepped up and asked the typical "well what do you do if..." questions. After some back and forth with me attempting to dodge the question he took matters into his own hands.

And I'll never forget the irony of this. Did a front bearhug... that's right. You know that crazy stuff you think people never do in a fight or self defense situation or anything? I did a classic JJ defense, blocked his hips and sunk my hips walking back and around and was about to step in for a hip throw when he let go. And in one split second I thought "phew he's only kidding" ....then he jammed his fingers in my eyes.. My natural reflex was now to just shut my eyes as tight as I could and he couldn't do any damage. From there I should perhaps have gone in and finished the throw, but the guy was larger than me by a bit more than I liked and hip throws aren't my forté. So instead I started reaching down for a leg thinking I might get a double or single. I get one leg and start lifting and driving and attempting to hook his other leg with my foot when suddenly lots of people start swarming in on both sides pulling us apart.

And thank heavens for that. In retrospect I suppose I defended myself ok. But right after that he was very defensive and avoided me, trying to talk nice and being sorry he freaked out. And then he slipped in a comment that if we were somewhere else it would be better to test this. Now, this is the point I'm leading up to. I'm a small guy. Very thin, not particularily athletic, always been. I'm also quite shy and not a very aggressive guy and I usually have to get nagged on by instructors to push the offense if needed. But right there and then I was ready. I said something along the lines of "well I'm ready when you are" and I really was. I was ready to go again. It never happened and he was full of hot air I suppose and just couldn't face the fact that he had been mildly thwarted by a little shrimp.

But THIS is the point. I never thought I would say or do something that stupid, but experience has taught me that when someone is provoking me strongly enough, I just might take that challenge. And for the guy in the story, I can't say I blame him. And finally, a popped elbow is NOT that big a deal.

Wow this was a long one. Sorry 'bout that.

[TKDjoe]

My problem with the whole thing isn't the challenge but, the Broken arm, if the guy really knows his stuff, and has some class he would just have held the fellow in the arm bar(for a long time) until he submitted. That would have proven the point much better. The broken arm situation could easily end up in a serioust lawsuit. You have to learn control, Here where I'm at, in any kind of confrontation, the second you have the advantage, then YOU become the aggressor, what you do from that point is what could determine what the law does afterwards. Now, I know this wasn't a fight, it was a challenge, but control should still be considered.

[PASmith]

Someone threathens to eye gouge you it's a fight no matter what the other circumstances.

[Shiho-Nage]

But according to all of the other threads I've read eye gouges are impossible to pull off. When they are executed they are completely ineffective.

So, how does the simple declaration that a style is susceptible to eye gouges warrant a broken elbow?

It is amazing to me that people think this bjj teacher is anything other than a complete jackass.

Does he have any tales of storming a kendo/iaido dojo?

[Stevebjj]

But according to all of the other threads I've read eye gouges are impossible to pull off. When they are executed they are completely ineffective.

So, how does the simple declaration that a style is susceptible to eye gouges warrant a broken elbow?

It is amazing to me that people think this bjj teacher is anything other than a complete jackass.

Does he have any tales of storming a kendo/iaido dojo?I'm leaning this way myself. First, I'm presuming that a BJJ brown belt is going to easily defeat a Kung Fu Black Belt who has not done any ground training. Call me a nutrider, but I'm convinced that BJJ only is superior to Kung Fu only. Crosstraining changes things.

I'm also presuming as a result that this brown belt was never really at any genuine physical risk, unless the entire school decided to gang up on him.

As a brown belt in BJJ, another presumption is that he has done armbars often enough to know how much tension is necessary to pop an arm.

So, even if this kung fu guy didn't tap when he should have, having an armbar locked in means that the brown belt was in complete control of the situation. He could have transitioned to another submission, or maybe he could have just 'suggested' that the sifu tap before his arm pops.

I don't think I'm making a big deal out of this, at least I don't mean to. I wasn't there, and so I'm willing to accept that I don't know the complete story. That said, one of the things I like about BJJ in general and the guys I train with specifically, is that there's a quiet confidence about the entire group. I don't have any issues with sparring at another school or anything like that. Where I start to raise an eyebrow is when BJJ guys are injuring other people, and where I really start to wonder is when they're proud of it.

Honestly, popping the sifu's arm is like picking on the little kid, and seems somewhat like bully behavior to me.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of time, so I'm writing this pretty fast. Hopefully it makes some sense. :)

[Yohan]

Hi, all--

I've recently joined a BJJ club. It's my first and only experience in an actual BJJ/ Gracie JJ club (or any jj for that matter). I really find the relaxed nature of the classes refreshing, and was wondering if this is the norm in BJJ clubs.

The instructor is a multi-national champion of NZ and Australia, and has competed in the world championships (he's a brown belt). He cracks me up. For example, he needed to say something, so he pulled out this whistle and blew it. He started talking, then some students kept chatting, so he said, "Shut the hell up, I didn't spend three dollars on this lovely whistle for nothing."

During class, there's usually recent UFC or BJJ matches playing on the wall-mounted TV, with the volume up.

He quite often shares stories about going to local kung fu and karate schools and challenging them all--with the predicted results. One story, he went to a YMCA or whatever for Judo, but went on the wrong night--Kung Fu night! They invited him to spar, so he did, entered, brought them all to the ground individually, and submitted them. The teacher said BJJ was crap because he could... "gouge your eyes out." So my instructor said, "Do whatever you want, go for my eyes." Apparently, my instructor took him down in the first 10 seconds and punched him from the mount in the face. When the kung fu instructor put up his hands to block, my instructor put him in an arm bar and BROKE his arm in half at the elbow (kerrrrrrunch). After, in the locker room, the whole class rushed my teacher--who thought he was now in trouble for beating their sifu. Luckily, they just wanted to learn where they could take BJJ! The kung fu school went under soon after.

There's a lot of mach talk, and my instructor will just bluntly say that, yes he's biased, but BJJ is the best (and he's got a 2nd dan in TKD--gave it up after a BJJ white belt destroyed him).

I personally enjoy this kind of banter. I think it's related to the macho Brazilian culture? I'm sure it's not for everyone, but is this kind of thing common, or is my teacher just a character? It's just so different from the somber, serious dojos I'm used to, it kind of blows my mind. I much prefer these relaxed classes. Are they the norm?

Thanks...

That's very nice . . . what part of the post is about etiquette again?

[flashlock]

That's very nice . . . what part of the post is about etiquette again?

The swearing, and the "disrespect" toward other arts. I've never encountered that before.

[Yohan]

Well, I'm glad you like it. I'm sure you fit right in.

The BJJ instruction I received was at a local MMA school. My instructor wasn't a champion of anything, I beleive he is a purple in Machado BJJ, and the 2nd head instructor had a gold medal in Judo and plenty of schooling in BJJ. The school was really excellent. Anyways . . .

It was actually a really interesting mix of traditional teaching and sports training. When classes started, there was no talking while he was talking unless the instructor asked a question or queued for a response. Overall, was real laid back. He would curse in class if there were no women or children present, but I think there was one female student he would curse around. We listened to good music. He went to the bar with some of the students. We did alot of compliant and semi-compliant drilling early in the class, and would spend the last 15-30 minutes or so rolling.

EDIT: OH YEAH one other thing, both of the head instructors would bow whent they walked in the door, alingwith the top students in the class. They all bowed, and the instructor would get after you if came close to the mats with your shoes on.

Overall, I think he was pretty respectful of other arts.

[flashlock]

Well, I'm glad you like it. I'm sure you fit right in.

The BJJ instruction I received was at a local MMA school. My instructor wasn't a champion of anything, I beleive he is a purple in Machado BJJ, and the 2nd head instructor had a gold medal in Judo and plenty of schooling in BJJ. The school was really excellent. Anyways . . .

It was actually a really interesting mix of traditional teaching and sports training. When classes started, there was no talking while he was talking unless the instructor asked a question or queued for a response. Overall, was real laid back. He would curse in class if there were no women or children present, but I think there was one female student he would curse around. We listened to good music. He went to the bar with some of the students. We did alot of compliant and semi-compliant drilling early in the class, and would spend the last 15-30 minutes or so rolling.

EDIT: OH YEAH one other thing, both of the head instructors would bow whent they walked in the door, alingwith the top students in the class. They all bowed, and the instructor would get after you if came close to the mats with your shoes on.

Overall, I think he was pretty respectful of other arts.

He's strict about the shoes on the mat thing to. But when I asked if I needed to bow at the door, he said, "No. This is Brazilian, not Japanese." :)

[flashlock]

I'm leaning this way myself. First, I'm presuming that a BJJ brown belt is going to easily defeat a Kung Fu Black Belt who has not done any ground training. Call me a nutrider, but I'm convinced that BJJ only is superior to Kung Fu only. Crosstraining changes things.

I'm also presuming as a result that this brown belt was never really at any genuine physical risk, unless the entire school decided to gang up on him.

As a brown belt in BJJ, another presumption is that he has done armbars often enough to know how much tension is necessary to pop an arm.

So, even if this kung fu guy didn't tap when he should have, having an armbar locked in means that the brown belt was in complete control of the situation. He could have transitioned to another submission, or maybe he could have just 'suggested' that the sifu tap before his arm pops.

I don't think I'm making a big deal out of this, at least I don't mean to. I wasn't there, and so I'm willing to accept that I don't know the complete story. That said, one of the things I like about BJJ in general and the guys I train with specifically, is that there's a quiet confidence about the entire group. I don't have any issues with sparring at another school or anything like that. Where I start to raise an eyebrow is when BJJ guys are injuring other people, and where I really start to wonder is when they're proud of it.

Honestly, popping the sifu's arm is like picking on the little kid, and seems somewhat like bully behavior to me.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of time, so I'm writing this pretty fast. Hopefully it makes some sense. :)

So boo-hoo for the Kung Fu guy against the big bully BJJ guy? I mean, he only insulted my teachers art and agreed to eye gouges... what a prince. The Kung Fu sifu got hurt, but he deserved what he got, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten it!

[Stevebjj]

So boo-hoo for the Kung Fu guy against the big bully BJJ guy? I mean, he only insulted my teachers art and agreed to eye gouges... what a prince. The Kung Fu sifu got hurt, but he deserved what he got, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten it!Dude. Really. It's not a movie. Please don't say anything about your master's honor. I'd have to vomit.

As for the eye gouges, I'm of the firm belief that the threat of the super deadly eye gouge from a kung fu guy who has never crosstrained in a grappling art is an empty threat... about as realistic as if the sifu "threatened" to armbar him. Not very likely.

So, from what you've posted, it sounds like he essentially took out someone who was functionally helpless to stop him. Again. I wasn't there, so I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure there was other stuff going on.

Ultimately, it's all good. If you like where you train and the atmosphere and culture of the school suits you, more power to you. Have fun. Keep training.

[Atharel]

But according to all of the other threads I've read eye gouges are impossible to pull off. When they are executed they are completely ineffective.

So, how does the simple declaration that a style is susceptible to eye gouges warrant a broken elbow?

It is amazing to me that people think this bjj teacher is anything other than a complete jackass.

Does he have any tales of storming a kendo/iaido dojo?

Who's said they're impossible? I remember a lot of threads on how they're incredibly low percentage, especially from an inferior grappling position, and how they're not nearly as effective as people claim they are (Yuki Nakai...) Really, let it go. Eye gouges are just the adult version of pinching someone on the playground.

A false claim that a style is susceptible to eye gouges was in this case just part of a lot of provocation if you re-read the story. Even so, I personally think a ballistic armbar is too far - that's what chokes are for, if he passes out no harm done and it gets the same point across.

As to the last bit, I know of some JKD/Kali/BJJ people that have done very well in mixed matches against kendo - but that's not the point at all. Do you expect them to storm the Marine marksmanship camps as well? Again, you're missing the point.

[flashlock]

Who's said they're impossible? I remember a lot of threads on how they're incredibly low percentage, especially from an inferior grappling position, and how they're not nearly as effective as people claim they are (Yuki Nakai...) Really, let it go. Eye gouges are just the adult version of pinching someone on the playground.

A false claim that a style is susceptible to eye gouges was in this case just part of a lot of provocation if you re-read the story. Even so, I personally think a ballistic armbar is too far - that's what chokes are for, if he passes out no harm done and it gets the same point across.

As to the last bit, I know of some JKD/Kali/BJJ people that have done very well in mixed matches against kendo - but that's not the point at all. Do you expect them to storm the Marine marksmanship camps as well? Again, you're missing the point.

I agree. Eye gouges as some kind of anti-grappling "fix" is just lazy. I like going for the eye jab (JKD) --not to rip someone's eyes out, but because you don't even have to make contact. Your body has automatic reactions, and when something flies toward your eyes, you close them, and jerk your head away (similiar to a groin protection reaction). To me, that is using the cocept of the eye gouge in a broader, more stratigic sense: as distraction. Yeah, go for an eye gouge, and best of luck, but they really aren't that effective, not enough to make up for a lack of grappling skills anyway.

I wasn't there at the Kung Fu class, I wasn't fighting, and I doubt I would have broken the guys arm, but getting to know my coach, he has a good heart, he's passionate about BJJ, but when it's "on"... it's really on.

[1bad65]

Another thing that the eye-gouge proponents miss is that in grappling you are not as dependant on sight as in stand up. I know guys who close their eyes at times, and I will do it at times when I'm a little tired. Also, an experienced grappler is using his sense of touch alot more than sight alot of the time anyway.

[Shiho-Nage]

Who's said they're impossible? I remember a lot of threads on how they're incredibly low percentage, especially from an inferior grappling position, and how they're not nearly as effective as people claim they are (Yuki Nakai...) Really, let it go. Eye gouges are just the adult version of pinching someone on the playground.

Yeah, it was more of a nod and prod to those other threads and those so adamant about how completely ineffective they are. You're the only one that bit, thanks.

As for pinching, that too can be used to good effect to create an opening.

[Stevebjj]

Yeah, it was more of a nod and prod to those other threads and those so adamant about how completely ineffective they are. You're the only one that bit, thanks.

As for pinching, that too can be used to good effect to create an opening.Didn't I say eye gouges are inneffective? I still think it's true. Now I know that no one reads my posts! I'm crushed! :cry: :)

[Atharel]

Yeah, it was more of a nod and prod to those other threads and those so adamant about how completely ineffective they are. You're the only one that bit, thanks.

As for pinching, that too can be used to good effect to create an opening.

I encourage you to try pinching or eye gouging against a 6 month white belt or above. Or an average wrestler, of which there are hundreds of thousands roaming the deadly streets of the US.

And I reacted because you were distorting the history of the threads. I don't like misinformation.

1bad65 - I do that a lot as well, especially when on top. Gets me to focus more on balance and weight distribution and less on target hunting for a sub.

[1bad65]

Can't believe I forgot to mention this concerning lack of vision. Look up William Vandry. He is a Machado Black Belt here in Austin (however I train at a different school). He is LEGALLY blind from a gunshot wound to the head. He suffered that BEFORE he was awarded his Black Belt. He is/was an active and successful competitor even after he received his wound.

[EternalRage]

I'm leaning this way myself. First, I'm presuming that a BJJ brown belt is going to easily defeat a Kung Fu Black Belt who has not done any ground training. Call me a nutrider, but I'm convinced that BJJ only is superior to Kung Fu only. Crosstraining changes things.
Says in the website that this was when he first started BJJ.

They asked me what style I did and when I told them Gracie BJJ they wanted me to train with them to see if they could stop BJJ techniques. Firstly they wanted to start standing and asked if I was ok with striking , I said I had an extensice striking background so it ws on! After a few of his high grades went a bit far I decided not to play nice so kicked a few in the head and dropped them like flies..they were not happy.

They then asked if we could just ground fight without striking and after I had choked and armlocked the whole club a few times the head instructor after waking up challenged me to a no rules fight right then. Now, there were mums turning up to pick up kids and stuff and the whole club made a big circle around the inside of the dojo so I guess it was on.
Seemed like it was just a matter of escalation, not initiated by the BJJ instructor. And also seems like the rules were very clearly stated each time they were changed. I think the BJJ instructor didn't do a thing wrong - the Kung Fu instructor should have shown some humility and admit that his system has limited ground defense or grappling, and advised his students to cross train if they were interested. Instead he goes ape-sh*t. Got what was comin to him.

[Agutrot-]

Can't believe I forgot to mention this concerning lack of vision. Look up William Vandry. He is a Machado Black Belt here in Austin (however I train at a different school). He is LEGALLY blind from a gunshot wound to the head. He suffered that BEFORE he was awarded his Black Belt. He is/was an active and successful competitor even after he received his wound.

Maybe they just tell him it's a black belt.

[Oversoul]

Maybe they just tell him it's a black belt.

Good one.

[1bad65]

Maybe they just tell him it's a black belt.


That's a pretty low class thing to say.