My Program: Please Critique

[Socrastein]

I'm going to be starting on a new program that I just put together soon. It's a 4 week cycle, I tried to put as much variety into it as I could, at least regarding the larger compound movements. I'm starting with a hypertrophy volume, then after deloading in the 4th week I'm going to start again with maximal strength volume. Then I'll judge how everything is going and how well I'm recovering and I'll likely up the frequency to having both a squat variation and a deadlift variation with every workout.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could take the time to read it and let me know what you think is good and bad about it. If you have any questions at all, like why I did something, or what a certain exercise is, just let me know.

I'm going to be performing this program on a slight caloric deficit, though I will be getting 200g of protein every day (I weigh about 200lbs). I'm going with a 30/40/30 macronutrient split.

I'm not aiming for primarily for hypertrophy; I'm aiming to increase my absolute strength, flexibility, coordination, anaerobic endurance, capacity to recover, and overall athleticism. Let me know what you think.

[Banpen Fugyo]

I smell overtraining.

[Socrastein]

A 3 day lifting split with active recovery between my sessions, soft tissue work and stretching every week, and only 1 session devoted to energy systems work. How is that overtraining? If you think this is too much, perhaps you aren't training enough.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Do you not fit your MA into your schedule?

[Socrastein]

Tuesdays and Thursdays I have Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I've been doing that long enough that I recover easily.

[flaming]

LOL I have 6 exercises total.

[blessed_samurai]

Why are you targeting the serratus specifically?
How are you doing sets/reps with the farmers walks or are you doing for time?
Are you having a problem with weak wrists?
Why the extra hip ab/aduction work?

I think moving from the work on Sunday to hitting the gym again on Monday may not allow for adequate recovery. Car pushing, db swings, etc is still taxing on the body. You might look at combining what you have on Sunday as finishers into your other workout days.

You might have a look at the Renaissance training program over at T-nation. Who wrote it escapes my mind...prob Staley.

Also, you might search on here for my Tier Training program thread I started a few months back.

[Socrastein]

Blessed Samurai

Thank you for taking the time to look at my program and raise some issues/questions about it.

Regarding my serratus muscles, I'll quote Eric Cressey, since his articles on muscle balance and shoulder health are on of the reasons I'm including scap pushups and the like.

"The serratus anterior is a small muscle, but it's of profound importance when it comes to scapulohumeral rhythm and, in turn, shoulder health...I could literally give a day-long seminar on all the different pathologies in which serratus anterior dysfunction is involved in some way. So, why not take care of it ahead of time?"

As of right now, I don't suffer from any shoulder problems, and I'm trying to make sure that I never do in the future.

I actually perform farmer's walks for 2 sets of 30 sec., I'm sorry that I didn't specifically note that in my program. It was one of those things that I knew in my head, but obviously can't expect other people to somehow know.

I don't think I have a problem with weak wrists. I grapple, rock climb, and train my grip extensively, all of which have lent to fairly strong wrists and hands.

I included the extra hip ab/aduction work because 1) Chad Waterbury told me to (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=744531744B2AB7B480290E4CCC C2700A.hydra?id=1480667) and 2) Eric Cressey scared me with the dangers of underdeveloped ab/adductors and groin strains and said "Training the adductors can make you a better squatter, deadlifter, and sprinter; reduce the likelihood of injury; and give you better-looking wheels." in this article. (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459552)

I'm assuming you said I was doing "extra" work referring to the plate pushes, band walks, etc. on top of unilateral leg work, correct? Honestly, the biggest reason I did so was because Waterbury said to :)

And yes, I too am a bit concerned with the prospect of doing heavy circuit work the day before another gym session. There just aren't enough days in the week I tell ya! If it wasn't for the fact that my MT/BJJ classes were always on Tue/Thur I would opt for an 8 day cycle.

I have a very clean diet, strong anaerobic endurance, good water intake, proper pre/post-workout nutrition, and with my work schedule I'm able to easily get 8+ hours of sleep every night, excluding only Saturdays, when I have to get up earlier than normal, but that's why that's my rest day. I'll see how I hold up the first couple weeks, and if the Sunday circuits leave me too fried to workout on Monday, then I'll probably split the exercises up among my workout days and have to ditch the car pushing. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

[TheMachine]

Could be simplified to make it even better....

Its way too complicated..

[Socrastein]

I'm not quite sure what's complicated about it, and why that's a bad thing. I do the same movements with almost every excercise, going between squat/deadlift variations and horizontal/vertical planes with pressing and pulling. I change the exercises a lot, but that's to get a broad range of stimuli and avoid quick adaptation. If I did the same squat, deadlift, press, and pull with every workout, I wouldn't see good progress for very long.

[Lily]

I guess the test is for you to see if you can do the 4 week cycle (7 days).

[cxw]

I'm not quite sure what's complicated about it, and why that's a bad thing...I change the exercises a lot, but that's to get a broad range of stimuli and avoid quick adaptation...

You don't want adaptation! Maybe you want to avoid stagnation?

You want progression. Look for a program that has inbuilt weight increases (this means starting the program with weights less than what you could lift). Some programs are templates which allow the lifter to choose their excercises, which is really good if you're looking to improve certain things. HST and 5*5 are a couple of programs that most people seem to do well on (there's others as well).

Also, Banpen Fugyo mentioned overtaining and you said you didn't think it was. Lifting is not about doing what you can, it's about doing what is optimal for the person given their other commitments (work, MA training, fitness work etc). Ian King (a very successful coach) considers that most sessions should involve at most a total 12 sets (excluding warm ups).

Also the more work you do, the more tired you'll be before you get to the last excercises. Lets stay you do 10 excercises, each 4 sets of 8 reps. By the time you get to your last excercise (lets say BB military press) you've already done 32 sets/256 reps. You'd be really tired and probably couldn't equal a BP on the BB military press, let alone set one.

You seem to have put in lots of excercises for injury prevention. Although injury prevention is a good idea, you have to do this wisely. The shoulders, wrists, hamstrings, back, ankles, knees etc could all get injured, but you shouldn't do injury prevention excercises for all these areas.

I really think simplification is needed.

The idea to spend a session a week on soft tissue work and stretching is a very good idea. I really need to be doing this myself.

[Socrastein]

I'm really trying to prevent muscle imbalances, which can lead to injury. I think you should try to have balance between all antagonistic muscle groups, and it's not that hard to do as long as you know which exercises to pair off.

[Lily]

Socrastein - have you started the cycle?

[blessed_samurai]

I think you'll be fine if you stick with your basics. I think you're right though to add in some RC work 2-3 times a week=face pulls, ext rotations, scapular protractions, scap push ups, etc

I think if you're sticking with your compounds you're not going to get a lot of imbalances so long as horizontal vs vertical vs pushing vs pulling is all ironed out. However, if you just have the extra time on your hands, then go for the serratus and ad/abduction stuff.

[TheMachine]

I think you'll be fine if you stick with your basics. I think you're right though to add in some RC work 2-3 times a week=face pulls, ext rotations, scapular protractions, scap push ups, etc

I think if you're sticking with your compounds you're not going to get a lot of imbalances so long as horizontal vs vertical vs pushing vs pulling is all ironed out. However, if you just have the extra time on your hands, then go for the serratus and ad/abduction stuff.


Absolutely correct...
to the OP: keep it simple, you are overanalyzing things.....
As long as you are doing the heavy basic compound movements, you won't develop any imbalances, and if ever there are any, a simple way to correct that is by adjusting your form on some exercises or substituting in other exercises

[Socrastein]

Lily:

I haven't started on it yet, I plan to start this Monday. I wanted to get some feedback before I got into it.

The Machine:

The human body is not a simple thing. If you oversimplify you're bound to overlook something very important. I know a lot of guys with very simple programs - so simple they overlooked many key muscles, like the serratus anterior, and as a result developed chronic shoulder problems and bad imbalances. If you've been in the lifting game for very long, I'm sure you've met many people with shoulder problems and posture deficiencies. I doubt they got that way by "overanalyzing" all the ways to create a balanced and structurally sound body.

[g-bells]

not trying to insult you here but you seem to have all the answers to everyone's suggestions, then why are you asking for advice? it's basic, say for shoulders: work all three heads of the shoulder, minimizing the chance for injury. anywhoo good luck to you

[Socrastein]

Simple G-bells: there's good advice, and there's bad advice. I'm looking for the former. And I'm sorry, it's not that basic - working all three heads of the shoulder isn't enough to prevent imbalances.

[koto_ryu]

I think you'll be fine if you stick with your basics. I think you're right though to add in some RC work 2-3 times a week=face pulls, ext rotations, scapular protractions, scap push ups, etc

I think if you're sticking with your compounds you're not going to get a lot of imbalances so long as horizontal vs vertical vs pushing vs pulling is all ironed out. However, if you just have the extra time on your hands, then go for the serratus and ad/abduction stuff.

Well said.

How long have you actually been weight training, Socrastein? And what are your goals out of this routine?

[cxw]

...I know a lot of guys with very simple programs - so simple they overlooked many key muscles, like the serratus anterior, and as a result developed chronic shoulder problems and bad imbalances...

And those people should look to address these.

[Socrastein]

Koto_ryu

I've only been consistently training for the past 6 months. I've been training off and on for the past 4 years.

My goals are as I said in the OP:

I'm aiming to increase my absolute strength, flexibility, coordination, anaerobic endurance, capacity to recover, and overall athleticism.

[koto_ryu]

Koto_ryu

I've only been consistently training for the past 6 months. I've been training off and on for the past 4 years.

My goals are as I said in the OP:

I'm aiming to increase my absolute strength, flexibility, coordination, anaerobic endurance, capacity to recover, and overall athleticism.

You have quite a long time then before you need to worry about any muscular imbalances you might have, if any. Some of us have been training for years on nothing but the basics and have done extremely well. While your program sounds good on paper, I'm willing to bet you won't see the types of gains you hope for. While many of those exercises will be similar in nature, your gains in absolute strength will be minimal as there's TOO much variety. Variety is good, it keeps you interested, but too much can be a bad thing. Also, if you're doing these to supplement your MA training, you might want more MA-specific workouts involved, otherwise you'll just be training as an unspecialized athlete.

[Socrastein]

While many of those exercises will be similar in nature, your gains in absolute strength will be minimal as there's TOO much variety.

Could you please explain this statement to me? Because I've never heard such a thing. In fact, I've only ever heard the exact opposite. As I mentioned earlier, Chad Waterbury inpsired my program to a good degree, and he repeatedly suggests that lifters not repeat any large compound movements in one week to stave off adaptation and maximize gains. By cycling between unilateral and bilateral movements, dumbell and barbell exercises, full ROM and partial ROM variations, etc. I was under the impression I would be promoting great increases in strength, coordination, and neural efficiency, as well as preventing adapation, imbalance, and weak stabalizers.

Also, if you're doing these to supplement your MA training, you might want more MA-specific workouts involved, otherwise you'll just be training as an unspecialized athlete.

I've been training in a similiar manner for the past 6 months, just not with any coherent structure. The carryover to my MA, particularly my grappling, has been enormous. By working my way up to a double body weight deadlift, I found it easier to toss people around on the mats. With lots of supportive grip training like deadlifts with no wrist straps, farmer's walks, cleans, etc. I don't have to worry about people easily slipping out of my holds. Heavy squats and romanian deadlifts have given me the explosive power necessary to reverse mount and guard positions on guys that weigh 50 lbs more than me.

So far, my training has been very supplemental; I'm not sure how this new program will fail to be. Perhaps you could explain further?

You have quite a long time then before you need to worry about any muscular imbalances you might have, if any. Some of us have been training for years on nothing but the basics and have done extremely well.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree, but at this point I'm becoming bored of reemphasizing the importance of structural balance and the prevalance of imbalances among the majority of lifters.

[g-bells]

Simple G-bells: there's good advice, and there's bad advice. I'm looking for the former. And I'm sorry, it's not that basic - working all three heads of the shoulder isn't enough to prevent imbalances.

what other areas of the shoulder can you work?
i've been lifting for 20+ yrs and have never had a seriuos shoulder injury, thats including all the wear and tear from sports.
work the basics and build a strong foundation ,then compliment your basic exercises with supplemental ones to round out your training

[Socrastein]

what other areas of the shoulder can you work?

I'm afraid you've, ironically, fallen victim to the very thing I've been speaking against thus far: oversimplification.

The "three heads" of the shoulder are nothing more than a simplification that really misses a large part of the picture and ignores the complex interplay between various muscles and connective tissues around the shoulder area.

Let me quote Eric Cressey from this article (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=280rotator2) on training the rotator cuff and addressing structural balance in the shoulder joint.

The term "shoulder" is actually best used to describe a complex or region which consists of roughly twenty muscles and five articulations (1). Nonetheless, the term "shoulder joint" is often used to refer to the glenohumeral joint, the articulation between the humerus (upper arm) and glenoid fossa (cavity) of the scapula. Although the remaining four articulations all play integral roles in upper body motion, the glenohumeral joint is of foremost importance to our discussion.

i've been lifting for 20+ yrs and have never had a seriuos shoulder injury, thats including all the wear and tear from sports.

Then I'd say you've been very lucky, or you're choosing your words delicately and have had some minor shoulder injuries, though nothing "serious", or you're just plain lying :p

Nevertheless, with such a simplistic view on training your shoulders, even if you've not injured yourself yet, I'd bet good money you've developed some nasty imbalances and impingements over the past 20+ years that are a countdown to future injury.

[g-bells]

I'm afraid you've, ironically, fallen victim to the very thing I've been speaking against thus far: oversimplification.

The "three heads" of the shoulder are nothing more than a simplification that really misses a large part of the picture and ignores the complex interplay between various muscles and connective tissues around the shoulder area.

Let me quote Eric Cressey from this article (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=280rotator2) on training the rotator cuff and addressing structural balance in the shoulder joint.

The term "shoulder" is actually best used to describe a complex or region which consists of roughly twenty muscles and five articulations (1). Nonetheless, the term "shoulder joint" is often used to refer to the glenohumeral joint, the articulation between the humerus (upper arm) and glenoid fossa (cavity) of the scapula. Although the remaining four articulations all play integral roles in upper body motion, the glenohumeral joint is of foremost importance to our discussion.


Then I'd say you've been very lucky, or you're choosing your words delicately and have had some minor shoulder injuries, though nothing "serious", or you're just plain lying :p

Nevertheless, with such a simplistic view on training your shoulders, even if you've not injured yourself yet, I'd bet good money you've developed some nasty imbalances and impingements over the past 20+ years that are a countdown to future injury.

man all your info comes from reading joe blow's this and johnny bads**'s that.
the shoulder is one muscle with three heads, all the other stuff you mentioned is worked when an injury has occurred. you can do those exercises till hell freezes over and you won't gain size, mass, or power because you'll be using such a light weight.

i have hurt my shoulder before, seperated it playing football in school, the PT was astonished at the fact that i had/have been lifting for so long and have NEVER had a SERIOUS injury from weight training and he said keep doing what your doing cause you don't have the tall tell signs of a weight lifter.are you going to argue with a PT with joe blow's article.

i understand that you want to get all the knowledge you can in order to achieve your goals and that is comendable but you have to build a base from which you can build on.

i'll take your money if ou really want to lose it, cause what i'm doing has'nt caused any injuries yet, so who are you to say that it's just a matter of time

[NaughtyKnight]

Bit over complicated in my opinion.

Pullups
Dips
Miltary Press
Squat
Deadlift
Ab work
Farmers walk.

All you need really. You can spice it up later if you want, but its nice to start a cycle with big basic exercises you can add weight to consistently.

All the shoulder work is a waste of time. Military Press hits your shoulders perfectly. Incline shrugs are good aswell.

[TheMachine]

All I can say is this... You've been working out for what? 6 months? yes you may have had inspiration from these coaches who are well respected but take into consideration they have had many years of experience in training directly or training others, so programs they make have a rhyme and reson and one cannot just parrot what they say since it may not be applicable to you...

Knowing a bunch of theory is different from actually spending your time training and I have had my fair share of training experience on myself and others who has stuck to the compund basic exercises and I haven't seen any imbalanc that is a disaster waiting to happen, if any, a minor tweak in form or exercise subtitution was al that was needed to correct any imbalance there was.

Soonce again keep it simple

[Socrastein]

the shoulder is one muscle with three heads, all the other stuff you mentioned is worked when an injury has occurred.

No, it's not. That's simply false. If you would have actually read the article I linked, you'd understand why it's important to work those various muscles before an injury occurs so that hopefully you never have to incur one. Take a look at Wikipedia's article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder#Major_muscles) on the shoulder. Scroll down to where it lists the "major muscles", and read all about the different muscles of the shoulder joint, where they attach, and what they do.

The shoulder and it's musculature is often simply called the "delts". Obviously this is a very generalized reference.

Just as the external obliques, the internal obliques, the transversus abdominis, rectus abdominis, the pyramidalis muscle and others are all commonly referred to as the "abs". People simplify the whole general region because obviously not everyone is going to bother memorizing their entire musculoskeletal anatomy.

you can do those exercises till hell freezes over and you won't gain size, mass, or power because you'll be using such a light weight.

I can't figure out if you're actually serious or not. From the article, which you really should do yourself a favor and read:

Why Train the Rotator Cuff?

Most of you have probably never heard of these muscles before, so it's likely you're wondering why you should bother training them. Here's why:

Strength:...Weak external rotators of the humerus are limiting factors to development of internal rotator size and strength, as the body won't allow progress to continue in the presence of an imbalance which could lead to injury. We all know the pecs, lats, and delts have outstanding growth potential, but few recognize that this potential can't be fully realized unless the external rotators are up to par.

It's not uncommon to see an individual break through a bench, row, pull-up, or Olympic lift sticking point just by incorporating direct external rotator training. Likewise, a little attention to supraspinatus training can yield equally favorable results in overhead pressing and lateral raise strength.

Size: In addition to all the indirect ways that direct rotator cuff training can lead to size, let's not forget the four muscles of rotator cuff themselves are capable of hypertrophy!

Unfortunately, hypertrophy in the subscapularis and supraspinatus is unlikely to be noticeable due to their positions behind the rib cage and deep to the upper trap, respectively. Growth of the infraspinatus and teres minor, on the other hand, will certainly further one's back development by enhancing the "V-frame."

When an individual is quite lean and possesses good external rotator development, the separations between the posterior deltoid, infraspinatus, teres minor, teres major, and lats are readily apparent and quite impressive, especially during the back-double biceps pose.

i have hurt my shoulder before, seperated it playing football in school, the PT was astonished at the fact that i had/have been lifting for so long and have NEVER had a SERIOUS injury from weight training and he said keep doing what your doing cause you don't have the tall tell signs of a weight lifter.are you going to argue with a PT with joe blow's article.

Yes, of course I am - that's not even a contest.

Eric Cressey, a NSCA Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, is currently pursuing his Master's degree in Exercise Science through the University of Connecticut's Department of Kinesiology. He graduated from the University of New England with a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management. Eric has worked to help others achieve their goals in clinical (cardiac and pulmonary rehabilitation), general fitness, and athletic performance settings.

He's one of the most prominant authors for T-Nation, I find it hilarious you refer to him as Joe Blow :rolleyes:

i'll take your money if ou really want to lose it, cause what i'm doing has'nt caused any injuries yet, so who are you to say that it's just a matter of time

Yeah, and plenty of people who smoke haven't gotten lung cancer. I also know a lot of people who have driven drunk without actually hitting anything/anyone. There's also people who are obese but haven't yet had a heart attack.

You're lucky, nothing more. I'm glad you haven't hurt yourself yet, but that doesn't change the fact that you could be training better and safer. If you would stop running your mouth for 5 seconds, long enough to actually read some of the material I've provided, you could make some changes to your own personal program that would undoubtedly help you in size, strength, stablization, and of course safety. Or you can keep telling me that your "basics" are flawless and convince yourself that lucky somehow means intelligent.

Pullups
Dips
Miltary Press
Squat
Deadlift
Ab work
Farmers walk.

All you need really. You can spice it up later if you want, but its nice to start a cycle with big basic exercises you can add weight to consistently.

All the shoulder work is a waste of time. Military Press hits your shoulders perfectly. Incline shrugs are good aswell.

For the past 6 months my program has been back squats, orthodox deadlifts, cleans, dips, pullups, chinups, flat bench press, seated cable rows, and farmers walks.

The shoulder work is not a waste of time my friend, and the military press is not enough by a long shot to build strong, stable shoulders.

All I can say is this... You've been working out for what? 6 months? yes you may have had inspiration from these coaches who are well respected but take into consideration they have had many years of experience in training directly or training others, so programs they make have a rhyme and reson and one cannot just parrot what they say since it may not be applicable to you...

I haven't referenced any articles that only apply to this or that individual, or people with special conditions, or people with a specific training age. I've only referred to information that applies equally to everyone, except maybe veterans who lost both their arms in a war :D

Knowing a bunch of theory is different from actually spending your time training and I have had my fair share of training experience on myself and others who has stuck to the compund basic exercises and I haven't seen any imbalanc that is a disaster waiting to happen, if any, a minor tweak in form or exercise subtitution was al that was needed to correct any imbalance there was.

I'm amused that your refer to the anatomy and kinesiology of the human shoulder as "a bunch of theory".

Forgive me if your anecdotal "I do this and I feel just fine" doesn't particularly convince me.

Also, if you people look at my program, you'll see that it is a lot of heavy compound movements, supplemented with some external rotation, serratus, and hip ad/abduction movements... that's it. I never said compound movements are bad, I simply said that using only the big compound movements and nothing else isn't as effective, nor as safe, as using supplemental exercises to promote stability and balance.

[g-bells]

No, it's not. That's simply false. If you would have actually read the article I linked, you'd understand why it's important to work those various muscles before an injury occurs so that hopefully you never have to incur one. Take a look at Wikipedia's article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder#Major_muscles) on the shoulder. Scroll down to where it lists the "major muscles", and read all about the different muscles of the shoulder joint, where they attach, and what they do.

The shoulder and it's musculature is often simply called the "delts". Obviously this is a very generalized reference.

Just as the external obliques, the internal obliques, the transversus abdominis, rectus abdominis, the pyramidalis muscle and others are all commonly referred to as the "abs". People simplify the whole general region because obviously not everyone is going to bother memorizing their entire musculoskeletal anatomy.



I can't figure out if you're actually serious or not. From the article, which you really should do yourself a favor and read:



Yes, of course I am - that's not even a contest.

Eric Cressey, a NSCA Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, is currently pursuing his Master's degree in Exercise Science through the University of Connecticut's Department of Kinesiology. He graduated from the University of New England with a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management. Eric has worked to help others achieve their goals in clinical (cardiac and pulmonary rehabilitation), general fitness, and athletic performance settings.

He's one of the most prominant authors for T-Nation, I find it hilarious you refer to him as Joe Blow :rolleyes:



Yeah, and plenty of people who smoke haven't gotten lung cancer. I also know a lot of people who have driven drunk without actually hitting anything/anyone. There's also people who are obese but haven't yet had a heart attack.

You're lucky, nothing more. I'm glad you haven't hurt yourself yet, but that doesn't change the fact that you could be training better and safer. If you would stop running your mouth for 5 seconds, long enough to actually read some of the material I've provided, you could make some changes to your own personal program that would undoubtedly help you in size, strength, stablization, and of course safety. Or you can keep telling me that your "basics" are flawless and convince yourself that lucky somehow means intelligent.



For the past 6 months my program has been back squats, orthodox deadlifts, cleans, dips, pullups, chinups, flat bench press, seated cable rows, and farmers walks.

The shoulder work is not a waste of time my friend, and the military press is not enough by a long shot to build strong, stable shoulders.



I haven't referenced any articles that only apply to this or that individual, or people with special conditions, or people with a specific training age. I've only referred to information that applies equally to everyone, except maybe veterans who lost both their arms in a war :D



I'm amused that your refer to the anatomy and kinesiology of the human shoulder as "a bunch of theory".

Forgive me if your anecdotal "I do this and I feel just fine" doesn't particularly convince me.

Also, if you people look at my program, you'll see that it is a lot of heavy compound movements, supplemented with some external rotation, serratus, and hip ad/abduction movements... that's it. I never said compound movements are bad, I simply said that using only the big compound movements and nothing else isn't as effective, nor as safe, as using supplemental exercises to promote stability and balance.

i've been quite polite with you and your untried BS but when you tell me to close my mouth it's on now out the door go the proper responses. you've been lifting for what? 6 months? all your knowledge comes from what you have read and not from personal experience, come off your high horse with all that it staes this here bs and do some actual training until then your ramblings are just that ramblings.

have you had basic anatomy? the cat's shoulder is composed of three heads not the humans, when you do basic compound movements you are working those intraquit muscles you keep printing to try and sound intelligent. have'nt you read that some where??????????

since you seem to know all and can tell all i'm done arguing with a keyboard know it all. anyway i wish you the best in your training

[Socrastein]

I don't see why asking someone to read before they speak is so offensive, but if you feel so inclined to get upset then that's on you.

I also don't see how training age has much to do with this discussion. How long I've lifted has no effect on the validity of any of the statements I've made. For you to resort to attacking my credibility, rather than my actual arguments, gives the impression that you don't have anything meaningful to say.

It doesn't matter if I've been training 5 days or 50 years - if you disagree with what I'm saying, I'm open to counterarguments.

Yes I do understand basic anatomy. First, I'll remind you that it was you who first mentioned the three heads of the shoulder. I assumed you were referring to the deltoid muscle. The deltoid muscle has three sections, the front head, the side head and the rear head. I'm not sure what cat shoulders have to do with this.

You can throw a little pissy fit and refuse to talk if you want, but you haven't addressed any of my points. Perhaps your training age is the disadvantage, because you seem to be the one who thinks he knows it all and has it all figured out, and doesn't want to listen to someone who has something to say that's different from what you've done for however many years.

[koto_ryu]

Could you please explain this statement to me? Because I've never heard such a thing. In fact, I've only ever heard the exact opposite. As I mentioned earlier, Chad Waterbury inpsired my program to a good degree, and he repeatedly suggests that lifters not repeat any large compound movements in one week to stave off adaptation and maximize gains. By cycling between unilateral and bilateral movements, dumbell and barbell exercises, full ROM and partial ROM variations, etc. I was under the impression I would be promoting great increases in strength, coordination, and neural efficiency, as well as preventing adapation, imbalance, and weak stabalizers.

Think of this in terms of martial arts then. There are basic techniques in all martial arts that must be constantly trained. By only training one per training session and applying in more frivolous techniques, you won't become as skilled as someone who is firmly ground in the basics. Your foundation is barely built yet and already you're trying to put in a fancy staircase in your house.

Adaptation is actually one of the basic training principles you want to take into consideration. The more your body adapts to something, the more you can utilize it more efficiently (similar to how a roundhouse kick is trained). You need not fear you won't be getting anything out of the exercise though, as there are also other training principles such as progressive overload (adding weight to your exercises), intensity (what % of your max you train with) and volume (whether you perform higher reps or lower reps).

Neurological efficiency is built by constantly utilizing the same pathways. This is where most of your initial gains begin before your muscles begin to strengthen. However, to build that efficiency you need to perform that movement many many times (much like you would need to do to perfect a reverse punch or a front kick). Once those pathways are finely tuned, phenomenal things occur, whether it's Pyrros Dimas' 469 pound clean and jerk or a karate punch that can shatter ice blocks. Frequent training in that movement is the only way either of those are possible.

Also, in regards to weak stabilizers: this is true that varied exercises can affect your stabilizers somewhat, but it's also true that a barbell cannot replace a heavy awkward object. With something as simple as a heavy sandbag, you could not only be training those stabilizers but also getting in a good workout. Training with a sandbag sounds too simplistic for those who like the overly complicated yet low result producing crowd.

There is a group out there called Westside which has a similar approach to what you want, which they call the conjugate method. While they add in a variety of different exercises, they still focus predominantly on compound exercises. Their focus is to train explosive power, speed, and strength all at once. I recommend you give them a look: http://www.westside-barbell.com/

[koto_ryu]

Also, if you people look at my program, you'll see that it is a lot of heavy compound movements, supplemented with some external rotation, serratus, and hip ad/abduction movements... that's it. I never said compound movements are bad, I simply said that using only the big compound movements and nothing else isn't as effective, nor as safe, as using supplemental exercises to promote stability and balance.

I'd have to disagree there. Being a competitive amateur strongman, 99% of my routine is based on heavy compounds. Not only that, but some of my best gains strength and mass wise have been on a mere two days per week. During season prep, I sometimes bump that up to 3 but usually no more than 3. While it varies according to contests, this is my current approach:

WEEK ONE:
MONDAY:
Oly-Style Back Squats (4x5)
Clean and Strict Press (4x5, clean first rep)
Yates Rows (4x5)
Farmer's Walk (100ft with one turn at 50ft, one time)
Decline Situps (2x8-15 with weight)
Calf Raises (3x8)

WEDNESDAY:
Snatch alternated with Squat Cleans (5x3)
Incline Log Bench (4x5)
Yoke Walking (two warm-up sets, one work set)
Side Bends (2x8-15)
Neck Harness (2x8)

SATURDAY:
Log Presses (4x5, clean once then press for reps)
Deadlifts for Reps (2" thickbar or barbell, max reps in 60 sec with contest weight)
Keg Carry (5 kegs for 30ft apiece)
**Backwards Sled Dragging (max weight on sled) and Tire Toss (three throws apiece)

WEEK TWO:
MONDAY:
Front Squats (4x5)
Dumbbell Clean and Press (4x5, clean first rep)
Overhead Squats (4x5)
Farmer's Walk (100ft with one turn at 50ft, one time)
Decline Situps (2x8-15 with weight)
Calf Raises (3x8)

WEDNESDAY:
Deadlifts (4x5)
Bench Press (4x5, barbell)
Front Carries (two warm-up sets, one work set)
Side Bends (2x8-15)
Neck Harness (2x8)

SATURDAY:
Axle Clean and Jerk (5 singles)
Atlas Stones (do 8-12 sets)
Farmer's Power Hold (three sets)
**Backwards Sled Dragging (max weight on sled) and Tire Toss (three throws apiece)

Seems a bit too simplistic you could say, as overall it focuses only on big lifts. Result-producing? Very much so. Weight training is not a complex activity. Once thinking gets too complex, results start to fall. That's why as soon as the U.S. began trying out the Eastern European periodization schemes, we went from being a top contender at O-lifting to nothing of note.

[g-bells]

I don't see why asking someone to read before they speak is so offensive, but if you feel so inclined to get upset then that's on you.

I also don't see how training age has much to do with this discussion. How long I've lifted has no effect on the validity of any of the statements I've made. For you to resort to attacking my credibility, rather than my actual arguments, gives the impression that you don't have anything meaningful to say.

It doesn't matter if I've been training 5 days or 50 years - if you disagree with what I'm saying, I'm open to counterarguments.

Yes I do understand basic anatomy. First, I'll remind you that it was you who first mentioned the three heads of the shoulder. I assumed you were referring to the deltoid muscle. The deltoid muscle has three sections, the front head, the side head and the rear head. I'm not sure what cat shoulders have to do with this.

You can throw a little pissy fit and refuse to talk if you want, but you haven't addressed any of my points. Perhaps your training age is the disadvantage, because you seem to be the one who thinks he knows it all and has it all figured out, and doesn't want to listen to someone who has something to say that's different from what you've done for however many years.

just because you have read some articles and some books does'nt make you a expert.. you are an ingotistical little tart who thinks cause he reads he knows all. time one trains does make a difference you little troll... you can read all the material you want to but until you have actually put in the time training all your arguements are just other peoples experiences. what makes you think what has worked for those you chose to follow will actually work for you?only time will tell if it does so there is where the experience factor comes into play. you stating that experience plays no part in knowing what is right and what is wrong just proves your ignorance

as for me knowing it all, i never claimed to know it all, but i have put more time in the weight room actually training than you probably ever will.

i would be happy to listen to you if you have put in the time, come to your conclusions thru trial and error, and have more than 6 monhts under your belt. you can learn everything about swimming from a book, but until you have jumped into the water and swam you can't say you know how to swim

this is'nt the only thread were you spout all this material with no to little actual experience. quit trolling, train then come back an put in your 2 cents, until then i don't even need to keep bothering with you, walk away yes , why ? because you can't imput anything that i can't read myself

[NaughtyKnight]

Soc. Training your exterior rotars is good enough to prevent shoulder injury. You dont need all the other crap in there.

Do exterior work once a week.

[TheMachine]

As I always belive Ignorance is curable Stupidity is terminal...

I hav learned through the years that real life experience beats any book or theory on paper any given day... The book can only tell you some things but cannot tell you what other things may happen

[cxw]

The thing with only having trained for 6 months is that you'll make good progress with a mediocre program. I managed to get to a 2 times bodyweight deadlift with a mediocre program.

My training understanding evolves over time (I lag way behind the strength level of lots of the other posters). My advise is steal from these people. Eric Cressey writes fine articles but you have to choose the right time (and excercises and volume) to include shoulder specialisation work.

Just like a tomato is a fine vegetable but it's not always appropriate to include in food.

[TheMachine]

The thing with only having trained for 6 months is that you'll make good progress with a mediocre program. I managed to get to a 2 times bodyweight deadlift with a mediocre program.

My training understanding evolves over time (I lag way behind the strength level of lots of the other posters). My advise is steal from these people. Eric Cressey writes fine articles but you have to choose the right time (and excercises and volume) to include shoulder specialisation work.

Just like a tomato is a fine vegetable but it's not always appropriate to include in food.

Very true...

In fact if you have been training for a year or less 99% of the time, you won't even need to specialize

[Socrastein]

Think of this in terms of martial arts then. There are basic techniques in all martial arts that must be constantly trained. By only training one per training session and applying in more frivolous techniques, you won't become as skilled as someone who is firmly ground in the basics. Your foundation is barely built yet and already you're trying to put in a fancy staircase in your house.

That's a great analogy actually, and you've definitely helped to illustrate where you're coming from and I see your concern pretty clearly now. However, I don't think that weight training with multiple exercises is detrimental in the same way as learning too many fighting techniques, which definitely is a detriment I would agree. I do love to box after all, so I understand the idea of emphasizing the basics very well.

First of all, I disagree that my foundation is barely built. Like I said, I've been lifting for over 4 years, the past 6 months of which have been conistently 3 days a week without break. I can bench almost 150% of my bodyweight, I can full squat 150% my bodyweight, I can do a powerlifter squat with more than 200% my bodyweight, I can deadlift more than 200% my bodyweight, I can overhead press more than my bodyweight, I can overhead squat my bodyweight, I can dip with 70lbs attached to past 90 degree elbow flexion, and I can perform a weighted chin-up with 70lbs attached to me. I can also row (all the way to my chest) more than my bodyweight.

As far as I understand, that's a pretty good foundation. I can also close the #2 COC with both hands, I never use wrist straps for any lifts, in fact with every exercise I can I wrap towels around the bar, both to prevent calluses and to challenge my grip that much more.

The question I have, is what does it hurt to include a few additional exercises that will help promote structural balance? They're not taxing on the nervous system, so they're not going to negatively effect my other lifts at all. In fact, they should help to make my squat, deadlift, and bench all increase, among other big lifts.

The only drawback is time, that's it. Like Blessed Samurai already said, if I've got the extra time, go for it, if I don't, cut them out. Well, fortunately for me I've got plenty of time. I work on the rock wall of our local YMCA, and it closes at 8pm. The rest of the Y doesn't close until 10pm, so I have 2 free hours to do whatever I want. Time is not an issue.

So honestly, what's the big deal? By throwing in some external rotations and serratus work, I'll ensure I have good balance with my rotator cuff, I'll be hitting movement patterns that the large compounds lifts can't and thus ensuring proper balance, and I'll be increasing my numbers on some of my biggest lifts.

Time is the only trade off for increased strength, size, and stability in my muscles. I have plenty of time, so what is everybody's problem?

Neurological efficiency is built by constantly utilizing the same pathways. This is where most of your initial gains begin before your muscles begin to strengthen. However, to build that efficiency you need to perform that movement many many times (much like you would need to do to perfect a reverse punch or a front kick). Once those pathways are finely tuned, phenomenal things occur, whether it's Pyrros Dimas' 469 pound clean and jerk or a karate punch that can shatter ice blocks. Frequent training in that movement is the only way either of those are possible.

Agreed. I don't see what you're getting at though. I have been training the big lifts for a long time, and I am still including all the big lifts (except olympic lifts) in my program.

Training with a sandbag sounds too simplistic for those who like the overly complicated yet low result producing crowd.

I have a broken 150lb sandbag made out of an old army duffel bag duct taped shut sitting on my back porch. Before it broke (The canvas ripped open one day when I dropped it after shouldering it) I trained with it for about a year. Sandbags are phenomenal training tools, and they are very simple and cheap to make. When I first made that thing it took me nearly a full minute to get it to my shoulder, and I thought I was going to die. After a few months I was doing sets of cleans with it and carrying it for hundred-foot sets. I plan to order a new one this summer. In the mean time I've made myself a 27 lb medicine ball (a basketball, duct tape, and sand from my broken sand bag) for my sunday circuits. I'm also keeping my eyes open for an empty keg that nobody wants, but that's been harder to find than I thought it would be.

While they add in a variety of different exercises, they still focus predominantly on compound exercises.

Hmmm, sounds exactly like what I'm doing :rolleyes:

Seems a bit too simplistic (my routine) you could say, as overall it focuses only on big lifts. Result-producing? Very much so. Weight training is not a complex activity.

Of course it would be result producing. For the love of Christ when did I EVER SAY that compound lifts were ineffective? I've been performing them for a long time, and they are still the meat and potatoes of my new program.

And I'm sorry, but weight training is complex. There are dozens of muscles, dozens of movement patterns, a complicated interplay between our different muscle groups, multiple set/rep schemes that effect our muscles and our nervous system in different ways, rest times, tempo, intensity, periodization, cycling, recovery, supplementation, etc. A million different factors, and a million different kinds of people who have a million different conditions and genetic factors, all of which change the way they respond to this or that movement, this or that volume, etc.

You're kidding yourself if you think this stuff is black and white, even remotely.

[koto_ryu]

The only drawback is time, that's it. Like Blessed Samurai already said, if I've got the extra time, go for it, if I don't, cut them out. Well, fortunately for me I've got plenty of time. I work on the rock wall of our local YMCA, and it closes at 8pm. The rest of the Y doesn't close until 10pm, so I have 2 free hours to do whatever I want. Time is not an issue.

Since you have the time and are willing to devote that much to it then, I don't see too much of a problem with it. Just make sure you're getting adequate rest and avoiding 2+ hour long workouts.

And I'm sorry, but weight training is complex. There are dozens of muscles, dozens of movement patterns, a complicated interplay between our different muscle groups, multiple set/rep schemes that effect our muscles and our nervous system in different ways, rest times, tempo, intensity, periodization, cycling, recovery, supplementation, etc. A million different factors, and a million different kinds of people who have a million different conditions and genetic factors, all of which change the way they respond to this or that movement, this or that volume, etc.

You're kidding yourself if you think this stuff is black and white, even remotely.

Of course there may be many different ways of doing it, but they all fall back down to the foundation of weight training. Even something as "complex" as strength training still has basic principles. Hard work, compound exercises, progressive resistance, proper reps/sets for you that works, etc.

Think about the gains you've made already. Were they made with an overly complicated, systematic program or a simple one? If it's the former, then you'd be surprised how much the latter works as well. I highly recommend checking out http://www.brookskubik.com/ and his book "Dinosaur Training." He shows you how a "simple" routine can be incredibly result-producing. Just ignore the new bodyweight training kick he's on.

[TheMachine]

What we have here my friends is the perfect case of paralysis by analysis

[NaughtyKnight]

So true.

Soc. Stop reading books. There is a point where you know too much, we all reach it, then its 10x harder to workout.

Dips
Pullups
Military Press
weighted crunches/sidebends
Bench
Dumbell Row
Squat
Deadlift

All done, adding weight progressivly, eating enough and sleeping. You'll pack on muscle and strength in no time.

[Socrastein]

What we have here my friends is the perfect case of paralysis by analysis

I don't quite see where the paralysis is applicable here. I'm not paralyzed at all, I haven't stopped working out so I can sit in my room while my head swims with all the things I read about.

More like, motivation through information :D

Soc. Stop reading books. There is a point where you know too much, we all reach it, then its 10x harder to workout.

Dips
Pullups
Military Press
weighted crunches/sidebends
Bench
Dumbell Row
Squat
Deadlift

All done, adding weight progressivly, eating enough and sleeping. You'll pack on muscle and strength in no time.

I haven't reached that point yet I guess, cause I have no problem working out, and the things I learn only help me to attain my goals.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I already told you that I've been doing the program you mentioned, again, for the past 6 months straight. I know you're very well aware that you can't keep doing the same thing forever and expect to keep reaping rewards.

[Lily]

Socrastein - post a pic of your body

[NaughtyKnight]

I don't quite see where the paralysis is applicable here. I'm not paralyzed at all, I haven't stopped working out so I can sit in my room while my head swims with all the things I read about.

More like, motivation through information :D



I haven't reached that point yet I guess, cause I have no problem working out, and the things I learn only help me to attain my goals.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I already told you that I've been doing the program you mentioned, again, for the past 6 months straight. I know you're very well aware that you can't keep doing the same thing forever and expect to keep reaping rewards.

Unless you are lifting some very large weights, you have ALOT more to grow before you need to think about change.

[Socrastein]

Socrastein - post a pic of your body

Umm... awkward.

Unless you are lifting some very large weights, you have ALOT more to grow before you need to think about change.

I'm not lifting tremendous weights. However, it's becoming harder for me to keep adding lbs to the bar every single workout. It used to be I could add 10 lbs every workout. Then 5. Then 2.5. Then a few lbs every week. Then every 2 weeks. Now it's really hard. Everyone will experience this if they do the exact same thing for a prolonged period of time. Surely you know this. By throwing in some unilateral work, different exercise variations of the squat and deadlift, and switching up my rep schemes, I should be able to continue making progress.

You know I love you naughty, but seriously, this is really basic stuff. You have to switch it up to keep making good gains.

[Lily]

[QUOTE=Socrastein]Umm... awkward. :D Don't flatter yourself Soc, its for academic purposes ONLY.

The reason being it would be good if our resident health nuts could have a pic to gauge your current physique and the appropriateness of your program. Given that you've done a certain amount of training, it should show.

You've started right?

[Socrastein]

The reason being it would be good if our resident health nuts could have a pic to gauge your current physique and the appropriateness of your program. Given that you've done a certain amount of training, it should show.

I'm fairly certain that you can't just look at someone and judge how much they've trained or how strong they are.

[Lily]

At least let's make sure you're not carrying an extra 100kg.

[Socrastein]

Only when I'm in the power rack :)

[NaughtyKnight]

Your not going to be adding 10lbs to your lifts forever. Its pretty obvious. When you hit close to your peak (which you wont for a loooooooong time) your poundage gains scream to a halt. If you want to do other lifts, thats fine, but adding in random crap to hit different parts of your shoulder is a waste of time.

Spend some time working on Apollo's Axel, sand bag lifts or something if you want to work on raw strength.

I see no point in over complicating something that should be very simple. Lift heavy stuff to get stronger. I've spent the last few years reading random articles and researching health and fitness. I came to the point where I knew too much. Now I just follow a basic program religously. When I dont make any more progress, then I'll change it up. Knowing the way your body gets stronger, from the atomic level, is a waste of time.

[CosmicFish]

Sorry Soc, I have to agree with the over-analysis guys here. I know one case isn't conclusive evidence, but for what it's worth - I've been lifting for just over a year and I only ever do nine basic exercises, week in week out, over and over. I'm still regularly adding weight to each of the lifts. Sure, not every week, but so long as progress is being made, that's what matters. There's also no hint of any imbalances whatsoever.

I hate to sound macho, because I'm certainly not, but there's an old saying which I think is perfect for your situation: "Shut up and squat." :)

[Socrastein]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm not intimidated by anatomy, kinesiology, physiology, etc. I don't see how someone can "know too much". That's a really cute cartoon you posted Cosmicfish, I got a laugh out of it, but if you actually think that it relates to me in the slightest then that's pretty ridiculous. Once again I'll repeat myself and encourage you to take a look at my program and notice that I am squatting or deadlifting with every workout. I have dips, bench press, pullups, rows, and other big compound lifts that make up the bulk of my program.

I've already made it clear that I have time for the supplemental work, so the only argument that leaves you guys with is "Well then those exercises are absolutely useless", which Naughty has touched on...

If you want to do other lifts, thats fine, but adding in random crap to hit different parts of your shoulder is a waste of time.

So, my question is: can you prove it? Or at least adequately explain it? I've posted articles that detail all the myriad benefits of targeting the serratus muscles and your external rotators. Can someone post an article that explains why those are a fantastic waste of time? Can someone explain to me why a weak rotator cuff is desirable? Can someone explain to me why I don't need to balance scapular retraction, scapular protraction, scapular elevation, scapular depression, internal rotation, and external rotation? How is this a bad thing? Better yet, can someone explain to me how it's a good thing to have deficiency and imbalance between these movements?

I can guarantee you both that if you're "religiously" sticking to just a few compound lifts that you are creating large imbalances over time. The core compound lifts are awesome, but they are not all encompassing. There is no big lift that works external rotation that I know of. There is no large compound lift that targets the serratus anterior. There are no large compound lifts that I know of that train scapular depression.

If you two are only using popular compound movements, then it's safe to say you have very deficient external rotators and scapular depressors. This is an imbalance. Just because you might not notice it Cosmicfish doesn't mean it's not there.

So I'm sitting here waiting for somebody to prove to me that it's okay to have these weaknesses, that imbalance is a good thing as long as you're getting strong. You guys have all been dismissive, nothing more. You've not offered anything in the way of proof, evidence, or even a detailed explanation. You just keep squawking over and over "Keep it simple, you don't need that stuff".

I hate to sound macho, because I'm certainly not, but there's an old saying which I think is perfect for your situation: "Step up or shut up."

[koto_ryu]

All I have to say is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." You've made good gains with the exercises you're doing now, no reason to complicate stuff more. If you are truly pushing yourself and working hard, you won't have much energy left for all the extra stuff.

Brooks Kubik has an excellent experiment in his book in the chapter on "Abbreviated Training." He essentially says you're free to believe that you can train hard and do lots of different exercises and sets/reps for each and go to the gym frequently. He recommends you try his experiment first though.

THE EXPERIMENT:
Go to the gym, warm-up, then do some light warm-up squats. Load the bar to what you normally do 10 reps with but don't start squatting next. Next, load another bar with a weight you can do for 10 reps with the stiff-legged deadlift (if you don't do those, then do 20lbs over your bent-over row poundage for 10 reps). Load another bar up on a bench with 20-30lbs UNDER your best bench for 10 reps and get a spotter.

Now do the following, no matter how long it takes, if you need short breaks, if you have to strip off poundages, whatever. Just do the following: do 30 reps in the squat (at least parallel), 20 reps in the SLDL (no bouncing), 10 reps with the bench. Then hop up on a pull-up bar and do 15 dead-hang pull-ups. Finish by grabbing your 150lb sandbag and take it for a walk around the block in a bearhug.

After that, you're free to do whatever it is you feel like doing for a well-rounded routine to avoid muscular imbalances. If you feel like working out again the next day or so, in the spirit of fairness, do the same workout but ADD five pounds. Then you can do whatever it is you wish. Work out as often as you want but always do this first. Then after you can do as many exercises as you'd like. Try it out and let us know how it feels.

[koto_ryu]

I can guarantee you both that if you're "religiously" sticking to just a few compound lifts that you are creating large imbalances over time. The core compound lifts are awesome, but they are not all encompassing. There is no big lift that works external rotation that I know of. There is no large compound lift that targets the serratus anterior. There are no large compound lifts that I know of that train scapular depression.

The barbell rear delt row for external rotation, and Kelso shrugs for the last two.

So I'm sitting here waiting for somebody to prove to me that it's okay to have these weaknesses, that imbalance is a good thing as long as you're getting strong. You guys have all been dismissive, nothing more. You've not offered anything in the way of proof, evidence, or even a detailed explanation. You just keep squawking over and over "Keep it simple, you don't need that stuff".

I hate to sound macho, because I'm certainly not, but there's an old saying which I think is perfect for your situation: "Step up or shut up."

What about those who have been lifting for 20+ years and have never had such imbalances? My O-lifting coach told us about the days he used to train in the Soviet Union for the CCCP O-lifting team. C&J/snatch first, snatch/clean pull from blocks, front/overhead squat, then one assistance exercise (we normally do bent-arm pullovers, GHRs, reverse hypers, pull-ups, or dips). That's all they did and they stomped butt left and right. In comparison, the U.S. team was all about periodization, perfect technique, and doing lots of assistance exercises instead of the lifts themselves. Coincidence that the U.S. has been pretty bad in O-lifting ever since? It's a possibility....

[cxw]

Socraistein: Over the next 6 weeks try what you are suggesting. After that compare how you've done versus how you did on the last 6 weeks of simple training. And see which works better.

I think that the simple training will work better, but ultimately it's results, not theory that counts.

[TheMachine]

All I can say is you might be able to get away with some things due to beign a beginner and being young but eventually, you'll have to weed out some exercises and put them in the reserve list...

As we're al saying here, you can know a bunch of theory but you haven't spent enough time training to see the whole picture yet and books can only tell you something that happened but not other things that might happen.

[Socrastein]

All I have to say is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." You've made good gains with the exercises you're doing now, no reason to complicate stuff more.

That old gem of a saying has very limited applicability, especially to my situation. Of course nothing is "broken", and I have been making good gains, no doubt. By first of all, my sole goal isn't to add weight to the bar, as it seems to be for everyone else in this thread. I don't workout to workout, I workout for the sake of a healthy, balanced, strong body. Second of all, and I can't believe I'm STILL repeating this point, I'm still doing large compound movements with every workout. I'm not taking lifts out and replacing them with supplemental exercises, I'm adding supplemental exercises to my lifts.

Regarding THE EXPERIMENT.

Sounds like some good stuff. Sandbag bearhug around the block sounds brutal with 150lbs. Are you sure he didn't recommend something more like a 75 lb sand bag?

I don't really see the point you're making with it. That's not an argument, it's not even a good point. It's a random suggestion of a random routine.

The barbell rear delt row for external rotation, and Kelso shrugs for the last two.

Neither of those are basic, large compound movements. You can't move a lot of weight with either one. You definitely didn't see Naughty list either one on his list of essential lifts that are all you need. You've only helped to illustrate my point: the two exercises you listed are supplemental ones.

What about those who have been lifting for 20+ years and have never had such imbalances?

I'm sorry, but that's not an argument, and that's not evidence. You want me to just take your word that you know people who have lifted with simple program for a couple decades and somehow their bodies magically strengthened muscles that they never trained in order to balance itself?

As we're al saying here, you can know a bunch of theory but you haven't spent enough time training to see the whole picture yet and books can only tell you something that happened but not other things that might happen.

Once again, saying "You just don't know what you're talking about cause you're young" isn't an argument. It's not evidence. It's pitiful at best, and downright rude at worst.

Like I said, if anyone has something solid in the way of why supplemental exercises for shoulder stability and balance are useless, I'm all ears. If nobody does, then I'll assume you guys are just doing some really subtle trolling.

[Lily]

Like I said, if anyone has something solid in the way of why supplemental exercises for shoulder stability and balance are useless, I'm all ears. If nobody does, then I'll assume you guys are just doing some really subtle trolling.

I just wanted a picture

[NaughtyKnight]

If your replies weren't essay long, I might actually bother to read them.

[TheMachine]

That old gem of a saying has very limited applicability, especially to my situation. Of course nothing is "broken", and I have been making good gains, no doubt. By first of all, my sole goal isn't to add weight to the bar, as it seems to be for everyone else in this thread. I don't workout to workout, I workout for the sake of a healthy, balanced, strong body. Second of all, and I can't believe I'm STILL repeating this point, I'm still doing large compound movements with every workout. I'm not taking lifts out and replacing them with supplemental exercises, I'm adding supplemental exercises to my lifts.

Regarding THE EXPERIMENT.

Sounds like some good stuff. Sandbag bearhug around the block sounds brutal with 150lbs. Are you sure he didn't recommend something more like a 75 lb sand bag?

I don't really see the point you're making with it. That's not an argument, it's not even a good point. It's a random suggestion of a random routine.



Neither of those are basic, large compound movements. You can't move a lot of weight with either one. You definitely didn't see Naughty list either one on his list of essential lifts that are all you need. You've only helped to illustrate my point: the two exercises you listed are supplemental ones.


I'm sorry, but that's not an argument, and that's not evidence. You want me to just take your word that you know people who have lifted with simple program for a couple decades and somehow their bodies magically strengthened muscles that they never trained in order to balance itself?



Once again, saying "You just don't know what you're talking about cause you're young" isn't an argument. It's not evidence. It's pitiful at best, and downright rude at worst.

Like I said, if anyone has something solid in the way of why supplemental exercises for shoulder stability and balance are useless, I'm all ears. If nobody does, then I'll assume you guys are just doing some really subtle trolling.

At this stagein yoru traning all the stabilization exercises wouldbe covered by doign a standing military press. Your body is still learning to fully maximize its potential at this stage so specialization is not yet needed.

[koto_ryu]

That old gem of a saying has very limited applicability, especially to my situation. Of course nothing is "broken", and I have been making good gains, no doubt. By first of all, my sole goal isn't to add weight to the bar, as it seems to be for everyone else in this thread. I don't workout to workout, I workout for the sake of a healthy, balanced, strong body.

If you're not constantly adding weight to the bar, you're not getting any stronger. If your body can handle 225 pounds in the squat for 5 reps, sticking with it isn't going to do it: you need to go to 230-235-240 etc.

Second of all, and I can't believe I'm STILL repeating this point, I'm still doing large compound movements with every workout. I'm not taking lifts out and replacing them with supplemental exercises, I'm adding supplemental exercises to my lifts.

And like I said before, if you work out hard enough, you shouldn't have much energy left to do those supplemental exercises. If you're military pressing 225 pounds for reps, do you really think a 5lb weight used for external rotation exercises is going to strengthen your shoulders anymore? That's like doing squats with 500+ pounds that drill you into the floor, then deciding to do leg presses: completely unnecessary.

Regarding THE EXPERIMENT.

Sounds like some good stuff. Sandbag bearhug around the block sounds brutal with 150lbs. Are you sure he didn't recommend something more like a 75 lb sand bag?

I don't really see the point you're making with it. That's not an argument, it's not even a good point. It's a random suggestion of a random routine.

Far from it. My recommendation was try working out in a routine where you push yourself far beyond what you might now be capable of. Once you're done with that, you're free to do what you wish so you can add in 100 supplementary exercises if you choose.

Neither of those are basic, large compound movements. You can't move a lot of weight with either one. You definitely didn't see Naughty list either one on his list of essential lifts that are all you need. You've only helped to illustrate my point: the two exercises you listed are supplemental ones.

Well, first of all, you claim to have worked out for 4 years but your numbers are not impressive at all to be honest. Hate to break it to you, but unless you are actually moving serious weight (in the realms of 200-300 pounds for most upper body movements, 400+ squat, and 500+ deadlift), you have absolutely nothing to worry about anything.

Secondly, what is the rear delt row aside from a bent over row that's just slightly higher up? Nothing. You can move almost equivalent weights if you work at it hard. Personally, I find it unnecessary once you're doing such things as cleans, high pulls, and snatches. As for the Kelso shrug, one of the best back exercises you can do to improve your main lifts (which should be the focus of supplementary exercises, not attempting to rehabilitate healthy joints) as well as strengthen your back from a different angle.

I'm sorry, but that's not an argument, and that's not evidence. You want me to just take your word that you know people who have lifted with simple program for a couple decades and somehow their bodies magically strengthened muscles that they never trained in order to balance itself?

How about showing us lots of evidence of those who have been lifting for years who now suffer horribly from all sorts of muscular imbalances and weaknesses? There are always those who are less or more prone to injury. For example: My O-lifting coach Alex is definitely less, Mark Phillipi is more. Alex once fell 30 feet out of a crane, landed on his feet, and was in the gym doing "light snatches" with 110kg the same day. Mark Phillipi tears something every time he does strongman. You're so worried about the shoulders, but what about the knees, the back, the hamstrings, the hip flexors, etc. etc. ALL things that can be injured as well? Do you propose to do rehabilitation exercises for every single joint and muscle group you have?

To be honest, it's your body and it's your life, just don't be surprised when the gains you make aren't quite what you expected. Meanwhile, I'll go back training with guys who have "muscular imbalances" and who bench 530 raw and deadlift 700 pounds at a BW of 211.

[Socrastein]

If you're not constantly adding weight to the bar, you're not getting any stronger. If your body can handle 225 pounds in the squat for 5 reps, sticking with it isn't going to do it: you need to go to 230-235-240 etc.

Agreed, to a certain extent. Except, when did I say I don't plan to add weight to the bar?

And like I said before, if you work out hard enough, you shouldn't have much energy left to do those supplemental exercises. If you're military pressing 225 pounds for reps, do you really think a 5lb weight used for external rotation exercises is going to strengthen your shoulders anymore? That's like doing squats with 500+ pounds that drill you into the floor, then deciding to do leg presses: completely unnecessary.

I work out plenty hard. I don't train to failure though, and there's no reason to. As such, I always still have some energy leftover to do something else.

My recommendation was try working out in a routine where you push yourself far beyond what you might now be capable of. Once you're done with that, you're free to do what you wish so you can add in 100 supplementary exercises if you choose.

Yeah, I get that, but once again, what's your point? Are you even making a point? Cause it looks like you're just randomly saying "Workout really hard and then try those exercises", which, I hate to break it to you, doesn't prove anything.

Well, first of all, you claim to have worked out for 4 years but your numbers are not impressive at all to be honest. Hate to break it to you, but unless you are actually moving serious weight (in the realms of 200-300 pounds for most upper body movements, 400+ squat, and 500+ deadlift), you have absolutely nothing to worry about anything.

I never gave you numbers if you'll remember. I did give %'s of my bodyweight. I weight about 195lbs. First off, it's pretty ignorant of you to hold everyone, regardless of bodyweight, to the same standard of weight. I know guys who can deadlift 500lbs, but that's less than 2x their bodyweight. Even though I lift almost 100lbs less than them, it's more than 2x my bodyweight. As a strongman I can understand that you think in absolute strength terms like that, but I don't want to be huge and strong, I want to be lean and strong. Relative strength is more important to me.

Secondly, what is the rear delt row aside from a bent over row that's just slightly higher up? Nothing. You can move almost equivalent weights if you work at it hard. Personally, I find it unnecessary once you're doing such things as cleans, high pulls, and snatches. As for the Kelso shrug, one of the best back exercises you can do to improve your main lifts (which should be the focus of supplementary exercises, not attempting to rehabilitate healthy joints) as well as strengthen your back from a different angle.

You can move almost equivalent weights if you work at it hard? It's a supplemental exercise. It's not one of the basic, large compound lifts. To me, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's anything other than that.

Also, I specifically stated, a few times actually, that improving my big lifts was one of the main reasons I was adding supplemental exercises. I'm amused by how much I have to repeat myself in this thread. Let me list my reasons for them again...

Stability: Balance between all the different muscles that control the scapula and thus lead to healthy shoulder function.

Strength: by creating strong balanced shoulders capable of bearing higher loads, I can improve some of my big lifts, like bench presses, dips, overhead presses, overhead squats, etc.

Size: Like I said, I don't want to be hooge and strong, I want to be lean and strong. With a low body fat %, hypertrophy of some of the small muscles that control the scapulae leads to more definition in the upper back.

Posture: When the muscles of your shoulder are balanced and you don't have excessive tightness and muscle impingement, your posture improves and you can improve problems like internal rotation of the humerus, and forward leaning of the head, to name a couple.

Safety: Last but not least, strong stable shoulders are less likely to be injured, acutely or chronicly, than imbalance shoulders with muscle weaknesses.

Nobody has even come close, not even close, to debunking a single benefit of a couple supplemental exercises with each workout. The closest anyone has come to something resembling an argument is Koto's "You'll be too tired to do those exercises". Well, that's simply false, I don't know how else to put it. I can do a heavy set of deadlifts and still have juice for a couple more exercises before I do rows and dips. I don't train to failure, I don't train with humongous volume (10 sets of 10 or something ridiculous like that), I have my diet in order, I supplement properly, I use pre and postworkout nutrition, I get plenty of sleep every night. It won't be a problem. I've already tried a few sample days of my workout, I got through them just fine. The only one I'm really going to have a problem with is my Sunday circuit.

How about showing us lots of evidence of those who have been lifting for years who now suffer horribly from all sorts of muscular imbalances and weaknesses?

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1005505
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1035054
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1339581
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1269171
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1076897
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1128603
http://www.pponline.co.uk/forum/talk-injury/shoulder-injury-2
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/fitness/messages/667.html
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2028501&highlight=shoulder+injury

If you search around for people with shoulder injuries, you'll find 'em by the dozen. Some have been lifting a long time, some haven't. Some suffer complete disclocation, some just have minor impingement. The fact is, the shoulder is a very mobile joint, it's not built for stability. We have to train that stability, or that ROM comes with a price.

My friend Richard has been lifting for years. He wrestled for 10 years, he benches over 300, and deadlifts over 500. Last month we were working out together and he dislocated his right shoulder on a warmup set of overhead squats. We were only using 95lbs, and on I think his 3rd rep his shoulder popped and he dumped the weight on the catches. He's scary strong, but unfortunately his shoulders were scary imbalanced and they couldn't properly stabalize the load as he went down.

You could also e-mail Mike Robertson or Eric Cressey over at T-Nation and simply ask them if they have worked with very many people who've lifted big for a long time and suffer shoulder imbalances. I'm sure they'll get a good laugh out of it.

You're so worried about the shoulders, but what about the knees, the back, the hamstrings, the hip flexors, etc. etc. ALL things that can be injured as well? Do you propose to do rehabilitation exercises for every single joint and muscle group you have?

Knees - I make sure I have a balance between my quadriceps and my hamstrings, and I'm also training unilateral movements and throwing in extra hip abduction and adduction, which will all ensure I have a strong, balanced stabalizers with my leg. You'll never get that with only doing the "big, basic" bilateral lifts.

Back - I use proper form with all my lifts, I never stretch my lumbar spine (One of many reasons why Yoga sucks), and I train for balance between my erectors, my abdominals, my hip extensors, and my hamstrings/glutes to prevent anterior or posterior tilting of the pelvis, which can lead to either excessive lordosis of the spine or increased risk of disc herniation in the lumbar region.

Hamstrings - most people have problems with their hamstrings because they suffer from anterior tilting of the pelvis which leaves the hamstrings in a permanently stretched position, leaving them prone to tears and strains. I train for a neutral pelvis to avoid this problem, and many others. You'd be surprised how many people suffer from this.

Hip flexors - again, it all comes back to avoiding excessive tilt in the pelvis and balancing the muscles that can contribute to this tilt.

I don't do rehabilitation exercises. I structure my program so that I never have to rehabilitate. I'm strengthening the muscles necessary for balance and stability, which will at the same time make me a safer lifter and a stronger lifter. What a ridiculous notion, right?

[koto_ryu]

Never mind, you know it all :rolleyes: You're just disappointed people weren't showering you with compliments over your program. Good luck with what you try to do. I recommend keeping a log though, preferably one which we can see. You might see a difference between what you hope to achieve and what you actually achieve.

Also, accredited sources are different from article submissions to popular training sites. But hey, your program is high-tech and perfect, what do us old-timers know? :rolleyes:

[TheMachine]

Never mind, you know it all :rolleyes: You're just disappointed people weren't showering you with compliments over your program. Good luck with what you try to do. I recommend keeping a log though, preferably one which we can see. You might see a difference between what you hope to achieve and what you actually achieve.

Also, accredited sources are different from article submissions to popular training sites. But hey, your program is high-tech and perfect, what do us old-timers know? :rolleyes:

Hmm yeah I guess we old timers are relegated to busting our butts again doing reps for 300 and up in the squat and deadlift and helping those who actually wanna learn from real life experiene and not just knowing a bunch of theory.....
and having that occasional beer or wine :D

[koto_ryu]

Hmm yeah I guess we old timers are relegated to busting our butts again doing reps for 300 and up in the squat and deadlift and helping those who actually wanna learn from real life experiene and not just knowing a bunch of theory.....
and having that occasional beer or wine :D

Just 300? You must be getting old ;)

[TheMachine]

Just 300? You must be getting old ;)

Yeah am getting old.... the bar is gathering rust :D

By this or next month I'm targetting to break my 5RM PR in the squat and deadlift

[Socrastein]

Never mind, you know it all You're just disappointed people weren't showering you with compliments over your program. Good luck with what you try to do. I recommend keeping a log though, preferably one which we can see. You might see a difference between what you hope to achieve and what you actually achieve.


No, I don't know everything. I don't claim to. I know that with any given opinion I have, or statement I make, I could very well be wrong. However, the only way I can know that I'm wrong is if someone can prove it to me. I don't just go changing my mind and my opinions on a whim because someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about.

If you could make convincing arguments as well as you can make sarcastic remarks, you might have changed my mind.

Also, accredited sources are different from article submissions to popular training sites. But hey, your program is high-tech and perfect, what do us old-timers know?

Someone who devotes years to studying a topic is pretty well accredited to speak on said topic. You'll also notice that the majority of articles on T-Nation make extensive reference to scientific studies related to whatever topic they happen to be talking about.

Something you need to keep in mind before you knock "theory" (also known as scientific research) and think that experience is superior.

Bruce Lee had years of training and lifting experience. He still didn't really know a lot about it.

Many professional bodybuilders have tons and tons of experience in the gym. At the same time, many of those professional bodybuilders don't know a lot about lifting.

Your average high school weight coach has been lifting and teaching for years. Your average high school weight coach also thinks that your knees will explode if you squat below parallel, tells the girls to do high reps to tone up, thinks that training aerobic endurance for anaerobic activities (Jogging miles at a time to prepare for wrestling matches), etc.

You keep committing the logical fallacy argumentum ad verecundiam, the appeal to authority. Your argument is basically "I've been doing this a long time, therefore I'm right". You seem insulted that I don't accept that as a legitimate argument. I ask for proof, and instead of providing it, you try to attribute childish motives to my posts and refuse to provide what I asked for.

I'm open to being proven wrong, I'm not immune to a good argument. There's just been a severe lack of them in this thread, and as such I'm left unconvinced and my interlocutors are left frustrated.

[NaughtyKnight]

Do you want to get stronger, or do you want to get a phd in fitness? All the info you are quoting means sfa in the grand scheme of things.

Get yourself a good coach, and religiously follow what they tell you. Its soo much easier to work yourself into the ground, when you dont have to think about every single thing you are doing.

Overcomplicating things is the easiest way to fail there is. Inertia is developed by knowing too much, but not know where to start.

[koto_ryu]

Yeah am getting old.... the bar is gathering rust :D

By this or next month I'm targetting to break my 5RM PR in the squat and deadlift

Good luck. Keep me posted via PM, as I'm no longer posting in this thread. The individuals who try to leap hurdles before they can walk but won't listen to others are dooming themselves. I made the effort, but I won't keep repeating myself.

[g-bells]

Good luck. Keep me posted via PM, as I'm no longer posting in this thread. The individuals who try to leap hurdles before they can walk but won't listen to others are dooming themselves. I made the effort, but I won't keep repeating myself.

koto ryu- you can join the club " those willing to offer years of actual training experience to those who refuse to accept"

membership is growing

[koto_ryu]

koto ryu- you can join the club " those willing to offer years of actual training experience to those who refuse to accept"

membership is growing

Sounds good :cool: