UFC 71- Liddell vs Rampage

[Apotheosis]

Source (http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=7015)

Apparently Rampage won't be getting his second "warm-up" fight that he wanted...

I know this is quite a ways off(May 26) but it is pretty big news....

[Mushroom]

its a bit quick

Rampage himself said he wasnt up for it...so itll be interesting to see whats going to happen

[14 Kempo]

I assume Dana White doesn't want to take a chance like Pride did with Wanderlei Silva and have him lose prior to the big fight, twice in the case of Silva. Dana, the UFC and Pride lost a lot of money on the failed Liddel vs. Silva card.

[wazzabi]

hopefully rampage can fight like his old self again. he needs that groove back to beat liddell again. he didn't look as polished as his pride days in his ufc debut, despite his KO win.

i wanna see rampage body slam liddell like he did to arona :D

[Pitfighter]

Honestly I woulda rooted for Chuck like 6 months ago cuz I really wanted to see Chuck avenge an unanswered loss heading into my fantasy match against Wanderlei Silva. But Silva's seems to be drained shot. I really don't mind the his loss to Cro-cop cuz he moved up in weight before he acclimated to it. My big problem is that Silva seemed to have sustained more damage than he let on.

This may get confusing but... I think the Silva's fight with Henderson shoulda been before his fight with Cro-cop. Had Silva fought Henderson and lost then I woulda definitely known he wasn't at Chuck's level. Had he won it woulda been a great warm-up with some good promotional potential since Dan's an American fighter.

But that never happened instead Silva lost to Cro-cop who seemed to have drained Silva shot IMO. I mean Cro-cop is a natural heavyweight IMO it was not a shock Silva was dropped. My surprise is that Pride let him take the fight knowing that there was money to be made in the fantasy match up against Chuck.

Oh well whatever... Fast Forward a few months. Silva's ready to get back on the promotional horse by fighting Dan Henderson. There's enuf history to generate legitimate interest but Silva is heavily favored by being a weight class above. OOPS! Henderson whips Silva. WHAT A WAR! as a fan I loved it cuz it was a great fight but part of me regrets the fact that Henderson's win now makes a undisputed light heavyweight title match less likely in the near future.

IMO Silva is shot and Liddell is racing against the clock before he is too old to fight. A 2nd and/or 3rd Liddell v. Rampage fight will be interesting but it won't consolidate the division like a Chuck vs. Silva fight. If Chuck wins against Rampage he might have little incentive to fight Henderson or whoever beats Henderson in the meantime cuz Chuck's is getting old.

On the other hand if Rampage won there would at least be calls for a rubber match between Chuck and Rampage. Regardless who would win they would be considered the #1 light heavyweight. By then Henderson would prove he was the real deal against Silva or other light heavyweights. Or Silva would win the his rubber match against Henderson and with that make it profitable for a UFC/Pride showdown, especially since Silva has history w/ Rampage.

For the sake of the sport I kinda want Rampage to win because he's younger and has more room to grow. If he wins and because he has more years to build on he could consolidate the light heavyweight division.

[tekkengod]

IMO Silva is shot and Liddell is racing against the clock before he is too old to fight.

If Chuck wins against Rampage he might have little incentive to fight Henderson or whoever beats Henderson in the meantime cuz Chuck's is getting old.

chucks what, bout 37?

Randys 43. he looks pretty polished, and did just fine. I bet chucks got a few more years left in him.

[pauli]

chuck's got a lot of injuries and lives pretty hard, though.

personally, i think he's really just waiting for an opponent who makes him step it up. that's why he keeps talking about fedor and cro cop - from what i can tell, he'd rather lose the best fight of his life than not have it.

maybe rampage can push him hard enough. we'll see. if he brings it... could be spectacular.

i think it's more likely that chuck will fight shogun than that he'll fight wandy - something is seriously wrong with wandy, and he has to fix that before we can see the fight we want to see. shogun's on a roll, though, and doesn't fall into the "205lb wrestler" category like everybody else chuck has fought for... years.

[Apotheosis]

chucks what, bout 37?

Randys 43. he looks pretty polished, and did just fine. I bet chucks got a few more years left in him.

Yea but Randy lives a clean lifestyle, Chuck lives like a frat boy....

Anyways Rampage has signed a 4 fight contract(to replace his old one that had 1 fight left) so if he loses he will still have a chance to come back and if he wins he cant take the belt and leave...good news all around.

[Pitfighter]

chucks what, bout 37?

Randys 43. he looks pretty polished, and did just fine. I bet chucks got a few more years left in him.
Honestly I think comparing anyone to Couture is a mistake. Couture's a freak, most athletes burnout before 35, Couture's the EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.

Don't get me wrong Chuck's a beast. Just can't see him going on as long or as strong as Couture, if only cuz his fighting style is sustains more injuries. Trading punches is not the best way stave off sustained and cumulative damage from fighting.

[mrsumo]

Rampage saying he wanted a few warm up fights was nothing more than showing courtesy to Liddell and the UFC. There has been no downhill trend in his game and he is coming from pride, which is just a higher level of competition than the ufc offers. Liddell was pretty much destroyed in his last meeting with Jackson. And while I will agree with everyone that Liddell is a much stronger more complete fighter now than he was then, so is Jackson. It is indeed going to be a tough one to call, both are great, but I think the smart money is on Rampage. Should the Iceman get the win I will be far from dissapointed, but I won't be surprised if he loses.

[Ular Sawa]

I don't know. Chuck was totally dominated in his first fight with Randy and look what happened in the next two. He's an old school tough guy who's a great counter puncher with a good sprawl. All he needs is one good punch......

[Apotheosis]

I don't know. Chuck was totally dominated in his first fight with Randy and look what happened in the next two. He's an old school tough guy who's a great counter puncher with a good sprawl. All he needs is one good punch......


Absolutely however I think a lot of his knockouts come from his sprawl...meaning when his opponent goes for the takedown he just unloads on them.

Tito was actually getting the better of him on their feet when he wasn't going for the takedown or allowing himself to get backed into the fence...

[BigRed389]

Tito's not the only one who appeared to get the better of Chuck standing up.

Unfortunately, they all ate a right hand that knocks em out. His counterpunch right cross is MEAN.

[Apotheosis]

Absolutely true, he does have power in that right hand that can level the playing field...as well as his opponent

[Oversoul]

I don't know. Chuck was totally dominated in his first fight with Randy and look what happened in the next two. He's an old school tough guy who's a great counter puncher with a good sprawl. All he needs is one good punch......

Randy beat him by relying on the clinch. Chuck was able to avoid the clinch in the later fights. Rampage beat Chuck by being better at just about everything. He stuffed Chuck's takedown attempts. He controlled him on the ground. And he outstruck him on his feet. So yeah, he'll need to have improved a lot if he's going to beat Rampage.

"One good punch" could work, just like it could work for almost anyone in almost any fight. :rolleyes:

[Faminedynasty]

Chuck will bang him.

[wazzabi]

Chuck will bang him.

not if rampage fought the same way he did the night he beat him.

[Gufbal1981]

Remember though, their first fight was in a ring. Chuck is a master at using the cage, plus he does really well with his antigrappling strategy. I'm not saying Rampage can't win or that Chuck is invincible, I just hope Dana White knows what he's doing here...

[Apotheosis]

Remember though, their first fight was in a ring. Chuck is a master at using the cage, plus he does really well with his antigrappling strategy. I'm not saying Rampage can't win or that Chuck is invincible, I just hope Dana White knows what he's doing here...

He does, he has a stacked 205 division now and can now afford to bring in "new" guys to fight Chuck....

As to his anti-grappling, it works but I'm not so sure Rampage is going to go for a takedown....if he watched the Tito-Chuck rematch then he knows that Tito actually did surprisingly well except when he went for the takedown...every time he did he ended up eating a flurry of punches.

[Gufbal1981]

He does, he has a stacked 205 division now and can now afford to bring in "new" guys to fight Chuck....

As to his anti-grappling, it works but I'm not so sure Rampage is going to go for a takedown....if he watched the Tito-Chuck rematch then he knows that Tito actually did surprisingly well except when he went for the takedown...every time he did he ended up eating a flurry of punches.

Honestly, you could see Tito's shots coming from across the cage. However, I hope Rampage does bang it out with Chuck. it would be more exciting that way.

[Apotheosis]

Honestly, you could see Tito's shots coming from across the cage. However, I hope Rampage does bang it out with Chuck. it would be more exciting that way.

Haha yea...his shots suck...

Even I could tell he was going to shoot a few seconds before he did, I imagine a guy as good as Chuck saw it coming almost before the fight started

[BigRed389]

Rampage has vicious slams and GnP.

I actually think getting to the clinch then taking that route would be the best gameplan for Rampage.

Even if Chuck got up from that, good chance he'd be dazed.

[Oversoul]

Remember though, their first fight was in a ring. Chuck is a master at using the cage, plus he does really well with his antigrappling strategy. I'm not saying Rampage can't win or that Chuck is invincible, I just hope Dana White knows what he's doing here...

If Rampage is still a better striker than Chuck, any "antigrappling" Chuck has won't matter. He'll be picked apart, get desperate, and maybe shoot himself, which probably won't work any better than it did in their last fight. Chuck's best chance is to use that counterpunching and be much better at it than before.

[Gufbal1981]

If Rampage is still a better striker than Chuck, any "antigrappling" Chuck has won't matter. He'll be picked apart, get desperate, and maybe shoot himself, which probably won't work any better than it did in their last fight. Chuck's best chance is to use that counterpunching and be much better at it than before.


Honestly, you can't tell if Rampage is the better striker. Due to the fact that his last figt was his best fight since he lost to Wandy, it's really hard to tell. Chuck's counterpunching is part of his anti grappling. He stays out of the clinch by throwing strikes. He has grown as a fighter since their last fight and has been on a winning streak, defending his title against many worthy opponents. Rampage is a worthy opponent for Chuck. This fight will be good and I could personally care less who wins because I like both fighters.

[Oversoul]

Honestly, you can't tell if Rampage is the better striker.

I could in their last fight. But things might have changed...

[Gufbal1981]

I could in their last fight. But things might have changed...

That fight between them was a long time ago. Chuck has won every fight since then, while Rampage lost to Wandy twice, and has gone up and has won by decision, except for his first fight in the UFC. Chuck finishes fights. Excluding the last UFC, when was the last time Rampsge got a KO? Arona? He didn't KO Chuck...they threw in the towel because Chuck was injured before the fight. Rampage's victory was ruled a TKO but it wasn't that at all. They have both grown as fighters and I like them both, so we shall just see in May.

[Oversoul]

That fight between them was a long time ago. Chuck has won every fight since then, while Rampage lost to Wandy twice, and has gone up and has won by decision, except for his first fight in the UFC. Chuck finishes fights. Excluding the last UFC, when was the last time Rampsge got a KO? Arona? He didn't KO Chuck...they threw in the towel because Chuck was injured before the fight. Rampage's victory was ruled a TKO but it wasn't that at all. They have both grown as fighters and I like them both, so we shall just see in May.

Like you said, Liddell's been doing well. No need to make excuses for him. And yeah, Rampage lost to Silva twice. So what?

[BigRed389]

Both times Rampage lost to Wandy(and the time he lost to Shogun), it was by knees to the head.

The consensus is that the Thai clinch was his weakness.

If you see them when they're simply trading punches, Rampage was doing very well, blocking/moving very well. In fact, in their 2nd fight, at the end of the 1st round, Rampage had Wandy in serious trouble...near stoppage really.

Looked like he gassed in that effort as he wasn't as agile in the 2nd rd, which is when he got caught, then for some reason wasn't able to move out as well as he did before, letting Silva close to the clinch to deliver knees.

Point being...the way Silva's striking beat Rampage is not the way Liddell fights, so it's not that easy to call.

[Gufbal1981]

Like you said, Liddell's been doing well. No need to make excuses for him. And yeah, Rampage lost to Silva twice. So what?

I'm not making excuses for Liddell. All I'm saying is that it's hard to say Rampage is the better striker. From my recollection he has never actually KO'ed, except for Arona , and Arona says it was because of a headbutt, and his recent win over Marvin Eastman. Liddell KO's. If you read the beginning of my argument, I specifically stated that it's hard to tell who the better striker is because of the facts I've mentioned. I'm not saying the Rampage is going to lose to Liddell. Rampage hasn't been the same fighter since his second loss to Wandy, and quite honestly, is barely getting his groove back with his recent KO. Personally, I think Rampage was right in saying he needs a couple more fights under his belt before he takes on Chuck. He needs to get his groove back, so to speak.

[Sever]

On a technical level, I'd say Rampage is the superior striker, but Liddell undoubtedly has that one-punch KO advantage
Word is that Rampage has been working up at Legends with Randy Couture, Bas Rutten and former K-1 champ Remy Bonjasky. He'll be well-trained by fight time and it's good that he's finally gotten a real camp (after the second Silva fight up to the Eastman fight, he was training at a bunch of different places with people of a lower ability than him - remember he asked for sparring partners after the Eastman bout?) but there's training and there's fighting. I'd rather they'd waited and let him have his warm up bouts before this fight, but the UFC are probably hoping for the big-money rubber-match
This one could go either way, I'd rather see Rampage take it, just to shake the division up a bit, but it's not a sure bet by any stretch

[callsignfuzzy]

No matter which way this fight goes, I don't think anyone will be surprised who wins it... unless Chuck happens to win it with a heel hook or Jackson wins with a jump spin kick. But yeah, very competitive matchup, and each man has the tools to beat the other.

I think for Jackson to win, he's got to make Chuck come to him, block some of the loopier punches, and counterstrike. I'm not sure he can get a KO, but he can certainly make Chuck look foolish. I hope he's up at Legends with guys that can train him to be his best, but I'd still like to see a few fights behind him before this match. Well, wish in one hand and crap in the other, as they say...

I think Chuck's weakness in their first fight was a lack of conditioning. If he can set the pace and work on his cardio, he's got the best chance. If he wins I see it being similar to his wins over Couture: Rampage tries to close the distance and ends up eating a counterpunch.

I'm pulling for Chuck, 'cause I'm a bit of a fan, but a Rampage win might be better for the sport/division.

[Oversoul]

I'm not making excuses for Liddell. All I'm saying is that it's hard to say Rampage is the better striker.

I said he WAS the better striker when they fought the first time. And it's not hard to say.

I do think Liddell has improved more. But I don't like him, so I'm pulling for Rampage.

[Gufbal1981]

I said he WAS the better striker when they fought the first time. And it's not hard to say.

I do think Liddell has improved more. But I don't like him, so I'm pulling for Rampage.

LOL. Alrighty then. I like both of them, so I don't know who to route for.

[wazzabi]

rumor says Tito is fighting Rashad on UFC 71

[Gufbal1981]

rumor says Tito is fighting Rashad on UFC 71

That would be interesting. I heard Tito is being sued for breach of contract. Any validity to this?

[Faminedynasty]

not if rampage fought the same way he did the night he beat him.
No, I'd say regardless. But we shall see.

[Korpy]

chucks what, bout 37?

Randys 43. he looks pretty polished, and did just fine. I bet chucks got a few more years left in him.

Chuck isn't Rnady. Randy is a freak of nature. Chuck's got too much of a beer gut, and obviously partakes in drugs.

[Linguo]

Jesus took Rampage's soul.

[pauli]

Chuck isn't Randy.correct. Randy is a freak of nature.yes (not that the rest of the very top guys aren't) Chuck's got too much of a beer guthave you seen him at weigh ins? and obviously partakes in drugs....what?

[Apotheosis]

have you seen him at weigh ins? ...

When he is massively dehydrated?

Chuck is a great fighter, perhaps the best in the world at his weight class....but let's not confuse him with being a guy who takes great care of his body...

what?

I guess he does if you include alcohol...

I see Randy as unique in his ability to maintain his ability at his age, I just don't think Chuck puts as much time into maintaining his body...

Not to mention Chuck relies more on insane reflexes(his counter punches) whil Randy has a more "slow" style

[Sever]

Chuck isn't Rnady. Randy is a freak of nature. Chuck's got too much of a beergut, and obviously partakes in drugs.If you're going to throw around accusations like that, how about throwing around some evidence? And no, unsubstantiated posts on Sherdog aren't a valid source

[slipthejab]

Chuck isn't Rnady. Randy is a freak of nature. Chuck's got too much of a beer gut, and obviously partakes in drugs.

Korpy korpy korpy,
You're talking out of your depth here.

[BigRed389]

It's certainly true if you consider heavy alcohol use to be partaking in drugs.

He's a common sight in the bars around where he trains.

Obviously, not as bad as being a meth-head, but it's certainly not "taking care of your body."
I mean Couture's been quoted as saying he eats mostly fresh greens. Ugh.

I find the GSP approach to be better...if only I could train that much a day.

[Apotheosis]

It's certainly true if you consider heavy alcohol use to be partaking in drugs.

He's a common sight in the bars around where he trains.

Obviously, not as bad as being a meth-head, but it's certainly not "taking care of your body."
I mean Couture's been quoted as saying he eats mostly fresh greens. Ugh.

I find the GSP approach to be better...if only I could train that much a day.

One glass of red wine a day...

GSP is awesome

[Pitfighter]

One glass of red wine a day...

GSP is awesome
How bout a box of red wine a day? :D

Yes GSP is awesome! even though he lost to Matt Serra :cry:

[wazzabi]

How bout a box of red wine a day? :D

Yes GSP is awesome! even though he lost to Matt Serra :cry:

nobody expected Serra to strike so well. he hasn't had a knockout in his career, EVER, at least before this. if he can continue to strike the way he did, with that kind of punching power, he'll be a force in the WW division. we'll have to see if this was a fluke or not.

[Infrazael]

OMG, THE MMA GUYS ARE USING "ANTI-GRAPPLING."

I thought that was a term purely used for Wing Chun? :rolleyes:

Just playing. :D

But "Chuck has good anti-grappling" is still friggin hilarious to say . . . hahahaha that made my day. :)

[RandomTriangle]

i'd bet a lot of money on Chuck...

this time he doesn't have to fight with a a quad injury...

[Doublejab]

Chuck isn't Rnady. Randy is a freak of nature. Chuck's got too much of a beer gut, and obviously partakes in drugs.

A beer gut? When have you ever seen Chuck run out of gas? He insanely fit. He probably just doesn't do the heavy weights/steroids combination that many fighters do and so he doesn't look like a body builder. Compare his strikes with Ken Shamrocks, Kevin Randlemans or Mark Coleman (all decent strikers BTW) and see if their muscles help them punch better. Chucks a better striker than any of them, beer gut and all.

If you think Chuck has a beer gut what of Fedor? Best MMAist (IMHO) ever and definitely carrying more body fat than alot of the fighters he's demolished? Sorry for the rant but I hate how MMA fighters are sometimes judged as if they are body builders.

Oh and if you have ANY evidence that Chuck does drugs I'd like to see it. And not that recent video, he had a chest infection at the time and was obviously knackered. With the amount of blood tests carried out and the recent suspention of Randleman I seriously doubt if Chucks stupid enough to be using recriational drugs!

[Doublejab]

Oh, and in terms of someone who takes care of his body. He's 37 and still fighting at this level and still winning convincingly. Not many fighters have done that. God, he's being talked about as if he's Tank Abbot....now THERE's a guy who hasn't taken care of his body! He's only four years older than Chuck.

[Apotheosis]

Oh, and in terms of someone who takes care of his body. He's 37 and still fighting at this level and still winning convincingly. Not many fighters have done that. God, he's being talked about as if he's Tank Abbot....now THERE's a guy who hasn't taken care of his body! He's only four years older than Chuck.

No one is questioning Chuck's ability, he is a great fighter.

However his lifestyle is not the best for an aging athlete, he lives fast and hard almost as if he was still a college student.

His fighting style is based upon great reflexes and punching speed, reflexes and speed often are the first things to go in a great fighter...

He is NOT "built" to be a great "old" fighter like Couture, which is fine....just don't expect him to be doing great in his mid 40's without some very serious lifestyle and fighting style changes which I just do not see him doing

[Doublejab]

No one is questioning Chuck's ability, he is a great fighter.

However his lifestyle is not the best for an aging athlete, he lives fast and hard almost as if he was still a college student.

His fighting style is based upon great reflexes and punching speed, reflexes and speed often are the first things to go in a great fighter...

He is NOT "built" to be a great "old" fighter like Couture, which is fine....just don't expect him to be doing great in his mid 40's without some very serious lifestyle and fighting style changes which I just do not see him doing

It was basically the 'beer gut' comment I was refering to. Chuck's lifestyle is not the greatest I grant you but it can't be THAT bad or he wouldn't be able to do what he does at the age of 37.

Totally agree with you about him not fighting into his mid 40s but I think Randy is one of a kind really. And as you say his method of fighting is not SO dependent on speed and relflexs as Chucks. You see the same thing with boxers, Lewis was at his absolute best in his late 30s but boxers like Naz or Tyson certanly weren't!

[Apotheosis]

It was basically the 'beer gut' comment I was refering to. Chuck's lifestyle is not the greatest I grant you but it can't be THAT bad or he wouldn't be able to do what he does at the age of 37.

It is pretty bad, he parties like a frat boy but he is just so good his lifestyle/age has yet to catch up to him.


Totally agree with you about him not fighting into his mid 40s but I think Randy is one of a kind really. And as you say his method of fighting is not SO dependent on speed and relflexs as Chucks. You see the same thing with boxers, Lewis was at his absolute best in his late 30s but boxers like Naz or Tyson certanly weren't!

Yea, basically Randy is the turtle to Chucks rabbit

[Pitfighter]

nobody expected Serra to strike so well. he hasn't had a knockout in his career, EVER, at least before this. if he can continue to strike the way he did, with that kind of punching power, he'll be a force in the WW division. we'll have to see if this was a fluke or not.
I haven't seen him fight too much but I gotta say I do think it's a fluke. BUT if he fights with Matt Hughes next I gotta root for him cuz I can't stand Matt Hughes.

[Apotheosis]

The more I think about it the more I think Rampage can win if he fights "smart"...

If you watch most of Chuck's fights people get in trouble in 2 areas

A. When they go for the takedown
B. When they stop moving and let Chuck unload a flurry

If a fighter uses his jab, circles(preferably away from Chucks overhand right) and doesn't go for the takedown or let Chuck get in close then Chuck will have limited options...he will either have to accept getting jabbed all night or he will have to bring his hands up to cover his face and change his leg stance to accommodate a need for better movement.

This is a win-win for his opposition, they can either choose to takedown the now vulnerable Chuck or they can keep jabbing taking advantage of Chuck's unfamiliarity with a more "traditional" method of striking.

Obviously it isn't a surefire strategy as Chuck does possess a seemingly unlimited amount of KO power which allows him to get jabbed for 24 minute and still win with a knockout.

If Rampage cannot beat him, I honestly think Machida can...he seems tailor made to beat Chuck with his insane reflexes and preference to counter punch his opponent using incredibly quick jabs and crosses...Chuck would have a very difficult time catching him without eating dozens of punches, I think Machida would pick him apart especially since he seems to possess the ability to ignore the "aura" of Liddell unlike a guy like Babalu who seems to completely loose his composure when fighting Chuck

[Apotheosis]

ESPNEWS will be airing the weigh-ins live and will have interviews for UFC 71...

Source (http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=7569)

[Tom O'Brien]

Apotheosis,
Thanks for the heads up - I moved this over.
So far I have nothing to brag about but I am going to try again:
Date Time: 05/26/2007 7pm PT/10pm ET
Event Type: PPV Live
Location: MGM Grand Garden Arena, Nevada

Chuck Liddell Vs. Quinton Jackson - Chuck
Terry Martin Vs. Ivan Salaverry - Martin
Josh Burkman Vs. Karo Parisyan - Karo
Houston Alexander Vs. Keith Jardine - Kieth
Kalib Starnes Vs. Chris Leben - Chris
Thiago Silva Vs. James Irvin - Irvin
Sean Salmon Vs. Alan Belcher - Belcher
Jeremy Stephens Vs. Din Thomas - Din
Carmelo Marrero Vs. Wilson Gouveia - Carmelo
Thanks,
Sensei Tom

[BGile]

Apotheosis you mention
This is a win-win for his opposition, they can either choose to takedown the now vulnerable Chuck or they can keep jabbing taking advantage of Chuck's unfamiliarity with a more "traditional" method of striking.
*****************

Why do you believe he is more vulnerable?
He is a BJJ guy and was a good wrestler, he prefers the stand up, and yes he has lost to ground and pound.

But he is a good fighter, maybe he will be beat.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=C'est+la+vie

Regards,
Gary

[Sever]

Randy's picking Jackson in this fight according to this article (http://sports.bostonherald.com/ufc/view.bg?articleid=1002169). Not surprising considering he's training with Jackson, but the man knows the game.
The way things are going with the upsets right now and the way the buzz is heading, I'm going to pick Rampage by TKO in the 4th. It's still not a sure bet, but the voices tell me that's what's going to happen

[Apotheosis]

Why do you believe he is more vulnerable?
He is a BJJ guy and was a good wrestler, he prefers the stand up, and yes he has lost to ground and pound.


I'm not going to say he is going to be a pushover, he is obviously a great fighter.My point however is that by jabbing and then moving you will take him out of his specialty and force him to adapt to a style of fighting that he isn't as comfortable with.

That certainly wouldn't guarantee a win, but it is a much better strategy than going directly for the takedown or trading punches with him.

Force him to change his footwork so he can keep up with your speed, change his hands so they can protect his face...makes him much more vulnerable to a takedown than when he is in his traditional stance which has his legs spread and his hands down just waiting to defend the takedown.

Randy's picking Jackson in this fight according to this article (http://sports.bostonherald.com/ufc/view.bg?articleid=1002169). Not surprising considering he's training with Jackson, but the man knows the game.
The way things are going with the upsets right now and the way the buzz is heading, I'm going to pick Rampage by TKO in the 4th. It's still not a sure bet, but the voices tell me that's what's going to happen

I'm not going to pick against Randy, he seems to be on a roll lately...I think Rampage will win as well but with seemingly everyone expecting an upset it seems like it would almost be expected to have one..Which means that the real upset would be if Chuck wins, which is very odd considering he is on such a roll and seems invincible.

[BGile]

I have respect for all of um, tough guys, I especially like Randy. If he is working with Jackson and feels he will win, that just might happen.

Chucks life style is not the best to be fighting and he should pull the pin and have fun training after this one. Win or lose. MHO

What about R. Evans will he be in consideration at all, you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Evans

Gary

[Apotheosis]

Rashad is good, but I'm not sure he could take down Chuck and I think Rampage would be to strong for him.

Tito should be a good test though.

[Sever]

I think Rampage will win as well but with seemingly everyone expecting an upset it seems like it would almost be expected to have one..Which means that the real upset would be if Chuck wins, which is very odd considering he is on such a roll and seems invincible.This is certainly a strange situation with regards to who gets the "upset" in that - on paper at least - this fight is very close and tough to call. By definition, it'd be called an upset because the odds favour Liddell as does the level of his activity, consistency of training camp and the venue, even though Rampage already has a win over him and a lot of the online fans are picking Jackson
Personally, whoever wins, I won't call it an upset unless it ends inside the first minute from either side - I'm convinced this one's going to be a war

[Apotheosis]

It should be a war, Rampage has a good chin and he is pretty good at eluding punches.

I wish I knew his gameplan, he will win or lose depending on how he and the guys he trains with decide to fight Chuck

[Sever]

I think the gameplan will probably be the same as last time. Liddell's not really changed his style that much, he's just gotten better at it. It'll probably centre around the crazy monkey defence he used so well last time and against Wandy to block the loopy hooks and counter with straight punches, make him hurt a bit in the standup, possibly tire him out a bit in that area, then clinch, slam, GnP him.
Liddell's going to have a much larger edge when it comes to avoiding the ground this time - he's got a cage to hold onto and a crowd that will boo so much every time it hits the ground that it'll probably get stood up much quicker than the Pride fight did, but I still think Rampage takes it. Liddell probably won't drop him with a single shot, will have a hard time scoring a stoppage-inducing flurry since Rampage is very hard to hit and there's always that question mark over his cardio, though Rampage could still be suffering from lots of ring rust. I'm not putting money on this one

[Gufbal1981]

I wish Chuck luck with ko'ing Rampage. The man has a head of steal.

[Oversoul]

I wish Chuck luck with ko'ing Rampage. The man has a head of steal.

Then what are Wanderlei Silva's knees made out of?

[Doublejab]

Then what are Wanderlei Silva's knees made out of?

Well whatever they're made of Wandy had to use an awful lot of them to put Jackson away!

I've never seen either knocked clean out, both can take a huge amount of punishment. Very hard fight to call but given recent form I have to say I fancy Chuck's chances overall.

[Gufbal1981]

Then what are Wanderlei Silva's knees made out of?

Not sure there...but, he's got gnarly knees.

[Apotheosis]

I think the gameplan will probably be the same as last time. Liddell's not really changed his style that much, he's just gotten better at it. It'll probably centre around the crazy monkey defence he used so well last time and against Wandy to block the loopy hooks and counter with straight punches, make him hurt a bit in the standup, possibly tire him out a bit in that area, then clinch, slam, GnP him.
Liddell's going to have a much larger edge when it comes to avoiding the ground this time - he's got a cage to hold onto and a crowd that will boo so much every time it hits the ground that it'll probably get stood up much quicker than the Pride fight did, but I still think Rampage takes it. Liddell probably won't drop him with a single shot, will have a hard time scoring a stoppage-inducing flurry since Rampage is very hard to hit and there's always that question mark over his cardio, though Rampage could still be suffering from lots of ring rust. I'm not putting money on this one


I just hope he doesn't get "fooled" into trying to trade with Chuck, he should pick him apart and make Chuck miss.

I wouldn't mind if Rampage only used jabs the entire first round...

[BigRed389]

I think the gameplan will probably be the same as last time. Liddell's not really changed his style that much, he's just gotten better at it. It'll probably centre around the crazy monkey defence he used so well last time and against Wandy to block the loopy hooks and counter with straight punches, make him hurt a bit in the standup, possibly tire him out a bit in that area, then clinch, slam, GnP him.
Liddell's going to have a much larger edge when it comes to avoiding the ground this time - he's got a cage to hold onto and a crowd that will boo so much every time it hits the ground that it'll probably get stood up much quicker than the Pride fight did, but I still think Rampage takes it. Liddell probably won't drop him with a single shot, will have a hard time scoring a stoppage-inducing flurry since Rampage is very hard to hit and there's always that question mark over his cardio, though Rampage could still be suffering from lots of ring rust. I'm not putting money on this one

Completely agree...the only thing Rampage has proven to be vulnerable to has been potentially gassing(2nd Wand fight) and a good Thai clinch+knees.

Neither are tools that Liddell are legendary for so...yeah. Just gonna have to see how this one goes.

[Oversoul]

Completely agree...the only thing Rampage has proven to be vulnerable to has been potentially gassing(2nd Wand fight) and a good Thai clinch+knees.

He seemed pretty potentially vulnerable against Shogun and also against Sakuraba, although it's a little bit amazing that Sakuraba was able to wade through those slams like he did.

Also he looked pretty vulnerable after Arona knocked him out with those heels to the head.

[Humanpunchbag]

He seemed pretty potentially vulnerable against Shogun and also against Sakuraba, although it's a little bit amazing that Sakuraba was able to wade through those slams like he did.

Also he looked pretty vulnerable after Arona knocked him out with those heels to the head.


These days MMA is wild and unpredictable. Chuck Liddell has gotten a lot better since 2003, he has improved all aspects of his game. Rampage has been defeated by smarter more technical opponents, they could weather his onslaught untill he ran out of gas. If rampage tries to slam Chuck, he could seriously regret it.

[shaolinmonkmark]

#1) Chuck avoids Rampage's takedown's and hits his punches.
Chuck will win
#2) If, and i do mean IF, IF Rampage can remain Technical, and not try to just go ape s**it on Chuck, but rather takes his time to take chuck apart, he will beat Chuck.
2 questions are flying through people's minds:
1) Is chuck in shape for this??? ( rumors are he is partying too much)
2) Has Rampage's Stamina and ring rust improved to peak levels now, since leaving PRIDE ???

I really cannot call this one, but i hope it's a good one!!!

[BigRed389]

#1) Chuck avoids Rampage's takedown's and hits his punches.
Chuck will win
#2) If, and i do mean IF, IF Rampage can remain Technical, and not try to just go ape s**it on Chuck, but rather takes his time to take chuck apart, he will beat Chuck.
2 questions are flying through people's minds:
1) Is chuck in shape for this??? ( rumors are he is partying too much)
2) Has Rampage's Stamina and ring rust improved to peak levels now, since leaving PRIDE ???

I really cannot call this one, but i hope it's a good one!!!

I agree...Rampage is the man who has Chuck's number stylistically, but it's really a question of whether or not he's up to the task mentally.

I doubt he'll pull a Babalu and start charging after Liddell...but then he doesn't exactly have Shogun's cardio. He gassed badly after the first round against Wand, which is what set him up for that vicious beating.

I think the off time could have been good for him mentally, to recover from the multiple Chute Boxe beatings, but he could have picked up some ring/cage rust along the way...

A lot of questions about him should get answered Saturday.

[littlebiggie]

I think Rampage Jackson still has the advantage in this match. He is younger and more aggressive.Check out this video of his awesome power>Rampage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO_WfqOUbZo)

Hopefully Rampage can fight like his old self again. He didn't look as polished as his pride days in his ufc debut, despite his KO win but I think he is still the man to beat.

[Apotheosis]

Just a heads up, UFC 71 will be get some pre-event coverage tonight at 6 P.M on Sportscenter and it is rumored that Chuck will be interviewed.

Source (http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=7645)

[Apotheosis]

So Chuck is going to be interviewed and they had Rogan on to "discuss" MMA along with a boxing promoter Lou Dibella..

Lou pulled out the "human cockfighting" card right off the bat which had Joe responding that boxing is just one aspect of fighting and thus the MMA is more exciting...he also pulled out the "boxing is being swallowed" card which is his version of "boxing is dying"...

Overall it was a positive 10 minutes(first thing showed on Sportscenter with Chuck's interview apparently being held for the end) for MMA and it really seems like the UFC is getting a HUGE boost for this upcoming event.

[Pitfighter]

Really I've been on the fence for this fight for a while. I really like both fighters but I don't really agree with most ppl's analyses of Chuck's weaknesses.

I think that Chuck moves well enough to offset so called "traditional" boxing. I think the angles he move at make it difficult to move forward against him. Despite the cases that ppl keep bringing up about the first Liddell v. Couture and the first Rampage v. Liddell, Liddell has managed to keep winning.

Couture wasn't able to repeat his performance. I'll go into why that happened in more detail later.

More recently Tito was jabbing well against Chuck but wasn't able to keep it up. At first glance it looked like Tito didn't realize his jab was working but honestly I think that Tito wasn't able to hit him and that's why Tito switched to shoots, Tito wasn't mixing it up to confuse Liddell. Tito was resorting to shoots cuz his jabs weren't finding their target.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/radio.asp?id=200

The best explanation in support of Chuck is actually from Couture's analysis. Couture actually picked Rampage but as Couture provided his analysis he basically explained how Chuck would win. Couture couldn't have said it better, (I certainly can't, I'm paraphrasing) "In the first fight I had with Chuck, Chuck planted his feet and I was apply pressure. In the next two fights Chuck started backing up in angles forcing me to chase him and get lured into counterpunches."

Couture picks Rampage cuz he trains with Rampage and Couture thinks Chuck has let his footwork slip. I think Couture is prejudiced because of this even though his technical analysis top notch I think his picks are influenced too much by feelings rather than rationale. Couture prolly wants to live vicariously through Rampage to beat Chuck.

Bottom line I don't think Chuck's footwork has been ignored. I think Rampage v. Liddell II will look more like Couture v. Liddell II then Rampage v. Liddell I which is what everyone else is comparing it to.

[Apotheosis]

I disagree as far as Tito goes...

He was consistently landing his jab and the only times he ran into trouble resulted for

A- Shooting from nearly the other side of the cage or

B- Standing still or backing into the cage and letting Chuck unload

I 100% think that the way to beat Chuck is to pick him apart with the jab from the beginning of the fight which will force him to either

A. Raise his hands to cover his face, bring his foot stance from really wide to closer together in an attempt to keep up with his opponents speed

or

B. Come forward and try to overwhelm you with his punches

Either of his options result in him being easier to take down, which plays right into his opponents hands. I'm not sure if I agree with Coutures' pressure theory that his opponent needs to get into Chuck's face in order to take him down.

Even if Rampage follows Couture's theory that you need to pressure Chuck, he still has a chance even though it tends to play into Chucks hands by letting him set his feet and drop bombs while you are coming in. Rampage has the speed and strength advantage on Chuck in my opinion and the quickness has to be close(moving towards Rampage based on age). Plus Rampage has power(something not many of Chucks opponents have had) as well as a great chin.

I'm definitely backing Rampage in this fight, I hope the whole event and especially the main event go great so the pre-fight hype on ESPN is "justified". I'm sure there are going to be new fans watching for the first time and I hope they get shown just how good MMA is.

Also, "rumor" is Dana has another big announcement for UFC 71...potential "announcements" are the signing of Shogun or Hendo...especially since Dana hinted in a pre-fight conference that the winner of Chuck-Rampage is going to be "challenged".

[Apotheosis]

Thiago Silva vs. James
Irvin---They come out, Irvin blows his knee out defending a takedown. They didn't show it so I bet it was nasty

Khalib Starnes vs. Chis Leben---
Round 1 Starnes had the better striking and took round one fairly easily, they clinched a few times but Starnes simply couldn't take him down until the end where he unleashed some vicious punches in the last 10 seconds to close out the round

Round 2 Starnes is picking Leben apart, lands a big punch and rocks Leben....he is doing good on his feet. Starnes needs to work on his cardio as he is gassing, Leben is as well which is good for Starnes.

Round 3 Leben comes out looking for the KO but Starnes does a great job avoiding the big punches. Leben landed a sick liver kick but Starnes pulled guard and Leben let him recover. Starnes swept him with a sick reversal and ended the fight from half guard having failed to mount much offense.

All 3 judges aware Starnes the victory and Leben's future with the UFC is now in jeapordy

3. Houston Alexander vs. Keith Jardine---Alexander is looking like a beast, Jardine lands two solid punches that stun Alexander for a few seconds. Alexander responds by pushing Jardine into the cage and unloading with some HUGE punches that knock Jardine out. Jardine was out a couple of times but recovered just in time for another huge punch to land sending him back out.

Alexander wins KO in 48 seconds, using some seriously nasty uppercuts and hooks...I'm pretty sure his first punch he landed hit Jardine up on the side of his head where most people wouldn't do much damage to him...Houston though has some insane power and it rocked Jardine.

Everyone without a doubt in the 205 lb division should be scared of this guys power.


4. Josh Burkman vs. Karo Parisyan----

Round 1-Both came out angry at one another, both swinging for the fences. Karo gets the better of Josh on his feet, lands a highlight reel judo throw and takes this round. He looks like his standup is much, much better.

Round 2- Karo is wearing Burkman out, looks like he has worked on his cardio after that loss to Diego. Karo consistently getting the better of the stand-up, Burkman is still throwing bombs but at a slower pace and Karo is picking him apart.

Round 3- Burkman knows he needs to finish Karo, comes out with everything he has but Karo is just to good for him on his feet. Burkman lands a good slam, Karo escapes and once on their feet Karo throws Burkman once more. Karo works for the kimura but gives it up so they can get back on their feet.

This fight was fast paced, Karo was just way to much for Burkman both grappling and striking.

Judges give Karo the unanimous decision


5. Terry Martin vs Ivan Salaverry---

Round 1- Martin is looking good at this weight, Salaverry lands some nice kicks. Martin takes him into the cage and tries for a slam but Ivan stays on his feet and is going for a Kimura. Martin isn't having that and slams/suplexes Ivan on his head following it up with hammerfists.

Martin wins by TKO in about 2 minutes, not sure if Ivan was out but he wasn't doing anything to defend himself so the stoppage was justified.

6. Din Thomas vs Jeremy Stephens----

Round 1 Din is looking good, gets a great takedown and takes Jeremy's back looking for the RNC. Stephens does a good job defending it and after 2 or 3 minutes he gets a reversal and threw some bombs from inside Din's guard.

Round 2- Jeremy has shaken the jitters, lands some nice punches but Din pulls guard. Din transitions to an armbar, awesome transition. Jeremy tries to slam out of it but Din cinches it in and Big John stops the fight. Jeremy claimed he didn't tap, which I think is true but as Din said (roughly) "I was about to break that arm and take it home with me".

Rough birthday present for the youngster turning 21 but it wasn't a bad showing.

7- Carmelo Marrero vs. Wilson Gouveia-

Round 1- Wilson comes out and lands some nasty lower leg kicks, the third brings Marrero to his knees and Wilson lands some nice punches eventually locking up a guillotine.

Gouveia wins via submission 3 minutes into round 1 and is looking like a potential contender

Chuck Liddell vs Quinton Jackson ---Rampage comes out looking intense, Chuck comes out looking relaxed.

First round- Rampage is stalking Chuck, Chuck is really moving around in this fight which has Rampage spreading his arms letting Chuck know this is a fight. Chuck comes in and goes for a body punch. Rampage is showing great defense and catches Chuck with a great right hook. Chuck is down and Rampage hits him with a nasty elbow and some sick punches forcing Big John to stop the fight.

The crowd is stunned, Chuck isn't sure what happened, Rampage and crew is exuberant

Rampage wins via KO 1:52 in round 1 as predicted(had to take some credit), He looks very impressive and I'm happy to see him finally get a belt.

Rampage tells the crowd that their breath stinks when they are booing, that he loves his fans, he is here to stay and would love to fight Chuck again.

The big announcement is Dan Henderson coming in to fight the champion, which is now Rampage. Rampage seems friendly, looks at Henderson's two belts and seems to want the Pride 205lb belt quite badly. Both exchange hugs, say they are friends, Rampage tries to get Dan to take his teeth out for the crowd but Dan refuses.

Looks like Chuck has to wait in line for a rematch, Henderson is getting it first.

Overall a great event, best I have seen from the UFC in a LONG time. It's going to take a lot to top this one.

[Oversoul]

I'd just like to say that I called all but one fight (Jardine/Alexander) correctly for this event. I rule.

[Gufbal1981]

This card had some good fights on it. I was very hesitant to watch at first, but it wasn't so bad. Poor Chuck...

[Sever]

BAM! Love it when I'm right :D Great fight by Rampage, a much earlier finish than I was anticipating too
Pretty good event from what I've seen so far
Remember people - spoiler tags keep me happy :)

[wazzabi]

i was so happy to see this happen. i bet money on rampage :D . i should have bet more, i knew he was gonna win. all those toons thought chuck was gonna murder rampage didn't know what they were talking about. i was really surpised that he did it in the 1st round though. in only 1:53 seconds. probably his fastest finish ever no? in his interview he said he was planning to knock him out in the 3rd round. but he exceeded his own expectations ;) .
chuck losing is a good thing, because it means we'll probably see chuck vs wanderlei, since they both have the exact same status as of now & will be able to formally go head to head in the pride vs ufc world series. rampage will be fighting hendo in that event since they're both the champions, but it won't be a pride vs ufc fight :cool:

[slipthejab]

Wow... just wow.

Some of the best punching in MMA ever in the bout between Chuck and Rampage.
Big bombs... swinging for the rafters... combos... everything.
Brutal ending. Absolutely freakin' brutal!!!:eek:

edit: oops sorry was referring to the Pride match where Liddel got absolutely blasted to bits.:p

But much of the same thing applied to the UFC 71 bout... only in a shorter time frame. :D

I'd swear that Rampage was taking lessons from Rodney King and his Crazy Monkey style of boxing. :p

[Sever]

I'd swear that Rampage was taking lessons from Rodney King and his Crazy Monkey style of boxing. :pHe did train with King a few years back, I believe before the Pride LWGP 2003 that Chuck Liddell entered as he felt it'd be a good way to counter Wanderlei's (and also Liddell's) big loopy hooks. Watch the first fight with Liddell and the second Wanderlei Silva fight to see him make a much more extensive use of the technique
Having just watched it yet again, I'm just struck by how beautiful Rampage's hook was - absolutely perfectly timed to counter Liddell's body shot, loads of power, bang on point. You can't say anything bad about that shot (unless you had money on Liddell, then obviously it's a lucky wild swing ;))

[wazzabi]

you're gonna love this...... :D
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/KingErrl/rampownage.jpg

[Oversoul]

The crazy monkey boxing guy is named Rodney King? I never knew that. I wonder if he gets a lot of jokes about it...

[wazzabi]

The crazy monkey boxing guy is named Rodney King? I never knew that. I wonder if he gets a lot of jokes about it...

ouch, lol. :eek:

[Apotheosis]

As far as Chuck vs Wandy goes, I'd rather Wandy took a year off as he announced. It could be the end of his career if he got knocked out 3 times in a row...especially considering how many concussions he must have racked up.

I'm not sure if Chuck can wait a year, he is old and getting older..his reflexes and quickness will start slowing down if they have not already done so.

[Pitfighter]

I am no longer making any predictions :mad: . I didn't call out all my predictions on this site but between me and my buddies I only got it right on the Karo Pariysian v. Josh Burkhman.

[Sever]

The crazy monkey boxing guy is named Rodney King? I never knew that. I wonder if he gets a lot of jokes about it...Not to his face he won't. He is one seriously bad dude :D

[Apotheosis]

Anyone think the Crazy Monkey style may contribute to Rampage's weakness to knees?

It seems to involve "crouching" over to prevent a smaller target with brings the head much close to knee level..

[Sever]

Anyone think the Crazy Monkey style may contribute to Rampage's weakness to knees?

It seems to involve "crouching" over to prevent a smaller target with brings the head much close to knee level..Not at all. His "weakness" against knees came more from working with a team that generally had pretty poor Thai clinch games and his going against fighters for whom the Thai clinch was their bread and butter. Considering the team he's got behind him right now, I'd be confident that weakness is being worked quite extensively
The idea behind Crazy Monkey isn't so much crouching and going to knee level as it is getting your arms up to defend the punches coming at you but being able to see the shots coming. It's also something most fighters that use it use exclusively at "long" punching range rather than "near" punching range which can cause openings for clinches. Although Rampage has been caught in clinches before, it's never been a catch from a Crazy Monkey defence, it's more been fighters like Wanderlei and Shogun rushing him and grabbing it

UFC71 has aired everywhere it's going to, feel free to kill the spoiler tags now

[slipthejab]

The crazy monkey boxing guy is named Rodney King? I never knew that. I wonder if he gets a lot of jokes about it...

Yeah I wondered about that before... but to be honest... I don't think S.Africans are too up on what goes on in LA. :D

[Tom O'Brien]

I was fortunate enough to have seen the bouts on a big screen. Chuck never saw that looping right hand that Rampage caught him with. He could not focus his eyes when he was trying to get up. He was on 'queer street' and it was a good stoppage.

Thanks,
Tom

[fire cobra]

Crazy monkey is nothing new guys come on! muay thai has it(as do a few of other arts i would like to bet) protect side of your head,protect the bridge of nose and eyes,protect the chin,muay thai has all of these methods with single and double arms covering,and whats more muay thai has all the rest of the stuff that goes with it,great elbows and defences,knee and defences,kicks and defences etc etc,mr king has packaged and labeled well ill give him that!. sorry im off topic a bit,if anyones still reading i thought ufc 71 had some cracking fights,it had to happen to chuck eventually with his loose style of fighting,came out of close range with hands down,walked to side without clearing arm range first(as i remember)but he will be back :)

[Incredible Bulk]

i had a bet on a first round ground n pound stoppage, rampage winning.

I collected :D

[narcsarge]

i had a bet on a first round ground n pound stoppage, rampage winning.

I collected :D

SCORE! Way to go big man! I just watched the clip on youtube. Pwned!

So all the Champs have been dethroned this year right? :confused:

[Sever]

So all the Champs have been dethroned this year right? :confused:It's just Sherk left with the UFC Lightweight belt, but he's not defended it yet. His next opponent's Hermes Franca which should be a very exciting fight

[Yohan]

UN-FREAKING-BELEIVABLE!!

I thought Rampage was going to win it, but what a spectacular bout!

GO PRIDE FIGHTERS!!

[BGile]

http://www.aolsportsblog.com/2007/05/28/report-too-much-partying-led-to-loss-for-chuck-liddell/

[Agutrot-]

I still think Chuck on his "A" game is the best 205er.

[Gufbal1981]

It's just Sherk left with the UFC Lightweight belt, but he's not defended it yet. His next opponent's Hermes Franca which should be a very exciting fight

What about Andersson Silva? He hasn't defended his title yet either.

[Sever]

What about Andersson Silva? He hasn't defended his title yet either.Yes he has, against Travis Luter. Having just checked it out, I was wrong - Silva didn't dethrone Franklin this year, it was October last year.
Silva's next defence will be against Nate Marquardt which has the makings of one hell of a battle and one that could very well go Marquardt's way

[Gufbal1981]

Yes he has, against Travis Luter. Having just checked it out, I was wrong - Silva didn't dethrone Franklin this year, it was October last year.
Silva's next defence will be against Nate Marquardt which has the makings of one hell of a battle and one that could very well go Marquardt's way

That wasn't a title defense. Lutter never made weight so they just made it a match.

[Sever]

Yeah, that's right. It's been a long day here ;) Though it was originally slated to be a title defence
He'll be defending on July 7th
To clarify: Silva AND Sherk have yet to defend their titles this year. I was mistaken

[Gufbal1981]

Yeah, that's right. It's bee a long day here ;) Though it was originally slated to be a title defence
He'll be defending on July 7th

Yeah...it was slated for that and Lutter was off by I think it was like 2 lbs. It's not like he didn't know the fight was coming and couldn't lose the weight properly. I'm interested to see Silva vs. Marquardt.

[Sever]

Yeah, Lutter royally screwed up on that one. Interestingly, according to Rogan, Silva had had anthroscopic surgery on both knees just a week and a half before that fight, explaining why his takedown defence was so crappy
I've got money on Marquardt already. He may not always be the most exciting fighter in the game, but he's very well rounded and I think he's got what it takes to decision Silva

[Gufbal1981]

Yeah, Lutter royally screwed up on that one. Interestingly, according to Rogan, Silva had had anthroscopic surgery on both knees just a week and a half before that fight, explaining why his takedown defence was so crappy
I've got money on Marquardt already. He may not always be the most exciting fighter in the game, but he's very well rounded and I think he's got what it takes to decision Silva

I agree. That's why I'm interested to see the fight.

[Apotheosis]

I have to agree with you Sever, Marqaurdt is gonna take the belt from Silva.

[wazzabi]

I still think Chuck on his "A" game is the best 205er.

i actually think he was on his "A" game that fight. he was just beat by a better fighter. he moved around just like he did in any other of his successful fights & worked the jab the same way. i mean news about chuck partying too much is nothing new. he might have even partied harder before he fought tito. look what happened? he beat him with a torn mcl.

[tekkengod]

that was his A game. problem was its been the same plan since the 1st rampage encounter. oh, and i'll call it now, Silva will keep the belt imo.

[Linguo]

Yeah, Lutter royally screwed up on that one. Interestingly, according to Rogan, Silva had had anthroscopic surgery on both knees just a week and a half before that fight, explaining why his takedown defence was so crappy
I've got money on Marquardt already. He may not always be the most exciting fighter in the game, but he's very well rounded and I think he's got what it takes to decision Silva

Personally, I don't buy the notion that Silva's knee surgery was the cause of his piss poor takedown defence. He's never really demonstrated great takedown defence in his other fights.

I'm thinking Marquardt takes this one too.

[wazzabi]

Personally, I don't buy the notion that Silva's knee surgery was the cause of his piss poor takedown defence. He's never really demonstrated great takedown defence in his other fights.

I'm thinking Marquardt takes this one too.

that's the thing with brazilian fighters. they're good on the ground, and those from chute boxe are good at ground and standing up. but they can't wrestle because brazil is not a "wrestling" country. hence why they keep getting taken down, and rely on their ground skills to stay alive.

[tekkengod]

Personally, I don't buy the notion that Silva's knee surgery was the cause of his piss poor takedown defence. He's never really demonstrated great takedown defence in his other fights.

surgery, you don't buy surgery as an excuse for poor performance....damn i'd hate for you to be my coach.

[Sever]

Personally, I don't buy the notion that Silva's knee surgery was the cause of his piss poor takedown defence. He's never really demonstrated great takedown defence in his other fights.

I'm thinking Marquardt takes this one too.It's never been what I'd describe as great, but it's usually a fair bit better than that. Watch his fight with Okami; it's not exactly up their with Liddell or Crocop's sprawl, but it's loads better than what he demonstrated against Luter

[Pitfighter]

i actually think he was on his "A" game that fight. he was just beat by a better fighter. he moved around just like he did in any other of his successful fights & worked the jab the same way. i mean news about chuck partying too much is nothing new. he might have even partied harder before he fought tito. look what happened? he beat him with a torn mcl.
I gotta agree. But I don't think Chuck's partying had much to do with anything, that's just gossip to me, hard for me to believe any champ especially one hungry for revenge would let partying distract them.

I just think Rampage has a fighting style that Chuck has no way of dealing with. Rampage's chin is hard, he has excellent takedowns and GnP (though he didn't have a chance to use it this time), he's got a right hand that hurts as much or more than Chuck's right, and he has a decent jab.

I just wish the fight lasted longer. I agree that the stop was called correctly except I think that championship fights should have a little more leeway.
Chuck prolly woulda been knockedout stone cold if it went on but I think he coulda got up, I've seen guys in worse positions rebound.

I know Chuck faded for a few moments but... in champ bouts I still think he shoulda been given more time to recover.

Don't get me wrong I'm also a Rampage Fan and personally I'm rooting for him in his next fight with Hendo.

[BGile]

I gotta agree. But I don't think Chuck's partying had much to do with anything, that's just gossip to me, hard for me to believe any champ especially one hungry for revenge would let partying distract them.

I just think Rampage has a fighting style that Chuck has no way of dealing with. Rampage's chin is hard, he has excellent takedowns and GnP (though he didn't have a chance to use it this time), he's got a right hand that hurts as much or more than Chuck's right, and he has a decent jab.

I just wish the fight lasted longer. I agree that the stop was called correctly except I think that championship fights should have a little more leeway.
Chuck prolly woulda been knockedout stone cold if it went on but I think he coulda got up, I've seen guys in worse positions rebound.

I know Chuck faded for a few moments but... in champ bouts I still think he shoulda been given more time to recover.

Don't get me wrong I'm also a Rampage Fan and personally I'm rooting for him in his next fight with Hendo.


I am in agreement with you, he would have gone into a guard position and it would have gone from there... Bad call. It is refreshing to see someone else who is not in aggrement with the call, two bad ones that night and Big John did them both.

I like John have talked to him and worked with his dad for years, but he is getting a little to involved to stop early. He is either concerned or being told to do it.

Either way, it is pretty obvious the other night that the two stops were premature.

Din Thomas did not win by submit...The guy did not submit, the ref stopped it.

Gary

[Atharel]

Liddell went clearly limp and was staggering after the fight was stopped. He was out.

If Din Thomas's opponent had not tapped for another second, Din could have taken the guy's forearm home in a basket. Not tapping out is not a legitimate defense against submissions, it's a BS gamble that your opponent is a nice enough guy to give up a locked in sub and risk losing rather than break your limb.

[BGile]

Liddell went clearly limp and was staggering after the fight was stopped. He was out.

If Din Thomas's opponent had not tapped for another second, Din could have taken the guy's forearm home in a basket. Not tapping out is not a legitimate defense against submissions, it's a BS gamble that your opponent is a nice enough guy to give up a locked in sub and risk losing rather than break your limb.


Those extra seconds can turn into minutes or even rounds. But the opinions of all are that, and if it was judged that badly in all rounds and not by the fighters KO'ing, it would be history very soon, I am inclined to believe.

[wazzabi]

chuck was KTFO. if you watch closely after he got up, he was saying "what happened?" chuck didn't even know what hit him.
that's how you know he was KTFO. it was right for Big John to stop it.

[pauli]

^^^

right hook to the jaw, flash knockout he falls down. he recovers enough to bring his knees up and defend for a few seconds, then the next strike lands and his legs straighten out as he goes limp. ktfo. he's back just as the ref saves him from brain damage, but isn't aware of what's going on. textbook good call.

as for din's armbar... the kid is lucky the ref didn't wait for him to tap. period.

[BGile]

chuck was KTFO. if you watch closely after he got up, he was saying "what happened?" chuck didn't even know what hit him.
that's how you know he was KTFO. it was right for Big John to stop it.


Yes many are saying he was out. So how long was he out for?

Many believe it was a good call.

I am just mentioning that the two calls that are suspect in my mind were both called by him (John) that evening. He needs to be less of a player and let the contestents do what they are being paid for. IMHO...

If you like the way that it was done, fine but I am just saying I'll never invest a dime into it again. Not a biggie for some. But for me I believe it is not quite correct. I wonder if Jackson believes he won, or was helped? Well that is a question he will evade LOL... :D

[pauli]

the referee is required to stop the fight if either fighter ceases to intelligently defend himself. chuck's good, but i'm relatively certain he's unable to intelligently defend himself when unconcious.

[Gufbal1981]

Yes many are saying he was out. So how long was he out for?

Many believe it was a good call.

I am just mentioning that the two calls that are suspect in my mind were both called by him (John) that evening. He needs to be less of a player and let the contestents do what they are being paid for. IMHO...

If you like the way that it was done, fine but I am just saying I'll never invest a dime into it again. Not a biggie for some. But for me I believe it is not quite correct. I wonder if Jackson believes he won, or was helped? Well that is a question he will evade LOL... :D

funny...normally everyone picks on Herb Dean and his controversial calls.

[Atharel]

Why would Jackson even consider the absurd notion that he was "helped" to win? Chuck was out. Completely limp. More blows were raining down. Elbows and punches to the face will not promote a recovery from unconsciousness, and that's all Chuck was going to be getting.

[BGile]

Why would Jackson even consider the absurd notion that he was "helped" to win? Chuck was out. Completely limp. More blows were raining down. Elbows and punches to the face will not promote a recovery from unconsciousness, and that's all Chuck was going to be getting.

Well from what I read he was, "recovered by the time John" decided to stop the fight. So much for your thought... It was a millisecond not a second that he was unconcious.

Rampage did not rain down a lot of blows nor elbows. That I saw anyway.

We can all speculate now but the truth of the matter is, if John had waited and not jumped in and observed for 2 more seconds the fight would have either gone on, or Rampage would have had a truly good win.

I recall one when Evans knocked out Salmon and it was still not called until it was obvious as to his state of conciousness.

[Apotheosis]

The only bad call I saw was the Salaverry vs Martin fight...

Martin clearly landed numerous blows to the back of the head...

[Atharel]

Salmon was rushed to the emergency room after the fight and could have taken severe brain damage.

Chuck was fortunately spared from that fate:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7918/quintonjacksonchuckliddys4.gif (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quintonjacksonchuckliddys4.gif)
http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/4250/4mvvevcjn8.gif (http://img484.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4mvvevcjn8.gif)

[BGile]

Atharel,
Thanks that is the best I have seen, I don't have that good of picture about the fights. One hit is all I see, if he was in that state that you are saying.

I appreciate your posting that. Now how do I go about copying that to my docs? I'll try in case you have given up on me :rolleyes:

Still it is not going to convince me, :ban:

Gary :D

[Oversoul]

I am in agreement with you, he would have gone into a guard position and it would have gone from there... Bad call. It is refreshing to see someone else who is not in aggrement with the call, two bad ones that night and Big John did them both.

I like John have talked to him and worked with his dad for years, but he is getting a little to involved to stop early. He is either concerned or being told to do it.

Either way, it is pretty obvious the other night that the two stops were premature.

Din Thomas did not win by submit...The guy did not submit, the ref stopped it.

Chuck was finished. It was pretty clear and he admitted it himself.

As far as Din Thomas' win...

Well, the ref is supposed to stop the fight if injury seems inevitable. Personally, I think it's a bad rule. If a fully conscious/aware fighter at that level can't get out of an armbar, he should be able to recognize it and tap. If he thinks he can still get out of it, he should be given the opportunity to do so. If he's enough of an idiot to get his arm broken because he refused to tap, he'll be injured for a while and there will be more room on cards for fighters that are not idiots. Also, not everyone is as susceptible to every submission as everyone else. There are some cases where fighters get screwed because the ref thought they'd had enough. Royler Gracie against Sakuraba comes to mind. I'd rather prevent situations like that than provide a safety net for fighters that refuse to submit when they should.

That said, he really didn't win by submission and the result should be ref stoppage.

[BGile]

That said, he really didn't win by submission and the result should be ref stoppage

**************************

Yes I agree, I believe I am closer to agreement than others seem to see.
I am just pointing out how easy it is to add a third equasion and not having the fight actually be handled on its own merits. I am wondering if CL would have liked to be given that extra 2 second's or not?

Not really something that can happen but maybe the next time it will not be stopped so fast? Or it might be LOL...


I should write John and bug him some. I'll say he is catching it by a few at work. :p

I'd like to add anyone who thinks CL was not in shape, just look at his back muscle's come into play, that was a good shot to the liver area, he was/is in very good shape. Different body types. That showed the good shape of QJ also, but CL made a mistake of not covering. Oh well..Life in the fast lane can be deadly.
Gary :D

[Oversoul]

Not really something that can happen but maybe the next time it will not be stopped so fast?

In there interests of safety, it should be. Fighters can choose when to tap out to an armbar, but they can't choose when the other guy will stop bashing their heads into the ground.

[Pitfighter]

In there interests of safety, it should be. Fighters can choose when to tap out to an armbar, but they can't choose when the other guy will stop bashing their heads into the ground.
I agree with this BUT I just think the refereeing in the UFC isn't as consistent as I want it.

Better example than Liddell v. Rampage II was Liddell v. Ortiz II. The first time Chuck had Ortiz down he was raining down punches down for about 2 min. and eventually Ortiz got up. In the second round he only landed a flurry of punches for a few seconds before the ref stopped the fight. I actually wouldn't have minded a stop during the first flurry but I've got issues with the second flurry cuz it was less severe than the first flurry.

Just saying that the refs shouldn't have to play it as safe because fighters in championship bouts should have more mettle than other contenders. I mean having refs give fighters more leeway in getting out of bad positions in champion bouts is based on the same logic to me as having five rounds instead of three. It's there to make fights more definitive.

I just judge everyone more harshly in championship bouts, judging, refing, even the fighters.

[BGile]

I agree with this BUT I just think the refereeing in the UFC isn't as consistent as I want it.

Better example than Liddell v. Rampage II was Liddell v. Ortiz II. The first time Chuck had Ortiz down he was raining down punches down for about 2 min. and eventually Ortiz got up. In the second round he only landed a flurry of punches for a few seconds before the ref stopped the fight. I actually wouldn't have minded a stop during the first flurry but I've got issues with the second flurry cuz it was less severe than the first flurry.

Just saying that the refs shouldn't have to play it as safe because fighters in championship bouts should have more mettle than other contenders. I mean having refs give fighters more leeway in getting out of bad positions in champion bouts is based on the same logic to me as having five rounds instead of three. It's there to make fights more definitive.

I just judge everyone more harshly in championship bouts, judging, refing, even the fighters.

;)

[Tom O'Brien]

Atharel,

Thanks for posting those clips of the KO. Chuck had absorbed 2 more right hands to the chin after he was down. You could see that he could not focus his eyes even several seconds after big John stopped it.
thanks again,
Sensei Tom