Time Travel

[Drealoth]

I recently finished reading A Brief History of Time, and I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on time travel. I wasn't sure what forum this should go into...but Donnie Darko sprung into my mind so I decided to post it here. Anyway, do YOU think that it's possible? Forwards? Backwards? Something else?

An interesting thought that I had: if time travel is possible, why haven't we travelled back in time from the future to now? Or have we....

[inacan]

I don't think time travel is possible, Dr. Stephen Hawking said, we could never create anything with enough energy to propel anything that is of relative size the necessary speed it requires to go into time travel. Besides casality is a pain.

[Jim]

I'm living proof that time travel is not possible (for me anyway). The reason I know this is that I promised myself that if the chance ever came up to travel back in time I'd make sure that that incident in grade 4 never happened.

[Greg-VT]

There was a documentry(sp?) on in ht UK last June.

It was about time travel. A scientist in the US (I think), had managed to send molicules back in time using circuling light.


I think that was it. Did anyone else see it?

[Drealoth]

I heard about it. Scientists managed to send a hydrogen atom through a substance, and have it exit before it entered...figure that one out!

[booksie_girl]

Sure time travel is possible. We travel from the past, into the present, and we're on a journey into the future. That's the only time-travel possible.

Seriously, if time travel is possible, or one day will be possible, then where are the people visiting from the future?

[tai-gip]

i read somewhere time is there to stop everything happening at once (though i dont believe that myself)
But i suppose you could look at it that dejavoo is a sort of time travel i dont know about everyone else but when i get it i sometimes know what is going to happen next ..
But as said that this is a universe of infinate possabilities so therefore it must be possible we just dont know how to do it yet

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I heard about it. Scientists managed to send a hydrogen atom through a substance, and have it exit before it entered...figure that one out!

Either it was a light pulse, or it was quantum tunneling and not time travel. They did manage to effectively send a light pulse back in time, unfortunately they also discovered that they couldn't send any information back with it.

As for time travel, one simple reason why its not possible.

The first person to develop it will want to patent it, guaranteed. Now think about this for a moment, they can travel to any moment in time. What patent number will the time machine have?

Patent no 1.

Since the first patent was not a time machine, we can probably say that its not possible

[tai-gip]

yes but they would have to patent it first silly and they only made it today

[LilBunnyRabbit]

yes but they would have to patent it first silly and they only made it today

Which is kind of irrelevant. They then travel backwards in time to the first minute that the first patent office opens. And patent their time machine. Either that or someone else with the idea does the same, then sues them for breach of patent.

[Kwajman]

Scientists have been able to slow light to almost a complete stop. There have been so many advances have been made in the last 100 years in science, imagine how many will be made in the next 100. My Grandmother, who is 98, talks with me about how the world has changed just in her lifetime. We cannot begin to know what will happen in the next 2-3 generations! Isn't it exciting? As a person in the medical field, imagine what we do, operate on babies before they are born, transplant practically any organ except a brain, perform surgeries that only a hundred years ago would have been unimaginable. That is what makes science exciting. We may or may not someday time travel, but just trying, just making the attempt, is what makes the endeavor worthwhile...

[tai-gip]

but isnt it illegal to use a time machine without paterning it ?
im sure its in the laws somewhere ...and im sure its against the geneva convention....

[hwarang]

i heard it's possible to time travel at a very basic level:

1. get a friend and synchronise your analog watches
2. start at one place in your city (pointX)
3. one of you (personA) walks to a place on the other side of the city (pointY)
4. the other one (personB) drives there (pointY)

when you both get to pointB, have a look at your watches

the theory goes, time stops at the speed of light and the closer your travelling speed is to the speed of light, time slows down proportionately...

the personB's watch (who drove to pointB) will now read a time before the time on personA watch, therefore personB has travelled back in time or personA has travelled forward in time...

...or i could have told it wrong and no-one is travelling anywhere in time...

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well, it depends, do you have watches accurate to billionths of a second? No one's actually travelling in time, its simply that time is moving faster for the person travelling slowly relative to the person travelling quickly.

[totalkayos]

i don't really agree with the patent thing. i know if i invented a time machine i would keep it a secrect and use it only for my own personal gains.

[Tireces]

I cant speak much on if time travel is possible or not, but if it is, I'd rather it stayed the hell out of human hands.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Okay, assumption 1: The lifespan of the universe is infinite, assuming that once its eventual heat-death occurs, a new big bang will happen.

Assumption 2: Technology in most societies will improve.

So, if a time machine is possible, there is an infinite amount of time for it to be built in. It doesn't even matter if humans build it, eventually, someday, some race will manage.

That race will be capable of travelling to any point in the history or future of the universe.

Assumption 3: No matter what the race, it will always have a variety of people, including those who look after the 'primitive' races.

So if just one member of one of these races goes back in time and finds another race, why wouldn't they share their time-travel with them? If not, how likely is it that not a single time-travel machine will be captured by the non-time travelling race?

By extension: eventually, all races anywhere in the universe will have time-travel if time travel is possible.

Conclusion: Since we do not have time travel, it is not possible.

[Tireces]

The thing with time as a dimension though, is what about all the other dimensions? What if you go back in time, but you go back in time to when the planet you travelled from is on the opposite end of its orbit? Woops! That'd be an awfully nasty bungle. Heck, what about other theories of the sun itself moving? What if you travel back to a time when where you are is actually where THE SUN was? Ouchie! Also, theres no predicting just how something like this would work. What if as you travelled there, all the little particles making you up had made their way into where they were at that time? And so really, youve simply killed yourself. Theres no telling what'd actually happen, is there?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Heck, what about other theories of the sun itself moving?

They're not theories. The sun does move. So does the galaxy we're in. And all the other galaxies.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Jim
I'm living proof that time travel is not possible (for me anyway). The reason I know this is that I promised myself that if the chance ever came up to travel back in time I'd make sure that that incident in grade 4 never happened.

Jim, your future self, told my future self you'd say that.
So I'm to tell you not to worry about it, as it turns out to be for the best in the long run. He also said it doesn't mean you are gay, so don't worry about that any more. :D

[Jim]

Ha! I knew it, you are from the future, Andrew Murray!

One thing I gotta know, do I still look good in the future? :D

[Drealoth]

Einstein's famous Twin's Paradox - http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/theoryof/relativity.html

[David]

Patents are only used to retain a commercial advantage from copycat rivals and are not required by any law.

Stephen Hawking is limited in his perceptions by his current-scientific frame of reference and I wouldn't get worked-up about any predictions of fact based on the facts known today. Such facts are always transitory, full to nth degree of exploitable exceptions.

According to quantum theory, all matter is only in the present for a fraction (infinitismal?) of it's existence, spending most of it darting from one end of the universe to the other at every conceivable 'time'.

Many new observations have been made and some of them will lead to innovation in directions unthought of today.

Why haven't future-people come back here to show us time-machines? Maybe they're vibrating out of phase with us, maybe they'll explode if they get in phase :) Loads of possible reasons for it; if someone could figure that out, they'd be halfway to building the device...

Rgds,
David

[KenpoDavid]

well y'all are thinking of a time machine as sortof like an automobile that you can get into and drive anywhere into the past, but it's more like a television receiver. Like the television from Willy Wonka. So once we figure out how to get one built then people from the future can come back to it. But today it isn't built yet so nobody can travel any further into the past than the day the recevier is built.

We don't have to worry about figuring out how to build the transmitter because somebody from the future can just tell us how to build that. (ooo my brain hurts after that one)

but who wants to go into the past anyway... BORING! been there, done that (by definition). Well, Ok, maybe I can figure who won the wong-lee fight, but other than that... SHOW ME THE FUTURE! And I'll change its past.

[morphus]

I love this subject, time travel is one of my favourite sci fi theory & fiction subjects.
As a child i would dream of traveling backwards or forwards in time.

[tai-gip]

if you look at life and time like a chemical reaction then there has to be some way to control the process... after all basicaly life is just reactions of atoms

[Jim]

well y'all are thinking of a time machine as sortof like an automobile
Nup, I was thinking of the Tardis! ;)

[Tireces]

Look at it this way. Theres far better things to waste our time researching scientifically than a time machine. Especially since (most) of us arent very accomplished physicists in the slightest.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

According to quantum theory, all matter is only in the present for a fraction (infinitismal?) of it's existence, spending most of it darting from one end of the universe to the other at every conceivable 'time'.

According to one of about a dozen reputable interpretations of quantum theory that is, and there are many other, less reputable ones. Since they all give the same results and there's no way to test them, extending the theory past them without finding which one is correct is somewhat useless.

[Megilar]

Hmm... it almost appears as though that alot of the people are focused on traveling to the past. I don't know about that ever happening (from my sources, you'd have to be traveling faster than light. and the only way to can get to the speed of light is to become light waves (or a related... thing)). However, traveling into the future is another matter.

Like someone said before with the car, the closer you are to the speed of light, the slower the molecules are moving on your... entire molecular mass, or whatever you have moving at that speed. People who have spent time in space orbiting earth are traveling far fast than people here on earth. So their time slows down. They've used atomic clocks (for those of you who don't know, they are clocks that use the pulse of an isotope of cesium, i believe, to tell time down to far more precise than billionths of a second) to measure this. When they returned to earth, they were a couple fractions of a second younger than everybody else.

If the following example were possible, we could travel far into the future. If you were to attain light speed, or very VERY close to it, and were to fly in your Millenium Falcon far out (couple light years, i think), turn around and fly back to earth, you'd still be the same age (42 years old when you start, traveled a lightyear there and a light year back, you'd be 44). However, everyone on the planet that you knew would pretty much be gone. I don't know the exact ratio, but your closely aged buddies would definatly be gone if you left at age 42.

And they've even done the atomic clock experiment above in an airplane. They match two clocks and have one stationary, have the other in the high speed plane, fly in the atmosphere... the stationary one was slightly ahead.

And then again, you could just leave California at 11 a.m. and arrive in Australia at 10 a.m. the same day... that's good enough time traveling for me. :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Like someone said before with the car, the closer you are to the speed of light, the slower the molecules are moving on your... entire molecular mass, or whatever you have moving at that speed.

Right result, slightly off on the reasoning though. But well done. A+ for effort.

[Darzeka]

Time travel is impossible.

First person to time travel travells back and does stuff. Where is then their present? how do they find a point in a fraction of a second to return.

Second person to time travel goes back before the first person and changes something. This erases the first time travellers presence and eventual existence. Second time traveller now can't time travel and thus the first traveller is able to travel again because the second can't stop, and so on ad infinitum.

Third traveller goes back further then fourth traveller even further, eventually time becomes so unstable it collapses in heap and completely random things happen everywhere.

How do you get back in time in the first place. do you transport back in time or do you rewind existence? how much energy do you need to rewind everything??

I just don't want time travel to be possible, if you are able to go back you can go forward. If someone ahead of us can go back we are already in the past and can't affect anything at all and must just sit back and watch time play itself out.

you can't change anything if you go back anyway, all you do is make what ever happened happen. For you to be alive and able to time travel a set of events happened, if they change then you can't travel, so if you go back you can't change what happened, creating your own erasure, and everything

[korutsuki]

so much discussion about time travel, i dont want to argue but there is a different dimension in this world, locked by time, I am not a very religoious person,but I read the Holy Quran and there many hidden verses about time and the universe, if u have to be too much clever to get those things!!
He who search for it!! gets it!! deidication is every thing!!

[nzric]

Time travel is based on travel at the speed of light, but mass increases proportionate to speed. It's impossible as even at fractions of the speed of light, the energy it would take to propel something with even a little mass would be huge (and increase the faster it went).

On the other hand, time travel does happen... If you split an electron and send the two pieces shooting in different directions, they will both be spinning in a certain way. Now, if you are able to control one of the halves and cause it to spin the other way, the other half will automatically change direction and start spinning that way, no matter where in the universe it is.

Theoretically nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but somehow the other half 'knows' instantly to change direction. You could say the message must be travelling forward in time to reach the other half at the same time, which is 'before' the fastest thing in the universe itself can reach it.

I'm dizzy.

[Ad McG]

Hmmmm


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by Darzeka
Time travel is impossible.

First person to time travel travells back and does stuff. Where is then their present? how do they find a point in a fraction of a second to return.


Been thinking about that for a while. Now, I'm not physicist (yet, planning to be), but my theory on time is that every possible thing that was ever to happen at any time, has already happened. We just *move* into those realities. Who's to say we can't move backwards? Maybe our ability to comprehend something like that is the only thing limiting us?

PL

EDIT: Oh, and it would be fairly simple to figure out where our planet was some years back. The Mayans made a calender hundreds of years forward, with no fancy gizmo's like we have now. It wouldn't be too hard to do the opposite.

[Tatsumaru]

very interesting thread, i saw a program abouut a year ago here in England about a scientist who claimed that he had proven time travel into the future was possible. It was not actual travel though, he could bend light in such a way that you could 'see' forward through time.

He said that there was a condition though, you could only look forward from the time the first machine was constructed, you could not look back from this point. People in the future could see you but could not see anything further back than this. This is why we do not get time travellers strolling around all over the place, they can only look, they cannot travel or physically touch. Even this was limited because we still have not built the first machine yet, so we would not see people from the future yet anyway. It was very very complicated but it made sense to me when i watched it, and i am not even a proper scientist (i am only doing A level physics).

[inanimate]

I don't think time travel is possible, since I find time is separate from space, it is simply the thing that makes things 'go' and there seems no logical reason why we would be able to mess around with it. Besides, if time travel is possible, surely we would have felt the consequences by now? Chances are someone accidently wiped out the universe, yet I'm still around (I think).
However, I have an unread copy of Brief History of Time lying on my shelf, so I'll talk again once I've read it :D

[freespirit]

there's one thing that every one assumes and its not bad but instead us travelling through time why not time travelling round us or even through us, all this physics seems to assume that time is the constant and we move but what if we are the constant and time moves. surely that makes more sense logically and laturally/scientifically and spiritually ? or you could go even further and say that everything will behave as we percieve it to behave ;-)

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

to me time travel is not possible. i somewhat wish it was for example when that boy hit me i wish i could go back in time and use my tkd training block his strike. thats weird me and my friend tamara were discussing time travel..interesting.

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

i have another thing to add to this... i just saw the butterfly affect yesterday and theres time travel when evan reads his journal's and goes back in time and corrects the past.

[KenpoDavid]

you cannot undo the condition of a person's soul.

you cannot unmix the cake batter.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Entropy increases, time travel would require it to decrease, to put KenpoDavid's post into nasty scientific language. :p

As he says, in order to travel backwards in time you would need to convert entropy directly into ordered motion, or other forms of energy. This is (as far as anyone knows or has been able to tell) impossible.

[Mo Lung]

Just a couple of things that sprang to mind.

1. Some people think that UFO sightings are actually not aliens at all, but future time tourists occasionally getting accidentally spotted.

2. The theory that we can never have enough energy to send mass back in time is absurd. Remember the old 386 computers? Then there was the first 1.0Gig processor, which was supposedly a ceiling that would never be breached? What are you sitting in front of now? And that was only in the space of a decade or so.

When the first automobiles were developed people suggested that humans could never travel faster than 20-30mph - they reckoned that any faster than that our chests would cave in under the pressure. Seems like a pretty hokey thing to say now, huh!

:)

[aikiwolfie]

Since all the matter in the universe is basicaly just energy which is flowing since the univers is expanding then time travel in some form must be possible since energy only flows through a complete circuit in which there is occasionly feed back. De ja vue?

[Knight_Errant]

Nope. Doesn't work like that, to the best of my knowledge.

[Ad McG]

Some fuel for the fire:

I can't remember where I read this but it was something at uni that said a lab have actually already sent something back in time. The sent out a beam of light (obviously this is incredibly simplified) and it got there .00000007 seconds before it was projected, or some number to that effect. Sorry for not stating sources or being accurate, but I just remember reading it in a science mag like nature or something.

[Knight_Errant]

I know. Did you read it in the new scientist? I saw that article too.

[Greg-VT]

I saw something like that on a television docu' while I was in the UK.

Some guy sent a partical (or something) into a chamber with circling beams of light. And yeah it got there before it was sent... or something..

[toothpaste100]

Anything is possible, at the quantum level time and gravity is massively distorted so why couldn't you apply this distortion on a massive scale. If you sat around for eternity, eventually you would turn green, be teleported back in time, fall through the floor or become your own father after winning the completely random quantum dice roll.

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by Adam McGuigan
Some fuel for the fire:

I can't remember where I read this but it was something at uni that said a lab have actually already sent something back in time. The sent out a beam of light (obviously this is incredibly simplified) and it got there .00000007 seconds before it was projected, or some number to that effect. Sorry for not stating sources or being accurate, but I just remember reading it in a science mag like nature or something.

Dunno if this is the same, but I heard they made something go faster than light, making it get somewhere faster than it started going. They took a light wave (I think) and stretched it out, so that the front part got to the reciever faster than the wave itself started out. Something like that.

PL

[Shaolin Dragon]

Apparently tachyon particles travel faster than light (although I can't remember if they have actually proved their existence).

[Shaolin Dragon]

As for temporal paradoxes (e.g. going back in time and killing your dad before you were born) the two main theories are that a) you wouldn't be able to change the past, that is something would interfere and stop you from doing it; or more likely b) you COULD change history but it would create a new future in the multiverse, so that your future would coexist as well.

[shuyun3]

Theoretically nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but somehow the other half 'knows' instantly to change direction. You could say the message must be travelling forward in time to reach the other half at the same time, which is 'before' the fastest thing in the universe itself can reach it.

Tachyons exist in a state constantly faster than the speed of light.

"Since it doesn't exist therefore it can never happen," is faulty logic.

Time as i see it is not linear. Take the Slider's (the One, Marvel Universe )point of view. I see it as branched off. Traveling vack in time may change a part of the time line and may create new ones so I don't believe in the collapse thing to the time space continuum thingee.

It can happen. But my question is why bother?

[shipto]

This is a hell of a subject but my 2p worth is it may be possible to travel into the future but could you get back again? I dont think so because past is quite simply past and has happened cant be changed in any way so whenever you arrived at your point in the future everything you came from will be past and history would record you disappeared with no explanation (maybe some theories which are correct but no definates) and so it would then not be possible to travel back again because it is past and cant be changed.

[Ad McG]

I know. Did you read it in the new scientist? I saw that article too.

Yeah I think I did. Have a look at the link I posted on page 3 if you're interested in the physics of it all, the videos are really cool.

[Rhineville]

Here it is folks, two hours of conversation with the smartest person I know led to this: (note, I forget how we agreed upon HOW t.t. was actually possible, but i do remember the effects!)

The theory is, there are infinite parrallel dimensions, representing the infinite possible outcomes of any event that has ever occured within the universe at any time. Anything that can happen DOES happen in a different dimension. It's kinda like a tree; once a new event has a new outcome, the timeline branches off, formulating a new dimension. There's a world out there where Jesus newer walked the earth, where Hitler won the war and one where huge insects push humanity to the brink of extinction. ANYTHING you can think of has happened (within reason).

With that said...

- once travel back through time is achieved, you arive back in time (duh) on the SAME timeline.

- If you decide to change something that happened within that timeline (eg: killed Napolean :woo: ) you're not exactly changing your future, only following the path of another dimension.

- to reach your "natural" timeline, you'll have to go back before you killed napolean, and THEN go to the future where you belong.

Anyone hear of this before? Am I missing something?

[Mo Lung]

Here it is folks, two hours of conversation with the smartest person I know led to this: (note, I forget how we agreed upon HOW t.t. was actually possible, but i do remember the effects!)

The theory is, there are infinite parrallel dimensions, representing the infinite possible outcomes of any event that has ever occured within the universe at any time. Anything that can happen DOES happen in a different dimension. It's kinda like a tree; once a new event has a new outcome, the timeline branches off, formulating a new dimension. There's a world out there where Jesus newer walked the earth, where Hitler won the war and one where huge insects push humanity to the brink of extinction. ANYTHING you can think of has happened (within reason).

With that said...

- once travel back through time is achieved, you arive back in time (duh) on the SAME timeline.

- If you decide to change something that happened within that timeline (eg: killed Napolean :woo: ) you're not exactly changing your future, only following the path of another dimension.

- to reach your "natural" timeline, you'll have to go back before you killed napolean, and THEN go to the future where you belong.

Anyone hear of this before? Am I missing something?
Hmmm. Fractals.

Jet Li even made a movie about it (a baaaaad one!) ;)

[palecricket1]

It is impossible. I've considered the thought for years and come to this one conclusion: Let's say in 5 years you go back in time to assissinate Hitler. Then Hitler would be have died whenever you killed him in the past and he would never have existed, which would mean there would be no motive to kill him in the future when you go back in time. Get it? it's confusing but logical. Furthermore I believe in souls, and then what of the future and past you? would it have a soul too? and then would there be a future and past God? in that case there would be an infinite number of souls and Gods, and that isn't so. Plus you'd have to find the direction time flows in, learn how to move in that direction, and then either move faster or slower than it. In our 3D world, finding that other dimension would be next to impossible.

[Gryphon Hall]

Man! I love the posts on this thread. Just one more way of showing why history has recorded that martial artists were frequently philosophers as well. However, I must respectfully and cordially disagree with the possibility of time travel at all.

The theory is, there are infinite parrallel dimensions, representing the infinite possible outcomes of any event that has ever occured within the universe at any time.
It can happen. But my question is why bother?
No, it cannot. There is just not enough energy in the universe. It cannot, it will not. Why? A law (not a theory, meaning it has been proven and now taken fro granted) of thermodynamics states: Energy and matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one to the other, and the number of times this can be done decreases. Wokay, so what does that mean? Time travel is termed time "travel" for a reason. It means you actually transport matter or any kind of particles associated with energy to another point in time.

Time travel to the future I can accept as remotely possible (show why later), but travel to the past, no. It would be like taking a "chunk" of matter or energy from the sum total of matter and energy of the universe as it is now, and suddenly somehow "squeeze" that into the past Universe (providing someone finds the energy to do that). That would send ripples that will affect everything, having that additional matter/energy into what is essentially a universe in equilibrium. And the Universe in time that it left will be left with a hole. It doesn't matter that some reasoning states that the matter/energy added in the past will bump everything forward to fill this hole; such bumping will destroy all time in between. Future travel is remotely possible (though that is a stretch, again, because of the energy considerations) because the hole left by the missing "chunk" will be filled again at some future date. But as I write this, I'm beginning to see that that too, is impossible.

I don't hold with the parallel universes thing either. I mean, consider: everytime you make a choice, another universe comes into being for the other choice? How about multiple options? Just how much energy is being spent for that? Think about it, one more additional sun if I decide not to take a job or if I take the job? That isn't even considering the number of options a person makes in just one day, and the number of people making those options. Yet, somehow, on all these "parallel" dimensions, we have very similar languages, fashions, etc. (or at least, as they are presented on TV).

If energy is somehow "available" for that sort of "branching" then shouldn't something as commonplace as "the branching" be evident enough for physicists to notice? Yet, they all state unequivocally that the number of conversions between matter to energy, vice versa or into each other is finite (though potentially great). For the same reason, we cannot say that the matter on all those parallel universes are actually the same matter or energy, for it is also a given that "Matter/energy cannot occupy to places at one time".

Let's face it. Parallel dimensions is merely an intriguing and interesting plot device for stories. It has no basis in fact. If any scientist has discovered that time travel is possible, let him prove it by showing us calculations that make sense even with the weight of known physical laws and theories, not by first assuming that those same laws are arbitrary.

[Mwabukabuti]

Hey whats up the that whole hole thingy (didnt follow that);)

Time travel to the past is definately not possible. I can say that with absolute certainty.

Time travel to the future, however, is a bit more shaky. I stand firm that time time travel is not possible, but time ALTERATION may be theoretically possible. When one travels at the speed of light or slightly faster (ie. in a futuristic space shuttle or something) matter, time, and of course light are irrevocably distorted. While traveling at the speed of light everything else will seem to slow down for the person or objects traveling....even time.


So say you hop on a space shuttle, travel at the speed of light for a few years then return to earth. You will find that you aged only a few years while the rest of the universe has aged thousands of years. This is why i say time alteration is possible.

This is only a rough summary of what i know. A more detailed explanation would require much more time, details, and force x distance (this equals work for all you non science wierdos)

[Mo Lung]

Man! I love the posts on this thread. Just one more way of showing why history has recorded that martial artists were frequently philosophers as well. However, I must respectfully and cordially disagree with the possibility of time travel at all.



No, it cannot. There is just not enough energy in the universe. It cannot, it will not. Why? A law (not a theory, meaning it has been proven and now taken fro granted) of thermodynamics states: Energy and matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one to the other, and the number of times this can be done decreases. Wokay, so what does that mean? Time travel is termed time "travel" for a reason. It means you actually transport matter or any kind of particles associated with energy to another point in time.

Time travel to the future I can accept as remotely possible (show why later), but travel to the past, no. It would be like taking a "chunk" of matter or energy from the sum total of matter and energy of the universe as it is now, and suddenly somehow "squeeze" that into the past Universe (providing someone finds the energy to do that). That would send ripples that will affect everything, having that additional matter/energy into what is essentially a universe in equilibrium. And the Universe in time that it left will be left with a hole. It doesn't matter that some reasoning states that the matter/energy added in the past will bump everything forward to fill this hole; such bumping will destroy all time in between. Future travel is remotely possible (though that is a stretch, again, because of the energy considerations) because the hole left by the missing "chunk" will be filled again at some future date. But as I write this, I'm beginning to see that that too, is impossible.

I don't hold with the parallel universes thing either. I mean, consider: everytime you make a choice, another universe comes into being for the other choice? How about multiple options? Just how much energy is being spent for that? Think about it, one more additional sun if I decide not to take a job or if I take the job? That isn't even considering the number of options a person makes in just one day, and the number of people making those options. Yet, somehow, on all these "parallel" dimensions, we have very similar languages, fashions, etc. (or at least, as they are presented on TV).

If energy is somehow "available" for that sort of "branching" then shouldn't something as commonplace as "the branching" be evident enough for physicists to notice? Yet, they all state unequivocally that the number of conversions between matter to energy, vice versa or into each other is finite (though potentially great). For the same reason, we cannot say that the matter on all those parallel universes are actually the same matter or energy, for it is also a given that "Matter/energy cannot occupy to places at one time".

Let's face it. Parallel dimensions is merely an intriguing and interesting plot device for stories. It has no basis in fact. If any scientist has discovered that time travel is possible, let him prove it by showing us calculations that make sense even with the weight of known physical laws and theories, not by first assuming that those same laws are arbitrary.
Wow, there is an awful lot of assumption being presented as fact in this post....

[Shaolin Dragon]

Time travel to the past is definately not possible. I can say that with absolute certainty.


Given that it is very difficult to completely prove ANYTHING, and impossible to disprove something, how can you be absolutely certain?

And I thought that the multiverse theory was currently accepted by most physicists.

[Mwabukabuti]

Given that it is very difficult to completely prove ANYTHING, and impossible to disprove something, how can you be absolutely certain?

And I thought that the multiverse theory was currently accepted by most physicists.

Perhaps i was a bit hasty to say that i am absolutely certain of my theory, for it is just a theory, but one that makes the most sense to me.

[aikiMac]

Gryphon Hall, your explanation made the most sense to me of anything I've heard on this subject.

[Gryphon Hall]

Wow, there is an awful lot of assumption being presented as fact in this post....
Hmmmmmm...

Epur si muove --- Galileo

Peace, friend.

And I thought that the multiverse theory was currently accepted by most physicists.
You will be hard-pressed to find any physicist to commit to that, actually.

Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world; all knowledge of reality starts form experience and ends in it. Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality. --- Einstein
The multiverse or any time travel theory are merely that: theories. No practical or empirical formulae that can be observed or even relates to what is possible with the energy available to us. The laws of thermodynamics are facts being used everyday, from running cars to flying space shuttles. Any NASA scientist can show just how much energy, and money, is spent just putting something into orbit. The idea that technology can somehow advance that will allow us to have space ships that travel as they do on Star Wars or Star Trek assumes that we can ever find the energy sources small, portable and in great quantities enough.

Don't mean to offend.

Pax.

[Shaolin Dragon]

And a hundred years ago, nobody had heard of cars, planes, computers, mobile telephones - technology advances more rapidly with each passing year.

And this isn't directed at anyone, but there are few things as bad as a close-minded scientist;)

[Mwabukabuti]

What is time, that we can reach back and relive it? The past is not stored on a memory or micro disk. Once a minute, second, millisecond, nanosecond... (and even smaller) has passed it is gone and cannot be brought back. The idea of traveling back in time is absurd because how can we recall this data?? Show me where it is stored except in the memories of those who have lived it.

[Gryphon Hall]

And a hundred years ago, nobody had heard of cars, planes, computers, mobile telephones - technology advances more rapidly with each passing year.

And this isn't directed at anyone, but there are few things as bad as a close-minded scientist;)And for some reason, we still do not have the technology for immortality, for turning base metal into gold, for crystal balls that do not need power-sources to work, or for portable, weapon grade laser pistols or gauss rifles.

No, wait! We do have the technology to turn lead into to gold. I remember it is done by bombarding the atoms to change it's chemical properties. I heard it takes a lot of energy just to produce a few grams of gold; much more expensive than actually mining for it.

It isn't being close-minded, friend. It's the difference between a person who knows that haddouken and Kamehameha energy attacks will never be possible, and a person who thinks that, given enough time and training, can fight like a Super Saiyan.

Sometimes, impossible really means impossible.:)

P.S. Doesn't mean I don't wish that time-travel can be possible, though.:love: (I wonder why the smiles have to be red?) It really is very nice (no sarcasm) talking to you Shaolin Dragon; this would be a boring thread if we don't agree to disagree.

Pax.

[Shaolin Dragon]

Wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone thought the same, would it;)

[Gryphon Hall]

Yup. :love:

[Nukie]

ok so i haven't really paid much attention to the 2nd and 3rd pages of this forum so this may have been mentioned before but i just wondered..
Isn't it impossible to reach the speed of light if the body has a mass, cuz as it reaches the speed of light, the mass would therefore increase to an infinite amount and due to the equivalence of mass and energy an infinite amount of energy would therefore be required?

[Gryphon Hall]

ok so i haven't really paid much attention to the 2nd and 3rd pages of this forum so this may have been mentioned before but i just wondered..
Isn't it impossible to reach the speed of light if the body has a mass, cuz as it reaches the speed of light, the mass would therefore increase to an infinite amount and due to the equivalence of mass and energy an infinite amount of energy would therefore be required?
BINGO!!!

Gryphon Hall, your explanation made the most sense to me of anything I've heard on this subject.
Just read this. Thanks, sir.

[Nukie]

Just read this. Thanks, sir.

Yep fair point! I was just bein lazy by readin the first and last pages.. the ones in between had too much writing on them :D

[Gryphon Hall]

Yep fair point! I was just bein lazy by readin the first and last pages.. the ones in between had too much writing on them :D
Actually, when I said, "Just read this" I meant "I have just read [rhymes with bed and said] this, that you thought I sounded coherent, so thank you, aikiMac."

And when I said "BINGO!!!" in reply to your post, I meant "Man! You were able to say in one paragraph what I have been trying to say on several different posts?! Wow!"

Hee-hee. :love:

[Shaolin Dragon]

ok so i haven't really paid much attention to the 2nd and 3rd pages of this forum so this may have been mentioned before but i just wondered..
Isn't it impossible to reach the speed of light if the body has a mass, cuz as it reaches the speed of light, the mass would therefore increase to an infinite amount and due to the equivalence of mass and energy an infinite amount of energy would therefore be required?

That is true, but it could be possible to travel faster than light without exceeding lightspeed (sounds dense, I know) as space and time are the same thing, so you would "bend space-time."
This is the basics behind Star Trek's warp drive (originally called time-warp drive, interestingly) and wormhole theories.

[TheBorderer]

Hi folks,

I've been skimming through bits of this since this thread started(so I may end up repeating things! :D) and although I maybe can't be really 'sciency' in proof or formula terms and probably couldn't answer anyone to a satisfactory way, (that would probably require an essay of some description! :)) , I would like to believe that time travel is possible (too much watching of Star Trek and Star Wars and dayreaming henceforth methinks! :rolleyes: ), or would like to believe it is.

I think that when travelling through time, is subject to 'quantum'/'parallel' reality theories (where there is an infinite number of results based on a decision etc). This probably confuses things(or the thinking is probably 'wrong' somehow...), but the way I see it I think that is that there maybe is a way to traverse time and be able to return to the starting point, provided you dont do something really silly in the past causing you to cease to be, by death or by preventing your birth(to me thats something time tavel could never solve!). Because of this I also think that there are multiple timelines, yet as we function in such a way that we at present only see one (rather akin to being locked into one radio station frequency), then maybe the reason to the concept being 'irrelevant' and impossible is because we have to way to see how it exists. I know I don't have 'evidence' and my reasoning is going to be really questionable to a lot of you, but this is how I think of it.

I'd find it interesting to be able to travel in time, maybe because it's a concept is pretty much impossible to conceive(so maybe if we knew maybe we'd be in a place to go "what would it be like if we couldnt travel in time?"). Not that it stops me or anyone thinking about it. :) Maybe the reasoning for that is that we'd all like to beleive that we have absolute freedom and abillity to change anything we like and fix 'mistakes', even though the 'mistakes' are something which forms all of us differently and would maybe account for a relatively boring\stale existance if such things were not the case! :)

[Chris.B]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe time isn't real. Maybe we made up time, just to keep track of stuff and how long ago it happened. Maybe there is only now.