Real fighting - worth learning dirty techniques?

[axelb]

So from another thread, I thought it would be interesting to see how many of you who have been in a fight/self defense situation outside of the ring/cage/dojo/kwoon etc. and have successfully put to use dirty techniques/or not, and those who used non dirty techniques instead (successfully or not).

I've split it up into 8 different polls:

train in 'dirty techiniques' those that can't be practised in sparring:
have used dirty techniques:
1successfully
2Failed

have used bread and butter basic techniques applied in sparring
3successfully
4Failed


don't train in dirtry techniques or do very little training in dirty techniques
have used dirty techniques:
5successfully
6Failed

have used bread and butter basic techniques applied in sparring
7successfully
8Failed

[Dragonb]

Hi axelb.

I don`t understand those comments of yours related to dirty fighting.Bread and butter and a kind.
What kind of techniques would they be?And what is that is not successful of of dojo or mat?
We must imagine everything what can appear in dirty fight.Don`t we?To predict what can happen there,and then to be ready.
Dangerous,isn`t it?

[axelb]

ok so someone forgot to put the poll in and couldn't edit the survey so it's gone a bit wrong :D

I submitted a second survey with the poll Mods: can you please close this survey as I fubared it? :D

[axelb]

Hi axelb.

I don`t understand those comments of yours related to dirty fighting.Bread and butter and a kind.
What kind of techniques would they be?And what is that is not successful of of dojo or mat?
We must imagine everything what can appear in dirty fight.Don`t we?To predict what can happen there,and then to be ready.
Dangerous,isn`t it?

probably to clarify, what I was implying by dirty techniques would probably be best termed another way i.e. techniques involving an attack you cannot practice to another valid target to full force, including things like:

eye gouge,
ear poking,
fish hook,
*new one to me* collar bone ripping (wtf?)
ball removal,

this list probably goes on, but I would not include this like attacking another area of with a technique you can practise on the mat, like a punch to the groin or neck.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Would you include headbutting as a "dirt technique"? Because I used to spar with headbutts, until I nearly got my eye swollen shut. :p
Really, I think the whole concept of "fighting dirty" is relative. From what I can tell, kicking used to be considered "dirty fighting" in England and it's cultural descendants. Knees might be considered too "dirty" for sparring in some schools, or make up a core part of the curriculum in others.
For something like fishhooking, I wouldn't use it in a real fight for the same reason I wouldn't use it in sparring: I don't want to stick my fingers in someone's mouth. That's gross, and they might get bitten off. I wouldn't want to use hair grabs in sparring, but mostly because I'm afraid of losing some of this lovely blond hair. If it were shorter, I probably wouldn't mind that much.

[TheSanSooStorm]

I have successfully used "dirty" techniques.
Imagine a fish hook, but to the eye when it went to the ground. It was a pretty ugly site, yet a beautiful thing. :)

[windtalker]

my personal favorite "dirty" technique is spending hours in jkd class learning from sweat and considerable effort how to defeat someone that doesnt. thats just not right.

[Emil]

I hate the term 'dirty technique'. There is no such thing. There are two kinds of techniques - those that work, and those that don't. Period!

Em

[koyo]

tell him you don't want to fight and hit him on the word don't.


regards koyo

[GoktimusPrime]

If we're talking about actual fighting and not competitive sport, then HELL YES! The dirtiest and cheapest techniques are the best!! :D

All's fair in love and war. ;)

[NaughtyKnight]

Headbutts. Grab them by the colar, pull them in and smash your forehead into their nose. Done.

[Gajah Silat]

Don't forget that walls and pavement are useful too ;)

2 guys jumped me many moons ago, and one was easily dispatched when I put my hand over his face and smashed his head into a wall. 2 on 1 alls fair I'm afraid :Angel:

[axelb]

I hate the term 'dirty technique'. There is no such thing. There are two kinds of techniques - those that work, and those that don't. Period!

Em

very true.

I believe it's better to rely on well practised techniques, then rely on something that you've never practised under pressure, and potential never practised on anything but air.

[Smokey13]

I hate the term 'dirty technique'. There is no such thing. There are two kinds of techniques - those that work, and those that don't. Period!

Em

Here! Here!

[Tommy-2guns...]

Headbutts. Grab them by the colar, pull them in and smash your forehead into their nose. Done.

Seconded. Just watch out where you land it, screw up where your hitting and you end up hurting yourself just as much,but when it lands joy ensues.

[anthonyuk]

Don't forget that walls and pavement are useful too ;)

2 guys jumped me many moons ago, and one was easily dispatched when I put my hand over his face and smashed his head into a wall. 2 on 1 alls fair I'm afraid :Angel:

Yes, I think that's the way that (sadly) this must be looked at.

Paul Vunak had some interesting things to say on this when talking about the difference between self defence and self protection. The former might be when someone loses their temper with you in a traffic queue and you can walk away or just calm the situation - but either way its not worth caving someone's face in over or getting yours done in.

Self protection being when you are jumped by muggers, on the end of a hostile threat or a loved one is getting beaten up or robbed; then anything goes. I think Vunak covers this well in his Streetwise series and latterly his Personal Protection training where he emphasises the use of straightblast, elbows, knees and headbuts in his training. All with pads and proper protection. I tend to use this as the benchmark.

[Gajah Silat]

Absolutely. Although I've had more than a few self defence scenarios, I have had 3 self protection scenarios.

Self defense starts with getting away, talking down the situation etc. before the need for any physical intervention arises. Well, at least in theory, there is the opportunity to calm a situation down.

Self protection is different, it's happening there and then and you have to deal with it.

From my own experience I have had 3 self protection situations.

1. Suckerpunched in the back of the head. KO'd and stamped on. Not a great deal I could of done.

2. Me & GF jumped by two 'youths'. I made a mistake and held back. GF got hurt.

3. Random late night 2 on 1 attack. Having learnt the hard way I didn't mess about. However, had the police been involved I may have been charged with assault or worse.....knowing how our great British justice system works :rolleyes:

I think I will pretty much go for option 3, if I'm unlucky enough to have yet another self protection situation arise. :woo:

[Jack_Brando]

what ever you mean, i have practiced dirty techs in class, as part of a combo/self defense/take down move. Such as clawing the eyes, kicking up dirt with a bo staff, that what you mean?

[hanakuso]

LOL, kicking up dirt with your bo staff should really come in handy... :rolleyes:

[Vazula]

If there is no referee or ring, and you are in a real "talking hands" situation then there is only one rule 1) do whatever is necessary to ensure that you go home to your loved ones whole and healthy, if the other guy doesn't that's his problem.

[flashlock]

Rusty Fish-hook. :)

Look it up...

[fat-lazy-git]

in jj theres no such thing as a dirty technique.......fastest easy way to drop someone is always best.
i dont care if i have to seperate someones nutsac ( couldnt think of a better word)from their body or not, if there attacking me with intent...i defend....with intent.
pain is our freind...it tells you when the bodys got a problem......and makes others tap/run/scream or cry
martial arts is about fighting hence martial(military) art ( eerm art).

to me dirty is sneaking up behind someone and lamping them, when face to face knowing its a situation then theirs no such thing as dirty......unfair.......suprising.....ott but not dirty:)

salute

[Lucan]

lol! It's not hard learning how to poke someone in the eye. I think I'd rther learn how to actually fight :p

[Southpaw535]

yep learn it. most "dirty techniques" are just quick and effective ways of finishing a fight in a short time. Id draw the line at the curb stomp though

[TalkingHalls]

Haha dirty fighting is the only real way to fight.

Know why?

There is no such thing as a fair fight. Someone always has an advantage, just take your own to an extreme.


My personal thought is to, take them down as fast as you can, as brutal as you can for a few reasons.
1. Take them down before they can pull out a hidden knife/weapon (and when i say take down I mean in a way where they can’t get back up).

2. Do it very brutal to intimidate other people around you. Because let’s face it how many times does just ONE person jump someone there is almost always another one, or two people around waiting to jump in.





Finish it quick, brutal, and for the love of god if there are more than just the one person stay off the ground.

[Southpaw535]

or carry a Javelin missile eveywhere. 10/10 for intimidatio. and matyrdom

[TalkingHalls]

or carry a Javelin missile eveywhere. 10/10 for intimidatio. and matyrdom




ahahaha I'll have to keep that in mind hahaha

[the australian]

Haha dirty fighting is the only real way to fight.

Know why?

There is no such thing as a fair fight. Someone always has an advantage, just take your own to an extreme.


My personal thought is to, take them down as fast as you can, as brutal as you can for a few reasons.
1. Take them down before they can pull out a hidden knife/weapon (and when i say take down I mean in a way where they can’t get back up).

2. Do it very brutal to intimidate other people around you. Because let’s face it how many times does just ONE person jump someone there is almost always another one, or two people around waiting to jump in.





Finish it quick, brutal, and for the love of god if there are more than just the one person stay off the ground.

Too true.

[old palden]

As one of my old instructors used to say:

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your strategy sucks."

[CatWise]

I was ones attached getting to my car after work by 2 young guys. My favorite dirty technique at that moment was my stiletto's hill right in the guy’s ankle, followed by an elbow to the neck (I was aiming for the face but neck worked out even better). Followed by a REALLY nice kick in the balls to the other guy, and as he bend down, he got the other stiletto kick in the face; I played soccer so it was a "high ball". Needless to say, they didn't expect that at all from a lightweight like me at the time, and were both left on the ground trying to breathe as I speeded away in my car. Scares moment in my life! But boy did that feel good.
Moral of the story - stilettos make a great selfdefence weapons :)

[Southpaw535]

and the old medieval stilleto works even better!! seriously though if you've had a few fights and you've never used a crotch shot or a headbutt or something then i will eat my cat's litter tray

[Langenschwert]

Well, all we really train in medieval swordsmanship is dirty fighting. Butcher the guy as fast as you can before he does it to you. Close in and dump him on his head, hit him as he falls, stomp on his face, whatever. There's no time to do elsewise. Not really applicable to real life anymore, but what the hell. I don't think the Krav Maga guys use anything that isn't "dirty" either.

Or to quote the Firefly series (or was it Serenity?): "I wouldn't hesitate to kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I thought he was gonna start one. Or if I'm getting paid... 'specially if I'm getting paid." ;)

Best regards,

-Mark

[Satchoki]

definitely worth learning dirty techniques. They may just be what'll get you through it.

[liokault]

definitely worth learning dirty techniques. They may just be what'll get you through it.

But how do you learn them?

I learn a punch, I spar, I use that punch at full force, I actually hit people with it. After a period of time I own that punch. How do I do that with an eye poke?

Personally I think that 'dirty' techniques are over rated. I’ve been in a fight that went to the floor, with me holding the other guy in a head lock. Great position for a bit of eye gouging....first try my fingers ended up in his mouth (why he didn’t bit them I don’t know) end the second try didn’t do much more than make the guy scream at his mates to kick me harder! What it didn’t do was knock him out or remove him as a threat! (Incidentally that fight was ended by an unrelated third party driving their car into the crowd of guys stomping me as I eye poked the bloke on the floor to no end).

As for groin attacking. If there’s adrenaline then as much as it will hurt later it’s not going to stop anyone.

[Taffyleigh]

Haven't had a serious fight since i've been training although had a few close calls, but managed to talk and walk away from them. I think dirty techniques are the way to go though in a real fight, favourite tech of mine double palm heel slap to the both ears and immediately driving thumbs in to the eyes (so they can't hear or see anything) and at same time bringing knee up into nuts, hope i never have to use it for real but its a technique i like........to try on others!!

[Knight_Errant]

depends what you mean by 'learning'. If you mean whether it's worth drilling dirty techniques, I'd actually say no- because such techniques are easily added if one has a good striking/grappling skillset. But all the dirty tricks in the world won't help you if you don't. It's worth knowing about dirty tricks, but actually practising them in lessons seems to be a waste of time. You can't drill with them anyway, so what's the point?

[koyo]

Real fighting IS dirty fighting and nobody "wins"..one just walks away.



regards koyo

[SMMA]

I can't really understand your post. But i do train and teach 'self defense techniques', they are not dirty. What people seem to forget is that we all train to defend ourselves in real life, the ring and competition is just an outlet for us, but it is not what we truly train for.

[z boxer]

probably to clarify, what I was implying by dirty techniques would probably be best termed another way i.e. techniques involving an attack you cannot practice to another valid target to full force, including things like:

eye gouge,
ear poking,
fish hook,
*new one to me* collar bone ripping (wtf?)
ball removal,

this list probably goes on, but I would not include this like attacking another area of with a technique you can practise on the mat, like a punch to the groin or neck. thats not dirty thats self defense

[Dean Winchester]

Think you might need to re-evaluate your ideas on self defence...

[Ranzan]

Ask anyone in the spec ops community, cops anything like that, if it comes down to it's all fair game.

[Ryan-T]

Train everything you can for self defense. You can't do alot in a tourney..but in real life..your life is worth more then some criminal.

Stab their eyes, punch the throat, rip their balls off. Kill em. Don't let them kill you.

[Kurtka Jerker]

Fighting is about positioning, not tricks or techniques. The people who swear by "dirty" techniques but fail to pressure test themselves against other serious martial artists are decieving themselves. It's a cop-out to avoid actually having to train seriously, having to ever actually fight.
Bites, eye gouges, groin strikes/"rips", just like right crosses, front kicks, and armbars, are terrifying weapons when used by a serious martial artist with considerable experience. When used by someone who hides behind them to avoid actually training seriously, they consistently fail miserably.
The point? They're not a big deal, and alone, they won't save you unless you can already fight without them.



If you classify knives and guns as dirty tricks, however, the mechanics change. If you want to be prepared for these, you must train with them regularly.

[Hatamoto]

Real fighting IS dirty fighting and nobody "wins"..one just walks away.

I really like this post. It reminds me of what Pat Swayze said in Roadhouse when asked if he's ever won a fight ("Nobody ever wins a fight.")

Is it oversimplifying things to suggest "It ain't what you got, but how you use it"?

In 2002 or so I got set on by four guys. The one guy stepped up and hooked me in the temple out of the blue, took me by surprise. I was about three weeks into taekwondo at the time with no other martial arts experience, so I snap kicked him in the stomach. He looked at me for a second as if I'd just adopted crane stance, then tackled me and beat me into hospital while his three mates watched.

In hindsight, I think two things.
1) It's lucky I posed no threat to him, or they would have joined in and probably crippled or killed me
2) If I'd responded with a solid *something* to his throat I might have walked away less bloody (assuming it intimidated his mates, else the first point would come back into play :p)

Bottom line, nice guys finish last:bang:

[Pitfighter]

In Regards to "dirty" techniques... I think this sums it up best,

They're not a big deal, and alone, they won't save you unless you can already fight without them.



But to indulge your curiosity personally I've never actually gouged or bit someone as an adult. I think I bit and scratched as a kid but y'know kids bite and I don't think you can classify children's temper tantrums as self-defense or sparring.

What I think is more important if your forced to fight in the str33t is to be aware of your circumstances. I kicked a dude into a car and started slamming him in gravel. Even though I had a nice front kick and slam I think the car and gravel did more damage than my actual attack. Another time I took a dude down again near a car and started smacking his face into the rims.

By the way I wasn't the one who started either fight.

I mean before even trying it consider that if you try to fish hook you might get bit. And if you try to bite you might get fishooked. If you gouge someone it'll hurt them but they might still have their hands free to grab a knife or screwdriver or something. If you have to defend yourself the things around you are probably going to hurt the attacker much worse than your "techniques".

But bottomline don't get into fights anyways fights are stupid. The best you can do is walk away.

[seiken steve]

i've poked a bloke in the eye in defence and i feel no guilt.

its worth noting in in one of his books (karate's grapaling methods) abernathy has a chapter on what he calls fighting dirty.

[Draven Azropht]

Let me keep it simple;
I've used techniques thats permitted in sparring, techniques thats illegal to competition & the so called dirty fighting techniques, even stuck my finger in a guys eye socket (not poked but forced it in beside his eye) & threaten to dislodge his eye if he didn't stop. Of coure he was bigger then me and I did so from a rear mount. So it applies to one question on several levels.

[Kwajman]

As always, there are no rules in a fight for survival. A good friend of mine is 5'3" and about 120 pounds. If she were attacked she'd fight like a cat getting dunked in water. Clawing the eyes, jamming fingers up the nose, grabbing the larynx, slapping the ears, head smashing the nose, anything that the attacker can't control her from doing. There are no rules....

[Jumanji]

I don't think you need to learn dirty fighting as such...just go for the eyes madly?

[Ichidakedu]

The best tactic for me when meeting a bigger guy is a good hit on the balls and then running like a rabbit.

But as a former Taekwondo user I block the attacks like I have learned and then going for a dolly chagi trying to hit the ribs or the knee when fighting someone my own length.

But of course sometimes I have used techniques that are not allowed in a competition match.

[YouKnowWho]

As always, there are no rules in a fight for survival.
This is why I always have my "spikes ring" on 24/7. I'm going to get 9 more "spikes rings" so I can have one on every fingers (I'll have great time in my ground game too).

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1913/spikesring.jpg

[Kuma]

This is why I always have my "spikes ring" on 24/7. I'm going to get 9 more "spikes rings" so I can have one on every fingers (I'll have great time in my ground game too).

I always have at least a folding knife on me, if not also my friend Mr. Sidearm.

[RagingDelirium]

ok, in real life
99% of conflict situations your gonna get into (in the UK at least, bless the english anti gun laws) wont warrant dirty techniques
Remember the local police will get involved if you remove someones testicle
example - my other half managed to escape a mugging via stamp her stilto at his testicles and days later had a nice phone from the police to explain her that despite the fact the mugger had been hospitalized he would not be pressing charges.
simple techniques that dont mame your opponent are best, e.g. grab there throat and slam them into the nearest wall or floor, is normally more than adequate
once the standard aggressive idiot has been floored they have tendency of thinking twice as do there friends

as for 1% then simple still seems best, due make sure to finish it by damaging a limb or two (but i have zero experience of this situation so really cant comment)

[Humblebee]

Work on pre-emptive striking. Bang them before they realize what's happening.

[Late for dinner]

Its funny but I have been hit twice by well placed dirty techniques and neither really slowed me down at the time. A knee to the gonads by a drunk friend(?) when I was careless left me 'black' for about two weeks but there was no pain... next day just alot of swelling. Had as well some *ss poke his fingers in my eyes while I was trying to knock him on his b*tt in a rugby match... knocked me back and slowed me down.. for maybe about 2-3 seconds. Not sure that would have been enough to get a compete advantage over me in a fight.. all it did was make me want to slam him into the ground even harder.

As so many have said so far.. be sure that you can hit with accuracy and conviction before worrying about 'tricks' to save your bacon.

powchoy

[Moi]

This is why I always have my "spikes ring" on 24/7. I'm going to get 9 more "spikes rings" so I can have one on every fingers (I'll have great time in my ground game too).

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1913/spikesring.jpg

That's possibly one of the saddest things I've ever seen. A martial artist so unconvinced and disillusioned with his own training that he has to resort to crap like this to give himself the confidence to walk the streets,. Shame on you!

anyone got a link to that kid with brass knuckles in the mosh pit getting the crap kicked out of him?

[yannick35]

If someone comes to mug me i am going to kick is A$$, if someone does anything to my girlfriend i will kick is A$$ once more. that being said i never plan to fight and i have not fought since i was 25 years old and stop going to clubs, then it was usually a straight punch to the face of a guy that hit me in the nuts and started laughing in my face. He dropped and that was it. I try to avoid fighting as much as i can.

[Special Curry]

I hate the term 'dirty technique'. There is no such thing. There are two kinds of techniques - those that work, and those that don't. Period!

Em


I agree with that.

I prefer to call them dirty tactics to distract them, spit, throw glass at the feet etc and so on

[Moi]

I agree with that.

I prefer to call them dirty tactics to distract them, spit, throw glass at the feet etc and so on

Just call it fighting

[Killa_Gorillas]

There's a pretty funny anecdote from Bas Rutten at around 8:30 of this clip regarding 'dirty' tactics...



YouTube- Rallarsving - Bas Rutten