Black belts. (WTF)

[tkderf]

This weekend we (Montreal) are hosting a tournament for TKD WTF. There is a few teams from USA and Mexico and i was really surprised to find out very young poeple with very high dan grading. I've seen some poeple that are clearly under 16 years old being 3rd and even 4th dan. Not to mention that their physical shape and general performance was very questionable.

In some other thread, some poeple mentioned that 4th dan + instructors where able to promote black belts and give dan. If you read the Kukkiwon rules, poeple who get their 3rd dan has to be 18 years old and above... That makes me wonder, if these poeple are kukkiwon approved? In my country a black belt can only be given by the great master of my province, and i totally agree with this system, that reduce the chances of corruption. And keep a better control/standard of promotions.

there is a few things I would like to know and debate with you all..
first where are you from? how does black belt system works in your country? Do you beleive that every black belts should be given by a great master and approved by the kukkiwon for the WTF? why?

Thanks everyone!

[Kwajman]

Man, this story has been beat to death. But I think that as a rule very young black belts just aren't a real good idea. A sign of a McDojo. I was at a tournament today also and there was an 8 year old second dan. Good grief, I didn't know whether to bow or to puke....

[neryo_tkd]

8 years old.....second dan?????????????????????????????? :woo:

u must be joking???????????????????? :woo:

by the age of 20 he will probably have the 10th dan :woo:

[Artikon]

Salut and welcome to the boards TKDerf

Okay just in support of young black belts . . . If you have a child who starts TKD training at the age of say 6, and then at 12 he earns his first poome, is he any different than say an adult who starts at 19 and earns their first dan at 25? They have both put in the same amount of time. They are able to do the same things. What is the difference?

Differences of course are physical development and maturity level, but look at the junior who has studied TKD for half their life. When they start, they are the epitomy of being a white belt with no pre-concieved notions because they essentially are to young to have any. The adult has already experienced some of the world and probably does have some ideas of the stereotypes of MA. Does this hinder or enhance their training in comparrision to the JR.

Now my question is why should you hold a young person back if they are able to do the same techniques, have the same understanding, and show a developing maturity, the same as an adult?

I do agree that not all children show the maturity to hold the rank of poome and that responsiblitiy for deciding if they show the proper maturity is up to their instructor. I don't feel its fair however, to judge from the outside since you don't have the relationship that the instructor and student have. My personal experience is I have a young kid I coach and teach who is 13 and has just finished testing for his 2nd poome. He is by far the most mature kid I have ever met or known, and has the physical ability and understanding of an adult of the same rank and has been training in TKD for more than half his life. Should you hold him back simply because of his age?

Now for the kids you saw under 16 who held the 3rd and 4th dan . . . they were probably poome rankings which are essentially JR black belts. They have yet to recieve a Dan ranking which means they aren't able to promote and also lose some other advantages that an adult will have. However they are still considered a black belt.

Now I'm not exactly sure what you mean by great master. Do you mean Grand Master, or what dan ranking are you getting at? Regardless in your province the norm is probably having a single person sign everyone off, but that is your province and not the rest of the country. Each province has their own system of doing the dan testing, whether it happens at the school through the head master or through the provincial governing body. Personally I like the idea having a chief instructor having to witness a test before a dan application is sent to Kukkiwon, in fact that is similar to the system we have in place, but ours I think is slightly different.

Anyways welcome to the boards again TKDerf

[Kwajman]

Neryo, no joke, I pointed him out to one of my instructors and said that there had to be a catch. All he would say is, yes he is very talented, but apparently there was a long story to go with it....son of an instructor or something.....

[Thomas]

According to Tae Kwon Do Textbook vol. III by Kim Jeong-Rok, Seolim Publishing (in English and Korean): 1994, which contains the rules and regulations of the WTF and Kukkiwon:

(1) "Poom is given to those under 15 years old and dan is for 15 years old and above" (p. 371) Students under 15 should wear the red and black "poom belt" and dan holders wear black.

(2) Age Limits for Promotion (pp. 370-371) :
1st Poom : less than 15
1st Poom to 2nd Poom: less than 15 years old
2nd Poom to 3rd Poom: less than 15 years old
(If started at Poom, promotion is as follows:)
1st dan to 2nd dan : 15 years and above
2nd dan to 3rd dan: 15 years and above
3rd dan to 4th dan: 18 years and above
4th dan to 5th dan: 22 years and above
5th dan to 6th dan : 30 years and above
6th dan to 7th dan: 36 years and above
7th dan to 8th dan: 44 years and above
8th dan to 9th dan: 53 years and above
9th dan to 10th dan: 60 years and above

+++If you start at 1st dan (adult, here are the age limits) :
1st dan: 15 years and above
1st dan to 2nd dan : 16 years and above
2nd dan to 3rd dan: 18 years and above
3rd dan to 4th dan: 21 years and above
4th dan to 5th dan: 25 years and above
5th dan to 6th dan : 30 years and above
6th dan to 7th dan: 36 years and above
7th dan to 8th dan: 44 years and above
8th dan to 9th dan: 53 years and above
9th dan to 10th dan: 60 years and above

[Kwajman]

Hey Thomas, your preaching to the choir here. I'd like to find out who's his instructor and mail him your post with a few comments. Talk about watering down the system huh...

[Kof_Andy]

Haha teenage 4th dan? No way. There definitly not approved by kukiwon, perhaps preapproved by Mc Dojo maybe. There are no exception to skip the kukiwon requirement, dosent matter if your son of bruce lee, or founder of taekwondo. I agree age dosent present it all, some young one does have exceptional ability and very mature/well behaved. However you have to prove to kukiwon your worthy of the rank before you test tho. For example if you got 1st place at olympic game, world championship, or publish a decent martial book, you will be approved by kukiwon to skip the waiting duration before your next test. Otherwise there are no shortcute.

[Artikon]

Thomas there was an addition since 1994 to the poome rankings.
There is also a 4th poome level where the individual must be under 18 to be awarded this rank.

This is from the kukkiwon website. I'm not exactly sure when the 4th poome was created but I think it has only been within the last number of years.

And Kwajman . . . I'd like to know how you feel this is watering down the system?

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Artikon
Thomas there was an addition since 1994 to the poome rankings.
There is also a 4th poome level where the individual must be under 18 to be awarded this rank.

This is from the kukkiwon website. I'm not exactly sure when the 4th poome was created but I think it has only been within the last number of years.


Thanks... I'll put in in the margin of the text.

[tkderf]

Sorry i meant grand master, i am french native so bare with my word-to-word translation sometime ;).

I beleive that age does'nt matter for black belt also, i had mine at 12 years old and i really was ready for it... the point of my post what about dan. How can a 15 year's old kid have 4 dan? Even if he had his black belt at 10... he would still be 2nd... max 3rd.

The one i saw had a black belt (not poom red&black), he was about 14 year's old and he was 3rd dan. If he was in great shape and really impressed me during his fight i would've say 'ok, this guy deserved it'... but he was in very bad shape, could'nt follow the beat of a 1st poom, he even puked between the 1st and 2nd round. I don't know if he did that because of stress or bad cardio, but both situation are unacceptable for a 3rd dan.

[labeledas]

i was there to was a great weekend, you see the heavy weight fight that ended real quick i blinked and missed it, guess the guy lost a couple teeth i have the tape and am gonna watch it tonight

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Kwajman
I was at a tournament today also and there was an 8 year old second dan. Good grief, I didn't know whether to bow or to puke....

some people say that age is not important, but let's think about this kid a lil bit. 8 years old - 2nd dan. he got his 1st dan when...at the age of 6? when did he start training TKD? at the age of 2 or 3???? how logical is that????

[Taeho]

Yeah, I agree with neryo, age isn't important, but lets get real. It should take many years of dedicated training to achieve 2 nd Dan+. I just can't beleive that a 8 yr old has the mental capacity to understand what being a higher Dan is supposed to represent. Does an 8 yr old comprehend this? I doubt it. To most juniors it's just a trophy to wear, IMHO.

When our 12 year old black belts transfer over to the adult class from the juniors, they usually have a rude awakening. It's like going from daycare to bootcamp, with nothing in between. LOL

TKDshane Ÿ

[neryo_tkd]

and once again we agree TKDshane :) :) :)

concerning the transfer, the same thing happens here. the kids can't wait to get transfered, but when they do...reality check!

[tkderf]

Here there is no difference, they all have the same training. That could explain why we have a lot of success in our junior team in tournaments... Btw for this weekend's tourney we had 4 1st place out of 4 participants in our juniors! :)

[Taeho]

derf:Here there is no difference, they all have the same training.

I hope that you mean same training, but not the same classes. I'dhate to see your 250+ pounders falling on some 5 yr olds in class.

We have CUBS, ages 4-6, I think....
Then JUNIORS, ages 7-12 (aprox.)
Then at 12 they move to the ADULT classes, which are much more vigorous.

I have to say that we have one 1st Dan Junior who is so talented at the age of 11, that he attends both Junior and Adult classes back to back and fits right in.

[tkderf]

It's same class but with partner of their size, it works that way at our school:

cubs: 4-7

junior color belts: 7-14

Adults: 14+ all belts non competition level

Elite team: junior red belts/poom + senior black belts competition level (same class but they everyone train with a partner of his size)

Although, sometime we train with other sizes in elite team, as an example, i am 6'3 220 pound, sometime i'll train my fight with a 5'9 150 lbs. It will help me work on my close range fight and my speed, while it help the other guy work on his long range, approach and endurance... We also make tall poeple like me work with small pooms 12/14 juniors, we don't hit hard but we make them work on their approach/attack against someone taller...

[labeledas]

were you fighting at the quebec cup, i went to see the heavy weights and i missed 1 of the fights while i went to check out the karate tournament going on in the next room.

[tkderf]

no i could'nt fight - i wish i could, i am just recovering from an injury i did'nt want to take any chances.

[Kwan Jang]

-I think that the distinction between a junior black bel(poome) and full black belt (dan) should be emphasized. The junior black belt should be the height of what a child can achieve. The dan should be the height of what an adult can achieve (at least for the time they have been training). Kukiwon's testing and rank requirements really are not that demanding.(they offered me 6th dan three years early). In fact, you can be 1st dan in 1 1/2 years, though most reputable schools in the US will raise the standards. Other than some basic criteria, they leave the rest of testing standards to the local testing bodies.

[labeledas]

one of my instructors was the big black dude who got gold, he has some a crazy training background very brutal.

[tkderf]

The black guy in heavy weight? He was good, but the 2 other in this cathegory were very bad... the one on his first fight was short and putting too much weight on his front leg, plus he was placing his head forward.. the one who were third had an handicap, he had a motricity problem which is why he was so slow. My master (who was refery in this square) said he was pretty courageous to fight even with his handicap, he was also very lucky he did'nt get knocked... I would've like to fight with the black guy it would've been a very interesting fight, he had good speed for his weight...

[labeledas]

oh yeah, i was hoping to see someone give him a run for his money, he fought the same guy twice i think.

i was hoping to see some good heavyweights get a taste of what i will be fighting in the future, i am 6'8" 235 lbs

i placed my head forward while sparring in class with him and got snapped in the mouth a few times.

he is very sneaky too when he does his quads 3 mid last one high. knocked a few people out with that.

as for his speed he does alot of sprinting plus we spar with smaller people to get our speed up since we are the only 2 heavy weights at our club.

[tkderf]

You did'nt see any good fighter from Quebec fighting in heavy weight last weekend because the 2nd national selection is only in a month. None of the top fighters wants to get an injury a month before a national selection...although what did you think of the level in other category? I see you come from US, it's good to get opinion from other poeple :)

[labeledas]

i think it was the fly, there where amazing, and middle weight too. it was kinda of hard to watch all the fights at once so i missed alot of good hits i was watching one fight then look onver and someones helmet would be off and i was like damn.

and the guy that dislocated or borke his arm, oo that looked like it hurt. also one of the female fights got a little dirty at the end don't know if you saw it but there was an intentional hook punch to the face.

[tkderf]

Yes, she did that right in front of the grand master! I was sitting next to a couple of her friends and after the fight when they asked her if she did it on purpose she said 'no' with a very sarcastic smile and they all started to laugh... Although a guy from my school was judging in that square that he said that the other girl punched her a couple of time at the very limit of the neck during the fight, apparently the other got pist and just let it go... still a very cheap move ....

[labeledas]

yeah but that is no reason to intentionally throw a face shot, be the bigger person and let it go, i have had several intentional low blows, back kicks at full extension at crotch level one guy did it twice, thank god for my cup and I never freaked out or did any malicious attacks.

i am there representing my instructors and my art and if the other person wants to act disgraceful go right ahead. i think it says alot about a persons character.

and it was tottaly intentional i have it on tape, you can tell that was a hook coming up over the shoulder and straight into the face

[labeledas]

anybody from your club goign to halifax next saturday for woo young's tounament i heard the were a few quebecers going

[neryo_tkd]

are we still talking about black belts? :)

[hocsr]

I was under the impression that if you were under 15, your ranking was not considered a Dan, nor were you recognized as a true black belt, i.e., you can't receive a Kukkiwon Certificate. Maybe I am wrong. My daugher is 9 and about to test for her black belt, and yes she has earned it through 3 years of hard work and many state and national championships (unlike some other kids in the school whose parents just fill out the form and hand over a check, as they do for every other belt). I agree that most american TKD schools lesson the credibility of the belt by handing them out to whoever goes through the curriculum. I call them Walmart Black Belts.

[mountainsage]

Toddler Black belts, are we talking martial artists or martial sports? When your sparring with others your own age, a young BB can look real impressive. Put that same young BB against a person with more life experiance and they don't look so impressive. Baby BB are the exact reason TKD is a laughging stock of the MA world. Just because you put the time in does not mean you have the mental ability to be a black belt. When did BB lose it meaning? To the baby BB(under 18) out there I have some really bad news, life dosen't come at you in two, three minute rounds with thirty second rest in between. I will not and have not bow or show any respect to a baby BB, maybe help change their diapers and send them back to their mommas. The times is coming when my master will promote a baby to BB and then I am out of there and he can have my BB because it will have lost what little meaning it had. Yes, I'm trying to start an fight!

Mountainsage

[Artikon]

I was under the impression that if you were under 15, your ranking was not considered a Dan, nor were you recognized as a true black belt, i.e., you can't receive a Kukkiwon Certificate. Maybe I am wrong.

Yes you are wrong on this. A Jr can still be recognized by KKW but they are issued a poome certification instead of a Dan. When your daughter tests she will recieve a certificate that looks exactly like a Dan except it'll have yellow shadings around the border.

Yes, I'm trying to start an fight!

Okay then take it somewhere else

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Man, this story has been beat to death. But I think that as a rule very young black belts just aren't a real good idea. A sign of a McDojo. I was at a tournament today also and there was an 8 year old second dan. Good grief, I didn't know whether to bow or to puke....
i think if someone has the skill to be 2nd dan they should be 2nd dan.

[mountainsage]

Just because you can do the movements doesn't mean you have the skill or maturity to be a black belt.

Mountainsage

[Kwajman]

Shotokan, to an extent I believe you are right. My school has one young man who received his BB at 14. He is the most respectable, polite young man I have EVER seen in my life. He can also run circles around the adult BB's. After reading all of the posts I have changed my opinion of this a bit. There are always exceptions, such as the boy I'm talking about. I appreciate all the input.

[Din]

yeah i agree .. 16 and 3rd dan . his definately not kukkiwon approved...
here we can only be tested for dan promotion by an examiner who is of a higher dan then the one your testing for .... ie. if your going for your 4th dan the examiner has to be a 5th dan or above. if there is no examiner higher than the dan your testing for then usually we are asked to go to korea for testing.

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

very interesting students under 16 receiving 3rd dans and higher.... well i saw something like that at this one tournament a boy who was no where near 16 had a second dan and he wasn't that good at all and i questioned that myself. at my school we only have 1st dans except a boy named derek who has a first dan 9 grading or 8 grading is gonna be our school's first second dan and hes 17 he'll be 2nd dan by spring or summer. hes been training for a very long time. im from the USA. i don't think black belts should be approved by great masters cuz they aint training you... thats your master's job. whether or not you become a black belt. thats my opinion......

[Tetsujin]

hmm.. the issue here is..kid's age 14 years old 2nd dan?...that's bull! in our system..a 14 year old kid is only a 2nd dan junior black belt...for me of course..he's still a novice..
a beginner...my only comment is those kid's that are 2nd and that have questionable performance..should be questioned...

[EternalRage]

Some children can be mature enough to own a gun. Some, with proper training, could be crazy good shots. Don't even take a good physique for a kid to operate it. Then why are gun laws at 21? What about gambling? I know some kids with mean poker faces. What about driving? (assuming they made cars with pedals that reached that high) Some kids could be damn good racers.

When they start, they are the epitomy of being a white belt with no pre-concieved notions because they essentially are to young to have any.

This is very true. But put a kid in a position where he can have some authority, a place where he is ranked higher than others, even adults. Egos and bad attitudes are a risk of course. Any of you who have kids know that if you even budge a little, they'll walk all over you.

The chance that a kid is mature enough to handle a black belt, although not 0, is definitely lower than the chance that an adult is capable of handling the responsibility. And although the possibility does exist that some adults may not be able to handle it (met a few hotheaded black belts in my time) the frequency of this vs. that of kids who cannot handle it is much lower.

One more point. Say you have a kid that abuses the black belt status, has an ego, thinks hes the ultimate, looks down on his peers, etc etc. As stated by Artikon, kids are a blank slate. If other kids see this cocky young black belt, chances are they will be swayed to adopt a similar attitude when they become black belts - as blank slates they might even think that such an attitude is the proper one to have. If adults see a similar abuser of the black belt who is also an adult, they will most likely just dismiss that individual as an egotistical and see him/her for what they truly are, having experienced bad attitude ppl all their life in school and workplace (etc).

Of course all of this can be solved by the instructor. A good instructor can keep his blackbelt kids disciplined and respectful. But a good instructor would also instill more valuable lessons, such as patience and the value of something earned, not given - hence if I were an instructor, those little brats would definitely have to wait. If a kid is truly able to handle the blackbelt, physically and mentally, then in my eyes he/she would also understand why they would have to wait until a later age.

[Smokemare]

Hmm, interesting discussion. I'm not WTF, but I guess the same principles apply. To test for black belt in PUMA, you have to grade in front of a panel of senior members of the organisation, who range from 5th to 7th Dan. The test consists of:-

Line Work
Patterns
Set Sparring
Free Sparring
Breaking
Theory
Fitness Test

The fitness test is not really a fitness test, but it's the easiest way of describing it. It's more about showing your attitude and how hard you are prepared to push yourself for the grade.

If one of the Senior Instructors wants to grade, they don't form part of the panel for that grading and another instructor takes their place.

At the end of the day does it really matter what belt somebody is though? It's not really that indicative of how good a fighter they are or even how good a Tae Kwon Do-ist they are. Gradings and ranks are just that ranks. Tae Kwon Do is subjective and down entirely to the opinion of people. Your rank is merely a measure of the weight of your opinion.

Think about it, say I turned around and said, we should all do a technique a totally new way, or lets add a fourth pattern for 2nd Dan Test - nobody would listen. If the 6th and 7th Dans of our organisation said it - or an 8th or 9th Dan of ITF said it - well it would be discussed seriously then.

That's why I don't think it's fair for anyone to be awarded a black belt by anyone person, regardless of grade. The person could have a grudge against that student because they beat their favourite student in the final of the last competition, or they started at the same time as their son, who missed a grade, and they want that person to grade at the same time. Whatever - there are so many reasons a single person could even subconsciously not promote somebody. Likewise if they had a liking for that student, or similar they could promote where maybe they shouldn't.

With a panel of instructors, it's fairer, and makes the grades more worthwhile and harder to point the finger at saying favouritism.

That's my opinion anyway. Our colour belts are graded by one person, but no instructor grades his own pupils, again making it fairer, and harder to point the finger saying favouritism.

[pulp fiction]

There is a little girl in my dojang I think that she is 10 or something like that. A few weeks ago she tested for her black belt. My first thoughts were that she would be a poomse, but I got surprised when I saw her wearing the full black belt. She hasn't the maturity or the skills to be a 1st dan.

I don't know why this happened, but I like to think that this girl is good compared to other children.

Another thing that I complain about is that black belts should never let their guard down. I 've seen a some black belts that their hands are always on their sides while sparring.

Like other people said extremely young black belts are the reason why people tend to think that TKD is lame.

A good thing is that if you ever fight against such a black belt you might kick their ass, even if you are a good green belt.

[neryo_tkd]

There is a little girl in my dojang I think that she is 10 or something like that. A few weeks ago she tested for her black belt. My first thoughts were that she would be a poomse, but I got surprised when I saw her wearing the full black belt. She hasn't the maturity or the skills to be a 1st dan.

it's called 'poom' and not poomse.

[chasleeuk]

i dont think kids under 15 should be allowed black belts, because they are not fully developed physically and mentally...giving black belts to kids waters down the system.

in the end you just have loads of black belts, who have little skill, this makes the belt worthless and meaningless. black belts should only be given to people who have significant ability to perform with speed and power and correct technique. A child under 15 will have problems with the power no matter how good their speed or techniques are. ;)

[pulp fiction]

it's called 'poom' and not poomse.


Sorry, typo. You are totally right poomse are forms, poom is the black belt for kids.


I apologize for my mistake. It won't happen again.


This Korean language gives me trouble. Specially because almost everyone gives a different Korean name for every technique, even though they are the same technique.

[Smokemare]

Perhaps a solution would be to be very strict about the inclusion of destruction in the test. Then be equally strict about the age when it is safe to perform destruction.

I always thought kids doing power test on pads was a bit lame, I think it tested something different.

What you would do when kids got to a belt that required power test, well what give them a lighter colour? Then when they hit destruction age they could do a power test at a grading to upgrade to an adult belt. This would mean kids were grey belts I guess.

Not a brilliant solution and would maybe put a little too much emphasis on power test. I'll wager there are hundreds of far better solutions out there.

[wynnema]

black belts should never let their guard down. I 've seen a some black belts that their hands are always on their sides while sparring.

Most olympic fighters do this.

[Taliar]

I can't see what the problem is myself, other than perhaps some people don't like the idea of a younger person outranking them.

The grading standards should be upheld and exceptions should not be allowed for substandard kids, but if they have the required skills and knowledge then they should be allowed to test. Controlling their attitude etc is down to the instructor and parents and if they are unsuitable to grade then they should be stopped, but I can name just as many adults who let 'being a black belt' go to their head.

On the point of sparring, all sparring is relative, if they do well against people their own size and age, how is that different to the fact that there are age and weight categories in competitions. Yeah they may at 13 lose to some 6 foot + man, but would we expect a small adult to do any better.

I am not advocating lower standards for younger people just saying that the standards need to be upheld at whatever level is determined and whoever passes should be accepted no matter what their age, creed etc.

[neryo_tkd]

i think the instructors should be blamed, because a student cannot test if his/her instructor doesn't allow it. so it's the instructor whose criteria are low, or it's the instructor who cares only about money, or it's the instructor who is not skilled enough etc.

as far as the breaking test is concerned, i'd also love to see something done when kids reach the age they can do it.

[jcurtis]

i dont think kids under 15 should be allowed black belts, because they are not fully developed physically and mentally...giving black belts to kids waters down the system.


It all depends on the student. When I was 12 years old I was working on farms and bailing hay all summer long so I was extremely strong and obviously I was mature and responsible enough to have a job. I also played baseball, basketball, football (american), soccer and wrestled. No I wasn't praticing MA at this time and didnt start until I was 20.

I do however agree that they should not be awarded Dan ranking until they are old enough since that is the way it is supposed to be. I have a great deal of respect for some of the "child" black belts out there because all of the ones i know have practiced for 5 or so years to get there 1st Dan. For most kids sticking with any activity for that period of time is a great accomplishment in the US.

[neryo_tkd]

I have a great deal of respect for some of the "child" black belts out there because all of the ones i know have practiced for 5 or so years to get there 1st Dan.

not all cases are the same. not all kids, not all adults.

when i tested for 1 Dan, a girl from my club tested too and at that time she was 13 i think. we both passed. as far as this little girl is concerned, she definitely earned it. my instructor doesn't allow kids to wear a full black belt before reaching the right age. now she is the right age and she is wearing one. i don't see any reason why she shouldn't have gotten her black belt back then. she is an excellent fighter. i think in 95% of her competitions she won gold. she is in the national team too and getting better every day.