Arm Conditioning- Good or Bad?

[CKava]

A few months after starting Wing Chun I was shown an arm conditioning drill which I've subsequently been practicing for about a year and a half. In the beginning it resulted in pretty badly bruised arms but over time the bruising became less and less and now I very rarely get bruised when I practice it and am able to continue for much longer periods of time. Generally I have found the conditioning to be very beneficial to my overall training but I do have a couple of questions regarding this particular conditioning and conditioning in general.

Without going into detail the arm conditioning I practice involves making what feels like bone against bone collisions (with a partner) generally making contact at either side of the wrist on both arms. My main question then is what exactly am I doing when Im doing conditioning? And is it doing me any long term damage? I remember reading something about calcifying the bone but its all a bit hazy. I also remember reading a lot about numbing nerve endings and losing sensitivity but I have to say that I havent experienced this at all. My sensitivity if anything feels sharper around my wrists than previously (though I accept that may have nothing to do with the conditioning).

Basically Im just curious in general for any information people have regarding conditioning, Im posting on the Kung Fu forum because specifically Id like to see what other Kung Fu practioners experiences are, also the drill I practice I've found to be pretty common in Wing Chun clubs so chances are other people might have experience with it which may be informative/helpful (or not as the case may be) :)

[PantherFist]

Conditioning without the use of Dit Da Jow(Fall Hit Wine) is very unwise indeed. Conditioning is an integeral part of many traditional systems, both Northern and Southern styles and to condition any parts of your body without Jow can lead to long term damage. Most traditional kung fu styles have there own seceret recipies which they guard jealously. I would highly recomend that you ask your Sifu for some Jow, or if he can't supply it either buy it from a Chinese medicine doctor or buy mail order(such as Lee Kam Wing's of Seven Star Praying Mantis fame)

Jow is very important, it does many things such as healing bruises by get the stagnent blood moving, ibringing down swollen joints etc. It protects both internaly and externaly the limb being conditioned.

Jow is usually applied both before and after conditioning. Some Jow's contain poisiones ingredients and should not be used near open wounds. And a word for the wise, even thou Jow can mean wine it should not be taken internaly ie swallowed it should be taken externaly.

[David]

Yes Kava, I read your post expecting to see jow mentioned at every pause and I agree that it's important that you should get it and use it.

I don't know everything about conditioning so can't answer your questions properly. From my brief stint of WC training the arm work we did was 3-star arm condtioning which sounds like the one you allude to.

Recommending jow covers the longterm health question. Like you, I've heard about conditioning methods which work by destroying the nerves and was concerned that my methods would result in that happening. The good news is that I can completely refute that fear :) Try stopping conditioning training for a couple of months and then test yourself - you will find that you can't take the punishment that you could before, thus proving that your nerves are fine...

Rgds,
David

[SSJ1_Katrina]

it sounds as though you are most likely developing callus' on your bones which involves the building up of bony lpaques over the points of stress.
yes it can have negative effects on nerves over time (generally nothing permament mind you) and can also cause hematomas, which are soft legions under the skin that contain pooled blood.
from each session of the training there will be trauma to the vascular system with the rupturing of some capillaries and so forth and other localised trauma to the area, but that happens with all training sessions/fitness sessions.

so all in all it shouldn't cause anything major to worry about, even in the long run. although when in doubt your GP is always your best bet, if you want any more info you can email or pm me,
good luck with the training!

Katrina
Dip. Health Science (T.A.F.E)

[CKava]

Thanks for the replies thus far... I've never heard anything of 'jow' though if its as useful as you seem to suggest maybe I'll look into it. I have to say though that despite not taking anything up till now I havent experienced any adverse effects (but i guess i can't speak for 20 years time or what not).

Oh and thanks Katrina that was very helpful information, good to know Im not doing anything too bad... To be honest I feared I would get replies of horror stories of getting arthritis in 2 years or something so this has been a very nice suprise, very useful informed replies! Keep it up :D

[David]

Yeah, good post Kat. Except I've never met a Doctor who could discuss/diagnose problematic results of training with any confidence. These days, I try to find my own answers.

There are some grotesque extremes of conditioning, mostly affecting the hand that come to us from the past. Stories of karate masters who couldn't hold a tea-cup, kung fu fighters who's hands are clubbed and senseless as a piece of wood, strange methods involving toxic concoctions, flame and god-knows-what causing withered, blackened appearance.

The damage that can be caused by injury during actual training/use of the art will likely/hopefully be more bothersome than anything longterm.

Still, I'm not going to refuse traditional medicines which are kind to my battered bits, minimising downtime or get me pumped for action.

Rgds,
David

[CKava]

Originally posted by David
From my brief stint of WC training the arm work we did was 3-star arm condtioning which sounds like the one you allude to.
Just thought Id mention that I have since heard the conditioning I practice referred to by several people as 3 star/point conditioning so I think that would seem to be the name of it (mind you the full form I practice has 5 collisions but originally I was just shown the 3 but maybe the number doesnt refer to the amount of contacts, anyway).

[PantherFist]

I can remember a story I heard years ago, that happened during the kung fu boom of the 1970's concerning hand conditioning.

There was an article in a magazine or book that taught you how to turn your hands into deadly weapons. You had to find a nice large rock and and smash your hands into it so you would break your two knuckles. The reason for this was that you are trying to get rid of the gap between the knuckles and are trying to fuse the two knuckles into one flat bone, thus making the fist stronger.

Naturaly certain individuals who at that time were fanaticaly into martial arts followed the above instructions and now have badly deformed hands and severe arthritis.

[SSJ1_Katrina]

common sense would say that the article's advice sounds a little, um, unhealthy.

i don't know what a doctor would say, but if you take anything to the real extreme its bound to be harmful. i've heard a few horror stories but nothing that has actually happened recently- within the last few years. with the development of exercise physiology i think that thinks are getting heaps better for people who are training with the health information available.
then again, things like holding horse stance for a long time can contribute to causeing sciatica, so we still have to be careful.

geez, that article above is really kinda scarey!

[jmd161]

Well the conditioning that you speak of is called 3 star arm banging.It conditions both your bone and muscles.This is to help with taking strong blows like punches and kicks.

Many styles teach you to block a punch or kick with your arms.In order to be effective at this.You have to condition the arms for it.Otherwise you could have your arm badly broken or damaged by the strike you are trying to deflect.

It bothers me that your sifu would teach you the technique and never even mention Dit Dar Jow.

The technique mentioned about punching and hitting rocks was common,but that was many many hundreds of yrs ago.Before it was realised that you could condition the hand differently (internally) and have the same devistating effects.The method he was refering to was called external iron palm training.Usually in that type of training the hand became nothing more than a club.It was usually of no other use to the person.

So that's why it really does'nt exist in today training.The hand was'nt good for anything else.Most could'nt even feel or grab anything with the hand after that type of training.


jeff:)

[af_sting]

The physical effect that repeatedly striking a bone results in is a type of bone and muscle densification. You are essentially causing hairline fractures and tears that are then repaired with calcium or protein. Is it bad? Well, it's similar to the way a tree grows stronger. The wind pushes the tree forcing it to build fibers in order to hold itself up. So theoretically (if you’re a naturalist) it should be considered a natural method of developing the strength of your bones. Of course I know of no long-term medical study of densifying bones. The best I can say is that me and people I know have been banging shins and forearms for years with no ill-effect (other than an occasional bruise). I also know that soccer players inadvertently do this type of training (via banging shins) and besides developing very strong tough shins, they show no adverse effects.

On a side note, if you've been training for 1 1/2 years, you must have come to a conclusion before now on whether it's effective training or not. You've already said you're arms are more resistant to damage, which I assume is the intent. I also find it amazing that you've never heard of Dit Da Jow. I’ve also seen it referred to as Iron Palm or Hand Washing liniment. It essentially stimulates the area it’s applied to and helps in healing (not protecting) damaged tissue.

As far as the knuckle buster training mentioned by someone else, that's just insane. Traditional iron palm/body training is slow and tedious, but effective and I've never seen anyone get scarring or severe damage from it (on the contrary, iron palm produces soft smooth skin via the herbs in Dit Da Jow). That tells me that there are better ways to build your body than striking cloth covered boards, bricks, or trees (Ouch! The living fiber of a tree is very dense indeed).


Respectfully,
-Ray

[Goju]

At my dojo we condition our arms by standing face to face in a forward leaning stance (zenkutsu-dachi) and we both throw an outside middle area block (Soto-Uke) at the same time, THe arms smack together, but to avoid bone on bone injuries we turn the arm so the the point of impact is on the muscle, it still hurts though. I don't really enjoy these excercises because I havent seen any real improvements on my ability to block, and besides that, they just hurt, a lot.

[quartermaster]

i have little to say on the topic, only that as yet i have had no problems with my conditioning. also if the style has it in its teachings then how can it possibly be bad if done properly with the right precautions and of course dit dar jow