Vicious Arts

[Sweeet]

Right now, the style of arts that I am learning is primarily defensive, and reactive in nature. I know I may get flamed for asking this question, and definitely thought of as immature or naive (don't flame me!) - which I'm sure everyone wonders - but, say I was mature and responsible enough to handle the knowledge, (I'm quite aware of the fact that at this point, I'm not), what would be the most vicious, dirty, efficient and effective art I could learn - I mean one that could very seriously hurt people? Generally when I think of these types, Kali/Arnis, Kenpo, and some kinds of Nijitusu/Nijutsu come to mind. Although I may be wrong about that. I'm not trying to infer that those arts don't have the good aspect of discipline, avoidance, ect - just that they are vicious in technique. The thought that people who shouldn't, can obtain the skills and knowledge enabling them to viciously dismantle people with their bare hands is quite disconcerting to me. Thoughts, opinions?

Sweeet.

[Thomas Vince]

Sweeet,
Hello, you know I am going to say Kenpo, more specifically Ed Parker Kenpo, but any art can be deadly, it the practitioner that makes it what it is. If you have not seen these mpegs on my webpage take a look, click on the icon to download, these are beginning Kenpo techniques that we teach Orange belts.
http://www.vincesmartialartacademy.com/wsn54EF.html

Also, Instructors should be aware of what they teaching and who they are teaching it to. Guns are readily available and people need relatively no training at all to point and shoot. The arts we made for war, at a time when there was war and some have not been watered down while others have.
Any art can be dealed viciously to the attacker.

[Sweeet]

Cool vid's Thomas - thanks! Do you have anymore mpegs or know any good sites for them? I'd like to add to my collection. also, is that you in the vids? Adding to my question - if anything, what do Kenpo instructors do to ensure that their arts aren't taught with indiscretion to any Joe Schmoe who wants to learn how to beat someone to a pulp?
Also, what about arts like Silat or Ninjitsu? Reputably, they are extremely vicious, brutal, quick, and messy. Could anyone elaborate on their knowledge of these arts for me?

Sweeet.

[Freeform]

What style? depends who's doing it really.

[YODA]

I have a problem with many "vicious" martial arts. I often find that the more "vicious" an art is the less I rate it as a combat ready system.

The problem with much of this is the fact that many of the vicious deadly tecniques cannot be practiced "alive" on a fully resisting non compliant partner. The arts I rate as the most effective do not have deadly techniques as such - just basic combative moves that are trained realistically against non compliant opponents. For example...

Muay Thai
Judo
Boxing
BJJ
Shootfighting

Yes - these are all "sports" - that is what makes them effective. You can pressure point eye poke groin grab secret deadly death touch all day - they usually go the same way when confronted by a good solid lead jab / low shin kick or a double leg to knee mount to armbar.

An example would be takedowns from say Silat vs Judo. I learned many takedowns in Silat that where "vicious" and got lots of "oohs & aahs" from those watching - so much so that to apply them at full speed would seriosuly injure a training partner. This meant that you could not practice them against a resisting non complient opponent - this also means that I will never gain the timing or real time experience to make them work under pressure. A simple Harai Goshi from Judo CAN be practiced real time - and will therefore be af greater value when it hits the fan. A friend of mine started & ended a fight with a good harai goshi - on concrete. Fancy a mugger trying to attack a 5 foot 5, 11 stone, 45 year old man by grabbing him by the lapels - LOL! Guess my buddy wasn't wearing his "Warning - Judo 4th Dan" badge that day - LOL!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Where can I get one of those badges? Evidentally customised for myself of course.

[YODA]

Here you go Jimmy :D


http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/images/ckd.gif

[Spike]

<applause>
can you get them in Silver with an id badge to go with it that fits in your wallet?

[Thomas Vince]

Again I think that techniques should be kept simple and logical the more elaborate a technique the more difficult it becomes.

[Tommy_P]

I guess it's really a question of which arts still "outwardly retain their viciousness". At one time all the traditional systems were violent and meant to maim or kill. The move from "jutsu" to "do" was a start as far as softening the arts. Sport pretty much did the rest.

It's all still in there, you just have to look a little deeper. Many of the newer more eclectic arts as well as some others mentioned here are geared toward pure self defense.

As a traditionalist myself, I choose to utilize what is already in my art and others like it. I believe all the traditional arts are complete, just not always taught that way............it's in there!!!

Tommy

[Darzeka]

The harder you hit the floor in training - and then get up - the harder hit to the floor you will be able to take and shrug off in the real world. Thats how we practise those nasty throws and body drops - obviously we have thick padded mats and we breakfall really hard but they still hurt - you start off with some nice simple throws for the first few months then when you grade you learn other more "hurtwagon" techniques. As you do these more you learn to fall proerly from them and then they don't hurt as much. and so on and so forth until you have a body like steel.

I also agree that it comes down to the person. Viscious techniques can be derived from most techniques taught to people. Yes that forefist strike will hurt if you hit him in the sternum but if you punch him in the throat he will die. Same for the heel of palm - rounded blow will stun, maybe break the jaw but an upward strike on the point of the jaw will kill.

Practising these "deadly" techniques can be done with a live opponent. Just make them evade and block all you need to do it aim properly and with those takedowns if your partner has trained hard and has become conditioned to falling and breakfalls then on mats there will be little real damage done - a little bruising maybe but on the whole nothing major.

And as for the opponent not trying to kill you? you haven't seen our wrestling. I know that most people will wrestle with the same agression as we do but the way poeple like us go about it you would think us mortal enemies. If I'm trying to choke you out I will be trying to crush the neck too and keep the pressure on till you go limp or you tap. That is how you learn how to deal with someone trying to kill you - have someone do it. Yes we have some rules but we rarely adhere to them - the only one I haven't broken is fishhooking (no real point just get your fingers bitten. I even eye gauged my brother once by accident. Elbowed my instructor in the head once too.) I think someone smacked my mouth last time cause my teeth are all tingly at the moment.

In conclusion to my roundabout ramble I beleive the visciosness is in the artist not the art but arts that teach viscios applications are more prone to have viscios artists. I include my art in this group even though the people I train with are probably the least likely people I know to get into a fight.

[Sweeet]

Despite my limited experience, I just have to disagree with this statement..:rolleyes:

'Yes - these are all "sports" - that is what makes them effective.'
-Yoda

Surely you must be kidding me? Sure, sport martial arts can be effective (I would even go so far to say that it is the more the artist - not the art) - but as far as I know, and based on the inferences you make about not being able to train certain techniques - how you train is how you will fight. In 'sport' arts, you aren't out to kill, main, or injure you opponent as you potentially would be in a real fight. Despite the difficulties in practicing these types of 'vicious' techniques that can't be practiced at 'full speed against a live resisting partner, ect.' why wouldn't they be able to be performed well in a real situation, and be potentially more effective that the watered-down sport techniques that can more easily become muscle-memory.

I argue this simply because, even some of the elementary techniques in Hapkido that I've learned already could seriously injure a partner if performed at full speed without caution. I'd tend to think that even very simple arm-bars or wrist locks for example could be dangerous if you attempted to perform them at anything like what you would in a real situation. You could easily break your partners arm/wrist with a little too much speed/twist/strength. Yet, let me tell you that these techniques can be practiced to the point of being muscle memory - safely - and in a real situation could be performed with upmost speed.

I just fundamentally disagree that 'sport' arts are necessarily more effective than other arts because they are more easily practiced for real time and pressure. Why are they?

In conclusion and aside from my long nit-pick, I have to agree with the majority of Darzeka's post. I think that most techniques can potentially be quite vicious - and that it is in the artist, not the art.

Sweeet.

[Jim]

One of my instructors used to have a saying 'use your drills as bloodless battles and your battles as bloody drills'. I think this applies here.

[Silver_no2]

Any MA can be vicious. It depends entirely on the practitioner. When you reach a certain proficiency in a martial art you are capable of "deadly force", a term that I hate. What is "deadly force"? I could punch someone in the head as hard as I could, putting all sixteen stone (224 pounds or 102 kilos for our foreign friends) behind it and they might smile and say "Is that the best that you've got?" (a line I have used to great effect, despite the fact that it hurt like buggery, and one that has also backfired on me:D ) whereas I could do exactly the same punch on the next person and kill them! Anyway I digress.

I think that a lot of the arts have an unjust reputation for being "soft". Look at aikido as an example - many consider this a "soft" art as you train with someone, not against someone. There is a very good reason for this - to go full out would result in broken bones on a daily basis! This is not conducive to becoming proficient in an art :D Does this mean that an aikidoka will get their ar*e handed to them in a sling whenever they have a fight because when they train it is not with a view to maim/kill? Obviously not.

Any MA, be it sport, traditional or modern can be vicious. Just because a lot of the "sport" MAs use punches and kicks rather than the "strikes" that you see in the "harder" styles does not mean that they are less effective or vicious. A "vicious" right hook can do as much damage as a palm strike. I have to agree with Tommy P when he says that it is a question of which arts outwardly retain their viciousness. What MAs with a sports element do allow is the practitioner to get a feel for the techniques in an environment that is just short of all out war:D


[i]Originally posted by Spike[i]
[b]can you get them in Silver with an id badge to go with it that fits in your wallet?
You try and get anything in me Spike and I'll rip your arms off and beat you with the soggy ends:woo:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

"Is that the best that you've got?" (a line I have used to great effect, despite the fact that it hurt like buggery, and one that has also backfired on me )

I love that line. I tend to hold back whenever I hit someone, for fear of hurting someone. Once had someone say that to me (from behind a big padded training shield), replied no, kicked and knocked them off their feet. Then again I've had people half my weight do similar things to me.


What MAs with a sports element do allow is the practitioner to get a feel for the techniques in an environment that is just short of all out war

Since when was sport short of war? You wanna visit my old school and watch the PE lessons mate.

[Silver_no2]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
I love that line. I tend to hold back whenever I hit someone, for fear of hurting someone. Once had someone say that to me (from behind a big padded training shield), replied no, kicked and knocked them off their feet. Then again I've had people half my weight do similar things to me.I said it to a guy on a rugby pitch after he'd just hit me. He said no and then hit me twice as hard. I was unconscious for about 30 seconds and had a very sore head for three days, just glad I had a gum shield in at the time. :D


Originally posted by ckdstudent
Since when was sport short of war? You wanna visit my old school and watch the PE lessons mate. Sport is short of war in that you have to shake hands with the enemy...sorry, opposition...at the end of the game:D Have happily battered the cr*p out of someone for 80 minutes and then shook hands and went and had a pint together. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that my Dad told me that doesn't happen in war:D

[Freeform]

As you do these more you learn to fall proerly from them and then they don't hurt as much. and so on and so forth until you have a body like steel.


I've been doing this for years and I have the body of a Jellyfish (or T2). I just splat on the ground and kinda reform. Softness is the key my young padawan, don't tense and it won't hurt (ooh err). My old Sensei had us do this on wooden floors and it doesn't hurt (much).

Although I've yet to find someone who'll willingly take a proper Outside Wheel (variant Loin Wheel/Cross Hock) even I wouldn't and i'm not right!

I'd agree that the sport element does teach you that on the spur of the moment 'oh b***s' reflex when you've mucked up. Not this "so if you fail with the hip throw move immediatley into a stamping throw" that you don't get with the 'shadow fighting' between 2 highly skilled fighters.


I believe all the traditional arts are complete, just not always taught that way............it's in there!!!


I completely agree.

Thanx

[Sweeet]

Just to add to this thread and my experience, I've recently met with a friend who has trained in Ninjitsu for about 14 months and we fiddled about in my backyard for a couple hours. What I very quickly learned is that he was not interested in my restraining techniques, and would not spar with me. After I had taught him a couple very basic Hapkido techniques - twisted collar, for example, he no longer wanted to learn any more. When I asked him why - he just said that his were more effective, and when he demonstrated what he would do in the same situation - it was completely vicious. So of course I said 'what if you just want to restrain them?' Basically his response was 'shouldn't have grabbed me' or 'I won't hit them as hard, maybe'. When I told him my reasoning behind learning a well-rounded art like Hapkido before going into Ninjitsu in a few years (my intention) he said that he agreed, but when I asked him about getting sued for use of 'excessive force' and going to jail his response was basically 'that's life'. From what I could tell, this style in and of itself, is completely 'vicious' and not practical for simply restraining drunk in a bar, or something like that. If that drunk grabbed you, with Hapkido you could restrain him in any number of ways and wait for authorities, or move him out of the bar, or hurt him, depending on what you want to do. In the same situation with the training my friend is recieving, the guy would be lying on the floor bleeding with broken bones in seconds. As much as I'd like to agree with the sentiment that 'the viciousness is in the artist not the art' my recent experience suggests otherwise.

Comments, experiences?

Sweeet.

[pesilat]

I would say that your friend is young and naive (in the art of Ninjutsu).

I've had very limited exposure to Ninjutsu ... but from what I've seen, it is very well-rounded and does have restraining methods in it. Of course, it could also be that his instructor doesn't teach those methods.

Every art that I've ever seen has both of these sides to it ... it's how it's taught (or perceived) that usually makes the difference.

Hapkido, for instance, can be taught in a very vicious manner. Every lock you do, if applied on a slightly different line or, in some cases, with just more torque can be injurious.

So ... like I said, I'd guess that your friend is unaware of this aspect of Ninjutsu either because he chooses not to see it or because his instructor doesn't teach it (or hasn't taught it yet).

Mike

[Sweeet]

I don't think he's naive in the art - and maybe him and I both are - but it would seem that the art outwardly retains it's viciousness much more than Hapkido for example, and cares more about disposing with aggressors in swift and messy fashion than simply subdueing them. I could be wrong, but I doubt that many people that are well versed in ninjitsu would disagree with me - regardless of whether it includes a few restraining techniques or not.

As for Hapkido being 'injurious' - well - I know. :D
Ninjitsu brings a whole new meaning to 'excessive force', however, IMHO. Sure, any art can be injurious, but the basic aim isn't necessarily to break more than one of the guys bones before he hits the ground.

Maybe it's just the impression I got?

Sweeet.

[pesilat]

IMHO, instructors should teach according to the current environment. In today's society (at least here in America ... not sure where you are), I think it just makes sense to be very aware of and train with some restraining in mind. Of course, I think the other side is just as vital because some situations require it.

Kali (one of the arts I study) is notorious for its "overkill." But the way that my instructor (and I) approach it is that it's a matter of flow. I do "overkill" so that *if* I miss or am blocked/countered, I simply flow, with no hesitation. I personally feel that I'd be able to stop at any point the situation dictated ... I'm not a robot.

Kali and, especially, Silat (another art I study) are regarded as *highly* vicious. And they are. A common phrase is, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." But, personally, I'd prefer not to face either situation. Or ... if I am "judged by 12" I hope to have done everything I can (before, during, and after the actual fight) to lessen my problems with the 12.

My point (which I wasn't very clear with previously ... I had just woken up from a nap after training all day at a seminar) was that, while some arts *are* more intrinsically vicious ... they don't have to be taught that way. Emphasis can be placed (by the instructor) on particular aspects one way or the other.

Does that make any more sense? I think I'm more awake now :)

Mike

[Darzeka]

I think when people think of vicious they think something that is beyond what most people think as "acceptable" in a fight.

Look at the situation when you are in a fight.
There are at least two people intent on causing pain to each other (at least one and so the other person must respond in kind or run - therefore not a fight).

Where do you draw the line at vicious? a punch in the stomach? a punch in the face? throat attack? arm bar resulting in broken elbow? choke? ripping someones testicles off?

Personally I think that if someone is prepared to punch someone with intent to cause pain/injury they should also be prepared to rip the other persons testicles off and have theirs ripped off in return.

As for restraining vs. broken bones we train in using both. One of the first locks taught is purely restraining, unless your really slam the other persons arm as you apply it then you will end up with a controlling lock with them having their face planted in the dirt.
On the other hand the next lock you learn is purely for the purpose of breaking their elbow. As you apply this you strike under their shoulder either dislocating it or snapping the elbow. Then you carry their weight back and land with their elbow on your knee. When practising this you need to hold the other person up off the ground other wise there will be an injury.

Underlying these locks are the principles of why they work. This is why they are taught to show the student some basic principles of how to work an arm bar. They are also taught to show how easy damage can be caused to the body and how restraint is necessary when using it.

Coming to my point in a very roundabout way I think that any technique can be vicious. You put someone in a restraining hold and then kick them in the face a coupla times is it now vicious?
On the flip side you perform a "vicious" technique but moderate it to let the other person have the chance to stop but still with leverage to cause damage, is that now "tame" or "safe"?

Applications of techniqes is vicious.
Techniques are just a series of motions we practise.
Ultimately our reactions to a given situation which is based on the techniques we practised contain a certain amount of viciousness but the techniques are not of themselves vicious.
It may be that the instructor has not the vision to realise this or don't think the lower ranked students need to know this but it is still true.

[waya]

I have to agree with Mike. Ninjutsu is one art I am involved in, and while the techniques can be very nasty, the instructor also teaches students to have control in what they do, and react according to threat level.

Rob

[Joseki]

There was an instructor that came over from U.S and he showed use techiques in a system called offencive san soo i cant remember his name or what part he came from but he is always invited to do seminars over here if you want i can find out the details.
I teach ju jitsu and the teachniques we use can be very nasty, but the teachniques he was showing (which were very simple) were VERY VERY nasty

[seekeroftruth]

The most vicious art I have ever experienced is Kino Mutai. It does not stand alone well, but it is great when incorporated into your style. Kino Mutai is the art of gouging, uninterrupted biting, and pinching. Their bites are absolutely disgusting! Let's just say Paul Vunak says that you can bite half of someones face off in about 10 seconds! Just my two cents. Also, Mike Casto and all of The Asian Fighting Arts Team teach some vicious stuff! LOL!

Seeker of Truth

[Sweeet]

Must just be that my friend has a particularily 'vicious' ninjitsu instructor that would rather he doesn't err on the side of caution. Anyway, thanks everyone for the excellent responses.

Sweeet.

[STASH]

Hey, heres a good quote about control:

"The greatest master is one who can in his gentleness break a brick, yet in a fury not break a rice cake" (or something along those lines)

Also, about the whole "viciousness" issue... I agree with Darzeka, viciousness exists only in the mind. To say that one style is more vicious and efficient then another is like saying that one style is better then the other. No style has all the answers, is depends entirely on the fighter.

[Freeform]

An art isn't viscious, its how you do it. Most locking or restraining techniques become bone breakers and killers with a little more speed/power.

Thanx

[TheSanSooStorm]

I myself study Kung Fu San Soo. The technuqe yes is very brutal,very deadly.

[oldshadow]

I used to have guys come into the gym and after watching a sparing section say “that’s OK but we can’t really spar because our techniques are too deadly. We also don’t use gloves because we don’t train for sport.” My answer then and now is fine let’s go. No gloves no rules prove to me you can use all those deadly techniques. Also what makes you think the techniques I train can’t maim or kill. The same arm bar I use to tap someone out can be used to destroy the joint even faster. A choke can be used to kill just as easily. Boxers die even with gloved hands. The list goes on. Vicious is in the fighter not in the rules. I do agree with the fact you can make rules that will leave you unprepared for a NHB fight. I see this a lot in all those schools that don’t spar because they are too deadly. They are fooling themselves. In the past they perfected their techniques in training then when out and refined that skill by fighting people from other schools. All those vicious styles and techniques don’t mean a thing if you can’t use them.

[Sever]

Wow, someone used a big shovel to dig this thread up!