not about size

[marttae]

Ive read that the size of a person doesent matter in hapkido but i tried something i learned on my brother who is a good 100 pounds heaver than me and the hapkido didnt work. Can someone please explain.

[Jointlock]

Ive read that the size of a person doesent matter in hapkido but i tried something i learned on my brother who is a good 100 pounds heaver than me and the hapkido didnt work. Can someone please explain.

:rolleyes:
Several reasons that I can think of:
1. You are most likely a novice and haven't yet learned the techniques properly.

2. You probably chose the technique that you wanted to do and tried it on him. Where in a real situation you have to go with the path of least resistance based on the opponents attack and from constant practice a technique just happens. You have to get to the point to when a person attacks you you don't have to think, "okay I'm going to do an arm bar I twist his arm this way and put my forearm behind his elbow...." an armbar should just happen, otherwise you're going to get punched.

3. Size is an advantage. I'm not saying that the bigger guy will win in every fight but it is just one of many attributes that helps in a fight. Size, technique, stamina, flexibility, attitude, experience, speed, timing, etc are all things that can win or lose a fight for a person. If you lack one you need to improve on the others to overcompensate.

4. I'm assuming you haven't trained with a resisting opponent yet at your school. Once you think you have learned a technique very well ask another student that you know to resist a little bit in partner drills so you can figure out how to make the technique work under pressure.

[Korpy]

Actually, size does matter. My HKD instructors always told me size doesn't matter, but they're plain wrong. And any HKD practioner that tells you size doesn't matter is either lying or delusional.

Size matters almost in any art wheather it be HKD, TKD, BJJ, ect.

[klaasb]

When we say that size doesn't matter, we just mean that the biggest person doesn't necessarily has to be the strongest in a fight.

When a person is very tall you might have to use a different approach to make your technique work, than when fighting someone your own size.

Just as you will have to take in account all other circumstances, size does matter.

[iron_ox]

Actually, size does matter. My HKD instructors always told me size doesn't matter, but they're plain wrong. And any HKD practioner that tells you size doesn't matter is either lying or delusional.

Size matters almost in any art wheather it be HKD, TKD, BJJ, ect.

Hello all,

Very young man, you do not enough experience with Hapkido to make that statement - not even close. I see you have already bailed on Hapkido - was this because the place you were at was not all it was cracked up to be - I'm not going to say I told you so - but you haven't even SEEN Hapkido yet - so try not to pass judgement.

Size DOES not matter with this art - the Founder, Dojunim Choi was not a big man - but a VERY powerful one from all accounts.

Hapkido is based on motion and energy - and while I would agree to a point that size might to some degree dictate the technique that is chosen - Hapkido (and I operate on a very narrow margin as to what this is) techniques can be applied on anyone - regardless of size and strength. I am the case in point - I stand 6'4" and weigh in around 300lbs - and I can tell you from first hand experience that 75 year old adherants to the Choi tradition have moved and locked me up with EASE - against my full resistance.

Now, would I always choose the most powerful technique against the strongest opponent - no, that violates the most basic principles of the art, as both Klaas and Jointlock pointed out.

It is unfortunate that many will accept any "variant" of Hapkido as the art itself - in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Korpy is case in point - I believe that the place he attended had their "Hapkido" program decertified by the Korean Government - Yong In University - and they now call it "Yong Mu Do" - so it is no suprise to me that people that train with "graduates" of this program are often less than satisfied with the result.

Korpy, you are welcome to train at my dojang if you are still interested in seeing what Hapkido is and is not - and I promise, no hours standing in horse stances punching the air, and no acrobatic kicks, both that violate every tenet of the art. I think it would change your perception of Hapkido completely.

[wild_pitch]

My two cents, you have to look at it like a sliding scale.

At the two extremes you have overpowering size and strength with no skill and on the other you have high skill but a small frame. The more skill you have the more ability you have to beat a heavier stronger opponent, but on the other hand for most people there is a tipping point where skill will not win against someone who has a overwhelming physical advantage.

The bottom line the bigger and stronger your opponent is the more skill you are going to need to beat them. So if you have only been training a short time and do not have a lot of skill then someone who has even a small weight advantage is is going to kill you.

That is why the best place you to be is to have both size AND skill. Someone who is strong AND has lots of skill is going to be at the top of their game.

Although I understand that you can look at a founder like Choi and say he was able to beat younger stronger men, and that is all well and good but not everyone who studies Hapkido is going to ever be as good as Choi and most certainly not without many MANY years of training.

I think it is a bit disingenuous to imply that *size doesn't matter* in any MA really. Size can certainly be neutralized to a degree by your skill level but it certainly does matter.

[JimH]

Size does matter,skill matters,Desire,will to win and intent matter,the ability to flip the switch matters.

Training should enable you to avoid situations,if they cannot be avoided and threat of contact is possible then you must act.

If you are grabbed do you have an IMMEDIATE response trained and worked,or will you freeze for a moment,giving the opponent advantage,while you think through your list of possible responses.

Size and skill matter if they get advantage.

If you respond immediately and your move in ,strike,shift the opponents balance,and force them to try to stay upright over striking then you have the advantage,then you can do what you like.

Hapkido is not just about doing locks and throws with kicks and strikes to enter,we enter to gain control,by shifting the opponents knees,hips,sjoulders,head,affect those targets and they will have more to think about than striking you.

If one wants to try and spar a Bigger ,stronger opponent then you will most likely lose.

Gain control of that person,and you can own that person and the situation,these are parts of Hapkido most seem to dismiss and the lack of these skills leads to doubts about usage on bigger,stronger people,but when understood these are the keys that allow the Art of Hapkido to work.

example;
I am grabbed by a bigger person,say cross wrist grab.
He attempts to pull me into a punch,as he pulls I go with it.
I spin into him,bumping him hard creating balance displacement.
I spin to the outside into a bent arm take down,hopefully he is not upright enabling him to use his strength and stop me,to ensure he can not I take my inside leg and downward kick into the side oof his knee,effecting his balance and allowing me to use my takedown without interuption by him trying to strike me,or use strength on me.

Learn all the principles of Hapkido and learn to employ them in immediate response and then you can forget size,or skill of the opponent.

[Tommy-2guns...]

of course size matters, thats why david beat golliath with a slingshot not a wristlock.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Wild Pitch and JimH,

I think, with all due respect that you missed the point of the original question.

Of course training, desire, persistance etc all play a part in the study and application of any martial art - but the question was whether Hapkido technique is DESIGNED to work against someone bigger, and maybe in martae case why it did not.

Now, from the original statement, one can simply say, yes, it is possible that marttae simply does not have enough training, enough experience, sure whatever - I would contend that most of the time OUTSIDE these reasons that the person has just not learned Hapkido - but some other derivation of the same name.

Hapkido is designed to work against anyone - without softening techniques, distractions etc. - the techniques and the principles work on their own...

I will agree that one may be limited in how many ways one can respond to an attack based on experience - sure - but do not mislead martae into thinking that Hapkido itself is not able to deal with this issue.

marttae, my suggestion is to practice WHAT you KNOW in slow motion against a stronger opponent - see how that works - and maybe let us know.

[Angelus]

then again royce took out akibono.
size matters but its far from being as important as skill

[Korpy]

iron_ox if you believe size does not matter, not only are arguing physics and basic human anatomy, but you sound a bit mcdojoish.

While some arts like BJJ, Judo, and HKD all allow the smaller guy to do better, size DOES matter. To say it doesn't, then you are lying to yourself. And if you have to lie to yourself to defend your art, that is truly sad.

I'm sorry, but you wont be doing any standing wrist locks to heavyweight BJJ practioners. :rolleyes:

[Cuchulain4]

If size didnt matter then their would be no need for weight classes in combat sports.

[JimH]

quote Ironox
"Hapkido is designed to work against anyone - without softening techniques, distractions etc. - the techniques and the principles work on their own"

Yes Hapkido can be used as a stand alone,in certain instances,immediate response to a surprise attack or use on a semi compliant person but once we enter the realm of non compliance or delayed response to initial attack then we must resort to techniques which are basic to Hapkido,early aikido,Daito ryu,Strikes and softening techniques.

If we say Hapkido is stand alone and the joint locks, throws and takedowns can always be done without softening or balance displacement then we are talking later day aikido as taught by Ueshiba and seen in many of todays Aikido schools.(In my opinion)

In Daito Ryu strikes and attacks are part of the response at the same time or prior to application of technique as well as after,finishing moves.

If we look at some schools of Aikido that stress or employ striking we also see strikes made simultameous to technique or prior to as well as after as finishing techniques.

If we look at Judo we see the need to move into the opponent with force to upset the balance before we enter a technique or throw.

In all we see the concept and balance displacement,hapkido is no different,we train to execute strikes,kicks and hand strikes,be they distractions,key strikes,or limb attacks we are using striking and attempting to displace the opponents balance,this is for any opponent,if we move to bigger opponents the balance shift becomes more desired.

If I have anyone who attacks or grabs me My first response is effect their balance.
example:
Same side wrist grab
The opponent grabs me,(what is the intent?) to pull me into a strike or just hold me to strike.
I move into my opponent,slightly to the outside of the grabbing limb
This puts me in position of not being struck by the other arm,it also shortens his extended arm,the twist of the wrist shortens his bicep and his balance is displaced,he must move his head out away from over his center,I have not struck or done anything yet and I have negated his ability to respond.
Now I can twist and he will go down,not only due to pain compliance but also due to loss of balance.
Now when the opponent goes down,I have done nothing to zap his strength to make him less likely to fight,I still have a full strength opponent willing to fight only know he is on the ground,probaly attempting to get me down there.

If on the other hand simultaneous to twisting his wrist,I crush his knee from the side,I have caused ,more balance loss and given measurable pain,taken out some of the fight,made doing the technique very easy and probably stopped him from chasing me once I leave.

I understand your point in this discussion,and am not attacking your point as I believe it is doable without strikes in certain instances.
But
If we train limited responses with strikes and softening,then we will most likely not use them when times require the use of those techniques.
(as in with a Bigger person)

To me,I stress strikes and balance displacement against everyone we decide to use our art against.

Again this is just dialogue to encourage thought,no attacks or disrespect intended.

[french fri25]

the only thing i can think of is that you didnt use motion. hkd is a very fluid art. you have to use your opponents energy against them by redirecting it the way you want it to go.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Ive read that the size of a person doesent matter in hapkido but i tried something i learned on my brother who is a good 100 pounds heaver than me and the hapkido didnt work. Can someone please explain.

I have seen people do Hapkido against someone who out weights them by 100 lbs and it does work, but it takes a lot of practice to get to that point.

[marttae]

Thanks
you guys are right.
Iam novice to this art and probably dont have the techiniques right yet.
Thanks alot.

[Blade3]

Actually, size does matter. My HKD instructors always told me size doesn't matter, but they're plain wrong. And any HKD practioner that tells you size doesn't matter is either lying or delusional.

Size matters almost in any art wheather it be HKD, TKD, BJJ, ect.

Hi Korpy, Let's see.....A red belt, I remember when you first start asking about HKD just a couple of summers ago and were taking your first classes and now at the tender age of 17 & a couple of years experience you seem to know more than most about HKD & how a hapkidoist will get beat by a Muay Thai fighter, etc;

NOT TRUE!! I will say that size does make a difference in most cases but depending on the place & circumstances.

Korpy when the summer that you were born I was a 175 lb. doorman at various clubs in Philly and on a few occaisions put the hurt on guys much bigger than myself................Using Shotokan, my first experience was in TKD for 3 months and then Ninjuitsu for a year, then after a year off I started in Shotokan (4 years) & by green belt I thought that I could tell others who'd been training and FIGHTING since 1963 that things were different and what WORKED & what DIDN'T. :D

I've used hapkido against MT, BJJ, San Sou, Boxers, & others in class enviroment and sometimes I've won sometimes I lost but it was fun and a learning experience but understand your hkd school was just probably not that good...Plain & Simple, because by red belt you should be able to hold your own against most guys with a similar time frame in training.

Also if I'm attacked by a Bob Sapp type of guy I'd be going for low kick to the shins & knees in his groin & all kinds of hits to the throat or maybe a weapon, I might have to do some time but you cannot let someone that size & with that strength start pounding on you......Cause they can #*%k you up real badd. :eek:

[Korpy]

And here come the stories of "Oh I beat a BJJ fighter, a Sanshou fighter, and a Sambo fighter with HKD... D3@dly!!!"

MAde up stories don't prove anyhting.

Size does matter, if you say no, you're deluding yourself.

[wild_pitch]

And here come the stories of "Oh I beat a BJJ fighter, a Sanshou fighter, and a Sambo fighter with HKD... D3@dly!!!"

MAde up stories don't prove anyhting.

Size does matter, if you say no, you're deluding yourself.

You obviously have some reading comprehension problems... since he in fact said;

"I will say that size does make a difference in most cases but depending on the place & circumstances."

and

"I've used hapkido against MT, BJJ, San Sou, Boxers, & others in class enviroment and sometimes I've won sometimes I lost but it was fun and a learning experience.."

You newly minted nut riders are so cute...

[Jointlock]

And here come the stories of "Oh I beat a BJJ fighter, a Sanshou fighter, and a Sambo fighter with HKD... D3@dly!!!"

MAde up stories don't prove anyhting.

Size does matter, if you say no, you're deluding yourself.

Read his post. He did say size makes a difference. People can only control their size to a certain point. Good luck getting taller. People have to make the most of what they naturally have. If I am forced to defend myself against a bigger guy I'm not just going to lay down and say "Oh, you are bigger than me there is no point in fighting back please kick me sensless"

YES, SIZE MATTERS! So does technique, so does speed, so does violence of action. Smaller people beat bigger people all of the time because of their skill in other areas. Size is one of many possible advantages.

On the issue of Hapkido can't compare to BJJ or Thai boxing. WHO CARES! How many times have you had to defend yourself against Chuck Liddell or Matt Hughes. How many times has anyone been attacked by a seasoned martial artist? I may be generalizing here but for the most part people who put their time into doing martial arts well are not the same people out there mugging and kiddnapping people. I'd say at least 80 to 90% of martial artists out there are good people.

I don't know about you but I am fairly confident in my ability to defend myself. I train hard and serious and I do the same for my students. I love watching UFC and Pride, but I will never get involved with that. That is not the life style that I chose. Can those guys beat me, hell yeah, they train 8 hours a day and get beat on all the time, they should be able to beat me. Can unemployed Joe Crackhead that ends up sitting on his ass in jail every other week beat me, maybe but I like my odds.

[wild_pitch]

On the issue of Hapkido can't compare to BJJ or Thai boxing. WHO CARES! How many times have you had to defend yourself against Chuck Liddell or Matt Hughes. How many times has anyone been attacked by a seasoned martial artist?

I don't personally agree with this statement. I don't see why someone who trains hapkido in a live and effective manner should not be able to hold his own against other seasoned martial artists.

Granted fighting Chuck or Matt or any other pro you are going to get killed but there is no reason why you should not be able to at least hold your own against another MAist.

[RunningDog]

BJJ, Judo, and HKD all allow the smaller guy to do better,

Mentioning HDK in the same sentence as Judo and BJJ again, will result in a plague upon you and all your kind. kthnxbye

[wild_pitch]

Mentioning HDK in the same sentence as Judo and BJJ again, will result in a plague upon you and all your kind. kthnxbye

Because BJJ, Judo and Hapkido do not all share common roots?

[Jointlock]

I don't personally agree with this statement. I don't see why someone who trains hapkido in a live and effective manner should not be able to hold his own against other seasoned martial artists.

Granted fighting Chuck or Matt or any other pro you are going to get killed but there is no reason why you should not be able to at least hold your own against another MAist.

I really wasn't trying to say that a Hapkidoist couldn't hold his/her own against another martial artist from those or any other art. Although, rereading it, it does kind of sound that way. What I was trying to get across is that people are always measuring martial arts against each other, but now a days your opponent will most likely not be another martial artist unless you're in the ring.

[tekkengod]

Ive read that the size of a person doesent matter in hapkido but i tried something i learned on my brother who is a good 100 pounds heaver than me and the hapkido didnt work. Can someone please explain.

someone lied to you

[Blade3]

And here come the stories of "Oh I beat a BJJ fighter, a Sanshou fighter, and a Sambo fighter with HKD... D3@dly!!!"

MAde up stories don't prove anyhting.

Size does matter, if you say no, you're deluding yourself.

See I tried to be nice.....But I see that your an idiot. I have a son 2 years older than you & still I tried to make some sense with a teenage fool. :bang:

Screw you in your nose KRAPY!!! I never claimed to be too deadly for anyone but in my 40 years of life I've been around and have had a chance to spar/roll with guys in various styles and I've had my share of street fights from my teens up into early adult hood. I grew up in rough area & had to learn to hold mine early, also while working as a doorman/bouncer I'd better had known how to hold my own, and while working in that profession I've been stabbed, hit with bottles, chairs & threatend every time I had tell some fool to leave..(LOL) You're not even of legal drinking age and you're popping that $^^!T to me? Once again screw you punk, I know who the hell I am and where I'm form and KNOW 4 A FACT that your @$$ could'nt survive there little boy.

AS I SAID B4 I remember your early post of: I'll be testing 4 my YELLOW belt & can someone give me some pointers. People were real patient with you & gave advice as they knew it and now in less than 2 years you know more than most.

YOU ARE FULL OF HORSE $#!T BOY!!! Your post from MARCH 2006 titled UBER NERVOUS cracks me up, You came on talking about your HKD instructor putting you in a MMA fight in less than a month and blah blah blah, & while posting there Dark Jester & a few others pulled your HO CARD! So how did your match go cause you failed to respond after page 8, also why'd ya' not train cause your little girl friend broke up with you? That's because YOU MAke up Stories that Prove Nothing!

Take a good look at one your first post titled VERY NERVOUS!!!

YOU R THE 1 THAT's DELUSIONAL & MAKE STUFF UP....KRAPPY I mean korpy.

So now, share your wack opinions with your new teacher and his other......ONE student :D

[Stevebjj]

Blade, dude. Step away from the keyboard! Slowly! Seriously, you might want to tone it down a little before the mods swoop in!

[Blade3]

Blade, dude. Step away from the keyboard! Slowly! Seriously, you might want to tone it down a little before the mods swoop in!

You're right but this kid belongs on toolshido with those full time trolls over there. :D

[tekkengod]

wow its gotta be that serious :rolleyes: we should all respect his right to be an internet bad ass using the logic of a 12 yr old bible thumper

[wild_pitch]

Screw you in your nose KRAPY!!!

Now that is some good smack talkin' there.. ;)

[Korpy]

lol at Blade3.

Wannabe tough guy, delusional fool, thinking HKD is all he needs to take on anyone, and starting fights cause he's got nothing better to do.

Get a life man, I just hope that you didn't cancel any plans just to fight with me.

[Tommy-2guns...]

Blade3 - shut up, your being an insulting eejit, if you take an argument this personally on a internet forum you have some poor coping skills.

Size matters,it is illogical to think otherwise, it isnt the be all and end all but it is quite obvious that size is one of the major factors of fighting efficiency.

how dare you come here, and laugh at korpy for being nervous, have you never been nervous?or are immune to this common mental function?

how do you know what he has done in past 2 years? and how can you stand there, a fully grown man at 40 talk in childish internet speak in a verry insulting manner breaking the T.O.S several times and expect a post to be considered seriously.

now if you wish calmly bring his MMA fight into contention,do so at your will, but bear in mind when you break into the 'Im a badass ghetto bouncer whos beat the street' you wont get much backing which you COULD have had if you reasoned your argument.

mate having a two year old son doesnt excuse acting like him.

'ave a word with yourself.

[hanakuso]

Hapkido is designed to work against anyone - without softening techniques, distractions etc. - the techniques and the principles work on their own...

but do not mislead martae into thinking that Hapkido itself is not able to deal with this issue.


I think it's this kind of attitude that gives martial arts a bad name. This is why so many people see MAs as silly posturing by adults who should have something more practical to do.

Nothing "works" by itself. No "art" has ever beaten another human or kept someone's *ss in one piece. Human beings punch, kick, elbow, slam, and break each other, not disembodied "arts. " Are some methods of preparing people to fight/leave/protect themselves more efficienct and effective than others? That's the $64,000.00 question, but anyone who says "this works" or "that works" is full of it and making a bad name for everyone else.

[hanakuso]

See I tried to be nice.....But I see that your an idiot. I have a son 2 years older than you & still I tried to make some sense with a teenage fool. :bang:

Screw you in your nose KRAPY!!! I never claimed to be too deadly for anyone but in my 40 years of life I've been around and have had a chance to spar/roll with guys in various styles and I've had my share of street fights from my teens up into early adult hood. I grew up in rough area & had to learn to hold mine early, also while working as a doorman/bouncer I'd better had known how to hold my own, and while working in that profession I've been stabbed, hit with bottles, chairs & threatend every time I had tell some fool to leave..(LOL) You're not even of legal drinking age and you're popping that $^^!T to me? Once again screw you punk, I know who the hell I am and where I'm form and KNOW 4 A FACT that your @$$ could'nt survive there little boy.

AS I SAID B4 I remember your early post of: I'll be testing 4 my YELLOW belt & can someone give me some pointers. People were real patient with you & gave advice as they knew it and now in less than 2 years you know more than most.

YOU ARE FULL OF HORSE $#!T BOY!!! Your post from MARCH 2006 titled UBER NERVOUS cracks me up, You came on talking about your HKD instructor putting you in a MMA fight in less than a month and blah blah blah, & while posting there Dark Jester & a few others pulled your HO CARD! So how did your match go cause you failed to respond after page 8, also why'd ya' not train cause your little girl friend broke up with you? That's because YOU MAke up Stories that Prove Nothing!

Take a good look at one your first post titled VERY NERVOUS!!!

YOU R THE 1 THAT's DELUSIONAL & MAKE STUFF UP....KRAPPY I mean korpy.

So now, share your wack opinions with your new teacher and his other......ONE student :D


?????????????????????????????

Did you say you were 40, or 14? :rolleyes:

[iron_ox]

I think it's this kind of attitude that gives martial arts a bad name. This is why so many people see MAs as silly posturing by adults who should have something more practical to do.

Nothing "works" by itself. No "art" has ever beaten another human or kept someone's *ss in one piece. Human beings punch, kick, elbow, slam, and break each other, not disembodied "arts. " Are some methods of preparing people to fight/leave/protect themselves more efficienct and effective than others? That's the $64,000.00 question, but anyone who says "this works" or "that works" is full of it and making a bad name for everyone else.

Hello all,

The original issue is whether Hapkido could/would work against a larger person - and bottom line - it does - yes, of course there are several other factors that play into it - but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen - to try and explain this art to someone makes me what "posturing"?

What rank do you have in Hapkido - DO NOT presume to lecture anyone on an art they have studied most their lives.

I am fully of the belief that the VAST majority of fighting systems will prepare anyone to protect themselves - but they are things that need to be studied with diligence - yes, there are technical aspects of many arts that are quick fixes - and Hapkido is no exception - but to say that I give this art a bad name by telling someone that technically the art will stand up to the rigors of combating someone of greater size is simply insulting.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Blade3, et all,

Don't let a child get the better of you. While you and I may have to agree to disagree that size is a factor in Hapkido technically, this is the focus of this thread - not a kid that has NEVER actually done Hapkido.

You must remember that pop culture today tries to relegate any art that is not part of a challenge match to substandard, while trying to make others beleive that anyone can fight like the men they see weekly in the ring.

You know full well that training is just that, training, and long training is no substitute for exercising one's fingers on some little keys. You and I have both been doormen - you know that challenge there - most often to end a fight before it starts - look at this the same way - children are often dazzled and confused by what they see in the martial arts, and it is a better thing to tell them so then try to argue with them as if they understand what they are saying.

[tekkengod]

You must remember that pop culture today tries to relegate any art that is not part of a challenge match to substandard, while trying to make others beleive that anyone can fight like the men they see weekly in the ring

i wonder why that is :rolleyes:

what lead you to believe every kid thinks their the next cro cop? :confused:
i get the opposite response "screw that" "you're crazy"

[hanakuso]

Hello all,

The original issue is whether Hapkido could/would work against a larger person - and bottom line - it does - yes, of course there are several other factors that play into it - but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen - to try and explain this art to someone makes me what "posturing"?

What rank do you have in Hapkido - DO NOT presume to lecture anyone on an art they have studied most their lives.

I am fully of the belief that the VAST majority of fighting systems will prepare anyone to protect themselves - but they are things that need to be studied with diligence - yes, there are technical aspects of many arts that are quick fixes - and Hapkido is no exception - but to say that I give this art a bad name by telling someone that technically the art will stand up to the rigors of combating someone of greater size is simply insulting.



Good job missing the point entirely. :rolleyes:


I'll try this again. Read slowly, seek outside assistance if necessary:


Nothing "works" by itself. No "art" has ever beaten another human or kept someone's *ss in one piece. Human beings punch, kick, elbow, slam, and break each other, not disembodied "arts. "

And since this simple truth seems beyond someone's comprehension, let me add:

If someone lacks a certain level of athleticism, aggression, dexterity, or other fundamental mental/physical attributes, then they can 'study' hapkido, boxing, karate, wrestling, hung-gar, taijiquan, etc. for 50 years and they will still be a poor bet in a physical confrontation (particularly against someone bigger and stronger whether trained or not). This type of person feels more and more comfortable as they get older and the likelihood of being called on what they claim to be able to do diminishes. Just hide in the dojang and tick off the years, imagining this means something more than it does.

People struggle against one another, not 'arts.'

[Tommy-2guns...]

Hello all,

Blade3, et all,

Don't let a child get the better of you. While you and I may have to agree to disagree that size is a factor in Hapkido technically, this is the focus of this thread - not a kid that has NEVER actually done Hapkido.

You must remember that pop culture today tries to relegate any art that is not part of a challenge match to substandard, while trying to make others beleive that anyone can fight like the men they see weekly in the ring.

You know full well that training is just that, training, and long training is no substitute for exercising one's fingers on some little keys. You and I have both been doormen - you know that challenge there - most often to end a fight before it starts - look at this the same way - children are often dazzled and confused by what they see in the martial arts, and it is a better thing to tell them so then try to argue with them as if they understand what they are saying.

I like the way your refer to the sensible poster as the child, yet the one who blew his steam, threw toys out the pram and reverted insults as the adult.that obviously makes sense does it not?

I dont understand the revelervance to your child in awe analogy, are you supposing ignorance of Korpy?.

personally i feel pop culture is the opposite to your view, i beleive many non martial artists beleive that size is not an issue if someone has done martial arts,which is clearly not true. as i culture i feel we have been taught by various mediums that a man with martial arts training will help you defat many or larger attacks with ease. the influenece(mainly media based)has (i beleive) has been capitalised and abused by many schools and led them to making such claims as size doesnt matter or strenghth doesent matter, however i beleive prior to this martial arts were probably more pragmatic in terms of size/strength limitations.

Blade 3 needs to grow up, and you shouldnt be encouraging his childishness and supporting him with patronising insults about someone who has been posting appropriatly.

[iron_ox]

I like the way your refer to the sensible poster as the child, yet the one who blew his steam, threw toys out the pram and reverted insults as the adult.that obviously makes sense does it not?

I dont understand the revelervance to your child in awe analogy, are you supposing ignorance of Korpy?.

personally i feel pop culture is the opposite to your view, i beleive many non martial artists beleive that size is not an issue if someone has done martial arts,which is clearly not true. as i culture i feel we have been taught by various mediums that a man with martial arts training will help you defat many or larger attacks with ease. the influenece(mainly media based)has (i beleive) has been capitalised and abused by many schools and led them to making such claims as size doesnt matter or strenghth doesent matter, however i beleive prior to this martial arts were probably more pragmatic in terms of size/strength limitations.

Blade 3 needs to grow up, and you shouldnt be encouraging his childishness and supporting him with patronising insults about someone who has been posting appropriatly.


Hello all,

I know I am going to regret this - but how old are you - and in that case how much pop culture have you been exposed to - try not to be insulted, but it is very relevant here.

I ask this becasue when I grew up, there was a MUCH different view of martial arts in general than there is today, or for the last 2 decades for that matter.

[Korpy]

For the record I am not bashing HKD.

It gave me:

1) A good base of striking

2) A basic understanding of joint locks (which translated into BJJ when I studied it)

3) How to work against bigger people

4) Good conditoning

I can go on about how HKD is a good art, and I recomend it to anyone who wants to learn about self defense.

But I will not let some person think that size does not matter. If someone outweighs me by alot and attacks me, I'm not gonna go in and try a wrist lock or a throw. I'll strike from a safe distance and try to get away.

It depends on alot of things, but size (height and weight) definatly does matter, and not every HKD technique will work. You'd have to quickly adapt to the situation.

[Tommy-2guns...]

Not a problem mate,im 18, therefore i beleive more involved with pop culture than not. i understand its relevernacetoday as people of the older generations were exposed to the kung fu boom, the 80's ninjitsu craze'the karate kid years' will have known it previously.

in years gone by during the 'fads' of martial arts in the media of course they would be more socialised towards the smaller 'kung fu' guy wins ethos but i think it is still prevalent today(think tony jaa,newer jet li), although my generation has the ever expanding combat sports scene coming at it full pelt and has many morons riding its sucsess and preaching it as gospel i think its infulence has not yet reached a peak where it competes with the view of traditional martial arts being the deciding factor in any altercation.

I think as a younger male, who has followed the martial arts, I am up to date with the current trends of what young martial artists are thinking by way of following numerous message boards, talking to guys of different styles, i have been exposed to the modern martial arts films,games,literature therefore i feel myself qualified to talk on pop culture as it stands at this moment.

now i guess you probably perceive me as some young combat sport nuthugging eejit to join this debate and come into contention with older stylists however i felt that i should have made comment on Blade3's post as it was directly in breach of T.O.s and good manners and also i felt i had an issue with the view size does not matter - which i know you do not directly hold yourself.

As for you, i think your take on calling Korpy child was meant in a patronising manner but if i am wrong please do correct me as on forum boards it is often hard to tell the patronising and sarcastic from the sincere.

by the way Iron-ox the comment of the childish beahvaiour at the start of my last posts paragraph was intended for Blade3 not you so i apologise if you thought it was.

what is your view on current pop culture and its influence on the laymans view on martial arts?

cheers

Tommy

[Blade3]

Blade3 - shut up, your being an insulting eejit, if you take an argument this personally on a internet forum you have some poor coping skills.

Size matters,it is illogical to think otherwise, it isnt the be all and end all but it is quite obvious that size is one of the major factors of fighting efficiency.

how dare you come here, and laugh at korpy for being nervous, have you never been nervous?or are immune to this common mental function?

how do you know what he has done in past 2 years? and how can you stand there, a fully grown man at 40 talk in childish internet speak in a verry insulting manner breaking the T.O.S several times and expect a post to be considered seriously.

now if you wish calmly bring his MMA fight into contention,do so at your will, but bear in mind when you break into the 'Im a badass ghetto bouncer whos beat the street' you wont get much backing which you COULD have had if you reasoned your argument.

mate having a two year old son doesnt excuse acting like him.

'ave a word with yourself.


Shut up? Look I apologize to anyone on MAP for my out burst.
What I was trying to say was I've been around and have had my share of rumbles in my younger years and had employment as a bouncer so I've had some experience in dealing with different types of people under various circumstances AND like in my first post I clearly explained that and that when I was korpy's age I TOO THOUGHT THAT I KNEW MUCH BETTER THAN THE 30-50 YEAR AGED MEN who had 15 to 30 years in the martial arts.

Now that said, we did'nt have the internet back then so you had to say what you felt face to face, whether in the dojo/dojang or at a seminar and then those guys would say okay then let's see what ya' got & trust me youth & strength did'nt work too well on them. :o

Why cause they'd been around a long time and learned a lot, but were also willing to share what they learned so I stopped talking long enough to sponge off them and show some respect.

As far as being a bad @$$, I never said that or anything about a GHETTO :confused: so how'd you invoke that into the subject?

How do I know he has two years experience? Because I remember his earlier post and his HUMBLY asking questions about testing in HKD and his First match (supposedly) in an mma venue and last.....My oldest son is 2 YEARS OLDER than korpy, (not 2 years old) & since up until 18 I taught him everthing he needed to know when it came to dealing with bullies, now he's out on his own and has been training in Judo & kick boxing .

After months of hearing about what works & what & what does'nt from the kid I taught to fight, I flew out to GA to visit him and I sparred with him & his buddies, guess what? I waxed them, I was very impressed with their youth and ideas but they have along way to go :D . My boy seems to be the little ring leader in their group so I just totally had to turn up the heat on him and it was pretty funny, AND they were humbled but......They had to throw in well you would'nt be able to do that to our Teacher or Mr. So & so our senior BB and yadda, yadda, yap yap.

Well maybe not but I did it to them. :p

So now mate have a word with yourself before you start a post to someone telling them to shut up because you may have taken an internet arument personal...That was not even addressed to you.

Have a good day.

[Blade3]

lol at Blade3.

Wannabe tough guy, delusional fool, thinking HKD is all he needs to take on anyone, and starting fights cause he's got nothing better to do.

Get a life man, I just hope that you didn't cancel any plans just to fight with me.

Ok Korpy, I'm not going to continue with this I apologize for my insults in my previous post...TRUCE?

Now all I tried to convey (IN A NUTSHELL) was in 10 years your going to have a different out look on things and 13 years from there there's not going to be much that you have'nt already seen or heard of.

When you get to college take a job as a bouncer at some of the local college parties & some of the clubs in town......I gurantee that you'll get to engage with a little bit of every thing i.e.; football players, (size & strength) basket ball players, (hight & reach along with stamina) local knuckle heads (maybe gang bangers, bikers, or anyone who's used to fighting & being in & outta the system or will sneak a weapon outta no where, i.e.; razor, ice pick, small knife, big buck knife,mace,epsom salt,sand,bottles, a gun, etc;)

This does not make me a bad @$$ but....I met lot's of girls & got into parties & clubs FREE in those days and had lot's of fun doing it then my wife MADE me quit when I first got married.....I guess I was'nt so tough. :D

I say none of this to brag, but I did grow up in a rough area which was the little Italy section town that was ethnically diverse...In that every group of people there had their share of equal oppurtunity trouble makers :p

So I learned to stand up for myself or become a contiual victim it's that simple and if you were residing there Korpy you'd have to do the same thing or you would'nt survive but....You probably would & that's why your still searching for your niche in a good system and that's why at 15 I was tired of having to deal with 19 to 22 year old losers in my area that wanted to hang outside of our high school & try to start something with us.

Trust me a year in the ma's stopped a lot of that stuff before it could start ;)

Take care Korpy & I hope you find what you're looking for in the arts.

[Tommy-2guns...]

blade3 you apologised so i have no issue *Shakes hand*.

[Blade3]

blade3 you apologised so i have no issue *Shakes hand*.


Hand shake my friend.

[iron_ox]

Not a problem mate,im 18, therefore i beleive more involved with pop culture than not. i understand its relevernacetoday as people of the older generations were exposed to the kung fu boom, the 80's ninjitsu craze'the karate kid years' will have known it previously.

I totally agree here - except I go back a little farther. I remember the Karate Blast of the early 70's (which transitioned into the Kung Fu Craze). I am also lucky(?) enough to remember when Judo was still part of several school programs (buddy from Dulwich College did Judo in elementary school). And, I even went to the first Shidoshi Hayes seminar in the UK...my point is that when I first became aware of MA it was mainly "Big" guys (no women at all - except in Judo) - strong and big was the rule - the bigger and stronger the better - in fact, if you were small, you were encouraged to build strength for better technique...stronger was always better...

Kung Fu, especially in the late 70's early 80's changed many peoples perception of this.

in years gone by during the 'fads' of martial arts in the media of course they would be more socialised towards the smaller 'kung fu' guy wins ethos but i think it is still prevalent today(think tony jaa,newer jet li), agreed

although my generation has the ever expanding combat sports scene coming at it full pelt and has many morons riding its sucsess and preaching it as gospel i think its infulence has not yet reached a peak where it competes with the view of traditional martial arts being the deciding factor in any altercation.

Honestly, I don't follow MMA closely, so I can't comment on its effectiveness outside the sporting arena - except to feel that Hapkido is not compitable as a sporting art.

I think as a younger male, who has followed the martial arts, I am up to date with the current trends of what young martial artists are thinking by way of following numerous message boards, talking to guys of different styles, i have been exposed to the modern martial arts films,games,literature therefore i feel myself qualified to talk on pop culture as it stands at this moment.

I agree here completely, and I think that the nature and perception of MA in general has changed significantly in the last 15 years. I remember when (as a strange example) that MA literature had its own section in book stores - now, in many cases, I find them next to the WWE mags on the bottom shelves of sports racks - so, in many ways I think the attitude has changed for the negative.

now i guess you probably perceive me as some young combat sport nuthugging eejit

Not at all, there is a difference in presenting a well thoughtout argument, regardless of knowledge of an art, to present a point of view. I appreciate anyone doing this.

to join this debate and come into contention with older stylists however i felt that i should have made comment on Blade3's post as it was directly in breach of T.O.s and good manners and also i felt i had an issue with the view size does not matter - which i know you do not directly hold yourself.

I agree again, and I will say for myself that I know at times that what someone says and how its said does not always translate well in writing. In terms of my exposure to this art, I am just shy of 30 years of training in Hapkido - and I have a very narrow definintion of what I think Hapkido is. After this many years of research and training, I feel entitled to this opinion. Again, I felt that I was answering a specific question at the beginning of this post where a Hapkido student wanted to know if the techniques they were doing worked in a particular way - and I know technically they do. Please understand that this is not a knee jerk reaction - but based on training and experience.

As for you, i think your take on calling Korpy child was meant in a patronising manner but if i am wrong please do correct me as on forum boards it is often hard to tell the patronising and sarcastic from the sincere.

I didn't mean to offend anyone - BUT - Korpy spent MONTHS telling us about his search for Hapkido, then everything that happened - including some very questionable things - like his first instructor quitting. I am all too well aquainted with where he went to train - and tried as gently as I could to tell him there could be issues - ignored, oh well. In any case, fast forward a few months and now he is a "Kung Fu" devotee - and basically, with a breath of training under his belt telling all that Hapkido instuctors quote:

"Actually, size does matter. My HKD instructors always told me size doesn't matter, but they're plain wrong. And any HKD practioner that tells you size doesn't matter is either lying or delusional."

For someone who has so little experience in an art to make such a statement is very questionable. My position is that only an immature person would think like this with so little exposure to Hapkido - and in my opinion he has never seen the art where he trained in any case - again, not to cause an issue - I told him this months ago.

by the way Iron-ox the comment of the childish beahvaiour at the start of my last posts paragraph was intended for Blade3 not you so i apologise if you thought it was.

I want to apologize to anyone that mis-interpreted the fact that I am trying to speak from experience in Hapkido - and was speaking technically about the validity of the art...I don;t personally know any of you - so how can I have an issue with anyone in a chat room. Got to know someone first to have that kind of feeling.

what is your view on current pop culture and its influence on the laymans view on martial arts?

cheers

Tommy

Again, I think that the laymans view has been changed significantly - I think at times for the worse - but I really try to speak only for the art that I train in and teach - if I haven't made that clear. It is really unfortunate that Hapkido has so many frauds and wannabees - hey, I see the benefit of MMA as simple in this regard - if you cannot put up on the mat, you're not goona last long. Hapkido is not this way - we (Hapkido folks) have to deal with things like the Yong-In University "Hapkido" Grads - really big here in Illinois and especially in Chicago land. That is a rant for another thread - but it is so hard to make anyone see what this art is really about when most people have never even seen it...oh well.

Tommy, thanks for reponding in such a thoughtful way. I hope you find everything you are looking for from the MA and that the arts you do are the best for you.
If you are ever find yourself in Chicago, please stop by my dojang, its always better to see folks face to face. I see you are going to university soon - well, from someone that spent 10 years getting a BA - I can only say treat University like a bad meal - get in and out as fast as possible and try to avoid the aftertaste. :)

[Tommy-2guns...]

thankyou for the kind reply, and i totally agree with you, WWE magazines have NO place next to martial arts magazine, and theres even a magazine over here that combines the two in some kind of unholy union!

all the best, and im sorry you had to live through the kung fu boom all those bad movies,you poor man!!

And if the wind blows west and i do end up in chicago you bet your ass ill come have a go at hapkido, ill have a go at anything if its available. i hope your art looses its frauds as do i wish that on them all but its inevitable with anything in life really but maybe tighter regulation or better public awarness is the key here.

anyway,thankyou for taking the time to adress each point.

regards

Tommy

[Tommy-2guns...]

Also, they should bring back the judo school programme! its funny to think that theres a kind of judo boom again(well BJJ) maybe we'll keep going full circle? if we do, then in 10 years we have a whole bucket load of ninjitsu,ninja's and frank dux's to come!

[g-bells]

Big guys kick ass :D

[marttae]

Good job missing the point entirely. :rolleyes:


I'll try this again. Read slowly, seek outside assistance if necessary:


Nothing "works" by itself. No "art" has ever beaten another human or kept someone's *ss in one piece. Human beings punch, kick, elbow, slam, and break each other, not disembodied "arts. "

And since this simple truth seems beyond someone's comprehension, let me add:

If someone lacks a certain level of athleticism, aggression, dexterity, or other fundamental mental/physical attributes, then they can 'study' hapkido, boxing, karate, wrestling, hung-gar, taijiquan, etc. for 50 years and they will still be a poor bet in a physical confrontation (particularly against someone bigger and stronger whether trained or not). This type of person feels more and more comfortable as they get older and the likelihood of being called on what they claim to be able to do diminishes. Just hide in the dojang and tick off the years, imagining this means something more than it does.

People struggle against one another, not 'arts.'Im a little confused on what your saying.
So your saying that if someone studied a martial art for say 10yrs they still wouldnt be able to hold there ground because thay lack agresion(sp) athletism and ext? And by saying they lack athletism I dont mean over weight.

[hanakuso]

Im a little confused on what your saying.
So your saying that if someone studied a martial art for say 10yrs they still wouldnt be able to hold there ground because thay lack agresion(sp) athletism and ext? And by saying they lack athletism I dont mean over weight.


It would depend on the person. Just because someone does something for ten years doesn't mean he can't still suck at it. Some folks seem to think that learning X number of 'moves' and such bestows some magic power. People fight. Some people suck at fighting, some people are stupid, some people are uncoordinated, etc. That's life.

[marttae]

It would depend on the person. Just because someone does something for ten years doesn't mean he can't still suck at it. Some folks seem to think that learning X number of 'moves' and such bestows some magic power. People fight. Some people suck at fighting, some people are stupid, some people are uncoordinated, etc. That's life.
Well if after ten years and you still suck at ma.
I think that person would start thinking about a different instructor!
haha

[hanakuso]

Or a different MA.



and he might be sh*t outta luck in any case.

[Hapkid0ist]

Every factor plays varying roles, some more so than others. Reguardless of what system or technique, a person will have a difficult time executing any technique if they are a novice or the technique or principles of any art are new to them.

[laz001]

Wow!! This is quite an intense thread!!!

I'm currently a blue belt in Hapkido, i've been training for about 3 years now. I train in a small class, my teacher, Matt is a second degree, a really huge guy, 6'4 ish, 17 stone i'd say, and a carpenter, so damn strong.

I have a grading coming next week, and i have been traning hard for it. We had a final lesson to practise, and our school doojonim, Marc turned up for the lesson to watch the class and help out with any problems. I performed my defenses to my current attack form with my partner who is about my size, and did it quite well. At the end, marc said, 'ok, i notice that your using a bit too much "grrr" force to make your techniques work. That's fine against someone your own size, but try it on Matt', my class instructor, who is as i mentioned, huge.

I tried, and failed and Matt overpowered me. Marc said because I am going a bit too directly, against a larger, stronger person, you will lose, and proceeded to show me how to tip the odds in my favour.

If matt is choking me from the front, attacking his arm and going directly into him for an attack is foolish, he is too big. Wrong choice of defence.

Instead, secure the arm, step back, tugging him slightly forward and down. Then hook the leg as he steps forward to regain balance. No leg there to stand on, balance gone, opponents mind on something else, technique then works. Simple, minimal force, quick.

The message is, size DOES matter, but, a key lesson i've learnt is size has NOTHING to do with balance. If you are off balance, it doesn't matter how strong you are, how tall you are, how big you are, you only have two size 11 feet to balance on. Mess that up, and your opponent can be taken down easily. Like one of BJJ's prinicipals "position before submission", I think hapkido's equivilant would be "Balance before technique"

[JimH]

Laz001,
While going straight up the center ,with both peoples centers towards each other,the bigger,stronger or faster my gain the upper hand and displace your balance.

The concept of Stepping backward grabbing and forcing the opponent down is good in training,the person choking and pushing forward can gain on you as they move faster forward than you do back and they already have forward momentum in their favor.

Try stepping,moving or turning SLIGHTLY to one side or the other allowing the opponents forward energy to carry them forward,with you out of the way,with you disrupting their balance.

Too many stand center line to center line,when moving off line works better.

[laz001]

Thanks Jim, it's good to learn. Using footwork to do the 'work' is something we work on a lot, and i'm getting better at it! That's what i love about hapkido, it's such an endless journey of learning!