Pros and Cons of drills

[stump]

Hi all,

How do you feel about drilling exercises as they're used in the FMA?

What are your favourite armed and unarmed drills (if you'd like to share them)?

Also any links to good sites that show these?

[Acekicken]

Sinawalis 1- 12
6 & 10 Count Drill
Sibat drills
solo Baston
_______________-
Check out World Modern Arnis.Com
Datu Hartman 7 Goru Mike
Do Sinswalis with a light Saber effect.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by stump
Hi all,

How do you feel about drilling exercises as they're used in the FMA?

What are your favourite armed and unarmed drills (if you'd like to share them)?

Also any links to good sites that show these?

Personally, I like hubad lubad and siniwalli drills a lot. They are closely related and, at least as I've been taught, are the foundational embodiment of most (if not all) of the principles utilized throughout the FMA.

I think drills are excellent ... if used properly. Like anything else, it's possible (even easy for some people) to get lost in them. At that point, they cease to be useful.

Take hubad drills, for instance. I've run into people who say, "Oh yeah, I know hubad." Then I begin to work it with them and all they have are the basic motions for the most basic version of hubad ... and they don't have any understanding of the drill at all. They're playing patty cake ... period. Usually, these people are the ones who poo-poo the drill (and, usually, this extends to other drills). And, for them, I'd agree ... the drill is useless. But it's not the drill ... it's the person.

Drills, done properly, are great training tools because they allow a lot of repetitions in a short time. Of course, this is a dual-edged sword. "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." (not sure who said it) The flip side of that, though, is that "Imperfect practice makes imperfection." So ... in the case of the drills ... if they're poorly done, the high level of repetition will *quickly* ingrain bad habits in them. If they're properly done, then good habits will get quickly ingrained.

Mike

[Tom O'Brien]

Single & double sinawalli, tapi-tapi, the flow, disarming and hitting the heavy bag with the sticks

[ap Oweyn]

The original post is from about five years ago, and I don't think the OP is frequenting this forum anymore. But it's still a good question. I'm surprised it didn't get more feedback at the time.

Anyway, I've got a couple of thoughts on this one. First, I can certainly identify particular drills that I enjoy or find valuable in FMA. But second, I do sometimes wonder whether we don't come at drills from the wrong direction in some sense. I'll come back to that in a minute.

Favourite drills: I like contra y contra drills, the best known being sumbrada (aka the box pattern). I like the give and take. I also like abecedario drills, provided that they're done in a progression and not simply as one guy presenting a very sanitized attack and the other guy unloading a litany of unopposed counterattacks. Ways to use abecedario progressively could be a thread in and of itself, I think. (Maybe I'll do that, actually.)

Tom O'Brien mentioned tapi tapi. I haven't learned that one, though I've seen it done. For people unfamiliar with Modern Arnis (as I was until relatively recently), I should point out that tapi tapi is a specific drill in Modern Arnis. I've only seen it performed solo baston (single stick). But there could well be variations I don't know about. In my first system (Doce Pares), tapi tapi referred to a blocking system rather than a specific drill.

I like sinawali alright, though I think many places are too reliant on them for building doble olisi (double stick) skills. I'd put more faith in contra y contra or abecedario drills for developing actual application (and, of course, sparring). But as coordination drills, I like sinawali. I've learned eight patterns of sinawali over the years, give or take. I don't really have a preference, though I think the six-count variations are more natural than the four-count ones.

There was a time when I really enjoyed hubud lubud and other similar drills. We had one called palakaw for guiding an opponent's weapon hand while keeping yours clear to hit. Then we had various sequences that, I think, came out of the Inosanto Kali camp.

But all that brings me to my second thought. I wonder sometimes whether I haven't overemphasized drills in my own training. Actually, amend that. I'm pretty certain I have. And I think other people do too. I think people tend to equate skill with an ability to proficiently perform drills. "That guy's really good at arnis! Have you seen him do six-count arko?!" I think, in doing that, people sometimes loose sight of the end game. Application. The general thinking, I believe, is that the drills were originally formulated with application in mind. So if one gets good at the drills, then progresses beyond the confines of the drills, then the practitioner will be able to apply the techniques in the drill reliably.

And that may well be true.

Personally, though, I try to come from the other direction now. Think about a particular concept, circumstance, or whatever that I've observed or experienced. And try to devise a drill that will specifically address that phenomenon. For example, when people are really pressured by an aggressive fighter, they might backpedal straight backward. So we just practiced that situation. One person pushing the attack on another, who then had to pick his moment to footwork off of that straight line, block or evade the attack, and turn the flow so that he was on offense again.

Another example: After a gauntlet drill (i.e., a drill in which one person stands in the middle of a circle surrounded by others with their choice of weapon, attacking him when a certain queue is given by the teacher), I was... reminded of the importance of zoning. I was being "attacked" by a little guy. I'm 6'1", about 220 lbs. He was short, small, and young. I manhandled him. Sidestepped his practice knife, disarmed him, took him down, and got ready for my finishing move. Then I noticed that his other hand was laid across my neck. Or, more accurately, his other practice knife was laid across my neck. He had me dead bang.

After that, I started thinking again about how important it is to take outside position and zone away from whatever could be in the secondary hand. Even if it's empty, I don't need to be eating more crosses from an opponent than are necessary. So I started talking to the guys in our club about gaining outside position. What drills or techniques we had in our collective repetoire to gain outside position. Then we started drilling various methods. Weaving under an angle 1 shot. Palis palis then stepping in. Etc. So that the drill matches the circumstance.

It probably seems like a very academic distinction to some people. And they may well be right. But to me, it helps a great deal to think about the drills in that fashion (and in that order). Start with the problem and work backward from there, versus starting with a prescribed solution (which, I believe, sometimes leads to us revising the problem until it fits our solution; in other words, we might feed these drills in a way that helps the drills to work, rather than feeding these drills with attacks we think might actually happen).

Okay, that's enough out of me. Over to you guys.


Stuart

[shootodog]

this thread was from B.SD. era (before shootodog).

to answer the original post.

all drills in FMA aim to develop speed/ timing/ strength/ resistance.

as for the drills i love?

i love them all! i hate them all!

you know what i'm talking about.

[Freeform]

this thread was from B.SD. era (before shootodog).


The FMA forum existed B.SD :confused: :eek: :D


all drills in FMA aim to develop speed/ timing/ strength/ resistance.


What about line familiarisation and at the end of it all, flow.

[PlumDragon]

Stuart,

Good post, Im enjoying the FMA section of this forum more and more...

Ways to use abecedario progressively could be a thread in and of itself, I think. (Maybe I'll do that, actually.)I would enjoy reading said thread. Abecedario is a great drill, worthy of serious attention.



I like sinawali alright, though I think many places are too reliant on them for building doble olisi (double stick) skills. I'd put more faith in contra y contra or abecedario drills for developing actual application (and, of course, sparring). But as coordination drills, I like sinawali. I've learned eight patterns of sinawali over the years, give or take.Siniwali doesnt have to be just for double stick. You can use double and single knife, and even open hand. open hand siniwali has some interesting applications.

And actually, thats what is so cool about siniwali drills. From the basic 6-count siniwali drills, one can sprout an entire "mini-system" all on its own. Between the different patterns, the different possibilities of chambering, etc, it becomes an entire little system on its own, one that a student can easily continue to build on and grow simply out of intuition once they hit a certain point in their training where the lightbulb goes on.

Then it becomes not only a coordination and "maintenanace" drill, but also a little world of applications that cover most of the possible positions that the human body can find itself.




But all that brings me to my second thought. I wonder sometimes whether I haven't overemphasized drills in my own training. Actually, amend that. I'm pretty certain I have. And I think other people do too. I think people tend to equate skill with an ability to proficiently perform drills.One thing that has struck me in my experience is that all the drills in FMA that are drills, start out as drills, but become application sequences as one progresses. It is up to the teacher and student, however, to maintain a forward motion in training and not become stagnant, but always adding something to the "coordination drill" to bring it closer to reality. Polysut, sumbrada, VIllibraillo 16, etc...its all the same. Siniwali above is a great example too; at first its just coordination, but in the end, its a whole little world of applications that, IMO, arent being practiced they way they should be until a student is able to start pulling them off outside of the drill. Beyond a certain point, drills become an exercise of "maintenanace".


When people are really pressured by an aggressive fighter, they might backpedal straight backward. So we just practiced that situation. One person pushing the attack on another, who then had to pick his moment to footwork off of that straight line, block or evade the attack, and turn the flow so that he was on offense again.Are you familiar with running attacks? Ive also heard them referred to as "The Saints".

[shootodog]

The FMA forum existed B.SD :confused: :eek: :D

i know, i know! time flies when you're having fun.


What about line familiarisation and at the end of it all, flow.

goes without saying. play with something long enough you get familiar with it. ;)

[Brian R. VanCis]

Drills are great for developing fundamental striking/parrying skills plus
timing, distance, footwork, angling, etc. They are incredibly useful in that manner. Yet I would say it is best not to get lost in them and just use them for what they are.

[dyak_stone]

Yet I would say it is best not to get lost in them and just use them for what they are.
I think people tend to equate skill with an ability to proficiently perform drills. "That guy's really good at arnis! Have you seen him do six-count arko?!" I think, in doing that, people sometimes loose sight of the end game. Application. Yup, couldn't agree more.

In addition, focusing too much on the drills can actually make the movements in the drill ineffective. For example in sombrada, I've seen it all too often that the practitioners try to perform sombrada fast right away, that they disregard the proper targets and their strikes go in the direction of the blocks instead of the body targets. Sometimes, disarms or trapping maneuvers are practiced in static drills too much that practitioners do not learn the whens and hows of making them work in real time.

This is why some people think that sinawali and disarms have nothing to do with real fighting. The applications get lost.

Also, I've noticed how a lot of flow drills are done with the least amount of footwork. At the least, integrating footwork in solo drills already go far in improving body mechanics and coordination.

[Freeform]

Something also to remember is 'Where does the drill fit in regards to the totality of what you're training?"

If you're training for a stick or sword fight, how did you get there? This is one of the pre-eminant problems with the way some people approach sumbrada, hubbud and the like.

Drills have a tendancy to isolate part of the bigger picture, if you concentrate to much on one part, you fail to see the whole.

I'm not saying drills are bad, far from that, but they must always be viewed in context.

[Pat OMalley]

Drill teach you different attribute that are required in any conforntation, they make you have better reactions to situations as they change, hence FMA have a variety of different drills to train a variety of different attributes.

Some tend to thing Sinawali is simply for co-ordination and fail to see how it can and is translated to other areas of the FMA, e.g. Single Stick, Dagger, Ampty Hand etc, etc.

If you just drill for the sake of drilling and you have no idea why you are really doing them, then you miss the big picture, but if you know why your doing any of your drills and how it is applied and translated to the other areas then they are vital components to your training.

It's like shooting a gun, any idiot can shoot a gun, but the person who drills and drills on the range becomes the marksman.

Best regards

Pat

[kalislash]

Combat drills is very important to any FMA practitioner . Using anyway as a way,using useless as useful... ;)

[Diego_Vega]

I was just wondering, where does one draw the line that separates "drilling" from "sparring." To me, anything short of an almost anything goes fight is still "drilling." I have a friend who does balintawak and he tells me that they do a minimum of drills because they mostly spar. Then I saw what they call sparring. Looked like 2 guys doing the same thing, lots of trapping, grabbing and letting go of sticks, controlled, and limited to specific techniques to elicit certain responses. In other words "drilling." If you do a largo or medio system and your sparring is limited to hitting hands, IMO, it is still drilling not really sparring. Granted, in a learning enviorment, there has to be understood rules and control. I think an example of sparring that is obviously different from drilling would be when two strangers from different systems play with a minimum of understood rules. Otherwise, the minimum of rules, element of surprize and competition (wanting to outdo, lack of co-operation, smothering your opponents skill level) is what seperates sparring from drilling. Drilling involves working with a partner to improve your skill level, sometimes both your skill levels. To me sparring is just short of fighting, and involves overcoming an opponent (not a partner) to test your skill level. ("Fighting" is a completely seperate issue and involves survival with or without skill.)

[ap Oweyn]

Diego,

That's precisely why I end up using the term "sparring drills" so often. :)

The line is fuzzy. And should be. If it weren't, I would sincerely wonder what the one could possibly do to benefit the other.


Stuart

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart,

Good post, Im enjoying the FMA section of this forum more and more...
Hey thanks! That's nice to hear!

I would enjoy reading said thread. Abecedario is a great drill, worthy of serious attention.
Well, I started one. But I haven't had the chance to add to it yet. Hopefully later today, I'll try and get it rolling.

Siniwali doesnt have to be just for double stick. You can use double and single knife, and even open hand. open hand siniwali has some interesting applications.
True. And I've certainly had teachers that talked about single stick sinawali, for example. And I've been taught empty hand patterns that closely resemble the sinawali patterns. But I tend not to call them sinawali. I'm not really sure what sinawali would mean in that case. Any drill in which two people are going back and forth in an exchange? That's contra y contrada or contrada in my mind. Maybe if the sequence was symmetrical, I'd consider it a sinawali. In any event, I guess that's mostly a terminology issue. (One of many.)

And actually, thats what is so cool about siniwali drills. From the basic 6-count siniwali drills, one can sprout an entire "mini-system" all on its own. Between the different patterns, the different possibilities of chambering, etc, it becomes an entire little system on its own, one that a student can easily continue to build on and grow simply out of intuition once they hit a certain point in their training where the lightbulb goes on.
Yep. The key being that they extend the drill. And as several people (you included) have pointed out, that requires an understanding of purpose, limitations, and scope.

Then it becomes not only a coordination and "maintenanace" drill, but also a little world of applications that cover most of the possible positions that the human body can find itself.
True. Though, as the argument goes with kata as well, I think that's only going to be at its most useful when you take those applications out and work them directly.

One thing that has struck me in my experience is that all the drills in FMA that are drills, start out as drills, but become application sequences as one progresses. It is up to the teacher and student, however, to maintain a forward motion in training and not become stagnant, but always adding something to the "coordination drill" to bring it closer to reality. Polysut, sumbrada, VIllibraillo 16, etc...its all the same. Siniwali above is a great example too; at first its just coordination, but in the end, its a whole little world of applications that, IMO, arent being practiced they way they should be until a student is able to start pulling them off outside of the drill. Beyond a certain point, drills become an exercise of "maintenanace".
And I'm fine with coming at drills from that direction too. Provided that the drill gets extended enough. That obviously depends on who's doing them though. I'm sure there are lots of guys who take a drill and run wild with it. And thank goodness for them.

Are you familiar with running attacks? Ive also heard them referred to as "The Saints".
Not specifically no. Is it a Dog Brothers term?


Stuart

[PlumDragon]

True. And I've certainly had teachers that talked about single stick sinawali, for example. And I've been taught empty hand patterns that closely resemble the sinawali patterns. But I tend not to call them sinawali. I'm not really sure what sinawali would mean in that case. Any drill in which two people are going back and forth in an exchange? That's contra y contrada or contrada in my mind.Were maybe talking about the same thing here, but consider the motions of heaven-6. With open hands, the first 2 strikes would kind of look like a parry/salute and the 3rd like a watik hammer fist and now youre on the other side. Practiced in application, there is no back and forth flow from one side to the other like a siniwali is performed; the goal goes from "maintenance" to real-life application in context of battle.

It doesnt act much like siniwali, but has all the gross movement of the siniwali discussed, but also addresses important fighting concepts. There are just so many possibilities with this I feel that you could build an entire little system on a basic siniwali and its variations. Its all in there, you dont even need many of the hubud drills because they are adequately taken care of in many of the siniwali drills.


True. Though, as the argument goes with kata as well, I think that's only going to be at its most useful when you take those applications out and work them directly.Later on, yes. But perhaps a student should drill these things so many times first, engrain them, before they start speeding them up and making them realistic outside of the drill. Its only a natural progression to expect this. And then when one is far enough that they can use these things in battle context, they can revisit the drill and may find that it has "changed" for them.



Not specifically no. Is it a Dog Brothers term?Re: The Saints or running attacks.
To be honest, Im not sure; my Kali teacher had trained with the Dog Brothers but I think its an Inosanto/Lacoste thing. I will find out for you tomorrow where the term originated. They are fairly complicated drills with forward and backward pushing footwork and stickwork.

[PlumDragon]

Not specifically no. Is it a Dog Brothers term?Re: The Saints or running attacks...I will find out for you tomorrow where the term originated.
OK the running attacks are a set of techniques strung together that are named after 4 "Saints" (I dont know their names) who apparently used them in some historical battle in the Filipines to help guard a building or something.

They originated in the Lacoste system and are taught in Inosanto blend Kali, which of course includes pieces of Lacoste.

Performed at full speed, they kind of simulate a quick walk or run while doing the drill. Hope this helps...

[ap Oweyn]

OK the running attacks are a set of techniques strung together that are named after 4 "Saints" (I dont know their names) who apparently used them in some historical battle in the Filipines to help guard a building or something.

They originated in the Lacoste system and are taught in Inosanto blend Kali, which of course includes pieces of Lacoste.

Performed at full speed, they kind of simulate a quick walk or run while doing the drill. Hope this helps...
It does indeed. Thanks! :)

I'd like to see these sometime. I should see if my old JKD teacher has any examples of them.

[dyak_stone]

I was just wondering, where does one draw the line that separates "drilling" from "sparring."... Then I saw what they call sparring. Looked like 2 guys doing the same thing, lots of trapping, grabbing and letting go of sticks, controlled, and limited to specific techniques to elicit certain responses. In other words "drilling."... Drilling involves working with a partner to improve your skill level, sometimes both your skill levels. To me sparring is just short of fighting, and involves overcoming an opponent (not a partner) to test your skill level. Yeah, I know what you mean. I've seen other groups claim that in their drills, attacks are done at random and have no set pattern (implying that any kind of attack is possible), when in actuality the attacks they feed are done in a prescribed manner (uniform strength, speed, range), with only randomized angles (within their own set of XX basic strikes). I guess they think of drills and sparring in a different way?

And I agree with your definitions of drilling and sparring. Though some drills and sparring formats do tend to overlap depending on what is done and how.
That's precisely why I end up using the term "sparring drills" so often. :)

The line is fuzzy. And should be. If it weren't, I would sincerely wonder what the one could possibly do to benefit the other.
I agree. When we do drills in fact, we intentionally blur the line between the two. When it comes to the point where the students can demonstrate the technique cleanly and at full speed on static opponents, we do a sort of "sparring drill", as you say, where for example the opponents feed the initial attack, and when the students start to apply the prescribed counter the opponents will attempt to resist and counter themselves, with increasing intensity as the repetitions continue. We still call this sort of training "drilling" though.

[windtalker]

it was vince lombardi who said 'practice does not make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect'.

not saying this is how drills and sparring needs to be done. just how our school does things. drills and sparring are very different there. with drills there is less resistance and more opprotunity to explore concepts. also sessions for drills teach basics.

while still talking about drills the correct footwork and learning both proper timing and distance can be accomplished. with sparring comes the practice against realism part. what might look effective during those drills might not fare so well in the latter.

personally i like our drills better than sparring base sessions. the former method develops proper technique while the latter becomes a technical nightmare. maybe theres a problem with how we do the drilling/sparring base sessions?

[shootodog]

it was vince lombardi who said 'practice does not make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect'.

not saying this is how drills and sparring needs to be done. just how our school does things. drills and sparring are very different there. with drills there is less resistance and more opprotunity to explore concepts. also sessions for drills teach basics.

while still talking about drills the correct footwork and learning both proper timing and distance can be accomplished. with sparring comes the practice against realism part. what might look effective during those drills might not fare so well in the latter.

personally i like our drills better than sparring base sessions. the former method develops proper technique while the latter becomes a technical nightmare. maybe theres a problem with how we do the drilling/sparring base sessions?

yes. you're not studying fma.

[windtalker]

yes. you're not studying fma.

have you read any of the other posts by me in the fma based thread? what about in the jkd forum? for that matter everyone has a profile here on this site. did i claim to be a student of fma in any of those posts or in the profile section?

from the very beginning i made it very clear about not being a student that represents any fma style. not to mention also said that my knowledge and experience is limited to what has been covered in my jkd classes. for that matter i have a wide range of intrests not entirely based on fma.

does that mean that people that do not represent fma have no place for posting on this forum? do only fma students drill/spar with sticks? maybe there is some criticism on your part about how we train. and you very well may be right.

perhaps if you explained how the drilling and sparring with sticks is done in your class i could better understand the similarities and differences between them. maybe i could even learn something valuable about training with sticks that could prove benifitial in the future.

far too often i have seen large differences in the technical finess between drills and sparring. how does your school manage to keep the correct footwork and technique in place during sparring? again i never claimed to be a fma stylist. just someone that attempts to learn aspects of stickfighting.

[shootodog]

far too often i have seen large differences in the technical finess between drills and sparring. how does your school manage to keep the correct footwork and technique in place during sparring? again i never claimed to be a fma stylist. just someone that attempts to learn aspects of stickfighting.

through practice. :)

[dyak_stone]

maybe theres a problem with how we do the drilling/sparring base sessions?far too often i have seen large differences in the technical finess between drills and sparring. how does your school manage to keep the correct footwork and technique in place during sparring?If there is a large disparity between the way drills and sparring is done, then of course there will be a similar difference between what and how techniques will be manifested in a sparring versus drilling environment.

Like what I and ap Oweyn have said, at some point down the line you should "blur the lines" between your drills and your sparring. The level of intensity and resistance from the drilling partner should gradually increase toward the level of sparring.

I guess we need to look at what we mean by "perfect practice". Is perfect practice being able to perform a certain string of movements in the smoothest and fastest manner possible, or being able to perform those movements in the proper time and in the proper manner (not necessarily has to be really fast or really smooth) against an opponent?

[Freeform]

We have an interesting saying:

'Make the pattern, break the pattern.'

This is very important when using drills to teach 'fighting application'.

One thing to remember about drills though, is that they create conditioned responses. You should look at your drills really carefully to ensure that you are truely installing the responses that you want.

[ptkali778]

through practice. :)

a man of few words :D