Hwa Rang Do swordsmanship.

[Bronze Statue]

Just a question for those who do Hwa Rang Do; where does the swordsmanship method come from?

[Mei Hua]

Just a question for those who do Hwa Rang Do; where does the swordsmanship method come from?

Uh, this is Hapkido!

[Bronze Statue]

Uh, this is Hapkido!

Yes, and Hwa Rang Do is a modern hapkido/kuksool hybrid, if I remember correctly?

[Jointlock]

You might be thinking of HanMuDo. The founder He-Young Kimm studied several martial arts including Hapkido, Kuk-Sool and Taekwondo.

As for Hwa Rang Do, the founder Joo-Bong Lee does not give credit to Choi or Yoo-Sul or Hapkido for their techniques. I think he or In-Hyuk Suh says that their Grandfather taught them the martial arts. However I think both are high rank in Hapkido.

[JimH]

Hwarangdo:
The Lee Brothers claimed to have been in a monastary that taught the secrets of the ancient Korean Warriors,they later ran away as children.
While they give no credit to Choi,whom which they were students under,along side In Hyuk Suh,it is funny that for 20 years they only taught Hapkido,although they first used Kuk Sool Won,then somehow Kuk Sool Won became In Hyuk Suh's and the Lee Brothers went to the US taught HAPKIDO and then founded Hwarangdo.
9in hyuk suh claims instruction in the ancient arts ,as a child,by an uncle)

Exposure to the Greatness and ever expanding skills of the ancients in armed and unarmed Korean arts,yet they sought out choi and studied Hapkido??

There are early pictures of the Kuk Sool Won club when under the Lee Brothers and all of those involved are students of HAPKIDO.
(I believe these pictures can be found on the hwarangdo websites.If one is familiar with the symbol used in kuk sool won you will see it on the walls in the background)

On the Hwarangdo website:
http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

one can read where The Lee Brothers opened school under the Name HAPKIDO to teach there Hwarang art.

If one reads about the early days of Hwarangdo in the US one will see the people say they learned ONLY HAPKIDO,the Lee's only taught Hapkido,not until the mid to later 70's did they include the so called ancient arts.
I wonder why????

Hwarangdo and Kuk Sool Won are the Koreanization of arts,of Japanese instruction found in Korea at the time after Occupation.

During the occupation by Japan,Koreans had NO swords.
After occupation,when Martial training was allowed ,the Koreans were exposed to Japanese styled Sword work.
The Koreans claimed ancient skills from ancient Warriors,took Japanese sword and made it Korean,changing direct draws and cuts and adding acrobatic sword.

I know many Koreans who teach Sword and they teach Japanese styled Swordsmanship,even many Hwarangdo schools teach Japanese Sword over the Jumping ,spinning and twirling techniques found in so called ancient Korean Sword techniques.

I was at the opening of a Hwaranngdo school and when they did the sword work for the audience,I turned to a man standing next to me and said"that is Japanese sword work",he said"wow you know the difference",he continued "The Instructor is my son and I taught him Japanese Sword technique",The Father is a shotokan master and Japanese/Okinawan weapons master.

[JimH]

Dr kimm:
From Dr Kimms Bio on the Han Mu do site,
http://www.hanmudo.com/bio01.html
one reads that while he had much training in Korean arts he was not ranked in them.
His longest study and participation was in yudo and Bi Sool (self defense),he was ranked in Yudo

He was exposed to diverse training in college and the man he credits with teaching him Hapkido,Won Kwang-wha in 1962,(1962 is when he began training in Hapkido,according to his bio) well Won Kwang-wha died in mid 1962,and Dr Lee had only trained with him once a month,so he had a total of about 6 days,of training,since he took a class that 6 days is greatly reduced.

Dr Kimms rank is from In Hyuk Suh,with whom Dr Kimm developed a friendship and was given rank to help expand the Kuk Sool Won Organization.

Dr Kimm credits Ji Han Jae also as a teacher,but not because Ji Han Jae taught him hapkido,but because Ji Han Jae,a Friend,expressed to him,Dr Kimm, that he should start his own art and federation.

Much of what we are told in regards to many of these Great Masters is not as filled with truth and dedication to training as we would like to envision and believe.
Many had limited time in actual training and expanded themselves through self growth and or given rank by friends.

Know the truth,Read the info and history they out out.

[JimH]

Read the Bios and their own words about the training of many of these Masters and see the truth,some who are pioneers only spent 8 months in training and opened schools.
(8 months of training was not all day every day,they took one and two hour classes several times a week at most)

Again I will translate a story of a Legend,not Korean stylist,but rank was given in Korea as freely.
Joe Lewis told me he had obtained a 4th degree in three styles,while in the Marine Corps stationed in Okinawa, he trained only a couple of hours a week in each style and he got that ranking in less than 18 months.
chuck norris,while serving in the air Force,trained a couple of hours a week and obtained his Black Belt in 8 months.

We have American masters,who say they trained with the Korean Military,while in the US military and that they were given rank,returned and opened Hapkido schools.
Then we look and see that they had first degrees,never opened Hapkido schools at all ,but hired Tae Kwon do Ranked people to teach at schools for them.
They met Koreans who had been given rank,were told to jump on board and teach the new style of Kuk Sool Won or what ever and they were then given rank and then opened schools, then jumped to other organizations with Koreans GIVEN so called High ranks and they got promoted through them.

Then they have the guts to attack and denounce others,lol.

Know the truth of those we hold so high.

Find an instructor or school,if you like what they do ,do it ,enjoy it,learn and grow.
Forget the History,the hear say and the rep,as many times it is hype and self created crap.

[iron_ox]

Hwarangdo:
The Lee Brothers claimed to have been in a monastary that taught the secrets of the ancient Korean Warriors,they later ran away as children.
While they give no credit to Choi,whom which they were students under,along side In Hyuk Suh,it is funny that for 20 years they only taught Hapkido,although they first used Kuk Sool Won,then somehow Kuk Sool Won became In Hyuk Suh's and the Lee Brothers went to the US taught HAPKIDO and then founded Hwarangdo.



Hello Jim,

Actually, according to several sources, including Duggan's website, the Lee Brothers were students of Kim, Moo Woong, not Dojunim Choi. This distinction is important to me only because it is evident that the kicking they do is not from Dojunim Choi's original curriculum - also some of the hand formations and techniques are clearly from another source.

In terms of the sword work - it is slightly Japanese looking - but recently looks much more like stuff from the Muye Dobo book - where I think (THINK) most of that stuff is coming from.

Certainly, the sword material they are doing now in Hwarangdo is different than I saw in 1982 when it was pretty cut and dry Japanese style.

[JimH]

From the Hwarangdo website on Dr Jo Bong Lee and his Brother:

http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

"Later, during the 1950's, the Korean War broke out and the Lee family moved further south to DaeGu, Korea. It was then that the Lee brothers met the DaeDongRyu YuSool founder Yong-Sul Choi. The Lee brothers took private lessons from Master Choi and received master position of this art in 1956. After this they moved back to Seoul. "

It is also documented in other places that the Lee Brothers and In Hyuk Suh and His brother In Sun Seo had trained together under Choi.

I also have a video of In Sun Seo's recounting of Hapkido history in Korea,who and when schools opened and where.
This has been posted on here before by me.

[Jointlock]

Doesn't Hwarangdo have over 100 weapons or something like that? Where did Lee pick up this training?

[iron_ox]

From the Hwarangdo website on Dr Jo Bong Lee and his Brother:

http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

"Later, during the 1950's, the Korean War broke out and the Lee family moved further south to DaeGu, Korea. It was then that the Lee brothers met the DaeDongRyu YuSool founder Yong-Sul Choi. The Lee brothers took private lessons from Master Choi and received master position of this art in 1956. After this they moved back to Seoul. "

It is also documented in other places that the Lee Brothers and In Hyuk Suh and His brother In Sun Seo had trained together under Choi.

I also have a video of In Sun Seo's recounting of Hapkido history in Korea,who and when schools opened and where.
This has been posted on here before by me.

Hello all,

Jim, not to argue for argumanets sake, but the Lee brothers timeline on their site is highly suspect. Try hwarangdo.org for a balanced look.

It is far more likely that the Lee Brothers studied with Kim, Moo Woong - and certainly they were not declared as masters in 1956 - 7 years after the art was first taught, and when the Lee Brothers were what - 19 and 21 - Ji Han Jae was only a third dan ion 1956 - starting in 1949.

In addition, according to men I have spoken to that were there starting before Ji in 1949, think at best the Lee Brotherws might have been seminar students, but not regular dojang attendees.

Sorry, but Lee Joo Bang's account of his art has changed so much over the years, and miraculously including the training with Dojunim Choi after he had died and could not rerfute it personally, that his story lacks credibility.

[MJR]

Hello Jim,

Actually, according to several sources, including Duggan's website, the Lee Brothers were students of Kim, Moo Woong, not Dojunim Choi. This distinction is important to me only because it is evident that the kicking they do is not from Dojunim Choi's original curriculum - also some of the hand formations and techniques are clearly from another source.
.

In Kimm He-Young's history of section of his book "Hapkido" (AKA the "The hapkido Bible") he also speaks of Master Lee's training under Kim Moo Hong (AKA Kim Moo-Woong, Kim Moo Hyun). This makes sense as Master Lee was born and raised in Seoul and never lived in Taegu. Also Kim Moo-Hong's students founded the Kuk Sool Kwan school of hapkido from which many of the senior Kuk Sool Won people emerged. (I know that Suh In Hyuk says he learned from Choi a well but he also known to have trained at Kim's school.) This common connection would explain why the founding of Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo were connected.

There is an interesting discussion of the Kuk Sool Kwan here. Though it does not touch upon modern Hwarangdo.

http://hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=86&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40&sid=6fe287a74ee26f2766a94943391c3c45

Here is a clip from the 1960s which features Lee's sword work. There already seems a effort to recreate a more circular approach inspired by looking at old Korean texts however in practical use he seems to revert to a more Japanese like usage. It seems that their sword is based upon a combination of these elements.

http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm

[JimH]

There is a post on this site
http://hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.p...6a94943391c3c45
In which a member says that he heard that Ik Jo Kang brought forms to Kuk Sool?
I am a former student of GM Ik Jo kang and while he acknowledges kuk sool with an end of class salutation he does not stress kuk sool.
He acknowledges having studied Kung fu but what he teaches is TKD,Hapkido and Kumdo,with TKD and Hapkido mixed and Kumdo as a seperate art.
The Forms used are TKD as found in Chi/ki do kwan.
No forms in Hapkido,except for short stick forms.
His sword work is a mix of Japanese style and some of the Koreanized sword work.
The dojangs have pictures of Dojunim Choi

.................................................. ..................

The clip of the sword:
This clip may show an effort to incorporate old Korean circular sword,this I do not know as I have never seen the Old Korean texts
but
the Sword form demonstrated on the clip definately shows Chinese styled Forms which one may see similarly at kung Fu sword Demos.

[CJ]

Just wondering what school was this jimh

[JimH]

The IK Jo Kang schools:
First school that I know of was off central avenue,Yonkers ,New York,across from the Mt Olympus Diner.(1970's)

The main school was relocated to Harney Road Scarsdale (1980's-1990s)

Another School was opened on South Broadway by one of Ij Ko Kangs Top students,who was killed in his dojang.

Another school was on Mclean Avenue Yonkers.(1980's)

Gm Kang now has schools in Ct,Shrub Oak NY and has relocated his main school to Central Avenue Scarsdale NY.

The School I trained at was the Mclean Avenue 1980's but I had opportunity to train in the South Broadway school and at the Harney Road Schools

I hope this answers the question?
.................................................. ...
Also according to an Instructor I was training in wing chun with in White Plains New York in the 1980's,he and Ik Jo Kang were training in an exchange,he was learning TKD/Hapkido and Ik Jo Kang was training in wing chun,so Gm Kang was/is always learning and exchanging.
.................................................. ..........
I had a friend who is a Master in Shaolin look at the sword Video and he said that though it has a Korean flair,the form is Southern Style Shaolin from the Chinese Brigade of the 1940's

[SaBumNim]

Hello all! I train in Kuk sool Won, and formerly a style of Hapkido. The histories of these martial arts do seem to be shrouded, its interesting to see all side of the stories. There are more similarities between the arts then there are differences, I think we all should recognize this.

SBN

[dionmj]

I agree with you a 100%. I believe many or all of the current masters and legends had or has rank that was either given to them at one time or another, or that they are not being completely truthful about their martial arts history. One of the two would sum up the majority.

[MadMonk108]

In terms of the sword work - it is slightly Japanese looking - but recently looks much more like stuff from the Muye Dobo book - where I think (THINK) most of that stuff is coming from.

Hwa Rang Do swordwork is not from the Muye Dobo Tongji.

[MadMonk108]

During the occupation by Japan,Koreans had NO swords.
After occupation,when Martial training was allowed ,the Koreans were exposed to Japanese styled Sword work.

This is historically unsupported.

The Koreans were exposed to Japanese style sword work long before the Occupation ended. Kendo was taught before and during the Occupation. As for a "sword ban" during the Occupation itself, I'd be careful saying that unless I had actual historical proof.