Where does Ju Jitsu end and Aikido start?

[Matt_Bernius]

I've been fascinated by Aikido, Aiki Ju Jitsu, & Aiki Judo for a number of years. While I've practiced none of them yet, they're pretty high on my martial to do lists. In researching them I've run across the following quote from Ueshiba Sensei a number of times:

Originally posted by O_Sensei ;)
"In a real battle, atemi (punching/kicking) is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent"

I mentioned this in a "Street Aikido" thead and someone responded with the following:

Originally posted by Sonshu
If you take Aikido [ed.] to the Atemi side in order to be able to use if effectivly it goes back to its original form and for me it just becomes jujitsu.

Thoughts? Where does a hard Aikido styles like Yoshinkan fit in? Is it skirting the edge? Is it only philosophy that creates the ultimate separation?

Looking for feedback from those far more knowledgable than myself. Thanks,

- Matt

[pesilat]

I've never formally trained in either so take this FWIW.

Based on my limited exposure to these arts, I'd say that the primary difference is mindset. Jiujitsu has a more aggressive mindset than Aikido.

As I understand it, though, atemi is part of Aikido. Ueshiba reached a point where he didn't often need it (or need it at all?) but it was only after going through a long process of development. Personally, I think if people try to skip that process, they'll end up with a very shallow understanding.

Some Aikidoka that I've talked to look on atemi as "cheating." They think the techniques (whether locking, throwing, etc.) should be "pure." I think, usually, this means that the people haven't worked their atemi enough to be proficient with it so they "poo poo" it - even to the point of implying that Ueshiba didn't know what he was talking about :)

As I understand it, Aikido came about after WWII. MacArthur banned the study/teaching of martial arts in Japan. Ueshiba stripped out the nasty stuff from his Aikijujitsu and put very "defense" oriented spin on it and said, "Look, this isn't martial arts. It's a pursuit of harmony and enlightenment through physical motion." Personally, I think a lot of people have gotten lost in the smoke screen and lost touch with the fire that makes the smoke.

But, again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time :)

Mike

[Virtuous]

Jujitsu and aikijutsu/do fairly different. I would say judo represent jujitsu better than aiki. Aikido from my experience teaches the same tachniques as aikijutsu but it really is more of a spiritual cultivating ordeal. (I studied aikido in aiki ki for a little while, it may different in other ryus/dojos) Aikijutsu is much more aggressive and focuses on causing maximum damage with little strength. More Combat oriented... I study Dai Yoshin Ryu Aikijutsu now, suites my personality better. Hope that helps some.


Aikijudo is a new one on me, never heard of it.

[God]

i think atemi is underappreciated. take the greatest aikido master ever, put him up against mike tyson, and say, "hey mike, put your middle finger out before you punch, and hit him right here on the neck" and see who wins the fight.

since i looooooooooooove cross-training, i made up a pseudo flow chart for how fighting "works" and how different MA operate together...but of course, i've never seen ANY mma tourneys including the UFC so i'm totally speculating here...

the fight starts with striking, this is almost like the surface of the ocean. it's comparable to swimming you know...you can float atop the water, but it takes a conscious effort to hold your breath and go underneath the surface...generally you don't bob up and down going under and above the surface. a fight is like that.

you can go for just a quick duck under the surface with an aikido or shaolin technique, or you can hold your breath and dive a little deeper, with a take down or a lock/choke, and from there, usually depending on the defenders reactions to the additional technique, you could hit the bottom: groundfighting. ju-jitsu. from there you're pretty much going to stay there, until you break your opponents arm and he gets up and tries to stab you with a broken beer bottle, where you'd be back to atemi.

the point is, the most basic, sound and efficient thing you can do when you are cool, collected and balanced opponents, is to strike and block. if you're attacked, sucker punched, drugged, or shot...that's a different story. but if someone pushes you and says, "come on old man, wanna go?" i would most definately recomend getting into a fighting stance and socking the ******* in the face over taking his push and throwing him against the wall.

[Freeform]

I've got a diagram kicking about somewhere made by Tomiki Sensei which breaks down the various waza into their respective arts, Ju Jitsu, Judo and Aikido. I'll see if I can get it scanned in for you guys.

Colin

[dmiller575]

I practice Shodokan Aikido which was developed by Tomiki Sensei and this has a kata which is considered to contain 'Old Style' applications. I think that these may be the nearest to JuJitsu that you can find within Aikido. They tend to be more aggresive but I cannot comment on how close they are to JuJitsu as I have never practiced that art.

Regrading Atemi techniques, within Aikido, they have been changed from their original form. The used to be full on strikes but have now become pushes. So an Atemi such as Shomenate has become a very fast placement of the heel of the hand on the chin followed by a downward push which throws Uke to the mat. However this is done very quickly and with a large amount of movement and power so that to the casual observer it looks as if a full blown strilke has taken place.

The older/original version is a strike where the heel of the hand is hit upwards to the chin and risks breaking Uke's neck. I imagine that is how the JuJitsu version is performed with a bit of control to prevent injuries.

Freeform does both TaiJutsu and Aikido so he would be well qualified to comment on the differences/similarities.

[Matt_Bernius]

So perhaps I need to refine the question (And perhaps it is ultimately undefinable). If you're practicing Aikido with more of a (and sorry for the loaded term) "realistic" Atemi, does the entire thing revert towards Ju Jitsu. Or is it the response that really defines the difference?

[aikiMac]

I studied a bit of JJ and I'm in aikido now. They are my top two favorite martial arts. I am far, far from being an expert in either martial art, so my opinions are by no means definitive. But here's my 2 cents worth (or 1 1/2 cents):

The difference between aikido and JJ is intent fulfilled tangibly through the physical technique. Intent without action is meaningless. Aikido and JJ have different intents, and they both give meaning to their intents through the action of their respective techniques.

The intent behind the art of JJ is to injure, maim, kill. Certainly one can do some jujitsu techniques without injuring the uke, but these exceptions do not erase the overall intent of the art. Jujitsu was and is a combat martial art.

The intent behind aikido is to diffuse an attack without injury. Certainly one can cause serious injury with aikido techniques, but that doesn't negate the overall intent behind the art. Aikido is not a combat martial art.

Translating this to match the wording of the question, JJ ends when the actor (nage) has an aikido-ish intent and -- and -- matches his action to that intent. Vice versa for an aikido actor.

An example is sheo-nage. There are dozens of ways to do sheo-nage, but they all fall into two broad camps: You break uke's arm, or you don't break uke's arm. Jujitsu and aikido people both learn both ways of doing sheo-nage, but the jujitsu people prefer to break the arm, and the aikido people prefer to not break the arm. These preferences are physical, tangible expressions of their underlying, and opposite, intents.

Jujitsu would end if a jujitsu person does sheo-nage the aikido way because he intended to not hurt his uke. Likewise aikido would end if an aikido person breakes his uke's arm on purpose.

[Matt_Bernius]

aikiMac

Great summation, thanks.

- Matt