Are Hapkido throws similar to Judo throws?

[homer_simps1]

As the title says are they the same or are they more like Aikido throws?



I was just wondering because I have my first Hapkido lesson at this guys house. I had asked him if Hapkido contains throws and he said yes, but I had viewed a video on YouTube that showed the throws and Hapkido really looks a lot like Aikido, which kind of turned me off to it. Anyhoo, I'm willing to give Hapkido a try...who knows maybe I'll like it.

THanks for your replies

[Willow]

The true "throws" of Hapkido are hip throws similar to what you are probably thinking of in Judo. Some of the other techniques you might have seen on that video clip are flip falls performed by the "victim" that will be similar to Aikido.

In short, it has some of both, but with a bit more emphasis on the Aikido style techniques.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Aikido is Hapkidos sister art, but we also do some Judo type throws. I think they might depend on where you train, but you will prob get some of each

[klaasb]

Hapkido, just a most martial arts, has many different styles.
When you watch IHF hapkido, you might get the impression that it looks like aikido. But there are also styles (most of them) that don't look like aikido at all.

You can compare them a bit with these two videos.

IHF hapkido:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928136524129573336&q=hapkido

KHF hapkido:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5628280269246367129&q=hapkido

[Jointlock]

In our school we have throws that are Judo like and some that just use the arm. We also have some throws that I have not seen in Judo or Aikido that put pressure on the elbow joint. We require 12 different throws at yellow belt. 10 of them are shown in the video below.

Yellow Belt Throws (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tut5zfHh78A)

By the way estranged13 is who is getting thrown in this video.

[Thomas]

The IHF group that I studied with used Yudo (Judo) throws as part of our main throwing/sweeping component. Working out with some Judo guys recently, they complimented me on my "Judo" throws and sweeps... that I had learned in Hapkido.

It probably depends on the school and/or kwan but I think you can find some schools that use Judo or Judo-like throws

[pauli]

Are Hapkido throws similar to Judo throws?hapkido throws are angrier.

[MA_Angel]

hapkido throws are angrier.

I somewhat agree, mostly because of the loud sound I hear when I or any of my classmates come crashing down to the mat :D

[hollywood1340]

Ever seen competition judo? I'd have to disagree on that. But I'll say the throws are more fun ;)

[Blade3]

As the title says are they the same or are they more like Aikido throws?



I was just wondering because I have my first Hapkido lesson at this guys house. I had asked him if Hapkido contains throws and he said yes, but I had viewed a video on YouTube that showed the throws and Hapkido really looks a lot like Aikido, which kind of turned me off to it. Anyhoo, I'm willing to give Hapkido a try...who knows maybe I'll like it.

THanks for your replies

I see that you're in Pomona, Is the guy training you from Kim's Hapkido (Jang Mu) or Kim's Hapkido? (Jin Mu) Either one of those systems are great and it's a big difference between those systems & Akido, Judo, & Tae Kwon Do even though you'll see some similarities in the 3 of them in HKD.

There was a Kim's on Foothill Blvd I attended a few years ago but I know that they're not there anymore but have schools in Monrovia, San Dimas, Alhambra, & Pasadena. I recomend going to the Monrovia school on a Wedsday night to check out a class & see if they'll let you spar.....Then make your opinion on what ya' think it's really like . Okay? :)

www.kimshapkido.com

[JimH]

Take a look at this clip
The 67 judo throws of the Kodokan.
You will much of what we do.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1464560751681788897

Judo,Aikido,Hapkido are all off shoots of Jujitsu,with Hapkido and aikido as direct off shoots of Daito Ryu.

When Kano,the founder of Judovisited Ueshiba's Aikido school he said what he saw,at that time,was JUDO.

Aikido,(if done with kicks and strikes),as in certain older aikido styles is just like Hapkido with its violence of action and small circles as compared to later younger Aikido which is much more compliant and begins with very large circles.(aikido as it advances makes the circles smaller,we do the smaller circles off the start)

[rangerwalker]

As always, it depends on the school you train at and your instructor, but generally, while hapkido uses some of the throws of judo, most of hkd's throws are more similar to aikido. The majority of my training was in hapkido, but I have student rank in judo also, and have looked at judo throwing books and videos alot. Based on my training, hapkido people tend to throw with their legs wider apart than a judo person would, especially on the basic hip throws or shoulder throws. In judo, we would keep the legs closer together on these throws and emphasize the driving power of the legs. Because judo is the art of throwing, I teach the basic judo throws and sweeps in my hapkido class instead of the hapkido throws I learned. I just think they are more effective. Mike Swain's judo curriculum videos are a great resource if you want to learn the judo throws.

Also, judo simply has a larger number of throws and sweeps while most hapkido schools only teach a limited number of these.

[Hapkido7]

In our school we have throws that are Judo like and some that just use the arm. We also have some throws that I have not seen in Judo or Aikido that put pressure on the elbow joint. We require 12 different throws at yellow belt. 10 of them are shown in the video below.

Yellow Belt Throws (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tut5zfHh78A)

By the way estranged13 is who is getting thrown in this video.

Jointlock..
I statrted hapkido back in Nov. 2006 I am a yellow belt and and so far for this belt i have only been taught 2 throws, which are almost the same as 9 and 10 in white belt. My question is--Is every school that much different in the teaching of Hapkido?? I really like this Art.I take it at the ATC school in Corona Ca.-- Tell me what u think please-- Shaun

[Hapkido7]

Happy Late B-Day--

Mine is also Jan. 2----but ahhhh just a long time ago lol

[Jointlock]

Jointlock..
I statrted hapkido back in Nov. 2006 I am a yellow belt and and so far for this belt i have only been taught 2 throws, which are almost the same as 9 and 10 in white belt. My question is--Is every school that much different in the teaching of Hapkido?? I really like this Art.I take it at the ATC school in Corona Ca.-- Tell me what u think please-- Shaun

I'd say that most Hapkido schools teach the same thing, it's the order things are taught in that can be different. We have our curriculum this way because my instructor and I think it is the best way for us to teach and learn. You'll most likely learn all of the techniques that we teach at white and yellow, they just might be taught at different sections of the curriculum.

Some schools teach sets of techniques per rank like 3 wrist grab defenses, 3 sleeve grab defenses, 3 punch defenses, etc at white belt. While we teach techniques in sets of 12 or so at each rank. White belt 12 wrist grab jointlocks, Yellow 12 Throws. Orange Several clothing grab defenses (6 sleeve, 6 chest, 4 shoulder, etc).

[iron_ox]

Jointlock..
I statrted hapkido back in Nov. 2006 I am a yellow belt and and so far for this belt i have only been taught 2 throws, which are almost the same as 9 and 10 in white belt. My question is--Is every school that much different in the teaching of Hapkido?? I really like this Art.I take it at the ATC school in Corona Ca.-- Tell me what u think please-- Shaun

Hello all,

Shaun, yes, Hapkido varies considerably. Yur dojang appears to belog to the KHF- although this is tough to prove at times given that organizations embattled past - but there are a few here that could idnetify this as the case - maybe they will chime in.

Even within the KHF there is a great deal of difference in technical ability among the various schools. It is importqnt to remember that most, if not all of the KKF member kwans are branches from the seeds of Hapkido planted by Ji Han Jae - and while represents full 95% of the Hapkido practiced today in the world, it is infact a hybrid system from the original material that was taught from the systems founder, Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul.

Looks like you are at a fun school from the website, so have a great time training.

[iron_ox]

Take a look at this clip
The 67 judo throws of the Kodokan.
You will much of what we do.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1464560751681788897

Judo,Aikido,Hapkido are all off shoots of Jujitsu,with Hapkido and aikido as direct off shoots of Daito Ryu.

When Kano,the founder of Judovisited Ueshiba's Aikido school he said what he saw,at that time,was JUDO.

Aikido,(if done with kicks and strikes),as in certain older aikido styles is just like Hapkido with its violence of action and small circles as compared to later younger Aikido which is much more compliant and begins with very large circles.(aikido as it advances makes the circles smaller,we do the smaller circles off the start)


Hello all,

Jim while I agree with the second paragraph, I sould say that watching the 67 Kodokan throws only reinforces the notion that Hapkido throws are so much differnt in form and function. A hip toss may be a hip toss, BUT the way they are taught iun Hapkido is really so different from the vast majority of the Kodokan material. There is an off-balance first, followed by the throw, and perhaps there looks like some similarity, I believe they are quite different.

[iron_ox]

I'd say that most Hapkido schools teach the same thing, it's the order things are taught in that can be different.


Hello all,

This is absolutely not true. Many "Hapkido" dojang teach a dog's breakfast of things mashed together - very little of which is actually Hapkido.

While I agree that differnt dojang will have differnt curricula, and that many may teach the same technique. However, a great many "Hapkido" dojang do not tech the art at all, but a form of TKD with throws, or with added forms and non-Hapkido weapons - whatever satisfies the public of that area.

[Hapkido7]

Jointlock---
Thank u for the fast reply---I'll never quit or stop---

[Hapkido7]

Iron Ox....

Thanks for your input..Made me feel tons better.....

45 and still going!

[tkdhkddave]

I thought that way, way ,way back judo and hkd have a common link, but judo was developed for a more sport oriented function, whereas in hapkido the throws are more violent .I.E dropping people on their heads, throwing if and where possible and applicable with broken limbs etc so in my eyes while they can look the same the intent and purpose for the most part is quite different, not that i'm knocking judo here at all though as it can be just as painful at times!

Ok go ahead now you can flame me....

[JimH]

Judo and Hapkido do share a common link,Jujitsu ryu.

Kano trained for short periods in several jujitsu arts,he took what he liked and he made his own style ,which became the sport of Judo and which is said to have rejuvinated Jujitsu.

Kano sent members of his Judo sport (kodokan)to train with Takeda,Master of Daito ryu,(which is the art from which Hapkido comes),Kano also sent members to train with Ueshiba (also a student of Takeda)

So one may expect to see cross exchange in these varied arts.

One would expect that since Judo is from a Jujitsu ryu and Hapkido and Aikido are also from a jujitsu ryu that techniques would be similar.

When we look at Korean Judo(Yudo) we see variations from the Japanese stylists,perhaps early Hapkido instructors borrowed from Yudo type throws?

Kano went to Korea and Brought them Judo,which was changed and became Yudo.

And from USyudo.org
"Wherein then, does Yudo play its part in the Korean arts? Yudo is one of the three major traditional martial arts in Korea. It shares the same roots as Hapkido, even being considered by some as simply a Hapkido style which places particular emphasis on throwing. It also uses the striking techniques of traditional Taekwondo. "

So we see the cross play and interplay of the arts.

Example would be that Dr Kimm was a Yudo student,player and instructor long before he studied any Hapkido.
Would Yudo influence his choice of throws and his future Instruction? I think it may.

Just food for thought

[Mitz]

Happy Late B-Day--

Mine is also Jan. 2----but ahhhh just a long time ago lol
Happy Birthday !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hapkido Kiddo
Mitz aka Pamela

[GreenDragonHKD]

Blade 3,
I agree with you on the Monrovia Ca. HKD Dojang...my good friend Les Connard owns and teaches at that Dojang and he is a great Hapkido player,,,if anyone gets the chance to go check him out I highly recommend his Dojang...he's a good old school HKD GrandMaster and knows his stuff....

Kevin,
I agree with you on the HKD and Judo throws looking close to the same but different if youv'e studied both....the HKD throws if learned from the old school Korean GrandMasters tend to place the elbow, wrists, and shoulders in a different orientation during the throwing process that causes the body parts to be broken during the throw...when I studied Judo you intentionally didn't lock things out during the throws "because" it would break things....don't get me wrong...I love Judo and respect the crap out of it and believe it is a great martial art...the throws look close to the same but if you study with good people in HKD you will find out they are different as Kevin has stated....I had one Korean Grand Master tell me once that what people see as throwing in old style HKD is actually just the discarding of the body during the breaking!! Now that is a totally different kind of way to look at it...so in old style HKD there is not a throwing but a destruction of the opponents bones and joints and then he falls which in reality isn't really a throw...when you hear that and then learn the techniques....well it's a little different...and I believe much more akin to the older style battlefield jujitsu that we come from

also someone stated that they practiced small circle instead of large circle...in the older HKD systems you practice both...some work in certain circumstances and some work in others...depends on the situation, environment, and opponents body size...old school HKD has both...
Michael Tomlinson

[American HKD]

Blade 3,
I agree with you on the Monrovia Ca. HKD Dojang...my good friend Les Connard owns and teaches at that Dojang and he is a great Hapkido player,,,if anyone gets the chance to go check him out I highly recommend his Dojang...he's a good old school HKD GrandMaster and knows his stuff....

Kevin,
I agree with you on the HKD and Judo throws looking close to the same but different if youv'e studied both....the HKD throws if learned from the old school Korean GrandMasters tend to place the elbow, wrists, and shoulders in a different orientation during the throwing process that causes the body parts to be broken during the throw...when I studied Judo you intentionally didn't lock things out during the throws "because" it would break things....don't get me wrong...I love Judo and respect the crap out of it and believe it is a great martial art...the throws look close to the same but if you study with good people in HKD you will find out they are different as Kevin has stated....I had one Korean Grand Master tell me once that what people see as throwing in old style HKD is actually just the discarding of the body during the breaking!! Now that is a totally different kind of way to look at it...so in old style HKD there is not a throwing but a destruction of the opponents bones and joints and then he falls which in reality isn't really a throw...when you hear that and then learn the techniques....well it's a little different...and I believe much more akin to the older style battlefield jujitsu that we come from

also someone stated that they practiced small circle instead of large circle...in the older HKD systems you practice both...some work in certain circumstances and some work in others...depends on the situation, environment, and opponents body size...old school HKD has both...
Michael Tomlinson

Greetings

I agree with Mike that in combat the true HKD techs. are designed so there's no breakfall you just break before and after you hit the ground.

The throws direct you on to your head, neck, shoulders, etc....in such a way that the outcome is death, paralyzation, severe breaks, etc...

[klaasb]

The only problem is that need to refresh your practice partner once and a while ;)

[nj_howard]

Greetings

I agree with Mike that in combat the true HKD techs. are designed so there's no breakfall you just break before and after you hit the ground.

The throws direct you on to your head, neck, shoulders, etc....in such a way that the outcome is death, paralyzation, severe breaks, etc...
Good point, I think you and Mike T. are both right.

Our throws are closer to their Jujutsu origins than Judo's throws. As Mike T. points out, Judo throws altered the original Jujutsu techniques so they could be done safely in competition. The original throws were intended to break at least one of the three arm joints, and to cause serious damage when the attacker hit the ground.

I doubt that anybody would argue that we should train that way, but I think we should be aware of the original intent of throwing techniques, for the sake of history if for no other reason. It was not to score points in a competition. It was to kill your attacker.

[pauli]

it was my understanding that kano originally selected his techiniques so that they could be safely used in training, not competition per se. that focus came later.

[GreenDragonHKD]

One way we practice these throws at our dojang is to perform the "throw" with the lock out technique engaged and right before you get to the breaking point you ease up and change the orientation of your partners arm, neck, etc...and then throw him instead of breaking him....IMO that way you ingrain the proper self defense, old school technique and you still save your partner from harm....this also really teaches you the difference between the "judo" version and the old school version...by doing it this way you can not help but learn where the break will occur...

refreshing partners is pricey these days---LOL--as Klaas has mentioned!!

Michael Tomlinson

[Hapki-jutsu]

it's known that one of choi yong sul's first students (if not the first) was a yudo student, so naturally hapkido gained some yudo influence. one of the main differences is that in judo, more often than not you grab the persons clothing to throw them, and have to have your feet in a more specified position (feet inside of your opponents, with your knees pointing outward for example) for it to be considered truly judo. hapkido seems to be (to me) a little more forgiving in that regard, as long as they fly over your hip, it's a hip throw, and you don't necessarily have to grab in a predetermined manner, and not on necessarily the sleeve and lapel/belt.
your feet can be more parallel to your opponents, or even slightly outside of them in some cases.

whereas judo left out alot of the more dangerous techniques, they are still in hapkido. you could say that judo teaches only a small part of what you can learn in hapkido or jujutsu (traditional)

originally kano called what he taught kano ryu jujutsu, and later changed it to judo, to differentiate it from its predecessor. even classical jujutsu throws are not the same as judo throws, infact i think hapkido is closer to classical jujutsu (or aikijujutsu) than judo is.
where i think judo shines is in ne-waza (groundfighting)..at least more so than some other arts..but even kodokan has moved away from that and emphasize throwing over everything else.
as was mentioned in an earlier thread, judo isn't really self defense oriented, there is a self defense kata or two that deal with strikes and weapons, but you only train those aspects in kata, never in randori.

i think basically to get hapkido without studying it, you would have to study, tkd/karate, judo/jujutsu, and aikido/aikijujutsu. ..with hapkido you get all of those things and more all in one package. you could go into any martial art school and do well, or any tournament even if its not your style and hold your own...and/or adapt to that art rather quickly i think.

[nj_howard]

it's known that one of choi yong sul's first students (if not the first) was a yudo student...
That's right.

...so naturally hapkido gained some yudo influence...
There's no evidence that what Choi taught was influenced by Judo. His accounts were always consistent: he taught only what he learned in Japan, which he always maintained was Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. We know that what he learned was a form of Aikijujutsu, probably Daito-ryu or an art influenced by Daito-ryu.

one of the main differences is that in judo, more often than not you grab the persons clothing to throw them, and have to have your feet in a more specified position (feet inside of your opponents, with your knees pointing outward for example) for it to be considered truly judo. hapkido seems to be (to me) a little more forgiving in that regard, as long as they fly over your hip, it's a hip throw, and you don't necessarily have to grab in a predetermined manner, and not on necessarily the sleeve and lapel/belt.
your feet can be more parallel to your opponents, or even slightly outside of them in some cases.

I don't know, that's contrary to my exerience with Hapkido throws. Our throws use precise grabs, foot positioning, posture and movement. And, of course, the immediate unbalancing of the attacker.

i think basically to get hapkido without studying it, you would have to study, tkd/karate, judo/jujutsu, and aikido/aikijujutsu...with hapkido you get all of those things and more all in one package. you could go into any martial art school and do well, or any tournament even if its not your style and hold your own...and/or adapt to that art rather quickly i think.

If you wanted to get something close to Choi's original art, you wouldn't spend any time with Karate, TKD or Aikido. Aikijujutsu would be all you'd need.

As for tournaments... again in the context of Choi's art, tournaments don't make sense. The art he taught had no competitive/sporting aspect whatsoever.

[Hapki-jutsu]

"There's no evidence that what Choi taught was influenced by Judo. His accounts were always consistent: he taught only what he learned in Japan, which he always maintained was Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. We know that what he learned was a form of Aikijujutsu, probably Daito-ryu or an art influenced by Daito-ryu."

technically there's no evidence that he ever met or trained with sokaku takeda either that i know of. and his accounts were as you say always consistent..he trained with sokaku takeda. but takeda wasnt known for teaching at a school, but travelling throughout japan teaching seminars. but most everyone seems to accept that he did train with takeda. mas oyama's(a known korean) name is in the ledger, why isnt choi's? i may be wrong but the japanese name he went by while in japan isn't in there either.

i've also read that choi developed techniques to defend against judo...so if that's true then he WAS infact influenced at least in some way by judo/yudo. not to mention hapkido has evolved since choi, so not everyone who says hapkido is talking strictly about what choi taught.


"I don't know, that's contrary to my exerience with Hapkido throws. Our throws use precise grabs, foot positioning, posture and movement. And, of course, the immediate unbalancing of the attacker"

maybe i misspoke myself there, i didnt mean to imply you can grab anywhere you want (which you can really) ...i just meant that from my limited experience with hapkido they dont put 'as much' emphasis on your foot position in relation to your attackers. but again thats just from my experience. you won't see a judo-ka grab the attackers head/neck to throw him for example. they will grab the gi.


"If you wanted to get something close to Choi's original art, you wouldn't spend any time with Karate, TKD or Aikido. Aikijujutsu would be all you'd need.

As for tournaments... again in the context of Choi's art, tournaments don't make sense. The art he taught had no competitive/sporting aspect whatsoever"

again, not all hapkido is "choi's hapkido" which..arguably was or was not called hapkido (another discussion)
look all over the place and you'll see hapkido students doing all sorts of karate/tkd-ish kicks, judo/jujutsu type locks and throws, as well as aiki throws and locks..many of which overlap. the point was...practically no other art will teach you all of that, and to get the 'equivalent' of hapkido (as most people know it) you'd have to study 3 separate arts.

on tournaments...again...you assume the whole choi thing. and again you missed the point...you COULD go to any school, for any art, or any tournament and do well there using hapkido. that was the point.

[doc97]

I'm not sure this is the right place, but isn't Yudo considered more "self defense" oriented, and Judo more sport oriented? My Judo instructor told me there was no difference, but if you look at the Yudo website, it's seem's to me more of what Kano was originally teaching, a form of self defense that can be taught and practiced with live training. It has been said that when Kano viewed a sports Judo competition, he said "this is not my Judo." Just curious what you KMA guys think who have more experience with it than me.

Also, didn't at the beginning of the 20th century, some Koreans were going over and training in the traditional Judo, and then brought their training back to Korea? If thats the case, it would definately make sense for "cross polination of the arts" Just curious, you guys know more Korean MA history that I. Thanks. (I am getting this info from JMA guys)

[Hapki-jutsu]

they like to say that. but truthfully..judo is yudo, yudo is judo...or if you like...judo is judo.

professor Kano, as far as i've read in his books, never meant judo to be a fighting system first and foremost. it was meant as a form of physical education, and to make people better citizens to serve their society and country....in a martial arts format. while at the same time, being 'attack and defense'

it may be closer to what Kano originally intended, but who's to say for sure?

my take on it is...its judo, it's just pronounced yudo in korean.

similarly...karate-do is pronounced tang soo do in korean.

sure there are differences, but you could say that between schools even in the same country.

i've heard the phrase "culturally patterned judo"..i think that pretty much sums it up.

they have yudo tournaments, just like they have judo tournaments.

the differences may be likened to how they practice judo in russia for example (not sambo) ...they use different grips..and/or change small aspects to suit their body type...rather than sticking to "that which was created by Jigoro Kano" strictly (and in my opinion...missing the entire point)

just my two cents

[doc97]

Yeah, thats kinda what I thought. My one instructor did say that Judo was the first martial art taught to the Japanese Police. That being said, Korea has a lot of good competitive Yudo or Judo players!

[Living_symbiote]

Hello all,

This is absolutely not true. Many "Hapkido" dojang teach a dog's breakfast of things mashed together - very little of which is actually Hapkido.

While I agree that differnt dojang will have differnt curricula, and that many may teach the same technique. However, a great many "Hapkido" dojang do not tech the art at all, but a form of TKD with throws, or with added forms and non-Hapkido weapons - whatever satisfies the public of that area.
so how could u decipher as to whether or not the hapkido school of your choice that you want to go to is really authentic "hapkido" or not? Like what are soe things to watch out for and warning signs of a hapkido school really just being a lae TKD school with a couple of throws??

[Bruce W Sims]

so how could u decipher as to whether or not the hapkido school of your choice that you want to go to is really authentic "hapkido" or not? Like what are soe things to watch out for and warning signs of a hapkido school really just being a lae TKD school with a couple of throws??


Well, I suppose you could start with some of the more obvious indicators.

Right off the bat I would probably avoid places that represent that they teach Hapkido arts "along with" a variety of other arts ("...'cause its all just the same stuff anyhow.")

While its not a guarentee, if the person is affiliated with a Hapkido organization at least he moves in circles that are aligned, generally, with what Hapkido people do.

Also not a guarentee, but at least a good indicator is an extended relationship with a particular teacher. Just about anyone can get "fancy wall-paper" these days, but if a person has been with a teacher for quite a while thats usually a pretty good sign.

Try to avoid "one-off" or obscure groups. This need not mean that the group might be unfamiliar to YOU. Rather, what I am talking about are groups that noone in the Hapkido community has heard of or a teacher that noone knows.

Lastly, not all Hapkido arts are created equal. For instance the International Hapkido Federation (Korea) is far more heavily influenced by Aikido. The Kuksoolwon is much more heavily influenced by Sippalki as is the HwaRangDo. The Jungkikwan and Yongsulkwan tend to be far more focused on material closest to what CHOI Yong Sul taught in the second half of his teaching career.

Pick carefully; ask questions.

BTW: CHOI Yong Sul had only been identified with the practice of Yawara until many, many years later when the idea of him having "mastered" DRAJJ became promoted. To date, we have no hard evidence that he may have been exposed to DRAJJ material of one sort or another. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasn't. Noone knows, and there is no hard evidence.
As far as his material changing, its very hard to tell since different people practice and report different things at different times over quite a long period of time.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

Hapkido is Hapkido.
There are really no styles of it. Only different kwans.
But that's just another way to see it.
For me, is not only learning the technique but to develop it.... to understand it first with your brain, then... with your heart... and last, with your liver!!! (if you know what I mean).
KSW, HMD, IHFBSH, IHF, Hankido, TKMS, HJMS, KHF, JJK, MJK, SMHKD, ICHF, HSKD, etc.... everything, at the very end all is ... HAPKIDO.
But if you are a purist, and emphasize the subtile differences.... then my hapkido maybe not your hapkido, and everyone can have it's own interpretation... cause Hapkido is an art. And as an art, it is human expression under human own interpretation. Then Hapkido is unique in everyone.

I like more the yudo-hip like throws... not to understimate the aikido-like ones.... but for me, real Hapkido is not about how much can you jump in the air and fall on the mat without harming .... for me, Hapkido is aggressive (but intelligente), it is strong (but not brutal strength), is fast (but not just flashy) and it is after all, technique (but not only metaphysical-spiritual thing-ki like).

Very hard to say, what's hapkido and what's not. I've seen many (for me) Hapkido techniques in Bruce Lee's movies, even in Jackie Chan's movies. For my master, Tedeschi's book, is too influenced by jiujitsu and aikido moves...., so who knows? Every thing, at the end comes from China, and before that, from India. That's why many hapkido techniques, are very similar to jiujitsu, judo, taijitsu, chin-na/qin-na, shuai-jiao, etc..... they share the very same root. We all have 4 limbs after all.

Peace.

[Bruce W Sims]

I don't know if this will help the discussion but I throw it out for what its worth (fwiw).

"Judo is Yudo and Yudo is Judo" has become pretty much a true statement. However there are some small things to take into consideration.

The Korean culture had its own form of grappling as descended most probably from the material of the tribes of the Asian steppe. The modern sport version of this is SSIREUM and is still practiced in Korea today. During the Japanese Occupation various Japanese MA traditions were taught in Korea and Manchuria ("Manchukuo") including Aikido and Judo. This Pre-War and War-time Judo is not the Olympic material with which we have all become familiar. To make things even more confused, it has become fashionable to teach various mixes of throws and avoid accountability for poor execution by saying that what one is teaching is "Yudo" rather than "Judo".

So, where does that leave us?

Well, first off, there really is a "Yudo". Unlike its Judo counterpart it tends to have a much greater "wrestling" feel to it with splayed legs, a variety of neck throws, hip throws, trips, kicks and punches. Knees and elbows are legal though targeting joints, eyes and groin as well as gouging and ripping are no longer allowed.

A second quality is that, owing to the Japanese influence there is a great deal more "groundwork" or "finishing work" than traditionally used. Most of this is not found in Olympic Judo but is still practiced in traditional schools and can be found in derivatives such as Brazillian Ju-jutsu.

Lastly, people who are interested in finding a Yudo school will be hard pressed to find an authentic teacher. The influence of Japanese traditions, the rough nature of the activity and the allure of modern living has caused both Yudo and Ssireum to be marginalized in almost all but the most conservative and obscure populations and I personally don't hold much hope for its survival. FWIW.

BTW: There is quite a bit of Judo material available for people to examine. However, as a counterpoint if people would like to see Ssireum there is a tape available which does a pretty decent job (See: Turtle Publications). Individuals who are interested in seeing something closer to Pre-War Yudo might be advised to examine availble material regarding Mongolian and Manchurian Wrestling.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

BTW: CHOI Yong Sul had only been identified with the practice of Yawara until many, many years later when the idea of him having "mastered" DRAJJ became promoted. To date, we have no hard evidence that he may have been exposed to DRAJJ material of one sort or another. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasn't. Noone knows, and there is no hard evidence.
As far as his material changing, its very hard to tell since different people practice and report different things at different times over quite a long period of time.


Again, we found and can discuse a very controversial issue: History and roots of Hapkido.
All you said, is correct. But depends on who you believe.
Choi himself, said he studied under Takeda, even as almost an adopted son of him (improbable, but that's what he said). But DRAJJ records, deny him (many reasons about this can be also true). But if Choi, didn't study in DR... how did he know all what he knew? Other theories about, someone else from DR, who taught Choi... well... who knows?
And the "yawara" calling for his very first art... well, depends on who you believe too. If you believe in Ji, or Suh (from KSW), that's true. But for some others (as Rim), had said, that Choi himself wanted to his art been called "Hapkido" since the beginning.
But wasn't that about what we were talking: Yudo throws.
Maybe the SSirum influence and north-middle asian/mongolian native ways of wrestling theories you said are very true. But, as I used to understand it, Yudo is the korean pronunciation of Judo (japanese), very similar but only one throwing technique that is different. I'm not an expert, but trying to avoid the nationalism that surrounds much of korean martial arts, the truth is that much of them came from japanese (lately) influence, and chinese (early) influence.

Best regards.

[American HKD]

Listen guys, most countries that developed MA have some type of native throws and some type of joint locks, etc....

However that does mean in any way that what was imported like Judo to Korea is in any way a native Korean system.

What it means is Korean MA had some throws, just like CMA, FMA, Western MA, all have some throws too.

Bruce sometimes will try to spin modern Korean MA (import) into a native system that was always present or lost/recovered and just came (full circle). This is a historian with a obvious agenda regarding KMA.

Never the less he's very informative if you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Confucius said: "if your grandma had balls she be your grandpa!" :D"

[Bruce W Sims]

Again, we found and can discuse a very controversial issue: History and roots of Hapkido.
All you said, is correct. But depends on who you believe.
Choi himself, said he studied under Takeda, even as almost an adopted son of him (improbable, but that's what he said). But DRAJJ records, deny him (many reasons about this can be also true). But if Choi, didn't study in DR... how did he know all what he knew? Other theories about, someone else from DR, who taught Choi... well... who knows?
And the "yawara" calling for his very first art... well, depends on who you believe too. If you believe in Ji, or Suh (from KSW), that's true. But for some others (as Rim), had said, that Choi himself wanted to his art been called "Hapkido" since the beginning.
But wasn't that about what we were talking: Yudo throws.
Maybe the SSirum influence and north-middle asian/mongolian native ways of wrestling theories you said are very true. But, as I used to understand it, Yudo is the korean pronunciation of Judo (japanese), very similar but only one throwing technique that is different. I'm not an expert, but trying to avoid the nationalism that surrounds much of korean martial arts, the truth is that much of them came from japanese (lately) influence, and chinese (early) influence.

Best regards.

Thanks, Hyung. What you say is very true. The word for how Korean martial traditions developed is called "accretion" and is very much like a snowball rolling downhill and gathering mass as it goes. What is poorly understood is the manner in which decisions were made as to what was added to the "snowball" and what was not. My own research has been going on for quite a few years and I only get small insights at a time into how such decisions are made.

To make matters harder there are constant "reports" of how these decisions came about, including retreats to the mountains for inspiration, mastery of this or that system, major conflicts or wars and just plain propaganda. An important part of examining is to keep subjectivity to a minimum as well as trying to rely on "oral tradition" (IE. "I heard..."; "Mr. Smith said..."). We need to work towards sticking to with as much sound scholarship as we can and that means finding documents, records and concensus among multiple first-person accounts. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[doc97]

I don't know if this will help the discussion but I throw it out for what its worth (fwiw).

"Judo is Yudo and Yudo is Judo" has become pretty much a true statement. However there are some small things to take into consideration.

The Korean culture had its own form of grappling as descended most probably from the material of the tribes of the Asian steppe. The modern sport version of this is SSIREUM and is still practiced in Korea today. During the Japanese Occupation various Japanese MA traditions were taught in Korea and Manchuria ("Manchukuo") including Aikido and Judo. This Pre-War and War-time Judo is not the Olympic material with which we have all become familiar. To make things even more confused, it has become fashionable to teach various mixes of throws and avoid accountability for poor execution by saying that what one is teaching is "Yudo" rather than "Judo".

So, where does that leave us?

Well, first off, there really is a "Yudo". Unlike its Judo counterpart it tends to have a much greater "wrestling" feel to it with splayed legs, a variety of neck throws, hip throws, trips, kicks and punches. Knees and elbows are legal though targeting joints, eyes and groin as well as gouging and ripping are no longer allowed.

A second quality is that, owing to the Japanese influence there is a great deal more "groundwork" or "finishing work" than traditionally used. Most of this is not found in Olympic Judo but is still practiced in traditional schools and can be found in derivatives such as Brazillian Ju-jutsu.

Lastly, people who are interested in finding a Yudo school will be hard pressed to find an authentic teacher. The influence of Japanese traditions, the rough nature of the activity and the allure of modern living has caused both Yudo and Ssireum to be marginalized in almost all but the most conservative and obscure populations and I personally don't hold much hope for its survival. FWIW.

BTW: There is quite a bit of Judo material available for people to examine. However, as a counterpoint if people would like to see Ssireum there is a tape available which does a pretty decent job (See: Turtle Publications). Individuals who are interested in seeing something closer to Pre-War Yudo might be advised to examine availble material regarding Mongolian and Manchurian Wrestling.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Wow, thats a lot of information I didn't know. Very interesting. It almost sounds like combat sambo in a way. Too bad it's very hard to find in the US. Thanks Bruce!

[Hyung]

Thanks, Hyung. What you say is very true. The word for how Korean martial traditions developed is called "accretion" and is very much like a snowball rolling downhill and gathering mass as it goes. What is poorly understood is the manner in which decisions were made as to what was added to the "snowball" and what was not. My own research has been going on for quite a few years and I only get small insights at a time into how such decisions are made.

To make matters harder there are constant "reports" of how these decisions came about, including retreats to the mountains for inspiration, mastery of this or that system, major conflicts or wars and just plain propaganda. An important part of examining is to keep subjectivity to a minimum as well as trying to rely on "oral tradition" (IE. "I heard..."; "Mr. Smith said..."). We need to work towards sticking to with as much sound scholarship as we can and that means finding documents, records and concensus among multiple first-person accounts. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Dear Bruce:

You definitely, don't wright like many other martial artists.
You sound as an very intelligent and prepared (academically).
Thanks for your information.

Best regards.

Hyung.

[Bruce W Sims]

Dear Bruce:

You definitely, don't wright like many other martial artists.
You sound as an very intelligent and prepared (academically).
Thanks for your information.

Best regards.

Hyung.

Thanks, Hyung:

One of the goals I have for participating in forums like this is to encourage people to communicate intelligently about the MA and to share as much information and sources as they can. Certainly there are plenty of places where kids can chatter, beginners can ask questions and even sites where people can argue and bicker if thats their taste. I'm hoping that by routinely making informative posts, we can show that a person who practices MA can have friendly intelligent exchanges---- even disagreements---- and come away with more information than they had to start. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[iron_ox]

Dear Bruce:

You definitely, don't wright like many other martial artists.
You sound as an very intelligent and prepared (academically).
Thanks for your information.

Best regards.

Hyung.


Hello Hyung,

You are, of course, free to feel as you want...but DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID here...

[Hyung]

Dear Bruce:

You definitely, don't wright like many other martial artists.
You sound as an very intelligent and prepared (academically).
Thanks for your information.

Best regards.

Hyung.

Sorry: write and no wright... and sound as a very intelligent and prepared (academically) person.

I do understand english, but I'm not a native speaker.

[Hyung]

Hello Hyung,

You are, of course, free to feel as you want...but DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID here...

Sorry... I'm not a native speaker, and of course, not familiar with slangy expressions. Please... what is to drink the kool-aid here???

I'm not trying to please anyone for free. Does that bothers you someway???

Lately, I just expressed my feeling, very freely in the TKD, and they labelled me as: narrow minded, stereotypic, and even moron. Some dude, even marked me on the list of dudes that can't attack directly to anybody.

I just decently apollogize. A sincere apollogy, means, that is not expected to be accepted. Wasn't my intention to hurt, or make angry anyone.

These kind of forums are a great opportunity to share information, and to LEARN. But, unfortunately, what I have found in many MA forums, are only arrogant people with a very big ego (I'm not saying this about you, please).

I think that in this world, what we need less is more arrogant with bad attitude and aggressive guys. It's just nice to meet someone with kindness.

Best regards.
Hyung

[Bruce W Sims]

Good thoughts, Hyung:

One thing that I have found about the INTERNET is that it can be a great way to get information for people who may not have the advantage of a source, of time or of money wherever they are located. For many years the Martial art community was pretty much only for people who had money and time to get involved. People who do not have money or are located where there are no resources could not be involved. I want to think that the INTERNET has changed that, if we use it well.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Unhfireboy2007]

One of my Hap Ki Do instructors described the art as "Aikido's nasty cousin." basically saying there are many techniques that are a like, except they done with small circles and the intention of causing injury (breaking bones, forceful landing).