can it be stopped?

[Living_symbiote]

As you know, I have been watching a lot of the old classic ufc fights , you know with guys like Shamrock and
Royce Gracie, and it appears to me that this guy royce just cannot be stopped. Its amazing but annoying at the same time. Thats why Im really considering silat because I hear they have angular techniques as far as with striking and grappling. But give me your feedback, it just seems to me that brazilian ju-jitsu is like a juggernaut. is there a way you can evade the close-quarters of bjj, somehow? I just dont see how you can , many a boxers, muay thaiers, tae kwon doers, karate-ers, and almost every other form of martial arts has fallen to the hands of the gracie family. Im thinking aikido or what not because it kind of practices evasion, or capoeira, or ninjutsu, because I just hate wrestling, and want to do whatever I can to get out of a wrestling hold or not even get put into the situation. What ma do you think is useful for evading wrestling shooting and techniques? Silat? give me your feedback.

[Gajah Silat]

Mate, you are risking creating another monster like this.....

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60945

and don't even get me started on fighting in spandex hotpants ;) :p

[pauli]

As you know, I have been watching a lot of the old classic ufc fights , you know with guys like Shamrock and
Royce Gracie, and it appears to me that this guy royce just cannot be stopped. Its amazing but annoying at the same time. Thats why Im really considering silat because I hear they have angular techniques as far as with striking and grappling. But give me your feedback, it just seems to me that brazilian ju-jitsu is like a juggernaut. is there a way you can evade the close-quarters of bjj, somehow? I just dont see how you can , many a boxers, muay thaiers, tae kwon doers, karate-ers, and almost every other form of martial arts has fallen to the hands of the gracie family. Im thinking aikido or what not because it kind of practices evasion, or capoeira, or ninjutsu, because I just hate wrestling, and want to do whatever I can to get out of a wrestling hold or not even get put into the situation. What ma do you think is useful for evading wrestling shooting and techniques? Silat? give me your feedback.
i ask this with all due respect, but: are you trapped in a time warp?

the answers you seek can be found in the training of those who defend against takedowns and submission for a living.

[Kwan Jang]

Look at Royce's fights after his brother was hand picking the opponents. He has been stopped several times. Royce, as well as many other Gracies and BJJ practitioners, is a good fighter. In the early UFC's, he capitalized on a weakness that many of his opponents had and had neglected in their training. OTOH, there were a LOT of other guys around at the time who could both strike and grapple. Also, the fighters that were chosen to "represent" the other disciplines were in many cases sub-par or their credentials exagerated by Rorion (the promoter of the early UFC's) and his people. A classic example is listing Kimo as a 3rd dan in Tae Kwon Do when he had only been training for 6 months.

I would like to mention that I believe that there were MANY things that came out of the early UFC's that benefitted the overall martial arts community. Including a stronger emphasis on live training, more cross training, a greater integration of cross training skills (i.e. better flow in the combination of stand up and ground, striking and grappling), almost everyone (at least those who don't bury their heads in the sand) becoming much more well rounded in their skills, ect. Also, in a way, it showed to the general public that a skilled pro-level fighter lke Gracie could easily demolish much bigger, stronger opponents who may not have been as skilled, but were reall tough guys. (Before the UFC's, for most guys who hung around the bars, this was in doubt).

For all the "BJJ nutriders" out there getting ready to flame me for telling it like it really is, keep a few things in mind. I train in and teach a MMA system that includes submission grappling and BJJ is a large part of that (mixed in with judo, sambo, and wrestling). I've trained with some of the Gracies, as well as several UFC veterans and champs (and many not just at seminars either). I do have respect for what Royce truly accomplished, but I also know what parts of his rep were his real fighting skills and what parts were more to do with marketing skills.

Royce and the early UFC's were good for the evolution of the martial arts, but his fight with Matt Hughes illustrated how far things have evolved from there. Only the most unrealistic and die-hard fans of the Gracies would imagine any different outcome between Royce and ANY of the current top contenders. Matt easily dominated every aspect of that fight, including the gound work AND the grappling. He had a solid arm bar and was confident enough in his "owning" of Royce from the ground that he released him rather than hurting Royce because Royce was too proud to tap. Of course, everyone should know that ANY Hughes would destroy ANY Gracie. -David Hughes :) .

[fire cobra]

Things have moved on a lot! bjj is still a very good grapling art though :)

[ironknuckles]

It might be an idea to take up a BJJ class or two, you don't have to wear the spandex most of the time they wear their own gi. Thus if you have a better underdstanding of it, then there is not as much of a reason to be afraid of it becuase you are more prepared for it. As stated before many people specialize in preventing takedowns and I am sure that if you start Silat, eventually your Guru will impart such techniques to you. Who knows you might even have an advantage over them with some BJJ training. In the end its entirely up to you, simply my view. Peace

[Rebo Paing]

It might be an idea to take up a BJJ class or two, you don't have to wear the spandex most of the time they wear their own gi. Thus if you have a better underdstanding of it, then there is not as much of a reason to be afraid of it becuase you are more prepared for it. ...

Excellent advice! :D

Salam,
Krisno

[Wali]

I personally think that we owe a world of grattitude to the Gracies. They spearheaded the unveiling of the farce that a lot of the martial arts world was living under. It means that people will be less likely to be fooled by a podgy man, claiming to have awesome mystical powers, who is out to take your cash, and potentially leave you prone to a good kicking in the event that you had to rely on the "skills" they would teach you.

No art is unbeatable, and there will always be something to counter something else. For example, strikers are now getting the upper hand again in the MMA tournaments (GSP, Chuck Liddell, etc...), so the BJJ game has been "sussed out" somewhat.

Anything that makes us think about our own training, and help discern what will work and what won't work is a good thing.

(I am not even gonna talk about weapons, etc.. and are leaving it at just the basic, unarmed one on one scenario)

[slipthejab]

Man the original post is like something out of a time-warp.

I was shocked to look up and see it was actually posted recently and not 5 years before and someone just dug it up. :eek:

Concerning this subject there is only one word everyone needs to know....

Sakuraba.

[Knight_Errant]

By now, royce gracie's pure grappling has been thoroughly subverted. The modern MMA style is much more balanced and has become a style in its own right. So yes, it can be stopped. The first step is to embrace grappling- learning basics such as the sprawl and some classic groundwork positions and transitions. The second is to reintegrate that into a more balanced style of fighting. Does silat include a lot of clinch work?

[PASmith]

What Royce (and BJJ) exploited in those early days was...

A. The natural tendency of fights to quickly go to clinching (if a dicisive strike isn't landed) and once there for people to fall over (no matter what style the practitioners).
B. Most people can't fight on the floor and wouldn't know an arm-bar if they got caught in one.

Therefore the way to beat a grappler is to "counter" these things by...

A. Avoiding, stopping, breaking or dominating the clinch. And not falling over as you do so.
B. Recognising submission set-ups and how to avoid getting caught in them.

When people started doing that grappling only fighters stopped dominating and modern MMA was born.

The end.

[Wali]

The second is to reintegrate that into a more balanced style of fighting. Does silat include a lot of clinch work?
Some systems do, other systems don't... What I practice has lots and lots... and then lots more....

There are also other arts we teach such as Penjang Gulat which only focus on grappling and wrestling.

[Angelus]

Man the original post is like something out of a time-warp.

I was shocked to look up and see it was actually posted recently and not 5 years before and someone just dug it up. :eek:

Concerning this subject there is only one word everyone needs to know....

Sakuraba.
OOOOOOH YEAAA

[Gajah Silat]

Some systems do, other systems don't... What I practice has lots and lots... and then lots more....

There are also other arts we teach such as Penjang Gulat which only focus on grappling and wrestling.

In close is in control ;)

I'm sure I have read Gulat influenced by Iranian wrestling? I suppose this yet again shows how syncretic Indonesia is with regard to combat arts. After all Silat is an MMA............

Another purely grappling I have heard of is Okol from Madura, which is something I'm going to dig into on my next trip.

[Wali]

In close is in control ;)

I'm sure I have read Gulat influenced by Iranian wrestling? I suppose this yet again shows how syncretic Indonesia is with regard to combat arts. After all Silat is an MMA............

Another purely grappling I have heard of is Okol from Madura, which is something I'm going to dig into on my next trip.
A lot of the Gulat and the original Indonesian grappling has it's root in the ancient Satria systems, from the Veidic period.

From there, there are ancient Persian influences (Way before it became Iran)... and yes... MMA in it's essence has been around for hundreds of years!

[Gajah Silat]

A lot of the Gulat and the original Indonesian grappling has it's root in the ancient Satria systems, from the Veidic period.

From there, there are ancient Persian influences (Way before it became Iran)... and yes... MMA in it's essence has been around for hundreds of years!

I think it was Narayan that wrote of Indonesia, "India is everywhere but I do not see it".

Certainly trade routes between the Middle East, Central Asia & the far East were well established by the first millenium.....let's not forget the Cornish traded tin with the phoenicians.....and the vikings traded silk with the Chinese..and the Indonesians got to Madagascar...

I think we far far underestimate the scope of cultural difusionalism in antiquity, and that of course includes combat arts and weaponry.

Well, that's certainly taken the thread off on a tangent :D

[Narrue]

Wrestling can even be found in ancient Sumer probably the oldest of martial arts.

[Living_symbiote]

Look at Royce's fights after his brother was hand picking the opponents. He has been stopped several times. Royce, as well as many other Gracies and BJJ practitioners, is a good fighter. In the early UFC's, he capitalized on a weakness that many of his opponents had and had neglected in their training. OTOH, there were a LOT of other guys around at the time who could both strike and grapple. Also, the fighters that were chosen to "represent" the other disciplines were in many cases sub-par or their credentials exagerated by Rorion (the promoter of the early UFC's) and his people. A classic example is listing Kimo as a 3rd dan in Tae Kwon Do when he had only been training for 6 months.

I would like to mention that I believe that there were MANY things that came out of the early UFC's that benefitted the overall martial arts community. Including a stronger emphasis on live training, more cross training, a greater integration of cross training skills (i.e. better flow in the combination of stand up and ground, striking and grappling), almost everyone (at least those who don't bury their heads in the sand) becoming much more well rounded in their skills, ect. Also, in a way, it showed to the general public that a skilled pro-level fighter lke Gracie could easily demolish much bigger, stronger opponents who may not have been as skilled, but were reall tough guys. (Before the UFC's, for most guys who hung around the bars, this was in doubt).

For all the "BJJ nutriders" out there getting ready to flame me for telling it like it really is, keep a few things in mind. I train in and teach a MMA system that includes submission grappling and BJJ is a large part of that (mixed in with judo, sambo, and wrestling). I've trained with some of the Gracies, as well as several UFC veterans and champs (and many not just at seminars either). I do have respect for what Royce truly accomplished, but I also know what parts of his rep were his real fighting skills and what parts were more to do with marketing skills.

Royce and the early UFC's were good for the evolution of the martial arts, but his fight with Matt Hughes illustrated how far things have evolved from there. Only the most unrealistic and die-hard fans of the Gracies would imagine any different outcome between Royce and ANY of the current top contenders. Matt easily dominated every aspect of that fight, including the gound work AND the grappling. He had a solid arm bar and was confident enough in his "owning" of Royce from the ground that he released him rather than hurting Royce because Royce was too proud to tap. Of course, everyone should know that ANY Hughes would destroy ANY Gracie. -David Hughes :) .

Really, I did not know that! I mean , I know who Matt Hughes is, but I thought he was kind of washed up, and I would NEVER have expected him to defeat royce gracie, is that war on youtube?

[Living_symbiote]

I personally think that we owe a world of grattitude to the Gracies. They spearheaded the unveiling of the farce that a lot of the martial arts world was living under. It means that people will be less likely to be fooled by a podgy man, claiming to have awesome mystical powers, who is out to take your cash, and potentially leave you prone to a good kicking in the event that you had to rely on the "skills" they would teach you.

No art is unbeatable, and there will always be something to counter something else. For example, strikers are now getting the upper hand again in the MMA tournaments (GSP, Chuck Liddell, etc...), so the BJJ game has been "sussed out" somewhat.

Anything that makes us think about our own training, and help discern what will work and what won't work is a good thing.

(I am not even gonna talk about weapons, etc.. and are leaving it at just the basic, unarmed one on one scenario)

Really, Chuck Liddell?? Hey guys, I'm not trying to diss but I didnt think too much of him either, I mean his boxing form isnt orthodox at all, neither is his punching technique. I mean, I come from a background of watching boxers go at it, like Zab Judah, and Floyd Mayweather and then I watch UFC, and their form and techniques just look sloppy. I think the MMa fighters really need to incorporate a heck of a lot more boxing techniques, there really hasnt been a fighter in the ufc to really utilize and combine boxing technique with that of others. Do you agree?

[Living_symbiote]

Man the original post is like something out of a time-warp.

I was shocked to look up and see it was actually posted recently and not 5 years before and someone just dug it up. :eek:

Concerning this subject there is only one word everyone needs to know....

Sakuraba.

I'm not tryna sound "inexperienced", even though I am, slipthejab, but what does, "Sakuraba" mean?

[Wali]

Really, Chuck Liddell?? Hey guys, I'm not trying to diss but I didnt think too much of him either, I mean his boxing form isnt orthodox at all, neither is his punching technique. I mean, I come from a background of watching boxers go at it, like Zab Judah, and Floyd Mayweather and then I watch UFC, and their form and techniques just look sloppy. I think the MMa fighters really need to incorporate a heck of a lot more boxing techniques, there really hasnt been a fighter in the ufc to really utilize and combine boxing technique with that of others. Do you agree?
i am using chuck as an example and comparing him to OTHER UFC fighters to keep it all in context. The fact that you are also prone to suddenly being kneed, elbowed, choked out, etc... at any moment, means that you can't always afford the luxury of developing orthodox punching stances and technique, as you may have to suddenly pull off a takedown revesal or the like...

I do think that UFC fighters, as a whole, are very well rounded physically in all ranges... However, watching Tito Ortiz speak on several occassions, perhaps the mental aspect needs to be worked on a little harder... ;)

[Ular Sawa]

I'm not tryna sound "inexperienced", even though I am, slipthejab, but what does, "Sakuraba" mean?

He was the Gracie Hunter. Try doing a search and you'll find out lots of information.

As for your other posts, someone may not have the cleanest looking, pretty technique but things like timing, distance, power, and other attributes do come into play. Who'd want to get hit by Chuck?

As for your original question, foot work and elbows worked pretty well in a few dust ups that I recall back in the late 90s.

[Gajah Silat]

Wrestling can even be found in ancient Sumer probably the oldest of martial arts.

:eek: But that would mean.........there was grappling before the Gracies :eek:

[PASmith]

Put Floyd Mayweather in the UFC and his boxing technique would probably turn sloppy too. There's just so much more happening in MMA to look out for. So many more ways for your opponent to mess up your game plan.

[fire cobra]

My opinion is muay thai is better for mma than boxing,more often than not it has been proven that when muay thai vs boxing matches take place the thai boxing method wins,of course the boxer always has a punchers chance,there lies the value of boxing..a ko! :)

[Narrue]

:eek: But that would mean.........there was grappling before the Gracies :eek:


Shock horror :D

[Cannibal Bob]

He was the Gracie Hunter.
My first thought when reading that was "That is such a cool name."

My second thought was of Sakuraba tip-toeing through the woods in a hunting hat holding a shotgun saying "Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting Gwacies, ha ha ha ha ha ha."

[Angelus]

My first thought when reading that was "That is such a cool name."

My second thought was of Sakuraba tip-toeing through the woods in a hunting hat holding a shotgun saying "Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting Gwacies, ha ha ha ha ha ha."
AND THEN U SEE BAMBI RUNNIN ACROSS!!!!...
o wait ..... BAMBI HAS ROYCE's FACE! HAHAH
:D