"Size(or strength) matters not"

[Joshua Powell]

I've spoken in a couple of threads just about the beariers that i've had to break in martial arts. Including one of finding out what I could do in a self defence way. For instance, since I was in a wheel chair for the most part of my younger life, I didn't have a whole lot of strength, I don't have much now by the way. So when sombody would try to wrestle me to the ground my guess is there thoughts would be like"I can take this guy, I'm probably a ton stronger then he is" or something like that. Well there are more ways to protect yourself with just your bare hands even if you don't have alot of strength. I've been doing a martial art called Kuk Sool Won, and among other things, one of the things that they teach are pressure points, and how to use there opponents strength against them. I think there are alot of ways that martial arts can teach people with and without dissabilities to use different parts of the body to there advantage. Do any of you have any examples of this in your particular martial art?

[Mei Hua]

Do any of you have any examples of this in your particular martial art?
Aye we do.

There are ways you can redirect a opponent's energy against them, ie. they throw a punch and you do a deflective block pushing their arm across their chest, it takes little strength/energy to do this as you're using their energy against them and in so doing have restricted their movement and ability to strike back.

That's just but one example, but we teach many different aspects of things like this, simple movements which work to control another person.

[Joshua Powell]

What martial art do you do?

[Mei Hua]

Northern Shaolin Honan Mei Hua Chuan is the one I teach where we do as I described.

I also do MMA and CQC Combatives(MCMAP)

[Joshua Powell]

Sounds like something I might like to get into.

[Mei Hua]

I can't speak highly enough about it :D

[Joshua Powell]

I think that's cool:) It's the same with me. Martial arts has helped me in more ways then one in my life.

[Light123]

Hey, speaking of "wrestling to the ground", I've wrestled two friends at once before. I executed a pretty good move with speed and little effort. (Man, was I laughing :D )

[BentMonk]

I don't want to steal any one's thunder, but size and strength mean a great deal in a physical confrontation. Yes there are ways to redirect an opponents force against them, and there are valid pressure point targets. However, it takes a good deal of mobility on the defender's part for redirection to work well. As to pressure points, your targeting has to be very precise and you have to be able to hit with a fair amount of force for them to be effective. A larger and stronger opponent will always have the advantage over a smaller weaker opponent. IMO there is no substitute for strength and conditioning training combined with as close to full contact sparring as you can handle. This is the only way that you will know for sure if redirecting techniques or pressure point striking will work for you. Of course as my 14 year old son just pointed out, the most effective means of self defense is :woo:

[Mei Hua]

Then what do you suggest to disabled martial artists who may not have what you say matters, though in all honesty I disagree, cause I've seen much different.

[PASmith]

Not wishing to sound harsh but I'd hazard that most disabled people would probably get beaten up in a fight with an able bodied person.
It's hard enough for an able bodied person to win a fight against a commmitted and aggressive attacker let alone someone already at a physical disadvantage.
Sorry if that offends anyone.
Also note that doesn't mean I think disabled people shouldn't train in the arts. More power to them I say. You should still remain realistic about what you're able to achieve though.

[Light123]

Dudes, if you're judging by the body, you've got the wrong eyeballs. A disabled person can just as m uch beat up an able bodied person. Strength isn't on the skin, it's under it.

And I agree with Mei Hua. You can give your attacker a good poke in the eyes and beat them down while they're blind. Stuff like that.

But if the attacker has a weapon...well, you tell me.

[BentMonk]

If size and strength do not matter, why do combat sports separate competitors by weight class?

I have been on the losing end of a real fight. My opponents oddly enough were bigger and stronger than me.

I have used my own strength to avoid being arm barred, and land heavy punches in competition.

Strength can be gained by working out hard. Techniques can be honed to a reflex by drilling them constantly.

Heart will serve you well, but it will not overcome the laws of nature and physics. A disabled martial artist must find techniques that they can execute well, condition their body until they are strong enough to apply them against a fully resisting opponent, and drill those techniques until they are reflexive.

The old, small MA masters you see defeating larger opponents are much stronger than they appear, and are able to utilize their entire body when executing a technique.

My legs do little more than hold me semi-upright, and hobble me from point A to point B. I know this, and train accordingly to compensate.

I have asked this question on this board before, and it has always met with little or no response. How many of you train against a truly resisting opponent? How many of you spar with even moderate contact? If you don't train with resistance and spar...why not?

I advise my students to travel with a friend when possible, stay out of rough places, and don't start any crap with anybody. This simple bit of common sense will keep most of us out of harms way. If it doesn't then they have one or two techniques that work well for them, and they drill them with me a lot. I don't let them do anything. If they can't do it with me resisting them, then they can't do it yet, and we drill more. IMO to tell someone that technique x will work against any opponent every time is very dangerous. There is no technique that will work 100% of the time against every opponent. This is true regardless of ability or disability.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from training MA. It has too many benefits to list. What I am saying is that we all must have a realistic view of our ability. A false sense of confidence will get you hurt or worse. Peace. :)

[Light123]

Yeah...We all got pockets

[Mei Hua]

Huh, I teach a guy with MS bound to a wheel chair, has little use of limbs.

He was in a bar a while back and some guys thought to rob him as he was disabled, he broke one's knee and fought the other off till help came.


This BS that people say strength/size matters shows they know nothing of which they speak and have no experience, grow up and join the real world

[kmguy8]

Mei Hua,

do you always have to be such an obnoxius jerk? your opinion is only one of amny and others are entitled disagree (in the current topic and political ones I've read recently of yours).

if you want others to listen to you.. other than this site being for you to enjoy reading your own text... you might try changing your manner of expression....

take it for what it's worth

anyone that believes that size and strength are not an asset in a fight is an idiot... as is anyone that thinks they are all that matter....

there is room for people to weight the middle ground as they see fit.....


relax.. and learn reason

[Mei Hua]

Take it any way you want, but people that say size and strength do matter and if you're disabled you wont be able to do anything are fools, it honestly shows they know not of what they speak.

Sorry you view that as being a jerk, I dont putty foot with BS like others do, I say what's on my mind, especially when dealing with people who do not know of what they're talking about.


Deal with it.



In fact, I guess technique and skill are nothing huh?

Jeez, what a surprise, I guess all them folk that had such fighting bigger/stronger people and won were actually a fantasy? AMAZING!!!!!

In fact, those political discussions you speak of come from people who have neither been to the areas they talk about, have had nothing to do with the people whm they talk about, know nothing of the reality of those people's ideas/decisions/feelings and yet make claims they do, in fact they know nothing! So yes, sorry you view that as being a jerk(I guess this post will triple that in your eyes but TS) if you do not actually know something, do not make boisterous claims, do not come into a disabled forum and say you all can't do anything and you'll lose everytime, such idiocy is incredible.

Size/strength are all good, more so in MMA where they play a bigger factor, in real life it's skill/heart that determine who will win and come out on top, size/strength play less a part in reality than people claim, they just haven't dealt with real life yet.

[PASmith]

Why do size and strength play more of a role in MMA than in other sorts of fighting? That's an odd comment.
If anything the advent of MMA has shown us that with sufficient skill and awareness of options a good small guy can beat a bigger guy (Royce fighting anyone, Genki Sudo fighting Butterbean for example).
With the advent of weight limits it's even less of a factor as everyone is about the same size.

I'm not saying that smaller people or disabled people can't train or defend themselves successfully. Such a statement could easily be disproved.
I'm just saying they need to be realistic about what they can achieve.

Fighting is never as definate as "skill/size/heart/insert thing here is what matters". It's a mix of all things.

[Mei Hua]

Why do size and strength play more of a role in MMA than in other sorts of fighting? That's an odd comment.
If anything the advent of MMA has shown us that with sufficient skill and awareness of options a good small guy can beat a bigger guy (Royce fighting anyone, Genki Sudo fighting Butterbean for example).
With the advent of weight limits it's even less of a factor as everyone is about the same size.

I'm not saying that smaller people or disabled people can't train or defend themselves successfully. Such a statement could easily be disproved.
I'm just saying they need to be realistic about what they can achieve.

Fighting is never as definate as "skill/size/heart/insert thing here is what matters". It's a mix of all things.
Ok, perhaps I misunderstood you previously.

Please accept my apology.

[BentMonk]

MH - Do you train with resistance and spar with some contact? What technique did your student in the chair use to break the guys knee? Did you see this or hear about it? What strength and conditioning methods does he train? Was the technique used something he drilled on a regular basis? He must be able to use his limbs fairly well to come out on the winning end of a two on one situation. We train this scenario quite often, and it is difficult for even an able bodied person to avoid being bested by two opponents. I am also curious as to what other extraordinary examples of skill and technique so dramatically overcoming not only size and strength, but superior numbers as well that you have seen, or perhaps experienced first hand.

[Mei Hua]

MH - Do you train with resistance and spar with some contact? What technique did your student in the chair use to break the guys knee? Did you see this or hear about it? What strength and conditioning methods does he train? Was the technique used something he drilled on a regular basis? He must be able to use his limbs fairly well to come out on the winning end of a two on one situation. We train this scenario quite often, and it is difficult for even an able bodied person to avoid being bested by two opponents. I am also curious as to what other extraordinary examples of skill and technique so dramatically overcoming not only size and strength, but superior numbers as well that you have seen, or perhaps experienced first hand.

Yes, every partner drill is done light to mid/full contact depending on student/skill level.

He hooked one foot behind the attacker's leg and with his other kicked straight into it, locking and breaking it.
This was confirmed by two of his friends that were there and by the trial that was followed by the event.
He only has good use of his legs and that in only certain ways, his arms are not very usable.


If you learn how to redirect a person's attack so you offset and unbalance them, you can take control of them through locks/body positioning, they then can be used as a shield or weapon against further attackers.

When it comes to fighting multiples, only luck(or a gun if you get it out first) is the winner, that's a bad situation in any scenario.

As for what I've seen or experienced in said situations, read some of my other posts concerning such.

[Light123]

Yes, every partner drill is done light to mid/full contact depending on student/skill level.

He hooked one foot behind the attacker's leg and with his other kicked straight into it, locking and breaking it.
This was confirmed by two of his friends that were there and by the trial that was followed by the event.
He only has good use of his legs and that in only certain ways, his arms are not very usable.


If you learn how to redirect a person's attack so you offset and unbalance them, you can take control of them through locks/body positioning, they then can be used as a shield or weapon against further attackers.

When it comes to fighting multiples, only luck(or a gun if you get it out first) is the winner, that's a bad situation in any scenario.

As for what I've seen or experienced in said situations, read some of my other posts concerning such.

Mei Hua has a point. My brother who is a genius researches all kinds of things, especially martial arts. His research shows that it only takes 8 pounds to break a knee when hit at the side.

Think about this analogy, a single bee can sting a person to death. Can you take anything out of that?

Sure a human can kill a bee in a single swat, but if the bee is "quick and smart" it probably wont even get hit.

it has happened to me before. 5 kids all stung up by one nasty bee.

[BentMonk]

The original topic was "Size(or strength) matters not". I'm glad to hear that your student was adequately prepared to defend himself with the weapons that were available to him. I am also glad he had a bit of luck with him. Being skilled at redirection is a primary goal of most MAs. Possessing this skill does not negate a size or strength advantage. It simply gives you one more tool in the box to work with. What concerns me about the prevailing attitude on this thread is that we have people who are teaching others how to defend themselves saying such outlandish things as "size and strength don't matter if...". That is not only wrong, it's going to get one of your students hurt. There is no technique that will be 100% effective 100% of the time. To profess that you teach techniques that are 100% effective against any attacker is ludicrous. I hope that reality doesn't knock on your door with a lawsuit, injury, or some one's death some time soon. Yes some bees can sting many times, but it takes many, many stings to bring down the larger foe, and only one blow from the larger foe to kill the bee. This brings us back to...size and strength matter a great deal. I now return you to your regularly scheduled fantasy MA movie already in progress.

[Mei Hua]

I never said they didn't matter completely, only not as much as people say.

I can honestly say I've taken down guys that are taller and outweigh me by anywhere from 50 to 100 lbs, skill, technique, learning how to use your entire body effectively often turn the tide.
That in tune with will, determination and desire to win the fight also play a large factor.

There are many instances where size/strength do not decide the victor, but skill/technique do, when skill is balanced equally then size/strength matter more or vice versa.

[Light123]

Hey, listen...everything is a reality. If you say it's fantasy, you're also saying instructors are lying to disabled people, possibly to make them feel good/accepted. So, either way, they're probably hurt.

Besides, it all depends on the kind of strength. if it's body size, that is no indication of strength. People may not be as strong as they look. But if it's muscular strength, you know we all have muscles and they can be built up.

The 3 ninjas against Slater's fat bodyguard. how did they take him down? They hit his pressure points

[BentMonk]

MH & TT - Your last two posts find us seeing eye to eye. Redirection skill is a natural result of good MA training. Pressure point striking is a highly specialized type of training that is effective after years of training and practice. It's all about keeping the proper perspective. Anyone who practices MA disabled or not, should know that there are no guaranteed techniques. No technique will be effective without the proper physical and mental conditioning to make it reflexive.

[koyo]

I think it is down to a misinterpretation of Jigor Kano's minmum use of strength for maximum efficiency. Some try to say that techniques can be applied with no strength at all. As an aikidoka I still shudder at the nonsense that someone can be thrown with NO contact. It is the use of unnecesary strength that should be avoided.Use the amount of strength necessary to apply an effective technique. In this manner the most skilled and determined should prevail.


regards koyo

[BentMonk]

Well said Koyo.

[Joshua Powell]

First thing, i'm sorry that this forum has created so much controversy, that was not my intention. Also, sombody said earlier that we as disabled people have to be realistic about what we want to achieve. If I were realistic as the world says I would not have been a martial artist for so many years, and achieved my black belt. I have to push myself, and sometimes that means that I have to be sometimes unrealistic about my achievments, and push myself more and more.

[Melanie]

This no time to apologise - Joshua! This is a form of debate that quite frankly I enjoy watching :)

Very good arguments both sides folks...even the name calling is being ignored 'cos at least you guys have kept it within sensible realms and have made very intelligent posts. We (Mods) normally only come down on you when your doing something wrong, but this is something special. Excellent work guys...keep it up...

[Light123]

Argument is only necessary for this kinds thing.

[BentMonk]

First thing, i'm sorry that this forum has created so much controversy, that was not my intention. Also, sombody said earlier that we as disabled people have to be realistic about what we want to achieve. If I were realistic as the world says I would not have been a martial artist for so many years, and achieved my black belt. I have to push myself, and sometimes that means that I have to be sometimes unrealistic about my achievments, and push myself more and more.

As practicing martial artists, everyone in this discussion has pushed themselves past someone else's perception of what they can do. However, I feel that it is dangerous for any practitioner of a combat art to be over confident. As I said, there are no automatic techniques that will be effective 100% of the time. I am confident that I am strong in my upper body, punch like a freight train, and can take more punishment than the average bear, BooBoo. :) But I also know that in a real confrontation I am still at a greater disadvantage than the average guy because of my CP. In a real fight I'm going to get one, maybe two hits in before I'm knocked down. This reality is why I work very hard to make every punch I throw capable of knocking someone out. It's not the technique that wins a fight. It is how well the technique is applied. Anyone with a disability who trains MA should be sure that whatever techniques they learn are designed to be effective for them. MA study is a great thing, but it doesn't make anyone invincible...except for Chuck Norris. :D

[Light123]

The risk of "danger" leads to "discovery". Which means you have to experience a "real" fight before you can say "don't", "can't" or "won't".

Am I right, my dear friend Mei Hua? :D BentMonk? People? :D

[Mei Hua]

I would agree.

[Light123]

"would"? :confused:

[Mei Hua]

Same thing as I do agree ;)

[Light123]

I thought you doubted somewhere. :D Ooh, I'm relieved! :D

[Mei Hua]

Nope, perhaps that's just the way that is used round these parts, but I did agree :)

[BentMonk]

The risk of "danger" leads to "discovery". Which means you have to experience a "real" fight before you can say "don't", "can't" or "won't".

Am I right, my dear friend Mei Hua? :D BentMonk? People? :D

This is why I get so frustrated when people say that they do not spar, or at least train with genuine resistance. I have been in a real fight, and lost. This was well before I trained in MA, but the experience influenced how I approached my training. Most think I have lost the remainder of my mind, but I am currently working on demonstrating that disabled martial artists can handle themselves in the ring. The current barriers to this exist because of safety concerns. I say that we have just as much right to risk getting our butts kicked as anyone else. :D

[koyo]

I had a GIANT at the club recently and attempting to throw him with techniques that would apply to others was just not on. He was too big,too heavy and most certainly did not want to fall.So my techniques were , for lack of a better word, disabled.!!!
The ONLY way to throw or pin him was to "isolate a limb" while he was moving and sweep his foot or lock his wrist or elbow.
Basic principle find a weekpoint and "work with what is available"!!!!



koyo

[Light123]

He was a giant that didn't want to fall. So knock him down (BOOM!) and have a picnic on his head.

[koyo]

He was a giant that didn't want to fall. So knock him down (BOOM!) and have a picnic on his head.

I would have but I did not have my baseball bat with me.


regards koyo :)

[Light123]

Why do you need a baseball bat? Shoes are enough for kicking soccer balls, His head mustve been that big.

:laugh: Man, am I goofy...

[Joshua Powell]

I think it might be true that we who are disabled may not last long in a real fight...but at the same time I think we should still fight. I personaly would not fight in a ring with another just for sport, I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do, but I just wouldn't. However I would spar with people without hurting them...but that would be training for a real fight would it not? Even if you'r in a sports MA it doesn't mean that you can't use it to defend yourself. One of the classes that I go to are for people with mental, physical or developmental dissabilities who have been jumped upon and fought down. I think with what they have experience first hand, I think that they wouldn't have any problems trying to defend themselves, or others. Now among kicks and punches they also teach different scenarios like trying to get out of the way, or avoiding confrontations. So sometimes it is the right time to fight, or the right time to walk away, but both times unfortunately do come up and it is not alwayse the time to walk away. One of the rules that was in my first martial art, and I will remember it alwayse is "We only fight to protect our lives and the lives of others." And if it comes down to it I will fight no matter knowing if I will get hurt because if I don't fight (like I said before) that would be giving up and that's something we can't do. But as a side note also I will not start a fight, but if it is absolutely necessary to end one then I will do my best to try.

[Light123]

How can you say we won't last long in a fight, Joshua? That is how they put it in the movies, but the movies were made by people who have little or no experience with disabled martial artists. They put in the movies whatever they want us to think. Crap on 'em! :D

We can last as long as we can endure. Endurance is a part of not giving up. So it's good that you won't give up. But we all know that not even Mr. Big Guy can last forever. Pain is part of a fight, and pain is usually the cause of our giving up. Nothing is supposed to be easy.

Oh, I just remembered. I was knocked out by a frisbee that came flying and hit my chin when I was a kid. ;D Strength? No, it was a frisbee.

And from what BentMonk says, there aren't any techniques that will always work. But I say knocking out works. And if your instructors seem to be babying you, you can learn what they teach you and when it comes time you can easily "upgrade" what you learned and prove to be a dangerous fighter. Take Mei Hua's MS student for example. If Mei was somewhat easy on his MS student for caution, then his student had "upgraded" what he learned when he was attacked at the bar.

Be a lion, never give up!

[Joshua Powell]

I agree with you as well. But what I am saying is who knows how long we can endure the attacks? It may be longer or shorter times depending upon the situation. As you were talking about upgrading, I think that's a good idea, but not until that student were ready to actually upgrade his/hers techniques. You wouldn't want to give a black belt to a beginner would you? Ofcourse not. It's the same for people with dissabilities. If we are ready for more techniques, or anything like that then I think we should be taught those things, but not until were ready. The problem with that is that we will have so many different things in our mind, but if those things have not been learned to the point where we can do them on our own, then the upgrading would be to quickly. So like I said I agree entirely with upgrading systems. But just at the point where they are ready to be upgraded;)

[Light123]

That's why you spar. Sparring is a "practical real fight", as I put it. You can upgrade them during a spar. And if they sparyou like a baby, you have the chance to prove yourself worthy of being sparred properly. And it is good to hide your endurance until the time. Expectations are part of how people fight you, aren't they? So, the more un-expected you are, the more you have them off-guard.

[Knight_Errant]

Actually, sparring like a baby can be good for you. When I was doing MMA, my tutor would get me to do very slow sparring with an emphasis on perfect technique. It helped.

[BentMonk]

There are many ways to spar. All have something to teach you. We spar at various speeds, and focus on various aspects of sparring, ie: footwork, flow, etc. Regardless of the contact or intensity level, every martial artist should spar IMO. Without it, you have an aerobics class, not a martial arts class.

[inosanto1]

You are not training with the correct people then, i tend to train with people that are alot heavier than myself by choice so that i learn how to deal with them, its the only way of drilling it to your body. training with people the same weight all the time builds the illusion . by the way, i have scoliosis and although i am not wheelchair bound i do have issues, but again i train round them, i also know a guy in my locals area that is chair bound and have been told by a number of people that the guy is well hard!!! :confused:

[Light123]

Scolosis? I had my back straightened with rods because of it.

And yeah, I could try that.

[AllieB]

i dont think its size or strength i think it is speed a larger person may not be as fast as a smaller person the smaller person may win the fight because of it

[BentMonk]

i dont think its size or strength i think it is speed a larger person may not be as fast as a smaller person the smaller person may win the fight because of it

I agree to a point. Landing the first shot, or the first two or three if you're that fast, will possibly win a fight. If you miss or have an opponent who can take punishment, you're in trouble. Plan on getting hit, kicked, grappled, and train accordingly.

[Epicurus]

Size and strength do matter. All things equal, the stronger and/or larger fighter has an advantage, and it can be a big one.

Every martial art has techniques intended to use redirection and finesse to overcome brute force; part of what makes something a martial art is the emphasis of use of technique rather than outright reliance on power to win.

That said, don't think that size and strength don't matter in a fight. You can overcome a larger and stronger opponent if you're better trained (enough) or lucky enough, but if someone has a significant weight advantage, it will be near-impossible to win in many cases (obese opponents don't count ; ).

I don't want to lecture, but please don't buy into the idea that size and strength "don't matter" in fighting. It is more accurate to say that they can be overcome in many cases. A martial artist should try to be as strong as they can by conditioning themselves to fight.

P.S: I love when people conclude that larger=slower.

Size does have some disadvantages; it IS a little harder to match the speed of a "smaller" person, and even a large person in good shape may tire more quickly. Those disadvantages are extremely minor compared to the advantages of much greater power and toughness which a larger, stronger body typically provides.

[Light123]

Strength is like a machine. machines were built to make things easier to do. So strength is for making a fight shorter and easier to win. So strength iis like a weapon.

[PASmith]

Large people are not slow, that's a myth put about by small people to make them feel better.
Look at Olympic sprinters. Linford Christie for example. NOT a small guy by any means. Big, muscular and hellishly fast.
Yamashita the legendary heavy weight Judo champion could run 100 metres in about 11 seconds. Big, strong and very explosive.
Muscles and size do not equate to being slow.
The difference in speed between most people (of all sizes) is slight and certainly not enough to base a winning fight strategy on.
Of course the difference between a fast person and a slow person would be marked. However most people don't fall to those extremes and it certainly isn't dependent on their size in relation to you (which is how you really judge a size advantage).