In Sun Seo

[SUNGJADO]

Of course, I have my own opinion of Gm Seo, but I would like to know if anyone else has been on the mat with him.

[Thomas]

In December of 2004, I had the great pleasure to attend a two day seminar with him and to learn from him. I was also fortunate enough to get "tossed around" a bit by him too. (See my journal entry #48 for a review of the seminar).

Even though he used very little English he was able to teach English-speaking (and French-speaking) students very well, with a bit of humor and fun as well as good hard work. On the floor, I found him smooth, very controlled and very precise... and able to generate power very easily and without effort. He supervised the class well and even with a large group managed to have personal contact with just about everyone.

In person after class and at the restaurant he was a very classy person, warm and open and very humble. His people (Sara Seo, Steve Seo and others) are also all very warm and open and willing to help out. Help on the floor (from Steve Seo) was excellent (he's a talented instructor as well) and help from the main office (Sara Seo) is always immediate and efficient.

Beyond his skills on the mat, I think GM In Sun Seo is really trying to "better" the world of Hapkido. I know he's trying to get some of the other "movers and shakers" together in Korea and his more "open" style of accepting various kwans seems a bit better designed in my book of bring together the Korean and Hapkido arts under one loose umbrella instead of many tight umbrellas.

Overall, I have a lot of respect for the man on and off the mat.

[coc716]

I'm just curious when his book is going to be released. It was to be last summer, then before the end of 2006, and still no sign of it. :(

Thomas, do you have any info?

[SUNGJADO]

I received word from the Seo's that the book is delayed for the simple reason that GM Seo is waiting on individual WKF/HMJ people to get their pictures in for inclusion. They did apologize for the delay. If I hear anymore, I will post it.

[Thomas]

I'm just curious when his book is going to be released. It was to be last summer, then before the end of 2006, and still no sign of it. :(

Thomas, do you have any info?
Same thing as above... waiting for member pics.

[coc716]

Argh! :) Well, at least it's still in the wings. Hopefully they've put a deadline/cutoff on the pics so the book doesn't get held up because one dude forgot to send in his picture.

Eagerly awaiting....

[Thomas]

At his website, GM In Sun Seo has posted up two very good interviews on his background - well worth reading:

Part 1: Unifying Hapkido will grow it to an International Martial Art

Q. In this cold weather, how are you doing?
A. I’m still very confident about my health. Every year, I travel the world to visit member schools and I conduct 7 hours a day seminars and I personally demonstrate the techniques.

Even now, because I stretch and train 2 hours a day, I’m healthy. When I’m abroad, the foreigners are first surprised at my age and then they surprised a second time when I perform the techniques.

Q. No one will object to the statement that you are a founding father of Hapkido. When did you start?
A. I first met my teacher (Grandmaster) Choi Young Sul in 1957 and received my 1st dan in 1958. Since 1945, GM Choi Young Sul spread Hapkido but when he met Mr. Suh Bok Sup in 1953 in Daegu, he opend a dojang in the second floor of Mr. Suh’s Brewery. That was the beginning of Hapkido Dojangs in Korea. After that, the second dojang was opened and that’s where I practiced.

Q. When did you first open your school?
A. In 1961. I opened the Korea Kuk Sool Won Hapkido Dojang. During that era, Grandmaster Ji Han Jae first opened Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido in Andong prior to my school and in 1959, he opened Sung Moo Kwan Dojang in Seoul. Master Kim Moo Hong, an instructor under GM Ji, went independent in 1961 and opened a Sin Moo Kwan Hapkido Dojang. That was the start of the three branches of Hapkido that live today.

Q. Hapkido from the start had phases of division?
A. Yes, but shortly afterwards, there as an effort for unification. With GM Choi Young Sul at the center, we all agreed that “it shouldn’t be this way” formed Dae Han Kido Hae. At the time, we received permission from the Ministry of Education and GM Choi Yong Sul was elected the first chairman and Mr. Kim Kyung Dong was elected president. However, this still did not achieve unification. I think the main reason that we didn’t reach unification was due to the stubbornness of the 1st generation martial artists in Korea at that time. If all of us took a step back and worked together, it would have been possible. Instead, many of the individuals involved were young and hot blooded. In retrospect, it was very regrettable and a big opportunity we missed.

Q. There was another brief period when it appeared unification was possible. It seemed significant when Mr. Kim Woo Joong (Found of Dae Woo) appeared on the scene?
A. At the time in Seoul, Sung Moo Hapkido called itself “Dae Han Hapkido” and Sin Moo Hapkido called itself “Han Kuk Hapkido.” They united and called it “Dae Han Min Kuk Hapkido” with Mr. Kim taking part in this unification. However, at that time they couldn’t embrace Dae Han Kidohae and failed to achieve complete unification. At that time, Kim Woo Joong declared that he was going to make the combined Hapkido Organization bigger than Kukkiwon. Of course that didn’t happen.

Q. You were president of Dae Han Kidohae for a very long time. You must have a lot of memories?
A. I became president of Dae Han Kidohae in 1983. In the beginning of my tenure, one of my goals was to introduce the idea that the term “Dae Han Kuk Sool Won” would be a more appropriate term than “Hapkido” to represent the breadth of Martial Arts practiced under the Kidohae. We use the term Hapkido and Japan uses the same term (Aikido and Hapkido have the same Chinese character root) and I thought that it would be a better name for our martial arts and tried to make the change. However the government would not give permission to us for two reasons. First, the Hapkido name and branding around the name in the Korean consciousness was very strong. Second, the meaning of the words Kuk Sool Won (national Korean martial arts association) was deemed to be too generic. Therefore, I decided to support the name Hapkido instead. After that, I continued to meet with Dae Han Hapkido’s president Oh Sae Lim and Kuk Jae Hapkido’s president Myong Jae Nam to discuss unification. In the 80’s, over 80% of all Hapkido schools in Korea belonged to our three organizations. Even with these frequent meetings however, we were not able to unify Hapkido throughout my tenure as president of the Kidohae.

Q. If the 1st generation could not achiever unification, do you think it is possible now?
A. I believe it is possible. There are many Hapkido Organizations but in reality, only a few of them have significance in terms of number of schools and influence. I intend to form a kind of network/alliance with the 1st generation heads of different Hapkido organizations and styles so we can socialize and interact. Doing this will naturally help lead towards unification. Also, with the registration of Hapkido with the Korea Sports Association, we should see more of a spotlight on Hapkido in Korea and see more changes.

Q. From your long history in the Martial Arts, share some memorable episodes?
A. When I was young and just opened a dojang in Busan, there was a famous hoodlum in my area renown for his fighting ability. He was going around announcing that he could beat me in a fight. So I was training and waiting for the right opportunity to face him. Then one early morning, I saw him face to face and we met to fight. I executed a decisive technique on him and defeated him easily. Since I took control of him so easily and effectively, he said to me “I will treat you as my elder brother for life!” There were many such incidents such as this and many of the students that ended up joining my school had originally approached me in that fashion. There were a lot of difficulties and dangers involved for Hapkido in its infancy but it is great to see how far it has come.

Q. I’m curious about the current situation of the Hanminjok Hapkdio Association?
A. At this time, we have about 350 schools in Korea and many more outside of Korea. Because of the support of many Masters in our organization, both in Korea and Overseas, in the last 3 years we have grown at an incredibly rapid pace. Going forward, I’m going to work harder to continue to give back positively to Hapkido. Keep your eyes open as Hanmijok Hapkido Association becomes the best Hapkido organization!

Q. Any plans for your organization soon?
A. This coming April 15-16, we will be hosting an International Hapkido Compeition with over 20 nations participating. Not just with talk but with action, we are striving to be a positive example for other organizations through the various events and programs we are a part of.

Q. Can Hapkido achieve the international success that Tae Kwon Do has?
A. Of course! Many people say that Hapkido self defense techniques are superior to and more complete than modern “sport oriented” Tae Kwon Do. This is very apparent by how many martial artists of other styles seek to learn Hapkido and earn Hapkido Dans. The reason why such a great art like Hapkido doesn’t grow more is because it is not united. It is important to achieve unification soon, preserve the techniques, and improve on them and announce to the world “this is Hapkido.” If that is done, we can grow as big as Tae Kwon Do. I would also like to take this opportunity to once again express that it is very important that Hapkido unfies soon and that all Hapkido practitioners should take this to heart.

Q. The new year, 2006, is here. Anything you want to say to the Martial Artists out there?
A. Martial Artists should always be ready to serve others and should always keep in mind that we need to be good examples to others. We need to know that it is more important to have etiquette and respect than trying to learn one more technique. It is especially important to respect your seniors and love you juniors. I hope that you all have plenty of these positive thoughts and strive to apply them to your everyday lives. I wish all of you good fortune and good health in the new year!

http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html

Part 2: "I chose Hapkido for my life instead of a secure job."

Making the decision for a profession

When I graduated from Dae Gu Commerce High Scool in 1960, I was torn between pursuing martial arts and starting a career. The high school I graduated from was the best business high school in Korea at that time.

During this time, Korea was a very poor country with the GDP per capital being less than $100. Because of my education, getting a good job for me was not a problem but I struggled with my life’s direction. After much thought, I decided to direct my life to martial arts, i.e. Hapkido. In order to become the best in my chosen path, I trained more than 10 hours a day, everyday to perfect my Hapkido skill and knowledge.

In December of 1964, few months before I was to be honorably discharged from the Korean Army, I was chosen to go to Vietnam.(with the first Korean deployment) I served in Vietnam and I returned to Korea in 1965 and completed my duty, had many job offers. I passed the entrance exam for a commerce bank, received approval for governmental jobs, and was recommended for the Korean Intelligence Agency. However I pledge to dedicate my life to Hapkido and help grow it as the best Korean Martial Art. In 1965, I was appointed a Master of Kuk Sool Won-Hapkido.

The training methods of 1960’s Kuk Sool Won-Hapkido

My daily training schedule was to practice striking, kicking and self defense techniques for 6 hours, forms for 4 hours. For self defense techniques training I practiced with the students and used that time to hone my skills in realistic fighting situations. Because of this, all of our students were excellent in sparring and self defense techniques and this in turn help them realize the full strength of Hapkido.

My favorite kick is the spin kick and as recent as last February, I demonstrated this kick at my seminar in the United States. Back in the 60’s, I used to practice 3000 spin kicks a day in order to perfect the kick to be used in actual fighting situations. Thinking back now, it was indeed a very difficult training schedule. However I wanted to make sure my kicks were applicable in real life situations and only way to do that was to patiently practice. I think because of all those kicks I did back then, I am still able to execute the spin kick at my age now. At the time I was appointed a Master in 1965, I weighed 71 kg. But after I implemented my training schedule of 10 hours a day for three years, I dropped to 51 kg. At this weight my body was all muscle and I had lost nearly all my body fat . I believe this was due to the severity of my training in addition to not having enough nutritious foods available.

In the 60’s, most dojangs were very poor and hardly any of them had mats and other equipment. Most masters lived in their dojangs. Korea back then was so poor that when you opened a dojang, there were two dozen students who lived in the dojang to train. Many times it was difficult to deal with all the expenses of having so many students live with you but it also allowed you to teach excellent techniques and martial arts spirit to them and produce very capable instructors in a short period of time. This enabled for Kuk Sool Won- Hapkido in the 1960’s to spread to all of Korea very quickly.

I trained with and trained many key masters who were instrumental in spreading Hapkido throughout Korea. Some key individuals and the schools that they established are: 1963-Master Lee, Han Chul (Suh Dae Moon Dojang, Seoul), 1964-Master Kim, Woo Tak (Ul Ji Ryo Dojang, Seoul), 1964- Master Lee, Joo Bang (Jong Ryo 5 Ga Dojang, Seoul), 1963- Master Pak, In Suk, Master Cho, Chang Hyung (Kyong Ju Dojang), 1963- Master Seo, In Suk, Master Chung, Jin Sook (Yeo Soo Dojang), 1964- Master Seo, In Suk, Master Jang, Myong Ho, Master Kim, Sae Joon (Mok Poe Dojang), 1965- Master Lee, Jong Oh (Seo Myun, Busan Dojang), 1966- Master Seo, In Suk, Master Lim Hee Ee, Instructor Kim, Yong Bong, Instructor Lee, Yoon Woo (Kun San Dojang), 1966- Master Byun, Jong Won (Dan Shin Dong, Busan Dojang), 1966- Master Kim, Chang Soo (Kim Je Dojang), 1966- Master Oh, Soo Bok (Wool San Dojang), 1967- Master Cho, Jae Soo (Dong San Dong, Busan Dojang), 1967- Master Kang, Kang Jung, Master Cho, Ja Rong (Young Doong Pyo, Seoul Dojang), 1967- Master Kim Seong Jin (Sa Dang Dong, Seoul Dojang), 1968- Master Byun, Sae Ki, Master Pak, Jung Kyu (Ma San Dojang), 1968- Master Lim Kyu Uk (Mil Yang Dojang).

There were some others who were instrumental in proliferation of Hapkido during those early days that I may have inadvertently omitted and I ask for understanding in such cases.

At this point, I want to reiterate that those were difficult times and starting a Hapkido Dojang was extremely difficult endeavor. And this is a fact that I am hoping later generations of Hapkido Masters understand and respect.

http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter2.html

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Thomas, I respect you very much, but these interviews leave me more than puzzled.

The "history" in terms of quoted years is just plain incorrect - and I am perplexed as to how In Sun Seo claims anything in Hapkido except his last rank of 3rd Dan?

I am not at odds with his rather obvious skill in organization building - but how does he issue rank in Hapkido when his rank is 3rd Dan?

He clearly has rank in Kuk Sool Won through his brother Suh In Hyuk, and as they both did, for over 20 years, through constant and bombarding articles written by the talented late Jane Hallander, they tried deperately to prove the case that Kuk Sool Won was not Hapkido but is a seperate art.

After over 20 years of a clever media blitz, I will say I am convinced, Kuk Sool Won is not Hapkido - but since Seo and Suh have decided to part ways, how did Seo gain the rank of 10th Dan in Hapkido?

Moreover, how can his organization, with no apparent backing of other "Hapkido" Masters presume to issue 9th Dan rank at all? I can understand how an organization, say the WTF, with a figurehead leader (as it used to be) who has little TKD background can issue high rank, becasue the organization had high TKD ranks in its ranks to validate given rank - but how is this the case in Hanminjok or World Kido? Who are the ranked members that have high Hapkido rank not issued by Seo?

In addition, how is it that Seo issues rank in Hapkido (and high rank at that) to persons that have little Hapkido training but are trained in arts that are not Hapkido - like Kuk Sool Won? I mean, look at this forum, wqe have a Kuk Sool section - not a subset of Hapkido, but a seperate section altogether - so it must be seperate? Right? I would certainly never issue crossrank to any Kuk Sool Won members - it simply is not Hapkido - frankly, at all.

Again, Seo might be a great guy, great teacher of what he knows and great organizational head - but his ability to claim and issue rank in Hapkido - let alone qualify himself as a "Father of Hapkido" to me is not only questionable but somewhat insulting as he spent SO much time claiming he was not Hapkido at all...

[Thomas]

Hello all,

Thomas, I respect you very much, but these interviews leave me more than puzzled.
Hey thanks for the kind words, but all I did was copy and paste it here directly from GM In Sun Seo's website (see citation above). :D

To me, it's nice to hear personal accounts of what was going on in the formative years of Hapkido. There are a lot of myths/fabricated histories out there but I think GM In Sun Seo's approach of late is to express his memories without having cover things up for nationalism or whatever. I am excitied to read his book when it comes out.

Without getting too much into it, my opinion is that GM In Sun Seo learned Hapkido from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim (or his instructors) to at least 3rd dan, at which point he joined his brother in exploring Korean (and Chinese) native arts ("Kuk Sool") and helping weld them onto a Hapkido framework to create the Kuk Sool Won (And I beleive in its early years the style practiced was called Kuk Sool Hapkido (국술 합기도). ) He then spent years teaching and promoting the art as well as administering the World Kido Federation .

So, with so many years in studying, training and promoting Hapkido and/or Hapkido-based arts, I personally don't have a problem with him being a 10th dan in his own Association and with issuing rank to those he chooses. I don't see him doing anything too different than many of the other "founding fathers of Hapkido". Many of them began taking the art in its direction from a fairly early age and rank (GM HJi Han Jae for example). Granted, many of them arranged to cross-promote each other (or in some cases misrepresent ages and such when they came to the US to spread the art) but that doesn't bother me any more than GM In Sun Seo not listing a Hapkido rank trail past 3rd dan does...

I think the Hanminjok (Hap) Kido Association approach of allowing a wide diversity of Hapkido and Hapkido-based arts is a good thing, encouraging the preservation of the native arts and various traditions of Hapkido without having to fight pruity wars. Granted, an open door can attract flies but it also can attract good people too.


I know some people probably disagree with my opinions, but a good discussion is a good thing.
For more info on Gm In Sun Seo's background, check out
http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ for the Korean version (differs slightly in terminology) and the English bio http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html

There is a good discussion/thread where I drone on and on about my opinions and such concerning various little thing about GM In Sun Seo's background at http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=851 as well

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Thomas, again I know and appreciate that you are middle of the road, so to speak on issues, but I am still curious.

Firstly, I should say I do not now or have I ever bought into the "Hapkido Arts" definition of anything. It is either Hapkido, or not to me - now saying that, I don't care if someone uses a different name to describe what they do if it has been derived from Hapkido - Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, Hankido, are some notable examples.

In addition, using a moniker with the term Hapkido allows everyone to know that it is not the Hapkido of Choi Dojunim - but a derivation, like Sin Moo Hapkido, Hybrid Hapkido, etc.

I believe that all these examples clearly tell the public that they are not teaching the art of Choi Dojunim intact, but with modifications and changes. That seems fair to me.

Seo, In Sun spend the better part of 20 years with his brother trying to qualify Kuk Sool Won as a seperate and distinct entity from Hapkido - being as bold as to say in print many times that they were contempararies of Choi Dojunim. And if the history in the quoted texts you use above are part of his book, well, here is revisionist history again. According to Suh, Bok Sub, Choi Dojunim started training him in February, 1948 (1947 is some accounts) - that means that Hapkido was being taught for more that a decade before Seo even began.

Why is it that if someone does a throw that looks like Hapkido, this community accepts that as Hapkido? There is virtually no other community of Martial Artists that would allow this. The vast majority of styles are defined within specific parameters - but within Hapkido, ANYTHING IS ACCEPTED. Worse to me is the notion that to say that if the art is not directly from Choi Dojunim, it is therefore not Hapkido, creats a fervor of what you called "purity wars" - I do not understand this.

If the art is not diectly from Choi Dojunim, or has been significantly altered, as in the case of Kuk Sool Won, why is it wrong to say it is not Hapkido at all? That does not mean that whatever is being taught is "bad" or "impure" - it is simply NOT Hapkido.

Go to the vast majority of styles in the community - claim rank in an art, and see what happens if the rank is created somewhere other than the recognized founders and holders of the art - it would be in simple terms not recognized under that art.

Why is Hapkido any different? Because people do not want to admit that the person they are training under did not get high rank in the art before breaking off to do their own thing? I do not know. moreover, it really doesn't matter if they are happy and learning in their training - I just don't think they should call it Hapkido.

This case is magnified in the case of Seo, In Sun. Again, he may be a great teacher, organizer, promoter, whatever, the fact remains that his rank in Hapkido is that of third dan, the rest of his rank is in Kuk Sool Won - I simply do not see how he can call what he does Hapkido.

[Thomas]

Hello all,

Thomas, again I know and appreciate that you are middle of the road, so to speak on issues, but I am still curious.
First of all, I think you very eloquently bring up a lot of big issues and I like how you lay it open for discussion without "banging anyone on the head" with your views (which are strongly held).

Firstly, I should say I do not now or have I ever bought into the "Hapkido Arts" definition of anything. It is either Hapkido, or not to me - now saying that, I don't care if someone uses a different name to describe what they do if it has been derived from Hapkido - Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, Hankido, are some notable examples.

In addition, using a moniker with the term Hapkido allows everyone to know that it is not the Hapkido of Choi Dojunim - but a derivation, like Sin Moo Hapkido, Hybrid Hapkido, etc.

I believe that all these examples clearly tell the public that they are not teaching the art of Choi Dojunim intact, but with modifications and changes. That seems fair to me.
To be fair, I think that's why he uses "Hanminjok (Hap) Kido Association" and clearly implies that his organization is pretty open about what they allow in. Granted the definition isn't as "tight" as say "Sin Moo" but you get the idea that it is more open about its definition of what it takes in... basically any group with a Hapkido base or influence (or Korean art influence except TKD).



Seo, In Sun spend the better part of 20 years with his brother trying to qualify Kuk Sool Won as a seperate and distinct entity from Hapkido - being as bold as to say in print many times that they were contempararies of Choi Dojunim. And if the history in the quoted texts you use above are part of his book, well, here is revisionist history again. According to Suh, Bok Sub, Choi Dojunim started training him in February, 1948 (1947 is some accounts) - that means that Hapkido was being taught for more that a decade before Seo even began.
I really dislike revisionist history as well and the bulk of available HKD history out there is really biased/bad/inaccurate/etc. I don't know what will be in his new book but I hope it's a true account of his experiences and what he knows from the early days of HKD. I imagine there will be conflicting dates/issues that go along with 50 year old memories but at least it will provide a more accurate source to examine. In Sun Seo and In Hyuk Suh did indeed spread a lot false history, much of that shaped by the events and desires of the rapidly growing South Korea. Is it better to leave that history in place under your name or to release a more accurate version now? Either way, he's in a tough spot. I'd rather have the newer version.

Why is it that if someone does a throw that looks like Hapkido, this community accepts that as Hapkido? There is virtually no other community of Martial Artists that would allow this. The vast majority of styles are defined within specific parameters - but within Hapkido, ANYTHING IS ACCEPTED. Worse to me is the notion that to say that if the art is not directly from Choi Dojunim, it is therefore not Hapkido, creats a fervor of what you called "purity wars" - I do not understand this.

If the art is not diectly from Choi Dojunim, or has been significantly altered, as in the case of Kuk Sool Won, why is it wrong to say it is not Hapkido at all? That does not mean that whatever is being taught is "bad" or "impure" - it is simply NOT Hapkido.

Go to the vast majority of styles in the community - claim rank in an art, and see what happens if the rank is created somewhere other than the recognized founders and holders of the art - it would be in simple terms not recognized under that art.

Why is Hapkido any different? Because people do not want to admit that the person they are training under did not get high rank in the art before breaking off to do their own thing? I do not know. moreover, it really doesn't matter if they are happy and learning in their training - I just don't think they should call it Hapkido.

I think you make a good argument. Where I find it difficult is in the definition of "Hapkido". From what I know, Choi Yong Sool Dojunim learned Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu and that's what he taught. Furthermore, that system itself is not necessarily taught as an established curriculum and has been taught differently to different students depending on various reasons. In Choi Dojunim's case, he taught people differently according to what time period they studied under him.

As for "Hapkido" itself, what makes it different than the Yawara or Yoosool That Choi Dojunim taught? If you follow the idea that it comes from Ji Han Jae's mixture of various elements and creative naming, then "true" Hapkido is not Choi Dojunim's Yawara, but rather Ji Han Jae's blend. At the same time, you have the KHF and Myung Jae Nam's IHF taking "Hapkido" in new directions as well. Looking around at various groups, you have Grandmasters/founding fathers who spent a lot of time with Choi Yong-sool and who have drifted off in their own way.

In Ji Han Jae's case, he started under Choi Dojunim in 1948 (I think) but it wasn't until 1959 or so that he put together his own teachings and called it "Hapkido" (and I think he was a 3rd dan or so at the time). Looking at "Hapkido" as an authentic art "only" coming from Choi Dojunim after 1948 isn't completely accurate...because the term Hapkido wasn't used until after Ji Han Jae's blending. Perhaps the people who have learned the art of Choi Dojunim in its "original" form aren't doing "Hapkido" at all... perhaps they have learned "Yoosool" or "Yoo Kwon Sool" or "Yawara". Ji Han Jae's students then took his "Hapkido" and expanded it in many ways.

So,what is it that makes "Hapkido" into "Hapkido"? Is it a specific set of techniques, and with any lacking no longer the art? Or is it a set of principles which can be stretched and formed to fit various needs? I speculate that its Hapkido's own operating system that causes the real problem: Hapkido's basic principles make the art so flexible and adaptable that various people have done so.... and there really isn't a universally accepted definition as to what makes "Hapkido".

Anyway, I look forward to more discussion - it's nice to have a good argument without anyone flaming each other. :)

[Thomas]

http://www.washingtonhapkido.com/graphics/KoreaTrip/Grandmasters.jpg


I believe GM In Sun Seo is pictured here under the banner of "Hapkidoin" with some pretty august company.

Anyone able to name the whole front row?

www.washingtonhapkido.com (Korea gallery)

[Thomas]

A very kind person posted another GM In Sun Seo interview up on another site - well worth checking out for his discussion on the differences between Hapkido and KSW and on the purpose of the HMJ Association:
http://members.dodo.net.au/~jonnywalsh/pages/PDFs/GM%20Seo%20interview.pdf

[iron_ox]

First of all, I think you very eloquently bring up a lot of big issues and I like how you lay it open for discussion without "banging anyone on the head" with your views (which are strongly held).

:)


To be fair, I think that's why he uses "Hanminjok (Hap) Kido Association" and clearly implies that his organization is pretty open about what they allow in. Granted the definition isn't as "tight" as say "Sin Moo" but you get the idea that it is more open about its definition of what it takes in... basically any group with a Hapkido base or influence (or Korean art influence except TKD).

Again, I am happy to accept what they are doing is very open for a wide variety of interpretations of something - just not sure I think it is actually Hapkido.

I really dislike revisionist history as well and the bulk of available HKD history out there is really biased/bad/inaccurate/etc. I don't know what will be in his new book but I hope it's a true account of his experiences and what he knows from the early days of HKD. I imagine there will be conflicting dates/issues that go along with 50 year old memories but at least it will provide a more accurate source to examine. In Sun Seo and In Hyuk Suh did indeed spread a lot false history, much of that shaped by the events and desires of the rapidly growing South Korea. Is it better to leave that history in place under your name or to release a more accurate version now? Either way, he's in a tough spot. I'd rather have the newer version.

I agree that the best way to approach this type of history is to record one's own specific experiences. These are then more easily compiled for comparison.

I think you make a good argument. Where I find it difficult is in the definition of "Hapkido". From what I know, Choi Yong Sool Dojunim learned Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu and that's what he taught. Furthermore, that system itself is not necessarily taught as an established curriculum and has been taught differently to different students depending on various reasons. In Choi Dojunim's case, he taught people differently according to what time period they studied under him.

This may be the case, but he certainly ranked students right from the beginning. My issue is more one of not what they were taught, but what foundation did they really get in the art - eg what rank did they leave with. Many don't care, and that is fine, I can't argue belief, but paper is basically undeniable - sue it could be fake, but that is where the "rest of the story" generally fits in.

As for "Hapkido" itself, what makes it different than the Yawara or Yoosool That Choi Dojunim taught? If you follow the idea that it comes from Ji Han Jae's mixture of various elements and creative naming, then "true" Hapkido is not Choi Dojunim's Yawara, but rather Ji Han Jae's blend.

OK, I don't want a flame war here from the Ji adherants - please. But, I am very skeptical about his story that as a 19 year old he renamed the art and gave the name to Choi Dojunim. Ji never really produced this story until after the death of Choi Dojunim - so I really have to doubt it. In addition, there has been discussion from those that predate Ji with Choi Dojunim that the name Hapkido was being used BEFORE Ji claims he "created" the name. Hopefully I can gain more insight and evidence of this in Korea.

As for "content" Ji says he changed little of the hand techniques - just added kicks, spiritual stuff, and weapons - well that to me is a deviation from the original material, so I see it as appropriate that he now calls what he teachs Sin Moo Hapkido.

At the same time, you have the KHF and Myung Jae Nam's IHF taking "Hapkido" in new directions as well. Looking around at various groups, you have Grandmasters/founding fathers who spent a lot of time with Choi Yong-sool and who have drifted off in their own way.

I think the question is did they really spend that much time with Choi Dojunim? I think the answer will probably be no - most of these men were in Seoul, and saw Choi Dojunim as a seminar teacher - Ji was the primary instructor they had - as such it is not hard to see how they have drifted from Choi Dojunim's teachings.

In Ji Han Jae's case, he started under Choi Dojunim in 1948 (I think) but it wasn't until 1959 or so that he put together his own teachings and called it "Hapkido" (and I think he was a 3rd dan or so at the time). Looking at "Hapkido" as an authentic art "only" coming from Choi Dojunim after 1948 isn't completely accurate...because the term Hapkido wasn't used until after Ji Han Jae's blending.

Again, hopefully the veracity of Ji statements can be tested.




So,what is it that makes "Hapkido" into "Hapkido"? Is it a specific set of techniques, and with any lacking no longer the art? Or is it a set of principles which can be stretched and formed to fit various needs? I speculate that its Hapkido's own operating system that causes the real problem: Hapkido's basic principles make the art so flexible and adaptable that various people have done so.... and there really isn't a universally accepted definition as to what makes "Hapkido".

This is a very good question Thomas, and one I believe deserves its own thread - MY belief is that Hapkido is quite easily defined - the art of Choi Dojunim - whose students are ranked according to the system he saw fit - giving each their respective place. Choi Dojunim knew what he taught to whom - and even over time ranked them as he saw them learning his system - look at the length of time Master Rim, Jung Bae waited between 6th and 7th dan - but that was his highest awarded rank from Choi Dojunim.

I have yet to find a single situation that is not adequately covered by the material I have learned (or am learning) without the need to incorporate other arts into the system and "masking" it as Hapkido.

I hope not to offend anyone with my comments - but in almost 30 of training - the stuff I've seen passed off as Hapkido - well, its amazing.

[JimH]

I would have to agree that if we say that Choi is the Founder of Hapkido then what is taught as True hapkido should be in direct accord with His,Choi's,Teachings.

The art should be like Daito Ryu,which if one looks at Both Arts one sees the similarities.(or should see the similarities)

The Problem is those who followed Choi,for the most part,altered what he taught,be they Ji Han Jae,In Sun Seo,In Hyuk Suh,The Lee Brothers on and on.

Some took on Tae Kwon Do aspects,some took from Yudo,some added meditation,some added Aikido technique,but what is their core?
What is the root art?
Does it resemble Daito Ryu,Yawara,Hapkido?
or
Does it resemble something else?

One cannot say IT MUST be the Originators art/technique to be true,if we mandate that as the truth then TKD should be Shotokan,Yudo should be Judo,Hapkido should be Daito ryu,aikido should be Daito ryu,Judo should be Jujitsu ryu,Kendo should be Iaido,BJJ should be Judo,on and on.

Even within each general term of the various arts we have differences and within each school we see variations in forms,additions to and subtractions from the original teachings in any of the styles mentioned above.

We cannot speak of the rank or length of time one has put in,as When Takeda taught he did not issue rank,he issued certificates to teach the art,so when Choi taught and issued rank it was done more from the Judo aspect which had established rankings than from Daito Ryu Rankings.

How much time did any of the founders of the Various Hapkido styles actually put in?

In Sun Seo says that he NEVER stopped Learning,being Taught by seniors and teaching,where as others started schools at 8 months ,and left Choi as Black Belts or second degrees and never trained under any senior in the art again,yet they are Masters and Grand Masters,some thanks to their students promoting them,others thanks to being Handed rank to help expose certain arts ,like Kuk Sool, to the public.

Many acclaimed as Legends in Hapkido circles owe much to those who wanted more exposure for their art and gave them titles and many owe their status as Legends to people like In Hyuk Suh and his Kuk Sool Organization.

As for In Sun Seo's rankings:
I would imagine that when one is picked to head a group under the Kido Hae and when one is responsible for promoting Hapkido,which the Kido Hae was formed to do fore most,and one has all other Korean arts under its banner,except TKD,then one must assume or possess the mantle/Title and skills of a top Master or why have that person there?

Again I do see the point of contention that Kuk Sool is a variant of the Originators concept but so are Most other forms of Hapkido (few have stayed with Choi's True teachings)if we divide into different catagories and sub groupings who in the art benefits?,how do you sell the art of variations to the public? or do we just let it die out?

Hapkido as we learn it was altered by Choi to meet the needs of Suh,Bok Sub and His requirements for an art to be usable Against Judo,so things have been changed from the start.
So what is True Hapkido ??

Who should lead the way?

Unification is Out.

So we have what we have,as variants of Hapkido,but they are still core Pricipals related to the Original art,there will be more variants and changes in the future,we move on and we will read In Sun Seo's reflections and memories of the art from His View point.
(we must remeber that if all of us where in a room experiencing the same event all would come away with a different take on it and the series of events,this is History,one persons view through their eyes,probably seen differently by others in the art in those days through to today)

[Thomas]

Wow - The last two posts were excellent and give lots of food for thought.

Kevin, I think I understand exactly where you are coming from on this and I hope others read what you write and think about it. I do appreciate it and will spend some time thinking it over.

Jim - nice post as well, I think I'm in line with most of what you wrote there.

[iron_ox]

I would have to agree that if we say that Choi is the Founder of Hapkido then what is taught as True hapkido should be in direct accord with His,Choi's,Teachings.

:)

The art should be like Daito Ryu,which if one looks at Both Arts one sees the similarities.(or should see the similarities)

I am not sure I believe this. Takeda Sokaku had a huge inventory of technique in his head according to stories about him, and Daito-Ryu as we know it was only codified by his son and others - so who knows exactly what skills Choi Dojunim was taught - whatever they were, they were significant. To have students train for one or two years and leave to "Found" thier own styles after that long says something for the devastating nature of the material I think.

The Problem is those who followed Choi,for the most part,altered what he taught,be they Ji Han Jae,In Sun Seo,(In Hyuk Suh,The Lee Brothers - not direct students of Choi Dojunim) on and on.

I think that is OK as long as they identify this - Seo/Suh with Kuk Sool Won, Lee Joo Bang and Hwa rang do - great! - just not Hapkido.

Some took on Tae Kwon Do aspects,some took from Yudo,some added meditation,some added Aikido technique,but what is their core?
What is the root art?
Does it resemble Daito Ryu,Yawara,Hapkido?
or
Does it resemble something else?

The root can be found in the many men that teach what Choi Dojunim taught - there really is no need to compare it to other arts - it stands alone just fine.

One cannot say IT MUST be the Originators art/technique to be true,if we mandate that as the truth then TKD should be Shotokan,Yudo should be Judo,Hapkido should be Daito ryu,aikido should be Daito ryu,Judo should be Jujitsu ryu,Kendo should be Iaido,BJJ should be Judo,on and on.

Again, this is to assume that Choi Dojunim taught Daito-Ryu - HE taught what he was taught, but it is not the same as most of the mainline "codified" Daito-Ryu I have seen. Do we consider the option that the Daito-Ryu folks have modified/codified what they got from Takeda Sokaku?

We cannot speak of the rank or length of time one has put in,as When Takeda taught he did not issue rank,he issued certificates to teach the art,so when Choi taught and issued rank it was done more from the Judo aspect which had established rankings than from Daito Ryu Rankings.

But he did issue rank - so that rank has significance.

How much time did any of the founders of the Various Hapkido styles actually put in?

In Sun Seo says that he NEVER stopped Learning,being Taught by seniors and teaching,where as others started schools at 8 months ,and left Choi as Black Belts or second degrees and never trained under any senior in the art again,yet they are Masters and Grand Masters,some thanks to their students promoting them,others thanks to being Handed rank to help expose certain arts ,like Kuk Sool, to the public.

Again, I have no issue here - but Seo has high rank in another art - Kuk Sool Won - not Hapkido.


As for In Sun Seo's rankings:
I would imagine that when one is picked to head a group under the Kido Hae and when one is responsible for promoting Hapkido,which the Kido Hae was formed to do fore most,and one has all other Korean arts under its banner,except TKD,then one must assume or possess the mantle/Title and skills of a top Master or why have that person there?

There is a lot of history about the Kido Hae - or should I say the three Kido Hae organizations that existed -good organizers can be on top with low credentials - remember, Seo was at the forefront of Kido Hae as a Kuk Sool Won 9th or 10th Dan - not a Hapkido high Dan - and the organization claimed to cover lots of arts including Hapkido. He promoted during his entire tenure as head of Kido Hae that Kuk Sool Won was not Hapkido - so, if people respect him, take him at his word. Only after his "departure" from Kido Hae, and the need to rank individuals in uber rank in Hapkido did he become a "Hapkido" Grandmaster.

Again I do see the point of contention that Kuk Sool is a variant of the Originators concept but so are Most other forms of Hapkido (few have stayed with Choi's True teachings)if we divide into different catagories and sub groupings who in the art benefits?,how do you sell the art of variations to the public? or do we just let it die out?

Choi Dojunim only died in 1986 - not 1487 - his original students - many of them and many high ranks are still active and teaching - I just think that if someone is teaching a variant- or a seperate art, they proclaim it as such, like Kuk Sool Won, or Hwa Rang Do - but have no fear, the art of Choi Dojunim, Hapkido, is quite safe from dying out.

Hapkido as we learn it was altered by Choi to meet the needs of Suh,Bok Sub and His requirements for an art to be usable Against Judo,so things have been changed from the start.

I don't think this is at all true. The techniques are just easily suited to defend against judo throws - little was "changed" for that reason - do you have evidence of this assumption?

So what is True Hapkido ??

The art of Choi Dojunim - sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Who should lead the way?

There are LOTS of his senior students still living and teaching.

Unification is Out.

So we have what we have,as variants of Hapkido,but they are still core Pricipals related to the Original art,there will be more variants and changes in the future,we move on and we will read In Sun Seo's reflections and memories of the art from His View point.
(we must remeber that if all of us where in a room experiencing the same event all would come away with a different take on it and the series of events,this is History,one persons view through their eyes,probably seen differently by others in the art in those days through to today)

Jim, I tried to answer most of the post, cut some parts.

The issue is that we still have the original art - and lots of other non-Hapkido arts too - and as I see it, as long as they sell themselves as something "other" (better, stronger, faster) than Hapkido, I have really the best of wishes for them, but those of us interested in the original teachings of Choi Dojunim should be allowed to voice that as Hapkido without being labeled as "purists" - we train in Hapkido - those who train in other things - best of luck.

[JimH]

I was wondering how the Hapkido Teachings of Jang In Mok would compare to the teachings of Choi.

I wonder if the students of Jang In Mok are of similar Style to GM In Hyon Soo,GM Chin Il Chang,GM Rim Jang Bae and other long Term students of Choi who stayed with the founders art.

Now if we say that Jang In Mok learned the same Daito Ryu as Choi then we should see a similar Hapkido?

Now finding ranked students of Jang In Mok would prove changes or similarities between these two Daito Ryu/Hapkido Masters,that would be interesting to see.

I wonder how that would effect the truth of what is Hapkido?

To those unfamiliar with Jang In Mok,he is a Korean who eneded up in Japan and was also a student under Takeda in Daito Ryu and He actally has his paper work from Takeda showing his certificates to be able to Teach the art.

I have read that there is to be a book with his memories of training with Takeda and possible rememberances of Choi as a student of Takeda.

[iron_ox]

I was wondering how the Hapkido Teachings of Jang In Mok would compare to the teachings of Choi.

I wonder if the students of Jang In Mok are of similar Style to GM In Hyon Soo,GM Chin Il Chang,GM Rim Jang Bae and other long Term students of Choi who stayed with the founders art.

Now if we say that Jang In Mok learned the same Daito Ryu as Choi then we should see a similar Hapkido?

Now finding ranked students of Jang In Mok would prove changes or similarities between these two Daito Ryu/Hapkido Masters,that would be interesting to see.

I wonder how that would effect the truth of what is Hapkido?

To those unfamiliar with Jang In Mok,he is a Korean who eneded up in Japan and was also a student under Takeda in Daito Ryu and He actally has his paper work from Takeda showing his certificates to be able to Teach the art.

I have read that there is to be a book with his memories of training with Takeda and possible rememberances of Choi as a student of Takeda.

Hello all,

Jang Im Mok, when he did teach, did not call what he taught Hapkido, but according to one source called it something like Kihapdo (I will have to see the actual Korean word again to confirm this). One of his senior students is reported to be Hur, Il Ooung - who travelled to the UK in the early 1980's under one of the KHA banners as an 8th dan Hapkido.

I have never seen the material he learned from Jang, Im Mok, but have been told it is quite different from the material of Choi Dojunim - Jang was a typical seminar student, acoording to Choi Dojunim, he lived and travelled with Takeda Sokaku - again what was taught to him from what area of Takeda repetoire, who knows.

[JimH]

If one were to Label their style or Art as The True Lineage of Hapkido as direct from the Originator ,Choi ,without changes I would imagine that would be a draw to many.
But
If one is deemed Pure,what are other styles?
Must they indicate they are variants?

Again if we continue to break down,belittle and degrade anything other than pure Hapkido who do we hurt .

Look at those who fight for the title of Being the True Leader,True Head of Ed Parkers Kenpo Karate,the more they fight for the Leadership or True Kenpo Karate as directed by the founder the more they Hurt themseleves and their art.

I train in Combat Hapkido,a Variation of Hapkido, different than that of the founder and different then that of Ji Han Jae,but the core of what we do,the majority of what we do is Hapkido as based on the Core Principles as found in the founders art,as also Found in Daito Ryu.

When I watch In Sun Seo do his version of Hapkido I see what we do.
When I watch Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu GM Miguel Ibarra I see what we do.
When I watch Kondo Tapes of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu I see what we do.
When I watched Chin Il Chang do His Original/Purist form of Hapkido as from the Founder,I see what we do.
When I watch GM Lee Do His Hapkido I see what we do.
When I watch Ik Jo Kang do his Hapkido I see what we do.
When I watch Aikido by Ueshiba ,Seagal,Yamada,I see what we do.
I have not seen Video or teachings of GM Rim but without seeing it I will still jump to the conclusion that it will look like what we do.

I understand the point of Purist needs and the passing on of the concepts and teachings of the Founder,I hope it stays intact and does not change as it is something which needs to stay intact for others to be able to see ,do, and compare to.
But
I also see how even though other variants of Hapkido have been created and emerge if we stay to the core Priciples we will still see the founders art.

I also believe,as Iron Ox has said, that if one trains the true core of Hapkido and impliment and understand the priciples of employment one need not go outside the art to find the answers to almost all situations we could encounter,but the problem is that this takes time and today time does not seem to something the majority wish to commit to,so they say the art does not have the answers and they look else where for the so called,what they believe to be,quick fix.

[JimH]

quote Iron ox:
"I have never seen the material he learned from Jang, Im Mok, but have been told it is quite different from the material of Choi Dojunim - Jang was a typical seminar student, acoording to Choi Dojunim, he lived and travelled with Takeda Sokaku - again what was taught to him from what area of Takeda repetoire, who knows."

.................................................. ................
Thank You for those points and thoughts Sir.

This is what I was more or less hoping for,Variation of technique even though the art of both men was the same root.(Root Daito Ryu from Takeda)
(I also hoped for similarities of comparison,but I will take what I can get for the dialogue,lol)

So should we further disect the teachings of the two who brought their version of Daito Ryu to Korea to find the Purist?
Or
Should we accept the teachings of the Master we have available to us,appreciate it and the work of those who came before,or fight for truth and recognition of style and condone the variant?

I appreciate all those who truly work in any art as they have dedicated,time,moeny and sweat maybe some blood to learn,perfect and pass on the teachings of those who came before.

I especially respect those who work and perfect the arts that require fine motor skills employment,make it work and pass it on.

I appreciate the Purist,but the Purist is not available to all,so we find the art and we find the teacher who passes on the core principles and we stay and learn,love what we do and teach it and pass it on ,or we leave and look for something else tofit our need or something else to do with our time all together.

[CJ]

I know I will get into hot water for this.
But just from outside looking in. He kind of looks like he is pimping out hapkido sorry kido.
I am sure he might be a cool guy.
But it looks like any one can be grandmaster under his org.
I hope I am wrong.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I know I will get into hot water for this.
But just from outside looking in. He kind of looks like he is pimping out hapkido sorry kido.
I am sure he might be a cool guy.
But it looks like any one can be grandmaster under his org.
I hope I am wrong.

cj I have to agree with you it does look a little odd
Wow this is an interesting thread.
Seo's jump from distancing himself from HKD while being in KSW, to his current alignment to HKD it is a bit puzzling. But i guess it serves his current needs. Does anyone know why he gave up his position as pres of Ki do Hae, and start World Ki Do Assoc. ?? It seems like a demotion in a way. Why would anyone step away from such a prestigous and powerful position, and then basically re-create that same thing on thier own. seems a little counterintuitive doesn't it?

[JimH]

Hapkido's Governing Bodies

By the early 1960's the various South Korean based schools of Hapkido were already fragment from the original teaching of Yong Shul Choi. Seeking an official governing body, advanced teachers the art petition the Korean government for a formalized organization. On September 2, 1963, the Korean Ministry of Education granted a charter to the Korea Kido Association. This extended this organization the right to supervise and regulate the standards of teaching, as well as promotion requirements for Hapkido and thirty additional Korean martial arts that had not congregated under the banner of Taekwondo. The first chairman of the Korea Kido Association (Ki Do Hae) was Choi, Yong Shul. Its first President was Lee, Kyu Jin, who held this position for two terms. Ji, Han Jae and other Korean Hapkido masters were additionally on its Board of Directors. In 1967, a new President, Kim, Du Young was elected. He held this position for several terms. On 26 January 1978, at the eighth Ki Do Hae election, a new president, Choi, Byung Rin, was elected. And, Choi, Byung Gu was elected the new Chairman. At the ninth Ki Do Hae election, held on 5 April 1981, Pyo, Si Chan was elected the organization's new president.On the first of June, 1983, at the tenth Ki Do Hae election, Suh, In Hyuk was appointed the Chairman. And, 10th Dan, Kuk Sool Won, Grandmaster, Seo, In Sun was elected its president.Grandmaster Seo was the first non-politician and actual martial art master to hold this appointment. He maintained this position until 2002. He remains presdient of the World Ki Do Federation and in 2003 he founded Han Min Jok Hapkido Association in Seoul, South Korea.



The World Kido Federation was founded by Grandmaster In Sun Seo in 1986 to serve as a link between the official Martial Arts governing body of Korea and the rest of the Martial Arts community of the world. With the formation of world Kido Federation, the international practitioners of Korean Martial Arts can registered their ranks and schools with an official Korean government recognized organization, which will ensure permanent documentation of their martial arts history. Unlike some private organizations that have collapsed when their leaders pass away or leave the Martial Arts altogether, World Kido Federation' direct link to the government recognized organization in Korea ensures legitimacy, continuity, and safety for all our members.

World Kido Federation members enjoy registration of their records through Han Min Jok Hapkido Association which is a premier, well respected Martial Arts organization founded by Grandmaster In Sun Seo. Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is a non-profit Martial Arts organization registered with the Ministry of Culture/Tourism of Korea.

[JimH]

The KiDo Hae was formed to be the Governing body for Hapkido.
(later it became the Governing body of all arts of Korea except TKD)

So for In Sun Seo to be the Head of the Kido Hae for near on 20 years one must conceed that he was worthy of the Position and or ALOT of Hapkido Ranked People Certified and Ranked since 1983 are fakes.

In Sun Seo was removed because others felt he was spending more time working with the World Kido,outside of Korea than with the Kido Hae.

When people start talking about people and oragnizations giving out high ranks and Grand Master titles,people should understand how many of the Grand Masters of today got their titles,few stayed under any master to be ranked beyond 2nd-3rd degrees,so who ranked them?

How many 6-7-8-9 or 10th dans were there in ANY Korean art in the 40s-60s?
LOL?
NONE

As others began to promote themselves and or have students promote them,those senior masters looked at Juniors with equal and more rank and therefore created ranks to stay ahead of their juniors.

Then we can look and see who self promoted to certain ranks?,who were promoted by their students?,who were given rank just to push an art or organization?

There are many who had minimal skills and were promoted under the Banner of Kuk Sool and other arts who then went and promoted others who are called legends,Masters and Grand masters.

The Koreans Give and Gave other Koreans Great jumps in these arts,read the histories and Bio's.

The Koreans who came to the US Give and Gave Great ranks to some Americans to help push their arts,some from other arts,I know several Shotokan people Ranked as Masters in TKD to help teach and spread organizations.

Other Americans ranked as 1st degrees in Hapkido,Judo or Jujitsu and Aikido from the military or civilian side given Masters ranking to push organizations.

In Sun Seo most likely does and did this as do and did many others from other Organizations.

Read the History and Bios of many,some have pages of Bio's some have minimal bio's,many have contradicting bio's,most had training to 2-3rd degrees and never trained under their original masters or any other senior,so who promoted them??

Few Hapkidoists have high ranking from Choi,now he would be the senior Hapkidoist in Korea,so who promoted the rest???LOL

In 1982 Choi came to New York and Promoted Chin Il Chang to 10th dgeree to allow him to Head a reunifictaion of Hapkido,(some say it was 9th degree,whatever),in 1984 Choi promoted Master Rim to 7th Degree,so these were among Choi's top students in Hapkido,yet by 1982 how many 10th dan Hapkidoists and Hapkido oragnizations were there?
History and Bio's they are out there read them and see what the truth ACROSS the board is.

[Choiyoungwoo]

He maintained this position until 2002.
why ? what happened in 2002 that made him lose this appointment. you sound very well informed on this subject, and you have cited what sounds like an accurate list of who was appointed to this position over a period of time, but what I want to know is what happened in 2002 that caused him to lose that position?
In Sun Seo was removed because others felt he was spending more time working with the World Kido,outside of Korea than with the Kido Hae. I know that was your answer, and I am not saying you are wrong, but that doesn't make sense, and I have a hard time with that. Why would the pres of KDH NEED to focus on non profit WKDA stuff,,,, he already has the power, and if there is no money involved,what would be the purpose. it sounds like KDH and WKDA were a conflict of interest!!! This whole thing smell very fishy. when things smell fishy ...follow the money.....

who gets paid when it's time to get certified in kdh?
who gets paid when it's time to get certified in wkda?

The World Kido Federation was founded by Grandmaster In Sun Seo in 1986 to serve as a link between the official Martial Arts governing body of Korea and the rest of the Martial Arts community of the world.

Why can't they just skip the middleman(WKDA) and affiliate directly with KDH?

With the formation of world Kido Federation, the international practitioners of Korean Martial Arts can registered their ranks and schools with an official Korean government recognized organization, which will ensure permanent documentation of their martial arts history.

How does WKDA do this differently than KDH? doesn't KDH already do this?? why would you need to do it twice?

Unlike some private organizations that have collapsed when their leaders pass away or leave the Martial Arts altogether, World Kido Federation' direct link to the government recognized organization in Korea ensures legitimacy, continuity, and safety for all our members.

How is that different from the private orgs that you mentioned?

KDH still exsists so why does any HKD school owner need to go through WKDA, what is the functional need for the WKDA when KDH is the official body ?

I know I sound a little skeptical, and I don't mean to come across a confrontational. But this is all very .................................................. .................................................. ...........weird. sounds like AMWAY!!!!!! MLM for tkma :D

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This is a good post, but I am going to abridge some of it to raise some points. Hope you don't mind Jim.

If one were to Label their style or Art as The True Lineage of Hapkido as direct from the Originator ,Choi ,without changes I would imagine that would be a draw to many.
But
If one is deemed Pure,what are other styles?

To me, the other styles are variants, some to a lesser degree than others.
Must they indicate they are variants?

I think that to bew honest with students, it is crucial that variance is indicated. Frankly, if someone is proud of their own "design" indicating they are a variation should be no issue.

Again if we continue to break down,belittle and degrade anything other than pure Hapkido who do we hurt .

I think no one. I believe it strengthens the true art. It would probably even lend some credibility to the variations if the art itself could be defined for what it is.

This statement brings up some interesting points to me - and Jim, please understand I use this statement for points I don;t think you yourself were raising.

When I have read similar statments over the years in print and the internet, I have often wondered "why is it such a big deal to define Hapkido for what it is without everyone screaming that this hurts the art?" Oddly enough, it always seems to be someone from a variant that thinks they will be derided if the art is defined within a narrow confine. All the sub-groups that over the years have struggled so hard to separate themselves from Hapkido, now seem with the advent of the internet - and after 1986 (the death of Choi Dojunim) - come streaming back with tales of lifelong associations with Choi Dojunim and even wilder tales of rank and position in the art - even thought they maintain that the art they teach is "different". Because so many people have been so willing to accept sweeping generalizations such as "Hapkido arts" and the like, any attempt to define the art and categorize peoples positions in the art has alwys been met with resistance and complaints of being belittled and sidelined. THis is a huge paradox to me. On one hand, people want to use the name "Hapkido" (in some cases) or try to prove some link to Choi Dojunim, but on the other hand, they wll not participate in defining the art as that of Choi dojunim - even if the vast majority of people in the world do a variation. Now, I have no real interest in trying to deride a varinat - maybe now because I see the how seperate the variants are from the original material, or maybe because I am a little older, but I liken this to a comparison between cars (as a rough example).

If I were to tell someone that I have a car I am going to give to them, they ask what kind, and I just say a car, well that is a broad description indeed. If I say that the car is a mint condition 1965 Ford Mustang, that is defined - and classified - and a bit rare - now if I show up with a Ford Fairmont - well that is not in the definition of what I described - yes it is a car, and it will do the job, even a Ford, but not the same. Now, forget the "value difference" - just look at the difference in the make - they are both cars, both Ford's but clearly different - but being able to define them both is what sepeartes them to the average person - and it is itellectual honesty. If a person is a 3rd Dan Hapkido, it is what it is - if that person waits 30 years to announce this, it does not make him a 10th dan - just a thirty year 3rd dan - just as in 30 years a Ford Fairmont will not be a Ford Mustang.

But again, I see little need for variants to be concerned with being belittled, unless the foundation of what they are built on is untrue and they have used a smoke screen of a little defined Hapkido to build upon.

Look at those who fight for the title of Being the True Leader,True Head of Ed Parkers Kenpo Karate,the more they fight for the Leadership or True Kenpo Karate as directed by the founder the more they Hurt themseleves and their art.

I believe that much of this debate surfaced around rank and position - or lack thereof - we have PLENTY of "Paper" from Choi Dojunim to signify both rank and position.

I train in Combat Hapkido,a Variation of Hapkido, different than that of the founder and different then that of Ji Han Jae,but the core of what we do,the majority of what we do is Hapkido as based on the Core Principles as found in the founders art,as also Found in Daito Ryu.

When I watch In Sun Seo do his version of Hapkido I see what we do.

There are only so may ways to twist and arm - and I have seen lots of things that resemble what I teach - my point from this would be where on the chin were these people from the founder of the art? What Choi Dojunim taught was unique in Korea - that is why it spread so fast - but these men all trace their training in one way or another to Choi Dojunim. Perhaps some are better than others, but I am interested in their standing within Choi Dojunim's art - again, even if the "rank" is low, perhaps they have a huge contribution to make.

But
I also see how even though other variants of Hapkido have been created and emerge if we stay to the core Priciples we will still see the founders art.

But the point is that it is not the founders art - but something different. To me it is a question of intellectual honesty - if you teach a variant, just call it that - even to the exclusion of the word Hapkido all together. If Seo would have called his organization the Hanminjok Martial Arts Assoc., and presumed to hand out 9th dans in "Hapkido" related and named arts, I don;t think anyone would have cared - and if those arts were sound, then not using the name Hapkido should have caused no problem at all to their growth. But to use thew name Hapkido implies a connection - one that to me is only there in the most transparent fashion.

I also believe,as Iron Ox has said, that if one trains the true core of Hapkido and impliment and understand the priciples of employment one need not go outside the art to find the answers to almost all situations we could encounter,but the problem is that this takes time and today time does not seem to something the majority wish to commit to,so they say the art does not have the answers and they look else where for the so called,what they believe to be,quick fix.

Couldn't agree more here.



Again, I want to reiterate, I think that if what a person trains in works for them, all power to them - I am just skeptical at the marketing that uses the name Hapkido when there is really very little connection to the art itself and what may be actually taught.

[iron_ox]

quote Iron ox:
"I have never seen the material he learned from Jang, Im Mok, but have been told it is quite different from the material of Choi Dojunim - Jang was a typical seminar student, acoording to Choi Dojunim, he lived and travelled with Takeda Sokaku - again what was taught to him from what area of Takeda repetoire, who knows."

.................................................. ................
Thank You for those points and thoughts Sir.

This is what I was more or less hoping for,Variation of technique even though the art of both men was the same root.(Root Daito Ryu from Takeda)
(I also hoped for similarities of comparison,but I will take what I can get for the dialogue,lol)

So should we further disect the teachings of the two who brought their version of Daito Ryu to Korea to find the Purist?

I don't think that is needed - Jang Im Mok never called what he did Hapkido - the art that Choi Dojunim taught was also not Daito-Ryu - it was his collection the material he was taught.

Or
Should we accept the teachings of the Master we have available to us,appreciate it and the work of those who came before,or fight for truth and recognition of style and condone the variant?

Why not define the style and strengthen the variants for what they are?


I appreciate the Purist,but the Purist is not available to all,so we find the art and we find the teacher who passes on the core principles and we stay and learn,love what we do and teach it and pass it on ,or we leave and look for something else tofit our need or something else to do with our time all together.

I think this is fine - as long as the variant is honest in what it is.



I think that there are many cases where variants havew clearly blazed a path while clearly stateing they are not the same as the original - look at Jeet Kune Do - lots of clear variants there - and they are proud to claim variation - but they seem to continue to grow.

[iron_ox]

The KiDo Hae was formed to be the Governing body for Hapkido.
(later it became the Governing body of all arts of Korea except TKD)

So for In Sun Seo to be the Head of the Kido Hae for near on 20 years one must conceed that he was worthy of the Position and or ALOT of Hapkido Ranked People Certified and Ranked since 1983 are fakes.

I will not argure the list of names in the history but rather the interpretation - there have been as many as 3 sanctioned groups calling themselves Kido Hae operation in Korea for a long time. The group that Seo In Sun and his brother Suh In Hyuk took over was described to me many times as defunct, and out of "favor" because it was not in Seoul, but in the country.

The Kido Hae was NEVER designated as a governing body for any art other than Hapkido - but for the Seo/Suh brothers to have a managing interest to perpetuate and publisize Kuk Sool Won - they molded their version of Kido Hae to be "all inclusive" - excapt for TKD - which they could never control as well. It is interesting to me that of the 31 or so arts they list - most are no where to be found - except Hapkido and of course Kuk Sool Won. Also, examine the fact that Kuk Sool Won had a tiny presence in Korea - and in 1983 when Suh took over this provincial, defunct version of Kido Hae, he lived in San Francisco - but it gave the brothers something they needed - a strong, Korean Government recognized connection - so that rank hungry westerners had a place to look back to and say their rank must be legitimate.

Recall for years that the Seo/Suh brothers PUSHED this Kido Hae as the only recognized body in Korea by the government - and that if rank did not come from them, it was not "official". Well, this official government recognition is little more than an application, the same as a business license - so in that case I am recognized by the State of Illinois, and the US Federal Government.

If someone simply applies to take control of a group, it does not imply in any way that they are ranked or sanctioned by anyone to control the organization, just that they filled in the form.


When people start talking about people and oragnizations giving out high ranks and Grand Master titles,people should understand how many of the Grand Masters of today got their titles,few stayed under any master to be ranked beyond 2nd-3rd degrees,so who ranked them?

And there is the $10,000 question - with definition of the art would certainly come a better understanding as to who should be ranking who in what...

How many 6-7-8-9 or 10th dans were there in ANY Korean art in the 40s-60s?
LOL?
NONE

True, Hapkido was only founded in 1947. The first 8th dans did not occur until the late 1960's as I understand. 9th dans in the late 1970's, early 1980's.


There are many who had minimal skills and were promoted under the Banner of Kuk Sool and other arts who then went and promoted others who are called legends,Masters and Grand masters.

Please cite an example. I am curious.

In Sun Seo most likely does and did this as do and did many others from other Organizations.

I see no problem what-so-ever if he did this under the Kuk Sool Won banner - under a Hapkido banner is another story I think.


Few Hapkidoists have high ranking from Choi,now he would be the senior Hapkidoist in Korea,so who promoted the rest???LOL

Actually, there are several men in Korea Ranked over 6th Dan by Choi Dojunim. And three (living) ranked to 9th Dan.

In 1982 Choi came to New York and Promoted Chin Il Chang to 10th dgeree to allow him to Head a reunifictaion of Hapkido,(some say it was 9th degree,whatever),in 1984 Choi promoted Master Rim to 7th Degree,so these were among Choi's top students in Hapkido,yet by 1982 how many 10th dan Hapkidoists and Hapkido oragnizations were there?

This is mostly true. Chang Dojunim (as his title is) was given the rank in Korea on live television with Choi Dojunim's son in attendence and Grandmaster Lim as the MC. I will not go into all the details I have heard about this event in the US, but suffice to day that many "Hapkido notables" were excluded from the visit - draw your own conclusions. As for 10th dans, the emergence of these groups as well as the instant connections to Choi Dojunim did not occur until after his death in 1986.

History and Bio's they are out there read them and see what the truth ACROSS the board is.

I agree with this last statement - and it is therefore even more imprortant to examine a true definintion of what Hapkido is.

[iron_ox]

when things smell fishy ...follow the money.....

Agreed.

who gets paid when it's time to get certified in kdh?
who gets paid when it's time to get certified in wkda?

Moreover, what is KIDO Hae for as opposed to WKDA? Answer - KIDO HAE is Hapkido - WKDA is for any art designated not TKD by SEO - as I see it.



Interesting analogy... :) Amway, hum, selling products close to the original, but a little different - sorry couldn't resist.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Interesting analogy... :) Amway, hum, selling products close to the original, but a little different - sorry couldn't resist.
Answer - KIDO HAE is Hapkido - WKDA is for any art designated not TKD by SEO - as I see it.

So Seo is out of KDH for unconfirmed reasons that no one can really cite (No offense JimH, i don't dispute your answer, but I have a feeling that there is more to the story than maybe any of us know) and Seo has an org that looks, seems, smells, and operates in a very similar way and is using a name that is so arguably likeable similar that one might mistakingly assume that they are one in the same. When in reality it looks like it is nothing more than Seo's version of WKSA. Well I wonder why he was spending so much time on WKDF and not on the high level, prestigous, unique, position with KDH? HMMMMMM? :rolleyes:

HMJHKD is "non-profit" but it is "under " WKDF which, I would bet, is anything but "non-profit".
Sounds like WKDA is essentially In Sun Seo Inc.

he's just "using" the name "Hapkido" to further his own cause
I can't blame pure HKD folks for being a little unhappy with this.

[JimH]

In Sun Seo,from my understanding ,was doing ALOT of work with the World Kido Organization,his brother In Hyuk Suh (who basically took over the Kido Hae in 1983) replaced him with another one of their Brothers ,I believe.

In Sun Seo retained control of the still recognized World Kido Organization and created the Han Min Jok HAPKIDO Association as well as being a ranking member in the Kuk Sool Won association.

To say purists are upset over what In Sun Seo or In Hyuk Suh or the Lee Brothers or Ji Han Jae do is something I do not understand as it is variant forms of Hapkido that so called purists have distaste for but that does not mean the variants cannot co exist does it?

The Purists do not have to be associated with In Sun Seo,,In Hyuk Suh,the Kido Hae,The world Kido Association or Ham Min Jok or Kuk Sool Won do they?

To worry about the growth and fostering of Hapkido variants does not take anything away from the purists as if one is a dedicated or interested,consumer,student or teacher they would research what they are going to learn,what they learn and what they teach and the lineage of such.

Again people do not know crap for the most part about anything they join or sign up for,few are consmers who research anything,they mostly go to dojoangs,dojo's,training halls that are near where they live.

[iron_ox]

In Sun Seo,from my understanding ,was doing ALOT of work with the World Kido Organization,his brother In Hyuk Suh (who basically took over the Kido Hae in 1983) replaced him with another one of their Brothers ,I believe.

No, the last I heard, the Seo/Suh family was out altogether.

In Sun Seo retained control of the still recognized World Kido Organization and created the Han Min Jok HAPKIDO Association as well as being a ranking member in the Kuk Sool Won association.

Agreed. I don't know what his relationship is with KukSool Won anymore though.

To say purists are upset over what In Sun Seo or In Hyuk Suh or the Lee Brothers or Ji Han Jae do is something I do not understand as it is variant forms of Hapkido that so called purists have distaste for but that does not mean the variants cannot co exist does it?

First, I'm not upset - and as the opnly purist in this discussion, I hope you don't mean me... :) . However, you are alos mixing apples and oranges - Seo/Suh and the Lee Brothers do not teach Hapkido - at all - they teach their own thing - it is only know they have decided to latch onto Choi Dojunim for some reason which I do find didtasteful. They all spent the better part of 3 decades separating themselves from Hapkido - now they want to just realign? This is not only odd, but makes no sense in realtion to what they want to teach, which is decidedly not Hapkido - or follows even itw principles.

The Purists do not have to be associated with In Sun Seo,,In Hyuk Suh,the Kido Hae,The world Kido Association or Ham Min Jok or Kuk Sool Won do they?

No, agreed. Most "purists" as you insist on calling us are aligned with organizations that have members high ranked by Hapkido's Founder, Choi Dojunim.

To worry about the growth and fostering of Hapkido variants does not take anything away from the purists as if one is a dedicated or interested,consumer,student or teacher they would research what they are going to learn,what they learn and what they teach and the lineage of such.

Well said, this is the argument I have been making - Seo is a Kuk Sool Won master, not a Hapkido master - according to his own bio.

Again people do not know crap for the most part about anything they join or sign up for,few are consmers who research anything,they mostly go to dojoangs,dojo's,training halls that are near where they live.

I think this is in part due to the fact that people continue to reinvent the history of Hapkido to an extent that it is some "generic" thing. AS far as training in your neigborhood - yep, most start their, then, if the art matteres, they will seek out what they are looking for - my stance is that if they seek out Hapkido, they should be alowed to know exactly what it is and is not.



I do think it is interesting that you continue to use the word "purist" - this has very negative connotations as the term most recently is used to apply to those people seeking racial or religious purity - at the expense of others - that is not my goal in Hapkido at all. I think it is vitally important that people are made aware that this art is rare - and that the art of Choi Dojunim is still alive and kicking - despite others efforts to muddy the waters as I see Seo doing.

To use the word purist like this implies this effort to properly align the art is wrong - which I will never believe it is. I think the issue is that people that are further away from the core of the art will look at their position as threatened and make valiant efforts to control something they do not posess. An accurate accounting of where people actually stand in relation to the art of Choi Dojunim will only strenthen the art, and will serve as a benefit to those variants and offshoots that started with recognized standing - BUT this is not really an issue for variants either - Kuk Sool Won should care less how they fair in such a list becasue they are an independant an seperate art - but such a comprehensive list will give the average consumer a way to judge from another perspective what they are training in.

[JimH]

The reference to the statement of purists being upset was in response to
Choiyoungwoo's quote
"I can't blame pure HKD folks for being a little unhappy with this."

I am sorry I use the term Purist as you had used it prior,what is a better term "Originalists",I do not know as Hapkidoist or Hapkidoin is too general and does not specify followers of the original teachings?

In Sun Seo says he and his brother First taught Hapkido,specific,then opened Kuk Sool Won,but as said The Lee Brothers seem to have had Kuk sool won prior to In Hyuk suh.

The Lee Brothers also taught only Hapkido in the begining and many have said that what they taught in the early to mid seventies in the US was Pure Hapkido ,prior to their change to Hwarangdo.

This is like saying Ueshiba never taught Daito Ryu,but he did and changed it over time and at various stages significant changes in the art took place ,that is why some of the earlier aikido has massive striking and as the instructors come on board the later participants say it was mostly compliant.

I have no problem with Purists or Originalists,I wish I had had the chance to put in more training time with Chin Il Chang,but such was not the case so I trained under other Hapkidoists I had availibility to and found and art and Instructor I was happy to train with and stay with.

I appreciate those who have found true lineage without diversion from the teachings of Choi,but as said I trained with those available and looking at what instructors under Choi,Under Ji Han Jae,Under In Sun Seo , Under Daito Ryu and Under Aikido I see the core principles constantly without diviation.

I celebrate that all arts founded under and from Jujitsu ryu share the same common core principles and I do not seek to make differentiation or singularity of a specific art,but I also appresiate those who see what they do as seperate and distinct.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I think that the issue I have with looking at other cariants is the actual level of training that the individual has in the art of Hapkido.

Where I might agree that in many variants, the core "principles" are the same - or are listed as the same, the excecution of those principles is often very different.

An example I see all the time is when an opponent is led one way then for no real reason reversed, then often reversed again before being dispatched - now the "principles" of the art may be existant, but that is not how Hapkido should be excecuted.

Why would the same "core" principles not define this art? I do not see the ideas of Hwa Won Yu in Daito-ryu - or any other art - they are distinct to Hapkido.

Why can't Hapkido people be a little more honest when it comes to the lineage issue? If someone was a3rd dan in Shotokan and broke away to found his/her own style, the variant may be great, but they are still a 3rd dan in Shotokan - and that would not change until they got GRADED higher in Shotokan. In the same vein, if someone was a third dan Shotokan, and brole away to start their own organization, they take with them that grade - then any subsequesnt grade they issue should be looked at from that perspective relative to Shotokan as a whole; eg a whatever grade from a third dan.

I see the same with In Sun Seo - he is a third dan Hapkido - so how does he issue 9th dans? Granted, the head of an organization can issue whatever they want, but this is genrally done when there is a track record and large numbers of higher dans already involved with the organization with recognized rank in the art. Here is where I get lost in the argument - and can't find a way to rationalize this issue.

While I am really happy for anyone that trains where they best find a fit, I am really most concerned that the art of Hapkido has been genralized and marganalized to such a degree that the real side of the art could easily be lost in a marass of wierd variation.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Why would the same "core" principles not define this art? I do not see the ideas of Hwa Won Yu in Daito-ryu - or any other art - they are distinct to Hapkido.

While i agree with you on many things Iron Ox, this is not true. Virtually all JL technique in KSW are based on Yu Won Wha, and it has been for as long as I can remember.

Why can't Hapkido people be a little more honest when it comes to the lineage issue?
TKMA have always had this problem. and it won't ever go away.
I see the same with In Sun Seo - he is a third dan Hapkido - so how does he issue 9th dans? Granted, the head of an organization can issue whatever they want, but this is genrally done when there is a track record and large numbers of higher dans already involved with the organization with recognized rank in the art. Here is where I get lost in the argument - and can't find a way to rationalize this issue.

I feel the same way. Then I remember, it's business,,,not MA and it all makes sense. What baffles me is that so many smart people seem so willing to give these "grandmasters" a pass on that :confused:

While I am really happy for anyone that trains where they best find a fit, I am really most concerned that the art of Hapkido has been genralized and marganalized to such a degree that the real side of the art could easily be lost in a marass of wierd variation.

Unfortunately , it looks like it already has, and that process began in the late 50's by those who most regard now as "Grandmasters". Personally I think it's a character/integrity issue.

Again, very interesting thread....

[iron_ox]

While i agree with you on many things Iron Ox, this is not true. Virtually all JL technique in KSW are based on Yu Won Wha, and it has been for as long as I can remember.



Psst, becasue its just a Hapkido variant, right? :rolleyes:

[JimH]

The point about those who left as a certain rank and who are then seen as Masters and Grand Masters with High ranks is and has been brought up by In sun seo.
i have video of him at a seminar telling the History of Hapkido and asking how these men gained these ranks.

He then states that He has never given up training with his seniors and that his training has never been for himself and his advancement as others who left Hapkido,the Arts and Korea have never kept training under a senior and they took their 1-2-3rd dan and started their own style and that was that.

When we look at a Hapkido Masters Rank do we just look to if he was ranked by Choi?,how High a ranking ? and or if they were advanced only under Choi's Ranking students?

What was Choi's rank when he left Takeda? none he was just certified to teach.

What was Mok's rank under Takeda? None he was certified to teach.

What was Ueshiba's rank from Takeda? none he was certified to teach.

At what level ,and by whom then are ranks allowed to be certified to teach the art?

What was Genral Choi when he started TKD and the ITF? 2nd Dan

What was Mas Oyama 's rank? 2nd Dan

what was Chuck Norris or other tKD /Korean stylists when they opened schools? 1st degrees.

The truth is Rank is a competition of who is senior,who is better,who stayed longer.

Apparently Black Belts of 1-2-3rd dan are and were certified to teach or Choi would have had something to say when all these people left him and opened schools.

I say do away with rank and go back to being certified to teach.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Psst, becasue its just a Hapkido variant, right? :rolleyes:

Well my point was that the principle of Yu Won Wha is not only present, but a major part of KSW foundation, which you mentioned was not the case I do not see the ideas of Hwa Won Yu in Daito-ryu - or any other art - they are distinct to Hapkido..

But yes I would agree that HKD and KSW have roots that are common and HKD as a name probably exsisted first, so yes it is at least a partial variant. Actually I see KSW as having common roots with HKD and a Ship Pal Ge (sp?) influence of equal proportion. I am not aware of any ship pal ge influence in "original" HKD, is there?
I usually concede that the "what came from where " discussion goes no where, but the discussion of principles like "yu won wha" is really more interesting because it involves things that don't require a style label, therefore the discussion is less likely to carry a "style bias" and, as a result, all participants benefit in the discussion.

Thanks, Ox, Jim, Thomas et. al. you guys may not always agree, but at least the forum is civil and often very informative. If guys like ya'll are what HKD consists of then it's future seems in good hands regardless of what the "old guard koreans" do. As you can probably tell I am not a big Seo fan. I acknowledge his his skill level, he has few peers. But I question his character & motives, not based on conjecture but on his behavior and patterns of behavior over the last 20 years. Is he Chang Bi or Pil Bu?

[iron_ox]

The point about those who left as a certain rank and who are then seen as Masters and Grand Masters with High ranks is and has been brought up by In sun seo.
i have video of him at a seminar telling the History of Hapkido and asking how these men gained these ranks.

He then states that He has never given up training with his seniors and that his training has never been for himself and his advancement as others who left Hapkido,the Arts and Korea have never kept training under a senior and they took their 1-2-3rd dan and started their own style and that was that.

Granted, but by whom did he get higher rank, and what rank...there are only 4 cases of 9th dans being issued by Dojunimn Choi. Three of those men are alive - none are Seo, In Sun...

When we look at a Hapkido Masters Rank do we just look to if he was ranked by Choi?,how High a ranking ? and or if they were advanced only under Choi's Ranking students?

Of course we should - that is how an art maintains "what" it is...I have MNO problem with others starting variants - but that is what they are - variants - not Hapkido. Seo spent 25-30 years preaching the seperation of KukSool Won and Hapkido in line with his brother - that is fine - that was their business, and their livelihood - but to now do a flip-flop and say he has always trained in Hapkido - sorry, show me the paper.

What was Choi's rank when he left Takeda? none he was just certified to teach.

Regardless, he issued rank - certificates that were simply written declarations at first, then became more formal later over time - but he issued rank - THAT is the defining element here - no rank - well, in my mind no question.


The truth is Rank is a competition of who is senior,who is better,who stayed longer.

Umm, yes, and no, not a competition, but certainly recognition of training.

Apparently Black Belts of 1-2-3rd dan are and were certified to teach or Choi would have had something to say when all these people left him and opened schools.

Those students moved away from Deagu - so, I have no idea what the situation was between them and Choi Dojunim.

I say do away with rank and go back to being certified to teach.

While I might agree that doing away with rank is an OK idea, the fact is that the founder of the art, Choi Dojunim used and issued rank - so it is appropriate that we also do the same.

I think it is also relevant to examine the rank of so called higher dan rank and see where they came from and how they were issued. No small feat, but a first dan under Choi Dojunim is still a first dan - (and so forth) - perhaps a new "tree" should be made that reflects HAPKIDO rank as it was issued from the Choi Dojunim - this may have an interesting effect on how the art and its variants are perceived.

[kosunbi]

Thomas, would you mind LISTING the names of the GM's on the front row in this 2002 picture? I guess I failed the challenge. I was in Korea at that time, but for some reason, wasn't invited to the meeting.
Thanks,
Steve Kincade

[Thomas]

Thomas, would you mind LISTING the names of the GM's on the front row in this 2002 picture? I guess I failed the challenge. I was in Korea at that time, but for some reason, wasn't invited to the meeting.
Thanks,
Steve Kincade
I am not really sure of all the people shown, although I do recognize GM Ji Han Jae in the center, GM In Sun Seo to one side and Mr. Suh Bok-sup to the other (as well as various Sin Moo HKD senior masters).

To me anyway, it's a nice indication of the high esteem these men are held in by the Hapkido community.

[kosunbi]

Thanks, Thomas. I see I didn't put the smiley face next to the part about not being invited...

The people I talked to who attended that meeting were very tight-lipped about it, but hinted that it was a very rare summit of the Korean Hapkido community, with all the major organizations represented.

I agree, it certainly does give validation to the understanding of what "Hapkido" is considered to be in Korea.

[hapk1do]

Purists in the sense of the word have always existed when it comes to Martial Arts. However, there will never, literally, be a "pure" Martial Art. The very concept of Martial Arts in general depicts it throughout history, and history is forever changing as humans progress through time.

Choi himself was taught in Japan in a very different environment than the one he returned to Korea to teach in. The latter was an environment where he was the teacher, no longer the student. In fact, his records of what he was actually taught, and what rank he actually held, were apparently lost... But... his skills spoke for themselves... <<stating the obvious>>

...This, in itself, demonstrates the true nature of Martial Arts... If someone is capable and defines their techniques based on effectiveness and experience, then a piece of paper and a black belt really mean nothing in the grand scheme of things... Of Course, not to say that one should not be proud of any achievements, or recognize and respect that they are outranked... It's the will to expand the art and the desire to practice it.

I've heard about Dojangs where the Master Instructor appeared to have purchased his rank certificate right out of the back of any given martial arts magazine and declared himself 20th Degree Supreme Grand Master of some kooky art... However, to someone out there the guy is mesmerizing.

...I'm going to go out on a limb here and risk life and limb by asking, what's the difference? What's the difference in what you do opposed to that guy?..

...To me, the difference is that people like In Sun Seo are backed by a legitimate world government(S. Korea)... People like In Hyuk Suh have one of the largest independent traditional Korean Martial Arts organizations in the United States... People like Ji Han Jae trained people like Bruce Lee(Among others :) )... People like He Yong Kim wrote all those awesome books about Hapkido and KSW and the like... People like Chin Il Chang kept the dream alive and were gracious enough to spread the word... and on and on and on and on and on...

I say spread the word... don't hate, innovate.

Not Knocking anyone here... These are, of course, my opinions based on facts.
:D

[Choiyoungwoo]

...To me, the difference is that people like In Sun Seo are backed by a legitimate world government(S. Korea)
:D

Not anymore He "lost" that position, somehow?!??

[JTMS]

Not anymore He "lost" that position, somehow?!??

Please note: Grand Master In Sun Seo is the presiding Grand Master of the Korea Kuk Sool Assoc. and President of the Hanmijok Hapkido Assoc. (that has full recognition by the Korean government)

I was at the hanminjok hapkido world championships in Bussan in 2006 and there were thousands there. The association is very strong in Korea.

Best wishes,
J.B. Murphy

[coc716]

Same thing as above... waiting for member pics.
It's been a while now...

Anyone know what the status of SEO's book is? Still waiting on member pics? :)

[JTMS]

It's been a while now...

Anyone know what the status of SEO's book is? Still waiting on member pics? :)

Still no word. GM Seo will be back here in the states in October perhaps we will hear word then?

[Thomas]

The following is a transcript of [Steve Seo's] tranlation of GM In Sun Seo's comments at a Florida Seminar on March 28, 1999. The transcript was written by me (Thomas Morrison) based on several play throughs of the video. Any mistakes in transcription are mine and I apologize in advance.


I opened my first school in Pusan with In Hyuk Suh, who is in Houston, in 1961. I learned my basic techniques (Hoshinsool) from GM Choi Yong Sool, but I learned my forms (hyung) from Chinese Master Jin. I also learned some from my brother In Hyuk Suh.

About 1968, GM In Hyuk Suh was the head of Kuk Sol Won in Korea and I was chief master and when any type of demonstration or daily routine or work of Kuk Sool Won I was in charge of that.

In 1973, GM In Hyuk Suh basically released control of all of the daily operations of Kuk Sool Won and I took that responsibility. Shortly after that he came to the US on an immigration visa through the martial arts.

In 1975, by being recognized by the Korean Government, I was able to make a film called "Ho Kuk Moo Yea (호국무예) " which was a reflection of Korean arts at that time.

In 1977, as a Korean first, we were able to come to the state of Hawaii as official Korean representatives of the martial arts. I was the leader of the group as well as a demonstrator.

As the leader of Kuk Sool Won in Korea today, there are currently over 170 schools in Korea that he [GM In Sun Seo] manages the operation of and he currently heads.

In 1983 I was nominated and appointed the leader of the Kidohae and for the last 16 years I have been guiding and heading that organization in Korea.

I was the 10th President/Leader of Kidohae. Previous to me the 10 previous presidents were all businessmen and people who had money and wanted stature. Although Choi Yong Sool was the 1st chairman in the 1st and 2nd stages of Kidohae, the previous presidents were all businessmen.

Also, when we look at the numbers of schools affiliated with Kidohae, there are approximately 800. There are some schools that go back and forth and may change their affiliation for various reasons, but they always seem to come back and at this time there are approximately 800.

1963 in September of that year, we were the first organization to be recognized officially by the Korean Government.

At that time there were different groups such as Yudo, Taekwondo,and Gumdo and they were part of Athletic (Chay Yook) Groups but we were the first to be recognized as amartial arts group.

Also if you look at Yudo, taekwondo, and Kumdo, it is within 32 different Athletic styles.

At this time there are 2 organizations: the Kidohae and the Korean Hapkido Association. Regardless of the fact that they receieved government recognition in 1990 there are 2 at this time.

Kidohae's formation was for recognition of Korean martial arts (kuk sool) and that time that was the main focus for the Kidohae: to unify and to get Korean martial arts recognized. At that time to now there are 31 (?) different styles that are recognized.

For the 1st time outside of Korea and in the US, Kidohae has recognized the name or kwan of "International Combat Hapkido". This is the first time outside of Korea.

Every year Kuk Sool Won is currently testing 3,000 (1st dan) black belts a year.

In Kidohae, last year we had testing 18,000 black belts but this year, because the economy of Korea is a little bad, we expect 15,000.

In the world, if we look at the number of black belts, Kukkiwon is obviously number one but we are 2nd.

Kukkiwon black belts, 75% of them are children and another 15% of Kukkiwon black belts are in the army. So if you actually look at the percentages and you compare the black belt children going to school they're not really considered to be credible black belts. However, Kidohae, if you look at our numbers, 10% are children and another 10% are of different type and if you actually compare the percentage, we have more quality black belts.

If you apply for many jobs, such as a policeman in Korea and it is required that you have a black belt, aside from Kukiwon, you must have a black belt certificate from Daehan Kidohae with my signature on it.

As I may have mentioned yesterday and I want to reiterate, Kidohae is a non-profit organization and we work very hard to assist the martial arts growth. And at this time, I really want to congratulate you for becoming a full kwan with the Kidohae and I really hope you lok at Kidohae as an umbrella/organization that will help you grow and to foster your growth. We hope you are proud to be a member of our organization.

[Thomas]

The following is a transcript of [Steve Seo's] tranlation of GM In Sun Seo's comments at a Dallas Seminar in 2006. The transcript was written by me (Thomas Morrison) based on several play throughs of the video. Any mistakes in transcription are mine and I apologize in advance.


Especially the senior masters who are sitting up at the head table with Grandmaster (In Sun Seo), he'd like to thank you for coming.


You probably already know, this is Grandmaster Seo In Sun, the grandmaster and head of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association and the World Kido federation and he flew in from Korea 3 days ago to [name of a Texas town - unclear] and into Dallas yesterday.

Grandmaster would like to give you a brief history of Hapkido.

Grandmaster earned his 1st dan in Hapkido in 1958 and started his first Hapkido school in 1961. GM started his Hapkido under the founder of Hapkido Choi Yong Sool. That is GM's teacher.

When GM first go contact with Hapkdio, at its inception in 1957 there were only 2 Hapkido schools in Korea. Those two schools at that time were GM Choi Yong Sool Dojunim, the founder, as well as GM Suh Bok Sup also had a school at that time.

Dojunim GM Choi Yong Sool passed away in 1989. GM Suh Bok Sup is actually still alive. He's 82 years old but is no longer actively practicing and teaching Hapkido.

So, of all the Hapkido Grandmasters in Korea that are still teaching and still practicing, GM In Sun Seo is the most senior.

So, of note there are 3 other Grandmasters that actually are more senior than GM In Sun Seo. One is Gm Ji Han Jae, I believe you all should know. Also GM In Hyuk Suh, the founder of Kuk Sool Won, as well as another Grandmaster who has passed away: Kim Moo Hong.

The first time the name "Hapkido" was used in Korea was 1954. The first time there was an organization actually considered "Hapkido" was 1960.

In 1960, the 3 recognized , no not recognized, the 3 branches of Hapkido at the time were Sung Moo Kwan under GM Ji Han Jae, another was Shin Moo Kwan under Kim Moo Hong, and Kuk Sool Won Hapkido under GM In Hyuk Suh.

In that time, about 45-46 years since the original branches came, there are now over 3,000 Hapkido schools in Korea and it is considered the largest or greatest martial art in Korea. Obviously Taekwondo is a litle bit different since it is considered a sport now. But as a pure martial art, Hapkido is the largest in Korea.

So now, under GM In Sun Seo, under the Hanminjok Hapkido Association and the World Kido Federation, there are about 500 schools in Korea, and then about 400 schools around the world for a total of about 900 school currently within the organization.

So in terms of the other 2 branches of Hapkido he mentioned, GM Ji Han Jae left Korea in the 1970s (to come to the US) so now he has no actual schools in Korea under him. GM In Hyuk Suh of Kuk Sool Won has about 70 schools in Korea but the majority of his schools are outside of Korea.

So, as GM said, he obviously has a large amount of schools in Korea and he has been traveling back and forth between the US and Korea for the last 30 years and he definately wants to continue to grow Hapkido in the states, he's going to really look for those masters sitting next to him today to help him do that. He's asking you to keep working hard and he's asking you to make Hapkido and our association the best in the world.

So GM In Sun Seo would like to let you know he's continuously working as hard as he can to grow [our] Hapkido Association in Korea, but right now in the 12 primary schools, he's hoping in a year to have 1,000 schools under Hanminjok Hapkido. He's working hard in terms of publicity andmarketing and different things written within the largest martial arts newspapers and trade magazines. He's also going to release a book which I'll give you details on later. He's doing a lot of efforts to continue the growth of Hapkido organization towards the goal of having the largest and best Hapkido Association in the world.

The other reason why GM In Sun Seo hopes he'll attain the goals of that he set for himself and the organization is because it isn't just the name of GM In Sun Seo or the association. He is also officially recognized by the Korean Government. The reason why this is important is because martial arts is very importnat for government workers or if you want to be a police officer or military or bodyguard or any of these professions, if you want to be recognized or say you are a black belt or a 2nd dan or whatever, you have to be part of an association recognized by the Korean government and if you don't do that, even if you go somewhere and have a black belt, they'll say it's not a real black belt. GM In Sun Seo and his organization is one of the few that has that recognition. If you have a black belt by/from GM In Hyuk Suh or GM Ji Han Jae and if you go to Korea they won't recognize the certificate, whereas Hanminjok Hapkido Association or World Kido federation certificates they will. It's a very important point becasue that's one of the ways you gauge the official government certificate and why it's importnat. That's another reason why GM thinks that he he has that recognition anyway and continue to push that hard and he wants to to use that, and other things, to grow our organization into the best in the world.

So GM wants to say, as you can see, we have the credentials and we have everything we need to become the greatest martial arts organization in the world but what we need from you, the senior masters as well as anyone else that is part of the organization to continue to train hard and to continue to support the organization to make it become and stay the best in the world.

With that he'd like to say thanks for coming to the seminar and he'd like to thank you warmly and he'd like to begin training.

[coc716]

Thomas, that's excellent. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to transcribe and post all of that.

I'm still eagerly awaiting his book. :)

[Thomas]

-Continuation of Previous thread - what follows are comments from the Midday Remarks - 2006


GM would like to say a few more words right now.

GM wants to let everyone know he is 65 years old, very close to American age and 66 in Korean age. In Korea you are considered one when you are born. (Birthday August 1st)

So Gm has travelled the world on flights of 10 hours or more he's been 486 times. To the states from Korea back and forth or US to Europe or Korea to Europe, 486 times.

As we mentioned earlier, if you look at Korea right now, he's the most senior of those still training and still teaching (in Korea).

So for the period of 1965 to 1975 when he was in his prime, he actually practiced 3,000 spin kicks a day and also went all across Korea looking for people to spar with and have fighting matches with. This was Hapkido, Taekwondo, Yudo, Wrestling and all sorts of different types of martial arts and he could have 2-3 matches a day for a 10 year period and he never lost.

So GM, as he says before, even though there may be other individuals who have more experience than him or started earlier, they give him respect and show him respect he deserves because he has trained consistantly more than anyone else and he was able to use his martial arts skills in actual combat situations where most others have not.

So since 1965 to the present period, GM has also had a chance to be in the position of a high Hapkido master and senior master in Korea and have interactions with other martial arts around the world. He has demonstarted and trained with high ranking Wushu Masters in Mainland China, Karate Masters in Japan and Okinawa, with Aikijujutsu stylists and Aikido stylists from Japan. He has a lot of experience. So when it comes to martial arts techniques, philosophies and concepts he is an expert and knows what he's talking about.

So, an example is from the early 1980s when the first set of Wushu Mainland Chinese Martial Artsist started coming to the states to do demonstrations, GM actually was one of the people they did together with in Los Angeles.

So about 6 years ago, there was a gentleman from Okinawa, a 9th dan in Okinawan Karate. He actually demonstrated together in Hanover Germany at a big martial arts festival there and he demonstrated with him and they trained together.

So the point GM wants to make is that not only is he known and respected among Korean martial artists but he's had a chance to exchange the techniques and demonstrate with martial artists from all over the world, be it Karate, Jujitsu, Aikijujutsu, Chinese Wushu or Kungfu, he's had a lot of exposure and and they respect him so he's not just limited to Korean martial arts but he's well known and regarded outside of Korean martial arts as well.

Even now if you come to Korea and ask any martial arts person, any masters or grandmasters, all of them will give GM respect when they talk to him face-to-face because of the history and lineage and love of training he's had consistantly since 1958 all the way to now. All the martial arts masters in Korea know that and understand that and there might be some who say bad things behind his back, they don't say it to his face. He's earned that kind of respect.

So as GM has said before, he trained very hard in the 60s and 70s and he went all across Korea looking for people better than him. What he found was that he was training as hard or better than anyone else so by the 70s the level of intensity went down a bit. He said he could have been a lot better but he's lazier now in his 60s. He's hoping some one of you will train harder and be better than he is. You can watch him and learn from his techniques and make them better. You can make our organization better.

From Korea to now, from the 50s to now, there are probably 800,000 that have gotten their 1st dan in Hapkido. About 400,000 of them have da certificates with GM In Sun Seo's signature on it. Of the 800,000 he has awarded half of them. A huge portion have earned their black belts and dans from his organizations.

So to finish, he'd like to say he's been training a long time and he's a little older now, in his 60s but he'd like to show his best technqiues. He likes training with you and hopes to impart some knowledge and teaching to you. He hopes you will take that and become a better martial artist, possibly become better than GM and learn even more techniques. He'd like to leave you with that and make sure you understand that and help make ours the best organization in the world.

[SUNGJADO]

Thanks for that Thomas. I was there in Dallas, 2006 and celebrated his 65th birthday with him.

[Out-to-Lunch]

Thanks Thomas!

[nj_howard]

So for the period of 1965 to 1975 when he was in his prime, he... went all across Korea looking for people to spar with and have fighting matches with. This was Hapkido, Taekwondo, Yudo, Wrestling and all sorts of different types of martial arts and he could have 2-3 matches a day for a 10 year period and he never lost.
Two or three matches a day, every day, for ten years, and he never lost, not even once?

Surely I'm not the only one who finds this completely incredible.

btw, as for the reference to Choi Yong Sul's death date, it was not 1989. It was 1986.

[JTMS]

Two or three matches a day, every day, for ten years, and he never lost, not even once?

Surely I'm not the only one who finds this completely incredible.

btw, as for the reference to Choi Yong Sul's death date, it was not 1989. It was 1986.

I was the host of the Dallas seminar where this speech was given. It is a well known fact of GM Seo's fighting record.
If you wish to doubt him that is your option. You have the right to be wrong.

As far as the date of GM Choi's death.........I have the audio and video footage of the speech, 1986 was the year that was quoted, however I do think that Thomas has done a very good job posting the info!

My Grand Master will be in Orlando at an open seminar next week end. I invite you to come and see for yourself!

[Thomas]

As far as the date of GM Choi's death.........I have the audio and video footage of the speech, 1986 was the year that was quoted, however I do think that Thomas has done a very good job posting the info!



Uggggh ... my apologies. That was a mistake on my part. I can't edit the document here at MAP (time restriction) but thanks for the correction (feel free to post others too - thanks!)

[shimajiro]

lol!! This is a pretty funny thread!! :D

as is this one..........aren't they all!!!

[nj_howard]

It is a well known fact of GM Seo's fighting record.
If you wish to doubt him that is your option. You have the right to be wrong.
:)

A "well known fact", is it?

OK, then... I suppose you can produce documentation to prove it. Something besides what somebody said at a seminar. You know, something like records kept by an independent party.

As for my right to be wrong... well, obviously, you too enjoy (and avail yourself of) that same right.

Whoever said that about the thousands of fights over a period of several years without one single defeat - yes indeed, I doubt that totally. No disrespect intended, but come on... how could anybody believe such a claim about any martial artist? If I heard such a claim about the headmaster of our kwan, I wouldn't believe it for an instant.

[JTMS]

:)

A "well known fact", is it?

OK, then... I suppose you can produce documentation to prove it. Something besides what somebody said at a seminar. You know, something like records kept by an independent party.

As for my right to be wrong... well, obviously, you too enjoy (and avail yourself of) that same right.

Whoever said that about the thousands of fights over a period of several years without one single defeat - yes indeed, I doubt that totally. No disrespect intended, but come on... how could anybody believe such a claim about any martial artist? If I heard such a claim about the headmaster of our kwan, I wouldn't believe it for an instant.

Look..... Even those that do not like Grand Master Seo all say the same thing about him, when he was a younger man. I have had talks with senior Kuk Sool masters that were around back then and some of them are not even with World Kido and they give the same accounts.

At 65 yrs of age his martial skill is still matched only by a few if any! Imagine what he was like at 35!!!!!

You also stated that if your Grand Master Made the same claim you would doubt it. I think I know who your Grand Master is and I have no reason to doubt any of his claims. I have to much respect for those that have walked down the path before us.

I am with Grand Master Seo because I have found him to be a great martial artist, a great teacher, and a great person he is a role model for all of mu students as well as myself. My wish is that one day I can be half as good as he is now at the age of 65.

I think one would have to train with any of the Seo/Suh family members to truly understand what great martial skill they really have.

[JTMS]

as is this one..........aren't they all!!!
You said it!! lol

[nj_howard]

You... stated that if your Grand Master Made the same claim you would doubt it. I think I know who your Grand Master is and I have no reason to doubt any of his claims. I have to much respect for those that have walked down the path before us.
Mr Murphy,

It's not disrespectful to question somebody's claims if those claims sound improbable.

Our headmaster is not given to making claims. He recounts his training history from time to time. There is really no doubt about his history and his relationship with Choi Yong Sul.

As I said, I intend no disrespect toward GM Seo, and have never questioned his martial skills. I've never met or seen him, have never trained in the Kuk Sool arts, and am therefore unqualified to assess his skills. Not that my assessment would matter to anybody anyway.

I am with Grand Master Seo because I have found him to be a great martial artist, a great teacher, and a great person he is a role model for all of mu students as well as myself. My wish is that one day I can be half as good as he is now at the age of 65.
You're fortunate to be with a teacher whom you can hold in such esteem.

I think one would have to train with any of the Seo/Suh family members to truly understand what great martial skill they really have.
I'd have to agree with that. I'd say that's true about anybody. You can't fully assess their skills from videos, books or internet comments.

Just to reiterate... the only thing I questioned was the claim to have fought thousands of matches all across Korea for so many years without ever losing. It just doesn't stand to reason. Surely somebody, somewhere, would have beaten him at least once.

[Thomas]

Just to reiterate... the only thing I questioned was the claim to have fought thousands of matches all across Korea for so many years without ever losing. It just doesn't stand to reason. Surely somebody, somewhere, would have beaten him at least once.
As a side note, keep in mind that that's how Master Steve Seo translated GM's words. Notice in the "midday comments" it seems to be less of going around and "fighting everyone" to going around and training to see who's training is harder or whatever. I'll bet the context differs in the various cases. I would imagine he visited lots of schools to train (you don't lost at training :D ), maybe did some friendly sparring (again, hard to "lose" low level sparring) and probably some more serious "fights". Who knows... the impression I got was more along the lines that he had trained with a lot of people and believes his skills/training/background is as good as any out there... not so much as a claim to have beaten everyone and being better than everyone. That's my take.

[nj_howard]

As a side note, keep in mind that that's how Master Steve Seo translated GM's words. Notice in the "midday comments" it seems to be less of going around and "fighting everyone" to going around and training to see who's training is harder or whatever.
:confused:

Thomas, now I'm confused... the claim that I quoted came from the midday comments that you transcribed (please see post #52 above). Perhaps you're referring to another post?

As for the translation, Steve Seo (I'm inferring it's the same Steve Seo) has posted on this forum, and his English appears to be excellent. On that basis, I have to doubt that he mis-translated any of GM Seo's remarks - unless he has limited proficiency in Korean. Not having met the gentleman, I have no idea how good his Korean is. But I suspect it's pretty good.

[Thomas]

:confused:

Thomas, now I'm confused... the claim that I quoted came from the midday comments that you transcribed (please see post #52 above). Perhaps you're referring to another post?

In that section, the first part :
So for the period of 1965 to 1975 when he was in his prime, he actually practiced 3,000 spin kicks a day and also went all across Korea looking for people to spar with and have fighting matches with. This was Hapkido, Taekwondo, Yudo, Wrestling and all sorts of different types of martial arts and he could have 2-3 matches a day for a 10 year period and he never lost.
seems to be clarified/softened with the second notation:
So as GM has said before, he trained very hard in the 60s and 70s and he went all across Korea looking for people better than him. What he found was that he was training as hard or better than anyone else so by the 70s the level of intensity went down a bit. He said he could have been a lot better but he's lazier now in his 60s. He's hoping some one of you will train harder and be better than he is. You can watch him and learn from his techniques and make them better. You can make our organization better.
Again, to me, it sounds like he visited a lot of schools, trained with various people/styles, had some friendly sparring matches and/or more serious matches and never met anyone that trained significantly harder, or got "beat up". That's how I read it.








As for the translation, Steve Seo (I'm inferring it's the same Steve Seo) has posted on this forum, and his English appears to be excellent. On that basis, I have to doubt that he mis-translated any of GM Seo's remarks - unless he has limited proficiency in Korean. Not having met the gentleman, I have no idea how good his Korean is. But I suspect it's pretty good.
Yep, just keep in mind that simultaneous translation, no matter how fluent you are, is difficult. It's not so much I am saying he "mis-translated" but converting one language into another while trying to maintain a quick flow, accuracy, and stay true to the sentiments is really hard. That's whay I say "take it with a grain of salt", without a transcription of what GM Seo actualy said, it's hard to determine how exact the on-the-spot simulataneous translation is.

[seo727]

I don't have the video that this transcription is coming from but I was the one that translated Grandmaster's words.

"This was Hapkido, Taekwondo, Yudo, Wrestling and all sorts of different types of martial arts and he could have 2-3 matches a day for a 10 year period and he never lost. "

I believe the appropriate translation for GM words is "GM Seo fought up to 2-3 matches a day". Grandmaster Seo has not told me nor have I ever heard that he's stated that he fought 2-3 times a day continuously for 10 years. I agree that such a statement would seem extraordinary. As I said, I don't have the video but any incorrect translation would fall on my shoulders and I take responsibility. GM Seo's words were not scripted so I was translating on the fly and may have missed subtle differences.

In terms of his fighting proficiency and record, there were no documented "records" or tracking for the time in question. However, I have spoken to several masters and others who have had first hand accounts of watching GM Seo in actual combat situations within dojangs and on the street. These individuals include GM In Hyuk Suh, Master Choon Ok Harmon, Master Barry Harmon, Master Choon Duk Lee and many others in Korea who have related the specific incident and the outcomes of various encounters. Each time, as it was related to me, GM Seo easily won. There has never been an individual who has claimed to have beaten GM Seo in an actual combat situation. As to GM Seo's fighting reputation, I have met many masters and each master that has actual seen GM Seo's abilities have confirmed his fighting ability. Again, these are not documented accounts but I am relating to you my experience.


Steve Seo

[Thomas]

Thank you Master Seo, I can appreciate the difficulty of simultaneous translation on-the-fly and was very impressed by the excellent job you did at the speaking sessions at the seminars. Again, I have to say that the difficulty in the translation (simultaneous), combined with the poorer sound quality (seminar recording) and my own transcription can all add in to make it a better idea to look at the statements with a bit more flexibility than trying to take them as an exact word-for-word statement.

Thanks for your clarifications!

[Thomas]

Anyone heard any update on GM In Sun Seo's book yet?

[samurang]

Tomas,

We got the book during our Korea trip. A nice book, but it´s in korean.
It shows teqnic and forms from white to 5 Dan. But It doesent hold the same amount of teq from 1-5 Dan as DR Hee Young-Kimms Kuk Sool does.

But It´s half the price=). So for everybody belonging to The WKF it´s a must.

Kind regards/Pierre

[Bruce W Sims]

As just a side note to the discussion:

Over on BUDOSEEK there was a similar discussion and I remember some very interesting information about the Brothers Suh/Seo given by one "JC Webster". What I found most interesting was the information that SEO In Sun was reportedly the person who actually trained with CHOI Yong Sul while brother SUH In Hyuk seemes to have trained more with the Chinese traditions in Pusan. Webster went on to comment that the brothers apparently got together and "compared notes", traded techniques and so forth. Is anyone familiar with this information or this individual? Thoughts?

See: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3915&page=3

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[JimH]

According to a seminar with In Sun Seo:
In 1953 Tang Soo Do and Kungfu were the prevelent arts in Korea.
In Hyuk Suh began training in Kungfu in 1953.
In Sun Seo began to train with Choi in ,I believe he said ,1955.
In Sun Seo was a Full time student of Choi.
In Hyuk Suh was a PRIVATE Student of Choi.
(this is where In Hyuk Suh and Jo Bang Lee crossed paths)

In 1957 the first use of the Term Hapkido was used.
In 1958 In Sun Seo got his first degree Black Belt.
In 1958 Kuk Sool Won is formed.
In 1959 Ji Han Jae opens his first school.
March 1959 in Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo open their first school.
1961 In Sun Seo gets his 3rd degree Black Belt
1965 In Sun Seo is a Kuk sool won Instructor
1969 In Sun seo is a Kuk sool won chief /master Instructor.

In Hyuk Suh was also a student of Kim Moo Hong.
Kim Moo Hong was an early student of Choi and was the one said to have learned the Chinese styled Kicks,which he then taught to Ji Han Jae.
Kim Moo Hong was also a teacher under In Hyuk Suh in Kuk Sool Won and was promoted to 4th Degree in Kuk sool won by In Hyuk Suh.

Kim Moo Hong seems to be a very influential part of the growth and expansion of Hapkido,Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo.

Gm In Sun Seo's son is a member of this forum and can perhaps shed light on the early history of his Father and Uncle.

[Bruce W Sims]

According to a seminar with In Sun Seo:
In 1953 Tang Soo Do and Kungfu were the prevelent arts in Korea.
In Hyuk Suh began training in Kungfu in 1953.
In Sun Seo began to train with Choi in ,I believe he said ,1955.
In Sun Seo was a Full time student of Choi.
In Hyuk Suh was a PRIVATE Student of Choi.
(this is where In Hyuk Suh and Jo Bang Lee crossed paths)
(etc etc etc---- clipped for economy)



Thanks, Jim:

For myself, when I look at my own background, I have A teacher. I acknowlege that teacher and that teacher acknowleges me and thats pretty much the end of the story. Convoluted histories with people crossing and recrossing pathes with other folks, "private lessons", mixing and matching of curriculum, etc., sets-off red lights and sirens in the back of my brain. To me its pretty simple. If SEO In Sun (&/or his brother) learned his material from Choi then why not just represent what one is doing as Hapkido and spare us all the convolutions? Again, in my own case, my teacher uses a MU-DO approach to his curriculum including mini-stick, small stick, Cane, sword, Staff and knife. The result is YON MU KWAN Hapkido and the foundation for the World Hapkido Federation. It matters to me not at all if CHOI Yong Sul did it this way, or if any other teachers do it this way or what anyone else thinks of it. I guess I would have expected the SEO/SUH brothers to have been made of "sterner stuff" than that, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Thomas]

Thanks, Jim:

For myself, when I look at my own background, I have A teacher. I acknowlege that teacher and that teacher acknowleges me and thats pretty much the end of the story. Convoluted histories with people crossing and recrossing pathes with other folks, "private lessons", mixing and matching of curriculum, etc., sets-off red lights and sirens in the back of my brain. To me its pretty simple. If SEO In Sun (&/or his brother) learned his material from Choi then why not just represent what one is doing as Hapkido and spare us all the convolutions? Again, in my own case, my teacher uses a MU-DO approach to his curriculum including mini-stick, small stick, Cane, sword, Staff and knife. The result is YON MU KWAN Hapkido and the foundation for the World Hapkido Federation. It matters to me not at all if CHOI Yong Sul did it this way, or if any other teachers do it this way or what anyone else thinks of it. I guess I would have expected the SEO/SUH brothers to have been made of "sterner stuff" than that, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Many, many HKD masters and Grandmasters have been known to play it pretty liberally with the "history" and whatnot, especially in the 50s through 80s. Your teacher published a lot of "convolutions" himself. I don't think GM In Sun Seo made of any less "sterner stuff" than GM Myung Kwang Shik or anyone else.

I think what is nice is that what GM In Sun Seo does now is present what he does as Hapkido, while recognizing the impact of the KSW years on what he does. A look at his websites and at transcripts of his comments at seminars will show this pretty clearly. At least he is taking the time to clear up some of the cloudier things presented in the past, something that others haven't chosen to do yet, including your own teacher.

[Bruce W Sims]

Many, many HKD masters and Grandmasters have been known to play it pretty liberally with the "history" and whatnot, especially in the 50s through 80s. Your teacher published a lot of "convolutions" himself. I don't think GM In Sun Seo made of any less "sterner stuff" than GM Myung Kwang Shik or anyone else.

I think what is nice is that what GM In Sun Seo does now is present what he does as Hapkido, while recognizing the impact of the KSW years on what he does. A look at his websites and at transcripts of his comments at seminars will show this pretty clearly. At least he is taking the time to clear up some of the cloudier things presented in the past, something that others haven't chosen to do yet, including your own teacher.

You're right, Thomas, and I hope noone thinks that I give even my own teacher a "by" on these grounds. As far as I can tell there was no real reason to have done so much of the fabricating and contriving as was done. Ultimately, I can't even say that it really benefitted anyone and probably hurt the promotion of the KMA overall. To his credit, I think SEO In Sun, has turned a very important page with his recent organizational efforts. He seems to be rallying people to a cause that others have ignored; that of the more independent practitioner.

I think one piece that I would like to see him (Seo) address are those "independents" who are interested in furthering their practice and developing their careers in some accountable way. For instance, I know that both the KIDOHAE and the KHF have "master's programs" for people who want to take their practice to another level. Such programs assure that people above a given rank have some uniformity of information and material upon which to build their own careers and to teach others. I see these as different people from folks who, say, just enjoy being in a MA atmosphere and want to learn to handle themselves if an S-D situation occurs. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Thomas]

Tomas,

We got the book during our Korea trip. A nice book, but it´s in korean.
It shows teqnic and forms from white to 5 Dan. But It doesent hold the same amount of teq from 1-5 Dan as DR Hee Young-Kimms Kuk Sool does.

But It´s half the price=). So for everybody belonging to The WKF it´s a must.

Kind regards/Pierre

Woo-hoooooo I just got my book and I really like it. I wish there was an English translation of the history section, from what I read, it's good!

I did a review - here (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79298).