authenticity

[Living_symbiote]

okay i am now looking into a gym that resides about 30 minuttes away from me that teaches pencak silat mande muda, and after a current conversation that I just had with a well-respected and valued member that goes there, that happens to be on here, well... Im kind of dubious of the gyms authenticity. How do you test a silat gym for its authenticity?? I mean, in a muay thai gym if you want to test the gym's authenticity, all you have to do is get in the ring with a muay thai fighter, or just let alone, hold up a thai pad, and feel the force of him kicking the MESS out of it. Silat is such a complex system that involves not only the external but the internal as well. How can you measurethat of the particular gym you are at??

I am taking mt, and wanted to complement it by taking this pencak silat mande muda, as well as with fma. But now I'm starting to think about jkd instead of silat...
Any suggestions?

[Ular Sawa]

If it's Mande Muda, I would wonder about the teacher's connection to the Suwanda family and inquire. The Bobster might be able to help as he is quite a knowlegible guy. Seeing how they move around would give you a definite clue. The difference between Silat and MT is that Silat systems encompass a lot of variety as opposed to something like MT. Think of "Silat" as a generic term like "Karate" with a myriad of styles that fall under that category. If you watch them move and they look like JKD (not that there's anything wrong with JKD :D), I'd avoid it.....

[Gajah Silat]

As the Pythonman says, it's difficult as Silat is so varied...... :confused: however....

Most Silat has Langkah (literally stepping!) and this is the base in all senses.

Triangles or triangular stepping, throwing etc.....we all love triangles, can't get enough of them. A triangle always seeks stability an' all that :)

I would also be wary of high kicks. Most Silat styles will rarely kick above the waist. We also tend to prefer the heel for our kicks...

Other than that, if its specifically Mande Muda that you want to check up on, I'm sure there are some on the forum who could elucidate. Will probably be better to send a private message when you find out rather than open a can of 'authenticity' worms ;)

[Monyet Nakal]

First thing that I would do is go here (http://www.suwandaacademy.com/instructors.html) and see if the Mande Muda instructor at your gym is on the list. If he's not then it doesn't necessarily mean that he's not authentic but it would lead me to start asking some more questions. Who did he study under? For how long? I'm not sure if the Suwanda family gave its instructors actual certificates (although there are definitely folks on this forum who would know for sure) but it wouldn't hurt to ask to see his.

As for the difference between MT and the different pentjak silat styles I would say that a good general difference is that MT is, at its core, a striking and kicking art, whereas a pentjak silat system will general incorporate all ranges and techniques in its art. Striking, kicking, upright-grappling, groundwork, weapons, etc. There are advantages to an art that just focuses on a couple of things but if you are looking for a system that will make you look at things from a muliple of dimensions than I would give silat a try.

[Gajah Silat]

TBH if you've got an authentic MM teacher in your town it'd be rude not to :eek: You have a great opportunity.

As for JKD & FMA, yes, you will find silat similarities in both, even Muay Boran too.

All I can say is Silat was something of a revelation for me, or as some would say 'a lightbulb moment' :D

We do stuff differently and that's what makes us so unpredictable :love:

[Living_symbiote]

There are two instructors that teach mande muda there, or have studied under it, under the teacher by the name of Dan Inosanto, i think thats how its spelled. It didnt say how long though.

But can you describe some of the differences between jkd and silat, and what type of standards youshould haveto be good at each of them.( like for instance a shorter guy may want to take up judo because he is shorter to the ground and provides good leverage, or a big bulky guy would be good at jujitsu cause of his strenght, and a flexible and balanceble acrobatic-type guy would be good at capoeira)

[taoizt]

One thing that you could do when you're an experienced thai-boxer is to get into 'the ring' with the silat teacher and see if he can handle the hard lowkicks (or elbows and knees) of thaiboxing, and I don't mean in a thaibox kind of way :) Ok, perhaps thats not exactly the same as 'proving authenticity', but nevertheless could point you to some hardcore authentic silat. One problem though is that a lot of silat teachers are perhaps not very willing of squaring off with an experienced thaiboxer.... Well I guess people used to do it like that in the old days...todays too much theory :(

[Wali]

under the teacher by the name of Dan Inosanto, i think thats how its spelled. It didnt say how long though.

)

Dan Inosanto? Never heard of him... is he a well known instructor? ;-)

[Gajah Silat]

Ahem, Symbiote, maybe a quick google might shed some light on this Dan Inosanto guy :confused: :D

[tim_stl]

living_symbiote:

what makes you dubious of the authenticity? i'm certain this gym is very open and honest with its history and relationships. all you need to do is ask. if you think silat may appeal to you, go watch or participate in a class. i'm certain there will be no charge. if your intention is to gain merit from training leading to jagabaya ranking within the mande muda system under ibu rita, ask a silat practicioner at the gym about their connection to the mande muda organization. if your intention is to determine whether others in the maphilindo/mande muda community feel what is taught is 'authentic,' give the name of the gym and/or instructors here and ask for opinions, check other forums as well, or even try an e-mail to the suwanda academy or inosanto academy websites.

as for the differences between jkd and silat (mande muda/maphilindo style), the primary differences seem to be that jkd focuses on being offensive, while silat focuses on being defensive. as such, the general tactic of jkd is to strike, while the general tactic of silat is to throw or break.



tim

[Living_symbiote]

okay, tim I dont know if you remembered me or not, but do you feel that the apex training center is authentic, you would know because you go there. I take up mt, and wanna take up jkd, mande muda,and fma, too. but somebody basically told me that I was moving too fast and shouldnt take on that many arts at the same time, But I do with all my heart, so I can become a warrior. (I know it may sound naive, but Im just being genuine to how I feel)I wanna be secure, and be a great fighter, so Im thinking fighting skill will give me the courage to live out my ambitions, and take charge of things, and be more bold, so that way I can have a more fufilling life, you must understand my whole life depends on this training , so I take it seriously. Thank you all for your help.
God's Blessings

[tim_stl]

okay, tim I dont know if you remembered me or not, but do you feel that the apex training center is authentic, you would know because you go there. I take up mt, and wanna take up jkd, mande muda,and fma, too. but somebody basically told me that I was moving too fast and shouldnt take on that many arts at the same time, But I do with all my heart, so I can become a warrior. (I know it may sound naive, but Im just being genuine to how I feel)I wanna be secure, and be a great fighter, so Im thinking fighting skill will give me the courage to live out my ambitions, and take charge of things, and be more bold, so that way I can have a more fufilling life, you must understand my whole life depends on this training , so I take it seriously. Thank you all for your help.

my opinion of apex is obviously biased, which is why i suggested that you inquire elsewhere. my opinion is that the silat taught at apex is 'authentic.' i can tell you our history with herman suwanda, i've seen and felt his silat, and i feel that what is offered is true to his teachings. you'll not find st. louis instructors on the suwanda academy website, as the silat program at apex has not been affiliated with mande muda international or the suwanda academy since pak herman's death. as for maphilindo, you will find a st. louis instructor on the inosanto academy website. guro inosanto comes to st. louis every year in july for a four-day training camp, which should speak to 'authenticity' concerns of the maphilindo silat taught at apex.

that said, i don't think authenticity is your primary concern. you're looking for confidence in the arts to enable your personality growth. confidence in the arts will come with training. watch a class, meet the people you'll be training with and training under. this will tell you more about how you feel about the arts and the training than any statement of authenticity will.

as far as cross-training, it depends on the individual. some thrive on cross training, some don't. you have to find what's best for you. when you're just starting it's good to sample everything to see what jumps out at you. maybe you continue with the ones you like, maybe you focus on one. see what works for you.



tim

[Pekir]

I take up mt, and wanna take up jkd, mande muda,and fma, too. but somebody basically told me that I was moving too fast and shouldnt take on that many arts at the same time, But I do with all my heart, so I can become a warrior. ....... you must understand my whole life depends on this training , so I take it seriously. Thank you all for your help.
God's Blessings

Hi,

Mastering one martial art takes a lifetime, at least if you want te get up to the higher/highest levels of skill. Starting out with three of them, IMHO, is almost impossible. Training for one takes preferably a few hours per day and if you do so it probably helps you progress way faster than the student that trains two times a week. MA are not about the techniques and knowing how to 'perform' these, it is about dealing with and the effective use of the techniques in more or less 'threatening' situations.

I can't dance but if someone would teach me the steps of any classic dance I would probably be able to copy every single step. If my dance teacher never had me practice with music I'd better not be the first one to step on the dancefloor......

I have no reason to doubt your seriousness, my advise would be to direct your energy to its most effective use. Confidence is not a matter of compiling the different MA and be average but being (over)proficient in one.

Just my modest opinion, good luck with your search..

Pekir

[Narrue]

If you wanted to establish if a wine is a good wine of not would you track down where all the ingredients came from and what farm the grapes came from, how long it took etc etc or would you just taste it and see if it tastes good or not.

Today you can get a certificate for anything you like if you know who to ask so papers are not everything. If you know who to ask you can even have the title of pendekar.

You should just go to a class and ask if it’s ok just to watch the class, most reasonable instructors will not object to this. People have the ability to recognize skill when they see it regardless of its origin. If you observe a professional dancer you can see that they know something by the way they move, you don’t know the name given to the steps or even the name of the music being played but you still can tell if they are good or not.

First go and observe how the teacher moves then if you see skill then you can ask about his authenticity. If he moves like a crippled cat then you don’t even need to ask any more questions :D

[taoizt]

Hmm I don't totally agrree with you Narrue...if I look at myself and look back at what I thought was good movement in the beginning (flashy kicks, beautiful intricate movements, long, intense kata's) and what I think about good movement now (efficient movement, small movements with big effect, timing etc..) it is different. And by many peoples opinion I was practicing a relatively original and traditional system in the past. By now I think different, am happy to learnt a great deal from the previous style but now know that authenticity lies in its efficacy...old martial arts, especially silat, lies in it's combat application, it's a killer art, not meant to be a sport or even self-defence type of system, but more of a self-offence system :)
So try out that fierce thai-lowkick and see what type of solution they have :)

[BGile]

Injuries have a way of getting to older folk, but they still can teach. I believe you need to look at the students more than the old crippled up owner. LOL

Silat is a killing art that is for sure. When you are dealing with knives and daggers and swords, pretty hard not to be. Quite a few schools train in the empty hand first, then the weapons. Where some are just the opposite.
I think to many schools are teaching weapons first because of tradition.

It was necessary to teach weapons first, if you have a weapon and know how to use it, you are pretty deadly if you are 12 or 40. But empty handed you need some age on you to be skilled.

In a civil world teaching knives and swords offends many parents, so Silat is a hard sell. But it should still be taught at some point in time, after all it is the arts history.

Regards, Gary

[Living_symbiote]

Thank you all, for putting in your thoughts and very helpful opinions , you see thats why I love this site, its a site about genuine philosophy and arts for genuine people. I love you guys!!! Thanks and god bless :D