Question about starting a school?

[hybrid_TKD]

Here are my questions and they all relate to starting a WTF school here in the United States?

1. What Dan level do you have to be at to teach?

2. How do you go about promoting through Kukkiwon?

3. Can you promote to your Dan level or one step below?
(ex. 1st Dan promoting someone to 1st Dan) ( or 2nd Dan Only being able to promote to 1st Dan)

4. If you have to be a certin Dan level (above 1st) can you have another master perform the promotion tests for your students?

[flyingblackbelt]

i wouldnt open up the school until youre at least fourth dan. You can promote up to on dan below you, except for 9th degrees who can obviously promote people to 9th degree, and thats a good amount of leeway to be able to bring people to. I wouldnt want to have someone come and run the promotions, it makes you look like less of the head of the school and may turn customers off.

[Kof_Andy]

I say 4th dan as very minimum. Cause unless your 4th dan you cant run your own black belt test, and that would suck for your student. Hiring other people to help with promotion is highly over charged, even if you can get someone is just too unprofessional. Getting other masters to test your student while you are training them differently is not wise. Opinion various from instructor to instructor, we all have different standards. Other schools black belt level might only mean blue to me, see where Im going? You can only get kukiwon degree if your instructor is also under that federation.

[neryo_tkd]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Kof_Andy
[B]
Cause unless your 4th dan you cant run your own black belt test,
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well, here is one more difference in TKD between our countries. of course there are rules that have to be adhered to, and these rules are passed on to the schools from TKD headquarters of the country. so u should ask around and find true info. it is my understanding that in UK and USA there are different associations and federations, which is not the case here, where the vast majority of schools belong to WTF. there are no associations or federations in between.
for example, my instructor is 4th dan, soon to be 5th. but he can't promote a black belt. no one in the country can for that matter. my instructor is in charge of colored belt testing but a korean master, who comes 2 or three times a year, of black belt testing. all candidates for the black belt go to the city in which the testing will be held. there is a commission, the chairman of which is of course that korean master. other members of the commission are people from the country (no other foreigners), but people with high dan ranking. when u test for the 1st dan, the audience can be present, but for every other dan testing, only people with a higher dan ranking than the one tested. and of course we all get kukkiwon certificates and ID cards.

[Tosh]

Slighty different fot the ITF but I still do not agree in people being able to grade up to one belt below!

Just because you passed that grade does not mean you can judge others ability on it. Most ITF affiliates require 4th Dan - International Instructor (note how this is changing, you will not be automatically recognised International Instructor in the near future!) in order to grade to black belt.

We in the UKTA run regular "Instructors Course" and Instructors can grade up to depending on thier "Class".

For example, I (a C class Instructor) can grade my own students up to Green Belt, A B class to Blue Belt and an A Class to Red belt.

That way I send student to area gradings and/or black belt gradings as appropraite. Also (usually) in order to move up the Dan grades the Instructor qualifications are a requirement.

E.g 1st to 2nd = C class
2nd to 3rd = B class
3rd to 4th = A class

But this is one of the pluses of being in an association. I can send my students to grade knowing they will be graded completely objectively. That way I HAVE to train them to a high standard.

Hope that was interesting :D

I know it's a little unhelpful with regards to WTF but do you guys not have a similar system?

Are there instructor courses/"classes" for WTF Dan grades??

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Tosh

Are there instructor courses/"classes" for WTF Dan grades?? [/B]
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of course there are. i personally think they are very important. if some people think that the moment they start teaching their training stops, they couldn't be more wrong.
when teaching, it is not important just to enter a classroom or the dojo (i teach in both), and say few things and leave. quality is what matters. so what i am trying to point out is that working on urself can't be neglected.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by neryo_tkd
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of course there are.

I was looking for slighty more infomration than that ;)

Is there a hierachy?
Are Dan grades required to sit them?
What are restriction for teaching/grading?

Questions questions! :D

[captainmoomoo]

In the WTF, you can only promote someone to 1st Dan if you are a 4th Dan or above. As to up to which Dan level you can promote them, I'm not sure of that at the moment.

The group that I am with, allows instructors below 4th Dan to promote up to 1st Kup, and then the senior guys take over.

[Artikon]

Okay Hyrbid I'll try to answer your questions in addition to the other answeres you've recieved

1) Tough one, I'm 2nd Dan and I teach, but the school is not mine and I'm an apprentice. If you are doing it on your own I would only teach when you feel you have an understanding of the material, enough experience to develop a curriculm that's effective and interesting, and the ability and patience to pass on what you know. If you want to put a Dan rank on it 4th is usually a good one, but even then I know some 4th dans who are not good instructors, great practisioners but not teachers.

2) If you want to go through Kukkiwon you must be a 4th dan to do color belt testing. As well 4th dan allows you to set up a Dan testing account through the KKW. This is from anywhere in the world too might I add Neryo. If you instructor wished to set up an account at 4th dan He/She could do so and could test students for Black belts up to and including 3rd dan. (I'll double check this against the KKW textbook) Having an outside instructor do the exam is usually a stipulation by the NGB. I'm not sure how it in your country, but we go through our province and then country and then KKW for the benifits of Tourneys and Seminars, although we really don't have to but that would void some of our benifits. It works well as long as you don't mind some political stuff.

3) See above :)

4) Yes, in the organization I am apart of we have many school owners who are 3rd dan. When I started my instructor was only a 3rd dan in TKD (however 36 years of martial arts experience mostly in Hapkido at the time) This didn't allow him to test his own color belts. The way around this was to invite another 4th dan collegue to come in and witness the exam. When it came to BB testing our PGB has a stipulation that another 4th dan must sign off the applicants before they can go to a province wide graduation ceremony. The Grad ceremony is witnessed by our senior instructor in the province and he then signs off the application before they go to KKW. . . so to answer your question . . . Yes :)

Hope that helps along with other peoples answers

[Bulldog]

I believe that everything that has been posted is correct with WTF.

1. You must be 4th Dan to promote a black belt.
2. You must be a certified WTF Black Belt to teach under the WTF, I'm still getting conflicting reports, but you can check the WTF official website for further info.

There are a few organizations, masters, founders, soke/head of family that oversea all black belt promotions. Many do not have a problem with 1st Dan teaching, but, many if not most require that Dan to remain studying under them directly.

Personally, I think that maturity is the biggest factor. The downside to TKD sometimes is that I run into a 22 year old who is a 4th degree and they do not possess the ability to teach. If that even makes sense.

If it is important for the instructor to be certified through WTF, the best advice I could give is to contact the nearest WTF certified instructor.

Thank you,

Aaron

http://www.ourchurch.com/member/o/oma

[neryo_tkd]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Artikon
[B]
As well 4th dan allows you to set up a Dan testing account through the KKW. This is from anywhere in the world too might I add Neryo. If you instructor wished to set up an account at 4th dan He/She could do so and could test students for Black belts up to and including 3rd dan.
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well...ok...but i am just telling u the way it is in Croatia and B&H. I'll ask around what the situation is like in other neighbouring countries.
No instructor in Croatia or B&H will set up a black belt testing. that's the way things are done. it's decided in the tkd headquarters of these countries. i have a friend in slovenia who trains tkd, so i'll ask her about their black belt testing. this really got curious me now.
my instructor is 4th dan. in croatia there are people with much higher black belt ranking but nobody sets up the black belt testing. nobody! the korean master does that.

[Artikon]

Neryo, that's probably just the way it works in Croatia, and there is nothing wrong with that. On paper I'm tested by someone who is not my direct instructor although my master could promote me himself, but for many reasons decides against doing this. I'm sure there are many countries and bodies in the world that do this. Like I said before the benifits of doing that probably out weigh what can be gained from being a singular entity through the KKW.

:cool:

[Thomas]

This is what I read, as enacted in 1972 and amended 1974, 1975, 1982, 1983, 1986, and 1992 as per regulations of the Kukkiwon and WTF. (Granted, this info is 10 years old and may have been changed.)

Article 6 Composition – “In order to carry out the aforesaid (Dan) tests, member National Associations will establish the following organization. (in chart form: Ordinary test for up to and including 5th dan –qualification of the tester is 6th dan or higher. For testing people 6th dan and above, the tester must be 7th dan or higher.) Any member National Association which does not have, among its members, official Kukkiwon 6th dan or higher dan holders, should obtain approval from Kukkiwon to carry out testing.”

Article 15 Discretional Authority of the President - “Despite the present regulations, the President of the Kukkiwon may exercise his discretional authority in dealing with promotion tests in accordance with the decision of the Kukkiwon promotion test committee.”

Article 20 Geup Promotion Tests – “The instructor who holds 4th dan or higher dan has a right to test for the Geup promotions and issue the Geup certificates in his name for his students. By-laws for Geup promotion tests will be made up separately.”

Taken from Kim Jeong-Rok, Tae Kwon Do Textbook, Vol. III, (Seolim Publishing Co: Seoul) in English and Korean, 1994, pp. 367-369



I don’t think it is always enforced this way and I think individual schools have a lot of leeway, depending on situation. For example, my master is 4th dan, and the highest ranking WTF black belt in the area. He issues Geup certificates in his own name, based on the recommendation of our school black belt board. For dan tests, he invites in several black belts and they as a group recommend a person for promotion. The application is sent in to our grandmaster, who reviews it and issues the dan certificates in his name and the name of our master. It depends on where you are.

For rule of thumb, based on my personal experience, , you can promote people in your name to Geup ranks if you are 4th dan or higher and can promote to dan grades if you are 6th dan or higher. Granted, you may serve on promotion boards and recommend promotion at any dan grade.

[Artikon]

Thanks for the info Thomas, I know there's another KKW textbook coming out so I'll cross check that with the revised book, but probably won't change. Just gotta wait until I can a track one down in this area.

[tkderf]

I believe Thomas got it. I don't know in your country, but here (Quebec), only 1 person can give a black belt and he is 9th degree, and it is approved by the Kukkiwon and WTF. I don't believe Kukkiwon would approve a black belt given by a fourth dan. And personally, i totally agree with this method, it decrease the chances of corruption amoung the TKD sport.

Regards,

[Bulldog]

This link should explain it all...at least stateside...

Thanks,

OMA


http://members.tripod.com/~sabecker/truth_about_world_taekwondo_fede.htm

[Yang, Dae-han]

I've sent Kukkiwon a question that pertains to your situation....as I am unsure of differing standards among nations. If I do not get an answer in the next few days, I shall ring them....but someone ought to buy me a drink for that call!

Cuba Libre, please.

Cheers,

DH

[blessed_samurai]

Wow, I'm not associated with the WTF, but that seems like a huge ordeal to get tested for 1st dan. By the way, isn't it kinda pricey for KKW testing fees?

I would have to concur with the others on being a 4th dan to start a school. It just looks better when others come to check out your school; those with no ma experience look upon the stripes of the belt as a better, more knowledgable instructor...kinda like gettin more bang for their buck.

[basf12]

in malaysia to become a qualified instructor u must have at least a 4th dan kukiwon blackbelt and have attained instructor courses and also national sports level coach . u must also have first aid certificate and a diploma or degree in any field before u become a qualified head instructor . this is just a thought from malaysia

[Din]

continuing on what my friend basf12 said above.
- here in malaysia the examiners are elected by the Malaysian Taekwondo Association's Board of Examiners and are all 6th dan and above. They are allowed to promote BB till one grade below them ( ie. 6th dan can only promote up to 5th dan).
- here an examiner is not allowed to grade his own students so another examiner will be called in. As for BB promotions of 2th dan and above we are required to attend a centralized exam held twice a year.
- if you mean teaching as an assistant instructor then i say 2nd ... i started teaching when i was 1st dan ... but as a head instructor you should be at least a 4th dan with adequate experience and good teaching ability.. not every one is good at teaching.

[basf12]

who are u din i know u from malaysia but dont call me your friend

[BridgeTKD]

Like Artikon, Im not a 4th DAN

I am a 1st Dan, testing for second in a month or so. I teach my own class under the supervision of an 8th degree. He must do the gup (colored belts) testing for me. I feel I am gaining a lot of experience doing this. I hope one day to have my own school, but that will have to wait until I reach 4th Dan.

[Yang, Dae-han]

Here are my questions and they all relate to starting a WTF school here in the United States?

1. What Dan level do you have to be at to teach?

2. How do you go about promoting through Kukkiwon?

3. Can you promote to your Dan level or one step below?
(ex. 1st Dan promoting someone to 1st Dan) ( or 2nd Dan Only being able to promote to 1st Dan)

4. If you have to be a certin Dan level (above 1st) can you have another master perform the promotion tests for your students?

Well, I got a cheeky answer from Kukkiwon via their Q&A...so I rang 'em (you owe me a beer).

Disclaimer: This was for Americans in America. I can't quite grasp the logic, but...

One - Fourth dan can teach

Two - Promotion until black belt is all up to you. Dan promotion is done by another (Kukkiwon chooses).

Three - You may only recommend, not promote, to the degree below you.

Four - (subsection of three) You are to fax KKW with the recommendation for dan promotion. They then will fax you the forms, you fill out and mail back to them with fees. You will then be told where to attend the next dan testing. (Just like in Korea)

It seems a bit hinky, but maybe things have changed.

Cheers,

DH

[NRees]

In the ITF here in the UK, You have to become an international instructor in order to grade students to ANY level. A grading examiner on a dan grading must be atleast 2 degrees higher than the student being tested. So if someone was testing for 3rd degree then grading panel must all be 5th degree and above.

[kareem]

ok its been a while since anyone has posted in this thread. but i think i will bring this thread back to life and post my two cents. i realize that many of you went by the text on this question/ issue of starting a new school and tesing for black belts.

i beleive it was hybridtkd who started this thread. well heres how i see it and it doesnt make it right but its just the way i look at it. i own a school and have since oct 2001. and we were only 2nd degrees at the time, now we did at the time have a 4th dan master who gave the black belt test, or invited other masters to give the test. thomas you are indeed right once again. heres the thing when it comes down to color belts i personally doesnt think its matters about who gives the test as long as they are black belts adults and are compable/ saying this i remember our master would never let us sit at the table to give a test.lol but lets be honest who is gonna say that your student isnt really a yellow belt cuz your not a 4th dan. and if you do decide to have black belt test i think its a great idea to invite other masters cuz lets face it you know what your students can do now let them show there abilities to others. so if your still around hybridtkd i think of you have the proper help still train and have a lot of patience, with alot of connections i think it is possible, in fact i know its possible to have a respectable school and be an owner even if your not a master yet becuz im living proof.

[Smokemare]

When I did my colour belt gradings (Started in 1992.) They were done under the TAGB area co-rdinator at the time - Mr Brian Towndrow 4th Degree (Again - at the time.)

Now there are two prominent 5th Dan instructors in our area - mine and another, they grade each others students but not their own. They both had to take an examiners course before they could do this in our organisation.

For Dan grades, it is done before a panel, consisting of several 5th and 6th Dans. Recently two 5th Dans wanted to grade up, both of them in order to accredit their rank better, did the international promotion before Master Choi Jung Wa and his panel of senior students. One of the 5th Dans promoted and went on to also grade before the PUMA panel. The other did not pass the international grading so said he would attempt to pass that next year before doing the PUMA grading. This was not mandatory as far as I know, simply the choice of the two practitioners in question, in order to ensure their rank was both earned and respected.

The highest grade in our organisation is 6th Degree Black Belts.