Hanminjok Hapkido [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

SeoulSista

01-Nov-2006, 12:49 AM

Choiyoungwoo

01-Nov-2006, 04:29 AM

Thomas

01-Nov-2006, 06:44 PM

Hey All,

What are your opinions about this style of Hapkido? Does anybody know how large it is? IMO, it seems to have the Hapkido name, but uses the KSW form of hyungs.

Also, does the World Kido Hapkido Association govern all forms of Hapkido? Or just Hanminjok?

Thanks.

As a member of the ICHF (Cheon-tu Kwan), we fall under the auspices of the Hanminjok Association as well. We can attend seminars and his schools are open to us. As an instructor (as a great many KSW and HKD people can attest to) GM In Sun Seo is amazing and it's quite an honor to be affiliated with him (and his cadre).

My impression from my experiences with the organization is that it is intended to be a large umbrella organization for the Korean Kido Arts (much like Kuk Sool was in its beginning, before it became a more formalized and uniform style). They are open to Korean arts (Kido arts, not the TKD ones) and the HMJ association provides support in the forms of seminars, schools to train at, resources like the new book coming out as well as some videos, and rank recognition.

GM In Sun Seo's background (see http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html for the English version and http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ for the Korean version or see http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=851 for some other info) was with Hapkido (1st dan from Choi Yong Sool in 1958) as well as with "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" and "Kuk Sool Hapkido". Later, of course, he held high positions with the KSW. So, it isn't a surprise that they use KSW forms (and have made some new ones too). It shouldn't be a surprise to see a lot of similarities between KSW and HKD from this either. The nice thing about an umbrella organization is that you can still keep doing what you do in your own curiculua plus you are free to add in what you like from the HMJ. It's a pretty open organization.

Check out http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ for some info. Also, take a look at http://www.kidohae.com/ especially the interview located at http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html

Part 1: Unifying Hapkido will grow it to an International Martial Art
[parts removed for brevity - see link for full text)

Q. No one will object to the statement that you are a founding father of Hapkido. When did you start?
A. I first met my teacher (Grandmaster) Choi Young Sul in 1957 and received my 1st dan in 1958. Since 1945, GM Choi Young Sul spread Hapkido but when he met Mr. Suh Bok Sup in 1953 in Daegu, he opend a dojang in the second floor of Mr. Suh’s Brewery. That was the beginning of Hapkido Dojangs in Korea. After that, the second dojang was opened and that’s where I practiced.

Q. When did you first open your school?
A. In 1961. I opened the Korea Kuk Sool Won Hapkido Dojang. During that era, Grandmaster Ji Han Jae first opened Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido in Andong prior to my school and in 1959, he opened Sung Moo Kwan Dojang in Seoul. Master Kim Moo Hong, an instructor under GM Ji, went independent in 1961 and opened a Sin Moo Kwan Hapkido Dojang. That was the start of the three branches of Hapkido that live today.

Q. Hapkido from the start had phases of division?
A. Yes, but shortly afterwards, there as an effort for unification. With GM Choi Young Sul at the center, we all agreed that “it shouldn’t be this way” formed Dae Han Kido Hae. At the time, we received permission from the Ministry of Education and GM Choi Yong Sul was elected the first chairman and Mr. Kim Kyung Dong was elected president. However, this still did not achieve unification. I think the main reason that we didn’t reach unification was due to the stubbornness of the 1st generation martial artists in Korea at that time. If all of us took a step back and worked together, it would have been possible. Instead, many of the individuals involved were young and hot blooded. In retrospect, it was very regrettable and a big opportunity we missed.

Q. There was another brief period when it appeared unification was possible. It seemed significant when Mr. Kim Woo Joong (Found of Dae Woo) appeared on the scene?
A. At the time in Seoul, Sung Moo Hapkido called itself “Dae Han Hapkido” and Sin Moo Hapkido called itself “Han Kuk Hapkido.” They united and called it “Dae Han Min Kuk Hapkido” with Mr. Kim taking part in this unification. However, at that time they couldn’t embrace Dae Han Kidohae and failed to achieve complete unification. At that time, Kim Woo Joong declared that he was going to make the combined Hapkido Organization bigger than Kukkiwon. Of course that didn’t happen.

Q. You were president of Dae Han Kidohae for a very long time. You must have a lot of memories?
A. I became president of Dae Han Kidohae in 1983. In the beginning of my tenure, one of my goals was to introduce the idea that the term “Dae Han Kuk Sool Won” would be a more appropriate term than “Hapkido” to represent the breadth of Martial Arts practiced under the Kidohae. We use the term Hapkido and Japan uses the same term (Aikido and Hapkido have the same Chinese character root) and I thought that it would be a better name for our martial arts and tried to make the change. However the government would not give permission to us for two reasons. First, the Hapkido name and branding around the name in the Korean consciousness was very strong. Second, the meaning of the words Kuk Sool Won (national Korean martial arts association) was deemed to be too generic. Therefore, I decided to support the name Hapkido instead. After that, I continued to meet with Dae Han Hapkido’s president Oh Sae Lim and Kuk Jae Hapkido’s president Myong Jae Nam to discuss unification. In the 80’s, over 80% of all Hapkido schools in Korea belonged to our three organizations. Even with these frequent meetings however, we were not able to unify Hapkido throughout my tenure as president of the Kidohae.

Q. If the 1st generation could not achiever unification, do you think it is possible now?
A. I believe it is possible. There are many Hapkido Organizations but in reality, only a few of them have significance in terms of number of schools and influence. I intend to form a kind of network/alliance with the 1st generation heads of different Hapkido organizations and styles so we can socialize and interact. Doing this will naturally help lead towards unification. Also, with the registration of Hapkido with the Korea Sports Association, we should see more of a spotlight on Hapkido in Korea and see more changes.

Q. I’m curious about the current situation of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association?
A. At this time, we have about 350 schools in Korea and many more outside of Korea. Because of the support of many Masters in our organization, both in Korea and Overseas, in the last 3 years we have grown at an incredibly rapid pace. Going forward, I’m going to work harder to continue to give back positively to Hapkido. Keep your eyes open as Hanmijok Hapkido Association becomes the best Hapkido organization!

Q. Any plans for your organization soon?
A. This coming April 15-16, we will be hosting an International Hapkido Compeition with over 20 nations participating. Not just with talk but with action, we are striving to be a positive example for other organizations through the various events and programs we are a part of.

Q. Can Hapkido achieve the international success that Tae Kwon Do has?
A. Of course! Many people say that Hapkido self defense techniques are superior to and more complete than modern “sport oriented” Tae Kwon Do. This is very apparent by how many martial artists of other styles seek to learn Hapkido and earn Hapkido Dans. The reason why such a great art like Hapkido doesn’t grow more is because it is not united. It is important to achieve unification soon, preserve the techniques, and improve on them and announce to the world “this is Hapkido.” If that is done, we can grow as big as Tae Kwon Do. I would also like to take this opportunity to once again express that it is very important that Hapkido unfies soon and that all Hapkido practitioners should take this to heart.

Choiyoungwoo

01-Nov-2006, 07:42 PM

As a member of the ICHF (Cheon-tu Kwan), we fall under the auspices of the Hanminjok Association as well.

How exactly does that work? and why?
what benefits does hmj provide to ichf?
what does hmj offer to ichf that it doesn't already have?
just curious

JimH

01-Nov-2006, 09:25 PM

In Hyuk Suh took over the Kido,the Korean Governing body of Korean Arts and then Gave the leadership role to In Sun Seo,his brother.

In Sun Seo was the Head of the Kido and in 1986,as head of the KIDO, he formed World Kido Federation which was set up in the US to be in control of all Korean Martial arts OUTSIDE of Korea.

A couple of Years ago a coup took place and In Sun Seo was replaced by his brother as the head of the Kido.

In Sun Seo was still in charge of the World Kido Federation and was in charge of all Korean arts outside of Korea.

Hanminjok is In Sun Seo's HAPKIDO,specific, Federation.

The ICHF is Under the World Kido Federation and under the Hanminjok /Hapkido side of the World Kido Federation.
The World Kido Federation governs 31 styles of Korean Martial arts outside of the US.

The World Kido Federation is still recognized as a Governing body under the Kido and Hanminjok is recognised as legitimate Organization under the World Kido Federation and under the Korean Kido.

When one asks what does the ICHF get ?

The ICHF gets a Korean 10th Dan recognized Figure head in GM In Sun Seo.
The ICHF gets a link to Korea and the Korea Kido through the World Kido Federation and through the Hanminjok Hapkido specific.
The ICHF members get a discounted availability to Dan ranking through the World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido which is the Outside representative of the Korean Kido.(so you have world recognized ranking)
ICHF members have access to training under GM In Sun seo and to travel to Korea and or attand the seminars under In Sun Seo.

SeoulSista

02-Nov-2006, 01:10 AM

Choiyoungwoo

02-Nov-2006, 02:44 AM

In Hyuk Suh took over the Kido,the Korean Governing body of Korean Arts and then Gave the leadership role to In Sun Seo,his brother.

That was a while back if I am not mistaken, correct?

In Sun Seo was the Head of the Kido and in 1986,as head of the KIDO, he formed World Kido Federation which was set up in the US to be in control of all Korean Martial arts OUTSIDE of Korea.

So Ki Do Hae is the official governing body (as a branch of the actual government) but due to the expanse of tkma outside korea the world ki do assoc was formed to "govern" TKMA outside of korea. Fine.

A couple of Years ago a coup took place and In Sun Seo was replaced by his brother as the head of the Kido.

Which brother, there are 5 suh/seo's one is a pharmacist and has little or no MA connection, In Suk Suh is dead, of the remaining 3 you can only be refering to in hyuk or in joo suh. I cautiously assume you are talking about In Joo Suh? In what way did a coup occur? why? how did in sun seo get that position wrested from him? How do you lose that position?

In Sun Seo was still in charge of the World Kido Federation and was in charge of all Korean arts outside of Korea.

Hanminjok is In Sun Seo's HAPKIDO,specific, Federation.

so it's his flavor of hkd/ksw. fine.

The ICHF is Under the World Kido Federation and under the Hanminjok /Hapkido side of the World Kido Federation.

how are those two things different? and why would it need to be under both ?

The World Kido Federation governs 31 styles of Korean Martial arts outside of the US.

that sounds exactly like the statement that has been made by ISS and IHS for the last 25+ years about Ki Do Hae and KSW both?!?

The World Kido Federation is still recognized as a Governing body under the Kido and Hanminjok is recognised as legitimate Organization under the World Kido Federation and under the Korean Kido.

who decides that? Ki Do Hae? There are many groups recognised by KiDoHae and there is more than a few that are "recognized as a Governing bodies" who decides which one is in charge of what?

where is the documentantion from the korean govt that supports these things?

When one asks what does the ICHF get ?

The ICHF gets a Korean 10th Dan recognized Figure head in GM In Sun Seo.
The ICHF gets a link to Korea and the Korea Kido through the World Kido Federation and through the Hanminjok Hapkido specific.
The ICHF members get a discounted availability to Dan ranking through the World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido which is the Outside representative of the Korean Kido.(so you have world recognized ranking)
ICHF members have access to training under GM In Sun seo and to travel to Korea and or attand the seminars under In Sun Seo.

That quite a bit of stuff!?!? exactly how does all of that help the average student? and at what added expense? you mention discount dan ranking, does a dan ranking in ICHF cost LESS under HMJ HKD that it otherwise would? Please dont take these questions as anything other than sincere, I find this fascinating!

MadMonk108

02-Nov-2006, 02:57 AM

I am thoroughly confused.

ember

02-Nov-2006, 03:23 AM

Choiyoungwoo

02-Nov-2006, 03:33 AM

The nice thing about an umbrella organization is that you can still keep doing what you do in your own curiculua plus you are free to add in what you like from the HMJ. It's a pretty open organization.

doesn't that open up hkd for a wide range of genercization, i mean it sounds like anything goes and it can be called hkd.

For instance, it is well understood that HKD does not have hyung. By adding parts of hmj hkd's hyung ( which is KSW) is it still hkd?

Where is the line drawn?? What is the definition of HKD in terms of content.
does hkd have hyung or not. if a hkd school does use hyung, is it no longer hkd?

MadMonk108

02-Nov-2006, 03:46 AM

I just knew some one was going to open the box.

Oh well...here we go!

JimH

02-Nov-2006, 02:51 PM

In Hyuk suh took over the Korean Kido to keep it alive,as no one else wanted it,Hapkido was splintering into many different organizations and federations as they followed the lead of Ji Han Jae who left the newly formed Kido in 1963.

In Hyuk Suh appointed In Sun Seo as its leader and In Hyuk Suh took it back,as he felt his brother,In Sun Seo was spending too much time with the world Kido Federation and doing seminars,with less time doing Korea Kido business.

What does being under the World Kido/Hanminjok ?
Nothing

What are the benefits ?
They have been listed

It costs members of the ICHF 25 dollars a year to be members of the ICHF,under the Hanminjok under the World Kido Federation under the Kido Hae.

The only cost to memebers is the cost of seminars with GM in Sun Seo and Dan rankings from him,from the Hanminjok,from Workd Kido Federation and as recognized as such under the Kido Hae.(As said the World Kido is responsible for Korean arts,aside from TKD outside of Korea,but is under the Kido Hae)

If one wants to read about Korea Kido Hae, to the World Kido Federation,to Hanminjok and the benefits please read the following:
http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html

Thomas

02-Nov-2006, 06:24 PM

Ah, so it is legit? That's good news.
The reason I posted the question is because I obtained a black belt in it, but I thought it was KSW because all the training and vocab was KSW. Since I live in Korea (and hardly speak the language) I didn't know there was a difference until I got my black belt certificate and it said HMJ-HKD. Only now am I realizing the variations in HKD and KSW....and it definitely raises more questions.
Basically, I'm wondering where else in the world there are other dojangs because I plan to leave Korea next year and I don't want to start at a white belt again in another form. I found HKD and KSW dojangs, but no HMJ-HKD.
What do you guys think? Better to start over or continue? So, far I love this style because of all the gymnastics and the weapons we can use. But just am not sure if this style is as reputable as KSW and the more well-known form of HKD.
I think many Hapkido schools would "honor" your rank and provide some way for you to train with them and learn/adapt to the way they do things and eventually recognize your rank and/or provide some way for future promotion. At the very least, training in Hapkido under GM In Sun Seo's organization should imply that you have developed a good foundation of the art and its principles. Adjusting to a new school or Kwan shouldn't be a big problem. I learned IHF Hapkido in Korea and then when I returned to the states took up Combat Hapkido... my HKD foundation made it pretty easy to learn the differences and such and then being ranking in Combat Hapkido. I know of a lot of other people who earned dan ranks in one federation and then switched to another. If you love Hapkido, you should be able to find a school, even if not HMJ, to continue on with practicing the art of HKD.
All the best!

Quote:
The ICHF is Under the World Kido Federation and under the Hanminjok /Hapkido side of the World Kido Federation.

how are those two things different? and why would it need to be under both ?
GM Pellegrini looks to GM In Sun Seo as his Hapkido instructor and as the background for our Hapkido side of the program (even though is different than "traditional" hapkido, the core is the same). The ICHF also has other sections (such as the ITA, IPDTI, and so on) that aren't Hapkido but still fall under our umbrella. For GM P it also provides another source of backing for his own training, development and ranking as well as opportunities for his students to follow i that way if they choose to explore more of the roots and "traditional" hapkido.

The way I understand it is that the ICHF (Cheon-Tu Kwan) falls under the Hanminjok Association (because GM In Sun Seo is GM P's instructor) and the HMJ falls under the World Kido Federation (a larger umbrella for more arts than "just" Hapkido)

The nice thing about an umbrella organization is that you can still keep doing what you do in your own curiculua plus you are free to add in what you like from the HMJ. It's a pretty open organization.

doesn't that open up hkd for a wide range of genercization, i mean it sounds like anything goes and it can be called hkd.

For instance, it is well understood that HKD does not have hyung. By adding parts of hmj hkd's hyung ( which is KSW) is it still hkd?

Where is the line drawn?? What is the definition of HKD in terms of content.
does hkd have hyung or not. if a hkd school does use hyung, is it no longer hkd?
That there is quite a question and I don't think anyone has a real answer for you. I think if you look at how Hapkido has evolved since Choi Dojunim's time, even just limiting it to the various lineages of Ji Han Jae, Myung Kwang Sik, Myung Jae Nam and the like, you have so many differences in expression of the art (although the core principles remain). Some Kwans have forms, some don't (for example, I learned hyungsae in Hapkido but most others don't). Once you get past the core priniciples and technqiues, I think there's a lot of flexibility in what is Hapkido (at least how it is defined by a lot of various people and federations).

I think what GM In Sun Seo is doing is allowing the various Kwan that he approves and allows in to dictate how they run their own curricula and structure. He provides a means of rank recognition and opportunities for training, learning and sharing without trying to dictate what each separate Kwan will learn or do. Perhaps the more open approach will be a better way to try to bring Hapkido people together.

It seems like there are a lot of people out there trying to enforce one particular way or "pure" route and that sure doesn't seem to be a good thing for unity in the Kido arts. I like to think GM In Sun Seo is onto something good.

I sure am enjoying it! :D

MadMonk108

02-Nov-2006, 06:34 PM

I wish TKD would take this route, and allow Gwan to once again re-emerge, rather than stifling individuality.

Choiyoungwoo

04-Nov-2006, 02:25 AM

Well the bottom line is....

ISS is teaching in an open environment so that virtually anyone can access the skills he offers if they are willing to pay the admittedly small fee to have access through the web of affiliation. which is fine..

IHS is teaching the same exact stuff (in principle) in WKSA, but access is limited to members only, and only allows access through strict loyality and membership requirements.

Which is better? that depends on who you ask.
They both offer a legitimate link to TKMA/KDH,
They both have a wealth of MA info and skill to offer.
They both have tremendous influence in the KMA establishment in Korea, as well as around the world.
They both are setting up a situation for thier children to inheiret thier "positions and power" in the future, (ISS has Scott, Steve & Sara deepely involved and IHS has Sung Jin & Sung Woo (Alex) heavily involved in WKSA)

What's the difference?

ISS has the ability through an open org, to influence a HUGE # of people and the business side of WKDF will have a much larger potential to profit in a relatively short period of time. Also , the freedom of open affiliation is very attractive. But, though it may exsist, there is no mandate for the sun bae/ hue bae relationship to sustain.

IHS is limited to dealing only with members of his group, but has greater potential for control over the quality of what is taught and, as a consequence, a greater potential to keep technical standards high. The loyality requirements/closed environment lends itself to appear very cult like, yet there is an emphasis for the sun bae/ hue bae relationship to sustain.

ISS's technical skill/knowledge/history I do not question. I simply don't trust him and I will not subject myself to his authority, even in areas where he is markedly more knowledgeable than I am.

SeoulSista

06-Nov-2006, 01:37 AM

Thanks for all of your information everybody. I really appreciate your input.
Hmmmm....so the question I have to ask myself is:
Do I wanna continue Hanminjok Hapkido for the next 8 months and possibly get my 2nd degree OR Should I start over in KSW and see how far I progress before I leave this crazy country. Dilemmas.

klaasb

06-Nov-2006, 07:18 AM

You seemed to like the current school enough to stay and get your 1st dan. (which took you about a year, since you are in Korea) why not just stick with this school?

Does the paper really matters that much to you?

And you call Korea a crazy country?

Choiyoungwoo

08-Nov-2006, 05:29 PM

A couple of Years ago a coup took place and In Sun Seo was replaced by his brother as the head of the Kido.

I don't beleve this is accurate, ISS was required to step down from KiDoHae for a good reason and his brother was the next best choice. There was no coup.. Again the question is WHY did ISS lose such a prestigious position? He has never been one to give up power/position/or authority. I think there is more to this that meets the eye. Yes, I am probably over skeptical, but I have seen this shell game before and there is ALWAYS more to it than what THEY tell you.

Sorry, don't mean to dwell on the negative but this doesn't add up.

hapk1do

18-May-2007, 06:18 PM

I don't beleve this is accurate, ISS was required to step down from KiDoHae for a good reason and his brother was the next best choice. There was no coup.. Again the question is WHY did ISS lose such a prestigious position? He has never been one to give up power/position/or authority. I think there is more to this that meets the eye. Yes, I am probably over skeptical, but I have seen this shell game before and there is ALWAYS more to it than what THEY tell you.

Sorry, don't mean to dwell on the negative but this doesn't add up.

All of these are nothing but rumors anyway... Among other rumors, one exists that alludes to In Sun Seo stepping down in order pursue other ventures within the Korean Martial Arts world. I would find that just as believable. Whether for profit or for progression, I really don't see why it would matter. In regards to profit, I doubt that you would pass up the opportunity to make money doing what you loved to do and, in the process, adding to the progression.

Also, you mentioned your distrust with In Sun Seo. You trust who you trust, but I would say that there are many more so called Masters out there whose credibility should be questioned long before In Sun Seo's. I think that it would be inappropriate to name names, however, due to the fact that rumors abound and that regardless of this, they should be respected for their basic contributions to their students and the art.

I would also like to note that In Sun Seo is one of the foremost respected individual Hapkido Instructors in the country of S. Korea and has played a major role in Government based martial arts programs. Attend the WKF championships and you will see what I mean when you see all of the government officials in attendance there.. Not to mention all the TKMS guys that just happen to be hangin around.. :D

JTMS

18-May-2007, 11:33 PM

I don't beleve this is accurate, ISS was required to step down from KiDoHae for a good reason and his brother was the next best choice. There was no coup.. Again the question is WHY did ISS lose such a prestigious position? He has never been one to give up power/position/or authority. I think there is more to this that meets the eye. Yes, I am probably over skeptical, but I have seen this shell game before and there is ALWAYS more to it than what THEY tell you.

Sorry, don't mean to dwell on the negative but this doesn't add up.

Hi Choiyoungwoo,

Sorry to correct you, but GM Seo's brother was not his succesor in the KidoHae. His sucessor is Grand Master Kim (current Korea Kido President). Grand Master Kim is the former student of Grand Master In Sun Seo.

Ok are you ready for the big MYSTERY? The reason why Grand Master Seo is no longer president of Kidohae? The simple and honest answer is that he lost an election (by a narrow margin).

Grand Master Seo was the Leader of Kidohae for 20 years, this is much longer than any other person in the history of the association. He turned the small government recognized org. into a huge prestigious one.

At the end of the election Grand Master Seo was offered the position of chairman of Korea Kidohae. (He won the vote for this post) Grand Master Seo turned the position of chaiman down and started the Hanminjok Hapkido Association. (it is now larger than Korea KidoHae)

I have been a follower and student of GM Seo fpr a long time now. I know for a fact that he has been blamed for things he has not said or done. He is very open and honest about the history of Kuk Sool and korean martial arts in general. (as well as his own family history).

He does not offer up the BS that many marial arts leaders give like: I got all of this from my grand father, or I am descended from the Hwa Rang, or my master hid in a mountian 'til the end of WWII.

Best wishes,

J.B. Murphy

Choiyoungwoo

19-May-2007, 05:40 AM

Sorry to correct you, but GM Seo's brother was not his succesor in the KidoHae.
Ok fair enough.
Ok are you ready for the big MYSTERY? The reason why Grand Master Seo is no longer president of Kidohae? The simple and honest answer is that he lost an election (by a narrow margin).
Grand Master Seo was the Leader of Kidohae for 20 years, this is much longer than any other person in the history of the association. He turned the small government recognized org. into a huge prestigious one.

Which makes it even more puzzling. why would such a long standing and effective leader who did such a wonderful job, have even one, much less a majority vote against him????
Wellllllll
I guess the new real question is WHY did they (whomever "they" are) vote against him and for his hue bae (junior). Clearly it is not the standard in Korean culture for a sun bae (senior) to lose a position to an hue bae (junior)

I have been a follower and student of GM Seo fpr a long time now. I know for a fact that he has been blamed for things he has not said or done. You are probably correct.

And I know that he has done unforgivable things of which he has never been held accountable.

He is very open and honest about the history of Kuk Sool and korean martial arts in general. (as well as his own family history).

Maybe so, I am sure he has no problem discrediting anyones history at this point (even his brothers), with a different, or even more accurate version of the truth. after all, they are all competitors in the same industry, right!

He does not offer up the BS that many marial arts leaders give like: I got all of this from my grand father, or I am descended from the Hwa Rang, or my master hid in a mountian 'til the end of WWII.

Well I can't argue with the fact that they ALL pitch a lot of BS. ALL OF THEM. they all lie/embellish/mischaracterize/misrepresent to serve themselves. the real trick is learning TKMA without getting indoctrinated into the BS. Talk about skill mastery ;)

listen , you and I , and many on this forum probably have a lot more in common than not, yet it is easy to dwell on the differences unfortunately. You clearly love TKMA, as do I. so whether it's Suh or seo, ji or lee, kim or choi, in 10-15 years these guys will all be dead and our real test will begin. that is....What will we do with the Traditional Arts of Korea.

scott, sung jin, sara and alex et al will inherit the orgs and the trademarks/logos etc. who cares ?!? they will NEVER have the skill/experience of thier fathers, and they are nothing without us and our students. If the truth be known, they need us more than we need them..... really, it's true if you think about it. you can continue to train and/or run your dojangs with or without them, but their orgs wouldn't exist for one day without your dojangs. The first org to figure that out and make it the underlying principle for existing will be the winner......... as it is now, they are only as important as we make them.

JTMS

19-May-2007, 09:24 AM

listen , you and I , and many on this forum probably have a lot more in common than not, yet it is easy to dwell on the differences unfortunately. You clearly love TKMA, as do I.

I believe a very basic difference between myself and some of the others that post here is the fact that you will not hear me defame ANYONES GM.

There are good reasons why I am not a member of some of the other TKMA orgs. (I will not name them because I find that there are good people in all of them)

There are some Martial arts leaders that make me ill, however I try not to throw mud.

Grand Master Seo has always treated me and my students very well. As I have stated many times before I have found him to be a man of character and great martial skill.

Trust who you wish, believe or do not believe what you wish. It is a free country. But please keep in mind if you rally against GM Seo you are missing out on the chance to train with and fellowship with his supporters (many I am sure we will both agree are good people).

I will dance with the one who brought me.

Best wishes,

J.B. Murphy