Mysterious energy of Silat

[venom_effect]

Hi, anybody here knows about the energy of Silat. It is different from ki or chi, I read about it in a book named ''The complete Martial arts" by Paul Crompton on page 64. I have also read about it in many articles. Anybody here has an idea of it and its cultivation techniques? :woo:

[Sgt_Major]

this is something that is hotly contested, but no amount of reading or watching will explain it as well as trying it out.

Gentlemen/Ladies,

play nice now, ya hear?

[Wali]

Hi, anybody here knows about the energy of Silat. It is different from ki or chi, I read about it in a book named ''The complete Martial arts" by Paul Crompton on page 64. I have also read about it in many articles. Anybody here has an idea of it and its cultivation techniques? :woo:
There are many ways in which "silat people" try and get this type of energy, power, or whatever you want to call it.

Sometimes through external Tenaga Dalam exercises, which primarily consist of many different breathing exercises while holding certain postures, etc... others thorugh certain shamanic rituals, where they claim to get powers by sacrificing animals, etc... others try to mix their faith and the silat and also claim to get certain benefits...

The bottom line is this.... Keep it simple, and train HARD. There is no substitute for hard, physical conditioning and training. A lot of these other practices are excuses to not train hard, and have little to do with silat, and more to do with the old animalistic, shamanic Indonesian culture.

In a time of crisis, you are more likely to survive by being physically fit and strong, than by trying to cultivate a mystical force field around your body.

Unfortunately silat seems to attract a more people than other arts in the latter. (I'm not referring to you by the way, just speaking generally... ohh and Welcome to MAP!! :) )

[onyomi]

Sometimes through external Tenaga Dalam exercises, which primarily consist of many different breathing exercises while holding certain postures, etc... others thorugh certain shamanic rituals, where they claim to get powers by sacrificing animals, etc... others try to mix their faith and the silat and also claim to get certain benefits...


This sounds like qigong and Yoga. It is probably the same energy as qi or prana.

[Narrue]

One thing I have noticed is that in the Chinese martial arts whenever someone talks about chi (qi) they are almost always concerned with health i.e. practice qi gong for long life/health first and martial second.

With respect to Silat whenever I hear people talking about tenaga dalam it is always in respect to martial application and rarely do I ever hear talk about health benefits of tenaga dalam. Silat practitioners seem obsessed with fighting only.

It does not always have to be about magical methods of defending yourself……there is health, is that not important too?

[El Medico]

Of any Chinese martial system I know of,the original purpose of the majority of their exercises that most nowadays call ch'i kung were to develop or enable the development of power.Health benefits were icing on the cake,

Outlook/marketing changed during the last century,and some schools (T'ai Chi is a prime example) teach health type ch'i-kungs from outside the system,and don't teach/have their system's methods,while others tout the health bennies of their systems' methods.

Forgive thy Silat cousins,Narrue.Most people practicing are younger rather than older,so the idea of health when you have it isn't usually a large concern. The idea of different,or mysterious power you can use in application people find intriguing.

As Wali said,one must train hard.And that's probably what'll really keep one healthy,too.

[redantkuntao]

two words,

Self Confidence.

[Steve Perry]

two words,

Self Confidence.

One Word: Oxygen ...

[redantkuntao]

?

Oxygenation?

personally, i think not. helpful, yes...primary...no.

emotional balance and confidence is what leads to competence or ability, provided that you have done the groundwork and have the coordination.

breathing and stretching is helpful, of course.

muddled issue nontheless....is this a discussion about health or fighting prowess? if it's health then you are right, if not, then i am.

peace.

[Rebo Paing]

1/. Develop & know how to use your body core,
2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1,
3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving.

It's tenaga dalam or Qi.

Salam
Krisno

[AnakMurid]

I'm with Steve

Even if you want to go down the "spiritual" route for explanations it's there in the holy books, its in the Bible (Genesis), it's in the Koran (sorry I can't rattle off which Surah):

God breathed life into Adam.

So, Breath = life.

Even the Vedas will confirm this about prana.

So I guess every time we breathe we should remember this gift, for as long as we have it.

Confidence is useless without breath.

[redantkuntao]

AnakMurid,

Without breath you die. it is a given. All things are subordinate to it. That being the case, confidence comes first, effectively. same thing with gravity. it is a given. therefore the importance of...

'1/. Develop & know how to use your body core,
2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1,
3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving.'

I agree wholeheartedly with Kembang Alas, biomechanics are a crucial element of Qi.

so is breathing.

and self confidence.

i dont think religions or philosophies have anything to do with it, except as it affects your level of confidence....i.e if you consider yourself an agent of "God" this is liable to bolster your esteem and sense of purpose.

peace.

[AnakMurid]

AnakMurid,

Without breath you die. it is a given. All things are subordinate to it. That being the case, confidence comes first, effectively. same thing with gravity. it is a given. therefore the importance of...

'1/. Develop & know how to use your body core,
2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1,
3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving.'

I agree wholeheartedly with Kembang Alas, biomechanics are a crucial element of Qi.

so is breathing.

and self confidence.

i dont think religions or philosophies have anything to do with it, except as it affects your level of confidence....i.e if you consider yourself an agent of "God" this is liable to bolster your esteem and sense of purpose.

peace.

I agree, body mechanics play an important part as well, no doubt about that. The reason I put in religion is that the original thread was looking to some mysterious force, and rather than mystify with unproven theories on Chi, etc, it seems obvious to suggest looking towards the source of everything. I know that I do not have the knowledge or power to create myself, to create matter to create energy. That's my point, there is no mystery in it, the answer is in the books. However, that is not to say that physical exploration is not valid, of course it is and it is our duty to expand our knowledge of our universe as far as we can take it, but in doing so, remember that the creator is expressed in the created order.

On breath:
Although we consider that in order to live we must breathe, should we not also use breath when directing intention when hitting? Even a white belt karateka understands the importance of breath when hitting. You would not suddenly breath in while hitting, or breathe in then hold your breath while hitting.

Do you notice what happens with your breath when you are using/developing the core? Where does the breath go, do you use your belly, your chest, do you contract when you exhale, do you constrict, is the breath light and easy, is it hard and strained, when you have worked too hard physically with too much tension, are you out of breath? What happens when you are out of breath? Is the release of breath soft, or is it aggressive? How does the release of breath affect your state?

I think the connection between breath and movement is often taken for granted or overlooked. How much breath to have inside when you have exhaled on hitting, when do you breathe in, how much is enough when you breathe in, can breath be connected to intention during hitting when you exhale (let go of breath) to the strike (let go of the strike and pass the force into the target)?

That's what I am exploring at the moment (along with other things) tension/relaxation in relation to breath, and finding efficiency. I am getting this wrong in my own training, which is why I put forward emphasis on breath here. I claim no knowledge about anything, just putting forwards questions for debate, so I may get some pointers...

Thanks to all on this board as it helps me to explore and crystalise ideas, or find new ones for training.

One last question: in defining self confidence, which self or which part of the self is this?

Often when people feel vulnerable, shy or exposed they say such things as "I feel self conscious" but surely if they were conscious of the real self, this would not be the case? If one were to have real-self consciousness this is to have real self confidence? Any thoughts?

Any way, I am babbling, after all I am just a baby exploring outside my crib.

Peace to everyone.

[Steve Perry]

AnakMurid,

Without breath you die. it is a given. All things are subordinate to it. That being the case, confidence comes first, effectively. same thing with gravity. it is a given. therefore the importance of...

'1/. Develop & know how to use your body core,
2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1,
3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving.'

I agree wholeheartedly with Kembang Alas, biomechanics are a crucial element of Qi.

so is breathing.

and self confidence.

i dont think religions or philosophies have anything to do with it, except as it affects your level of confidence....i.e if you consider yourself an agent of "God" this is liable to bolster your esteem and sense of purpose.

peace.

Yes, I agree.

I said "oxygen", and this is the vital essence of air. Without it, yes, you die in a few minutes (which means it comes first in my book) but most people don't really breathe particularly well, and that's what we are talking about here. The old adage is that those breathe with the throat don't know, and those who really understand breathe with their toes. Physically, this is nonsense, but the point is that deep breathing offers something shallow breathing does not.

If you have a car that is designed to run on high-test gasoline and you feed it regular, it will operate, but badly. The key to prana, ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. is breathing. All the disciplines I have seen that involve these speak to proper breathing. They might not always agree at to what "proper breathing" is, but they all address is as vital.

Biomechanics and confidence are indeed also very much a part of it. Spirituality is somewhat harder to dissect, but since there have been people who are able to manifest the same effects of these energies without the spiritual belief, then that isn't necessary per se. Might make it easier, but it isn't a requirement.

[Rebo Paing]

Without understanding breath one does not have a place to start. However if one's practice is limited to breath alone then Redantkuntao is correct in that one should not expect fighting prowess from this requirement alone.
To explain my perspective, it is impossible to develop/nurture one's skeletal, muscular & neurological system (body core) to the maximal development for speed, strength and pliability allowing for proper function of dynamic muscular tension, without the correct application of breathing.
Breath is a type of Qi as is food. There is the Qi energy that emanates from the earth (gravity), and then there is what is called one's pre-natal Qi or so I'm told :D .
Using a modern analogy, it's like lego .. one starts with a brick, but if one wishes to build a castle, one needs many bricks, all with specific application but with a view to the bigger picture.

Salam,
Krisno

P.S. Know where you want to get to. For most people, I think it's important to have the plan of the castle too, and not build ad-hoc!

[ember]

?

Oxygenation?

personally, i think not. helpful, yes...primary...no.

emotional balance and confidence is what leads to competence or ability, provided that you have done the groundwork and have the coordination.

breathing and stretching is helpful, of course.


Actually... knowing how to control your breath can help a person retain emotional balance, leading to increased confidence.

[Narrue]

Breath dose not come first. In Tibet lung (qi) is described as a wild horse which can only be controlled by a skilled horseman (mind). Therefore functioning of the mind is put first. If someone really could master their mind then they would be truly in control of themselves.

Spirit > mind > breath > body........in that order

[Rebo Paing]

Breath dose not come first. In Tibet lung (qi) is described as a wild horse which can only be controlled by a skilled horseman (mind). Therefore functioning of the mind is put first. If someone really could master their mind then they would be truly in control of themselves.

Spirit > mind > breath > body........in that order

Philosophy is a bit like a wild horse! :D
Yes indeed mind can be first, but (with all respect to the Tibetan's), one could also argue that the dawning of consciousness of self, the ego comes first ... however, it's a bit like saying that if you wish to understand Pure Mathematics, you should know the nature of numbers first. It would be reasonable to expect that.
Having said that, it is not a requirement to know the nature of mind in order to cultivate effective power of the type displayed by a pesilat, (the nature of which was the original theme of discussion).
It is important to have the aim to achieve with some certainty of success, and while it's not about the complete understanding of the nature of mind, it is (as Narrue says) a function of the mind!

Salam,
Krisno

P.S. Another thing to consider is that it is NOT silat per-se that has the inherent power, but the pesilat, the person performing the silat.
In the end it is irrelevant whether its Krav Magda, Karate, Taiji, Xing Yi, Cimande, Western Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Ba Gua or Tong Long ... they are just vehicles on the path to fighting prowess and hopefully one can get past that stumbling block and become a little more aware ;) .

[Steve Perry]

Breath dose not come first. In Tibet lung (qi) is described as a wild horse which can only be controlled by a skilled horseman (mind). Therefore functioning of the mind is put first. If someone really could master their mind then they would be truly in control of themselves.

Spirit > mind > breath > body........in that order

Tell you what, just for an experiment, stop breathing for six or seven minutes and then revisit that notion ....

He said, grinning ....

[redantkuntao]

I agree, body mechanics play an important part as well, no doubt about that. The reason I put in religion is that the original thread was looking to some mysterious force, and rather than mystify with unproven theories on Chi, etc, it seems obvious to suggest looking towards the source of everything. I know that I do not have the knowledge or power to create myself, to create matter to create energy. That's my point, there is no mystery in it, the answer is in the books. However, that is not to say that physical exploration is not valid, of course it is and it is our duty to expand our knowledge of our universe as far as we can take it, but in doing so, remember that the creator is expressed in the created order.'

AnakMurid,

striving to expand one's understanding of their own comsomology is a venerable tradition and on that count i prefer to avoid 'seeking far for what is near'.

On breath:

I think the connection between breath and movement is often taken for granted or overlooked. How much breath to have inside when you have exhaled on hitting, when do you breathe in, how much is enough when you breathe in, can breath be connected to intention during hitting when you exhale (let go of breath) to the strike (let go of the strike and pass the force into the target)?

That's what I am exploring at the moment (along with other things) tension/relaxation in relation to breath, and finding efficiency. I am getting this wrong in my own training, which is why I put forward emphasis on breath here. I claim no knowledge about anything, just putting forwards questions for debate, so I may get some pointers...'

breath is a vital factor in the complex mix of factors that is called qi/prana/tenaga dalam. although i suspect that 'correct' breathing has a few benefits, both short and long term, in a martial or physical context the main thing that it does is stabilize the lumbar vertebrae when recieving or emitting force. this 'stabilization of the waist' effectively links the upper and lower body. as an illustration, observe a human skeleton. the only connection between the upper and lower body is the lower spine. therefore the majority of the support in the 'dantien' is accomplished by the large number of muscles there, which can be mobilized by correct breathing technique. to clarify, i am speaking mainly about 'low and compressive' breath. strikes and other exertions are accompanied by short, sharp exhalations that have a sound somewhat like a snake hiss or air leaking out of a tire. this is only one method of 'correct' breathing.



'Often when people feel vulnerable, shy or exposed they say such things as "I feel self conscious" but surely if they were conscious of the real self, this would not be the case? If one were to have real-self consciousness this is to have real self confidence? Any thoughts?'

I think you are crossing the line between metaphysical ideals and actuality. what people mean when they say 'i feel self concious' can be translated to ' i am scared and doubt my ability to handle this situation.' it is a euphamism (sp?).

in a nutshell, self confidence is being optimistic about the outcome any given event and your ability to influence or affect it positively...i.e. 'win'.

in martial arts, self confidence means that you do not have a mentality for defeat.

Peace.

[redantkuntao]

Steve Perry

'I said "oxygen", and this is the vital essence of air. Without it, yes, you die in a few minutes (which means it comes first in my book) but most people don't really breathe particularly well, and that's what we are talking about here. The old adage is that those breathe with the throat don't know, and those who really understand breathe with their toes. Physically, this is nonsense, but the point is that deep breathing offers something shallow breathing does not.'

i definately agree. breathing is an 'art' in and of itself, and there are many 'styles' of breath for health and for power. as i noted up, one thing that is does is stabilize the center of the body, in time with exertions. to be sure, good breathing does more than this but i am not really sure what, and and only able to see and feel the effect.

'If you have a car that is designed to run on high-test gasoline and you feed it regular, it will operate, but badly. The key to prana, ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. is breathing. All the disciplines I have seen that involve these speak to proper breathing. They might not always agree at to what "proper breathing" is, but they all address is as vital.'

breath technique is as vital an element as any other in the consideration of 'energy', and i do agree that in a sense that without it (good breath control) you essentially have 'nothing', especially as it pertains to 'qi'. however, dont you agree that without confidence all the breath technique in the world wont aid you in a situation where 'power' is required.

'Biomechanics and confidence are indeed also very much a part of it. Spirituality is somewhat harder to dissect, but since there have been people who are able to manifest the same effects of these energies without the spiritual belief, then that isn't necessary per se. Might make it easier, but it isn't a requirement'

could you explain what you mean by 'these energies'? i could assume but id rather not. i would quibble on the definiton of 'spirit' as it relates to this subject by saying that there seem to be a paradox between the 'spirit' of most religions and the 'spirit' of most martial arts.

peace.

[rizal]

BTT...
Tenaga dalam di Silat, by definition and meaning, is the as ki. Although it seems that Tenaga Dalam is used only in fighting, Tenaga Dalam is also used in health issues. The problem is, unlike the chinese, the indians, and the japanese, the practices are limited by show-and-tell method instead of a true research.

Concerning spirits, well, it came from the nusantara animisme/dinamisme past, combined with Indian practices of meditation. Personally, I've seen only results that came from 'penempaan diri' through meditation and exercise. Never seen a guy who get it from 'jin' or 'roh'.

Concerning breathing, remember the triangle of fire (fuel, air, and spark) which then can be applied as body mechanics, breathing, and will.

Just putting My cepek

[Steve Perry]

'Biomechanics and confidence are indeed also very much a part of it. Spirituality is somewhat harder to dissect, but since there have been people who are able to manifest the same effects of these energies without the spiritual belief, then that isn't necessary per se. Might make it easier, but it isn't a requirement'

could you explain what you mean by 'these energies'? i could assume but id rather not. i would quibble on the definiton of 'spirit' as it relates to this subject by saying that there seem to be a paradox between the 'spirit' of most religions and the 'spirit' of most martial arts.

peace.

Sure. There's a tai chi guy who drops round the online newsgroups, Mike Sigman. He and I don't agree about much of anything when it comes to economics or politics, but he demonstrates an ability that equals other serious players, and he does it with breathing and biomechanics, without any reliance on spiritual belief or "chi." He can pass the "Teacher Test," according to people I trust, and I have seen some of his videos which indicate to me that he knows what he is doing when it comes to movement.

There are stories, probably most of them apocryphal, but enough of them verified, about ordinary people who, in a moment of crisis, perform what are considered superhuman feats. The classic one is of a child who becomes trapped under an automobile. His grandmother, without any training in anything, lifts the car off the boy enough for him to escape. She didn't pray to do it, nor did she have any confidence that she could -- I doubt the idea ever crossed her mind, and yet, in the moment, she was able to do it.

This kind of event demonstrates a latent ability that, while it might be shaped and guided by factors such as exercise, faith, and self-confidence, does not seem to require any of these things to be manifested under dire circumstances.

I'm not saying that faith and self-confidence aren't valuable assets, because I believe they are, but if somebody can do the things that supposedly require them *without* them, then they obvously aren't always necessary for those actions.

[AnakMurid]

I think rage, sunlight and gamma radiation are the key factors. ;)

[Sgt_Major]

being 'in the zone' I believe its called.

I remember, and always will, the night I jumped up 14 steps in 1 go. My daughter screamed in her room when she was 2, both me and my wife ran for the stairs, she was right on my tail, one second we were both at the bottom of them, the next second I was at the top and she was still at the bottom. She swears she didnt see me move inbetween, just one second at the bottom, then at the top. I remember the feeling of the hairs rising on the back of my neck, and the sensation of "reaching deep" to get my legs to drive me up the stairs quickly ... but I cant explain how it happened I was THAT quick

[Narrue]

Tell you what, just for an experiment, stop breathing for six or seven minutes and then revisit that notion ....

He said, grinning ....


I tell you what put a bullet in your brain and then try to hold your breath for even 1 minute :D

[Narrue]

Just a question, if you believe that prana and air are the same thing then if I were to connect a container to a vacuum pump and suck out all the air will that also mean that there is now no prana in the container and if so what does that tell us about space since it is a perfect vacuum?

[ember]

Just a question, if you believe that prana and air are the same thing then if I were to connect a container to a vacuum pump and suck out all the air will that also mean that there is now no prana in the container and if so what does that tell us about space since it is a perfect vacuum?

There's no such thing as a perfect vacuum.

[Steve Perry]

Just a question, if you believe that prana and air are the same thing then if I were to connect a container to a vacuum pump and suck out all the air will that also mean that there is now no prana in the container and if so what does that tell us about space since it is a perfect vacuum?

Not much. Space is not a vacuum. There are all kinds of things out there, in small amounts -- chiefly hydrogen, but also most of the other elements that exist in real time -- and, depending on what theory you accept about the cosmos, dark matter and energy which are deduced not because we can see them, but because we believe the stuff we can see isn't enough to cause the universe to behave as it does.

If you believe that prana is not the same as air and that it can sustain human life, then you should be able to survive in the vaccum jar. I don't believe that, but you can give it a shot if you want.

People used to talk about a mysterious force called "the aether," but nobody was able able to find it. "Phlogiston" turned out to be oxygen.

I'm not saying that science has all the answers, but to postulate a mysterious energy like chi, ki, prana, or tanaga dalam if there are simplier answers available runs contrary to Occam's Razor. Nothing says you can't offer the theory, but nobody has proven it, and if you can duplicate the results with other means, then you have to accept that the atlernative theory, which you can prove, is at least as valid. (Scientifically-speaking, the alternative is more valid, because it can be replicated.)

As for shooting yourself in the head, you miss the point. Air is a requirment for all human life, and proper use of it has been demonstrated to improve physical function, to make it more efficient. Bullets in the brain do not, and have nothing to do with anything anyhow. Straw man argument.

[Narrue]

True space is not a perfect vacuum and indeed a perfect vacuum can never be. However science often calls space a vacuum in which case they are talking about interplanetary space and its lack of gas. I’m aware that bodies of gases exist within space.
Talking about the importance of breathing and inevitably the subject of prana or the energy thought to exist in the air should bring us to the question of the relation of prana to air. Is prana independent of the air or is prana air (gas) itself?
Prana is independent of air, it is not in the air but beneath it. It exists in places where air does not (gaseous vacuums).
This however does not mean that you can exist without air (physical) no more then you can exist without water.
Something being more primary to the other does not mean that you can negate the other and still live.
Those that believe that prana is air should consider the following:
A yogi will tell you that you can absorb prana from the suns rays. If prana is air that would mean the suns rays is air would it not?
Prana is said to travel through invisible channels in the body called nadi, if prana is air then these nadi would be visible would they not?

As to air being more primary to the mind, that contradicts Chinese, Indian and Tibetan internal science. The energy in the body is motivated by the mind. By mind I do not mean conscious thinking but all its aspects conscious and unconscious or to use the Indian term I’m talking about manus being primary to prana.
Lastly it also contradicts western thinking as we know the pumping action of the lungs is controlled and driven by the nervous system. The centre of which is the brain. If the nervous energy in your body was terminated you would die instantly however if you were to simply hold your breath you could survive, depending on your ability for a matter of minutes, unless you’re a yogi in which case, well we’ve all heard those story’s about being buried alive in the sand.

How does this relate to training? Tenaga dalam is not simply a breath thing, it’s a mind breath thing.
It requires coordination of mind, breath and body.

Back to the question of what is most primary in a fight. I would say FOCUS, focus being the unification of diverse things. People experience this unification and refer to it as being in the zone.

[Steve Perry]

Those that believe that prana is air should consider the following:
A yogi will tell you that you can absorb prana from the suns rays. If prana is air that would mean the suns rays is air would it not?
Prana is said to travel through invisible channels in the body called nadi, if prana is air then these nadi would be visible would they not?

Well, that brings up another whole can of worms, doesn't it? If your cat has kittens in the oven, that doesn't make them biscuits. Because a yogi (or anybody else) says you can absorb prana from the sun doesn't make it so, nor does it prove the existance of prana. Burden of proof lies with the affirmative.

Before there were "natural philosophers," i.e., scientists, people looking for explanations of various phenomena came up with all kinds of theories to explain them. If they saw lightning and heard thunder, then this might be a god beating his wife. If there was a solar eclipse, it was a dragon eating the sun -- which was maybe being pulled behind a chariot by Apollo ...

As mankind learned more about how things worked, some of these old theories fell by the wayside. My point when we started this discussion was that there is a natural explanation for much of the mysterious, and that would include things like prana, chi, ki, and tenaga dalam. I offered that the mysterious magical force that permeated folks was likely oxygen, from the air. The element Oxygen wasn't properly discovered until the late 1700's, so before that, the life-giving properties of air weren't understood. People called it other things because that the best they could do.


As to air being more primary to the mind, that contradicts Chinese, Indian and Tibetan internal science. The energy in the body is motivated by the mind. By mind I do not mean conscious thinking but all its aspects conscious and unconscious or to use the Indian term I’m talking about manus being primary to prana.

And there is much value in these ancient philosophical and physiological systems, no question, some good, pragmatic stuff, but they are less science than guesswork. Being pre-germ-theory of disease, they didn't know about bacteria and viruses and the like, and the best they could do with what they had.

We no longer believe the Gods live atop Mt. Olympus, nor that flies come from rotting meat. The old makes way for the new.


Lastly it also contradicts western thinking as we know the pumping action of the lungs is controlled and driven by the nervous system. The centre of which is the brain. If the nervous energy in your body was terminated you would die instantly however if you were to simply hold your breath you could survive, depending on your ability for a matter of minutes, unless you’re a yogi in which case, well we’ve all heard those story’s about being buried alive in the sand.

The logic here is specious. Western thinking understands a lot about anatomical systems, though certainly not everything. Unborn babies thrive and survive in their mothers' wombs without their lungs pumping air. We are creatures of flesh and the systems that make it up work in certain ways, but lungs can be artificially driven by machines, the brain can be dead, and people can survive for years. Turn the air off, however, the patient dies.


How does this relate to training? Tenaga dalam is not simply a breath thing, it’s a mind breath thing. It requires coordination of mind, breath and body.

I don't disagree with this. Breath alone is not enough. But it is primary. Everything else comes after it. No breath, no brain, no mind, no body.

So far, nobody has demonstrated that tenaga dalam (or chi, ki, or prana) will allow the user to do anything that somebody properly trained cannot do without calling on those mystical energies.

If one can duplicate magic with science, then it might not be so magic.

[tellner]

From the late lamented Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light:

The deathgod smiled. "Catch your breath quickly now, while you may," he stated. "Breath is the least appreciated gift of the gods. None sing hymns to it, praising the good air, breathed by king and beggar, master and dog alike. But, oh to be without it! Appreciate each breath, Rild, as though it were your last-- for that one, too, is near at hand!"

[Narrue]

I cannot scientifically prove that Prana exists but that does not mean that it doesn’t exist either. Science does not know all the facts and answers but I firmly believe that one day much of what the yogis believed will be scientifically proven, including the existence of prana.
I still believe that mind is primary to air and that prana is independent of the air, all my studies and experiences have brought me to those conclusions. Does Science know what the mind is fully, is the mind created by and exist within the brain or did the mind form the brain and use it as an instrument to make thoughts physical?
We are getting into this whole breath thing a little too deeply for what would be needed in our training.
However on the subject of breath Science will tell you that the lungs breathe and that’s about as far as they go. I would go further to say that there are actually eight winds (breaths) which operate in the human body and that the whole body is involved with breathing at any one time i.e. the brain, heart, lungs etc all continuously opening and closing in a state of breathing. What would Science say about what I just said….bollicks, however that will not stop me from knowing what I know to be true ;)

[Steve Perry]

I cannot scientifically prove that Prana exists but that does not mean that it doesn’t exist either.

I didn't say prana doesn't exist; I said nobody has proven that it does. And that, with training, centered around breathing and with good biomechanics, people who don't believe prana exists can duplicate some of the feats that are attributed to prana.


Science does not know all the facts and answers but I firmly believe that one day much of what the yogis believed will be scientifically proven, including the existence of prana.

I stipulated that science doesn't have all the answers. But it has some of them. And one of them is that some things, at least, that people attribute to unknown forces can be laid to reasons that are known. Occam's razor.

Recall the Yellow Bamboo folks? Who claim that they can stop an attacker without touching him, using their version of The Force? They put out videos showing this. Thing is, it only works on other Yellow Bamboo students. I saw a vid wherein a BJJ player from Australia, who flew to Bali, demonstrated that he was unaffected by the senior student's invisible energy -- he tackled the guy and took him to the ground without pause.


I still believe that mind is primary to air and that prana is independent of the air, all my studies and experiences have brought me to those conclusions. Does Science know what the mind is fully, is the mind created by and exist within the brain or did the mind form the brain and use it as an instrument to make thoughts physical?

You could have a point about mind being primary to everything, especially if you have a solipsistic view of the universe. It could all be an illusion.

And no, science doesn't have all the answers down. But science requires that when you offer an answer, it is subject to replicable experiment.
Just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean we throw out any explanation we like and expect people to believe that it is true.

I hope that you are right, that someday science will discover that ki, chi, tenaga dalam, prana, whatever you wish to call it, exists, and figures out ways for us to utilize the force. Until then, the laws of physics as we know them don't have a working spot for such energy, and it remains a spiritual theory for which the scientific evidence isn't convincing.

[Rebo Paing]

These waters get very muddy imo.
For me qi or tenaga dalam is merely the language from the past used to describe and allude to a holistic mental/body state. It may or may not contain spiritual elements as that factor depends on the individual's belief structure and life-view.
The science of the past looks quaint from the perspective of today, and yet the understanding we have today has its roots in the past. History and our perspective of time is linear ;) .
To dismiss tenaga dalam, prana or qi as merely hocus pocus misses the point.
The person who believes they are exhibiting these energies or phenomena, may not have the scientific understanding to describe what they think they have, which viewed through the lens of modern science could/might be explained as a combination of mechanics, electro-magnetic fields and chemistry.
Take for example when we catch a ball. Not everyone has the understanding of mathematical language and concepts to describe the process using the calculus ... but they can still catch the ball! :D That same person would have to draw upon their own experience to describe the process, and if no one can speak the language of the calculus the language that has the greatest empathy to a society's world view would probably become dominant.
The lens of modern perception and understanding might also discover that there are elements to the whole (of that which was described as qi etc), that are surplus to the requirement to duplicate a phenomenon such as catching a ball etc.
Often we rationalise extraneous elements into our world view because we are ignorant of the science or under-pinning logic. We use the language of our individual experience, and we run the risk of being misunderstood.

Salam,
Krisno

[Steve Perry]

These waters get very muddy imo.
For me qi or tenaga dalam is merely the language from the past used to describe and allude to a holistic mental/body state. It may or may not contain spiritual elements as that factor depends on the individual's belief structure and life-view.

I agree. The idea of inner power comes from a time when they didn't have the tools to understand or explain it, and they were simply doing the best with what they had. I don't fault anyone for that.

The science of the past looks quaint from the perspective of today, and yet the understanding we have today has its roots in the past. History and our perspective of time is linear ;) .
To dismiss tenaga dalam, prana or qi as merely hocus pocus misses the point.
The person who believes they are exhibiting these energies or phenomena, may not have the scientific understanding to describe what they think they have, which viewed through the lens of modern science could/might be explained as a combination of mechanics, electro-magnetic fields and chemistry.

Again, a good point, and no argument.

Take for example when we catch a ball. Not everyone has the understanding of mathematical language and concepts to describe the process using the calculus ... but they can still catch the ball! :D That same person would have to draw upon their own experience to describe the process, and if no one can speak the language of the calculus the language that has the greatest empathy to a society's world view would probably become dominant.

Well-put, and valid, as far as it goes. But there do exist mathematics and physics to explain how throwing and catching the ball work, even if many people don't know why. So far, the explanations for tenaga dalam or prana, ki, and chi fall mostly into two categories -- 1) It can explained by anatomy, physiology, physics, chemistry, mathematics as a natural process; or b) it's a mysterious, magical energy that cannot be measured, and works against the laws of physics as we believe them.

I don't for a second believe that there is anybody on the planet who can, with a wave of his hand and an extension of his inner power, knock me down across the room -- unless I am in league with him. Voodoo curses work because the person cursed believes that it will work. Non-believers, it bounces right off.

By the nature of the statement, the magical stuff requires faith, because science and magic -- real magic -- don't mix real well.

The lens of modern perception and understanding might also discover that there are elements to the whole (of that which was described as qi etc), that are surplus to the requirement to duplicate a phenomenon such as catching a ball etc.

This has, as far as I can tell, be done. No reputable scientist would disavow the idea that there are things science hasn't nailed down. There are theories which scientists believe, but which they have not been able to design and experiment to prove. All kinds of subatomic particles or odd rays that are so small or short-lived that nobody has been able to record one, even though they postulate they should exist.

Maybe tenaga dalam falls into this category.

The point is that nobody has been able to find any evidence for the effects of ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. that can't be explained with things like focus, biomechanics, breathing, and the like.

In this country, when you hear the sound of hoofbeats, you don't look for zebras. Maybe in parts of Africa you do.

I'm fine with somebody saying "Tenaga dalam is inner energy." The problem arises when they try to explain what it is and go off the reservation into explanations that can't be proven.

Often we rationalise extraneous elements into our world view because we are ignorant of the science or under-pinning logic. We use the language of our individual experience, and we run the risk of being misunderstood.

Yes. But I don't think in this case that I'm misunderstanding what is being said. There might be an invisible fire-breathing dragon flying around over my house whose wings cause the winds to blow, but I don't believe there is -- nor is there any reason to believe it. If you say there is, then I need some kind of proof, since I have a better explanation of why the winds blow ...

[Rebo Paing]

[FONT=Courier New]Yes. But I don't think in this case that I'm misunderstanding what is being said. There might be an but I don't believe there is -- nor is there any reason to believe it. If you say there is, then I need some kind of proof, since I have a better explanation of why the winds blow ...

Steve, you are correct. I think that a discussion of this nature requires a broad agreement to define the limits of conjecture, but that can be difficult as well. In what realm do we seek to define tenaga dalam, qi or prana. The magical or the practical? Of course there is disagreement as soon as any individual's practice includes the concept of magic as an ordinary occurrence.
The Yellow Bamboo folk you mention, aren't displaying that which I would call tenaga dalam. Like you I am unable to see that particular invisible fire-breathing dragon. :D

Venom Effect, tenaga dalam, being in the zone (as someone mentioned), is a natural phenomenon and is not unique to silat. It arises in anyone with enough correct and focused practice.
Is there such a thing as correct practice? There is, but ask a footballer, a Formula One racing car driver, a ballet dancer or even a martial artist and you will get different answers. Heck, ask on a silat forum and you'll still get different emphasis on what is primary :p .

Salam,
Krisno

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Mas Krisno and Brother Steve,
Honestly, I'm agree with both of you...:)
Proofing something beyond our imagination sometimes is very difficult, even when we have the imperical evidence that exist, but yet to anlyze the event intellectually and scientifically can be very difficult. Allow me to changes the subject for a moment.

I can give one example: It happened many moons ago while I'm doing the sightseeing in South Asia. We were in a place that we are not suppose to be, and we were under hostile fire. Heroically, one crazy pilot bring down the bird in the hot zone, the bird was taken shots while he is in stationary position on top of the trees. We are frantically hook-up our McGuire rig to our body and being pull up, in the mean time, the green flashes pointed to us and the bird. I can feel the hot gas/bullets passing by.

To make a long story short. The bird was ruttlen several times adn started to smoke, and to make a matter worse she started to slowing down and run out of fuels. The pilot able to bring down (crash landing) the bird bomb crate about 5 klicks from the nearest firebased. (the pilot later was awarded the Distinguish Air Service)

The next day, we were being informed that the bird taken 110 shots, one big hole presumed from the unexploded RPG, and the fuel tank was empty with several bullet holes in it. The mechanic said, they was puzzled, how this bird can fly after taken those shots. The bird was beyond damage and its suppose to be down and burn.

In this case we were several times lucky, no one get shot from the NVAs and not being shotdown while riding the helo that not suppose to be able to fly.
Try to explain that to the masses.....
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

Salam Mas Tristan.
Over here we say that a hot extraction rates high for the pucker factor. (The pucker factor = when the anus tightens because of fear :D ). Now that is being in the zone ... big time.
Coincidently, the classics also say to tighten the grain path when wanting to manifest qi!

Cheers
Krisno

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Mas Tristan.
Over here we say that a hot extraction rates high for the pucker factor. (The pucker factor = when the anus tightens because of fear :D ). Now that is being in the zone ... big time.
Coincidently, the classics also say to tighten the grain path when wanting to manifest qi!

Cheers
Krisno

LOL!
Sometimes your body discharge a liquid without your command :D
Tristan