Creed

[ladyhawk]

This topic came to mind after reading Thomas's reply to Discipline and Respect in Everyday Life... in which he shares his student creed. I would be interested in hearing some other creeds. Here's ours...

I believe that success is the result of intelligent effort and does not depend upon luck or cheating. I believe I will get out of life exactly what I put into it; therefore, I will
conduct myself toward others as I would want them to act toward me. I will not slight my work no
matter what I may see others doing. I will render the best service of which I am capable and I know
that success is always the result of conscientious and efficient effort.

[Chazz]

We go by the chung do kwon creed

We as members
train our spirits and bodies
according to a strict code.

We as members
are united in mutual friendship.

We as members
will comply with regulation
and obey instructors.

We say these along with the Tenets of TKD

[Thomas Vince]

Here is our Adult Creed:

" I come to you with only KARATE, empty hands.
I have no weapons but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles or my honor, should it be a matter of life or death, right or wrong; then here are my weapons, KARATE, my empty hands."

Here is the childrens creed"
"I will develop myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that could reduce my mental growth or physical health.
I will develop self discipline in order to bring out the best in myself and others.
I will use common sense before self defense and never be abusive or offecnsive.
This is a black belt school, we are dedicated we are motivated, we are on a quest to be the best, Aasah!"

In the adult creed the use of the words right or wrong leaves no margin for clemency, but to defend one's self. A matter of life or death means strict adherence to survival in protecting loved ones or self even if it means death to the adversary should no alternative be left. Principles must be upheld and protected because without them our very soul has no core or value. Honor motivates the martial artist to action because it gives them dignity. Empty hands (as well as other body weapons) are substituted in place of man made weapons to sustain honor. Discipline developed through training without weapons implants justice and descretion when applying the martial arts.

[ladyhawk]

Thomas,
We also recognize Master Ed Parker's Creed of karate. I guess I should have been more specific and mentioned the creed I posted was the Creed of Isshinryu Karate.

[Thomas Vince]

Ladyhawk,
I am not surprised at all to hear that you recognize or even use Parker's Creed, many many Karate schools use our Creed. Ed Parker was known as the Father of American Karate for many reasons and this is just one of them. This is a good thread it is interested to hear the different creeds that arts have. I am also amazed that in this forum as in life the ripple of my life can touch others without me even knowing it!
The older I get the more I hear other people talking about ideas that spurred from a conversation that someone had with me. That is quite humbling becauae I think that the greatest thing a teacher can do is to motivate a student to think for themself.

[ladyhawk]

Thomas,
Yes, Master Parker's karate creed is in our student handbook.

[Thomas Vince]

Cool.:D

[YODA]

Hearing a class of martial artists chant a creed makes the hairs go up on the back of my neck. Just makes me think of cults & stuff.

<<< Shudder >>>

"Power is the path to joy" [:D]

[LilBunnyRabbit]

For some reason I can never remember the pledge except in class. The tenets are easy though.

Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverence
Self-control
Indomitable spirit

[Freeform]

I agree with Yoda In Tai Jitsu we have a dojo etiquette that everyone learns and abides to if they wanna train. Thats it, no chanting, if you break it your hammered, if its a serious infringement then you get kick out.

Thanx

[ladyhawk]

We don't chant anything in class but all the creeds, codes, history, etc. is required learning.
Sometimes at the end of class when everyone is lined up ready to rei out you will be asked a question appropriate to your particular level.
Get it wrong and you go down for pushups.

[Tseek Choi]

Chazz,
Do you all have to recite the creed and the tenents of TKD at the start of each lesson?
If you do, how do you feel about doing it?

Colin..............................

[Chazz]

TC
In the class that i take/took we did the creed at the end of each class.

The one I teach we do the Tenets and the start and the creed at the end.

Why do you ask?

The creed i feel as if the students lesten to the works it helps bring us all together.
The tenets i hope helps us learn a better was to live. Such as the boy scouts tenest and oath.

[Tseek Choi]

Hi Chazz,
thanks for the info.
I ask because as i've been involved mainly in Chinese arts, I've never come across any chanting/reciting in any lesson.

In my class all the students kinlai (bow to partner) and to the instructor at the beginning & end of each class, but thats it.

I was wondering how new students, or even perspective students feel about having to recite a creed.
Wih all due respect it seems abit unnecessary, and appears a wee bit "cultish" as stated elsewhere.

Anyway I was wondering way you actually do it.
Is it mainly a traditional Koren thing? or is it a creation of the late General Choi?

cheers
Colin..............

[stump]

Hi all,

i can't see a pledge going down very well here in Europe, maybe it's more acceptable in the US?

I trained with two TKD schools in the UK and Ireland, neither of which emphasized the 5 tenets much. They were there but not overtly referred to.

[pgm316]

We've got a good drinking one!

But seriously we don't. I'm in the same boat as Colin here, i've been involved mainly in Chinese arts where they don't seem to do that. And I must say I'm glad, it seems a bit cultish and unnecessary to me as well. We have something of the like in our club books, but its never recited.

Maybe its time to make out own traditions.........

[Thomas Vince]

pgm316,
Funny! Let me ask you a question being envolved in Chinese arts in all, how does your respectful bow go to your instructor or practice partner.
Many times in Chinese arts the "vocal" portion of your practice is not emphasized but the "physical"part is definately there.
The Chinese have atradition as much as the Japanese do and if there is no tradition or respect shown what kind os discipline does the "group" have?
As far as "cultish" beleives, you are either weak or string, you belong where you want to belong and if it not for you, youo know where the door is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Yours in Kenpo

[pgm316]

I'm just against tradition for traditions sake. Its possible to train in the classical way without all the tradition and without loosing any essence of the art.

We still bow to one another, an important part of showing respect. But many of the chinese terms are now in English, with only the basic names still in chinese. I prefer it to pretending we're still training in ancient China or Japan.

However we still go into much more depth than other so called traditionalists, but only if there is a martial benefit. Many things we've scrapped or updated because there just not effective for modern day combat.

[Thomas Vince]

Shudder?

How could a class of children saying all:
"I will develop myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that could reduce my mental growth or physical health", make you think of cults?
I think creeds are useful it depends upon how they are used. I do agree that some groups can become cultish, I guess that you could consider Ed Parker's people to be a bit cultish, but dedication, conviction and confidence are sometimes misunderstood by the bystander.
If you take a closer look at these creeds they invoke a sense of belief and reinforcement that may be necessary in a beginners life and a way of directing the focus of the group towards effeciency in training.
Just a thought, nothing meant by it.

[KarateMom]

We don't chant either.

Here's our adult Creed:
As a student of the martial arts, I am dedicated and motivated to become the best that I can be.
I will develop self-discipline and only use what I learn in class in a positive manner.
I will set goals and strive to develop myself both mentally and physically.
I will maintain a winning attitude, both in the Martial Arts and all aspects of life.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm My Ethics come from My Family Not from the MA...
it simple says try to concious human....
cults form only when there's a shallow soul...
as far as traditions are concened i hav written in another thread
Master by Dragon Princess...
it should be understand properly before claiming it's Cult or anything like that..
-TkdWarrior-

[Tseek Choi]

Thomas,
I just feel that there is something somewhat sinister about seeing a group of children in neat little rows, with identical matching outfits facing their "instructor" and reciting their club/association creed.
This kind of thing is not really part of our (British) tradition, I know that in the states there is more of this standing & reciting stuff going on, (in schools etc) but the last big group this used this method of indoctrination in europe was I believe the Hitler Youth!
Seriuosly though, I just can't see the point in reciting any creed out oud.
Or do you also recite the creed of your local squash club before you play a match?

Colin............

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Nope, not part of our tradition at all. You don't go into assembly and see kids standing in lines in their school uniforms ever. Nuh uh, never, no way. Honest.

[Freeform]

Not in my school Jimmy, we all had seats :)

[Thomas Vince]

Yes it is sinister and I am the anti-christ of martial arts!
That is just silly, there is nothing sinister about a creed. I think that praying the same prayer over and over again is silly. When I pray I like to talk things out like there's someone listening.
Sinister? I can't even take offense to that because it is just to silly.
PS.
I don't play "squash". And do you have a national athem? Oh I think you do. Living in America is awesome and I would not want to live anywhere else. In Britain you do have more freedom than other countries,.... and oh just forget it this is a worthless conversation!

[Tseek Choi]

Agreed Thomas!
I have no real problem with it, just not my cup of tea!
I was only trying to find out why people recite creeds in class.
As for the comparison with praying.
Are you suggesting that your art is like a religion, are we talking cults here? lol
Seriously though I just wondered at the reasoning behind it.


Colin........

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Tseek Choi

And no I am not aware of british school children chanting any sort of creed at school.


Colin........

In Protestant schools they most certainly do!

" The Lord is my Shepherd...........etc"

Personally, I've never recited a Creed as such though, I have practiced with other styles, and honoured their ways. I did some contract work for Sikh temples too, and while I don't follow their ways, I covered my head, and removed my shoes to show respect to their beliefs.

If it is your way to recite a creed before class then I accept that, and I would be willing to recite that creed if I was taking part in your class, just the same as I would expect you to follow my ways if you ever trained in mine.

I went along for an Aikido class, where they bowed to the founder of the style and said something in Japanese I didn't understand. I had no problem with that.

It's a matter of respect, not 'Blind Idolatry'

[Spike]

Quote:
Personally, I've never recited a Creed as such though, I have practiced with other styles, and honoured their ways. I did some contract work for Sikh temples too, and while I don't follow their ways, I covered my head, and removed my shoes to show respect to their beliefs.

If it is your way to recite a creed before class then I accept that, and I would be willing to recite that creed if I was taking part in your class, just the same as I would expect you to follow my ways if you ever trained in mine.

I`d have to say I think there`s a difference between showing respect for someone`s beliefs and reciting their creed, a creed is, I think, very much like an oath and if you`re simply saying the words then it cheapens it in a way.
No offence meant, simply my opinion.

[Freeform]

If I was in your class I wouldn't recite your creed unless I meant it/believed in it.

[Spike]

Quote:
If I was in your class I wouldn't recite your creed unless I meant it/believed in it

Much as I hate doing it I agree with Freeform, I`d be quite and bow my head but you shouldn`t speak an oath/creed you don`t believe in

[Freeform]

How about some quite mumbles? ;)

[Andy Murray]

To Spike & Freeform,

So if all I asked you guys to do was bow on entering my dojo, and bow on leaving, you would refuse, because.................?

Bear in mind I was looking more at Dojo Etiquette, rather than any specific Dib Dib Dib/Dob Dob Dob, funny handshakes or constitutions read aloud with hand over heart.

How can someone respect your beliefs if you are unwilling to respect theirs?

[darlph]

I don't understand how someone would not bow out of respect in anothers' school. Our little creed is..Knowledge in the mind. Honesty in the heart. And strength in the body. We do not recite but it is mentioned and on our 10 question written test in the advanced class.
I once was asked to visit at a Korean TKD school by a friend who was my senior at the time. I bowed at the training area, to the instructor, and to the class. Just out of common coutesy. I am Americanized TKD trained and we bow to the training area and instructor. We say Sir and Ma'm to our Brown And Black belt ranks. The "master complimented me and the students relaxed abit because I was a guest instructor to children under the age of 12 that day.
I may not be able to recite your creed when I visit your school but I will show proper respect and honor the privilege of attending the school while I am there. And hopefully, you will respect me for showing courtesy and no disrespect.

[Freeform]

To Spike & Freeform,

So if all I asked you guys to do was bow on entering my dojo, and bow on leaving, you would refuse, because.................?


But Andy, I have nothing but the deepest respect for you..... ;)

Seriously, I would respect the etiquette of any dojo/dojang/kwoon that I visited, I'm just saying that I wouldn't swear an oath that I didn't believe in, and if I was a guest in your class I would hope that you would respect my beliefs as well.

If I didn't respect you or what you were teaching I'd still bow, only with my back to you (a show of contempt), I've never had to do this.

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

This is my question Colin. It's already been mentioned by others on this thread, that there are many ways of honouring a system, whether they be verbal or not.

It may well be that you are willing to take a class in a style different to your own, where you don't neccessarily believe in all that is being taught, you would be prepared to bow, yet if you were asked to recite their creed you would what? refuse?

Would it hurt you to honour the wishes of that particular Sensei?

What do you feel is detrimental about a verbally recited creed pre-class?

To Freeform,

Where does this idea of bowing with your back turned from, cos I never heard of this? Sounds like a good way of getting punched in the kidneys to me ;)

[Spike]

Quote:
yet if you were asked to recite their creed you would what? refuse?

Yes I would, if I didn`t believe in the creed, if I did then I would have no problem saying it.
ie. "if the creed was I respect those training here and the instructor" (just about an approximation for a bow) then I would say it, if the creed was saying how I intend to behave or deport myself, or allegiance to the tenents of that style I wouldn`t, if this caused a problem for the instructor or other members of the club then I would have to leave. I won`t swear to something which I don`t believe in.

Quote:
Where does this idea of bowing with your back turned from, cos I never heard of this? Sounds like a good way of getting punched in the kidneys to me

I`d guess that`s why it`s disrespectful, like lowering your eyes when you bow to your training partner, basically meaning "you`re not even worth me watching since you are so unskilled and weak a ha ha ha" or words to that affect

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Spike
Quote:
yet if you were asked to recite their creed you would what? refuse?

Yes I would, if I didn`t believe in the creed, if I did then I would have no problem saying it.
ie. "if the creed was I respect those training here and the instructor" (just about an approximation for a bow) then I would say it, if the creed was saying how I intend to behave or deport myself, or allegiance to the tenents of that style I wouldn`t, if this caused a problem for the instructor or other members of the club then I would have to leave. I won`t swear to something which I don`t believe in.

Quote:
Where does this idea of bowing with your back turned from, cos I never heard of this? Sounds like a good way of getting punched in the kidneys to me

I`d guess that`s why it`s disrespectful, like lowering your eyes when you bow to your training partner, basically meaning "you`re not even worth me watching since you are so unskilled and weak a ha ha ha" or words to that affect

OK Spike, taking this a piece at a time;

You say;

"I won`t swear to something which I don`t believe in."

There are some creeds already listed above by other members. Do you see anything that you disagree with?

Thanks also for your explanation;

"I`d guess that`s why it`s disrespectful, like lowering your eyes when you bow to your training partner, basically meaning "you`re not even worth me watching since you are so unskilled and weak a ha ha ha" or words to that affect "

Makes less sense to me than refusing to mumble a Creed. Have you ever heard of this happening in practice? If so, what was the outcome?

[Jim]

I've visited my fair share of other classes in time and there has only been one where I have left before class ended as I felt utter contempt for what they were doing.

I don't have a problem with doing/saying whatever is going on in another class/seminar as long as it doesn't compromise my safety or beliefs.

When you visit another class and/or attend a seminar you need to give yourself fully to that group or you won't get the maximum out of it.

With regards to a creed (which is what this thread is about) I don't have a problem reciting someone else's creed before training with them. It's their Dojo, you're the visitor. If you don't like it, leave!

[Spike]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


OK Spike, taking this a piece at a time;

You say;

"I won`t swear to something which I don`t believe in."

There are some creeds already listed above by other members. Do you see anything that you disagree with?

Thanks also for your explanation;

"I`d guess that`s why it`s disrespectful, like lowering your eyes when you bow to your training partner, basically meaning "you`re not even worth me watching since you are so unskilled and weak a ha ha ha" or words to that affect "

Makes less sense to me than refusing to mumble a Creed. Have you ever heard of this happening in practice? If so, what was the outcome?



Quote from ladyhawk`s creed:
"I believe that success is the result of intelligent effort and does not depend upon luck or cheating. "

I don`t believe that, the reasons why are a long story, but I would not recite it in the manner of an oath

from Karatemom`s

"I will develop self-discipline and only use what I learn in class in a positive manner."

what counts as a positive manner? to me that`s a very big question and not something I would say in the form of an oath/creed



Andy, in what way does showing your back to someone seem, to you, to make little sense?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Spike

Andy, in what way does showing your back to someone seem, to you, to make little sense?

As stated Spike, in comparison to refusing to go along with Dojo Etiquette, i.e. reciting a creed!

I suspect we're nit-picking here now, but the idea of being in a class, and either refusing to recite a creed, or bowing with my back turned are extravagant fantasy as far as I'm concerned. I think it unlikely that anyone with such attitudes is likely to get invited to other Dojo's, let alone learn anything.

[ladyhawk]

I originally started this thread so that various styles could share their creeds and
code of ethics in the "spirit of martial arts".

The people on this forum represent a wide variety of martial arts, lifestyles,
personalities, religions, ethnic background, etc. We aren't all going to agree.
It's human nature

Everyone interprets and adapts the written word differently according to their
individual beliefs. I may respectfully question someone's beliefs but I have
no intention of judging anyone's beliefs with the exception of extreme cases
of what I believe to be morally wrong.

Our creed is required learning for grading and while we have a formal "rei in" at
the beginning of class and a "rei out" at the end of class we do not recite our creed.

I personally do not have a problem with showing respect for my host sensei and
his/her style by following their traditions. If I'm participating in their class it means
I accepted their invitation to do so and I would not have done that if I was not a little
bit familiar with their style and have a basic understanding of their training methods.

There is an excellent chance I may not know their creed. If this is the case then silence
can not be interpreted as disrespect. If I'm a frequent visitor to the dojo, it means I have
established a serious training relationship with that sensei and his students and I will
put every effort into learning their creed and traditions. I would not be there if I didn't
consider the relationship to be a valuable part of my training.

When I travel I always bring my gi and an old white belt along with the belt of my present
rank. Usually the host sensei will request that I wear my present rank but it doesn't
bother me to put a white belt on again when visiting another style.

Regardless of whether I have come to participate or I'm just visiting to observe a class
I always rei upon entering and leaving the dojo.

Just my .02 for what it's worth.

[Andy Murray]

Thanks for your take on that Ladyhawk, as you say, we are all different............or are we???

Anyone else want to share their Creed?

[Freeform]

Andy, your right. Turning my back on you is inviting a kidney punch (or something else) the fact that I've turned my back is me saying basically that your so pathetic that I don't care if you have that advantage cause I'll still kick your ass!

Not really Andy, don't hurt me....

I'd recite a creed, if like Spike (I agree with you on those two points mate) I believed it. If we did recite a creed in my class (which we don't), I wouldn't hold it against you if you visited and then didn't want to recite it, as long as you were in the class in the spirit of learning.

Colin

[Thomas Vince]

Okay this is out of hand so here is the real creed in my schools. Just imagine 275 people SAYING THIS AT ONE TIME:
"Die, Kill, kill, kill.
Rape , pillage, pillage, pillage.
Die, kill, rape , pillage! Asahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am the anti-christ of martial arts!

[Freeform]

You have no pledge to beer!!!!!

I find your attitude to be both childish and pathetic!!! I'm off to the pub!!!!

;) ;) ;)

[sean]

We go by the chung do kwon creed

We as members
train our spirits and bodies
according to a strict code.

We as members
are united in mutual friendship.

We as members
will comply with regulation
and obey instructors.

We say these along with the Tenets of TKD

Ditto

[Senga]

Has anyone ever hear of the 11 Articles of Faith? Just curious, i have to memorize that at my TKD dojang and was wondering if any other TKDers have the same thing or whether the Articles are something my Grand Master made up.

11 Articles of Faith

1)Be loyal to your country

2)Be obedient to your parents

3)Be loving between husband and wife

4)Be cooperative between siblings

5)Establish as good realtionship of trust between teacher and students

6)Keep faith between friends

7)Respect your elders

8)Use good judgement before killing any living thing

9)Never retreat in battle

10)Always finish what you started

11)Do not be lazy but try your best in work and school


Whew, i can't believe i almost forgot the first one!

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

There's the Warrior Creed, here:

http://www.winjutsu.com/warrior-creed.html

No, we don't recite this in class. We do have a sign that says "Before you begin training, leave your ego at the door." That's sort of a creed.

[shadow_disciple]

I come to you with only karate, empty hands, i have no weapons, but should i be forced to defend myself, my principles or my honor, should it be a matter of life or death right or wrong, then here are my weapons, karate my empty hands.

[Jukai]

We bow to the instructor in the beginning of class and recite,

"I will develope myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that would reduce my mental growth or my physical health."
"I will develope self-discipline in order to bring out the best in myself and others."
"I will use what I learn in class constructively and defensively, to help myself and my fellow man, and never to be abusive or offensive."

Then we have to clap.

At the end of class we recite the black belt creed, applaud, bow to the instructor, and we're done.

You know what would be an interesting thread: The meaning we derive from the black belt creed. I know we all perceive it differently.

[Moosey]

Our dojo recitation:

1. Hitotsu! We shall work hard to ensure our master lives in the manner to which he's accustomed.
2. Hitotsu! We shall ensure that our master is never without a Porsche.
3. Hitotsu! If the inland revenue asks, we've never heard of our master.
4. Hitotsu! For tax purposes we shall inform everyone that karate originated in the cayman islands and that's why we're registered there.
5. Hitotsu! Door-to-door sales is an integral part of martial arts.
6. Hitotsu! We will we will rock you.






[Disclaimer: Moose Martial Arts International does not advocate the use of cultish tactics in martial arts. For this reason we minimise the use of martial arts in our cult]

[TraditionalTKD]

The two closest examples of a Creed I follow:

1. The Hwarang 5 Point Code

2. Be Honorable in all Your Actions.

I'd rather live the Creeds, and have students live them, than recite them.

[TheMadhoose]

The International Taekwon-Do Oath
I shall observe the tenets of Taekwon-Do
I shall respect the instructor and seniors
i shall never misuse Taekwon-Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice
I shall build a more peaceful world

Gen.Choi Hong Hi

[WingChun Lawyer]

Our dojo recitation:

1. Hitotsu! We shall work hard to ensure our master lives in the manner to which he's accustomed.
2. Hitotsu! We shall ensure that our master is never without a Porsche.
3. Hitotsu! If the inland revenue asks, we've never heard of our master.
4. Hitotsu! For tax purposes we shall inform everyone that karate originated in the cayman islands and that's why we're registered there.
5. Hitotsu! Door-to-door sales is an integral part of martial arts.
6. Hitotsu! We will we will rock you.






[Disclaimer: Moose Martial Arts International does not advocate the use of cultish tactics in martial arts. For this reason we minimise the use of martial arts in our cult]]

If I were gay I would shag you for that post. Made me spit some coffee, damn you.

Incidentally, the closest thing to a creed we have at my MT class are the insults and nicknames the coach keeps inventing to keep us motivated.

Quite frankly, techniques to hurt people and moral standards should be kept safely apart.

[CDNhammer]

At my school they recite the creed at the end of all the kids classes, but we don't do it in the adult classes. Ours is like this...though I've never recited it in the two and a half months I've been there.

I will keep my thoughts positive becasue my thoughts become my words

I will keep my words positive becasue my words become my actions

I wil keep my actions positive becasue my actions become my destiny.

[hux]

Has anyone ever hear of the 11 Articles of Faith? Just curious, i have to memorize that at my TKD dojang and was wondering if any other TKDers have the same thing or whether the Articles are something my Grand Master made up.

11 Articles of Faith

1)Be loyal to your country

2)Be obedient to your parents

3)Be loving between husband and wife

4)Be cooperative between siblings

5)Establish as good realtionship of trust between teacher and students

6)Keep faith between friends

7)Respect your elders

8)Use good judgement before killing any living thing

9)Never retreat in battle

10)Always finish what you started

11)Do not be lazy but try your best in work and school


Whew, i can't believe i almost forgot the first one!

we recited those at my first TKD(WTF) school. Well, 1 through 10 anyways.


edit

to the original question - at my current TKD school we recite the tenets, no creed.

At the kickboxing school we usually just call each other various female body parts in varying degrees of hygiene.

/edit

[SabishiiObake]

At my dojang my instructor recites our creed and then we all bow...:D

As a member in good standing I do solemnly pledge:-

1. To abide by the rules and constitution of the academy

2. To respect the laws of my country at all times

3. To strive always to be modest, courteous and respectful to my fellow man

4. To conduct all my dealings in an honourable manner

5. To cultivate self discipline and perseverance

6. To endeavour constantly to improve myself both mentally and physically

7. To put the art into use only for self defence of the weak, and never to show off my knowledge of the art.

"In pursuit of Excellence"