Lau Gar Effectiveness

[white_sash]

hi..
i know i am only beginner at lau gar kung fu, but i would like to know off somebody knowledgeble about this art, is it an effective martial art?
i keep hearing of people who learn lau gar then decide to quite at brown belt....and this worries me because i am thinking..are the other martial arts better at the same level?...
EG i want to know if a brown belt in lau gar kung fu is as good at all around fighting as a brown belt( or of simular rank) in ju jitsu, judu,kickboxing, and hwrang doe
please knoweldgeble answers not biased ...
thx :)

[WhiteWizard]

I would think it would depend on how well you are taught and how much of your time you use to absorb and practice what you are taught all i know is that it is a long long way away

[stump]

what would you consider your priorities are for training in martial arts? The answers to this question will have a bearing on the answer to your origonal question

[white_sash]

ok...what i want is a martial art that is effective for self defense.. but keeps me interested...thats why i picked lau gar... cause i like the style of the hand movements and the sets... but i keep questioning in my mind if i could defend myself if the situation arose...

[gojuman]

i think that it is very typical for students of any martial art to drop off once things get demanding in their progression. More often than not after green belt (5th level out of 9levels) the student is required to work very hard to progress through to the next rank. So my point would be that you can not determine the effectiveness of any thing based on who quits and who does not, because the martial art is only as good as you make it for your self.
whether or not you study kung fu, karate, jujitsu, tkd or what have you, as long as you stay in it and progress it is a worth while martial art.
One other point. I would be more skeptical of a school that had a lot of advanced belt students rather than a lot of lower belts, because if everyone gets a black belt what good is the style then.

[stump]

Lau Gar will teach you basic martial arts. You;ll learn to punch, kick etc. It's good at what it does. It does not do self defence.

I'm not saying drop it based on what I say (don't in fact!).

just be aware of the other arts around and that in order to become the martial artist you want to be you may have to becoma an "a la carte" martial artist!! No style of martial arts offers everything

Who are the best kickers? Go learn to kick from them

WHo are the best grapplers? go learn grappling from them

Who are the best punchers...etc.etc.etc

You don't have to do this all at once! Martial arts is a long term progression not a short term goal. Take your time...ask questions of who you're learning from and remember the forms do not directly translate into self defence. And have fun.

Never stop questioning yourself too. Better to be overprepared and hesitant than full of false confidence. Martial arts don't guarentee you can defend yourself....they only stack the odds in your favour. To what degree is up to you.

try not to get in fights....that's the best self defence you'll ever learn :)

By the way...Im one of those brown sashes....hope some of that helps

[Sub zero]

I would agree largely with stump.Learning another art is good.And in my experience instructors who r closed minded on thios subzject are often closed minded in other fields.
What i would ask u to dao is get ATLEAST to your orange belt in lau gar first.Then start trining in other mas.
I know loads of brown belts who've left.BUt whenu get up to these sort of grades it does sort people more into who really wants to do it, and who doesn't.

I think thatlau gar can be used for self defence.I admit that the JJ that i train in is more effective in general for self defence, but if ur taught aplications of the moves in ur forms and don't just concentrate on semi contact sparring (like some clubs do) then all ma (depending on the exponent) should be at about the same level.

BUt as someone else pointed out.It won't teach u everything.If u want to graple do JJ bjj or Judo.Kicking TKD........ETC.

[white_sash]

ok thank you guys alot for the opinions
it has helped me understand "lau gar and the strengths/weaknesses of the arts
im gonna continue with it, but when i leave college and get more money, i think im gonna train in something else like ju jitsu for more of a "complete" package,like what you said.
i think the experince of lau gar will help me if i ever decide to move onto JJ in the future.
but im not gonna do kickboxing,(frequently refered as the dark side) in our club, cause i dont know if it would suit me.

stump what is ju jitsu like? has it sets? i heard they slam you agaisnt a wall etc for extra training...which seems realistic but ermmm painful ?:confused:

[stump]

Hi WHite sash,

Ju Jitsu like a lot of arts depends on how you train it...it's not what is taught, but how it's trained...though how something is trained will have a bearing on what is taught....if that makes any sense ....the two things are not mutually exclusive.

You get very traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu which is little better than Lau Gar or any other art for self defence. They teach unrealistic self defence against compliant partners so you never learn what to so if someone is really out to hurt you...I believe most Ju Jitsu clubs are evolving and getting back to reality though so it's hard to judge the art overall.

Some schools will teach forms or kata....others will teach through sparring and offensive drilling. In practically all Ju Jitsu clubs you will receive a more well rounded approach to martial arts...

IN my personal opinion the best form of ju JItsu is Brazilian Ju Jitsu. It has the most realistic training practises and teaches grappling that few can better. SOme people say it's all fighting on the floor.....people who say that dont have a clue what they're talking about....but that's another story....

Don't worry about the horror stories you hear about extreme clubs. Most will only push you at your own level until you're able and willing to train in ways you wouldn;t have thought yourself possible of doing....but you have to get there in your own time...

Sorry i'm probably waffling a bit now. If you're looking for a complete package of martial arts try mixed martial arts of submission fighting......you don't get more of a complete package than that....but till your ready and in a position to move on enjoy your training and get what you can from it..

Hope that helps....sorry about the ramble...must be my old age :)

PS - train with anyone you can. You'll learn something from everyone....even if it's just never to do what they do :)

[white_sash]

thanks stump.
i will remember what you have said... you are very knowledgeable ;)

[stump]

thnks mate but i just try and keep an open mind and an honest approach. i'm no expert. There is some serious martial arts talent here though....stick around...you can;t help but learn a lot from them

Well done on your grading

[Andy Murray]

Hi White Sash, see you made it over from *** forums ;)

Just to add a couple of points.

Lot's of people drop out at Brown Belt level. Not just in Lau Gar, but in every style. A lot of people just never make the transition to Black. There are at least three good reasons for this.

You can't compare one style to another, you can't compare equivalent ranks to one another either.
e.g. In Scotland, we just couldn't attain Black Belt until we'd been practicing for 12 years. As first generation students of that area, our instructors wanted to know the system inside out.
How would that compare to a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do who'd been training 3 years?

An Art will only become effective if you make it so.

Throw yourself in the deep end by going and trying other Arts, testing what you've learned. Only then will you know whether you can swim or not.

[white_sash]

yeah i see your point andy..
cause i was bored and went on this website www.mastersofcombat.com
and i was looking at the differnet individual combatants, and i saw that they had very differnet expierience.
like one girl i saw trained 6 times a week!!
then i saw this guy who had only been training 12 months in his art, yet he said "your only as good as you are on the day"
i though this was quite strange because he was competing with guys and girls whom which some had 20 years of expeirnce and won loads of tournments etc. but i guess some peeps pick up on things quicker then others...

[Andy Murray]

Just laughing at your signature there White-Sash.

Contact Admin when you've thought of a better name. Ask them nicely and they'll change it for you. ;)

[white_sash]

okay i will ask the girl who kicks..
(cant rememebr her name sorry) :)

[Cain]

I bet it was kgirl, last I heard she quit kicking and sorted to strangling with piano wires ;)

PS - I doubt mods will be able to do it.....maybe name changes require Admins...

|Cain|

[Sub zero]

Hey would just like to add something.

I agree with andy.I know what he's talking about with the length of time it could take to get a black sash in comparrison to other arts.
I mean i was doing TKD (no disrespect to TKD people) and i could have had my balck belt in about 3 years.hmmm.Whereas i've now been practiceing lau gar for ten years and i'm not a black sash.Mainly due to my lack of training and to much teaching.And lazyness.

I don't agree with stump that JJJ is ineffective. I've been to BJJ clubs up here and they weren't effective.I have a friend for OZ who use to train in BJJ there and JJJ jere and he said the difference in standerds was absolutley huge.

I know their are some bad JJJ clubs, u get it in all arts.But what i understand form the history of JJJ in Britain the standerd of clubs has usually been quite low.

This isn't to say that their are Equally as many good BJJ clubs, which their probabaly are.
But form my experoence f BJJ It was nothing like as effective or devistating as my clubs atleast JJJ.

Soz just defending JJJ a bit.

[swoj]

Originally posted by white_sash
ok thank you guys alot for the opinions
it has helped me understand "lau gar and the strengths/weaknesses of the arts
im gonna continue with it, but when i leave college and get more money, i think im gonna train in something else like ju jitsu for more of a "complete" package,like what you said.
i think the experince of lau gar will help me if i ever decide to move onto JJ in the future.
but im not gonna do kickboxing,(frequently refered as the dark side) in our club, cause i dont know if it would suit me.



Remember the phrase, "Jack of all trades, master of none"

IMO, jumping around from one style to another trying to get the best bits of each may leave you less focused and result in less gain from the time that you put into your training.

However, taking Lau Gar as the 'standard' for you to judge what will suit is probably a good idea, see what it does for you and how it makes you feel. If you don't get what you are looking for then you should have a better idea of what to try.

[white_sash]

i havent heard of the term.. maybe cause im too young :rolleyes:
but i see what you mean m8

[Andy Murray]

Now wondering who 'swoj' is and if we've met.

'swoj', I get the importance of having a good base, however....

Lau Gar teaches no ground work, so white sash would be wise to look into JJ or similar to compliment his striking game, as and when the opportunity arises.

Let's forget the 'one man one master' disaster. ;)

[white_sash]

yes, cause i joined kung fu to improve my striking game, cause the only other martial art i have properly done is Judo and there was hardly any striking game for me to practise cause i only did it for 6 months ( and i remember being particularly weak at punching in life)
but now it is the opposite, cause as andy said... i have no ground work

i have been looking into Ju jitsu clubs around my area, and i have found a style of ju jit su, called nagare en kempo ju-jitsu (the flowing circle)

do u know much bout this andy? has it got alot of ground work?

[Sub zero]

Have a look here white sash.
http://www.jujitsuscotland.com/

U might be able to find a club there.

My JJ association.I've found that JJ compliments Lau gar well.Emphasis on ground work changes form club to club.But it does incorperate striking wuth joint locking, throwing, gorund work, pressure points etc.

[white_sash]

thx sub zero m8 but i live in england so would be a little far to travel everyday :eek:

[swoj]

Hi andy,

yeah, we've met :) Must be some time since I last bumped into you though. Hope life is good! :)

Steven Wojciechowski here! Still training in Scotland Lau Gar, broadening my scope into Hung Gar as well now

Interesting forums, I'm sure I'll be about here relatively often in the future :)

[Andy Murray]

Ah Steven, I should have figured out your member name. Trust the rest of the family are doing well too. Lovely to have you here.

There's a Scottish Lau Gar check in on the Kung Fu Forum should you wish to find out who else is here.

[swoj]

yeah, the family are doing well, all still training

I'll go find that thread :)

[Sub zero]

LOL. Sorry white sash. If u look i the links section of that page theres one for Goshin JuJitsu Association UK-Wales right at the top.
Theres phone no in tehre for clubs around the country i think.Sorry.BUt when i went thru links it just kept http://www.jujitsuscotland.com/ on my browser.

Sorry for the confusion.

Hello Steven.Doubt you'll remember me.
I'm guessing ur nick and lynns son? if not sirry.

I am teh ginger headed brown belt young un (18 now) form the dunfermline club.Use to come up with jim and derik.


Or this could be someone completly different...............

[swoj]

yeah, I'm Nick and Lynn's son!

I wasn't sure if you were still training or not, hadn't seen you at training in a while! Glad to hear that you are :)

[Sub zero]

Yeah.I know.BUt i'm up in dundee now at uni so i should see at the next reining session?
Oh well nice to erm cya ....sort of.

[white_sash]

Originally posted by Sub zero
LOL. Sorry white sash. If u look i the links section of that page theres one for Goshin JuJitsu Association UK-Wales right at the top.
Theres phone no in tehre for clubs around the country i think.Sorry.BUt when i went thru links it just kept http://www.jujitsuscotland.com/ on my browser.

Sorry for the confusion.



its ok m8, thanks for the link.. i will have a look around.

[Smee]

hi stephen

I'm paul from graham's club in Dundee. You'll know me from Sunday training - i'm the baldy git with the butterfly swords...

How did your folks get on with Sifu Lam?

Nice to see you on here,

Paul

[swoj]

yeah, figured it was you :)

we got on great, mostly fine tuning of the forms, but was very good.

The Shaolin class was excellent, 2 hours of conditioning!! If only we had the time to do that here! lol

missed you there today!! hope you got a good excuse ;)

[Smee]

My main excuse is I battered my middle finger with a hammer yesterday and it looks a bit like E.T's at the moment....

I was just about greetin......thought I'd cut the top off it.....

Serves me right for trying DIY.

Anyway...glad to hear you had a good time. Hopefully, graham will have picked up some tips from you.

See you at December's training.

:mad:

[Sub zero]

I ment to go this weekend but i thought it was on next weekend.
:(
Assuming i'm still allowed to? Every other time i went i was the lowest grade there (Brown sash).I was only there with my instructors form Dunfermline (mainly becasue they have memorys like sivs :D)
Oh well.

[fizz-lau]

can i just say that lau gar for self defence does work we teach classes in self defence only & we have peeps who are in jobs that they need to know how to defend themselves,they have all used the self defence & it has worked for all of them
as for leaving at brown sash, lots of peeps find the thought of doing the black sash in front of the panel of master yau,john russell & others to much,or the travel ,the cost or simply they find it difficult & are not wanting to make the move up

[GB-UK]

I've been doing Lau Gar for a couple of months now and was wondering how long before you could use what you have learned for self defence? I have mentioned previously that I had done a bit of Wing Chun, and I found that after a few sessions I was comfortable with the techneques and could see myself using them in self defence situations. So far in Lau Gar I have covered the first form, and the hand and kick defences, aswell as the usual basics, punches and kicking etc. But I don't have that same confidence that I could put my Lau Gar to effective use in the same way that I could use wing Chun. Does this make sence? It seems to me there is more of a learning curve to Lau Gar than Wing chun, would you agree with this?

[fizz-lau]

in the 1st set you can use every move to defend yourself, we have done break-down classes in this which you should get when you go up the grades.

[GB-UK]

But shouldn't they do that now? The breakdown classes? I am learning the stuff now but am not getting any real understanding on how the techniques work in relation to self defence.

[stvn]

[QUOTE]But shouldn't they do that now?

Exactly!
But if you're not why don't you spend some time with a training partner & breakdown the form by yourselves & see what you can find? At the end of the day it's YOU who has to understand what the forms are when you practice them. You can check what you've found out later with an instructor to see what they think.
Have fun.

[fizz-lau]

depends on the instructor, we teach the break down once the student can do all the moves without prompting from us, ask your instructor if they can show you what each move is for,they should know! :woo:

[GB-UK]

Thanks for the replies, I guess it was the two person drills of wing chun that made it all easier to see what was what. Next class I will get one of the other students to go through it with me. I'm really enjoying the classes and find Lau Gar very interesting to learn, I only wish I could attend more classes than I do.

[Smee]

Hi darthgorn

Dunno if this helps but many of the first form movements are similar to wing chun so you may understand them by the WC name a bit better.

I'll go through the moves and suggest an application that may help you understand some self defence applications. Just remember that although the form has you standing stationary and seemingly facing your opponent square on - the application of the technique frequently could/should be done with footwork to take you off the line of the attack.

1st move - downward palm block. Think of this as blocking a front kick to your stomach or groin area.

2nd move - outer forearm block (similar to Wing chun tan sau). I would use this to block an incoming straight punch or grab by stepping to the outside of the opponent and deflecting the punch whilst countering with my own. Similar to basic wing chun use. Imagine someone makes a lunge at you and tries to grab your collar with their hand so they can hook you with their right (a pretty common type of attack). You step to the right as they move in so that you are 45 deg to his attack, block with the left outer forearm and then strike him with your right. By moving off the line of his attack you are preventing him hitting you with his right hook as he has to punch over his own shoulder. Personally, I wouldn't use this movement to block a hook punch.

3rd move - inner palm block (wing chun pak sau). Similar, use to block a straight attack, ideally with some sidestepping.

4th move - harvest hand (a bit similar to wing chun **** sau). This is a clever move that takes some practice to get right but basically it is a controlling movement that can be used to create space for a follow up strike. Imagine, this guy goes to grab you again with his left hand - you block with the inner palm but, instead of just making the block - as soon as you make contact, your hand hooks over his wrist in the crane shape and circles his hand out of the way to the right. This opens up his centreline for a strike. You then immediately strike up with your palm to his chin/throat/nose.

Move 5 - hey presto, a palm strike just like I said above.

Move 6 - back of hand strike. You've tried to strike the guy in the chops with your palm but he manages to block your strike with his right palm in a downward motion. You then "leak" your right hand under and then over his block by rotating at the elbow in a down/up circular motion and belt him on the nose with the back of your hand. This leak principle can be used with many types of technique.

Move 7 - diagonal chop. Can be a strike(to the kneck say) or a block (to an uppercut/low hook to the stomach).

Move 8 - low outer palm block. Use to block a turning kick or low hook punch to the other side of your body than move 7.

Move 9 - repeat of move 5.

They are just basic blocking and striking movements that can be strung together in any order you like. As I said, imagine them being used whilst moving and side stepping.

Hope this was of some help and not too simplistic.

Paul

[GB-UK]

Thanks for the help, I guess I was reading more into the moves than I should have. Thinking it through now it all is pretty obvious :o

[Greyghost]

Nice work there PaulS.

excellent concise description.

:)

[johndoch]

Wow the first form!! I remember that now. Still there in the deepest darkest banks of my memory. :cool:

[Greyghost]

Move 6 - back of hand strike. You've tried to strike the guy in the chops with your palm but he manages to block your strike with his right palm in a downward motion. You then "leak" your right hand under and then over his block by rotating at the elbow in a down/up circular motion and belt him on the nose with the back of your hand. This leak principle can be used with many types of technique.

when the arm is rotating....with the elbow pointed towards your opponent..looks suspiciously like bong sau to me!!!!!!

Thats what i use it for, bridging the gap and striking the nose or throat or chest...

any thoughts?

[stumpy]

Kinda bong sau shaped, but the forearm at that point is moving away from contact instead of forming a positive block. I think it's just a passing similarity.

What about the purpose of the moves in jorn sau?
Why do we do that block down/strike up with the wrist 3 times? Is there some sort of mystical reason, other than "why not"?

I find it easier to learn a form by understanding each move. That's the way I teach when I'm asked to (except to the young kids who struggle enough with remembering what, let alone why).

[Greyghost]

Kinda bong sau shaped, but the forearm at that point is moving away from contact instead of forming a positive block. I think it's just a passing similarity.

it is kinda bong sau shaped but it could easily be a wing arm block with a rolling back fist over the top . ( or flat back of hand)...

i have done drills using this , and i can make it work.

but even if it is a passing similarity, it has inspired a purpose for the movement and thats good enough for me.

PS....where you been hiding? :)

[stvn]

but the forearm at that point is moving away from contact instead of forming a positive block. I think it's just a passing similarity.

The way I have been taught, immediately after the first palm strike, the hand rotates until the palm faces outward with the fingers pointing forward forming the bong sau pattern before leaking down/back into the backhand strike (or possible tan sau deflection).
When looked at in this way, the bong sau does actually have structure & forward motion, although for a short time only, but is this not the way a bong sau should be used anyway, fleetingly before tranforming into another shape?
So I think "PASSING similarity" is a very good choice of words but maybe for a different reason than they were intented!

Why do we do that block down/strike up with the wrist 3 times? Is there some sort of mystical reason, other than "why not"?

Are you questioning the movement or the number of times it is repeated?
Apart from the obvious uses for this movement, one possible reason for the repetition could be to develop 'dynamic relaxation' ('sung' or 'Soong). There was an article in the june 2004 edition of Inside Kung Fu magazine realating to this. One of the patterns described looked identical to the one in Jorn Sau but with both hands at the same time. It involved using totally relaxed limbs for power generation. Most internal artists will know a lot more about this kind of thing than myself, but if you're interested, PM me & I could send you the article.

[Greyghost]

There was an article in the june 2004 edition of Inside Kung Fu magazine realating to this. One of the patterns described looked identical to the one in Jorn Sau but with both hands at the same time. It involved using totally relaxed limbs for power generation. Most internal artists will know a lot more about this kind of thing than myself, but if you're interested, PM me & I could send you the article.

you read entirely too much..!!!!

keep up the studying.!

see you thursday.

[stumpy]

PS....where you been hiding? :)

I haven't been hiding, it's just that these people expect me to do work to justify the money that they pay me. I mean, what's that all about?? :rolleyes:


Are you questioning the movement or the number of times it is repeated?

Purely the number of repeats. There are other forms where moves are repeated a number of times as well. You're answer is as good as any other I have heard.
If any moves are combioned in a flowing style, the transition from one to another will often move through a third. Sometimes it takes another view to see the possible applications of this.

[stvn]

I just noticed in the 'Is wing chun love or hate? ' thread there is mention of the similar movement in Sil Lim Tao which is repeated 3 times (but without the downward movement). It seems to be called "3 prayers to Buddha". I'm wondering if this might point to some mystical/religious reason for the repetition. If so, it might also apply to Jorn Sau.

[fizz-lau]

Kinda bong sau shaped, but the forearm at that point is moving away from contact instead of forming a positive block. I think it's just a passing similarity.

What about the purpose of the moves in jorn sau?
Why do we do that block down/strike up with the wrist 3 times? Is there some sort of mystical reason, other than "why not"?

I find it easier to learn a form by understanding each move. That's the way I teach when I'm asked to (except to the young kids who struggle enough with remembering what, let alone why).
the purpose behind the three strikes is exactly what it looks like wrist strikes a properly trained wrist can do as much damage as a fist but the training to use this only normally takes place in the senior grade classes

[Greyghost]

I would use the downward movement as a deflection/block and the upward sweep with the back of the wrist is obviously a strike to the throat/chin/chest.

The downward movement could also be used to break a grip on your wrist....

but thats just my opinion.

[fizz-lau]

I would use the downward movement as a deflection/block and the upward sweep with the back of the wrist is obviously a strike to the throat/chin/chest.

The downward movement could also be used to break a grip on your wrist....

but thats just my opinion.
agreed the uses are always dependant on the situation at the time utilise what is effective in the confrontation remember minimum effort to produce maximum effect leaves you ready to counter any other attacks

[Magellan]

hi..
i know i am only beginner at lau gar kung fu, but i would like to know off somebody knowledgeble about this art, is it an effective martial art?
i keep hearing of people who learn lau gar then decide to quite at brown belt....and this worries me because i am thinking..are the other martial arts better at the same level?...
EG i want to know if a brown belt in lau gar kung fu is as good at all around fighting as a brown belt( or of simular rank) in ju jitsu, judu,kickboxing, and hwrang doe
please knoweldgeble answers not biased ...
thx :)

I think all styles are good, it just depends on how well they are taught and how hard you study. I've seen boxers with one year of training beat karate and kung fu black belts, but boxing is a much simpler art.

If your time is limited and are just interested in practical self defense I would study something simpler and easier than the classical kung fu styles. If you're looking for something to invest a lot of time in or an art to practice for much of your life, kung fu is great.

Bruce Lee's JKD is a good practical style but it's not really true kung fu. It really takes 7-10 years to get real skill in any classical kung fu style. But you can get your black belt in karate or TKD usually in a few years and progress much faster.

(By the way, not criticizing karate or TKD as I have black belts in both and am mainly a karate teacher, but I also am a Hung Gar practitioner and have studied a couple of other kung fu styles as well, and am a certified instructor in Kali/JKD).

It all depends on what you are interested in, and how much time, money, and effort you are willing to invest.

[Tseek Choi]

Jorn Sau is a training form.
The movements in the form do not all have a direct fighting application.
Many of the movements are designed to improve strength, flexibility and mobility in joints etc. Hence repeating movements several times.

Jorn Sau is an excellent form for training forearm strength, and wrist mobility.
If you don't train forms such as this, later on you will find weapons such as the Broadsword much harder to learn
Also it teaches you how to rotate hands and wrists for Chi Na training.

Go practice Jorn Sau 5 times slowly with tension and correct breathing, and tell me it ain't a damn good work out too!

[Tseek Choi]

Here's a point to think on...........

So......if many people leave Lau Gar at brown sash, without ever taking Black.
Could this be because many people are trained incorrectly up to brown, but then have to go before Master Yau to take their black, and are just not ready, so they leave thinking it's crap. When infact the style is very good, but their teacher hasn't taught them very well!

This is why Master Yau grades all BKFA black sash students personally.
An attempt to maintain certain base standards.
Whether you or I agree with this method is not important here, as most Lau people on here know my opinions on this already I won't give it again.