Should Korean terms be dropped? [Archive]

mattsylvester

12-Jul-2002, 08:17 AM

All of us have a first language yet we're expected to learn terms that come from a language we've never studied.

How many times have you spoken to other practitioners of your art (even within the same association) and had trouble understanding what technique they're talking about? How about spelling? Ap Chabusigi - Ahp Chapusigi - Which one's correct as I've seen both.

When I lived and trained in Holland I had to relearn the 'Korean' completely and often found English (my first language) the best way to learn!

Take the Korean A-Z on my site for example, how many of you would disagree with the spellings on there?

So, my question is. Should we drop Korean terms and use our first language instead? I say aye!

LilBunnyRabbit

12-Jul-2002, 11:59 AM

All of us have a first language yet we're expected to learn terms that come from a language we've never studied.

Not only are our first languages different, but people with, say, a strong Scottish accent are completely incomprehensible to me, and probably me to them.

How many times have you spoken to other practitioners of your art (even within the same association) and had trouble understanding what technique they're talking about? How about spelling? Ap Chabusigi - Ahp Chapusigi - Which one's correct as I've seen both.

Never. Except when they use the English name and get it wrong, since the translations aren't perfect. (upwards block and scooping block are the same technique, the best one for name is rear palm inwards block, a.k.a palm inwards, defensive open hand rear inwards, and a multitude of other names). Or when they speak a foreign language.

When I lived and trained in Holland I had to relearn the 'Korean' completely and often found English (my first language) the best way to learn!

Depends on how well the terminology is taught to be honest.

Take the Korean A-Z on my site for example, how many of you would disagree with the spellings on there?

Well since the spellings are phonetic and the Korean alphabet does not translate into ours at all (based on different principles) so long as the spellings sound the same what they look like is irrelevant.

So, my question is. Should we drop Korean terms and use our first language instead? I say aye!

Depends why you're learning. You could ask the same question with dropping the pledge and tenets. Personally I like the Korean terms. Means that I've got a fallback when I forget the English, which happens more often than forgetting the Korean. Oh, and it sounds better when you're doing demonstrations.

mattsylvester

12-Jul-2002, 12:08 PM

Hiya,

Depends why you're learning. You could ask the same question with dropping the pledge and tenets. Personally I like the Korean terms. Means that I've got a fallback when I forget the English, which happens more often than forgetting the Korean. Oh, and it sounds better when you're doing demonstrations.

Yeah and breaking looks good as well. But how do you get the correct phonetic pronounciation when most people can't even speak English proper like mate? Compare BBC English to Geordie, Liverpudlian and Glaswegian and you'd be excused for thinking that they came from seperate countries :0) Taking into account that you've got 600 Chinese Dialects (most of which are so different as to count as seperate languages) the pronounciation of Dit Da Chow is going to be taught differently depending on where their Sifu comes from.

Likewise, Korea is bound to have different accents and ways of pronouncing things as well.

Take Japanese, the women speak differently to the men. I have a friend who went to live over there as part of his course. A lot of the people he conversed with over here were girls and so he got a lot of funny looks from the men when he started talking. So, if you've got a female Japanese instructor then Gedan Barai is going to sound a lot differently than if you had the equivalent of a northern male instructor.

LilBunnyRabbit

12-Jul-2002, 12:38 PM

Easy, you have a Korean grandmaster who glares at any of his instructors who don't pronounce the words in exactly the same way as him, and so on, and so on.

Actually I know what you mean, but for some reason we seem to have gotten away with using the Korean for the time being, and it has helped in various cases.

Chazz

12-Jul-2002, 03:57 PM

I have always likes the way that Korean terms are used in class. The best way to know if you are getting close to want you are wanting to say is check out a korean translation page. There are some that have TKD infor on it as well and it tell how to say a word and lets you hear it.

Us being people not from Korea will never have what we are wanting to say perfect but someone from Korea will not thin bad of it because it schow a sign of learning. It would be like a korean learning English. We know that he isnt getting everything right but there a joy in knowing that he is willing to learn.

LilBunnyRabbit

12-Jul-2002, 06:25 PM

Personally I'm busy trying to work the alphabet, for the language I'll stick with basic terminology until I've got the hang of that.

KarateKid1975

13-Jul-2002, 04:42 AM

I don't think it (Korean term) should me dropped. I think it's a respect thing. You learn term from the language of the country where your art came from. If you travel to Korea and train there, you will, at least, understand the term, somewhat. Even if you can't speak Korean in general.

The Korean laguage was changed over the years. I did TSD in NJ, which uses, what I call, old school Korean. TKD uses the "new" korean. It doesn't really make a differance to Koreans, cause they understand both.

I had a friend who was half Korean. Her mom was from Korea. I knew some Korean (old school), and she understood me. She noted that the Korean language is a bit different now, but she didn't mind if I spoke the old or new language.

As far as the spelling Korean (in english, not hangul), it's hard to translate Korean to english, but it depends on who translates it. Some people spell Korean words how they sound, and some get "picky" lol. So it will very.

LilBunnyRabbit

15-Jul-2002, 01:29 PM

Well seeing as their alphabet was pretty much invented by one guy, its not suprising it doesn't really translate. I can't really see how you could be 'picky' about it since hangul is a phonetic alphabet anyway.

darlph

01-Sep-2002, 04:32 AM

I don't believe the Korean should be dropped. And I have to mention, look at all the differents accents and terms we use in the English language. We use both at our school. Mainly the Master Instructor, poops it out every so often along with the English translation.
If you go to a school that uses Korean and you're not familar with the terms, let the Instructor know beforehand. Investigate. A good Instructor is always willing to help a student succeed. It has happened to me when I had to go out of town for company business. The first thing I did was find a school that would allow me to train with them that was similar to my style. After about 6 calls I found one and they even came to pick me up for class. I met some really great people and wish I could go back to visit again.

Andrew Green

01-Sep-2002, 05:57 AM

The Okinawans take kung Fu, use Okinawan Pronuciations and customs.

The Japanese take Okinawan Karate, add Japanese terms, customs, beliefs, rank structure, etc.

The Korean's take Japanese Karate, drop the Japanese and add Korean terms and customs.

But if a english speaking person does this its wrong?

How many Okinawan Dojo's do you think counted off in Chinese?
How Many Japanese Dojo's retained Okinawan Hogen?
How many Korean Dojang kept the Japanese counting?

Why should an english speaking school be any different?

darlph

01-Sep-2002, 02:05 PM

I think it depends alot on the instructor. If he's Korean well... and a very traditional school, this is what you would expect. Here if the instructor is Americanized and learned from the same, it could go either way. Like this alll started. Sometimes I can't understand what the instructor is saying due to accent or language, but sometimes I don't understand because of the region of the US they are from. THree minutes from now will it matter unless it's a tournament? I'm not talking life or death, and in class you can always use you periphreal vision to see what others are doing.:)

morphus

01-Sep-2002, 03:58 PM

Andy Murray

01-Sep-2002, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Andrew Green
The Okinawans take kung Fu, use Okinawan Pronuciations and customs.

The Japanese take Okinawan Karate, add Japanese terms, customs, beliefs, rank structure, etc.

The Korean's take Japanese Karate, drop the Japanese and add Korean terms and customs.

But if a english speaking person does this its wrong?

How many Okinawan Dojo's do you think counted off in Chinese?
How Many Japanese Dojo's retained Okinawan Hogen?
How many Korean Dojang kept the Japanese counting?

Why should an english speaking school be any different?

Don't we Westerners strive to adopt a historic culture we lack ourselves at times?

Andy

Andrew Green

01-Sep-2002, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Don't we Westerners strive to adopt a historic culture we lack ourselves at times?

Andy

Yep,

But whether we lack it or ignore it are two different issues.

Andy Murray

01-Sep-2002, 10:47 PM

Of course they are Andrew, and the free choice of every individual.
I must add; be they in the Arts or out of them!

Andy

HKD

20-Sep-2002, 12:15 PM

NO, we don't need to drop the korean terms. we don't drop the english language B cuz it gets cut up buy someone from another country. thats not a good fix just cuz U can pronounce the words. we dont trash the car cuz it runs out of gas, we don't kill our kids B cuz they don't do as well in school as we'd like.

HKD

LilBunnyRabbit

20-Sep-2002, 03:16 PM

I can't really see the connection between dropping a language that is not understood by the general English-speaking public from martial arts, and dropping English, a mass-spoken and understood language because other people who speak other languages don't understand it. I also really don't see the connection between a handful of alien words and trashing cars and killing kids.

Maybe its just me.

mattsylvester

20-Sep-2002, 03:22 PM

Just to add to the mix, WTF often use completely different terms for stances and blocks etc. Have a look at some of their glossaries and you'll see what I mean! (Hopefully :0))

Chazz

21-Sep-2002, 06:43 AM

That is true but i still dont think that we should drop the language.

waya

23-Sep-2002, 05:33 AM

Along the lines of this thread, I have lately seen alot of TKD students stating their belt rank/grade in Japanese terms (Shodan, Kyu, etc). So how many are actually using Korean terms in the schools anymore, or is this a localized thing?

Rob

HKD

23-Sep-2002, 01:54 PM

well jimmyb, the korean terms R pronounced differently and spelled differently even by koreans from school to school. BUT they can understand each other so the problem isnt with the language it's with the english speaking person speaking korean. so no we don't need to drop the korean tearms. if U do U should have a better reason than U can't pronounce them. if U couldn't do a front kick would U drop that too? so what im saying if U met a korean guy who's english was bad would U tell him to just stop trying cuz U can't get it?
HKD

LilBunnyRabbit

23-Sep-2002, 03:06 PM

Don't get me wrong, I like the korean terms and want to keep them. I was simply saying that comparing it to trashing a car because you've run out of petrol makes no sense.

HKD

23-Sep-2002, 06:57 PM

well any way, if anyone wants to drop the tearms it's fine if U want. i think it's helps alot when looking at other sites or reading about Ur art in a mag. or something but i just think U should have a better reason to drop them then that, thats all.

HKD

ROBERT

09-Jan-2003, 11:22 PM

When Koreans teach baseball(in Korea, to Koreans) do they do it in english or Korean.
My personal view is that korean terms are not necessary to learn taekwondo. The only reason to use such terms would be for tradition.

Just my opinion,
Robert

Artikon

09-Jan-2003, 11:47 PM

True you don't need korean terminology to learn TKD. However because of the english language being the way it is with some many different synonyms it is quite useful to know korean terms. What I mean by this is how many people call a round house kick, or how about a turning kick, I've even heard moon kick thrown around. Without knowing all the different synonyms of the techniques and motions it can easily become confusing say at a seminar, if a student has to switch schools or train at a school on vacation, etc . . . In korean (mind I probably have different spelling) it's dollyo-chagi. Nothing else. Confusion over.

Yes there will always be the problem of understanding a person with different accents or inflections, but that's the same in the english language isn't. Between all the different regions and accents and even speech nuances in the english language, the rest of the non english speaking world must think we're nuts :D

Case in point, I was away for work unable to train at my dojang, so I found a school that would allow me to train with them for the next week. First question that was asked was do I prefer korean or english. I prefer english, but only when I used to the terms, so we started with english. Descriptions of techniques were different than what I was used to so I asked if they could tell me in Korean. Problem solved, and I wasn't standing there with egg on my face anymore.

As well any of the international instructor courses through kukkiwon are typically done in korean first, and then the native language. If I can get through it in korean first there's no sense to do the test again right :)

Once again Korean terminology probably isn't necessary if you plan on staying in your own environment, but it is definatly benificial if you plan on travelling, training at other schools, or just wanting to further your own understanding and knowledge.

ROBERT

10-Jan-2003, 12:32 AM

Good point although I would have to argue that just like americans, different koreans speak korean differently(pronunciation mostly). This is easily proven just by watching tkd videos of different koreans using korean terms.

I am not opposed to korean terms in taekwondo but I do not believe it should be a requirement. For example do not make it part of the testing.

I have also seen different korean terms for the same form, onestep, technique, depending on the instructor, and or organization.

As far as furthering my knowledge goes, to learn Korean I would take a class on Korean Language as taekwondo terms do not come anywhere near encompasing the entire language.

This is just my personal preference as I study to learn tkd and not korean.

Just my opinion,
Robert

KarateKid1975

10-Jan-2003, 05:56 AM

I totally agree with Artikon. In my TSD school, Korean term was required to test. I am glad, because I've been to three different schools now. The TKD (WTF) school didn't use term. The roundhouse term confused me (roundhouse vs turning kick, ect). I went to my new school (TKD MDK) and they used Korean term, and I knew what they were saying right off the bat. There was no doubt what they said, because I knew it. I visited other schools where Korean term was used. Again, I knew what they said. If they used english term, I was totally confused. Weird? Maybe. But being in the Korean arts, and using Korean term is common in dojangs around the world. So, you would know what the hell they are asking of you no matter what the native language was/is.

TkdWarrior

10-Jan-2003, 07:09 AM

well Korean term wasn't neccesity in here, because ppl from various backgrounds learn here some of them can't even write their name in hindi forget english or anything else for that matter... wat we want is that u know ur stuff nuthing else..if u know korean names it's advantage for u...
-TkdWarrior-

Tosh

10-Jan-2003, 05:14 PM

Sorry if already said

IMO Terms should not be dropped purely due to the main idea that you should be able to go to any club and speak the same language.

That this does not always work is a reflection on the fragmentation of associations.

In genreral whereever yuo go in the ITF the term are the same. Most of the time the problems come frmo people incorrperating local dialects or langauge variatings then translating them further to another language.

ROBERT

10-Jan-2003, 06:12 PM

I do not believe they need to be dropped. I do believe you can learn taekwondo without them.

I use korean terms in class only so if any of my students go to another class that uses them they can understand. I do not test korean terms.

Labatt

11-Jan-2003, 12:00 AM

I don't mind them.

c_storm51

12-Feb-2003, 09:59 AM

Just thought I'd add my 10 pence worth! I personally feel that the Korean terms should be kept and are an integral part of the learning phase. The idea of a MA (IMHO), is to stimulate body and mind (no red bull jokes..!). Learning all of the patterns and techniques obviously satisfies the physical requirement, but trying to immerse yourself in the culture of TKD does the mental bit. I like having to learn all of the terms....more of a challenge....!

Bigfoot

13-Mar-2003, 04:49 PM

If the school insists apon using Korean, then you should learn it. I would, however, advise from having to learn it. If the foreign words in any way diminish the understanding from the student, then I would say that it is a disadvantage to learn/use the words.
Of course there is clout in using a foreign language, but will it make you a better practitioner? Will it help you when someone is triing to smash your head in? I doubt it.
If using your native language facilitates a faster learning, then by all means, you should use your own language. Who really cares if a technique is called one thing or an other? As long as your students are learning, you could call a high block JIM or ALPHA. I know some of you will say, "What about when we train with students of an other school?" It really is only a matter of opening your eyes, as well as your ears.

My humble opinion.

Tosh

13-Mar-2003, 04:55 PM

I think there is an argument hear also that your not just learning to fight/defend but also doing a little self improvement. IMO learning the langauge (albeit a very snall section) shows a little courtesy to where it originally came from.

I hate going to other countries and when you try to speak their language they automatically speak English back.....AAArrghhh gimme a chance!!!

Should have been in rant I know, I KNOW!

Have to walk home now ....Grrrrr!

KickChick

14-Mar-2003, 10:46 AM

I believe there is a good middleground for using Korean terms within your class structure. When we count it is in Korean. The master instructor will at times say the Korean for strikes but it is only FYI (for your information).

I have to say the thing that really irks me ... (and I saw this on another forum) is in certain "modern" TKD schools they are using what I call "slang" to shorten up names of forms and other techniques....
calling Gae Bek ----> K-beck :woo:
.. and she insisted that it was correct and I was talking about an entirely different form... yeah the Korean one I guess :mad:

Now I understand the myriad of spellings you see for forms and techniques even numbers is a result of the translation from Korean to English... but what is that a result of???

John G

14-Mar-2003, 04:19 PM

Deb,

I have no problems with K-beck, as you have added another one to the list: :)

Gae Bek
Gye-Baek
Gay-Baek
Ge-Baek (ITF 4th edition 1999 way of spelling it)

The correct pronunciation is 계 백

The confusion in spelling has to do with the Romanization of Korean words.

"Some Korean martial arts texts have been translated into roman letters by writing terms as they sound. Often an attempt is made to form "Korean" sounds with the only the Roman alphabet. This unfortunately, allows too much latitude, and the result is that we have a multitude of spelling for the same word, depending on the accent of the translator. As an example, the Korean word mak-kki (막기 meaning block) can be spelled in Romanized form as maki-ki, mak-gi, maki, ma-gi, etc. because of these different pronunciations and Romanization, Korean words seldom sound exactly like they are written...

...The martial artist will note that Romanized Korean appears in many forms depending on the source and the Romanization system employed.
On the other hand, Han-gul terms almost always appear in the same form, since this is simply the most accurate way to depict Korean terms"

(Pages 10-11 "A martial artist's guide to Korean Terms, translation, and Han-gul" )

Excellent book, I would recommend it to anyone studying Korean martial arts.

I hope this helped answer your question. And yes we use the Korean come Malay come Australian version of ITF Korean in our Academy.

Respectfully,

Phi Nguyen

14-May-2003, 05:01 AM

Sorry, but the Korean terms stay. If you take out their terms, that's like stealing.

Andrew Green

14-May-2003, 05:07 AM

LOL, the Koreans took out the Japanese terms, The Japanese took out the Okinawan terms and the Okinawans took out the Chinese terms.

LilBunnyRabbit

14-May-2003, 09:36 AM

Sorry, but the Korean terms stay. If you take out their terms, that's like stealing.

By that theory we're speaking a stolen language already, or rather several stolen languages, what's one more going to hurt?

ZaCO

14-May-2003, 10:27 AM

Why don't we just take the white suits off too? What's the use for them as we don't actually dress like that on the streets? ;)

I think both of these things are just interesting parts of MAs. We actually use numbers for basic kicks and finnish terms for all the other techniques here in Finland in Sin Moo Hapkido and I wish we had all those korean terms. :)

pgm316

14-May-2003, 11:12 AM

Do the Korean terms mean anything to you? If you spoke the laguage they'd probably mean a lot more, ie upper rising block etc, but memorising meaningless names won't have the same benefit.

I think they should be kept to a point, because we do learn a foreign art, but we should remember we're not and whats best for us matters....

Phi Nguyen

14-May-2003, 09:26 PM

HAHAHAHA!! That's the good thing about taking TKD with my dad, I don't have to memorize Korean terms! hahahaha! Just kidding. :)

LilBunnyRabbit

14-May-2003, 09:46 PM

Do the Korean terms mean anything to you? If you spoke the laguage they'd probably mean a lot more, ie upper rising block etc, but memorising meaningless names won't have the same benefit.

Now, yes, but that's because I learned the words seperately, then the names.

mattsylvester

09-Mar-2004, 05:55 PM

I'd say that even knowing the language fluently you're not going to necessarily know the techniques any better.

Talking of language, I wonder what the Japanese say for 'scrum' in Rugby? It's a big game over there and I'd love to know what they've done to the English words relevant to that game and whether they've replaced any of the english with japanese.

Now, yes, but that's because I learned the words seperately, then the names.

Thomas

09-Mar-2004, 07:27 PM

A couple of bits of information (Yes, I studied Korean langauge and lived there 4 years)
(1) Koreans also use the words "kyu" and "dan"... they are accepted as Korean words. And yes, they use the same Chinese characters in formal writing for these terms. 1st dan may be written as Il dan or cho dan (this being very close to "shodan") and are used frequently in Korea.

(2) Korean may be written using English letters, but there are many different ways to do so... including 4 or 5 different "official" reomanization systems. (They just made a new one a couple of years ago... it got rid of the lines and vowel markers)

(3) There is no uniform way in Korean of saying many of these words... I have 4 books laying out here and they use different Korean words in each.

(4) Yes, there are many spoken dialects of Korean, but the written mode (formal) tends to be fairly uniform. Yes, Korean uses different levels of speech, and one form is preferred by women. It affects the verbs and titles mainly but not too many of the nouns.

(5) Korean baseball announcers and players use English terms... however, they turn them into "Konglish', modified English words with a Koreanized pronunication.

Here's something I posted on another thread in here the TKD forum to answer the same questions:

"Does TKD need Korean? No... but it can be a good thing.

Good things about teaching/learning Korean in class:
(1) Allows you to understand what is being discussed in reference books... and if you read Korean, you can double check what is written (often, the Korean books have English translations that are not very clear).

(2) If you go to Korea to study, or go to seminars with Korean masters, you will understand them when they speak... thereby making the learning experience better.

(3) It maintains a bit of tradition, linking the style to the culture and ideas of Korea, not just a generic "fighting art".

The down side:
(1) Many people don't pronounce them correctly. Unless you've studied Korean and can read Korean, the various ways of Romanization can be very confusing (there are 4 official Romanization systems in Korea). Many people don't have motivation/time/access to learn Korean just to be able to use a few classroom phrases.

(2) In Korean, there are many ways of describing various techniques... if you look through several Korean TKD texts (I have 4 in front of me now)... you'll see several different ways of describing the same techniques. (Much of it depends if the author uses the more formal Sino-Korean names or the native Korean ones).

(3) Spending a lot of time on language can take away from training time in the martial art.

At our school we use a few phrases (including counting numbers) and I teach a it of the pronunciation. We don't use a lot, just enough to get by with classroom start/finish and some terms for techniques. It adds an element of tradition but doesn't distract from our class topics."

Basically, we teach a bit in honor of our past tradition but its taught without taking time away from other training. The little bit of Korea I learned in class really didn't help me that much when I got to Korean, but it was a start and it did help me integrate into Korean schools a bit quicker.

amiller127

09-Mar-2004, 08:17 PM

Personally i think it is to make martial arts more exotic NOW at least, but originaly i think it was for cross lingual understanding and respect. As it was, if a master came to teach his style why shouldn't a little of his lingo' rub off too.

I do however think it should be dropped!

Since when have any of us Welsh CKD instructors used the Korean terms properly? :D Apart from starting and ending the class, saying Pil Sung and counting we dont really use the terms. Go to other CKD classes and they use the Korean for the patterns, speed drills and techniques. :D Doubt we would notice too much if we did get rid of it entirely, that is until someone from another school comes down and they cant understand what the hell hes saying.

Ive also noticed that pretty much all the instructors in Wales, myself included pronounce the Korean differently on many things we say. The Korean is there simply because our Grandmaster is Korean and it honours his roots. Apart from that I doubt many people would be overly worried if we got rid of it. It would certainly lead to less confusion with new students. I had a friend doing a defence drill with a lower grade during a grading once. The examiner called out Goman to stop and my friend stopped and dropped his guard. His partner who hadnt heard Goman used before actually thought the examiner was shouting encouragment. "Go Man!!" and promptly punched him in the face through his dropped guard! :D
Ive also noticed some instructors make an effort to count to 10 in Korean and others count to 2 and then grunt the rest of the time, Hana, Dool, hey, hoy, hoy, hut...... and so on.

And dont get me started on how regularly we used to do the pledge and tenets in the Welsh Schools! :D

If you ever wanted to train in a class that pretty much ignored 80% of the traditional aspects then the Welsh classes were the place to be. Cant say the same thing now though.

Din

10-Mar-2004, 06:46 AM

i say no ... learn the techniques in your language and once you know them learn the korean terms too ....

Pepsi32123

27-May-2004, 04:12 AM

Why would anyone want to drop Korean terms? I think that just a little bit should be used at least. It kind of gives it the more traditional training and more respect. That's just my opinion, though. All we do is bow in two Korean terms and have forms named after Korean people. I don't like it sometimes because some poeple can't say the word right. But they've only heard it. They've never see what it really is on paper.

Kwondo

29-May-2004, 05:09 AM

Pepsi32123

29-May-2004, 07:01 AM

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Taekwondo, more directly Korean aspects come from 'Korea!' Just because we have trouble pronunciating words or see different spellings or what have you, doesn't mean that we should drop it all together. The terminology is such a great part of TKD. Dropping terminology shows GREAT disrespect towards the art it's self.

In short I strongly disagree with dropping Korean terminology for the Korean martial arts.

Showing no disrespect,

Since a lot of non-Korean people teach Taekwondo, that doesn't mean we should make it English. We should at least give them credit for the art, and not modify it as our own.

For all of you that want to drop the Korean language from your school, think of it this way...If you want to drop Korean termonology, then you should change the art name to, "Way of the Hand and Foot." Would you want to go to a Martial Arts studio named that?

sean

29-May-2004, 10:07 AM

mattsylvester

29-May-2004, 02:08 PM

In what way am I being ignorant? Ignorant indicates a lack of knowledge which I have. If I was going to a country to visit, such as Holland, I would try to learn Dutch, Japan, Japanese but if I'm teaching a martial art where even the practitioners can't agree on the correct terms for a technique why shouldn't I use my first language?

Kwondo

29-May-2004, 09:50 PM

Lets not start name calling here :)

Why shouldn't you use your first language? because it's not your martial art to decide that and change. When we learn and eventually teach, we dont change anything. Taekwondo is korean, therefore we use the trdational terms to describe the kicks and whathave you. But that doesn't mean that we cant speak our first langage at all! Its just important that one has an understanding of the words in terms of what they mean. But dropping them all together (in my opinion of course) is no solution.

When I teach, I say the korean word for a technique. Usually at least one person forgets what it is, so I would say it in english. Its not that big of a deal for me.

Showing no disrespect,

Yang, Dae-han

30-May-2004, 02:32 AM

Easy, you have a Korean grandmaster who glares at any of his instructors who don't pronounce the words in exactly the same way as him, and so on, and so on.

That's because your pronunciation of Korean terminology, say in counting, can be mistaken for a curse word. I hear it all the time by non-native Korean speakers. It's right funny, sometimes....

As for not learning the Korean terminology in a Korean martial art....you'd be a lazy sod not to. When I played Jai-alai, I used Spanish, when my sis did ballet, she used French, football (either)...of course, English. TKD?

To the OP, as for the romanisation of Korean, well....there are so many variations because there are so many eejits who don't know how. I've even seen this one set of Korean letters assembled to look like Korean (trying to be the ITF's poomse (names)), obviously by a non-Korean literate person (and the images have a westerner's copyright on it). These images are used throughout ITF web-site land...I always get a chuckle when I run across them.

As for benefits on Korean in the gym...I've travelled about, and played TKD in (roughly) 13 countries....luckily, they all used Korean, and I was able to follow along with ease, as I don't speak as many languages....then again, some of the pronunciation could have been in Afrikaans, not Korean, for all I know, but on the whole...

Oh, as for Korea having all these dialects....well, sorta. There is a standard, and it is pretty uniform, but there are differences, but not like you'd think (and I've not the time to explain) The difference, though, is that people often switch to and from a provincial dialect to standard...depending on the situation (and at a TKD gym, it'd be standard), and it is not that great of a alteration.

Cheers,

DH

Yang, Dae-han

30-May-2004, 02:36 AM

I have to say the thing that really irks me ... (and I saw this on another forum) is in certain "modern" TKD schools they are using what I call "slang" to shorten up names of forms and other techniques....
calling Gae Bek ----> K-beck :woo:
.. and she insisted that it was correct and I was talking about an entirely different form... yeah the Korean one I guess :mad:

Just ask the twit if she lives in 'Merka.

Cheers,

DH

oni_sensei

30-May-2004, 02:44 AM

Im learning japanese because when i travel to japan i dont want to be like every other foreigner and think they should speek my language, just feel proud that you can speek the language of your art.

-Sean

You'd probably find that a lot of Japanese people nowadays speak English, but it's still better to be able to at least know enough Nihongo to get yourself around town. If you desperately need to speak English, "Eigo ga wakarimasu ka?" or "Do you speak English?" should help you out. At one point in time, I think it was put forward that English become the main language of Japan, but back on topic now.

Personally, if you're not interested in learning the official terminology of the art, move on to somewhere else. ITF Taekwon-do pretty much has a set standard of terms, both in English and Korean, although a lot of dojangs do get it mixed up and pass down incorrect technique names. I'm a stickler for tradition, so it really bugs me when an instructor uses his own terminology in a traditional art.

Pepsi32123

30-May-2004, 03:26 AM

You'd probably find that a lot of Japanese people nowadays speak English, but it's still better to be able to at least know enough Nihongo to get yourself around town.

Don't Japanese kids start to learn English when they are in elementart school? I heard that from somewhere, but I'm not sure if that's true because it seems to young to make them learn a second language.

oni_sensei

30-May-2004, 05:24 AM

A lot of Japanese schools teach English as a secondary language. In elementary school, they wouldn't be teaching them the advanced parts of English, but rather the absolute basics, the alphabet, basic phrases and words. As they progress through to middle school, it gets harder and in some cases, is a compulsory subject, I think. English is a perfect compliment to Japanese IMHO, mainly because of the way that the Japanese syllabary can be used to prounounce pretty much anything in English.

Pepsi32123

30-May-2004, 05:44 AM

IMHO?? I've heard English was one of the hardest languages to learn. It is because we have plurals, possesives/possesstions, and lots of different rules. I think Japanese would be hard because of all the different characters.

oni_sensei

30-May-2004, 07:43 AM

I never said that English was easy to learn. Once you learn the syllables of the Japanese language, pronounciation isn't hard to get right, as there's only five vowel sounds.

I said English and Japanese are a good compliment to each other, because the syllables of Japanese can be used to speak English (albeit rather broken). Writing Japanese is a different story. With three different writing scripts, which include the neverending line of Chinese characters, that's the hard part. Speaking and writing are two different things.

I think we should get back on topic now.

Rochambo83

11-Oct-2005, 03:13 AM

Ok, where I train all we learn is Korean counting from one to ten. Does anyone who lives in an english speaking country learn more than this? Do you think it is necessary to?

Also, for anyone who has trained in Korea, how difficult was the language difference? Or did you find an english speaking teacher?

Kwondo

11-Oct-2005, 03:31 AM

I think just about every school learns more than Korean counting. I don't quite understand what you mean. My guess is that you just haven't waited long enough.

But it all depends on whether it's necessary or not. In an english speaking country it's not 'necessary' to learn Korean if you do TKD; although I think that a basic understanding of basic things (i.e. counting and various techniques) would be recommended. However it's also not necessary to speak english, anyone can learn off of examples to a certain degree. If you're in a country where the mother tongue is that of the martial art then I would hope that some knowledge of the language would be present.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, in my opinion, no matter where you are in the world, a general understanding of the simple things like counting is fine. You don't have to learn a whole new language. But if you do get the opportunity to train elsewhere (no matter where) you have that much more of an advantage if you have that basic understanding. It's like mathematics; no matter where you go everyone can understand it.

Say if you go to sweeden, and find a TKD club. You go in and train and you have the hardest time trying to figure what the master is saying. You may not know what is said to you, but if you hear the word ahp chughi, you'll know what to do.

I hope I didn't wander off too much in the wrong direction on this one.

Cheers

ShadowWarrior

11-Oct-2005, 03:36 AM

We learn all the fundamentals names in Korean, the numbers one to ten (anybody know how to count higher) and some basic commands like start, stop, ready, continue, warning, red, blue..etc, etc

Kwondo

11-Oct-2005, 03:48 AM

Thats what I mean, fundamentals....that's the word.... :)
and counting higher follows the same pattern basically.

Example:

11 ten and one yul hanna
12 ten and two yul dool
13 ten and three yul set
.
.
.
19 ten and nine yul ahop

Now I'm PRETTY sure thats how it goes. some one correct me if I'm wrong.

There are words for twenty, thirty, fourty etc. and you woudl would follow the pattern. I don't know past 100 though....:D

Okay cheers

rtkd-badger

11-Oct-2005, 03:50 AM

We learn all the fundamentals names in Korean, the numbers one to ten (anybody know how to count higher) and some basic commands like start, stop, ready, continue, warning, red, blue..etc, etc
I can count to 29 in Korean, only cos I cant remember what the word for 30 is.
Basically once you get to Yeol/10 you start again using Yeol as the prefix.
Yeol Hanna - eleven
Yeol Tul - twelve
and so on.
Then once you reach the 20's
SeuMool - 20
SeuMool Hanna -21.
I never get to count that far though because I usually stop to correct someones technique and forget where I was so its like
Hanna
Tul
:D
edit; Damn I was leap frogged :D

Kwondo

11-Oct-2005, 03:59 AM

Yeah sorry about that.... but at least I know I'm right now, and didn't put down the total wrong info. :D

rtkd-badger

11-Oct-2005, 04:06 AM

Lmao, I was worried about the same thing.
I notice we have some spelling descrepencies but the basics are there.
We will have all of MAP counting in Korean before the day is out. :D

Rochambo83

11-Oct-2005, 04:08 AM

Oh, we also use Korean for start, stop, bow. But we never use Korean names for techniques like many Japanese karate/judo dojos.

John G

11-Oct-2005, 04:21 AM

Our first Dan grading requires that the student knows the fundamental strikes, kicks, block in Korean as part of their written theory exam. Correct spelling isn’t required as long as it phonetically sounds the same.

Having said that, my instructor is Malaysian, therefore my poor students get the Korean come, Malaysian come Australian version, which probably sounds nothing like the original Korean pronunciation.

To relieve the boredom, sometimes when we count I allow the students to count in whatever language they know, so we get to hear Indonesian, Japanese, French, German, Italian along with the standard Korean and English. (Some students not taking a second language tell me they are counting in Australian or American. :) )

I agree with Kwondo, that learning the movements in Korean is beneficial, especially when trying to explain a technique to someone half way across the world, or when a visiting master whose native language isn’t English is holding a seminar.

Below are some reference links

http://www.itfnz.org.nz/ref/essays/dictionary.htm

http://www.itfnz.org.nz/ref/essays/koreandict.htm

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Korean:_Lesson_I3

Regards,

TheMadhoose

11-Oct-2005, 07:25 AM

At our Clubs we use both the english and korean terms for every technique taught. along with the korean commands associated with Taekwon-Do training

neryo_tkd

11-Oct-2005, 08:23 AM

threads merged

klaasb

11-Oct-2005, 08:30 AM

I don't care what you call it, as long as you do the technique okay :)

Korean is a very difficult language for foreigners to learn. They have sounds we don't have, and vice versa. I always loved it when a student tried to make clear to my teacher (a Korean) which technique he wanted to have explained or something, and my teacher would be staring at him/her with this look that says 'which language is this???'.

So anything goed for me......But
.... could all schools in that case PLEASE USE THE SAME ENGLISH TERMS...!!!!

There are words for twenty, thirty, fourty etc. and you woudl would follow the pattern. I don't know past 100 though...
You'll usually see them switching to sino-korean.
Even past 10 they usually switch to that, it's even easier.
Or, to make things more complicated they mix both. You see this a lot when they ask for somebody's age. They will use the sino-korean for the ten (o-ship) and pure-korean for the numbers (dasot).

And since every Korean can count from 1 to 10 in English, why not use that :)

TKD_Student

11-Oct-2005, 08:39 AM

For our grading too, we have to say certain things in Korean, but because there are a lot of young people in the class, a lot of young children, we do not say a lot of the moves in Korean, just in plain english.

I guess we kinda have to research move names on our own - I hope a book and a few sheets I printed out from the net with TKD words in Korean, with an English translation.

Right now I'm just trying to learnt the numbers lol.

Ian Gordon

11-Oct-2005, 12:43 PM

Interestingly enough, most of the korean terms for things, relate to parts of the body used, other terms are specific to names of attacks and such.

I don't think the Korean terminology should be dropped in favor of our own mother language because, its kind of takes away from what Taekwondo is. It isn't our natural style, that is to say we did not "create" it so, we can't very well just change it because it doesn't necessarily suit our purposes.

Also, we find that there are different terms in english too that refer to the same attack for instance: turning kick, round kick and roundhouse kick, really its a roundhouse kick, the leg is lifted, you turn on your other foot and turn your hips with leg to deliver the kick.

In anycase, people are going to do what they want, so i mean, I think this gist of this arguement is pretty moot.

G50

11-Oct-2005, 01:32 PM

Korean terms are more important than is usually thought. At my school, Korean terms are a big sign of respect to all masters and grandmasters at TMA. I say Korean terms are more important than using just english. :)

Thomas

11-Oct-2005, 01:53 PM

Also, for anyone who has trained in Korea, how difficult was the language difference? Or did you find an english speaking teacher?
I didn't have the luxury of English speaking instructors, but honestly, it really wasn't a problem. I had a decent vocabulary of counting Korean and the basic kicks/blocks/strikes (and a short time in Korea fixed most of the pronunciation problems). Also, I picked up a few books like Tae Kwon Do Textbook vol. I - III by Kim Jeong-Rok, Seolim Publishing (in English and Korean): 1994,, which are available everywhere in Korea, are cheap, and have the English and Korean.

Between this background and physically doing what the instructors and/or training partners are doing, it wasn't a problem. As my Korean improved, I did learn more about the non-physical side and made beter realtions with the other students and instructors, but I would say not knowing Korean really isn't a big handicap in studying an art in Korea (although it can be for living there longer term).

Kwajman

11-Oct-2005, 01:59 PM

At the school I just left, for our BB test, we would learn to count to 50 in Korean, like 25 kicks and punches, and several basic commands in Korean. We would test with our eyes closed or blindbolded and then the GM would call out a kick/punch and the class would respond. You really didn't want to be the only one who didn't know it.

StuartA

12-Oct-2005, 12:25 AM

Ok, where I train all we learn is Korean counting from one to ten. Does anyone who lives in an english speaking country learn more than this? Do you think it is necessary to?

Well heres one to one hundred :)

1 to 100 Korean terminology (http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/SECTION3_counting.html)

BTW, I dont think terminology should be dropped Matt, I think students should study more in it.

Stuart

Andy Cap

12-Oct-2005, 02:33 AM

No - they should not.

Kwondo

12-Oct-2005, 02:57 AM

You'll usually see them switching to sino-korean.
Even past 10 they usually switch to that, it's even easier.

Yes, I know what you mean. But I think it's neat how in our patterns (taeguk il,Ii,sam sa oh yuk....etc jang) yo'll use one method and when you count ti's another method (hanna dool set net etc.) But if you think about it, we kind of have somthing similar.

you could say pattern FOUR or you could say the FOURTH pattern
Not really the same but you see where I'm going with this.

There are many ways to count. Doesn't mean you should take the easy way out :D
Plus don't you feel great when you can count in a different language? :P