Hap Ki Do ethics?

[Kidquick]

As a younger student (12 yrs in ITF TKD and 2.5 in HKD. 23yrs of age) I have a certain ethic on how/when true HKD should be applied (I dont want to be hurt, nor hurt somone. But they will be hurt before I). Not saying that this post will change my current opinion or support it, i am just looking into others feelings of the issue.

I have been reading and reading all these posts on here and I find myself quite intrigued. Some teachers destroying students and the same teachers making some of the most dangerous people around. Should these people be allowed to be this dangerous? And what determines this? I find arguments on some of the craziest things as well. IE what makes a martial art complete?

Defense / Defensive kicking? I currently believe that when somone physically attacks me, hit or miss, I will NOT be defensive. I never seen anyone win a fight on there back nor blocking punches. And I believe that any strike is not a defensive move. (thoughts?)

Some may say twisting and misdirections are defensive ( from the twists that were applied on me, i can say that they will cause FAR more damage then a straight shot to the face, or any other part of the body ) But i have no real life experience on applying any twists, throws, or misdirections (and i hope i will never). Having said that, do you think that the average angry joe on the street will know enough that when you do have them in a lock they will comply? or will you have to follow threw and destroy somthing ? (rather then incapasitating them immediatly with a KO or leg kick)

When surrounded? 2 or more people are looking to hurt you. I do believe that the first poor guy is gonna have a bad day, but should you be easy on the second or just givem what the first guy got too?

I may add more questions later if you do not mind.
Thank you
KQ

[MadMonk108]

When surrounded? 2 or more people are looking to hurt you. I do believe that the first poor guy is gonna have a bad day, but should you be easy on the second or just givem what the first guy got too?

I take it you've never been in a mass attack situation.

[Kidquick]

I try not to let myself get there. IMO if it were to happen, kick ass, take names and hope to god none of them are greater then I.

[JimH]

To me a Real Fight is not a game,not an exchange of he goes I go,if the intent is there and I feel a threat then why wait to be on the defensive,why wait to play catch up and let the opponent(s) lead.

To make Hapkido work you need a compliant partner,and to me everyone is compliant,voluntarily or involuntarily.

If threatened then,to me why wait, attack and go offensive,create pain and hurt and when they present something usable take it,a strike,a grab,a lock,a throw.

As to multiples:
If they threaten you why just make the first one pay?
Again if I feel threatened ,especially by a group then you must go preeemptive,you must act first.

Pick the one you want and charge them and eliminate them,it can be the leader of the group(The mouth) or the Biggest one and get rid of them fast.

In multiples you may not want to try locks and pain compliance,strike ,strike and strike,end the confrontation.

You must stay on the move,turn and spin and keep them off you,if you have never experienced a Real multiple be prepared for adrenaline dump and its affects on your fighting.

Strikes with punches and kicks may be all you can get in dealing with multiples so do not try to preplan techniques which may never come .

This is the way I have Dealt with one on ones and Multiples for Real on the street.

You must find what works for you,but most times you will not know what works in Real encounter until you are in the situation.

[Thomas]

Nice topic

Defense / Defensive kicking? I currently believe that when somone physically attacks me, hit or miss, I will NOT be defensive. I never seen anyone win a fight on there back nor blocking punches. And I believe that any strike is not a defensive move. (thoughts?)

This is where it gets into "shades of gray". It is one thing to learn the "most devastating technqiues" along the lines of "one-shot-one-kill" and all that. On the far end of the "level of force" spectrum, i.e. "deadly force", this is something that may someday literally save your life.

However, for most of us, this does not come into play at all, or if, but very rarely into our lives (depending on profession of course). In reality, much of our call to use "self defence" will fall within a lower level of force. Kill a guy for pushing you? If you do, you better have a good legal defence.

In the lower level cases, e.g. someone pushes you, a kid hassles you, fight with the spouse/neighbor/relative/ etc, you need different levels of force and you need to know how to use them well.

I am a public school teacher. I have had to use my training a few times at work or as I have travelled around the world. I have never had to use the upper ends of force. In most instances a quick parry and footowrk set me up to escalate if need be, without having done any damage to the person, and which then lead to the person backing down and leaving. Physically good for both of us as well as legally. By training various levels of force, I was ready to escalate or de-escalate as I thought I needed to. I still need to train all levels though.


Some may say twisting and misdirections are defensive ( from the twists that were applied on me, i can say that they will cause FAR more damage then a straight shot to the face, or any other part of the body ) But i have no real life experience on applying any twists, throws, or misdirections (and i hope i will never). Having said that, do you think that the average angry joe on the street will know enough that when you do have them in a lock they will comply? or will you have to follow threw and destroy somthing ? (rather then incapasitating them immediatly with a KO or leg kick)
I think this is something we sometimes forget as well. Our partners learn to be compliant so as not to get joints ripped up and such. An "untrained" person most likely isn't and again you will be looking at having to justify the damage you do along the levels of force lines. Then again for a random attacker on the street, joint and bone damage probably won't "look" as bad as if you bust his face up and have lots of blood everywhere. And, if you can, you have the option of trying to use the lock as an escorting techniques... with the option of escalating to a break or de-escalating to a release.

When surrounded? 2 or more people are looking to hurt you. I do believe that the first poor guy is gonna have a bad day, but should you be easy on the second or just givem what the first guy got too?
My philosphy on mulitple attackers is that with more thna one person, the level of froce goes up tremendously. I really have lost much of the option of trying to de-escalate, control and/or escalate if need be. My philosphy is to use more force and try to take them al out, or at least to the point where I can escape.

[Kidquick]

thanks for your opinions, and more are always welcome.

[Thomas]

thanks for your opinions, and more are always welcome.
Cool, you're quite welcome. It's a nice start to a thread.

What kinds of answers (or training) are you getting from your instructor(s) along these lines of thinking?

[Kidquick]

My instructors have never formally tought/told me anything directly on how I should conduct myself.

But in my case. I avoid any altercation I can, and do as little damage as I can. I know people who are quite the oposite.

[tkdhkddave]

What are your opinions exactly? I had a similar number of yrs behind me too in the same TKD style and found HKD. Whilst I found some things the same there were too many differences for me to continue in both, not so much in technique but in what the instructors were all about, I found that HKD suited me much better it just seemed more honest, undiluted and dare I say it much more effective but I guess that can vary on who teaches you and their own philosophy on martial arts. No disrespect intended but with the knowlage you have so far gained I wonder why you posted those questions?

Strangely when I was studying ITF TKD I had a similar approach as to regards hurting people but since stopping 3 yrs ago and starting HKD and JJ my mindset has changed and I now think more like JimH's comments. Down to the art or instructors? who knows, who cares.

hope you find your answers. :)

[Kidquick]

What are your opinions exactly?


Only hurt when hurted.


I found that HKD suited me much better it just seemed more honest, undiluted and dare I say it much more effective but I guess that can vary on who teaches you and their own philosophy on martial arts.

I found HKD very pure and MUCH more effective as well. And it will differ from each teacher.

No disrespect intended but with the knowlage you have so far gained I wonder why you posted those questions?

As stated above. We all have different teachers and upbringing. So I am curious to see what others have to say on the subject. From beginers to masters.

now think more like JimH's comments.

when i say, "Only hurt when hurted" it does not mean that the person attacking me actually has to lay a hand on me. Only means that i am 100% sure that he will hurt me if i do not hurt him first. I also think most HKD artist have the same opinion that thomas and jimh carry.

[tkdhkddave]

Ok, fair enough, thanks for clarifying :)

[Hapkid0ist]

As a younger student (12 yrs in ITF TKD and 2.5 in HKD. 23yrs of age) I have a certain ethic on how/when true HKD should be applied (I dont want to be hurt, nor hurt somone. But they will be hurt before I). Not saying that this post will change my current opinion or support it, i am just looking into others feelings of the issue.

KQ

I have always taught and been taught that you use your training when you must, not when you can. Don't get me wrong, my GM is not one of those NEVER FIGHT kinda guys. Heck I have heard stories about his fights in a post war Korea. But, at the same time, regardless of your martial arts system you should be cautious and use your training in compliance with proper use of force and legal parameters. As a former cop I can tell you that if you seriously hurt someone who tried to pick a fight with you and only threw a punch or was drunk and clearly not in their full frame of mind or capabilities then you could be looking at some very serious legal reprocussions as well as monetary ones. But at the same time you have to put your safety first, and that of those around you. Any good instructor will give you a good moral background to go with your training as well as technical ability. If they do not then it is nothing less than if some one had given you a deadly weapon and no safety classes or information on legality and weapon responsability. Understand that when a martial artist goes to court we are viewed in the eyes of the law completely different than the general public. And we are at the mercy of the Judge. The more you have to back you up the better off you will be. And if you don't have an instructor that gives you all these tools than I honestly would look for someone else.
Good luck...