Styles of Karate. [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

Kosokun

11-Jul-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
As far as I know, most of the styles of Karate are based on the basics (or kihon) from Shotokan.

Hahahahaahaaahhahahahaa! Sorry, no. Patenly nonesense.

Take for example, Goju. One of the styles that the founder of Kyokushinkai studied. It has completly different basics and kata from Shotokan. It's lineage is thouroghly different.

If you look at most histories of Karate's that began in the early 20th century, most of the founder's of various systems studied Shotokan at some point.

KG, you're trolling, aren't you?
I'm sorry, but your info here is ridiculously untrue.

Miyagi (founder of Goju) never studied under Funakoshi, and was considered to be a far superior martial artist than Funakoshi. Same for Kenwa Mabuni (founder of Shito Ryu). Kanei Uechi (founder of Uechi Ryu), or pick any of the founders of the myriad Shorin Ryu systems on Okinawa.

As they studied other arts, they incorporated techniquies they found most effective it into their new art. Mas Oyama managed to incorporate Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Chinese kenpo and Thai Kickboxing into Kyoukshinkai for example.

This is true for Oyama. Ohtsuka and Konishi (founders of Wado and Shindo Jinen ryu's, respectively). But, to say that even *most* karate schools founders studied under Funakoshi (shotokan's founder) or his students or, as you say above, is somehow *based* upon Shotokan, is terribly misinformed.

Rob

Andy Murray

11-Jul-2002, 04:54 PM

But, to say that even *most* karate schools founders studied under Funakoshi (shotokan's founder) or his students or, as you say above, is somehow *based* upon Shotokan, is terribly misinformed.

Hey Rob,

That's what the threads here for.

Inform us.

Andy

Kosokun

11-Jul-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Hi,

Can anyone explain the distinctions between the different styles of Karate.

I have come across Shotokan, Shoto- Kai, Shuko-Kai, Goju Ryu, Ishin-Ryu, Wado Ryu etc.

Are they all that different, and if so, why?

Regards

Andy

Hmmm, daunting task.

Shotokan and Shoto-Kai both stem from Gichin Funakoshi and his students.

Shuko Kai, is also known as Tani Ha Shito Ryu. It's founder was Chojiro Tani, one of the few people that Kenwa Mabuni (Shito Ryu's founder) gave Shihan licenses to.

Goju Ryu was founded by Chojun Miyagi. It's a style that originated from Naha and emphasizes body conditioning, breathing, and circular movements.

Isshin Ryu, was founded by Tatsuo Shimabaku. He studied under both Chotoku Kyan (Seibukan Shorin Ryu) and Chojun Miyagi. It represents his synthesis of these two styles.

Wado Ryu was founded by Hinori Ohtsuka. He was one of Gichin Funakoshi's most senior students in Japan. He also was a Grand Master of a particular style of Ju Jitsu *prior* to studying with Funakoshi. Ohtsuka also studied extensively with Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. Wado represents Ohtsuka's idea of budo based upon his Ju jitsu and karate backgrounds.

Rob

Kosokun

11-Jul-2002, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Hey Rob,

That's what the threads here for.

Inform us.

Andy

Andy, I can only write one post at a time! ;)

I was writing my secon post (about the founders of the other styles) while you posted this! :D

Rob

Andy Murray

11-Jul-2002, 05:12 PM

No problem Rob,

Impatient cos I'm laid up mate.

Andy Murray

12-Jul-2002, 02:25 AM

So are Shotokan and Shoto Kai, the oldest systems of Karate?

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
So are Shotokan and Shoto Kai, the oldest systems of Karate?

Not by a long shot!!!

Rob

Melanie

12-Jul-2002, 06:34 AM

The oldest noted martial art I have heard of so far is Shaolin Boxing. About 1400 years ago while teaching at the Shaolin Temple in China, Daruma Daishi used techniques basic to karate, these techniques apparently developed into Shaolin Boxing and in the 16th Century this "style" found its way from China to Okinawa.

In 1922 Gichin Funakoshi brought "Shotokan" to the fore wasn't it? When he demonstrated karate at the 1st National Athletic exhibition in Tokyo.

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Melanie
In 1922 Gichin Funakoshi brought "Shotokan" to the fore wasn't it? When he demonstrated karate at the 1st National Athletic exhibition in Tokyo.

Funakoshi demonstrated Shuri Te and not "Shotokan" before the Crown Prince and the Emperor.

"Shotokan" hadn't been created, and Funakoshi never liked that name, according to most researchers.

Rob

Andy Murray

12-Jul-2002, 02:00 PM

So what is recognised as the oldest form of Karate then?

Is it still practiced today?

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
So what is recognised as the oldest form of Karate then?

Is it still practiced today?

There's nothing that's recognized as such. The reason, IMO is because of the concept of Shu Ha Ri that's part of the Japanese/Okinawan culture. In this concept, one will study from someone, strictly imitating the instructor and doing exactly as told. Without any variation. Think about it, for a moment. For you to modify what I teach you to fit your body, you first have to learn and understand what it is that I'm teaching you, right?

The next step (ha) is a phase where the student begins to experiment, explore, expand and develop his understanding of his teachers instruction.

The final step, ri is where the student is no longer a student, but a master in his own right. His karate at this phase is uniquely his own. In fact, it can be considered a new style.

The common understanding of the day, and with Funakoshi in particular, was that there were no styles as such. Much like with accomplished Jazz musicians. Each creates their own style, yet they still play Jazz. For example, Do Cannonball Adderly, John Coletrane, Richie Cole or Grover Washington all have the same style?

So, from that perspective, there were only practitioners that came before but no "styles".

That help?

Rob

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 04:35 PM

Now, having said that, the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (a de facto branch of the govt) wanted the organization and codification of the various karate methodologies into schools. In the early 1930's Chojun Miyagi became the first to register his school and cirriculum with the DNBK as Goju Ryu. The next was Kenwa Mabuni with Shito Ryu and I forget whether Ohtsuka's Wado or Funakoshi's Shotokan was next. So, the notion of styles is a relatively new phenomena.

Rob

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 04:41 PM

The USANKF has some nice histories of 3 of the 4 major styles of Japanese Karate on its website. www.usankf.org.

Click on "Organization" at the top and then "Karate Styles" on the side.

A drop down menu will appear for you to select which style's history to view.

Rob

Andy Murray

12-Jul-2002, 07:04 PM

What's the fourth major style Rob?

Kosokun

12-Jul-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
What's the fourth major style Rob?

Goju. I just wasn't impressed with the submission for goju on the site. the 3 of 4 was an editorial comment. Sorry. Mea Culpa!

Rob

Chazz

12-Jul-2002, 08:52 PM

There is a good book called "Martial Arts Training In Japan, A Guide For Westerners" ! It give info on most of the styles for Karate including history and contact info. Its a good book to read!

Andy Murray

16-Jul-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Kosokun

There's nothing that's recognized as such. The reason, IMO is because of the concept of Shu Ha Ri that's part of the Japanese/Okinawan culture. In this concept, one will study from someone, strictly imitating the instructor and doing exactly as told. Without any variation. Think about it, for a moment. For you to modify what I teach you to fit your body, you first have to learn and understand what it is that I'm teaching you, right?

The next step (ha) is a phase where the student begins to experiment, explore, expand and develop his understanding of his teachers instruction.

The final step, ri is where the student is no longer a student, but a master in his own right. His karate at this phase is uniquely his own. In fact, it can be considered a new style.
Rob

Interesting that there is a kind of concept of wrongness to change inherent in most of the Trad systems.
At some point someone assumes their own Mastery and sets out on their own.
How can an individual realise that they have acheived the 'Ri' phase?
Do they feel they have nothing left to learn from their art?
Or is it that they are unable to learn anything further from their art?
Does 'Ri' pounce on them unawares one day, and off they go to form a new system/style?

If someone who has acheived this level moves on to start a new style/system, then initially I would imagine their contemporaries will think them arrogant and illusioned, yet if their spin on things proves to be successful, then I suppose History will be written by the victor.

Andy

Kosokun

16-Jul-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Interesting that there is a kind of concept of wrongness to change inherent in most of the Trad systems.

Yes. However, that taboo, is really for changes made willy-nilly by those who don't understand that which it is that they're trying to change. I've seen that changes to things are more readily accepted by those who've shown that they have a solid grasp of the style. For example, in your own system. If some very high ranking person (not the great-grand master, but maybe one of his lieutenants ) were to change some movements in the forms, people might not follow him, but they wouldn't openly deride him.

At some point someone assumes their own Mastery and sets out on their own.
How can an individual realise that they have acheived the 'Ri' phase?

Dunno.

Do they feel they have nothing left to learn from their art?
Could be. That's not as ridiculous a notion as one's lead to beleive.
Or is it that they are unable to learn anything further from their art?

Perhaps it's that they're expanding on what they've done in new directions. I'm inclined to think of Jazz Musicians, or other artists.

Does 'Ri' pounce on them unawares one day, and off they go to form a new system/style?

My guess is that probably, they just plod along, nose to the grindstone, then look up one day and find that they're in a radically different place. The Ri came upon them some time ago, but they just looked up to find out where they've been.

If someone who has acheived this level moves on to start a new style/system, then initially I would imagine their contemporaries will think them arrogant and illusioned, yet if their spin on things proves to be successful, then I suppose History will be written by the victor.

Andy

I don't think so. (well, I do agree about your comment on history). I think it depends upon who it is that's doing it. Say, one of your grandmaster's lieutenants? He might be more accepted than someone of lesser rank and experience. The fellow who started Choi Kwang Do? Is he considered a crackpot? Other's like Shogo Kuniba, Hinori Ohtsuka, etc. weren't looked down upon. Perhaps, it's because they had shown themselves to be accomplished prior to venturing out on their own.

Of cours, I think that race does play a part in it. A person of Asian heritage might be more accepted than an Occidental.

Rob

Andy Murray

16-Jul-2002, 05:10 PM

Hi Kosokun,

So you reckon that someone high up (non willy-nilly) in an organisation can spin off in another direction, and no-one will deride them for it? Seems a little Idealistic to me.

I don't know about that myself, but the guy who first claimed the Earth wasn't flat must have had a hard time at first, Probably a shortage of volunteers to sail over the edge I would imagine, Just as well for him he turned out to be right I suppose.

I learned something new from a very basic form the other day, something I've been practicing for years. If I'd assumed all knowledge and gone off at a tangent, then I would never have found it.

Maybe one day I'll find Ri.

Regards

Andy

Kosokun

16-Jul-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
[B]Hi Kosokun,

So you reckon that someone high up (non willy-nilly) in an organisation can spin off in another direction, and no-one will deride them for it? Seems a little Idealistic to me.

perhaps, but it was just an observation.

Rob

Andy Murray

18-Jul-2002, 03:26 PM

So would I as a non Karateka be able to recognise the different styles of Karate by merely observing a class? As a chinese stylist I can recognise subtle differences between the CMA by stances, posture, handshapes and forms. What would you folks say typifies the different Karate styles?

Andy

Kosokun

18-Jul-2002, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
So would I as a non Karateka be able to recognise the different styles of Karate by merely observing a class? As a chinese stylist I can recognise subtle differences between the CMA by stances, posture, handshapes and forms. What would you folks say typifies the different Karate styles?

Andy

It'd be no different, Andy, than a non kung fu'er recognizing the different styles of kung fu.

There are some, i.e., Shorin vs. Naha types that'd be obvious. But, others like different shorin schools, where it'd be hard.

Just like No Chinese vs. So chinese or Wing chun vs. Sil lum. Pretty similar. Choi Lay Fut vs. Fut Ga or Wu vs. Sun style tai chi, might be harder.

Rob

Andy Murray

27-Jul-2002, 04:52 PM

I nicked this little snippet from an Isshin Ryu site; kind of gives what I was hoping to find on all the styles of Karate here, though much better described, as 'hallmarks'. How you might recognise a style.

The system we teach is Isshin-Ryu Karate, one of the many forms of karate that originated in Okinawa. Okinawa is given credit for developing karate as we know it today and passing it down through the centuries. Our style of karate, founded by Tatsuo Shimabuku, is a combination of two older styles, Goju Ryu and Shorin Ryu. It was designed specifically for personal combat, however, Americans have modified the fighting practice to enable us to participate in sporting events.

The hallmarks of Isshin-Ryu Karate include:

Techniques that are delivered from natural stances as opposed to wide, locked positions, giving the practitioner mobility and dexterity;
A vertical fist compared to a horizontal fist. Although not exclusive to Isshin-Ryu, the vertical fist position is unique compared to most styles;
Close-in techniques and low kicks for street practicality;
Hand techniques and foot techniques are equally stressed, so that a practitioner learns to use all of the weapons at his or her disposal

I was particularly interested in the Vertical fist, and the name Shorin Ryu. Is there a link between Shorin Ryu, and Shorinji Kenpo?

Andy

ladyhawk

27-Jul-2002, 10:47 PM

An article on the vertical fist.
http://w3.trib.com/~smammon/vpunch.html

Here's an article from Blackbelt magazine.
http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/features/vertpunch/vertpunch.asp

Thomas Vince

25-Aug-2002, 10:07 PM

As most of you know I have never been afraid to express my opinion, however strong on a topic in this forum. I apologize for nothing, take what you need leave the rest for a real martial artist.
Karate has been one of the most *******ized and over developed arts in the world today. Even Tae Kwon Do stylists are walking into my studios with the idea of studying Karate instead of TKD. A martial art is a martial art and will survive on two very basics foundations.

1. The money, whether it be by country, capalistic, or political viewpoint.

2. The Instructor's influence, knowledge and profinciency in the art

An absolutely unknown person could practice with written methods of ma technique and make a name for that art, in any name they choose. In reality there is no such thing as tradition. Tradition in the martial arts creates a lighted path for the masses but does not insure a good practitioner. In retrospect I beleive that un-traditional fighters are the real *******s in the MA's, ruining the philosophical applications that are important to the martial artists way of life.
Vajra Mukti existed before almost any other MA coming out of the Dravidian and Aryan Wars yet so many insist crap like Krav Maga, American Karate and so many others are the answer to ultimate self defense. I say ******** to this and to Krav Maga, hitting the same point more than twice causes a desensitized target that no longer feels pain so stop hittiing the same place more than once!
Shotokan shares the exact same Kata's and movements with so many other arts that it should be considered a universal self defense system and everyone should just take shotokan, yet shotokan leaves out some very important principles that other's take as their foundation to create autonomy.
It is truly rediculous and I hope that each of us just simply finds a good instructor because in the end competitions, trophies and the number of students means nothing to the individual who really has a need to defend themselves.
I admonish each individual to find an art that pragmatically approaches self defense and protectionism in a realistic viewpoint and not be taken in by ring fighters, traditionalists, or competition trophy houses that offer classes. Be realistic in your approach to self defense and don't be taken in by the crap that is smelling up the very essence of MA's in the world today. Each and everyone of us needs to prevent a defective gene pool where the MA's is concerned. Good luck to all in their personal quest to be the best they can be!

Freeform

26-Aug-2002, 09:10 AM

Just been thinking about the whole vertical/corkscrewing thing, and would say that neither of them is 'superior' to the other. THe vertical punch would offer more protection to the ribs and probably be a little more faster. But the way mucsles work and bone alighnment I'd say that the corkscrew is moe powerfull. try doing a press-up or lean against the wall in both positions and feel t for yourself (or alternatively just hit something) and see for yourself.

Been exposed to the whole 'bone edge/mucsled forearm' blocking debate before. I'd say both are equally valid as 'blocks' but using the bone edge is also a strike. I've know of doormen (who were Karate-ka) using shuto-uke (Knife hand block/strike) to break aggressors arms when throwing haymakers at them.

A request out to the two Robs and/or Andrew Green, give us a brief rundown (or not so brief) on the differences of Shuri-te and Naha-te styles please (you guys just have a scary amount of Karate knowledge).

Thanx

Andrew Green

27-Aug-2002, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Freeform
Just been thinking about the whole vertical/corkscrewing thing, and would say that neither of them is 'superior' to the other. THe vertical punch would offer more protection to the ribs and probably be a little more faster. But the way mucsles work and bone alighnment I'd say that the corkscrew is moe powerfull. try doing a press-up or lean against the wall in both positions and feel t for yourself (or alternatively just hit something) and see for yourself.

I find that an inbetween position is strongest and fastest and that is usually the way I punch. But everyone is different, maybe we shouldn't all be punching the same way ;)

Been exposed to the whole 'bone edge/mucsled forearm' blocking debate before. I'd say both are equally valid as 'blocks' but using the bone edge is also a strike. I've know of doormen (who were Karate-ka) using shuto-uke (Knife hand block/strike) to break aggressors arms when throwing haymakers at them.

Both are valid, It depends on what your doing with that action. If I'm blocking a high round kick, muscle. If I'm blocking the side of someones neck, Bone... Depends on whether using the bone will hurt me or him more.

A request out to the two Robs and/or Andrew Green, give us a brief rundown (or not so brief) on the differences of Shuri-te and Naha-te styles please (you guys just have a scary amount of Karate knowledge).

Thanx

I think that really there is not a huge difference. The follinging is pretty general, and there are always counter examples:

Naha stlyes go heavier on conditioning. Both through weight training and body hardening.

Shuri footwork is more natural step straight, stand in a natural position. Naha uses a circular step and a slightly pigeon toed stance.

Shuri styles use hip rotation more in strikes, naha styles tend to use rooting to the ground and tension at the end of a strike.

Naha uses a more regulated breathing, shuri is more natural.

Shuri styles tend to be more agile. I don't think there are any jumping techniques in Naha based kata, Shuri ones occasionally have a double kick or a jumping crescent kick. Shuri styles use more evasive actions while naha styles stand there ground.

Naha styles tend to use more circular actions in front of the body (wax on, wax off) while shuri styles tend to use be more circular in body movement (spinning)

These are not universal to all shuri and naha based schools, just some of my observations. The differences are not really that big though in my opinion, they come down to training methods as much as anything else.

The main Naha-te based schools are Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu.

The Shuri-te schools mainly fall under the name shorin ryu, but there are quite a few different Shorin ryus. Isshin ryu is often considered just another branch of Shorin ryu, but it does contain elements of Goju-ryu.

A lot of it is kind of hard to explainm like the power generation in a punch. shuri styles come more from twisting, while naha styles come more from sinking. If that makes any sense :D:confused: its easier to demonstrate...

Of course I've left out the Japanese styles... But everyone knows there not "Real" karate anyway :D

Freeform

31-Aug-2002, 08:39 AM

Cheers Andrew,

I've heard it said that the Naha-te styles are more closely related to Chinese styles than anything else and place a greater emphasis on breathing (I heard this from a Gojo Ryu BB)?

Any thought?

Thanx

Andrew Green

01-Sep-2002, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by Freeform
Cheers Andrew,

I've heard it said that the Naha-te styles are more closely related to Chinese styles than anything else and place a greater emphasis on breathing (I heard this from a Gojo Ryu BB)?

Any thought?

Thanx

I'm not sure, many of the instructors that would be considered part of the Naha-te spent time in China closer to the present time in the lineage tree. But they modified their stuff as well. Both are distinctly Okinawan though, Uechi ryu is perhaps a little more Chinese IMO, but its hard to say. I can't tell you much about the Chinese styles of the time.

As for breathing, yes Naha stlyes tend to focus more on regulated breathing.

KarateMom

18-Oct-2002, 04:30 PM

I only know about American Kempo Karate.

Thomas Vince

19-Oct-2002, 12:50 PM

Did somebody mention American Kenpo Karate!

TkdWarrior

19-Oct-2002, 01:00 PM

"Did somebody mention American Kenpo Karate!"
Nahhhh..i thought she said kempo karate....nobody mentioned yer name... :p
-TkdWarrior-

Thomas Vince

21-Oct-2002, 02:24 AM

It would be interesting to know who teaches American "Kempo" Karate in South Carolina.

gojutejutsuryu

29-Dec-2002, 03:41 PM

Kyokushin_girl.
Everything you wish yourself and your loved ones this festive season. STAY FOREVER YOUNG AND MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU.

ALL KARATE FOUNDED ON THE BASICS OF SHOTOKAN. ?????????

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmh.

As far as my records go (I am not a Shotokan stylist) and please correct me if I am wrong, the lineage of Shotokan goes something like this.

Funakoshi Gichin. (1868 to 1957)
Founder of "Shoto-kan" in +/- 1936) (Shoto was Funakoshi's pen name and Kan just means club)

TAUGHT BY: (Main lineage)

Yasutsune Itosu. (1830 to 1914)
Developed the 5 x Pinan kata's and kata's Bassai-sho and Kanko-sho. A master of "Tomari-te".

TAUGHT BY: (Main lineage)

Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. (1798 to 1889)
A grand master of "Shuri-te"

TAUGHT BY: (Main lineage)

"Karate" Sakugawa. (1733 to 1818)
From "Akata", from the port town of Shuri , Okinawa.
A "Shuri-te great grand master.

TAUGHT BY: (Main lineage)

Takahara ?
(MY RECORDS DONT GO ANY FURTHER BACK......... MAYBE SOMEONE CAN TAKE IT FROM HERE. !)

HOPE THIS HELPS TO SETTLE THE DEBATE.
IE:
Shotokan missed being the first style from which other styles grew by about 300 years on the above lineage line.

STAY FOREVER YOUNG.

gojutejutsryu.
(SOUTH AFRICA)

Jamo

16-May-2003, 04:10 PM

So, the notion of styles is a relatively new phenomena.

The founder of Shudokan Karate, Soke Kanken Toyama (classmate of Funakoshi & others), didn't even look at the way he taught as anything but 'just karate'. Shudokan was just the name of the training hall, just like Shotokan was the name of Funakoshi's training hall. It wasn't until after Toyama died that his students sought to give their style a name, to differentiate it from the rest.

Again...the same wisdom from one of my instructors...fried rice is just fried rice, no matter who's cooking it (or what extra ingredients they happen to throw into it).

Sekai no Karate Do

Jamo

Master J

22-Jul-2003, 05:35 PM

wado-ryu, my specialty, is a quick and very nimble style. It uses many moves to unbalance and topple your opponent.

Isshin ryu uses vertical punches

alman5000

24-Jul-2003, 02:08 AM

Most of karate styles come from kung fu. So most of them are very similar. Some styles are a combination of two or more styles so most styles are very similar.

RedDragon

24-Jul-2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by alman5000
Most of karate styles come from kung fu. So most of them are very similar.

Most karate styles do not COME from Kung fu, but kung fu has lent to some of the techniques used in Karate.

Knight_Errant

24-Jul-2003, 06:56 PM

Main differences between Chinese styles (which is all kung fu means) and Karate:
Lower stance
More emphasis on attack
Less acrobatic, more practical
Or so I'm told.

SoKKlab

24-Jul-2003, 10:42 PM

There's hundreds if not thousands of styles of Chinese Boxing (Kung Fu), so it becomes a bit of minefield when trying to sum up differences between it and Karate, because many Chinese systems are totally different from each other, in their feel, look, intention and use.

What may be more appropriate is a direct comparison between the (mainly) Hokkien styles of Chinese Boxing that Karate comes from, Ie: Ng Cho Kun (5 Ancestors), White Crane, Go Ro Kun etc and the Karate that comes from them (Goju, Uechi etc).

Example the Sanchin Kata in Goju-ryu and the Sanchin Form in Ng Chor Kun (5 Ancestors), as detailed in Alex Co's Book and videos on 5 Ancestors. The two are virtually the same, except the 5 Ancestors Sanchin is smaller in its movements. The book itself should be given a thorough going through by all Goju-ryu stylists.

Most Chinese systems are immensely practical. The ones that are not, tend to be either modern inventions developed as Sport (Most of the Modern Wu-shu forms) or systems that have now become so flowery in their teaching and form, that they have lost touch with the reality of combat.

An example of a Practical style is:
Pak Mei (White Eyebrow) is bone-crunchingly practical, it's a close range full-on system, it just takes quite a while to learn it's true essence, because they have a certain way of breathing which aids power release in their strikes which is very different from the norm.

The body is used as a Bellows to hit with amplified power through specialised breathing that is different to the Sanchin forms. Once learnt, practitioners can develop massively powerful strikes that ring you like a bell, from the inside out.

bishu-ronin

26-Jul-2003, 05:29 AM

did everyone seem to forget uechi-ryu?

btw- thomas vince- the money- i dont agree with that

Andrew Green

26-Jul-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by RedDragon
Most karate styles do not COME from Kung fu, but kung fu has lent to some of the techniques used in Karate.

Actually they do.

Many of the kata are Chinese in origin.

Miyagi, Goju ryu's founder studied in China, as did his instructor.

SoKKlab

26-Jul-2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by RedDragon
Most karate styles do not COME from Kung fu, but kung fu has lent to some of the techniques used in Karate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't believe that still in these days of enlightenment, some Karateka are still falling foul to these Instructor-led myths.

(In)famous Goju-Kai Karateka Steve Morris did major research into Okinawan Karates origins in China and what particular styles Karate had appropriated techniques, Katas etc from. In order to develop his version of Toudi-Kempo.

Now sadly defunct quality Martial Arts magazine Fighting Arts International ran many many articles about Karates Chinese origins.

As mentioned in my above post: The main Hokkien Chinese systems that Karate assimilated techniques, katas and much much more from are Ng Cho Kun (5 Ancestors), Go Ro Kun (Hard/ Soft Style-see the connection?) and White Crane.

There was also a massive amount of raw technique transmitted prior to these specific systems being assimiliated, directly from China to Okinawa by family settlement, trade, Political Missions etc

Okinawa paid a monetary tribute to China for many years before it was invaded by Japan and the close historical links between Okinawa and China, particularly Hokkien province, ensured that major amounts of Chinese culture, traditions etc were assimilated by the Okinawan people.

To suggest otherwise, is to do a major disservice to both the Chinese and the Okinawans and to continue to perpetuate the Japanese lie that was at the heart of Karate. It's wasn't called China hand for nothing, you know...

Goju

22-Aug-2003, 06:29 PM

There are like over 50 styles of karate (many of which are very close too facing extinction) , Earliest forms of karate came from "ti" a form of chinese boxing and when it "okinawanized" it was first known as tode, I suggest the book "Okinawan Karate, styles and secret techniques, revised version"

Mike Flanagan

23-Aug-2003, 01:45 PM

As SoKKlab points out, there are still many unjustifiable myths floating about regarding the origins of karate. But there are some undisputable facts, which anyone who actually takes the time to look through the available literature can confirm for themselves.

1. Most modern Karate developed from the Japanese Karate of the 1930's through to 1950's.
2. Japanese Karate was developed from the Okinawan martial traditions of the late 19th and early 20th century.
3. Nowadays some of the karate taught in Okinawa owes more to the Japanese rather than the Okinawan versions of the art.
4. Okinawan martial traditions of the 19th century and earlier were influenced heavily by Chinese martial arts.

Further it seems likely that Chinese martial arts had a significant influence over the Okinawan traditions for several hundred years at least. Some Okinawan authorities consider this impact to have been particularly heavy in the 18th and 19th centuries.

It is also likely that Japanese arts have also had some influence. This may have begun as early as the 12th century according to some sources. There are also (unconfirmed) reports of 19th century Okinawan martial artists studying Japanese arts.

So it seems that the Okinawan arts were influenced both by China and Japan, not just once or twice but many times over the last thousand years. Add to this the Okinawans' own creativity and you find that there is not just one 'karate' but many different Okinawan martial traditions each having a vast array of different influences which cannot easily be separated from one another.

Mike

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 01:57 PM

I kicked this thread off initially, because naively, I was interested in how something so seemingly rigid and linear as Karate could be derived from the fluid graceful movements I treasure in the CMA.

I see now that it wasn't all a one way flow, and that Karate isn't all as straight forward as the Shuko Kai and Shotokan that I'd experienced.

Anyone care to comment on the comparison between San Chin and Siu Nim Tao?

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 02:06 PM

You'd be better off comparing Sanchin's big brother - Tensho, with the Wing Chun form.

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 02:08 PM

Fire away.

I just saw some similarities, and wondered where it all came from.

Tensho?

Links?

Mpegs?

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 02:13 PM

I'll show you next time your here Andy :D

Think of Tensho as an open handed Sanchin - complete with hand positions and wrist movements very similar to SLT's Tan-sao / ****-sau / wu-sau roll.

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 02:16 PM

That's what I've seen then, but where did it come from?

Some Okinawan seeing Wing chun or some Chinese guy seeing Tensho?

What application is known for Tensho, as there's millions for the first WC form?

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 02:21 PM

Tensho was made by Chojun Miyagi in the 1940's containing much of the original open hand form of Sanchin and some ideas he'd read about in the bubishi text.

As for applications - it's been 16 years - I can't remember :D

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 02:25 PM

Ah, the man who forgot more than most people know. :D

Still, it's the history I'm interested in. Where did it come from........China or Japan?

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 02:28 PM

Chojun Miyagi was Okinawan - he was a student of the father of Goju Ryu Karate - Kanryo Higaonna.

Kanryo Higaonna studied his native arts and also travelled and trained in China.

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 02:31 PM

So he could have learned it in Hokkien, or perhaps not?

Need some research time on this one, unless anyone has a shortcut?

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 02:37 PM

Try these Andy

http://www.goyukan.net/history.htm

http://www.grbk.us/history.htm

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 02:48 PM

Seem to be many date anomalies with my own reference material.

This'll take some time.

Thanks for the links Yoda.

paul paterson

23-Aug-2003, 06:56 PM

Osu,

Sanchin Kata;
This kata is the oldest kata in karate-do. Loosely sanchin means "three points", "three phases", or "three battles".

Tensho Kata;
This means "rolling hands" or "fluid hand" it has similar conitations to that of Sanchin's three points, again this too is an old kata and not from the war period. Take note that Tensho just like Sanchin did have open hand and fist virations, think on the line of Wing-Chun and then you will see what I mean both in method and history.

There has been much debate about the origins of karate and the Okinawa people.

The Japanese were the first to see the military importance Okinawa, they passed it and sometimes would enter the town of Naha due to its good anchorage. These contacts and those made by the Chinese led to the steady flow and sophistication of the Okinawan people. In the late 13th century Buddhism was introduced from Japan. Okinawa had become divided into three kingdoms that were at war with each other by 1340 and a decade later the largest kingdom entered into a formal relationship with China which was confirmed by the Chinese Emperor in 1372.

Around the year 1470 the collapse of the Sho Dynasty had gave rise to a political upset. Seven years later the new Sho Dynasty was started and the new king called Sho Shin had to deal with the rebellious war lords. One of the first things the new king did was to ban the carraying of swords and other weapons, these were placed in the castle in Shuri.

The Okinawan tradition of "te" - the martial way of the hand, is known but in fairness the true records of such were destroyed during WW2 thus the main and only way of research has been way of mouth through the fathers and sons of the masters. Karate as we know it today, is a product of a synthesis that took place in the 18th century between the native Okinawan art of "te" and the Chinese art of "Shaolin Temple Boxing" as well as the many other arts of the Southern "way" of Fukien Provence. "Te" is thought to be at least 1000 years old, those Okinawans of that time were not rich but were farmers, weapons were hard to come by and self-defence was a way that was drilled into them. By the 15th century the Okinawans were well travelled and began to see many styles of other fighting arts and then began to mix with their own. Okinawa's own style, however, is unique, and foreign influences have always been modified to conform with Okinawan fighting ways. Chief among them is the use of the hand (te) and that of the closed fist.

When the king, Sho Shin, disarmed the nobles and gathered them into the castle of Shuri, it is belived that two movements were born. On one hand the nobles sought out and learned as well as develop the way of "te". On the other hand you had the poor, farmers and fishermen who began to develop the art of "Ryukyu" and "bujutsu" thus the flail, sickles and boat paddles came to be used.

The first recorded show of Chinese martial arts in Okinawa took place in 1761 and by the 19th century the art of "te" was changed to "T ang-te" or Chinese hand.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

ps. the Bubishi's only non-oriental holder is that of Sensei Chris Clifford.

Mike Flanagan

23-Aug-2003, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by paul paterson
Osu,

Sanchin Kata;
This kata is the oldest kata in karate-do. Loosely sanchin means "three points", "three phases", or "three battles".

Hi Paul

Do you some literature reference to say that Sanchin is the oldest kata? I've heard the claim of Seisan and of Naihanchi, but not of Sanchin. I understand that Kanryo Higaonna learnt Sanchin (or its predecessor) in China in the 1870's. Certainly it couldn't have been much earlier as Higaonna was only born in 1853 or therabouts. So Sanchin only entered the Okinawan traditions in the late 19th century. Surely there are older extant kata than that? I have reason to believe that several of the Shorin kata pre-date this.

Mike

paul paterson

23-Aug-2003, 07:18 PM

Osu,

Hello, Mike.

Having been lucky enough to have come through certain karate schools like yourself the history has been passed on from the founder of those schools plus there are some very well know publications out there that do claim that Sanchin is the oldest. Each school will say this and that but to find the answer you will have to go back into the depths of the Chinese arts. But then I am no scholar in martial arts history, the way is the art and the art is life...

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

Goju

23-Aug-2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by YODA

Think of Tensho as an open handed Sanchin - complete with hand positions and wrist movements very similar to SLT's Tan-sao / ****-sau / wu-sau roll. [/B]

Kata Tensho is (i think) about 10 times easier to learn and demonstrate than kata sanchin with it's dynamic tension movements and black belts punching and kicking u while you're performing, I'm only an orange belt and tensho is a blue belt kata but I know it better than sanchin already

Mike Flanagan

23-Aug-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by paul paterson
Having been lucky enough to have come through certain karate schools like yourself the history has been passed on from the founder of those schools plus there are some very well know publications out there that do claim that Sanchin is the oldest. Each school will say this and that but to find the answer you will have to go back into the depths of the Chinese arts. But then I am no scholar in martial arts history, the way is the art and the art is life...
Hi Paul

I'm far more familiar with the history of the Shorin systems rather than the Shorei systems. Could you point me in the direction of the publications you mention above?

Also, are you saying that Sanchin as an Okinawan training tool is the oldest? Or are you saying that Sanchin has a long history in Chinese traditions (ie. before Higaonna learnt it)?

Mike

Mike Flanagan

24-Aug-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Anyone care to comment on the comparison between San Chin and Siu Nim Tao?

Hi Andy

I've never learnt Siu Nim Tao, so I can't really comment from the point of view of a practitioner of that form. However, some things seem obvious. Both forms emphasise the use of what I would call an 'inner circular stance', with the feet pigeon toed. The way the legs are tensed in Sanchin is of great importance. I couldn't comment on the comparison of the stance used in Siu Nim Tao. As Yoda pointed out, there seem to be more similarities between the WC form and the karate kata Tensho. Tensho uses the same inner circular stance as Sanchin but the hand techniques are more similar, at least at a first glance, to those of Siu Nim Tao.

I'm not very knowledgeable on the history of Naha-te Karate, the tradition to which these kata belong, but I can give you some info from Mark Bishop's 'Okinawan Karate' a widely consulted and recognised text. The following information is all drawn from this text.

Kanryo Higaonna (1853-1917) studied at the school of Ryu Ryu Ko in Fuchou. He learnt Sanchin (or at least a predecessor of it) at this school, as well as the principles of Hsing-i from Ryu Ryu Ko's assistant, Wan Shin Zan.

Chojun Miyagi (1888-1953) studied with Higaonna. His karate was also influenced by a Chinese practitioner of southern White Crane, known as Gokenki. He devised Tensho kata, supposedly developing it from a White Crane form known as Rokkishu.

Did Higaonna create the Sanchin we know today from scratch? Or rather how close was it to the form he learnt in Fuchou. Well, in another branch of Naha-te, known as Ryuei-ryu, Sanchin is also practiced. But this Sanchin supposedly comes from Ryu Ryu Ko by a totally different route (via the Okinawan Norisato Nakaima). This Sanchin is apparently very similar to Higaonna's. A further branch, Uechi Ryu also has a (not quite as similar) Sanchin. This system was founded by Kanbun Uechi (1877- 1948) after studying Pangai-noon (Pan Ying Jen or Pan Ying Gut), also in Fuchou.

So from this it does seem that Sanchin originated in China. On the other hand I have heard the same claim for the katas Naihanchi and Seisan. To date though I have never seen a Chinese version of any of these kata. So my suspicion is that any forms underwent considerable change in going from China to Okinawa, and that similarities between different Okinawan versions are most likely due to cross-fertilisation in Okinawa itself.

Unfortunately there is very little documentary evidence and a great deal of handed down information that is impossible to independently verify. It is very difficult to see direct connections between speficic Chinese and Okinawans arts.

Mike

SoKKlab

24-Aug-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
Did Higaonna create the Sanchin we know today from scratch? Or rather how close was it to the form he learnt in Fuchou. So from this it does seem that Sanchin originated in China.

Unfortunately there is very little documentary evidence and a great deal of handed down information that is impossible to independently verify. It is very difficult to see direct connections between speficic Chinese and Okinawans arts.
Mike

Once again Gentlemen I point you towards Joseph Cho's book 5 Ancestors (Ngo Chor Kun) on the 5 Ancestors style of Chinese Boxing and video series of the same title (Unique). There is a direct comparison section between the Sanchien/ Sanchin katas as found in 5 Ancestors and as found in Goju-ryu. They are virtually the same, except some of the Goju-ryu movements are bigger and you can Clearly see that the Goju kata came from the 5 Ancestors.

Also get hold of back issues of Terry O'Neill's 'Fighting Arts International', loads of stuff in their over the years about systems that had an 'influence' over Okinawan Karate, including Gan Ro Chuan/ Tai Chor/ Yung Chun/ White Crane etc. Well worth reading and keeping for research.

PhilS

22-Jun-2006, 12:05 PM

[BUMP!]

I go along with the above by SoKKlab regarding the origins of Sanchin/Sanchien/Saamchien being of Southern Chinese Origin. A majority of the influences of Okinawan Karate came from the Fukien/Fuchou area with people such as Kanryu Higashionna [a student of Ryuruko] and Gokenki either introducing or as in the case of Gokenki, re-introducing these chinese forms to the Ryukyus.

Ruryu Ko is known to have taught 5 quan (kata): Happoren, Nepai, Doonquan, Roujin, and Qijing. Happoren is in fact Sanchin as its meaning of eight steps relates directly to this Kata.

Whether sanchin is in fact the oldest karate kata is debateable as other kata to consier might be those above as they are all from the same system of what is essentially White Crane [Hakutsuru] boxing from Southern China. Kanryu Higashionna [Higaonna] however did not begin his apprenticeship with him until around 1874 so he would not have learnt what is now taught as Sanchin in its various form until after this period.

Sokon Matsumura pre-dates Higashionnas involvement into the development of karate kata by some 50 years at least [having been born in 1797 and having started training under Tode Sakugawa at a very early age]. We can look to some of the Matsumura versions of kata as being reflective of some of the oldest for this reason. Matsumura himself studied under both Takahara Peichin [1683 - 1760] and after that also with the Chinese Envoy, Koshokun [Kushanku]. Kata such as Matsumura Kosokun are therefore very early forms of Karate kata that may pre-date the modern form of Sanchin as we now now it.

Sakugawa also travelled to China to study Kempo under Koshokun and returned to Okinawa in 1762 to begin teaching what he had learnt.

Prior to even this, Chatan Yara [1668 - 1756] travelled to Fukien\China in order to learn Chinese Kempo and weaponry and stayed there for 20 years. His teacher was Wong Chung-Yoh.

Interestingly, most of these early pioneers of Karate have both Karate forms and also weapons forms named after them. Kobujutsu is known to have been developed in its current form about 400 years ago which correlates to the same development of early karate. Kata such as Chatan Yara no Sai immediately spring to mind and must,by definition be of this vintage. Chatan Yara Kosokun [Kushanku] may be attributed to Chatan Yara and is probably one of the earliest if not THE earliest Okinawan Karate Kata.

Sanchin is common to 5 Ancestors [late 19thC], White Crane [c1700], and Tiger-crane Paired form. The Okinawan connection with sanchin is that of the White Crane route already mentioned.

HTH

Phil S