Tae Kwon do: Whats wrong

[Vdiddy]

Well to introduce myself hey I am a first Dan in tae Kwon DO. I have been training for 4 years and just recently acquired by black belt. Recently, after much excessive thought I discovered the weaknesses and problems with Tae Kwon Do.

To start of from the begging the system of teaching in Tae Kwon is at fault. Sciencetific studies have proven that people learn better in a relaxed enviroment. Why then do we practice this modern form of fightin a militeristic eviroment dominated by the use of sir and mam?

Secondly, the principles of Tae Kwon are also skewed. The style requires complete submission into ones teacher without questioning the reasons behind the technique. This contradicts every modern form of education, science, and principle known to the academic world. Questioning and argument drives development as weak techniques can be thrown out and efficient ones brought in.

Next the style is almost entirely based upon kicks. I am fond of kickin as it may be useful, but its inefficient. Kicking requires extensive streching in class before actual performance, and also it takes to much time to bring a kick up to an opponents head. When the foot is broought up to the attackers head the defender is off-balanced, also its not natural for the leg to come up that high. This proves the inefficeincy of using a kick in a real life scenario.

Tae Kwon do also has a series of blocks and attacks taught to students which will never be used on the street. Stances such as the crane stances, and techniques like jump spin hook kick will never be applied on the street so whats the use in practing them. Also high blocks and low blocks are not used in sparring and since sparring is "supposed" to be the bridge to real world, the blocks are not usedfull. Also Tae kwon do works on set stances, examples are square stance, T-stance, Fighting T-stance, Song su suto, etc. None of these stances will ever be used on the street, so why practice them. Even the live onguard stance seems to be inefficient as the shifting of body weight in it telegraphs your movements.

The way blocking is taught is also unpracticle. We are taught to do a specific block for a specific technique. High block goes to a hight punch, low block goes to a low punch, outside blocks goes to a ridge hand. Well thats good but what if you misread and the person throws a midsection punch while you do a low block. Tae kwon do should work on clearing the perimeter rather then forcing students to memorize specific blocking movemnts appiclabe to only specific scenarios.

Although it is fun, sparring is also pointless. On an actual street fight there are two mentalities, or rahter two ways of fighting. The defenders mentality is "I want to get a safe place as soon as possible." THis includes running away or defending with quick counterstrikes and then running away. The atacker metnatlity is "I wanna hurt this guy i dont care what happens to me i want to hurt this guy and take his money." THis leades him/her to be constantly attacking, and have an aggresive form of fighting. Sparring completly ignores this setting as it devlopes the mentality of I wanna tag him more then he tags me. Or I wanna tag him before he tags me. The two are not actually practing real life situations just a violent game of tag.

While many of my comments may seem hateful, I am not against Tae Kwon DO. It may possibly be that I had a bad teacher, or that im not "strong" enought to handle the military training. Tae Kwon has provided me with innumerable benifits such as physical fitness, determination, flexibilty, and a general awareness. I dont necessarily feel the form or rather fighting style is at a flaw I just feel that it needs to be modernized. I also don't intend this to be a hateful message of any sort as I plant to continue my training. I simply wanted to attempt to understand what others felt about my views and there experiences with this great but traditional form of fighting.

[pocketwarrior]

That's where there is a huge difference between martial arts and self defence, because they are two different things.

I am not knocking any martial art all that I'm saying is that you must understand that not all martial arts will prepare you for street scenarios.

[Chris J.]

:)

BIG smile.
You have stumbled (or not) on something that is missing from ALL karate styles of the more modern ilk. Older systems are not like that at all. There has been a discussion on this forum that covers this in great depth; you could look for topics on TKD or Shoto-Kan, or search through posts of my name only.

-Chris J.

[KickChick]

Obviously you have some personal "issues" . Your post reeks of it!

All of a sudden you have come to this "realization" that yhe TKD that you are personally training in is not all that its "cracked up to be" in your opinion?:confused:

If you feel it needs to be modernized than train elsewhere in a different style... it took you 4 years and a black belt at that to diss all that you have earned?

Oh there is such a thing as American Modern Tae Kwon do.. believe it or not. A whole lot of different styles of Tae Kwon do out there... but then again you should know that shouldn't you??
:D

But hey stop by "TKD Check In" maybe we can "save" you!

[Artikon]

I have much to say to some of your more askew comments, unfortunately not much time right now, so I'll try to post them tomorrow, but in the meantime look for different ways to do techniques, other reasons why things may be done. Not everything in TKD is done soley for practical self defense purpose but, may be part in parcel with a skill that may be used in SD.

[TheBorderer]

I agree with you KickChick (and not just cos you happen to be a "hard as nails" 2nd BB moderator! :D)

To learn something to then diss it is on, surely if you had doubts in doing Tae Kwon Do, why did you continue? So you could have a fancy Black Belt?

Even tho I am only green tags in ITF(UKTA) TKD, I still think it's disrespectful to be disrispectful, ironically you are taking the 'value' of what you earned! Ok I admit, that Tae Kwon Do, as with every other MA, does indeed have it's limits and I acknowledge that, but with that said I enjoy Tae Kwon Do and feel that if i ever ever ever{repeat to fade...} had to use it, it would serve me well enough to at least get away (as I'm not one for fighting as folk around me should know!). As far as "mainly kicking" goes, that depends on the 'style' of Tae Kwon Do (tho maybe there shouldn't be a 'style' of TKD and only one, but then as everyone, such as yourself have different ideas, then you are very lickly to have variations), in the style I do, ok there are a lot of kicks, but there are hand techniques in it too.

Well thats good but what if you misread and the person throws a midsection punch while you do a low block

I'd say that (of course in my opinion) could happen for any MA with any block, there's always the possibillity you will get the block totally wrong and they hit you! (of course you could still get the block wrong and still block)

Tae Kwon has provided me with innumerable benifits such as physical fitness, determination, flexibilty, and a general awareness.

Thats good! I feel that too, also of course if you did overall happen to enjoy training and the class you were in then I'd say that too counts for a lot. I've seen a few threads on MA's "in da street" and what I've seen is really just "don't get there in the first place", my instructor says the same that at our level we really begin to just learn 'distances' so we can just stay away from it and then leg it "Descrection is the better part of valour" some would say.

Long post I know, but aint been on MAP a lot ages and thought I'd just add my 2 (or maybe even 4) pence(cents) worth. :)

EDIT: Re-read your post so I see you are just asking, so I hope you don't think I'm like being :woo: at you, just cos you said you didn't think TKD as a whole in your expereience was good or useful, I admit I'm fortunate that I have had a good experience of it so far! :)

[MandrilBorracho]

I'd say that most of your points are characteristics of your own experience; mine is quite different. In the dojang I train in, there's a very friendly, relaxed attitude; the teacher is really accesible, etc...
The kicking issue you raise, well, i think TheBorderer nailed it, it might have to do with the particular style of your school, rather than Tae Kwon Do as a whole (which i consider to be a reasonably well rounded style, with emphasis in kicking).

[flyingblackbelt]

from your post you seem to be taking the wrong attitude at martial arts in general. The martial environment is structured because it works, i dont care how much research youve seen or heard it works. Ive personally seen people with add benefit greatly from martial arts because of the structured environment and i think youll find that most psychologists agree. Now, you really have wasted your time if you think that the blocks are only supposed to block specific moves. Thats the way they're taught because thats the easiest way to learn them, once you have them down you should be able to use them at will and you know everyone is human and will misread a kick or a punch every once and a while, especially against an experienced martial artist.

[Kof_Andy]

Good Lord you been training for 4 years to get your black belt, and you still havent see the pro's and con's in TKD? I'm sorry to say, but this tells a lot about your training experience. Why bother to take a style you feel complete doubt on? Just so you can say your a black belt????:confused: I'm 4th degree in TKD, been doing it since I was young. Also been cross training, through many different style. Have competed in TKD, Boxing, and free style fighting regularly. I would not say TKD is street practical, but I would not say this style is useless on the street. :eek:

Quote "Secondly, the principles of Tae Kwon are also skewed. The style requires complete submission into ones teacher without questioning the reasons behind the technique. This contradicts every modern form of education, science, and principle known to the academic world. Questioning and argument drives development as weak techniques can be thrown out and efficient ones brought in. "


You are speaking base on your TKD experience with your teacher. Who said TKD require complete submission to ones teacher without logic and reason behind the technique? Every technique the teacher teach usually have logic behind it, whats it for, why this why that. All you have to do is ask, if you dont understand it or disagree. Speak up and say so infront of your teacher. I bet your teacher will gladly show your how it can be use effectivly.


Quote "Next the style is almost entirely based upon kicks. I am fond of kickin as it may be useful, but its inefficient. Kicking requires extensive streching in class before actual performance, and also it takes to much time to bring a kick up to an opponents head. When the foot is broought up to the attackers head the defender is off-balanced, also its not natural for the leg to come up that high. This proves the inefficeincy of using a kick in a real life scenario. "


Yes is not natural for the leg to bring up that high, but thats where stretching comes in. Inorder to Kick effectively it requires insane amount of strength and flexbility in your legs, but it dosent mean you have to stretch right before you fight or kick. Thats why is wise that you stretch regularly, so you can throw kicks out cold without any kind of stretch. Or do front split, side split without any kind of warm up.
:cool:


Quote" Tae Kwon do also has a series of blocks and attacks taught to students which will never be used on the street. Stances such as the crane stances, and techniques like jump spin hook kick will never be applied on the street so whats the use in practing them. Also high blocks and low blocks are not used in sparring and since sparring is "supposed" to be the bridge to real world, the blocks are not usedfull. Also Tae kwon do works on set stances, examples are square stance, T-stance, Fighting T-stance, Song su suto, etc. None of these stances will ever be used on the street, so why practice them. Even the live onguard stance seems to be inefficient as the shifting of body weight in it telegraphs your movements. "


Those blocks are basic 1 2 3, just like math. For example how are you suppose to do math without knowing the basic times table. Those basic blocks in TKD we teach are exactly that. Yes I agree, upper block, outside block will almost never be used in a fight, but you have to look at what you learn from doing those blocks. Each of those block might be stupid and worthless, but each teach you one specific thing. For example all blocks, teachs you chambering which may seem useless, but by using both hand you learn ambidexterity, and gain cordination from doing that. Crane stance what are you talking about? Karate Kid? Crane stance is not a TKD stance. Squat stance build your leg muscle which require for kicking, which is why MAist practice them all day all night. Hook kicks, and jump spin kicks require a lot of flexability do it effectivly. Do you expect ppl to do it on street? Who fights on the street? Thugs, muggers, teenage punks. How an earth will they know how to use it. I have 9 KO through my career, and all 7 of them are by using spin kicks. You have no idea how fast, and how stronge they can be when exected at the right time.


Quote "Although it is fun, sparring is also pointless. On an actual street fight there are two mentalities, or rahter two ways of fighting. The defenders mentality is "I want to get a safe place as soon as possible." THis includes running away or defending with quick counterstrikes and then running away. The atacker metnatlity is "I wanna hurt this guy i dont care what happens to me i want to hurt this guy and take his money." THis leades him/her to be constantly attacking, and have an aggresive form of fighting. Sparring completly ignores this setting as it devlopes the mentality of I wanna tag him more then he tags me. Or I wanna tag him before he tags me. The two are not actually practing real life situations just a violent game of tag. "

Huh? 2 Mentality? My dad teaches Wing Chun, and self defense, so I know a bit on this field. Mugger wants money thats all, they are more nervious than you are in mose cases. Nervousness and anger cause your body to freeze or react without clear though. Violent dont usually start, unless you try to fend off the attacker ineffectivly. Which give you a chance for first strike. With those odds how do you expect them to fight street effective vs someone who been trained say like TKD. The defender should focus on surviving at all cost, wether you will injurie them or not, that should not be a matter. If your going to be soft about it your going to end up being the victim here.

I really dont see what you mean by saying sparring is pointless? Sparring takes many forms. No contact point sparring, semi contact, and full contact, but there all different animals. Maybe you guys practice tag game, no contact point sparring, I dont know. Anyway tell me why and how it is pointless? Sparring teachs you how to read movement, how to move in and out, and how to counter certain movement. How else are you suppose to get the practice, and simulation of a real fight without sparring countless hours? Just because you put the word street in front dosent make it practical.:mad:


You obviously have too much doubt, and no understanding at all in TKD. I have no idea why you kept doing it, even so you think is inpractical and completely worthless. Can it possibly be that you just dont practice it right, maybe it dosent suit your body type? Your post is a complete insult to TKD, to your school and to your teacher. I held my breath, with one eye brow raised while replying this. I apologize if my post seemed a bit straight foward.

[47Ronin]

Maybe he has always noticed these problems and has just stated them now, could it be possible? :D

Welcome to MAP by the way.

[neryo_tkd]

well...i'll make this very short and say that i disagree with ur views on TKD.

it does not mean that all over the world TKD is trained the way it is trained in ur dojo, or that all other instructors teach it the way ur instructor does....get my point?????

i agree with what Kickchick said.

[craigwarren]

I think you're looking for things in aspects of TKD that shouldnt really be there and thats dissapointing you.

For one thing you mention how useless sparring is in the street. Its not ment to be street fighting practice. Sparring is a small game, where we aim for targets on the opponents body in order to score points. If it where ment to be for fighting, we wouldnt have target areas, it would simply be a fight till someone was KO'd.

You also mentioned that no one questions the techniques they are showed. I think that must be your school in general as i have a habbit of questioning everything i dont understand, even though most of the time my instructor will end up convinsing me thatn what he said is correct, its still good for me as it helps me feel that what im learning is correct.

Perhaps you need to discuss how you feel about this with your instructor, but i doubt if you are really as downhearted as you say, after all if you felt this way all the time you couldnt have reached a 1dt Degree.

good luck, just enjoy Taekwon-Do

[popop]

well, i've actually never practiced tkd in order to be efficient in street fights. That's why most of the args don't really touch me.

As tkd is a martial art, not (only) a fighting sport, it allows people to practice (almost) at their own speed and rythm. I don't know any teacher who would 'break' his student by forcing him to do some pretty hard exercices. That's just not the point.
Everything is about fun in tkd, isnt it ?

yeah that was my first post ^^

[KickChick]

Originally posted by popop
Everything is about fun in tkd, isnt it ?

yeah that was my first post ^^


Welcome to MAP popop... stop and post in the TKD Forum in the "TKD Check In" thread so that we can add you to our list of TKDoists!

[beth]

TKD certainly has its limits in street application, but most schools I have ever been exposed to have practical self-defense training as part of their curriculum. It sounds like this might be specific to your school and instructors. I believe the use of sir and maam is not a militaristic characteristic (heehee) but denotes respect. I feel very comfortable asking my instructors questions and questioning how techniques are done. I have taken 2 styles of TKD that do many things different from each other and I really enjoy that variety and what each has to offer. If you are looking for something that is just about street fighting, maybe American Street Karate, Krav Maga, Sambo, or other grappling arts/sports might be more appropriate. The art in martial arts is very important to me and I think a lot of other practitioners. I feel confident in my abilities to defend myself, and that comes from TKD, but I also derive great pleasure from the artistic and philisophical side of my training. Maybe it is just an issue of instructors.

[Vdiddy]

Well, it seems that my original post has caused a comotion amongst the TKD community. I also plan to answer a few questions

The leading question seems to be, "why did you continue Tae Kwon Do." For one, my parents had invested many dollars into the pracitce of TKD and they wanted me to graduate with at least a blackbelt. They felt that it would be a waist to simply quit after 2-3 years so with that constant influence I reluctantly advanced in my training. Also, this doubt which I had in the techinques of Tae Kwon Do didnt suddenly develop, but rather it was a gradual progression which probably began in my 3rd year of training. I was however not able to start explaining it or rather articulating it until about a month ago when I participated in a Wing Chun class. The information which I acquired in one class was unbelievable, I was exposed to the science behind the martial arts. We discussed body mechanics, the "centerline theory", grounding an attack, trapping, etc. I was also shown 4 blocks -(this was after a few more days of traiing), tan sao, pak sao, guan sao, and die jong which could be used for all major forms of a punch. That is high hook, high punch, low hook, low punch. Wing Chun focuses on effieciency, simplicity, and practicality, if a techique doesn't meet those requirements its thrown out. I was shown a live stance in which the least amount of telegraphing is expressed when moving. Also, the form and the way of teaching was unbelievable, it was relaxed. There was no yes sir, no sir, even though respect was still required, a more cordial relationship was presented between the higher and lower ranks. I questioned everything to the death, and as I do seem to be a sophist, suprisingly recieved answers which actually convinced me of the power of such technique. All of the stances, blocks, and kicks taught in wing chun are actually used on the street. I was told that now defensive fight should last over 3 seconds your opponent should be neutralized and you should be out of there. We focused on speed through the harnessing of startle, and using emotions such as the monster dark side in times of defense. We also ended the class with mediation in which I was brought into a soothing relaxed state of mind.
Wing Chun is all about the science behind the martial arts.

Also to answer some other questions regardin TKD. Yes I did question the instructors techniques, and they happly answered them, but they answers I recieved were not convincing. I got answers like "Becuase it adds more power" or "This is a very traditional technique which you would not use on the street" or " because its more effective." Well, why is it more effective, why does it add more power. Also for the person who mentioned Krav Maga, well krav maga is also taught at our studio I was expose to that. I didnt enjoy because I felt it relied to much on brute force, and i'm not a very strong person.

I plan to pursue and Wing chun, and compare it to my experiences with TKD. Then, i hope to mesh the two styles and keep the techniques from both which I feel to be the most effective. I'm curious however to the experience of other cross trainers in the martial arts whose sole form is still TKD.

[flyingblackbelt]

ive actually been training in hung gar because the captain of the martial arts team at my school does hung gar and i think you have the right approach in melding the two styles together, but i still think that tae kwon do has more to it then you are realizing.

[popop]

Vdiddy >well, it seems that you've just found a martial art that sticks to your personnality and desire, that's great !
I also have a friend who left the dojang to turn himself into a viet vo dao art martialist, he also enjoyed the "spiritual" aspect which is not developped in tkd. Yet he didn't really blamed tkd for not being The art he was looking for.
Even if there is no "meditation phase" during tkd classes, there is a hudge (and important) work on breathing.

Nevertheless, I also think that TKD alone lacks something, and it's always a good thing to practice other martial arts. But I do it to increase my knowledges of tkd, not to replace them by others. Let's say tkd is my "base" to explore martial arts

[VillageIdiot]

Well I'm not sure what to say that hasn't been said already. As far as the Sir, Ma'am thing. That's not to make it strict, it's just to show respect. I suppose you preffer not to bow also. I bet you don't going into an interview for a job, walk in and say, Hey Bob, I'm here for a job. If you want the Job, you walk in shake there hand as a sign of respect, and say Mr Johnson, I'm here to get a job. It's like please and thank you.

Next, TKD isn't very in tune with street fighting. While it's been posted once, and it's been posted again, any MA vs. Gun, you LOSE! The point in taking TKD (or any MA) is not to learn how to fight. And if that's what you go in for, then you need to give your head a shake. In modren times, it's as simple as GUN wins EVEYTIME!

A wise man once told me, when you know you can win the fight, there is no point in fighting it.
Meaning when you train in the right frame of mind, you grow confidence. And once you have SELF confidence, you don't need to prove yourself to anyone else. You have to knowledge that had you fight you would win. So you can walk away, with your head held high!

[Kwajman]

Hmmmm, kickchicks right as usual. There are issues to be sorted out. I think most martial artists are honest in the evaluation of their art. There are weaknesses and strengths in all of them. The true self defense experts realize that and generally cross train to balance out the weaknesses. Those of us who are in the sport for other reasons, self-discipline, for example. Realize if we're just in the street, we're going to possibly be in real trouble. Myself, I like the run away method of martial arts. Actually, I may not win in a fight, but the attacker is going to be hurting a lot even if he wins.

[Holgate]

No martial art is perfect, it's a fact of life, what suits one will not suit another. But that's no reason for anyone to go stamping over anothers art claiming it's in effective. If your in a school which dosen't allow questioning then leave, it's as simple as that, find another school which allows YOU to develop.

Yes there are problems with the self defence aspect of TKD, there are some moves which would simply not work in a real sitution, but then the beauty of TKD is that they can be adapted and made to work.

But the real secret is TKD, Karate, Kung Fu...whatever gives the practitioner confidence, the best form of self defence, after all if you look confident and feel confident then you are less likely to be attacked in the first place.

Yes there are weeknesses in TKD, but you are in a position as we all are to strengthen them and make the art stronger, just running away and complaining about it.

If you are practicing Wing Chun as well you will know the vast diffrences between the two arts on the outside, but remember on the inside they both come from the same source and what you learn in Wing Chun can be used in TKD even if it is the use of internal energy and Chi alone which will make you a better fighter in the long term

As for the excuse of doing it because your parents were paying for it and they expected you to get a black belt...sorry but that's just lame on you and your parents for thinking that TKD is all about getting a black belt and nothing else.

[Thomas]

A style is not necessarily to blame if the practioners of it can't make it work. If you, as a 1st dan, don't feel confident in your abilities in Taekwondo to make it work, then that raises a big warning flag... not for Taekwondo, but for yourself. It means that either YOU haven't studeied as you were supposed to or it means that you weren't taught as you were supposed to be.

Keep in mind that the transition to 1st dan in Taekwondo can be a disappointing thing for many people... to work so hard to finally attain a "black belt", only to realize that the rank of "black belt" does not make one a great martial artist. 1st dan is a great place to be because it is the beginning of concentrated training, of taking those techniques you have practiced so hard from white belt and to start applying them and learning how they work beyond simple learning. 1st dan entails a great deal of work and is merely the beginning of a new stage of learning.

The issues you bring up may or may not be valid... FOR YOUR OWN SCHOOL. They do not necessarily apply across to other schools. Come to my school and see, the invitation is open (PM me). If there are problems, why don't you fix them? You mention cross-training... good. Learn new ways to apply your skills and share them. Fix what you see as wrong in your TKD school and fix what you feel is missing from yourself. Cross training should make you more open-minded as well...

It's one thing to rant about your own perceived inadequecies but to blame an entire martial style for it is a bit much...

[Silver Dragons]

Im beginning to get bothered by the fact that if somebody brings up a flaw in an art, especially TKD(which seems to be the most attacked art around here) homers of this art come flying in obviously hurt in a personal way or something. TKD is cool and everything but jeez people, theres no denying what it is and isnt! From the point of view of self defense TKD can be criticized as seriously lacking however from the point of view of it being a Martial ART it is a great TMA. Beautiful in every way which is why it is so popular.

Since I tend to concentrate more on the self defense aspects of Martial arts I see no reason in using kata or anything like that. But that relates only to MEEE! Some people love kata (its an art people) and hey...i dig watching people do it. I think of it as a sort of concentration enhancer....its great for the mind but not for any type of self defense or even sparring purposes.

Im also turned off by the militaristic attitude of some masters teaching. I believe this is good in children's classes but not for adults. Im disciplined already! I really dont need anybody to tell me to do pushups because I didnt kihap properly! cmon!!

I will give the example of my art which anybody can feel free to criticize. From white to black belt in Hapkido we are taught to learn a myriad of joint locks and techniques. Many of them complicated. Throughout the years I have realized that many of these techniques are too complicated and essentially useless since they are way too risky too pull off in real life self defense situations but hey i learn them anyways cause theyre fun...so what the hell. I believe that for self defense purposes you must keep it as simple as possible and rely on your instinctive motor skills which Martial Arts will help enhance.

So let those who criticize do what they do. Many people feel the same way. Just dont feel that it is some sort of personal attack or something! Like I feel that some of you TKD people see it as that. I think TKD rocks by the way so dont gang up on me.jajajaa!

Ohh and before I leave I just had to get this off my chest......although it might seem a little bit off subject.....for all intents and purposes i think SHOTOKAN SUCKS!!!!(trained at 2 different schools for 2 straight years by the ways so i do have some experience with it) Jaja I know thats gonna get me in trouble but jeeeez that felt good.

[Poop-Loops]

To start of from the begging the system of teaching in Tae Kwon is at fault. Sciencetific studies have proven that people learn better in a relaxed enviroment. Why then do we practice this modern form of fightin a militeristic eviroment dominated by the use of sir and mam?

I can tell you've never been to the military, if you think saying "sir" and "mam" is the only difference between that and a civilian life.

PL

[TkdWarrior]

The leading question seems to be, "why did you continue Tae Kwon Do." For one, my parents had invested many dollars into the pracitce of TKD and they wanted me to graduate with at least a blackbelt.
sigh...
-TkdWarrior-

[bcullen]

Well to introduce myself hey I am a first Dan in tae Kwon DO. I have been training for 4 years and just recently acquired by black belt. Recently, after much excessive thought I discovered the weaknesses and problems with Tae Kwon Do.

Enough said about this paragraph already. Onward to the dissection... ;)

To start of from the begging the system of teaching in Tae Kwon is at fault. Sciencetific studies have proven that people learn better in a relaxed enviroment. Why then do we practice this modern form of fightin a militeristic eviroment dominated by the use of sir and mam?

Relaxed: yes, lax: no. The military feel of many traditional schools stems from them being militarily based (albeit past). Modern armies still train with the same conventions (but, never call an NCO, sir ;) ). Courtesy and respect are always appropriate. Now, if the respect line only runs one way, I suggest you find a new school, quickly.


Secondly, the principles of Tae Kwon are also skewed. The style requires complete submission into ones teacher without questioning the reasons behind the technique. This contradicts every modern form of education, science, and principle known to the academic world. Questioning and argument drives development as weak techniques can be thrown out and efficient ones brought in.

School problem, not a style problem. If you cannot ask questions of what is being taught then there are some ego issues. Start lookin' for the exit.

Next the style is almost entirely based upon kicks. I am fond of kickin as it may be useful, but its inefficient. Kicking requires extensive streching in class before actual performance, and also it takes to much time to bring a kick up to an opponents head. When the foot is broought up to the attackers head the defender is off-balanced, also its not natural for the leg to come up that high. This proves the inefficeincy of using a kick in a real life scenario.

Kicking is inefficient? On average the leg is five times stronger then the arm (unless you walk on your hands all day). After you've done it for a while it doesn't require a warmup to go high. But I digress. Now, I trainned in Moo DuK Kwan so I'm not sure what is taught at an ITF/WTF or other TKD school but GM Kim would admonish us during sparring if we neglected to take an oppurtunity to strike (hands, feet or otherwise) and he always was chiding us with: "You no need kick here (holding hand at head height) You kick here (holding hand at stomach level) then head come down and you kick."

Tae Kwon do also has a series of blocks and attacks taught to students which will never be used on the street. Stances such as the crane stances, and techniques like jump spin hook kick will never be applied on the street so whats the use in practing them. Also high blocks and low blocks are not used in sparring and since sparring is "supposed" to be the bridge to real world, the blocks are not usedfull. Also Tae kwon do works on set stances, examples are square stance, T-stance, Fighting T-stance, Song su suto, etc. None of these stances will ever be used on the street, so why practice them. Even the live onguard stance seems to be inefficient as the shifting of body weight in it telegraphs your movements.

The jumping and spinning kicks carry a great deal of force but are hard to land. Will you use them on the street? Probably not. Will you use the strength, agailty and timing they help develop? Yes. They also come in handy in high level sparring too. Most people wouldn't think I could jump and spin a 180 to land a kick to the head of someone behind me, surprise! I can. As far as stances, I think I know what you are talking about ,but, I'm not exactly sure. Is square like horse stance? Crane I' m guessing is balance stance (similar to Karate Kid) and the T stances, I know quite a few variations of so I need a little more to go on. But In general they are used for conditioning and alignment, like the forms, kata etc... It's not meant to be used exactly as performed.

The way blocking is taught is also unpracticle. We are taught to do a specific block for a specific technique. High block goes to a hight punch, low block goes to a low punch, outside blocks goes to a ridge hand. Well thats good but what if you misread and the person throws a midsection punch while you do a low block. Tae kwon do should work on clearing the perimeter rather then forcing students to memorize specific blocking movemnts appiclabe to only specific scenarios.

Specific blocks? :confused: I've not seen this taught. Alright, I'll take your word on this. I'm with you on this. If it's coming at me I block as needed.

Although it is fun, sparring is also pointless. On an actual street fight there are two mentalities, or rahter two ways of fighting. The defenders mentality is "I want to get a safe place as soon as possible." THis includes running away or defending with quick counterstrikes and then running away. The atacker metnatlity is "I wanna hurt this guy i dont care what happens to me i want to hurt this guy and take his money." THis leades him/her to be constantly attacking, and have an aggresive form of fighting. Sparring completly ignores this setting as it devlopes the mentality of I wanna tag him more then he tags me. Or I wanna tag him before he tags me. The two are not actually practing real life situations just a violent game of tag.

Um, I'll let someone else take this. My experiences in TKD (TSD) sparring were I guess not the standard (i.e. No points, go for the knockout). See thread:http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8581&page=1&pp=15 for more details.

While many of my comments may seem hateful, I am not against Tae Kwon DO. It may possibly be that I had a bad teacher, or that im not "strong" enought to handle the military training. Tae Kwon has provided me with innumerable benifits such as physical fitness, determination, flexibilty, and a general awareness. I dont necessarily feel the form or rather fighting style is at a flaw I just feel that it needs to be modernized. I also don't intend this to be a hateful message of any sort as I plant to continue my training. I simply wanted to attempt to understand what others felt about my views and there experiences with this great but traditional form of fighting.

There are many different varibles not related to TKD as a style here and there's a lot more to a MA then just the fighting. If you're not happy seek what you think you need. Add some boxing, judo, jui jitsu etc... to your repitore. Take seminars focusing on personal protection if that's what you feel you lack.

[hedgehogey]

HEY THIS GUY IS A TRAITOR TO TKD EVERYBODY RAPE HIS FACE HURGBLURG

This is exactly the same thing that happened with the kid who wanted to take BJJ. A person realizes the flaws in their style/training methods and everyone rushes to say "NO YOU OR YOUR TEACHER SUCK NOT YOUR STYLE".

You should encourage his doubts! Doubting and questioning are good in MA and life!

To the original poster: Realizing your own and your style's weakness is the first sure step to true knowledge. A suggestion: Watch style VS style matches with TKD in them. One is available on subfighter.net

You would probably benefit from a more performance based training method, that is one where the doing of fighting through full contact, open rules sparring is more important than pretending to fight by doing forms and playing "tag" sparring, or crosstraining in a style that does that.

[Kenpo Kicker]

We only tag in tournaments (we are not based on tournaments but do em for fun why not) the rest is freestyle sparring. My school does cross train though with bjj (new) filipino arts kali/knife fighting, and kick boxing. Hey whats wrong with bjj anyways? The stuff i'm learning in bjj is pratical and there are some flaws (everything is flawed). I am there to learn it to get off the ground in a fight and have fun playing ground chess :) . Hell they are all fun imo. The fun part matters right? I think to be a good fighter is in the heart and not the style. I think it all depends on how you take in the art. I do not believe in everyone having the same style, so I cross-train. In my regular tkd classes you learn to kick and punch which is not bad at all and you exercise like hell. That alone should help you defend yourself better than nothing and have fun doing it. Who is to say you will get into a fight? The blocks suck, but the tkd guard isn't half bad and mix it with some boxing and it will be good. I think it also matters on how you are taught. I feel pretty free in my sparring at my dojang. We also practice some street drills and use a bit of jkd philosophy. I honestly think bl was right in not bothering to block and intercept instead. We spar hard and lose students because of that and some ppl are afraid and what not. I think some schools just make the style too soft (sparring wise). I can see a difference between the ppl who only do tkd than the rest of us that cross-train at our school. I still think they would do fine against a average street fighter. If your tkd is not working for ya then I would suggest you try some kick boxing or muay thai.

[mountainsage]

I'm with Silver dragon, a number of the TKD folks on this forum are a bit oversensitive about TKD being questioned. IF you are one of these people please seek professional help. If your MA defines you as a person, PLEASE get a life outside of your art. TKD, specifically WTF, is a childs MA. Designed and simplified to the point of being able to train large numbers of children rapidly to compete is sport. Remember that the ROK doesn't recognize TKD as a MA, but a sport. Blocking in TKD has become a lost art because of the sporting aspect. In reality, IMHO, sport has been the cause of most of the problems stated in the original post; poor blocking skills, ineffective jumping spinning kicks, inflated egos. Kata are a way to teach large number of people movement concept and help for training alone. I use a lot of kata or hyung in my training because I have limited access to a training partner. I am in agreement that if you look hard enough yoou can find holes in any style. The difference between a true BB and a want to be is that the true BB finds ways to plug the holes then uses the preception that the art has holes as bait to stomp the snot out of an opponent.

Mountainsage

[mattsylvester]

To start of from the begging the system of teaching in Tae Kwon is at fault. Sciencetific studies have proven that people learn better in a relaxed enviroment. Why then do we practice this modern form of fightin a militeristic eviroment dominated by the use of sir and mam?

People also like to train in a disciplined manner.

Secondly, the principles of Tae Kwon are also skewed. The style requires complete submission into ones teacher without questioning the reasons behind the technique. This contradicts every modern form of education, science, and principle known to the academic world. Questioning and argument drives development as weak techniques can be thrown out and efficient ones brought in.

I've never found this to be the case. I've not always got the answers I like or agreed with but I've never stopped questioning and nor should any student.

and also it takes to much time to bring a kick up to an opponents head. When the foot is broought up to the attackers head the defender is off-balanced, also its not natural for the leg to come up that high. This proves the inefficeincy of using a kick in a real life scenario.

Eh? This proves the inefficiency of using a HIGH kick in a real life scenario. take your skilled high kicks and transfer them to low and you've got nice powerful kicks.

Tae Kwon do also has a series of blocks and attacks taught to students which will never be used on the street. Stances such as the crane stances, and techniques like jump spin hook kick will never be applied on the street so whats the use in practing them. Also high blocks and low blocks are not used in sparring and since sparring is "supposed" to be the bridge to real world, the blocks are not usedfull.


Because they've been taught as blocks when they might actually be armlocks, throws etc. There is a lot of ignorance in TKD and you need to read around the subject.

Also Tae kwon do works on set stances, examples are square stance, T-stance, Fighting T-stance, Song su suto, etc. None of these stances will ever be used on the street, so why practice them. Even the live onguard stance seems to be inefficient as the shifting of body weight in it telegraphs your movements.

Because they're transitory. Every stance should only be held for a short while. Walking/Front stance for example, ***** if you hold it. But, performing outer reaping throw? Great. Sajo Jirugi and Chon Ji are two ideal patterns for teaching throws, knees and closing in on the opponent. IF you know what you're looking for.

The way blocking is taught is also unpracticle. We are taught to do a specific block for a specific technique. High block goes to a hight punch, low block goes to a low punch, outside blocks goes to a ridge hand. Well thats good but what if you misread and the person throws a midsection punch while you do a low block. Tae kwon do should work on clearing the perimeter rather then forcing students to memorize specific blocking movemnts appiclabe to only specific scenarios.

Wrong. They are teaching you the 'ideal' response. At your level you should be able to think beyond 'bugger, wrong block, OUCH' and move on to converting the 'block' into another strike. It's embryonice.

Although it is fun, sparring is also pointless. On an actual street fight there are two mentalities, or rahter two ways of fighting. The defenders mentality is "I want to get a safe place as soon as possible." THis includes running away or defending with quick counterstrikes and then running away. The atacker metnatlity is "I wanna hurt this guy i dont care what happens to me i want to hurt this guy and take his money." THis leades him/her to be constantly attacking, and have an aggresive form of fighting. Sparring completly ignores this setting as it devlopes the mentality of I wanna tag him more then he tags me. Or I wanna tag him before he tags me. The two are not actually practing real life situations just a violent game of tag.

So change the level of sparring. Go full contact, put some protective gear on and do pattern based sparring. Use low kicks.

You've reached the level I did a few years ago due to extensive cross-training and learning under the ADK. I realised that a lot of what was being taught bore no relevance to the other stuff that was being taught. I've dropped 2 and 3 step sparring for example because they're so far removed from reality. My students do pattern-based 1 step sparring from the start.

[Thomas]

This is exactly the same thing that happened with the kid who wanted to take BJJ. A person realizes the flaws in their style/training methods and everyone rushes to say "NO YOU OR YOUR TEACHER SUCK NOT YOUR STYLE".

You should encourage his doubts! Doubting and questioning are good in MA and life!

To the original poster: Realizing your own and your style's weakness is the first sure step to true knowledge. A suggestion: Watch style VS style matches with TKD in them. One is available on subfighter.net

You would probably benefit from a more performance based training method, that is one where the doing of fighting through full contact, open rules sparring is more important than pretending to fight by doing forms and playing "tag" sparring, or crosstraining in a style that does that.

You know, believe it or not but I agree with most of what you are saying. "Doubting and questioning are good in MA and life!" is a good way to look at it. The only thing I disagree with is that a style is at fault. Just joining the local BJJ or MMA school is not going to make you good. You need to put in good hard committed training as well. There are some TMA schools who question and doubt and try to make their training fit their needs. Painting all schools with the same brush is just too general...

"Doubting and questioning are good in MA and life!" means that you don't just switch styles to the most popular one. It means that you look around the local schools and find the one that fits you best. The original poster liked the Wing Chun school he found... and that's good. If he keeps an open mind he can take those four years of hard work in TKD and add it to his new style, instead of throwing it all away.

It is very importnat to question what you are doing and when you find problems it is up to YOU to fix them. Don't blame a style... find yourself a teacher who will help you learn how to fix it.

(By the way, "style vs. style matches" really don't prove much. One should look at the individuals involved, the experience involved, the rules, etc. For example, if I beat up a BJJ white belt does it mean that Taekwondo will always beat BJJ? No.)

[hedgehogey]

You know, believe it or not but I agree with most of what you are saying. "Doubting and questioning are good in MA and life!" is a good way to look at it. The only thing I disagree with is that a style is at fault. Just joining the local BJJ or MMA school is not going to make you good. You need to put in good hard committed training as well. There are some TMA schools who question and doubt and try to make their training fit their needs. Painting all schools with the same brush is just too general...


I didn't tell him to switch schools. I told him to change his training method and crosstrain.


It is very importnat to question what you are doing and when you find problems it is up to YOU to fix them. Don't blame a style... find yourself a teacher who will help you learn how to fix it.

But if he's found flaws in the training methodology he should be able to point them out without everyone raping his face.

(By the way, "style vs. style matches" really don't prove much. One should look at the individuals involved, the experience involved, the rules, etc. For example, if I beat up a BJJ white belt does it mean that Taekwondo will always beat BJJ? No.)

I'd bet on the bjj white belt with six months experience.

[Thomas]

I didn't tell him to switch schools. I told him to change his training method and crosstrain.
Yup... I agree with that


But if he's found flaws in the training methodology he should be able to point them out without everyone raping his face.

Yup, I agree with that... although you have to admit that there tends to be plenty of aggressive posters around who reply to TKD threads here.

I'd bet on the bjj white belt with six months experience

From my point of view, I'd hope you lose that bet. I guess it is at this point where we disagree... I base my opinions more on an individual person than on a style. Styles are very wide and very open, with good and bad practitioners of them.

How would I do in reality against a 6 month BJJ white belt? I don't know, but I would bet that based on my experience and training (keeping in mind my methodology of cross training and the experience that I have) that I should be able to make a pretty good account of myself... and again, it depends on the rules and the stakes as well as the size, strength, conditioning, and experience of the person. The last BJJ student that I worked with taught me a lot... and we each tapped a couple of times. I know he'd trained more than six months in BJJ... as well as quite a bit of Muay Thai and TKD... good student and a good fighter.

As an insytructor I find it so very important NOT to stereotype. I want to train my students to make a good accounting of themselves regardless of who they face... therefore we do lots of different stuff. If someone just stereotypes me or one of my students as a "sport TKDist"... they might have a bit of a surprise.

-Good training

[Hugh]

I know what Vdiddy means. When i was younger i learned Tae Kwon Do for about a year and got up to yellow belt with two green tags. I quit because i felt that Tae Kwon Do was more about getting the next colour belt and competing in tournaments than actual self-defense. I also didnt like the formal, regimented style of training either.

I do Tai Chi now in a much more relaxed and friendly atmosphere and I have to say its a big improvement. I feel much more inspired mentally and physically doing Chinese martial arts. Don't get me wrong, Tae Kwon Do is a great way to get fit, but, IMHO, its faults lie in being too focused on the competitive aspects of martial arts rather than personal development and practical self-defense.

I realise that my opinions are based on my own personal experience and a lot of you will disagree :) just thought I'd offer a point of view

[TkdWarrior]

vdidy u hav spent 4 yrs in TKD and got 1st dan..congrats... for ur information i havn't got 1st dan yet... hell i m still a white belt n training from last 6 yrs before that i practiced Muai Thai for 2 yrs..

u know when i read ur post i saw something which i always see in ppl learning TKD ...
The leading question seems to be, "why did you continue Tae Kwon Do." For one, my parents had invested many dollars into the pracitce of TKD and they wanted me to graduate with at least a blackbelt.
it's their motivations factor... u got ur black belt becuase u HAV INVESTED dollars in it(that's wat most ppl invest)...
if u take me... i have invested MY LIFE and still not a black belt because i have given an important part of my life to learning Martial arts, my quest for Martial arts. my teacher have imparted very advance knowledge to us...

yea i do understand that TKD do have problems, infact every style hav/had some short comings but i don't think if u put ur head into it u can't solve it...
i would prefer if u learn from learning attitude... cuz criticism hinders learning process..

nuff said...
-TkdWarrior-

[Din]

no martial art is perfect but from your post you must have had some bad experience... firstly you practice the moves even though you're not going to use it on the street because you are learning TKD as a martial ART first and self defence second ....
dont confuse martial arts and self defence although they do overlap they are not the same thing.
sparring is not pointless ... it trains us mentally ...
- you learn to react to an opponents attack calmly and quickly.
- you learn how to take blows , recover fast and react to the blow.
- you learn how to control your fear ...
i could go on but i'll stop there.

i think that tkd is pretty balanced in terms of kick and hand techniques although emphasis is placed on kicking. Kicking does not require extensive stretching unless your going to be doing a lot of it, i can kick to an opponents head without any stretching if needed. the reason we do this in class in to avoid cramps or muscle pulls since there will be a lot of kicking. in a real life situation the whole point is to knock down or immobilize the attacker as fast as possible with as few techniques as possible and rarely would you kick to the head in a self def. situation.

[kabba kick]

do i even need to say anything?
anyways in 9th grade me and 2 of my friends got in a REALLY bad locker room fight(no teachers or faculty anywhere) and i used a jump back kick and almost knock this guy out,tha only reason it didn't my foot didn't hit his head directly and in 7th grade i picked a fight with this big kid that was twice my size(typical youngster arrogance) and i got him with 2 round house kicks to the head ,a couple jabs and a side but he got me on the ground and i took a couple punches to the face,i found out later hed been taking boxing bjj and all this other crap for as long as id been taking tae kwon do,moral of the story:you need to stop blaming your weakness on tkd and train harder

on an off note,i became really good friends with the big guy i got in a fight with and we sapred almost on a daily basis in tkd boxing kick boxing ect

if you dont like what your doing find another style and quit complaining

[Mawi]

TKD is turning more in to (points) than combat. Recently I had been in a forum and I said that TKD is not made for combat. Because of this many of the Taekwondo students really got upset about it. But reality is reality no matter what Master you have the art of TKD is one. You would say there are lots of styles of it but from what I have discovered TKD is more of a sport than martial arts. It’s a sport and a sport doesn’t need to have any combat it. A sport is about getting more points than the other person.

Most masters say the snap is power and that you should relax and span your arms and legs as fast as possible. But in reality all that does is make it better for you to strike the hogu and have points. Also Masters tell you that it’s a game not a street fight. My Master is a Korean army 6 star black belt; I have a relationship with him like a father and friend. Many times when I go my hardest he always reminded me that TKD is a sport and the point is get points not to knock your opponent out.

Great thing about Taekwondo is that it helps on your foot work. Foot work means a lot in a ring or a street fight. I love Muay Thai and TKD foot work has gave me some advantages. TKD also gave me respect for my elders and Master and MOM and DAD. The person that said that saying sir and mam is wrong, is a hot head (Vdiddy). Because what ever martial arts you get into there is always respect for your master or teacher.

Vdiddy I don’t know how old you are or how great of a sparer you are but I think you should cross train with other martial arts and get the best results. You should also think more and decide if TKD is for you. No disrespect to all the people that think scoring points helps you win in a street fight but if you want to learn combat learn boxing, kickboxing or Muay Thai.

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

i'm not gonna post RUDE comments on this thread. even though you are bashing tkd. exactly... why are you continueing? you just totally bashed tkd.

[Thomas]

This thread was in hibernation for a little while but I guess it's back.

In my opinion, a martial arts school's goals should match up with the students' expectations. If you want to learn Olympic style TKD for sparring and tournaments and that's what your school teaches... good! But if they focus on this and don't focus on self defence, then you need to remedy it if that's your goal. Check out the thread on styles: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11651

I would recommend that all martial artists (not just TKDists) get out and try a different school (or better yet, another style) at least once. I would even more strongly recommend cross-training with local schools or at seminars. Working with people from a different background will give you new insight and tighten up your own abilities vs the unknown.

Some TKD schools out there do teach skills for practicla self defence. Take a look at this thread for some ideas to incorporate into your own training and share some ideas as well:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11651

[Taliar]

You should practise a martial art, that you enjoy and that fullfills your needs. It sounds like you were pushed into TKD by your parents and that this built up a resentment against the art. But thats down to you and not TKD. It sounds like you didn't really learn alot, from your training for which I am very sorry. TKD is not perfect and like all systems has flaws, but I think its great and enjoy it so I practise.

But what you do is more at the teacher/school level than the art level, We cover ground work, locks, basic throws, submissions and close work. They are not a huge part of our training but we cover them emough to have a familiarity with them. If you think you need more you should cross train, I have done a little ju-jitsu mainly to improve my break falls.

Does this mean that Ju-jitsu is better than TKD beccuase they do breakfalls - NO.
Ju-Jitsu covers only a few striking techniques and did little fitness work. (at the club I trained at) does this make TKD better. NO

End result - all arts have merit but they are different, choose one you like and enjoy it. If your parents made you do TKD you are probably still quite young, as you mature you will hopefully become more broadminded.

[kabba kick]

ha everytime i go out to tournament my dad always says in a real firm voice "this is not game!you have to think about breaking opponents head" he was in the korean army as a mechanic not really a "six star black belt"but went thorugh through some tough training nonetheless

[alex_000]

ha everytime i go out to tournament my dad always says in a real firm voice "this is not game!you have to think about breaking opponents head" he was in the korean army as a mechanic not really a "six star black belt"but went thorugh through some tough training nonetheless

I wonder how he'd feel if you had your head broken in a tournament. Would he congratulate the opponent that broke your head?

[oni_sensei]

TKD is turning more in to (points) than combat. Recently I had been in a forum and I said that TKD is not made for combat. Because of this many of the Taekwondo students really got upset about it. But reality is reality no matter what Master you have the art of TKD is one. You would say there are lots of styles of it but from what I have discovered TKD is more of a sport than martial arts. It’s a sport and a sport doesn’t need to have any combat it. A sport is about getting more points than the other person.

Most masters say the snap is power and that you should relax and span your arms and legs as fast as possible. But in reality all that does is make it better for you to strike the hogu and have points. Also Masters tell you that it’s a game not a street fight. My Master is a Korean army 6 star black belt; I have a relationship with him like a father and friend. Many times when I go my hardest he always reminded me that TKD is a sport and the point is get points not to knock your opponent out.

Great thing about Taekwondo is that it helps on your foot work. Foot work means a lot in a ring or a street fight. I love Muay Thai and TKD foot work has gave me some advantages. TKD also gave me respect for my elders and Master and MOM and DAD. The person that said that saying sir and mam is wrong, is a hot head (Vdiddy). Because what ever martial arts you get into there is always respect for your master or teacher.

Vdiddy I don’t know how old you are or how great of a sparer you are but I think you should cross train with other martial arts and get the best results. You should also think more and decide if TKD is for you. No disrespect to all the people that think scoring points helps you win in a street fight but if you want to learn combat learn boxing, kickboxing or Muay Thai.


Dude, you just exploited yourself as a hypocrite. Are boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai not sports, or have a sporting aspect to them? Do boxing and kickboxing not have a point scoring system? They all allow knockouts, but so does TKD. TKDers train just as hard as anybody else, the only difference being that they compete using different rules. We may not punch to the head in the ring, but we still punch everywhere else you normally would, and that doesn't mean that we don't train to punch to the head.

You say that a sport should have no combat, yet you blatantly suggest that VDiddy cross train in other sports, which you go against your own beliefs and class as forms of "combat".

I'm glad that you realise the benefits of TKD, but wake up to yourself and stop bashing something that's just as good as anything else.

[Lithanwif]

All styles have inherent weaknesses, as do all practitioner's.
90% of all streetfights end up on the ground ( where do these statistics come from? )
Yip, you're right Tae Kwon Do won't make you a scrapper...if you're not one already, and neither will any other martial art. All they will give you is the tools you need, not the aptitude.
In my younger day's I was all about the combat, I fought anyone I could in any style at all and loved overy minute of it. It didn't make me a fighter though, I don't have the mental or emotional dissassociation to hurt someone seriously without remorse. I would still rather walk away if possible than fight.
Why do we do all the elaborate blocks? because some people don't have the tools to block. An efficient block requires many things. the correct counter angle to the strike being applied. Efficient use of the blocking tool. Reactions. Many people are just not born with these and they must be developed hence our elaborate blocking techniques.

I spent some time practising Wing Chun in my youth too, and it seemed just as patterned and structured as all other martial art's...don't suppose you were practicing with one of the Jeet Kune Do ( it's a philosophy not a MA ) classes? Yip this one has got me in trouble before too.

I also spent a fair amount of time fighting in Muay Thai, both in and out of the ring ( oo-er ) And I can honestly say that this most savage of MA's still isn't fighting.

If I could paraphrase a wise man. " You can practice swimming as much as you want on dry land. It's very different once you're in the water". If you want to fight, then go pick fights with people in bar's. Chances are we'll see you on cop's or Crime watch, " Tonight video footage of a moron being fed to a pit bull after a short altercation in a pub"

I have also spent some time recently sparring with a young black belt at our class who I outweigh by at least 40 pounds. He hits so fast and so hard, even with his jumping and spinning kicks that he could easily take me in a real fight...of course if he misses the last thing he sees is my face up close smiling at him. Unfortunately he doesnt miss that often, my loose molar's will testify to that.

how exactly do you're parents pressure you into this? I remember my mother pushing me to keep playing the bag pipes as I grew up, lugging those damn things backwards and forwards once a week, before I decided enough was enough, sat her down and pointed out if it was her dream she should get up of her ass and do it. If it's not one thing it's my mother. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it. But leave us that do in peace

[cybermonk]

90% of all streetfights end up on the ground ( where do these statistics come from? )

If I recall correctly, its 60% and the statistics come from the LA police department regarding arrests, without taking into account civilian disputes.

[eudobex]

I can see completely where your coming from, I feel exactly the same way about the sir, mam bit-so when my mum started her own class we dropped all that. But I think that you will find a lot of the smaller clubs do have dropped it also, its the larger clubs where there is more politics.

I undersatnd what you mean about it not being street practical, cos I do ninjas as well which is much more practical. But what you have to remember is that it was made for the korean army, who proably would have been fighting people with the came kind of training. And also it is an art, and quite and old one, times change and different types of fighting are needed for different times. you should never start a martial art just to street fight.

You also have to remember that there are bad bits and good bits for everything especially martial arts so just acept sparring. What style do you do because my TKD is definatley not based on kicks. And once I have got used to doing kicks and i have become slightly more flexible, i don't really have to streach to do a kick, I do them in the garden without streaching, they can still be above average hight if you put the work in at the start to become that little bit more flexible, I mean I am not amazingly bendy, but I can kick to the head without thinking about it. Oh and sparring should help you on the street to get out of a situation quickly, cos it teaches you speed and how to move around an oponents attack. You will use blocks if you do alot of sparring with people biggger and uglier than you, cos you have to or you get hit, you just get used to it.

In ninjutsu, the grand master says if you dont go intoi a fight with intention to kill, you wont come out of it. This might sound a bit drastic, it doesn't mean that you have to kill but is you go in to a fight half hartedly then you will end up the victim.

And last of all I can see where your coming from, cos when i got to black belt I started to question the art. But my mum always told me not to devalue what I had done cos getting a black belt is an amazing thing(she is a second dan). And i feel that I have only actually become any good at TKD since I got my black belt, because I started to question it and get the answers. if you can get hold of one of Gen.Choi's books then they are really helpful (i know I have one), though there aren't many around. Question all the time and if your instrucor can't or won't give you the answers then join another club, you cant learn without having questions answered (this is one of the reasons I left my old club). Keep on looking and you will find the answer.

1st Dan Black belt

[Timmy Boy]

I think people are being a little too defensive on the first page of this thread. People are basically saying "why did you to taekwondo for 4 years and then decide it's crap?". This makes sense until you consider the flip side. If he was only a beginner and said he didn't like TKD, you'd all tell him he was only a newbie and that his opinions didn't mean anything because he hadn't learned to understand TKD yet. Which one is it?

However I do have to disagree with the original poster. TKD was designed for combat and the criticisms levelled at it (e.g. high kicks don't work) are IMO too obvious to be correct; surely if it was that simple, they would have realised this in the first place when they invented taekwondo?

I have an alternate explanation. This happens with all martial arts; people study it, lose a fight/see someone who does it lose a fight, and then decide that it doesn't work. It's a lot easier to blame the style you do than it is to say "I'm bad at fighting". For example, my mate at TSD always used to slag off TSD techniques in favour of muay thai ones because he said they were "too complicated and hard to do" (read: "I can't do them"). Guess what happened when he got the hang of them? He completely changed his tune.

The thing with high kicks is that you have to be extremely good to be able to do them properly. By properly I mean that you have the speed, flexibility and technique to use them as your main weapon, like the guy in the video posted on here, and like this black belt guy at my TSD club (note singular black belt, most people there don't rely on kicks). I can do them, but I'm not confident enough in them to use them as my main weapon yet. I need more experience and more hard training.

Perhaps clubs aren't pushing people hard enough, perhaps people aren't pushing themselves hard enough, and perhaps people are just inherently bad losers, but I do wish people would stop saying that things don't work just because they can't do them.

[Zen TKD Warrior]

For the crouch rot that started this thread - Go train at being a ninja.

Like you, I noted just about everything you mentioned. The uselessness of most tech. in "real fightin'" and the sir stuff. I also know that "martial" means "Of or relating to war". Hence the "discipline" stuff.


When I became a black belt I started questioning the why's of what we do. Still do. I may not like everything about TKD (no matter what org.) and will more than likely leave it for another art, but TKD is where I started and it taught me the basics of martial arts. I'll never stop my search for martial arts knowledge and will always be grateful for having the opp. to train with some great folks.

I'm not a kid and not one of these TKD rules people that tend to live here. Just a guy with an opinion and a 2nd degree bb.

You don't like it - leave.

[ClumsyFoot]

Okay, give me a break already. I actually got around to really reading the original post, and had to laugh out loud. I'm having trouble even taking it seriously.

Was this a 'real' post or just designed to get a rise out of MAPers?! I suspect the latter, and hope you weren't really trying to seriously press the points that you stated and attempted to support.

It sure got some response, though.

[Mawi]

Dude, you just exploited yourself as a hypocrite. Are boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai not sports, or have a sporting aspect to them? Do boxing and kickboxing not have a point scoring system? They all allow knockouts, but so does TKD. TKDers train just as hard as anybody else, the only difference being that they compete using different rules. We may not punch to the head in the ring, but we still punch everywhere else you normally would, and that doesn't mean that we don't train to punch to the head.

You say that a sport should have no combat, yet you blatantly suggest that VDiddy cross train in other sports, which you go against your own beliefs and class as forms of "combat".

I'm glad that you realise the benefits of TKD, but wake up to yourself and stop bashing something that's just as good as anything else.



Well…. I knew one of you TKDists would say “we train just as hard as every one else” But in reality you are blinded. The fact that TKD even has pads for every part of your body explains enough. TKD doesn’t ever use any pads but boxing, kickboxing or even karate are systems that don’t need pads because it’s a weakness. TKD tournaments most of the time doesn’t allow full power kicks to the head or punching to the head or pushing. What’s the point there are no rules in a real right that goes for every martial arts. TKD is based on speed not power because of that if you use kicks in a real fight you are more likely fall. I am not saying TKD kicks got no power but most masters say the faster you hit the points on the opponent the more power. Do you think a street fighter is going to bounce around with you and where a hogu and you having pads on…. I don’t think so.


Also these arts I just talked about have advanced scoring systems it’s not hitting points but how the opponent reacts to it and the power of that technique. It’s not all about KOing watch Olympic boxing and tell me how many KOs you see. Also I never said boxing and kickboxing are not sport because if you ask the average person they see them as sports, to me I see kickboxing and boxing a martial arts. You have to remember I am a first dan black belt I wouldn’t learn TKD if it had no purpose. TKD has given me advanced foot work that has made me very fast which helps in combat. To say that I hate TKD is like slapping me across the face because I only want to show the weakness of it so some day it might get corrected and become a better system.


You are telling me I bash TKD by only taking out its weaknesses. You are wrong I am not bashing but explaining what needs to be worked on the system in time.

[leo]

never thought id say this, but, i agree with mawi!!!, there said it, just waiting for the shock to subside :p

[oni_sensei]

1: I'm not a WTF student, so I don't use a hogu.
2: Padding means nothing, it doesn't stop pain, it only takes a bit of the initial shock out of the contact. A full speed reverse turning kick to the head is going to hurt, head-guard or not.
3: The notion of hitting faster = more power is simple physics, you don't need your master to explain that. No matter what system you take, you train to hit fast.
4: You're right, you don't see too many knockouts in Olympic boxing, but you do in professional bouts.
5: I never said that you hated TKD, just that you blatantly stepped out and started bashing.
6. Point sparring is only one small facet of Tae Kwon Do, but it's true that, at least in the WTF sense of it anyways, it has become more of a sport, no doubt about that.
7. You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that the top TKD fighters still train as hard at what they do as anybody else.

[Lithanwif]

If I recall correctly, its 60% and the statistics come from the LA police department regarding arrests, without taking into account civilian disputes.

Sorry mental image of an LA cop after a fight ticking a form with boxes for 'Did the perpatrator drop to the ground when you beat him with your nightstick/shot out his knees/maced the MoFo?'

I think the stats I saw were for actual streetfights and not for police incidents. Although, again the image of some guy in a ref's top driving between bars and taking notes on a friday night is also ludicrous ( although probably justified in a few bars I've been in ).Another case of lies, damn lies and statistics?

[KickChick]

I had you at "crane stance" .....

..... classic example here folks! Posts a few and is gone in a few!

Farewell