Silat Cingkrik Goning

[Kiai Carita]

Warm salaams to all,

Responding to claims and registering trade-marks in the Western world of silat, a group of silat activists from the silat-bogor mailing list, including Cak O'ong, not long ago held a 'seminar' inviting a master of the obscure but legendary Cingkrik Goning silat. This group is now dedicated to documenting and preserving and developing old 'traditional' styles of silat. Cingkrik Goning is the famous silat that the Betawi andti-colonial hero Pitung reportedly played.

Some vids from the 'seminar' are here: youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn72Vw1G3Bs&mode=related&search=
and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oFp4_mT8I0&mode=related&search=
and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnTTUGFkLIo

Please enjoy. I personally find the techniques veru similar to what I have learned in Bangau Putih silat. Maybe, as in alot of Betawi culture, there is a strong Chinese influence here? Interested to read your views.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Rebo Paing]

I personally find the techniques veru similar to what I have learned in Bangau Putih silat. Maybe, as in alot of Betawi culture, there is a strong Chinese influence here? Interested to read your views.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

I see broad strains of commonality across the board in most MA's, even though there are certain distinct flavours which sometimes rise to the top ... but once the S hits the F, the niceties of style often go out the window as people try to end the conflict as quickly and as effectively as possibe.

There's a limit of how many ways to perform a strike, takedown, grapple etc. that can be performed by a human being with head, torso, 2 arms and 2 legs and the dangley bits in-between and most of the logical ways tend to become common ... over and over again :) .

BTW ... not trying to be critical here ... but the same argument about exagerated knife techniques in training applies to the exagerated punch you see in the demo (2 ?) ... you are lucky indeed if an assailant decides to use that magnificently telegraphed approach.

Having said that, I do like Cingrik Goning ... but as Mas Tristan said, we need to know the reason for learning something. What is our motive ... ilmu or seni?
I have always rated ilmu as more important than seni ... my humble opinion only of course!

Salam
Krisno

[Kiai Carita]

....
BTW ... not trying to be critical here ... but the same argument about exagerated knife techniques in training applies to the exagerated punch you see in the demo (2 ?) ... you are lucky indeed if an assailant decides to use that magnificently telegraphed approach. ...

Salam
Krisno

I think that the move was exaggerated to make a point and demonstrate the ambilan style of Cingkrik Goning. In a fight you would be able to use the same moves even if the punch was not telegraphed as long as you get the timing right.

I would say that what you see in those vids is the 'ilmu' ... the seni is happens when the ilmu becomes so ingrained in the body that it is executed with full rasa. When you get the rasa there you begin to get the seni.

In my mind, seni is a level higher than ilmu.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Rebo Paing]

In my mind, seni is a level higher than ilmu.


Ok-lah I think that maybe I know what you're getting at, however, if anyone has tried to catch the jab of a boxer :D ...

I'll revise then (because was applying the idea of seni as in purely the art form in the tradition of dance for example ... and the good dancer might not necessarily be the most effective fighter) . To my way of thinking when you have the ilmu, then you have the seni, just as a good tennis player displays the 'art' in his craft. The way I look at it ilmu and seni happen together.
If you only have partially the ilmu, then you have not yet attained the seni ... because you haven't yet got the ilmu.
Once you HAVE the ilmu, you have the roso, the seni etc ... or in other words, if you don;t have the roso and the seni in your movement ... you haven't yet got the ilmu!

Salam
Krisno

[Pekir]

Kiai,

Our style has much of the 'same' influences and up to a certain extend has the same expressions. I do hope that the 'telegraphed' punch is out of demonstration purposes though :-)

Pekir

[rizal]

i think for demo
no one really wanted to really punch
the bigger the action the bigger the reaction
sereeeem

[fire cobra]

i have caught the jab of a boxer many many times,in my mouth,and
with my nose! he he :)

[Orang Jawa]

I think that the move was exaggerated to make a point and demonstrate the ambilan style of Cingkrik Goning. In a fight you would be able to use the same moves even if the punch was not telegraphed as long as you get the timing right.

I would say that what you see in those vids is the 'ilmu' ... the seni is happens when the ilmu becomes so ingrained in the body that it is executed with full rasa. When you get the rasa there you begin to get the seni.

In my mind, seni is a level higher than ilmu.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

Salam Bram,
In a real fight, there is no time to think..you got to react. Therefore, during practice, we are using our body to move instinctively. So in time in need, we will reacted properly. I have seen many demo, they looks good, beautifully choreograh it. What missing is the body movements that instinctively react insynch with the rest of the body. They kept learning and practice to do multiple tasks for one simple movements. In a real situation, many times the brain just froze, and shuts all your functions...then its too late for anything :)
I respectfully disagree with you in regard to seni is a level higher than ilmu.
I'm agree with Mas Krisno on this issue.
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

[Narrue]

The way a person thinks will be manifested in the way they move. A person with a beautiful mind will move in a beautiful manner (seni). When we see a person move we are looking at the crystallisation of their thoughts.

Ilmu and seni come together but if I was forced to put one before the other I would put Ilmu first and seni secondary after all in order for someone to move their must first be an inner spark first.

A person who thinks in a very systematic manner i.e. 123 abc will move in a very mechanical robotic fashion. Artistically this is not pleasing to the eye.

A person that has beautiful seni does not necessarily mean that they are any good in an actual fight.

One thing for sure is that a person that practices and moves in a calculating systematic manner will be rubbish in a real fight. Is there time to calculate or make strategies?
In a real fight you must react without thinking and this requires intuition or rasa.

[Wali]

The way a person thinks will be manifested in the way they move. A person with a beautiful mind will move in a beautiful manner (seni). When we see a person move we are looking at the crystallisation of their thoughts.

Ilmu and seni come together but if I was forced to put one before the other I would put Ilmu first and seni secondary after all in order for someone to move their must first be an inner spark first.

A person who thinks in a very systematic manner i.e. 123 abc will move in a very mechanical robotic fashion. Artistically this is not pleasing to the eye.

A person that has beautiful seni does not necessarily mean that they are any good in an actual fight.

One thing for sure is that a person that practices and moves in a calculating systematic manner will be rubbish in a real fight. Is there time to calculate or make strategies?
In a real fight you must react without thinking and this requires intuition or rasa.
And this is where the Kembangan (properly done, with no fixed pattern) really comes into it's own.

It's such a misunderstood aspect of silat, that it gets labelled as useless, innefective, the 'artistic' side, etc... in reality, it's so much more.

[tellner]

It also gives the audience a chance to make odds before the fight :p

[fire cobra]

dont forget fighting also helps fighting guys,vastly different to visulise a left hook coming at you than to have one bounce of your chin! :)

[Narrue]

I think Kembangan is important, the fact that many aliran do not have kembangan makes me wonder if it was not once a practice quite separate from silat. Personally I think that may be the case and kembangan was added to silat because it was felt that it enhances it. I don’t know which is older silat or kembangan but if they were once separate it would be interesting to see kembangan in its pure original form, without silat movements added. Obviously today kembangan is used to display a persons silat but is that really kembangan if we think that originally the may have been no martial aspect to kembangan.

[Orang Jawa]

I think Kembangan is important, the fact that many aliran do not have kembangan makes me wonder if it was not once a practice quite separate from silat. Personally I think that may be the case and kembangan was added to silat because it was felt that it enhances it. I don’t know which is older silat or kembangan but if they were once separate it would be interesting to see kembangan in its pure original form, without silat movements added. Obviously today kembangan is used to display a persons silat but is that really kembangan if we think that originally the may have been no martial aspect to kembangan.

In our system, which a close family system, we do not practice kembangan. We are familiar of it, we knew some of the flowery movements are derived from silat techniques. The majority of silat have kembangan in their system, only few that really use it as a foundation of learning silat.
I remembered vividly how we use to watch Wayang Orang or Ketoprak, and some kembangan demo. It make us smile and have some thing to talk about among us. Especially when we identified specific technique that similar what we do but with totally different applications...:)
I think we have to differentiate between martial arts and entertaiment value. both can be complimented to each other but Ilmu can be a seni, but seni can not be ilmu.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

i have caught the jab of a boxer many many times,in my mouth,and
with my nose! he he :)

:D I know what you mean.....and my big 'ol broken Roman nose & broken teeth will testify to that :rolleyes: :o

Anyway, with regard to kembangan, I have a question :confused:

I have seen lots of traditional dance in my times in Asia and have also noticed lots of similar repeated movements in many countries in SEA.

Is there an element of encoded practice in this dance? Did it allow practice of forms to take place disguised as dance, a la capoeira?

Just a thought :confused: