Kicking

[Silver_no2]

Given that this is my hundredth post I thought I would mark the occassion with a thread that will probably lead to me being villified and given a kicking.

I have been studying a MA for a little over two years. I only study the one (shodakan aikido) but I have managed to watch several others and took part in the now infamous Heriot-Watt Uni X-Training day, and it was through these that I arrived at the conclusion which I am about to disclose.

Before I begin I would just like to put in a few disclaimers:
This is my own opinion, not that of my instuctor/club/art
I may well be completely wrong
I am not trying to offend anybody or their art

And so it begins........

I have been taught that your balance has to be maintained at all times while sparring/fighting/training etc otherwise you will be in a weakened position and your opponent/enemy will take you out (and I don't mean for dinner:D ). This is also common sense - if you are off balance then your techniques will not have the power in them that they should have and your ability to fight effectively is vastly reduced.

If this is taken as being true, as I believe it is, then any art that involves kicking is, in reality, teaching it's students to be at a disadvantage.

Unless the first kick knocks out your opponent/attacker then you are automatically in a detrimental position. If you do not land that perfect kick, which does seem quite a hard thing to do, you are in trouble because you are standing on one leg!. I have been kicked square in the chest while involved in a fight. It did hurt, but it didn't put me down or back me off sufficiently and I closed with the guy and asked him not to do it again.

If your attacker, through skill or luck, manages to avoid the kick then he has you on the back foot, which is very hard to recover from. Does that not then mean that kicking is only useful in the dojo during training or competition where landing a kick will lead to a stop and a restart? If you do manage to get the kick in then you still have to bring the foot back to the ground. All of which takes time, and may mean that your attacker gets in close and finishes you off.

Another aspect is that of space. It is not unusual for trouble to happen in a crowded place...will there be enough room to get your leg up? What is the usual fighting distance for an art such as TKD or kickboxing? I assume it is at least a legs length away - something that you may not have in a a crowded pub.

A third concern I have is that kicking requires the kicker to be fairly well warmed up else there is a risk of damaging the muscles, or not getting your leg that high in the first place.

Should you land a kick then the chances of your opponent/enemy holding onto it must be pretty much evens, particularly if you are kicking someone in the stomach. This takes me full circle to the start of my point about being off-balance.

So my point is....kicking is of limited benefit as it is too much of an all or nothing option. Either you take them out with it or are taken out by them because of the position it puts you in. The only kick that I can think of that is not likely to leave you in this position is one to the knee as it is very difficult to attack somebody if they have just destroyed your ligaments and cartilage.

As I have said, I have not practiced an art that requires kicking so I may be way off the mark here. It also may be partly because I am not the most flexible of people, or the fastest of movers, that I have this opinion. I'm sure if I could do spinning reverse kicks I wouldn't have though about the topic at all! :D

Please be gentle.

[Andrew Green]

Ok, here it comes...:D

Yes, you have to maintain balance, this is done through maintaining a strong centerline. It is possible to maintain a strong centerline while standing on one foot.

"When you have a powerfully focused center line, even if you stand on one leg you will be able to maintain a centered body."

Taken from Total Aikido: The Master Course, Gozo Shioda with Yasuhisa Shioda. I'd assume they know a thing or two about aikido ;)

Now there are all sorts of kicks, some of which do put you in a bad position. Spin kicks to the head, are an example of this, Yes if that spinning heel hook connects its probably over, but...

Hoewever most "older styles" do not do these sorts of things. Within the Okinawan styles most kicks are short snap kicks to the groin or legs, as well as thrust/stomp kicks to the legs.

Muay Thai's "signature" kick, the low line round kick with the shin, will throw you off if you miss, but its very hard to move out of the way, not enough time. The block is with the leg, so both people are on one leg.

Another time kicks are often used is when you have control over an opponent, for example you catch an attack, bend the forward with an arm bar, and stomp kick down on top of the knee.

Kicks have a place, they are not as useful as your upper body, but they are certainely beneficial. Choki Motobu, an Okinawan master who had a reputation for street fighting, wrote that in a real confrontation kicks weren't all that useful. (Not a direct quote, I don't have the book here). However he still taught and used kicks.

In fact many styles train to kick low and block kicks with legs, reaching down to stop a kick exposes your upper lines. This is how I do it, I'm an Okinawan stylist. Wing Chun does sticky leg excercises, etc.

Maintaining balance does not mean keeping both feet down, otherwise your theory would eliminate footwork ;)

I would agree that kicking in general goes against common aikido theory, however so would pretty much any offensive attack... Aikido is usually about using your opponents energy, if your opponent doesn't move, there is no energy to use. This doesn't mean that no pre-emptive action should ever be taken though. If a fight is going to happen, why not end it before the other person can move?

[Chazz]

You do make a lot of good points and i do agree with some of them:

"Another aspect is that of space. It is not unusual for trouble to happen in a crowded place...will there be enough room to get your leg up? What is the usual fighting distance for an art such as TKD or kickboxing? I assume it is at least a legs length away - something that you may not have in a a crowded pub."

Some styles teach close kicks, (some TKD)
Inverted Round Kick - Can be thrown from a distance of face to face
Lead Leg downward hook kick - takes a little more room but can be done.

"Another time kicks are often used is when you have control over an opponent, for example you catch an attack, bend the forward with an arm bar, and stomp kick down on top of the knee."

What about kicks to the instep, front snap kick to belly, shins, and (below the belt).


I'll leave it at this for now:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Side kick, front kick, swing kick, heel front kick, twisting kick, reverse swing kick, even crescent kick and downwards kick. These are all techniques I've successfully used (or had used against me) in sparring. In a phone box.

Most kicks above the head are inneffective, but kicks to the legs, groin and stomach can be incredibly effective. On top of this then with the correct training you put your foot down after a kick, or you rechamber to throw a second one. Think about this for a moment. We're taught to draw our leg into chamber again after a kick before stepping down. If someone tries to move in or take advantage of the kick in that time you have two options, step down and forwards with hand/arm techniques, or throw a second kick. Stepping down takes very little time, less time than it takes to prepare for and throw a good punch. Throwing another kick from chamber is also very fast.

Kicks certainly have their uses in fights, I can vouch for this. I've finished a fight with only a kick (stopping kick, heel front kick to chest), its all down to timing.

[Greyghost]

In a phone box......This i gotta see.

No disrespect jimmy, but a phone box is barely big enough for one person let alone two!!!. how you managed any but the lowest of kicks in such a cramped enviroment is beyond me.

BUt back to the thread.

Silver, most kicks may leave you off balance if incorrectly performed , this is why we learn combinations of kicks and hand/foot techniques...to allow us to flow from one to the other (especially when we miss). though any martial artist worth his salt should still be able to sort you out , if you miss with a "wide" technique.

"Closing" with a kicker is sometimes the best form of defense as there hands are not always as good as there feet. (me included)

I can sense this becoming a part of the Kung-fu / Akido X-training excercise.

Hope that was gentle, and that you are well.

regards,

[Andy Murray]

Hi Folks,

Good thread Silver.

Firstly, I don't disagree with anything said thus far on the thread. In addition I would say though that;

Kicking can actually be used to regain your balance.

A good kicker is as balanced on no feet, as they are on one or two.

We only throw high kicks in Kung Fu so you Grappling types will think that's what we rely on. Distracting you from the fact that we actually concentrate on hair-pulling.

Kicks are just another size of spanner in the toolbox, just as traps, locks, punches, throws and sikes. Use where appropriate only.

Oh yeah I forgot. Grab my leg and see what happens (present injury excepted) ;)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

To be fair it was a big, old fashioned red phone box, which you're supposed to be able to fit six (or is the world record seven?) very cramped people into.

[Chazz]

"These are all techniques I've successfully used (or had used against me) in sparring. In a phone box. "


That would be a great pic to add to the forum. (Just messin with ya) But i would like to see it!

[Spike]

Silver, very eloquent post, nothing in the post at all that is wrong per se, a few differences of opinion though. Your main stance for this opinion is as an Aikidoka, and thus, it`s easy to see that Kicking is completely at odds with the principals of Aikido

Quote:

(Unless the first kick knocks out your opponent/attacker then you are automatically in a detrimental position. If you do not land that perfect kick, which does seem quite a hard thing to do, you are in trouble because you are standing on one leg!. I have been kicked square in the chest while involved in a fight. It did hurt, but it didn't put me down or back me off sufficiently and I closed with the guy and asked him not to do it again.

You almost seem to be taking for granted the fact that your attacker will launch a kick and then do nothing ese with their leg. Your leg returning can apply techniques, a heel to the kidney or the back of your attackers knee will have an impact.
It`s also possible to kick someone, aiming at their head, and return your leg to it`s original position before your attacker has time to take a step. I think Andy Murray knows who I`m talking about.


Quote:

(Another aspect is that of space. It is not unusual for trouble to happen in a crowded place...will there be enough room to get your leg up? What is the usual fighting distance for an art such as TKD or kickboxing? I assume it is at least a legs length away - something that you may not have in a a crowded pub. )

I`d say that yes space is certainly a limiting factor for kicking, but only for kicks with a "roundhouse" element, any kick going straight from you to your attacker would be posed little problems by space available

Quote:

(So my point is....kicking is of limited benefit as it is too much of an all or nothing option. Either you take them out with it or are taken out by them because of the position it puts you in. The only kick that I can think of that is not likely to leave you in this position is one to the knee as it is very difficult to attack somebody if they have just destroyed your ligaments and cartilage. )

I would not say it was an all or nothing attack, if you can hit someone in the head, or solar plexus, ribs, lymph glands, throat, or as you say, knees or thigh muscles, and it doesn`t at the very least give you time for another attack, you`re going to lose that fight, I wouldn`t like to see the perosn who could take a kick to the throat, face, unphased.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Next time I get drunk and spar or practice in a phone box I'll try and make sure there are pictures of it.

[Andy Murray]

I can't speak for all the arts using kicks, but i personally use them as bridges to the hands.

From distance, I might lead with a kick just to get me in hand range ( my favourite ). Once I have done my thing withthe hands, I might use a kick to gain distance from the opponent once more.

Any thoughts?

Andy

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Hmm, have to try that sometime. At the moment I usually use kicks for a few purposes:
1. showing off (jumping spinning stuff in demos, that type of thing)
2. complement to hands (lead with an inwards punch feint into front kick to the knee)
3. scaring people (swing kick stopped by the ear, front kick by the groin, side kick by the chin, never had a fight start after stuff like that)
4. constant motion (inwards punch, low swing kick, spin side kick, backfist, you know the drill)
5. repositioning (step round someone with the rear leg coming up in a swing kick for example)
6. suprise attacks (only really works on twisting kick, which can be targeted pretty much anywhere on the body, and I have a fast twisting kick so can usually slip it under a guard into the armpit for example)
7. counter-kicking (step off-line from a side kick and kick along the underside of their leg with a swing, depends on how the person kicks of course)
8. just because

[Thomas Vince]

I see some good stuff here and I hope you change your mind about kicking. A leg is longer than an arm. If you can effectively place an attacker in a precarious position than a kick is ideal. In Parkers Kenpo however we rarely use kicks above the waist and very rarely as a finishing move. Most finishing moves in Kenpo are in fact the elbows or the knees and I should include a good heel palm strike once in awhile. Later on today I will be loading a sequence where an attacker kicks me and I parry off the kick and kick him before I finish with a heel palm strike to his face. This is agreat technique and it is called thrusting salute in the Parker Kenpo system. Look to my post Kenpo videos and take the link, but do this several hours from now as I have to leave but I will load the third sequence or video mpeg when i return.

[Darzeka]

All the kicks we learn are taught to be applied below the waist (bar two and one is really a knee). Saying that with my long legs and flexibilty I can actually snap kick people in the chest/neck/face.

Our snap kick techniques are taught off the back foot so as to give you more power and balance in the kick and after kicking the foot goes back to its starting point. These kick are amazingly fast and hurt like a bi@#h. Espescially if your attacker steps forward and puts their leg in a position where a kick to the front of shin/knee will lock it in place and they kinda trip over.
As for range one of our kicks can be done from about 10 centimetres away (foot edge kick) and with shoes with chunky soles will take your knee cap off.

The only kicking styles that I don't like are the ones based around a rotation movement (kickbowing rounding kick to the leg for example) to me these type of kicks are just too telegraphed and easily countered, enter counter-kicking. As someone tries one of these low roundhouse kicks kick their shin with the ball of your foot, pushing their leg wide (hopefully) and land in attack stance. From here there is a multitude of things you can do, depending on your opponents reaction. Or If they kick a little higher do the same with a shin kick.
Then if they slip too high toward your hip catch it, step in with other leg (putting it behind their grounded leg), put your hand on their throat and perfrom a straight leg body drop. The higher the kick, the longer it will take get to me, the longer I have to react.

The same can be said for any kick on involving a twisting motion of the body (kinda like a reverse roundhouse. step up pivot backwards and kick out). As soon as they turn backwards I would move in behind their back and from here they are pretty much gone. That saying I've never had to do this with someone trying to put a hole in my gut with their foot. But I still think Its a bad idea to present your back to your opponent.

If I have any misconceptions about those techniques I have a dim veiw on please rectify the situation.

Oh and does anyone know of a good defense against snap kicks to the groin,shin,knee? other than smack them in the head if the get close enough for this?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The only kicking styles that I don't like are the ones based around a rotation movement (kickbowing rounding kick to the leg for example) to me these type of kicks are just too telegraphed and easily countered, enter counter-kicking. As someone tries one of these low roundhouse kicks kick their shin with the ball of your foot, pushing their leg wide (hopefully) and land in attack stance. From here there is a multitude of things you can do, depending on your opponents reaction. Or If they kick a little higher do the same with a shin kick.

I'm guessing we probably work on different principles then. My swing kicks are easily as fast as my side kicks. I can't work out why they'd telegraph unless the mechanics of the circular kicks you've learnt are flawed somehow. I'd also be quite impressed if you could hit a small fast moving target heading towards your knee with the ball of your foot, and if its a powerful kick all you'll get for your trouble is a shock transmitted up to your knee (at least if I read what you're saying right). A more effective method would probably be to actually step down on the leg, or a stamp kick to the leg.


The same can be said for any kick on involving a twisting motion of the body (kinda like a reverse roundhouse. step up pivot backwards and kick out). As soon as they turn backwards I would move in behind their back and from here they are pretty much gone. That saying I've never had to do this with someone trying to put a hole in my gut with their foot. But I still think Its a bad idea to present your back to your opponent.

Spin kicks are generally a bad idea in actual combat, although in the right situation and with good timing they can be devastating.


Oh and does anyone know of a good defense against snap kicks to the groin,shin,knee? other than smack them in the head if the get close enough for this?

To the groin: block offline from the kick, so a side kick would be pushed down, a front kick sideways, and so on.
Shin and knee: move the leg.

[Freeform]

Kicking will always put you at a disadvantage, so will punching, or attacking generally. The point being is that we train hard enough that we 'should/will' be able to easily regain balance.

The principles of kicking are closely associated to those of punching (balance/extension). Its a measure of 'acceptable losses' against potential benifits. I know i can punch you with little chance of you countering or catching me, know theres more chance of you getting me when I try to kick you. If i think i can get away with it then i will, cause my legs much better and stronger than my arm. Personally I think the risk for high kicks (above waist/pit of stomach) are to great so won't do them.

In saying that I have kicked people in the head, but they were on the ground at the time ;)

[Greyghost]

i do not think there is a definative answer to the question of "kicking :good or bad?"...rather i think it is a personal and somewhat subjective view of how each individual uses those techniques within there art to THEIR advantage .

Kicking is a useful tool, it can catch a lot of the average thug in the street types completely by surprise. When used incorrectly, or performed incorrectly a kick can leave you in a position you would much rather not be in. On the other hand....if performed correctly or used at the right time, ANY kick can be used to great effect.

When it comes down to it...those who cannot kick and concentrate on there hand strikes are losing a valuable tool ...likewise..those who can only kick lose any up close and personal strikes.

IMHO everyone should learn how to kick,whether it be high, low...fast, slow....simple or complicated. surely 4 weapons are better than 2?.

As for balance.....if you have it...good. If you don't ...start practising. Me?...i'm off to practise.

bye.


:)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually there are a basic nine weapons on the human body, although the whole body can be used as one these nine are the principle choices.
Head, elbows, hands, knees, feet.

[Greyghost]

Well....if you want to be technical...what about shoulders and hips......???????

that would make eleven.


rrraaassssppp!!!!!!




:D

[Andy Murray]

Err, don't you mean thirteen GG?

:)

[Greyghost]

yeah.....ok ...i was counting both sets as one weapon.....

counting was never my strong point.

:D

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Actually there are a basic nine weapons on the human body, although the whole body can be used as one these nine are the principle choices.
Head, elbows, hands, knees, feet.

I can get more then that out of just my right hand!

shins and forearms would also be among the major ones though

[Darzeka]

Firstly can you get a powerful kick that comes in a circular motion that can't be seen before it lands?

There has to be some kind of wind up for it right? even if it is just the fact it was the back foot. Minor telegraphing if it is not a good kick.
Then there is the movement of hips. For the shin/foot to reach the person don't you need to rotate your hips? (also a power consideration?) Does this rotation occur before you move you foot very far?
Then there is the travel time of the contact point. If the foot in a circular motion from the attacker to me then I can see it for the whole time and as soon as it begins moving then you start your defence.
As for the counter kicking, because of the nature of those circular kicks you change most of your balance to the stationery foot, correct? otherwise you will lose power in the kick. Now as they lift their foot for a kick you pick up foot and strie for their shin/foot with the underside of your foot, with little power, just trying to make contact then push on it and then put your weight on it, hopefully their leg will flail wide, giving you enough time to put in a finish on them and you having your weight on your front foot will give you a good striking platform.

Granted I am using a Muay Thai move as my example but it will apply to many of the kicks that come in like this.

But this a situation where we are in a face off type situation and I'm looking for a kick. Probably the key to catching these attacks early is to watch your opponents hips and shoulders, not their face.

Also think on how quickly you can change the distance you are fighting in. If you see a kick coming in that is at full power if your are legs length away from them, either step back or forward to reduce the force in the kick. Move left or right to lessen force due to copping it before it is at full power (normally directly in front of your opponent) or after the force has dissapated.

Remeber it is also harder to judge speed in a straight line than in a circle and also harder to see it coming.

Kicks I think are more of a serious attack. They are gonna knock you out, disable you, destroy a joint, etc. Whereas a punch will stun as well as kill, maim and destroy. This is why I like throws and locks so much, they allow the other person a chance to stop before I snap his elbow.

[Andrew Green]

Have you ever fought using low kicks and someone that knows how to use them?

Low round kicks are blocked with the shin, it is very unlikely that someone will be able to move out of the way completely.

If your opponent is not used to this it is often very easy to give them a very sore leg. If they drop a hand to try and block it, they expose their face.

If you are fighting someone that knows how to defend, it is usually not an opening attack. It can be used to set something else up, as a "probbing" tech, or as a strong tech when set up by something else.

Punch him in the face a couple times, then kick his leg.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

No matter what the move, or how good you are, there is always some form of telegraph. The point of training is to cut that down to a bare minimum.

[Thomas Vince]

I wanted to mention that even though spin kicks are not advised for the street, I have a few wicked spin kicks that I requently score with when we spar full contact and I have used them in the street. But in every case it is the way I set up the opponent prior to kicking that makes the kick so well placed. Vectoring in on a target and setting the opponent up are important. As far as telegraphing movement is movement and you can't stop the requirements of motion or take that away from the body. Aikido people, it sounds like that's what we are focusing on, are more the throws and re-directing and blending into an attack. I have always beleived that if your art is missing one aspect of the ma's your art is not giving you the full advantage of defense. What if you attacker was coming at you and your hands were tied or you were being grabbed from behind by another attacker? In some cases by dropping low in a one legged stance and executing a front thrust kick you can effectively thwart of a frontal attack when the hands cannot operate properly.
Have you given any thought to the possibility that your hands could be used in a self defense situation, and what might you do?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If you've got to the point where your hands are tied and you're attacked, something has gone very, very wrong.

However if there's someone behind you then anyone can be made to let go, with the right encouragement.

[Thomas Vince]

I agree CKD, and now for everyone what would you do if you had to defend and you were holding a baby?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Hit them with the baby.

[Thomas Vince]

Hahahahahahahahaha! I always knew there was something just not right about you. Remind me to nener to let you babysit the kids alright!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

:)

Alternatively throw the baby at them. If they're a normal person who's attacking you then they'll catch it, or at least try to, since they won't want to see it hurt. If they're a psycho then they'd probably kill the baby anyway and at least you've got some use out of it.

Besides, kids bounce.

[Benn]

Now I'd do that with a pint or something, but...

Actually, a pint is good. Just throw it up into the air, they'll watch it (not gonna ignore it), giving you ample time to put them down, or run away even...

[Kwan Jang]

-(I'm going to bypass any comments on the baby line and just hope it doesn't digress into a bunch of those awful, old "dead baby" jokes of the '80's.) Kicking is a valid and legitimate part of a martial artists arsenal. It is (primarily) your long-range weapon. Any tehnique has both it's strengths to be effective and weaknesses to be countered. If you are weak in this area(or any other, for that matter), it's not too hard for an opponent(especially a skilled one) to counter you. However, if your kicking skills and ability rival Bill Wallace, Benny Urqudidez, or Don Wilson in their prime, countering this may be a little easier said than done. Likw many others on this thread, I say that kicking, when combined w/ efficiency in other ranges(i.e. punching, trapping, and grappling) makes you a complete fighter. Whether, an individual makes the time and effort to be effective in this range is up to them.(personally, I don't mind if others, besides my students, leave this weak. It gives me just another advantage to capitalize on.-LOL).