ATA noticebly missing. WHY?

[Cardiowheezer]

My 9 year recently left a ATA (American Taekwondo Association) school. She is now currently attending a WTF school that is from what I can see not quite as cookie cutter as the previous school. She had taken TKD for about 18 months and was a blue belt about to test for her brown belt. I signed her up and when her Dad followed up, he stated that she was not learning real martial arts. He had taken MA as a child and said that what she was doing was "playing" at being a martial artist. By this time, I had already signed the contract. I then began to see sites where "real martial artist" joked about ATA and their mini-blackbelts. This caused me to do a little more research and I am very happy with the school that she is in now. They are very family oriented. They encourage the kids to do well inside the school and out. They don't allow everyone to test as a group. Each child tests at their own speed and it takes at least 3 months instead of the other school's 6 weeks. The child is only allowed to test once the nuiances are learned and mastered, not just the steps.

My concern is that upon talking to a friend whose child is still in ATA, we have been trying to pull up info on ATA from non-biased sites and have been unable to find the info that I originally read.
What's the deal? Can ATA sue if someone talks negatively about their site? My friends daughter is very good at TKD and could go far with the right instruction.
Does anyone have any feedback on ATA? Is it the McDojo that everyone is hinting at? I have been able to find posts on other TKD organizations on this site but not ATA. I'd like to now what true martial artists think about ATA as I have encouraged several parents to sign up with ATA schools. Eventhough the school wasn't for us, I didn't hold all ATA schools at blame. Could it be the ATA system is flawed and not just the school?

[Guitarboy1212]

no, it just means that your skills at finding something are not that great :) just because you can't find it does not mean that they were sued. Look harder.

[thiaboxr2]

There may not be anything actually wrong with the ATA school. Yes, 6 weeks is a very short time between belts. And reaching brown belt in 2 years or less seems like a short time. I guess it would depend on how many classes a week she was attending, how many hours put in along with how well she catches on to the teachings.

There are various sites you can find info. on ATA TKD. It depends what you type in.

If you are worried that your school or last school attended MAY be a McDojo, you can look under the Beginners section here on this forum. There are a couple of posts worthy of looking at that point out some obvious and not so obvious things to pay attention to.


I do not train in TKD but I know that testing for your next belt in less than 2 months is not good. If you figure 1 hour a day at a minimum of 2 classes a week, comes out to only 12 classes.

Only an opinion, Don't take it personally.:)

[Cardiowheezer]

Thiaboxr2,

Thanks for your response. My friend is unhappy with the school and is starting to get disinterested all together. Her child loves TKD and would like to continue. They haved searched this site repeatedly, as have I and have not been able to find anything really specific to ATA. Thanks for your polite response.

Guitarboy,

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to type ATA into the search box.
We have found thousands of sites on ATA. We have just not been able to find a lot of truly honest discussion posts from those we considered more knowledgeable. Various schools in our area knock ATA but they are the competition. Before my friend got totally frustrated and pulled her child out all together, I wanted to help her get info. It just appeared strange to us that information about the cons as well as the pros of ATA are hard to come by. We have been able to find lots of info on WTF.:confused: :)

[Kof_Andy]

Beside being able to test early, what else have you notice about ATA? What was the main reason why you wanted to pull your daughter out? Association can mean very little in the end. It all depend on how the teacher decide to tailor his curriculum. Anyway if you were to enroll your daughter to a new TKD school, enroll her in a WTF school. After all it is TKD's main head quater. One day maybe your daughter might get serious enough to compete in world games, and olympic. The way you get in is with a kukiwon register dan certificate. Something to keep in mind.

[Jim]

There must be a reason you're doing a search at all about an org like this. I'd say go with your gut instinct and move to another school. Even if we were to suggest one to you that is close and you don't like it, go with your own instincts on this.

[Kwajman]

ATA dojangs can be very good or very bad. Depends on the instructor and the school philosophy. ATA's tend to be that 'cookie cutter' style tho. They also tend to lean towards point sparring and olympic style TKD. This has been my findings, others may have different experience.

[Cardiowheezer]

Thanks everyone for all of your input. I have already changed my daughter's school to a WTF school. Her coach is awesome. He is very experienced and has trained members of the junior olympic team. He and his wife take up extra time with the kids and do things other than taekwondo as well. He also has included a mini gym in the school so that the kids can work out outside of class.

I initially was trying to find ways to get my daughter active because she's a couch potato who sneaks food. We tried several activities and TKD was what she liked best. Eventhough she went to class 4-5 times a week, she never lost weight nor broke a sweat. This was my first clue that something was wrong. I was disappointed but I had already signed the contract.

I think the problems that I have experienced with the school may be just with that school. It just seems to appear as if people really don't respect ATA, at least in my area. Every school that I visited while searchinf for a new school basically wrote ATA off as being a waste of my time and money.

We were hoping that my daughter would be able to advance a little faster because of her prior experience, but she has not. She left her former school as a brownbelt and had to start over as a white belt. She was a little disappointed but she has handled the change pretty well. She realizes that she is now learning TKD the right way and when she does become a black belt, hopefully she will appreciate her belt even more. It was a shock, however, to learn that as a new brown belt, she had not learned a lot of the basics. At her old school, as long as she memorized the correct steps for her forms, self defenses, one steps and sparring, she was allowed to advance. Technique was never really stressed. Her new instructor makes them aware of everything, even the placement of their fingers and toes.

So far we're really pleased.

[Kof_Andy]

I'm glad you found a experience instructor for your daughter. Most schools out there are mc dojo type, only small percentages are decent schools. Is a sad fact, but true. Too bad theres no way for beginniers, or parents to tell unless there martial artist aswell. Anyway MAP is a good place to ask for advice, stop by when you need help in the future again.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Sounds like you found a decent instructor. There really are a lot of diploma mills and K-Mart corner Dojos out there, in not just the Korean variety. Basically BS is BS, wherever they claim it comes from.
TKD in general is good exercise obviously, or should be, and is also good for children's attention and discipline. As are just about all martial arts. The mentioning of "Playing at martial arts" is a general thing that can be applied to all modern Karate styles, of which TKD is one. Studying older systems yields a more combative result; TKD comes from Shoto-Kan, a Japanese adaptation that came from an already modified branch of Shuri-Te. It is indeed very far off the beaten bath of combative styles. Unfortunately this is true in varrying degrees of most modern styles as well.
Do you really want something real? Some people do not, in fact the Japanese people embraced a modified style like Shoto-Kan partly because it did not stress vital point strikes, and other deadly ideas. It had intentionally been watered down and simplified to serve as preparation for children to become ready for their mandatory 2 year stint in the Japanese military. Later, in 1951, Choi Hong Hi attained 2nd degree black belt in Shoto-Kan and returned to Korea, where he then opened a school teaching it (I have seen the original syllabus and compared it to the 1953 Shoto-Kan syllabus and the two are almost identical page for page).

This style later changed and split into a North and South faction. One faction kept their katas (pomsae) similar to the Shoto-Kan, the other chucked the katas and created their own new ones (I have video clips of all Korean forms from all 3 major sub-groups). The history gets more complicated than that, but you get the idea; what finally made its way overseas has been highly modified and is mostly only suitable for tournament competition. If you want reality, you need an older style, bottom line. If you like tournaments and do not care about combative application, then it is probably fine.

Older styles include Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu and ****o-Ryu. Still older is Okinawan Kempo. Also there are various Chinese systems that are even older. All of these have very useful combative information in them. This is a view based on years of observation, and not some attempt at Korea-bashing. I hope it is not interpreted as that.

-Chris J.

[Thomas]

Interesting post and not a bad summary in a nutshell of the history, but your bias against an ENTIRE martial art is pretty blatant.

Being an old style doesn't necessarily make a style effective. There are some pretty effective new ones out there. There are various schools of all sorts of names that teach practical and effective martial arts. There are lots out there that don't.

I think your posts shows why it is important to check out various schools and try to find the one that fits your learning style, your goals, and so on. It also shows that you shouldn't let the name of a style dictate whether you choose it or not. Just because you've been to or seen some bad schools of one style doesn't mean they are all bad. Judge them individually.

Some Taekwondo schools do teach effective self defence. Some don't. It is more based on the individual instructor and school than the name "Taekwondo".

(That applies to all styles... I imagine there are both good and bad Shorin-ryu, Goju-ryu, and Kempo schools out there as well.)

[Kwajman]

Thanks for stepping up for us Thomas!

[whitematt]

Cardiowheezer:

I'll provide a little input on this. And so you know I am an ATA instructor and own my own ATA-affiliated school.

[Thanks everyone for all of your input. I have already changed my daughter's school to a WTF school. Her coach is awesome. He is very experienced and has trained members of the junior olympic team.]

Congratulations on finding a school that is a good fit for you and your family.

[He and his wife take up extra time with the kids and do things other than taekwondo as well. He also has included a mini gym in the school so that the kids can work out outside of class.]

That's a nice perk, and not one some schools are able to offer (equipment expense, insurance, etc.)

[I initially was trying to find ways to get my daughter active because she's a couch potato who sneaks food. We tried several activities and TKD was what she liked best. Eventhough she went to class 4-5 times a week, she never lost weight nor broke a sweat. This was my first clue that something was wrong.]

No sneaking food = losing weight. :-) But seriously, your kids should get a decent work out in class. Depending on the age, kids won't break a sweat, it's not in their physical make-up yet. We put our kids through good-paced work-outs. At the age of 12, they attend the adult classes... I pride myself on grueling physical workouts for the adult class.

[I was disappointed but I had already signed the contract.]

As a business owner, I understand the fondness for contracts. As a former student that paid on contracts, I hate them - and won't use them. My students stay because they enjoy what they are doing and receiving benefits from the program.

[I think the problems that I have experienced with the school may be just with that school.]

It's good to see you aren't judging the entire organization.

[It just seems to appear as if people really don't respect ATA, at least in my area.]

They won't if your local schools are bad.

[Every school that I visited while searchinf for a new school basically wrote ATA off as being a waste of my time and money.]

Again based on the school in your area, I wouldn't blame them. But, there are a lot of sour grapes between MA schools sometimes.

[We were hoping that my daughter would be able to advance a little faster because of her prior experience, but she has not. She left her former school as a brownbelt and had to start over as a white belt. She was a little disappointed but she has handled the change pretty well.]

Good for her, shows a lot of maturity on her part.

[She realizes that she is now learning TKD the right way and when she does become a black belt, hopefully she will appreciate her belt even more. It was a shock, however, to learn that as a new brown belt, she had not learned a lot of the basics.]

Not sure what to say on this.... I drill my students on basics - over and over and over. And no matter how often we do, we still have a handful of students that don't get it. We can break a sidekick down to it's core elements, and they still look they are doing a messed up round kick. With my students, I chalk some of it up to 1) lack of physical strength/dexterity, and 2) lack of desire. I can tell who practices outside of class, and who has the TV guide committed to memory. :-)

[At her old school, as long as she memorized the correct steps for her forms, self defenses, one steps and sparring, she was allowed to advance. Technique was never really stressed. Her new instructor makes them aware of everything, even the placement of their fingers and toes.]

Again good for her, I hope she really enjoys it! As mentioned though, not all schools are created equal. I originally started with a WTF school, quitting just short of my black belt. You mentioned self-defense techniques. We didn't even practice self-defense techniques. We learned our form, we did 3-step sparring, and at higher ranks we sparred and did board breaks.

When I changed over to the ATA I wasn't forced to start over, but I was close. My skills were far below what my instructor expected for someone at my level. I worked hard and eventually earned my black belt. I even had the honor of testing for it in front of Grandmaster H.U. Lee - talk about nervous!

I've been an ATA member for a quite a number of years, and while not everything fits my definition of perfect, they do a lot of things right. I know the key to this situation is not so much was the ATA right for you (and your daughter), but was this instructor right for you (and your daughter)?

Feel free to ask any ATA-related you have, I will do my best to answer them honestly with the information I have.

Matt White

[Keetoe]

im an ATA student and its deffenetly NOT a mcdojo, my dad serves in the army and we live overseas in germany, (i think taht our shcool is the only one in germany) any way there are no ATA tournaments due to lack of ATA schhos so all the students from my school go to german tournaments, andd we kick major butt, not having studied other martial arts i cant tel if there doing a bad jod in comparison to other schools but all our students seem to do fine

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I started going to a local ATA school last year, just for something different. They trained hard, and I liked the other students. Then came NUMEROUS hidden charges that had me running.

They wanted me to buy "official" sparring gear, which just happened to be on sale for 150 bucks. (My personal sparring gear was relatively brand new, and the same color as theirs, just no ATA logo). They wanted to rank test me TWO WEEKS IN, for the low, low price of 60 bucks.

First month was a trial membership, which I never renewed.

[Chazz]

thats a prob that you run into when you go to HUGE chains of schools. They are so big that they dont have to worrie about you not sticking with them because they have loads of students. And they can charge what they want.

[whitematt]

[thats a prob that you run into when you go to HUGE chains of schools. They are so big that they dont have to worrie about you not sticking with them because they have loads of students. And they can charge what they want.]

That's actually a bit of a misconception. ATA schools are not chains, they are simply affiliated under that organization - kind of like WTF. There are some instructors that own multiple schools, but for the most part one instructor owns one school.

Since instructors own there own schools, they are allowed to charge whatever they like for classes, testings, gear, etc. While the organization may make recommendations regarding fees and pricing, the school owner makes the final decisions.

I only wish I had so many students coming in that I didn't have to worry about retaining the current ones. Recruiting new students is always a bit of a challenge, but the most important students I have are the ones that show up tonight to train. I go to great lengths to ensure they are getting the best possible training, without trying to empty their pockets in the process.

Matt White

[iceman06]

I am sick of all this ATA vs WTF crap. A school is a school no matter ATA, WTF or ABCDEFG....some may be good and some may be bad period. I am ATA and I am in better shape now than I have ever been and I played college football. I love the professionalism of ATA. We have 3 instructors leave the WTF schools to teach ATA, does that mean their WTF schools sucked? Maybe does that mean our ATA schools are any better maybe. Its all about the instructors. You get an instructor that knows jack about jack then your school is going to suck plain and simple.

[Nightstrike]

Exactly.
It depends on the school.
it depends on the students.
It depends on the Teachers.

[bvermillion]

I am in the ATA. I have seen flaws in the system. But for what it is it is great. It is Taekwondo; taekwondo as a whole has flaws. The ATA must be doing something right they are the largest martial arts organization by far. Someone asked why everyone bad mouthed the ATA. My response to that is everyone doesn't bad mouth the ATA. Other taekwondo federations bad mouth the ata. They always say it is lonely at the top and the ATA is definately at the top when it comes to enrollment. The ATA's biggest problem is they are so money oriented. I dont think ATA taekwondo is any worse then any other taekwondo. I just depends on the instructor. Back to the money issue: The ata is just ridiculous when it comes to this. There forms are copyrighted for pete's sake. Since when can you copyright martial arts. Martial arts are for everyone. That is like copyrighting the bible. I also agree that the ata has alot of hidden fees. If you want to compete with weapons you have to buy theres, but then again not many takewondo students are given the chance to learn weapons in there dojang. There are many perks in the ata. They offer certification and seminars in numerous things that most taekwondo federations and associations dont even touch on like joint locks, muay thai, numerous weapons, and grappling. You also no pretty much what you are going to get when you go from one ata school to the next. Heck you can go to two schools in other federations and they don't even teach the same forms. Sorry about how terrible the order and wording of this post is. My thoughts are just a little jambled.

[azn tiger]

Exactly.
It depends on the school.
it depends on the students.
It depends on the Teachers.

I agree with this. I can promise you that there are just as many excellent ATA schools as there are WTF or ITF school. I can also promise that there are just as many bad ones as the other two have. If the teacher is good it doesn't matter what it is whether it be ATA, ITF, WTF, ITC, ITA, etc. Our master has been done ITF, ITC, and ATA. He shows us both ITF, ATA styles and teaches us about both philosopys. He is a great teacher and I would like anyone to say to him or any of his black belts that ATA sucks. My master was a marine and fought in Vietnam. He tells students to never suprise him because he gets vietnam flash backs. i have seen two examples of this. In his self defense class(which he also teachs at the college) a kid tried to put him in a choke hold while he was sitting down doing grades. He flipped that kid straight over his back and slammed him on the desk so fast. The other time, also in his self defense class, my master was just standing there and this kid tried to rush him. My master threw a side kick and literally lifted the kid in the air and sent him flying back. He has also won many fighting championships and as far as ata being sport, he is more into teaching us the leathal side of it, he shows us only what will really work, not sport tkd. ATA is a newer system that is influenced by chinese martial arts, unlike ITF which was influenced by japanese martial arts. Most japanese martial arts are more hand orientated and chinese more feet orientated. If you notice there are no kicks in ITF until do san and all it is are two front kicks. then won hyo only has two side kicks. Then yol gulk only has two front kicks and two side kicks joong gun only has two side sicks and two front kicks. You don't even see very many kicks all the way until the seventh form, toi gye. Thats not very many kicks for a martial art that is supposed to have powerful and dynamic kicks. ATA was created to show the strong kicks that tkd has to offer. If any of you know anything about ata forms you will notice that in the very first form, songahm 1 you have two front kick, and two side kicks. ATA doesn't wait until the 3 form to introduce a front kick and 4th form to introduce the side kick. In the second form songahm 2 there are 4 round kicks and 2 front kicks. They don't wait until the 8th form wha rang to introduce the round kick such as in ITF. By the third form you already have two #3 jump front kicks along with many other kicks. and in songahm 4 you already have reverse side kicks. So to sum it all up it all comes down to the teacher. when you are looking for a good school sit in on a class. watch the students. if they are doing things that you would like to learn or have your child learn that is a good place to start. If the students are high spirited, well behaved and have seem to be pretty disciplined it is always a good sign. Just because the teacher has won lots of trophys or can do incredible kicks or break incredible amouts of boreds/bricks doesn't make them a good teacher. If couldn't do these things they would not be the rank they are. Look at his students, that is how you will know if the teaching is good.

[neryo_tkd]

ATA doesn't wait until the 3 form to introduce a front kick

are you saying that other TKD organisations teach the first 3 forms without any leg kicks? :confused:

[azn tiger]

are you saying that other TKD organisations teach the first 3 forms without any leg kicks? :confused:

I am not saying that in TKD schools there are not any kicks taught, but in ITF the first kicks seen are in the 3rd form, do san. the high yellow belt. Which system are you familiar with? ITF, ATA, WTF, other? I am familiar with ITF and ATA. I know a little about WTF, but very little, not enough to really make statements about.

[neryo_tkd]

I am not saying that in TKD schools there are not any kicks taught, but in ITF the first kicks seen are in the 3rd form, do san. the high yellow belt. Which system are you familiar with? ITF, ATA, WTF, other? I am familiar with ITF and ATA. I know a little about WTF, but very little, not enough to really make statements about.


I teach WTF and in the very 1st Taegeuk form you have apchagi.

[azn tiger]

If I am not mistaken in WTF there is no form for white belt, is that correct? Taeguek 1 is the yellow belt form isn't it? What is the belt system for WTF?

ITF: white/high white= chun ji, yellow=don gun, high yellow=do san, green=won hyo, high green=yul guk, blue=joong gun, high blue=toi gye, red=wha rang, high red, black, i don't know any forms past wha rang or the names of any past it.

ATA: white=songahm 1, orange=songahm 2, yellow=songahm 3, camoflauge= songahm 4, green=songahm 5, purple=in wha 1, blue=in wha 2, brown= choong jung 1, red=choong jung 2, recommended black(red black), black. i don't know any forms past choong jung 1 or the any of the names past choong jung 2.

[neryo_tkd]

If I am not mistaken in WTF there is no form for white belt, is that correct? Taeguek 1 is the yellow belt form isn't it? What is the belt system for WTF?

ITF: white/high white= chun ji, yellow=don gun, high yellow=do san, green=won hyo, high green=yul guk, blue=joong gun, high blue=toi gye, red=wha rang, high red, black, i don't know any forms past wha rang or the names of any past it.

ATA: white=songahm 1, orange=songahm 2, yellow=songahm 3, camoflauge= songahm 4, green=songahm 5, purple=in wha 1, blue=in wha 2, brown= choong jung 1, red=choong jung 2, recommended black(red black), black. i don't know any forms past choong jung 1 or the any of the names past choong jung 2.


You are more than welcome to use the SEARCH button above and find the threads in which we discussed the belt system.

There is a so called form for higher white belt and the leg kick is also there.

But what does it matter if ITF forms teach leg kicks later? If there are no leg kicks in the 1st ITF form, I'm pretty sure they learn them in class. If leg kicks are introduced only in the 3rd form, they definitely don't wait till then to start learning them.

[power]

i'm so sick of peaple descriminating against ata!!!!! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:


you just have to find a good school man i'm so pist!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

I apologize for your current frame of emotion.

Please remember the TOS as this community is pretty intolerant to foul "overly expressive" language!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

[Ikken Hisatsu]

with a lot of traditional arts, you have to sift through the mud to find the good schools. with some arts, you have to sift for a while...

[whitematt]

i'm so sick of peaple descriminating against ata!!!!! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:


you just have to find a good school man i'm so pist!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:


Honestly... what do you care? Just do what you enjoy, work hard, be the best you can be.

[hux]

Honestly... what do you care? Just do what you enjoy, work hard, be the best you can be.


true dat. Some of us worry too much ;)

[TheMadhoose]

The Chang Hon tuls dont incorporate kicking until Do-San Tul learned at yellow belt green stripe. But front side and turning kick are taught almost from day one. just becuse its not in the patterns doesnt mean it isnt taught at all, otherwise wed only be learning a handfull of techniques compared to the thousands that make up the syllabus.

[power]

dear spookey,

i appologise for my language i was tired and i little upset.