Whats after blackbelt?

[Kwajman]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.

[Thomas]

Much of it really depends on how confident you feel in your ability in your style (TKD, is it?) and how secure you would feel in teaching it.

At our TKD school, we usually start red belts with leading warm ups and supervising forms instruction or basic kicks... to give them a feel for teaching. At 1st dan, we usually do warm ups fairly often and occassionally run an entire class (or a half)... and often are put in charge of teaching forms or doing one on one training with new white belts. At 2nd dan and up, we are expected to be able to teach classes when asked. Beyond that, we haven't really seen a need to do more. We don't plan on expanding the school and I personally would like a few more years before I would open my own.

Of course, there is the issue of availability... how many black belts do you have in your system and area. When my master first moved into the area, he was put in charge of a school as a 1st dan... because he was a senior student who had spent a great deal of time with the grandmaster and deemed "ready".

In my opinion, I would recommend talking to your master about his/her expectations of you. By "teaching", what was meant? Warmups and some classes or entire classes? I would tell my master that I need time to learn how to teach and would like to try working as an assistant for a year or so and then re-think the whole deal. For me, the time spent from 1st to 2nd dan was really crucial in tightening up my techniques and improving myself as a martial artist. From 2nd to 3rd (awaiting certification) has been a great deal of work in learning how to teach the material... and learning more about myself.

Reaching "black belt" really is just the beginning of the learning... and many would add, the teaching, part of the process. In the circle of learning, one ends up teaching at some point. Good luck

[Kwajman]

Thank you for your response Thomas, I have no problem leading warmups, teaching forms, things along those lines. What my instructor will do is leave town for a week or two and leave the blackbelts in charge of the classes. I guess its a matter of worrying about if I make a mistake or say something wrong, will it come back to haunt me or will a lower belt respect me less because I've given wrong information.

[johndoch]

If you dont want to do it dont do it. If you do go for it you may be shortchanging your students especially with your current attitude

[YODA]

What does your instructor hope to gain by forcing you to teach?

If the answer is money then as they say "Houston, we have a problem"

[Andrew Green]

Some people are just not meant to teach.

Nothing will change that, especially when it comes to kids...

[YODA]

Very true Andrew. That goes for many things in life - you can learn a lot about a person by observing how they relate to children.

[Kwajman]

Actually I love working with the kids. I taught the 'Little Dragons' course for a year and really enjoyed it. However I recognize my skills aren't on par with a lot of students and wouldn't want to let them down.

[Thomas]

A good teacher to me is one who admits that s/he doesn't know everything. Often in class, I may answer "I don't know... but I will find out" and I follow up on this. If I make a mistake, I say that it was a mistake and correct it... to me it would be worse to perpetuate a mistake just because I wouldn't admit it.

Also, I tend to do lots of extra practice on the techniques before I teach them (that way, I am doing them well... not just suddenly). Also, I pick students to demonstrate after I observe them... for example, even though I can do and teach the various jumping and spinning kicks, I like to show them a few times and then get one of the young, hungry red or black belts to demonstrate it. Can they do it better then me? Yes... but I taught them how. When I see a student do something a bit differently, I ask why... and then sometimes share/steal it!

It's okay to make mistakes teaching... if we were all perfect instructors, why would I have to bother continuing to learn? If your skills aren't up to par... work on them. That's why you usually see the older black belts (and younger ones too) coming in before class and staying after... to practice their techniques to keep up with the students!

By the way, it would be a good idea, as the other posters said, to find out why your master wants you to teach (and how much)... if it is for moeny, that's not good. However, I know that some TKD schools require a certain amount of teaching for consideration to higher dan promotion...

[Kwajman]

Thank you all for your comments. Its got me thinking about some things.

[Jim]

I've trained two others to BB standard and expected them to open their own classes. When they didn't I was really annoyed, but it was their choice not mine. I would prefer that someone did after I got them to that stage but not for any monetary concerns, only to have another place to train and to gather more students.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Actually I love working with the kids.

Thats the most important thing right there.

If you don't like kids, you'll never be able to teach them well.

Some people don't like kids, those people shouldn't attempt to teach kids.

If you enjoy working with kids, go for it. Your skill will improve as you do it.

[Kof_Andy]

Starting a new school right after black belt would only be a branch of mc dojo. 1st dan is too soon for that in my opinion. However if your instructor ask you to help out, because he had to be gone for a week or two, why not? I would be mad too, if my student saids NO! I think you old your instructor at least that much. I kind of agree with your instructor, any advance BB should be out there making a difference for the newer student. Is the only way to make your art shrine, one teacher cannot possibly pass on the art by himself/herself. Of corse it dosent mean you should open a school and go pro, but teaching once in awhile is still benifical to you and the newer seeds.
I dont agree with what you said entirely Thomas. "A good teacher to me is one who admits that s/he doesn't know everything. Often in class, I may answer "I don't know... but I will find out" and I follow up on this. If I make a mistake, I say that it was a mistake and correct it... to me it would be worse to perpetuate a mistake just because I wouldn't admit it. "

Yes a good teacher is one who admits, he dosent know everything. We are not perfect, nobody is perfect. However I would never reply to my student with a "I dont know answer". I might be asked on a subject that I'm not fully experience on, but I would still offer them my piece of advice and opinion on what I think. Then I would research on it, and correct what I miss interupte if I had any false statment.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Helping the instructor out is fine of course. Giving back something is good. Yet if you do not wish to run right out and start your own school, well then, don't.

And if the instructor is using others without payment, that is completely incorrect to do. Having others teach while being out of town is fine, if they agree, and if the payment is fair for it; when I leave town I split the monthly income precisely between myself and my assistant, based on who taught for how long.

Teaching is certainly rewarding, and much can be learned by doing it. BUT... one need not teach in order to learn. If you help out in class, you are not being selfish. If you get resistence from the instructor on this issue, ask yourself exactly what they want and why.

What we do is a never ending road, and at any given time we are SOMEWHERE on that road. It just goes on, and on. Training and learning is forever. Just because someone hands you a piece of pretty cloth to wear, does not mean that this is somehow done, that you have "finished". I get the feeling that you already know this well enough but it is good to be reminded sometimes that rank is really meaningless except to yourself, as a benchmark, if you need it.

The day you stop learning, you may as well just get a shovel, dig a hole, and get in it.

-Chris J.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
Starting a new school right after black belt would only be a branch of mc dojo. 1st dan is too soon for that in my opinion.


Umm... depends on how the belts are awarded.

How about Brazillian Juijitsu where most schools don't even have a black belt? Run by Brown, Purple or even Blues?

Belts don't mean anything, ability does.

[morphus]

My point of view : Teaching has it's plus's & minus's.
Though you've reached your BB, that doesn't mean you have all knowledge as you quite rightly stated; teaching can give you a new perspective of the art & it's techniques.
It can help you to learn to communicate with people(good if you are shy) on a personal level & on a commercial level & can look good on your CV if you so wish to use it as part of your character profile. You also break the art & it's techniques right down to nuts & bolts & by piecing it back together, your own understanding, practice & application of techniques improve.

The drawbacks are that there is less time for your own cardio training; if you are painfully shy it can be a tough time.

The answer i think, is to consider teaching as long as it doesn't take over your whole time in the dojo/ang.

Whatever decision you make, make sure you are comfortable with it. Good luck.:)

[Kwajman]

Wow, some great answers, thanks everyone!

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
I dont agree with what you said entirely Thomas. "A good teacher to me is one who admits that s/he doesn't know everything. Often in class, I may answer "I don't know... but I will find out" and I follow up on this. If I make a mistake, I say that it was a mistake and correct it... to me it would be worse to perpetuate a mistake just because I wouldn't admit it. "

Yes a good teacher is one who admits, he dosent know everything. We are not perfect, nobody is perfect. However I would never reply to my student with a "I dont know answer". I might be asked on a subject that I'm not fully experience on, but I would still offer them my piece of advice and opinion on what I think. Then I would research on it, and correct what I miss interupte if I had any false statment.

Yes, I see your point but also believe it really depends on the situation. What I am refering to is usually in self defence scenarios... if it is a situation I am unfamiliar with, I may try to walk through an idea but in some specific cases, I would rather talk to someone else, hopefully with more knowledge or experience in the matter, then I can come back and offer several realistic and practical solutions to the student instead of one technique that may or may not work.

I think the danger is where an instructor never admits not knowing something and they teach stuff to their students that may not work. I am an instructor and I think my students are pretty good. I am not afraid to admit where I am weak and where I need to work... because that leads to more lessons for me and my students.

Here's an example. We have been adding a bit of cross training in grappling in to class. It is not my strongest suit. A student asked me about defences against a single or double leg takedown. I said "I'll get back to you"... and then I worked with the master and our resident grappling guy and played through some techniques. Some of the ones that I came up off the top of my head didn't work as well as from the more experienced guys. I went back to that student and shared the info and practiced with him... good for everyone all around. Did it hurt the students' impression of me or of my ability? No, and actually it reiforced the idea that I will try to teach them what works best... not just stuff off the top of my head.

Different philosophies, I guess

[KungFuGrrrl]

I agree with that thought Andrew.
I was taught *a belt holds up your pants*

We do have a color system but only ten levels. that is so student can gauge their progress.
and no black belt all of our sashes are black trimmed in a color.
It is about skill. You put that very well.

[JOE-DAN]

first open the door,you will find it will be the same on the other side

[Kalifallen]

I agree with everyone. All great views.
Kwajman, your teacher is wrong to think ALL his black belts will become instructors/teachers of his dojo or another. That should be YOUR choice, NOT his. I think it'd be admirable if he let the black belts teach in his dojo and open up their own dojo of his style, but to say you should teach because you are a black belt in plain wrong. If that was true then everyone with a Master's or Phd should be teachers but they all aren't now are they?

What's are black belt? To me, after black belt belts truely don't matter. It is the time of mastering your art and creating or improving your style.
Of course, belts shouldn't matter before hand, but the reason I say it is you are taught different things for each belt/rank. So, at the time of white, red, blue, brown, etc, it mattered, in a way, because you finally got to learn a roll or breakfall or flip or something new and more advance. After black you know it all, except for may be some of the fine details. So, after black belts really don't matter.

P.S. If you want experiance in teaching, like if you wanted to may be open a dojo in the future, or teach and friend or family member, or do private lessons. Then do it. Help instruct the class of the couple of weeks the teacher is gone. If you make mistakes it'll be okay. The kids should be smart enough to know mistakes happen and just because you are a black belt it doesn't mean you are a great teacher.

[pgm316]

Personally I don't want to teach. I don't enjoy it. And in a selfish way I think theres more productive ways to spend my time.

[TOMcatXENO]

Man do what you want teach if you must but hey its not your career

[JohnnyX]

Whats after blackbelt?

Everything. After all, isn't 1st Dan and Expert-Beginner. :eek:

Cheers. :)

[Brad Ellin]

What's after black belt? The beginning. Now you truly start learning. If YOU feel you're ready to teach, then by all means. Help out. Assist others in your class. But you shouldn't be expected to start teaching right off the bat. Unless that's something you want to give a go at. Follow you're heart and head and don't let someone else make the decision for you.

[Yang, Dae-han]

Kwaj,

Well, I don't enyy you. If your instructor expects that of you, that's sad, teaching is not an obligation. I may be 6th dan before I open my own school, and guess what, my masters don't give a toss. I would, though, on occassion take over schools for other masters....but I offered. They knew I had a life, and there are other things on my plate. I noticed the ones (other masters) that thought that I must open a school (being a master), were like my father, and felt I should follow in their footsteps.

Ummmm, yeah.

As for being a 1st dan and owning a school, well, I think I've posted my 2 pence on that issue before.

Also, if you choose not to take on such responsibilities, and suffer consequences from your current instructor, think of the bright side....you could always train alone. After all, if you are good enough to train others, training yourself is multi-fold easier.

Oh, and train hard, make a holiday to Orlando, FL and I'll test you for your advanced dans, but you MUST open a school under my name AND give me 30%!!! :D .


Cheers,

DH

[Colin Linz]

Shodan (1st Dan) means first step. Every thing you have done before is just the preparation for your first steps into really learning you’re art. Most of the Japanese style will not allow you to start teaching until about Sandan level. Some times they may make an exception, but you will need another instructor to sponsor you and act as a coach for your school.

The phenomenon of starting your own schools when you reach Shodan is one of commercial considerations. It is only done to grow a rapid base for a commercial venture. It does not take into consideration the students best interest, or the long term interest of the art.

[shootodog]

what's after a blackbelt? it's the same answer as what's after lunch/ dinner? it's up to you. nobody can tell you otherwise (unless there's a legal binding contract that says otherwise). it's your life, take responsibility for it.

[Colin Linz]

what's after a blackbelt? it's the same answer as what's after lunch/ dinner? it's up to you. nobody can tell you otherwise (unless there's a legal binding contract that says otherwise). it's your life, take responsibility for it.

Yes, you’re right. Learning a martial art is like going on a trip. You start at one place, have a destination in mind and road map to follow; however you are always free to change your mind on the destination and the route to get there. What you can’t do is say that you have been to that destination, when you have not.

[gojuman]

To become a great student, find a great teacher.
To become a great master, become a great teacher.

[shuyun3]

Shodan (1st Dan) means first step. Every thing you have done before is just the preparation for your first steps into really learning you’re art. Most of the Japanese style will not allow you to start teaching until about Sandan level. Some times they may make an exception, but you will need another instructor to sponsor you and act as a coach for your school.

The phenomenon of starting your own schools when you reach Shodan is one of commercial considerations. It is only done to grow a rapid base for a commercial venture. It does not take into consideration the students best interest, or the long term interest of the art.
I thought basic teching level in traditional Japanese karate was yondan? well any way I agree with your point. shodan is not the perfect time to start teaching. You would have barely perfected yourself at that level, not to mention the fact that some blackbelts are sold by some Mc Dojos rather than earned.

Still on one hand even a beginner may teach provided he understands the nuances and rationales of the techniques (which is rarely the case amoneg beginners). On another hand we are all teachers in a manner of speaking. Just telling your girlfriend how to defend herself is teaching. But the responsibility of formally holding class in the dojo should be reserved to those who are truly qualified to continue the art.

this is indeed a complex topic. For the sake of martial arts without belts and rankings it is usually performance and track record based. If you don't have the confidence to teach then mybe you shouldn't yet.

Other than being a martial artist I too am an English teacher. And using this as an analogy just speaking English does not qualify you as an English teacher.

Ability and pedagogy are different from each other. some can be great fighters but have no ability to pass on their skill simply because they have not really thought of their own method of learning.

But overall I do admire the humility of one who does not place himself in a position of prominence.

[Colin Linz]

I thought basic teching level in traditional Japanese karate was yondan? well any way I agree with your point. shodan is not the perfect time to start teaching. You would have barely perfected yourself at that level, not to mention the fact that some blackbelts are sold by some Mc Dojos rather than earned.

Still on one hand even a beginner may teach provided he understands the nuances and rationales of the techniques (which is rarely the case amoneg beginners). On another hand we are all teachers in a manner of speaking. Just telling your girlfriend how to defend herself is teaching. But the responsibility of formally holding class in the dojo should be reserved to those who are truly qualified to continue the art.

this is indeed a complex topic. For the sake of martial arts without belts and rankings it is usually performance and track record based. If you don't have the confidence to teach then mybe you shouldn't yet.

Other than being a martial artist I too am an English teacher. And using this as an analogy just speaking English does not qualify you as an English teacher.

Ability and pedagogy are different from each other. some can be great fighters but have no ability to pass on their skill simply because they have not really thought of their own method of learning.

But overall I do admire the humility of one who does not place himself in a position of prominence.

I think it comes down to definitions. Anyone can teach self-defence techniques, they may not work, but they can still teach them. Teaching an art it is something else, lets forget about teaching skills for the moment and look at subject skills. How can you tech something yourself, when you are only just beginning to understand it? You can teach your perception of your understanding, but is this teaching the art? Is this good for the student, or art form?

In the west there has been a great number of people start schools or styles because they have just received their Black Belt, just look at all the so called Soke’s running around in America (sorry America, but you do seem to have lots of them). This has led to a lack of depth of knowledge in many of these schools; this is ultimately bad for everyone involved.

[KickChick]

Well Kwajman ... in most schools when students increase in rank, they are required to take on more responsibilities within the school. Many students at black belt level may be required to teach classes.

"Teaching as a tool for learning isn't just restricted in MA. I have found that whatever you are teaching, it helps to further your understanding of the subject"

Read through the posts here on Learning from Teaching (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7917)

I believe your instructor sees something in you that you do not... don't be so intimidated by the idea as you may still meet all your goals and in fact may even exceed them.

[shuyun3]

"Teaching as a tool for learning isn't just restricted in MA. I have found that whatever you are teaching, it helps to further your understanding of the subject"

Read through the posts here on Learning from Teaching (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7917)
I know this happens to me a lot when I teach and wing it I end up teaching myself. And according to learning theories teaching causes the teacher to retain more information than by simply studying it.

But still we should at least have guidelines on what will be the teaching method and what is effective teaching or we end up it ineffective students. That in itself is a big responsibility since we have lives on the line when they intend to use what they learned from us.

Nice pic by the way Ms. Moderator Kickchick. I remember you had a white dobok on you the last time.

[NIKS]

Our Shihan wants us to do whatever we want and like when it comes to those things.
He thinks that you don't have enough knowledge as a BB to start your own sportschool. When you have your BB it only means that you know your basics good. There comes much much more after getting your BB. It's only the beginning and it's only the 1st Dan.
In my opinion, your real karatecareer and karate-exams really starts after getting your BB.
And in my opinion, please don't discuss it's only my opinion, a good Sensei has to have a lot of experience.
With experience I mean:
- Good Basics but also what comes after the basics
- Experience in tournament karate, for example that she/he also did many tournaments
- Understanding how her/his federation works and that she/he is also active in this federation
- Still working on her/his karate techniques
- Has to be a good coach
etc. etc. etc.
Many many things to make you a good Sensei...
Well these are from my opinion to be a good Sensei.
And you can learn these things the best at your sportschool cause not every BB has these kinda experience.
You said that your Sensei/Shihan wants you to start your own sportschool, well if you don't want that, just tell him and do what you would like to do.
I would not advise you to do things that you don't want to do cause it often gets wrong. You have to do what you think is right to do...
Good luck with that!!

xxx

[KickChick]

I know this happens to me a lot when I teach and wing it I end up teaching myself. .......But still we should at least have guidelines on what will be the teaching method and what is effective teaching or we end up it ineffective students.


I agree !

I am sure that the master instructor of the school is not going to let an instructor simply "wing it".
At our school a syllabus is followed and the master instructor ensures that the bb instructor covers a certain curriculum at each class... ie. target drills, sparring, forms, floor techniques, etc. etc....
I would only assume that the master instructor will closely evaluate their newly appointed instructors to see just how effective they are.

Nice pic by the way Ms. Moderator Kickchick. I remember you had a white dobok on you the last time

... how observant ! :)
Yes, time for a change ... black is more slimming! ;)

[Mo Lung]

My understanding and ability in kung fu has increased more since I started teaching than ever before, for what that's worth. It also reminds me how far I still have to go.

[LeadLegger]

I don't know if this has been said, but blackbelt is not the end. It's only the beginning. A blackbelt means you've mastered the basics :love:

[Colin Linz]

Teaching within the confines of your dojo is quite acceptable as you are still under the guidance of your instructor; this is just another developmental tool and challenge your instructor has set for you. Sometimes students are called upon to teach when a sensei can’t make it to training; this is also acceptable, providing they meet the guidelines of whatever governing body you have. In Australia this would be a level 1 coaching accreditation.

Where the problems occur is when people start their own schools before they have sufficient knowledge, and don’t have the regular support of a sensei. This is what causes training accidents, loss of depth of knowledge, and poor public image.

Yes teaching is a great way to learn and continue your development; however these benefits must be tempered with your obligation to your art and students. My maths is terrible, but I have taught it in life skill courses. Would I teach it to school kids doing their final years of schooling? No way! It would be irresponsible for me to do so; I don’t have the skill or knowledge.

[shuyun3]

I am sure that the master instructor of the school is not going to let an instructor simply "wing it".
oh by the way i don't "wing it" regarding the martial arts. I meant my highschool english class room when the students catch me flatfooted (extremely gifted lot). Hehe:p


... how observant ! :)
Yes, time for a change ... black is more slimming! ;)
you kinda looked tougher back then though. Any way change is good.

Nice thread this one is.

[Kwajman]

I find this all very interesting. My current school is much different than my first. It is very laid back, you ARE expected to help with classes. It could be in a large way or a small way. Usually starting with the kids. Thanks for all the input gang.

[Tomanak]

What's after a blackbelt? Your Gi pants.

It's all a matter of perspective, my friends.

[Nightstrike]

Should blackbelts teach?
Yes.
Instruct, not neccesarily
I am so lucky to go to the dojang I do, the master is a totally awsome nice guy and the teachers are great and the black belts are very helpfull, as they help me correct myself when i'm doing stuff wrong.
but if he automatically says, start instructing a class I gotta frown at that.(unless he'd be offering something for it, because you ARE paying.)

[Lanakin]

After black belt is the white belt.

:woo:

[Pete Ticali]

I think there are very valid points on both sides of this discussion. Ultimately, it always becomes a personal choice of the "student".

Having said that, I wonder how many of you have ever thought about the "learning" attached to the "teaching".

Teaching creates a unique opportunity for the teacher to learn. One needs a lot more than personal ability to be a good teacher. Everyone learns differently and a teacher must adapt his style to fit the student. He/she can't merely be a robot who says this is the way. The way is different for all and the teacher must come to know "all" ways to guide each to find their own.

Students have the luxury of blaming poor teaching for their failures or lack of progress. In truth I have to agree... To see the student, is to know the teacher.

I'd like to suggest that those who deem themselves superior martial artists ought to walk a while in a teachers shoes. Anyone can find a way to accomplish themselves. The real question is whether you have what it takes to cause the accomplishment of the generations that follow.

Remember, Immortality doesn;t come from living forever. It comes from those we have touched, who will remember us always. Make that your goal.

just my .02

Pete Ticali

[Colin Linz]

1. I think there are very valid points on both sides of this discussion. Ultimately, it always becomes a personal choice of the "student".

2. Having said that, I wonder how many of you have ever thought about the "learning" attached to the "teaching".

3. Teaching creates a unique opportunity for the teacher to learn. One needs a lot more than personal ability to be a good teacher. Everyone learns differently and a teacher must adapt his style to fit the student. He/she can't merely be a robot who says this is the way. The way is different for all and the teacher must come to know "all" ways to guide each to find their own.

4. Students have the luxury of blaming poor teaching for their failures or lack of progress. In truth I have to agree... To see the student, is to know the teacher.

5. I'd like to suggest that those who deem themselves superior martial artists ought to walk a while in a teachers shoes. Anyone can find a way to accomplish themselves. The real question is whether you have what it takes to cause the accomplishment of the generations that follow.

Remember, Immortality doesn;t come from living forever. It comes from those we have touched, who will remember us always. Make that your goal.

just my .02

Pete Ticali
1. Whatever art or teacher the student decides to go with is certainly there choice, but does this mean that if a teacher has many students they are better at teaching than another teacher that only has a few students? I would say no, they might be a better at business, or the other teacher might value smaller classes.

2. Constantly, it was first brought home to me when I started teaching (Technical College, not Martial Arts).

3. Very true.

4. This has come about with the western style of teaching. The Japanese method is a little bit different. The responsibility to learn is on the student. The teacher is there to demonstrate and guide, but not to take you by the hand and explain everything. It is up to the student to take notes, ask the right questions, observe and copy his teacher. This is the process of Shu, from the learning stages of Shu, Ha, Ri. Is this a better teaching method? I don’t really know, I like explanations; however the Japanese method has historically produced some very fine results.

[Pete Ticali]

Thanks Colin

Your input is very good.

Regarding point one... You are very correct regarding the Quantity vs. Quality issue. Actually I didn't mean to address that. Although it is unfortunately rare, I think there can be "commercial" sucess and good teaching. They are not totally exclusive of each other, even if it becomes more difficult to give the personal attention each student requires to excell.

It is here that the "art" of Teaching is most apparent. I do not mean to insult anyone, but I believe good teaching requires more skill than learning, and since we all will be teachers at some point in our lives ( not necessarily Martial Arts, but as parents, business leaders, community participants, etc. etc.); it is a natural requirement that "teaching" be a required Martial Arts Skill. We do not leave our martial arts at the school. We carry it with us throughout our lives in all things, not just kicking and punching.

With courtesy and respect

Pete Ticali

[Colin Linz]

I didn’t mean to imply that large schools are not good at teaching, just that they are not necessarily a product of good teaching.

In Australia now, you are not allowed to teach a martial art in a Government funded facility (local, State, or federal) unless you have at least Level One Coaching Accreditation. This is run under the Federal Governments National Coaching Accreditation Scheme, and is administered by the MAIA (Martial Arts Industry Association). This course focuses on the areas of coaching that many martial arts don’t cover. Things like Motivational techniques, Communication skills, Instructional skills, Exercise physiology, Nutrition, ethics, and Drug use in sports. I think that this is a good starting point, and will only be of benefit to the martial art community in the future. There are just too many people out there who think because they are good at martial arts, they are good teachers. Where I train from there is a Gymnastic group, they have done very well in competitions nationally and internationally. There head coach is not a Gymnast, but the father of one. The other coaches don’t seem to be very Gymnastic either,. This doesn’t mean they don’t understand Gymnastics and has not stopped them from teaching the skills to their students.

[Reiki]

We aren't expected to teach, and if we don't want to then we don't.

However as we progress up the ranks we are expected to help out with being an active part of the grading panels [from brown belt upwards], and commit our time and energy to it just as someone did for us when we were grading. From green belt upwards we are expected to help out more in the dojo, and from brown belt upwards this is 2nd nature in keeping discipline and the lower ranks in line.

I think one of the best things that teaching can bring is a sense of where you are and how you can improve your technique. I have been teaching for some time now and find that it has really forced me to look objectively at my technique and work for improvement in everything that I do.

Learning doesn't stop at shodan, it merely continues onwards from there. The best thing is to see the results of your teaching and recognise excellence when you see it in your students! :)

Personally I love the challenge that teaching brings and love to work with other MA students teaching them anything. Knowledge & learning is joy.

[Pete Ticali]

Colin & Reiki

Colin; I understood your point(s). Large rooms (big schools) require diferent skillsets than intimate ones. These skillsets are many times lacking in our
art(s). We weren't taught them from our instructors ( who taught in a more different enviornment then the modern times we live in.

THis brings up your very pertinent discussion about certifications and/or licensing of schools/instructors. I am very familiar with MAIA, infact their President will be speaking at my Action Martial Arts Trade Show next weekend in Atlantic City, NJ. They are along with other alternatives, a good method of educating our future teachers.

I (like most Americans) am not a fan of goverment regulation of our art. It generally becomes merely a revenue stream for the gov. agency and usually lacks the historical and/or technical knowledge to govern adequately. I prefer our self regulation which could / should include organizational instruction ( like Griff's in this forum) that allows us to self educate and build this knowledge, as well as its requirement, into our gradeing regimen. IF we don;t police our industry/art; it is assured that sooner or later, someone will!

Reiki
Please don't take offense, but "Learning doesn't end at Shodan" is a very common misconception. The correct statement is "Learning begins at Shodan". The kyu ranks are elementary & secondary foundations. You are allowed to enter the real University thereafter to begin a lifetime of learning.
THis comment may draw the ire of many here, but it requires time and age to understand.

Your comments about the value of teaching to improve your techniques shows excellent insight. Your students, and their questions, problems, unique mis-interpretations and the like, force you to constantly re-evaluate both how you present and how you look at those things you just took for granted. A good instructor learns something from his students in every class.

My best
Pete Ticali

[Sgt_Major]

Not being anywhere near the same level of ability or skill as most of you, I feel my answer may be found lacking.....but the way I see it is like this:

If Im good enough to make it to the stage where Im capable of teaching others, I will. I think its important for us to do so in order to keep our arts alive. As to what is after 'black belt' my answer would be: exactly the same as what there was before it. Its a learning curve, not a learning line. Life long learning means learning for the length of your life, and thats what I hope to do.

just my 1p, cos im skint and cant afford 2p :p

[alex_000]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.



A black belt means a lot when you receive it , but it 'll mean nothing after a couple of years if you stop training when you receive it.

Keep training at least 1-2 times a week, don't loose your skills.

Apart from that do what ever you want about the teaching thing, but I wouldn't reccomend doing it only because your teacher says you should. You won't be good at it if you fell this way.

[Shadow Wolfie]

If your not going to have fun teaching, there is no reason you have to teach. My advice to you is not to instruct.

[bcbernam777]

Thank you for your response Thomas, I have no problem leading warmups, teaching forms, things along those lines. What my instructor will do is leave town for a week or two and leave the blackbelts in charge of the classes. I guess its a matter of worrying about if I make a mistake or say something wrong, will it come back to haunt me or will a lower belt respect me less because I've given wrong information.
I you where to sttart a school simply because it was exected of you, and not because you wanted to then you would be very disapointed and disallusioned. You have to really want to, because if you dont you will probably grow to dislike your superiors and your students. Your instructor should be big enouhg to understand this, in my experiance the ones calling you selfish are actually the ones being selfish because they are insisting that you do what they want you to do. Do what whats right (you already know the answer to that)

[Colin Linz]

Colin & Reiki

Colin; I understood your point(s). Large rooms (big schools) require diferent skillsets than intimate ones. These skillsets are many times lacking in our
art(s). We weren't taught them from our instructors ( who taught in a more different enviornment then the modern times we live in.

THis brings up your very pertinent discussion about certifications and/or licensing of schools/instructors. I am very familiar with MAIA, infact their President will be speaking at my Action Martial Arts Trade Show next weekend in Atlantic City, NJ. They are along with other alternatives, a good method of educating our future teachers.

I (like most Americans) am not a fan of goverment regulation of our art. It generally becomes merely a revenue stream for the gov. agency and usually lacks the historical and/or technical knowledge to govern adequately. I prefer our self regulation which could / should include organizational instruction ( like Griff's in this forum) that allows us to self educate and build this knowledge, as well as its requirement, into our gradeing regimen. IF we don;t police our industry/art; it is assured that sooner or later, someone will!

Reiki
Please don't take offense, but "Learning doesn't end at Shodan" is a very common misconception. The correct statement is "Learning begins at Shodan". The kyu ranks are elementary & secondary foundations. You are allowed to enter the real University thereafter to begin a lifetime of learning.
THis comment may draw the ire of many here, but it requires time and age to understand.

Your comments about the value of teaching to improve your techniques shows excellent insight. Your students, and their questions, problems, unique mis-interpretations and the like, force you to constantly re-evaluate both how you present and how you look at those things you just took for granted. A good instructor learns something from his students in every class.

My best
Pete Ticali
Pete,

I don’t know if we are talking about the same MAIA. The one I’m referring to is an Australian body.

I completely understand you thoughts regarding the technical aspects. The MAIA doesn’t handle this side of things. You only have to show that you have the technical ability via grading certificates and history of participation. So your individual martial arts governing body still controls this. Their courses don’t have any martial arts content. They are only concerned that you have knowledge of teaching principles, communication, motivation, exercise physiology, first aid, and drug issues within a sporting context.

[Pete Ticali]

Colin

My comments about credentials, and the mention of MAIA were in response to a previous post(s?), but were NOT connected. Sorry if they seemed that way, it was just my mind racing quicker than my typing fingers.

By the way, I believe that MAIA of Australia, is an "expansion" of MAIA of the USA; I frankly don't know if it is set up as "seperate" companies or such, but it is in fact the same organization

Pete

[Colin Linz]

I haven't heard this mentioned. Check this link and see if it looks like a similar organisation. http://www.maia.com.au/home.htm Is yours a not for profit body?

[Pete Ticali]

Colin
I just took a look at a copy of one of MAIA (USA's) magazine that was sent to me. I'm not a member, but this should not be assumed to have any significant pos/neg sentiments attached to it.

Anyway, I remembered seeing an "over the pond" reference. Now that I look at it.... it says MAIA,UK.... so I Am probably/possibly wrong. I just assumed that MAIA was MAIA....

SORRY

Pete Ticali

[Colin Linz]

I don’t know who was established first but you would think they would research a little first before deciding on names. Not that it’s overly important, but it could cause confusion when dealing with third party multi national companies.

[Pete Ticali]

Colin
I've been accused of being a cynic........at times

It is possible that whomever was "second" felt it was "legal" because it wasn't "enforceable" internationally, AND that it gave the 2nd an international face where none existed..

Just possibly, the first didn't put up a argument.... for the same reason

Pete

[Bograt]

The problem with a lot of instructors and I think this will be born out by others is that they are able to teach up to black belt level then run out of ideas it is easier for them if the new BB starts teaching as it take the preasure of the instructor. If your instructor is a 2nd 3rd Dan then it gives him a little leeway but still again it becomes repetative for the new BB. As an instructor myself I would be tempted to learn other styles, as I have done; so you can give the new BB a new challenge or I could suggest the BB took up another style and bring back what they had learnt if they wished.

However I think it is quite incesitive for him to be calling you selfish I don't think he would be happy if you opened your own club and moved to a new association. So if your not happy to take a class or open up elswhere tell him.

I have a number of lower grades who I allow to take a warm up or stretch from time to time and with some I will partner them with other students who need a little help. This is not due to lazyness but a way of building confidence. If a student did not wish to take the warm up etc then thats fine that does not meen they are selfish it shows they still lack that confidence.

If your reluctance is down to confidence then tell him you will only take it if he observes you over a matter of weeks and give you constructive feed back.

Hope it goes well.

[JTiedes]

Belts don't mean anything, ability does.


i whole heartedly agree with this statement. my old kenpo school was small and shrinking. we had about 50 students, our head isntructor had quit, and our new head instructor(formerly instructor) was pressed for time becuase he was a college student. so we now had 1 head, and 2 assistant instructors. i was asked (at orangebelt) to start teaching classes. it wasnt becuase i had a high level belt, or becuase i was the best at the techniques. i could teach and keep the kids in line, i taught no one over my own level, but it went very well.

never turn down an oppurtunity to teach it improves your own techniques as well( and if its no pay like mine, its good community service)

[mixmastersenior]

This could definitely be a problem for small schools. When one becomes a black belt, the new rank brings new responsiblilty. It may not be teaching a class, it may be orientations for new students, but in any case, the Black Belt is a sign of leadership in the Dojo/Dojang. I completely agree that new Black belts should not take the place of the Headmaster. But if you don't want the classes to get boring and repetitive, then the Head Instructor needs to keep training and learning in order to keep the instruction fresh. If only the Head Instructor teaches, then when are they going to have time to train? Now if there are only one or two Black Belts in the School, the schedule could get tight. One final point, if you want to never stop learning, then start teaching.

[Grind]

For most people who have not yet begun, or are just begining a martial art, blackbelt is where they see the journey's end, so to speak.

It is all too common to hear 'I want to get a blackbelt' 'Are you a blackbelt?' , 'Don't mess with him, he's a blackbelt'. And as such it signifies an ultimate, tangible goal of martial arts ... UNTIL you actually start on your martial journey.

Personally, I wanted a blackbelt as a beginner, then after practising MA for some time I begin to see my blackbelt as the first major hurdle... and now 7 years on I acheived my 1st Dan; I feel that this is where my martial arts journey really begins.

It is now, that I have the foundations, knowledge and ability to really take my own martial arts journey into my own hands - whatever direction that may be, teaching or otherwise.

I can understand an instructor being dissappointed with a protege when he chooses not to follow in his instructors footsteps...but...You should not ever be pressured into teaching and made to feel that you have reached a point where there is nothing more for you unless you do so.

If I were you Kwajman, I'd have a good chat with your instructor and respectfully tell him how you feel and how his comments have made you feel, with the goal of ultimately making sure that you are following your own personal truth at the outcome. After all, that's the reason why we are all in this game....isn't it!?

Just my humble thoughts....

[Hawks]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.

I am curently a second degree brwon belt and my instuctors have had me teaching since I promoted to Brown. This involves helping with the class when one is out on vacation or teaching the advanced belts Kata or bunkai. This next week will be the first time I teach on my own with the other second degree brown belt. I dotn know if i am lucky in the fact that all of the other belts in class are much lower than me so showing them forms and working basics isnt very hard. I do like technique though and we will spend half of the class on self defense technique. My instuctors instuctor feels that in order to reach 3rd dan you need to train someone to black belt so teachning is a huge part for us. I dont envy the situation your in since my instuctor has given me pleanty of time to help instuct before sending me off on my own. I love to teach and I hate to say it but if you dont want to do something like this I dont think you will be very succesfull at it. I dont think its fair that your instuctor is pressuring you on something like this, everyone has their own reasons for training.

[Davey Bones]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.


What scares me the most about this original post is the fact that the poster has specifically said "or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt"! With all due respect, what's more important to this instructor, cash flow or students' fulfillment? Sounds like the latter to me.

I am an undersash at my school, and I am regularly called on to help with other undersashes. I enjoy it, and as Sifu so gleefully pointed out to me the other day, not only am I teaching, but learning. But not everyone wants to be an instructor, and there's nothing wrong with that. Should you assist your intructor? I personally believe the answer is "yes". You've devoted that much time to training, your instructor at least deserves a bit of help, especially if there aren't a lot of bb's around. But notice I said "assist". Work with one or two underbelts. Show them techniques, critique their forms, watch the floor if your instructor has to step off. But if you don't want to all out run a class on a regular basis, then don't. If you feel forced into it, you won't too to well at it I suspect...

[shotokanwarrior]

That instructor is a GIT. :woo: You are under no obligation to teach!!!!!!!

1st Dan is way too early to start teaching. Hell, I'd say 6th Dan is more like it.

If I were you, I'd tell him to kiss my ass.

[Davey Bones]

Ever the mistress of the understatement, huh? :p

You've said in that one sentence everything we've been intellectualizing. :D

[Grind]

[QUOTE=Hawks] I love to teach and I hate to say it but if you dont want to do something like this I dont think you will be very succesfull at it. [QUOTE]

Did you mean if you dont want to teach you will not be successful as a teacher?

Or did you mean that if you don't want to teach you will not be successful as a martial artist?

Cos if you meant the latter, with all due respect, that's ridiculous. :rolleyes:

[Daffy]

i think he meant that if someone doesn't want to teach they won't be good at teaching if forced to. But I don't think this is the case in all situations.

[Kwajman]

[QUOTE=Grind][QUOTE=Hawks] I love to teach and I hate to say it but if you dont want to do something like this I dont think you will be very succesfull at it. [QUOTE]

Thats what I thought also.

[gojuman]

Here is a quote from one of my senseis.

"If you want to be good at something, find a great teacher.
If you want to master something, become a great teacher."

There is nothing better than teaching to help you get better at your own martial art. By teaching you are forced to break things down to basics for your students and by so doing you are continually working your basics and making them stronger.
Don't resist teaching. It might be uncomfortable at first, but as you do it more you will get better and will become a better martial artist by doing it.

[rtkd-badger]

Here is a quote from one of my senseis.

"If you want to be good at something, find a great teacher.
If you want to master something, become a great teacher."

There is nothing better than teaching to help you get better at your own martial art. By teaching you are forced to break things down to basics for your students and by so doing you are continually working your basics and making them stronger.
Don't resist teaching. It might be uncomfortable at first, but as you do it more you will get better and will become a better martial artist by doing it.
My instructor uses me to teach the lower grades, and at first i thought "****, Im paying to learn yet I am teaching what I already know and not learning a damn thing."
Suddenly for some reason I started to get complemented on the way I did my technique's, executed my hyung, perfect stances and so on.
It all comes back to basics, I learn every day.

[Bograt]

And thats the hub.
To teach you must learn.
As a new blackbelt the instructors gift for you is for you to teach, but to teach you must understand the technique yourself so you have to re-evaluate what you know and truely think. That way you start to learn.

[Pete Ticali]

Hi all... after nearly 44 years of training, and having followed a pretty traditional path, I have some specific answers to these questions, but as someone who is both responsibly for my system's standards and is fairly knowledgable of the "new" trends/mistakes of modern martial arts, I can have some critical viewpoints as well.
So hear I go....... Most of us "old guys" have been taught ( and truly believe) that one of your obligations to your instructor is to faithfully pass his/her teachings on. Of course this was normal when kyu ranks didn't become mexican jumping beans that jump from school to school & style to style. Personally, I tell my students that one of their requirements of Promotion is a committment to he next level, so you know up front that you can "pay for a space" if thats all you want, but rank requires "all" the requirements of rank. There are no secrets. You have the ability to decide... But I, and only I set the requirements. Period!. There is no discussion on this subject.

Now let me speak of other comments. The title of Sensei, is usually "available" to 3rd Dan (third degee Black Belts) in traditional schools. It should be noted that many new commercial schools who rank children and turn out 2 yr blackbelts (or less in some cases) could/should not think that the 3rd Dan level is in any way representative. I have mentioned earlier that I have actually changed this requirement in my system. Sensei is available to be given, with or without a 3rd Dan. I have replaced the requirement to now be: A Blackbelt who has a minimum of 5 years of active training and teaching experience. It should be noted that in my system that really translates to approximately 44 months MINIMUM active training to reach 1st Dan. 2 yrs to 2nd Dan, 3 years to 3rd Dan.. In a perfect world, passing every test and active throughout this would be 9 years...

Blackbelts ( 1st, 2nd, etc.) do teach... under the guidence of a Sensei. Brownbelts DO "assist" in class, but always with a higher rank present, or in a time schedule that is denoted as "open time" not a scheduled class.

In my opinion, you have the right to decide your reasons/ purposes for training... If it is for personal knowledge... you need not wear my rank... it's useless to you. If you decide you wish to be acknowledged as a member of a recognised martial arts in the International brother/sister hood of martial artists than you need to fill the requirements of the rank.... You can always find some commercial guy to sell it to you....... but don't think for a moment that we don't know who they & you are.... To see a student but once, is to know his instructor well..

As usual, just my 43 years of .02!

Pete Ticali

[Colin Linz]

Pete,

Nice post, no arguments here.

Some of my thoughts regarding some of the following questions.

Before teaching you need to have the correct level of competence, you also need to have the desire to teach. This is separate from helping to instruct in class as in this case you are being supervised and not introducing new material. My class is small, I like it this way. I also don’t have any senior kenshi, so it is important for me to be there. I would never allow one of my students to take a class without my supervision.

On the issue of further development. I do not need to worry about my further development during class, this is my students time. To ensure my skills continue to develop I go to another branch with a more senior instructor than myself to train regularly. As well as this I ensure that I go to our organisations study sessions and Taikai’s. This is when we get to train with a number of senior Japanese instructors. Our last Taikai (Last Weekend) we had 13 Japanese black belts and senior instructors come out to help us. Our last Study Session (last November) we had 3 very senior instructors from our Hombu come out. This is the best time for me to develop. During normal training I concentrate on what I am teaching and my students needs.

Stale class’. This is a result of training structure, teaching methods, and lesson plans; not who is teaching.

[Omid24]

qulity post - i agree. to say that i fully understand what you ment buy this bag of comments would be a lie. sorry. Nevertheless, i believe i captured the essense of what you said.

in my club, i was assigned to be a kids coach while i was a red belt (like a brown belt). to say it was a mistake would not be true. i couldnt practice at the time. back injury. so as time went by i got more and more skilled the the art of teaching and got real got at it. even though my personal level hasn't improved , i think i gained more than any other black belt in the country.

to me the black blet a was something holy. when i reached it i was so happy i could even express it in words. it wasnt easy to get there (6 years of practice).
when i finnally reached there, i was eager to get the 2nd dan. but after a while it finnally hit me that chasing the next level is not the issue. it was the path i took to get there is what mattered to me. :cool:

at that moment, i devoted my self to an ideal and became something else entirly. i devoted my self to coaching. i wanted other people experiencing what i experiensed. i choose to sacrifise alot of my free time (practice :confused: time) for the soul purpose of coaching other people to beccome black belts.

after a while, i missed the feeling of practice. so i went to practice someplace else. by doing so, i found something more meaningful than sparring techinques. i found the techniques to help me fight my daily events. thus enaching my coaching capabilties and making me art more complete. :D

today i am in korea. learing some more about the inner secrets of taekwondo.
having the time of my life..... :bang:

[Pete Ticali]

Very excellant comments.
In many ways I think it is the core of this discussion. With no disrespect intended to anyone I take note that those who have issues with teaching might believe that they are there for the outer skill, not really being aware that it is a cup only half full ( or half empty).

WE all continue our learning. Teaching is surely one of the best ways to build depth to our outer skill. It requires we re-look & re-think everything we do through the eyes and minds of our student. The only real test of "understanding" is in your ability to assist others to do the same.

Certainly those who wish to remain half full (half empty) can do so, but it would seem to me that they should have contemplated a sport like boxing or wrestling, which has no "Do" attached to it beyond the next bout. This is of course only the humble opinion of a life long martial artist who was derived from a honored line of life long martial artists. I could never not admit my bias in such a matter.

I must tell those younger martial artists that my "old eyes" may not see as well as my "young" ones did, but I have seen more knowledge through these "old instructor's" eyes than I could have ever imagined learning with the bright shiney ones I owned before teaching.

Teaching (properly) is the ultimate training tool for the teacher. I know of no good instructor who does not consider himself a student. If you trust your instructor, stick it out.... I think you will be happy you did.

Pete Ticali

[Omid24]

wow. deep... i am touched.

[Zerocool]

The rest of your life.

[ap Oweyn]

Certainly those who wish to remain half full (half empty) can do so, but it would seem to me that they should have contemplated a sport like boxing or wrestling, which has no "Do" attached to it beyond the next bout. This is of course only the humble opinion of a life long martial artist who was derived from a honored line of life long martial artists. I could never not admit my bias in such a matter.

While I agree with the basic message of your post, I take exception to this. Simply because boxing and wrestling aren't couched in moralistic or culturally exotic terms, that does not mean that there's nothing to it beyond the next bout.

Sports have forever been connected to character development. And while you don't necessarily see much character development in Tyson biting a guy's ear off, I submit that this has more to do with the introduction of business to the discipline of boxing. And I think you'll agree that martial arts have also suffered a fair amount due to the emphasis on business.

The boxing gym up the street from me is a place where lots of kids from low-income, high-crime neighborhoods go to learn the value of discipline, hard work, and respect. Sounds like a "do" to me. A rose by any other name.

It would be a real shame to ever loose the ability to see past false distinctions and recognize the validity of individual approaches.


Stuart

[Colin Linz]

Stuart,

It is certainly true that sports do offer an excellent method to develop character. I think that the difference is that in budo this process is structured and mentored in a defined path. At least it is in my art, we need to study and are graded not only on the technical side, but also the philosophical side. If you look at the stated aims of the different forms of budo (not bushido or kakutogi) you will notice that the reason behind the training is for self development. In general the reason behind sport is to win the match. Yes people do sport for other reasons, but if there was no winner do think the sport would be as popular?

As you mention, boxing offers a lot of benefits; however the benefits are learned more by accident. There is no challenging the participant’s views on humanity or the world; they are not encouraged to think how they fit into this world. There is no syllabus that ensures that coaches teach various aspects of life and character. What gets taught is only what the individual coach understands and wants to teach. Now it still is a very useful tool for self growth, I just think the difference is one of focus and design, and that budo is focused on this outcome and designed to achieve it.

[Pete Ticali]

First aforemost.... If I in any way seemed to insult "any" sport in my previous post, I apoligize. I even stated that I was probably "biased" since I was writing from my Martial Arts philosophy with regard to my answer.

Let it be known that for the last 4 years I have served as the President of The NY Amateur Sports Alliance. The membership of this group are the directors/organizers of Sports from Soccer to Ping pong and include local community through National Olympic Governing bodies. As such I have represented nearly 600,000 amateur sports participants, and have even served on the executive board of our NYC2012 Olympic Bid Committee.

The very last thing I would do is belittle the vast array of benefits that properly run organized sports can do for youth and there families.

I think Colin did a good job of explaining my intent regarding a traditional philosophy of a martial art in this regard. General Sports can (and does) have an excellant by product that is in harmony with this discussion. On the other hand, many of us (martial artists) have come to agree that our "by product" is the many "physical skills" that martial artists become adept at. The "WAY" is our core product.

I realize that this is not a black & white issue. There are many shades (views). To those who would take offense in my previous (or present) post(s), I recognise your right to a viewpoint (in advance) even though I may not share it.

Pete Ticali

[ap Oweyn]

Thanks for the civil answer Peter. You did offer a disclaimer. And I appreciated that, as well as this response. We can certainly agree to disagree and remain cordial. Yes?

For a more detailed response, I'm hopping over to Colin's post. :)

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart,

It is certainly true that sports do offer an excellent method to develop character. I think that the difference is that in budo this process is structured and mentored in a defined path. At least it is in my art, we need to study and are graded not only on the technical side, but also the philosophical side. If you look at the stated aims of the different forms of budo (not bushido or kakutogi) you will notice that the reason behind the training is for self development. In general the reason behind sport is to win the match. Yes people do sport for other reasons, but if there was no winner do think the sport would be as popular?

I see your point. And to some degree, I agree. But the final comment, do I think the sport would be popular if there were no winner, is a good question. To my mind, the experience is very different for the participant than for the spectator. That's a dichotomy that doesn't exist in the same way for nonsportive arts.

So do I think people would still participate in boxing as an endeavor if there were no records kept of winners, losers, and so on? Yeah, I do actually. I think the experience of testing one's limits remains the same regardless of who leaves with the belt.

But do I think it would have a spectatorship without determining a winner or loser? Probably not.

As you mention, boxing offers a lot of benefits; however the benefits are learned more by accident.

I don't think they are engendered by accident though. That's just it. Boxing (for example) may not engender the same values as shorinji. It may engender values so deeply embedded in our culture that they don't even stand out to us as observers. There's no talk of flowing in accordance, for instance. But the value of hard work is one that exists beyond the purely pragmatic necessity of conditioning for the next fight. It is a value (one of many) that carries meaning beyond the gym. And I do think it devalues that experience to suggest that it's either 1) an accident or 2) nonexistent.

There is no challenging the participant’s views on humanity or the world; they are not encouraged to think how they fit into this world. There is no syllabus that ensures that coaches teach various aspects of life and character. What gets taught is only what the individual coach understands and wants to teach. Now it still is a very useful tool for self growth, I just think the difference is one of focus and design, and that budo is focused on this outcome and designed to achieve it.

I think that boxing is being unfairly judged based on the available examples. As I stated before, the business of boxing can provide some less-than-stellar examples of the human condition. But the business of martial arts can as well.

To get an honest assessment of boxing's ability to convey budo, I think you need to look at the neighborhood gyms and community centers, where boxing serves as an alternative to less favourable pasttimes. The one I attended spoke plenty about character and life. And, again, I think it unnecessarily belittles the efforts of those coaches and those fighters to dismiss what they do as "accidental" or "merely sport."

Perhaps it's just a question of perspective. But I've seen at least as much sincere humility and perseverence come out of the boxing gym as I have out of any dojo.


Stuart

[Pete Ticali]

Stuart
Frank intellectual communication of "differing" viewpoints is a gift to all who subscribe (to/with) it. I believe it allows both side the opportunity of questioning/defending and the outcome always improves us; either by modifying our views or reinfocing them.

Truth be known, my choice of boxing/wrestling was motivated by my wish to find pastimes close to martial arts, not by my views about those endeavors. I was being sensitive to readers who might think I was saying go take up tiddlywinks instead of Budo.

I think my point was trying to address teaching as a continueing evolution of ones continued learning. I say "I think" because so long has elapsed from that post that I find myself "defending a position" merely for the sake of defending it. There is no purpose to that. I could easily take the position that most Boxers or wrestlers who get to the top of their games might find training / coaching others "a natural progression to their continued learning".

In essence we (You, Colin, and I) may very well be preaching to the choir. The fact that we recognize these issue has us closer on much of it than the symantics of the issues we are defending.

I can appreciate your points. One of the universal truths of what we do is that there are many different routes , but most often we are all traveling to a common destination. I wish us all a fruitful journey.

Pete Ticali

[ap Oweyn]

Well I certainly should have checked how old the post was before responding to it. It's not really fair to ask you defend something that was so long ago.

I certainly agree that teaching is a logical step in the evolution of learning. No arguments there.

The rest, we chalk up to personal perception, yeah? I can live with that.

Cheers.


Stuart

[Kwajman]

I still disagree that teaching is the next step in becoming a BB.

[ap Oweyn]

I still disagree that teaching is the next step in becoming a BB.

I disagree that it's an essential step. I do agree that it has value in terms of developing a martial artist. But it's not the only route that has value. Not by a long shot.

[Kwajman]

You are right! There are so many avenues to take in MA's that once you've gained your BB you can do so many things. I wonder how many BB's quit after they reach that goal.

[ap Oweyn]

You are right! There are so many avenues to take in MA's that once you've gained your BB you can do so many things. I wonder how many BB's quit after they reach that goal.

The lion's share, I'd guess. It's sad. I think we emphasize the black belt too much. Then when people get it, they get this "no new worlds to conquer" syndrome.

[Colin Linz]

Stuart,

I do understand the values of Boxing, I did it when I was younger. I agree that the commercialisation of sport has much to do with placing pressure on competitors to act outside social morals or sporting rules. I would also agree that an individual Boxing club could produce outstanding personnel development. It certainly is a good at developing an understanding of work ethic and goal setting. All that I’m saying is that Budo was developed primarily as a method of self development, and has a structured pathway towards its aim. This does not mean that a Budo club will always be better at achieving this result than a Boxing club, but rather across the board will have a more consistent result.

I still doubt that any sporting activity would hold the same level of popularity if there were no recognition of a winner.

[Colin Linz]

I still disagree that teaching is the next step in becoming a BB.
Teaching should only be done if you have the desire to do so. I know of 6th dan’s in Japan that do not do so. They may help out within their branch, but that holds far less responsibility and they won't be called sensei.

From a developmental perspective teaching is a great way to improve your own understanding of techniques. I know I have learnt a lot since I started teaching. Teaching allows you to continually revisit basics; practice with a diverse range of people; have your concepts, thoughts and technique challenged; and study the movement of people. This all helps you develop your own skills and helps develop a better understanding of the underpinning principles behind the techniques.

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart,

I do understand the values of Boxing, I did it when I was younger. I agree that the commercialisation of sport has much to do with placing pressure on competitors to act outside social morals or sporting rules. I would also agree that an individual Boxing club could produce outstanding personnel development. It certainly is a good at developing an understanding of work ethic and goal setting. All that I’m saying is that Budo was developed primarily as a method of self development, and has a structured pathway towards its aim. This does not mean that a Budo club will always be better at achieving this result than a Boxing club, but rather across the board will have a more consistent result.

I still doubt that any sporting activity would hold the same level of popularity if there were no recognition of a winner.

That's fair enough. Personally, I believe the rhetoric is more firmly entrenched in martial arts schools. I'm just not convinced that they follow through.

I hear what you're saying though. And perhaps the answer is that a more structured program for self development could be introduced into a boxing curriculum to get the benefits of both worlds.

[Colin Linz]

That's fair enough. Personally, I believe the rhetoric is more firmly entrenched in martial arts schools. I'm just not convinced that they follow through.

I hear what you're saying though. And perhaps the answer is that a more structured program for self development could be introduced into a boxing curriculum to get the benefits of both worlds.

There are certainly many martial arts schools that do a poor job, but then many are not forms of budo, or say they are but don’t understand the term. I think the more established styles of budo all do a good job.

There would be no reason at all that Boxing couldn’t introduce a structured method of self development and a common syllabus. I think they would need to change the focus of competition to themselves rather than against an opponent, but then this is true of some forms of budo too.

[ap Oweyn]

I think they would need to change the focus of competition to themselves rather than against an opponent, but then this is true of some forms of budo too.

I guess that's the thing. That's already been my experience of boxing. But as you said, that's not a blanket condition.

[Pete Ticali]

I noticed a slight "left" turn within the last ten or so posts. Whats After Blackbelt now has discussion about "whether" teaching is the "next step in "becoming" a blackbelt.

I'm not sure if that means teaching as a requirement of blackbelt, or teaching after becoming a blackbelt. Excuse my "crude" answer but what is or isn't a requirement is not open for your discussion. It is set by the person in that organization that has the rank/credentials to do so. This kind of "slides" back to my earlier comments. No one said you needed to train for rank. You can become an excellant fighter (or whatever) without rank, but speaking for myself, if you wish my rank around your waist, you need to fulfill the requirements that I have set out.

"The Dojo is not a Democracy, It is a Dictatorship by consent of the governed". (not my quote. Belongs to Peter Urban) The governed merely needs to leave if they decide to not follow the edict of the Dojo.

As an aside, you are correct; I would guess that nearly 80% of Shodans never get to Nidan. I personaly think its due to Western (mis-) thinking, that has people(students) believing that the almighty blackbelt is the quest rather than a evolution from boy to man and secondary school to university status.

I would also point out that way to often there are inexperienced persons teaching who do not have the "depth" to teach "university" students. All blackbelts are not Sensei and it is why a System must put great emphasis on molding their next generation. Evolution will require subtle "changes", but only Sensei with depth and historical understanding will make sure that evolution is progress rather than a time bomb. This previous paragraph might sound like I subscibe to the "teaching is a choice" point of view. I do, as long as you understand that it isa choice that is solidly "linked" to the rank requirements of your "particular" ryu/system.

NO disrespect intended, but this is a conversation that might best be suited for "old guys". Perspective of before and after the NOW often looks different than what would seem apparent while only visiting the now.

I'd also like to encourage everyone about the fact that there is extraodinary possibilities for "what's after Blackbelt". THose who have vision and dedication can open many doors. In 1992 I went to an alternative Highschool in NYC and told the Principal I wanted to teach a conflict resolution course using martial arts as a platform. The guy thought I was either an idiot or a nut job. Little did he know that I was a lifelong martial artist, which means that clearly I alternate at both! LOL

Anyway I explained to him that all conflict resolution being taught is totally dependant on the parties being secure enough to engage willingly in conflict resolution. Self confidence is self security. Feeling secure allows us to have options in the flight or fight equasion. Why do we learn to fight? So we won't need to! Let it be known that I first put on my white belt and attended classes in conflict resolution & non-violent alternatives. I had put together a program that incorporated the physical and mental properties of both.

My point in this line of thought is that there is unlimited potential for those who fully understand the way. The lessons do not stop, regardless of the rank, and like reading a book a second or third time; you can always find the subtle details that deepen your understanding.

with courtesy and respect

Pete Ticali

[Thomas]

I'm not sure if that means teaching as a requirement of blackbelt, or teaching after becoming a blackbelt. Excuse my "crude" answer but what is or isn't a requirement is not open for your discussion. It is set by the person in that organization that has the rank/credentials to do so. This kind of "slides" back to my earlier comments. No one said you needed to train for rank. You can become an excellant fighter (or whatever) without rank, but speaking for myself, if you wish my rank around your waist, you need to fulfill the requirements that I have set out.

"The Dojo is not a Democracy, It is a Dictatorship by consent of the governed". (not my quote. Belongs to Peter Urban) The governed merely needs to leave if they decide to not follow the edict of the Dojo.

Awesome post... I especially like (and agree with) these passages.

[Colin Linz]

Pete,

The reference regarding teaching comes from the opening post of Kawajaman. In it he refers to his teacher pressuring him to teach because he is now a bb, and as such was obligated to start teaching.

Whats after blackbelt?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.

[Pete Ticali]

I was familiar with the post you pointed out, but didn't realize the much later comments were related.

I appreciate your making me aware of it.

I guess the original comment is open to interpretation. The instructor "asked" as if there was a choice, but stated Blackbelts are "expected" which could be interpreted as a "required obligation"..... There is no real way of knowing whether these "requirements" are properly outlined or arbitrary...

As a side note, I'm hoping we are taking about "assisting", since it is a Shodan we are talking about. I realize its probably not, but I thought I'd point out the reference.

Pete Ticali

[Thomas]

I mentioned our rationale behind having people teach as part of the training earlier (see http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7778&highlight=assistant+warmups+red+belt+teaching post#10)... for me as a "senior instructor" at the school, I do a lot of teaching and it pays off by:

(1) Plain and simple reason #1: by teaching I don't have to pay tuition

(2) Learning and practicing how to teach techniques keeps me up to date on the material and really gives me a better depth of understanding of the material. I don't just have to know how I use the techniques but also how they vary by body size, age, strength, etc and teach students to fit them into their own arsenals.

(3) At this level now I have a very large say in what goes on in the curriculum. If there is a complaint about realistic, practical, or whatever issues, I am in the position to make and implement the changes. Instead of just giving lip service about what we do, I can change it to better meet the needs of the students (including myself).

[Kwajman]

In our school, which is fairly large, the master sort of feels you out regarding teaching. I'm not sure why he more or less confronted me rather than asking. I'm not particularly gifted or special, I'm quiet in class and don't participate in anything unless I'm asked to. I was sort of taken aback by his original comments.

[Colin Linz]

Pete,

Your comment on hoping that we are talking of assisting is very valid. Many people don’t differentiate between assisting teaching and teaching. In Japan the more senior student (sempai) is responsible for the continued development of the more junior student (kohai), this is regardless of wether they are yudansha or kyu graded. It is common for students to conduct taiso (warm up) and kihon (basic practice), but this always is under the supervision of the teacher. In Australia I have noticed that in some clubs anyone with a bb gets called sensei. From my experience the only sensei in a branch is the Branch Master, although this does change at Hombu (Headquarters), were we have a number of officially dedicated teachers.

On a side note. In Shorinji Kempo you generally need to be Sandan or above to start a branch. I’m only Shodan despite having trained since 1988, but following an interview with Fujimoto sensei (Director of WSKO) and completing a Branch Masters course I have been given permission to start my own branch. There are some conditions to this, I need to have another Branch Master act as my coach and mentor, and I need to attend their training so they can monitor my technique. I still don’t consider myself a sensei, but other Branch Masters are calling me one, and at our last Taikai I was introduced to the visiting sensei from Japan as one. Personally, I’ll feel more comfortable with the title after a few years and the opportunity to evaluate the type of students I have helped create.

[Pete Ticali]

Some really "enlightening" posts!, And I am personally gratified.
Although I think those "posting" fully understood what they said; please let me explain to "other" readers what I "personally" got from your remarks.

Thomas, Although it is true that no tuition is indeed an incentive, Having had the pleasure of meeting you and reading your posts I know that's not what motivates you. Your system (or instructor) understands both the importance of a well trained teacher and the "personal responsibility" you undertake in the service you perform. It is my experince that "traditional" schools "acknowledge this role by waiving tuition. Commercial schools tend to try to charge additional fees for it!. (I footnote that it is not my intention to make a "blanket" remark in this regard, only that this is my personal "poll" on the issue.)

Colin, Your points really hit home to me. Regarding Sempai, this is a very important "essence" of traditional schools (schools run in a traditional manner, I am not excluding Electics as long as they follow traditional "values" within their training). On a personal note my school has a Dai Sempai (#1 older brother) which remains as there can only be one #1; but I wish to instill the courtesy & etiquitte I believe is paramount to our way, by making the class aware that the highest rank (or most senior) in ANY particular class, ( the one who lines up in the first position) is considered Sempai. They are responsible for the room. Older brothers (& sisters) have a engrained responsibility to the "younger" generation. The younger generation
(rank/experience/ or age in a tie) must always value that seniority, pay attention, and in family business, follow the instructions of Sempai.
For me this follows my theme of teaching a "way" rather than merely a skill.

Here is a quote from my school student handbook. " The Dojo is the Sensei' Home. You come to Sensei' home to learn how he lives. You are a guest in his home and are expected to act as such".

For me at least, I am comfortable telling students (and parents) that their tuition entitles them to a place in the line. All else will be established by the only "real" equity there is. That is Sweat equity. What you put in will be given back.

Regarding your discussion about "SANDAN" for Sensei and your "special" permission to open a branch Dojo; To me this makes "PERFECT" sense. Some may recall ( from Previous posts) that I have personally "broken with tradition" on this matter. Since so many different styles, schools, etc. have in my opinion bastardized the title of Sensei, I no longer use SANDAN as my criteria. Sandan could end up being less time that I require for Shodan, based on some of the commercial establishments I come across.

My requirements for a "Sensei" (teaching certificate) is : a)- Must be a Blackbelt (in a "perfect" world my system requires a min. of 44 months of "active training", passing all tests) b)- Must have a min. of 5 years of active "assistant teaching", holding a regular asst teaching schedule) c)- Must remain active throughout that time in both advance classes and attend special instruction where I discuss the How & Why of what we wish to present. The bottom line is 9-1/2 years for Sensei which I believe to be approximatle correct to most traditional systems.

Colin, Your system understands your seasoned "worth", infact real "old school" would probably "not" have to change "tradition" as I have. Their "members" usually do not "question" their "decisions on such matters. "MY" change probably only served to appease my own indignation on the subject. Truth be told, when two persons come into the room and are addressed as "Sensei", the "unenlightened" and the "enlightened" will hopefully both respect the "title" until they come to conclusions by personal analysis. This is as it should be.

Kwajman, It is possible that your instructor was trying to draw you out, since you say you are usually "quiet" and do not "join in" easily. He may have wanted to A)- find out your aspirations or B)- try to help you set a long term goal. Have you ever considered that he may have also found in you a quiet reflection of "understanding" instead of most student's usual actions of "rote" rather than understanding. He may have realized that you have real potential as a "role model"

Unfortunately, human nature has us "acting out" whatever we visualize ourselves to be. Because of this eventually, others come to see us as exactly what we think we are. Sometimes this masks "whom we might become". One of our martial arts lessons (regarding ALL ranks) is to strive for a beginner's eye. We need to look at everything as if it is new to us. Even those things we do each and every day, can be "different" at any moment, so it is imperitive that we are "open" to those moments rather than passing through them routinely. It is just possible that you Sensei saw that moment within you.

Sorry ALL, for once again being long winded. If it makes you feel any better; I'll share with you that "typing" is not one of my accomplishments. I'm a two index finger "Hunt & Peck" amateur. At least you know that it was as annoying "writing" this, as it probably will be "reading it".

I share your pain!
LOL :D

Pete Ticali

[Kwajman]

Kwajman, It is possible that your instructor was trying to draw you out, since you say you are usually "quiet" and do not "join in" easily. He may have wanted to A)- find out your aspirations or B)- try to help you set a long term goal. Have you ever considered that he may have also found in you a quiet reflection of "understanding" instead of most student's usual actions of "rote" rather than understanding. He may have realized that you have real potential as a "role model"
Pete Ticali

Someone sent me an off board e-mail to that effect. I am very quiet and have poor self esteem when it comes to my skills. Some of our BB's are quite intimidating and can cause students to withdraw a bit. I also do have a great deal of patience with the children especially. And find myself drawn to their problems with other adults who aren't quite as helpful. I appreciate your words greatly by the way.

[rtkd-badger]

Someone sent me an off board e-mail to that effect. I am very quiet and have poor self esteem when it comes to my skills. Some of our BB's are quite intimidating and can cause students to withdraw a bit. I also do have a great deal of patience with the children especially. And find myself drawn to their problems with other adults who aren't quite as helpful. I appreciate your words greatly by the way.
Kwaj,
I think your instructor see's more in you than what you give yourself credit for and this is why he has singled you out. Patience is a virtue as the saying goes. ;)

[Kwajman]

Well thanks Badger. Sometimes my mouth probably gets me in trouble here, but its easy to hide behind a screen. But even though in class I may not look like much, the effort is there.

[Pete Ticali]

Kwajman
Sometimes we are to close to the Forest to see the trees. Unfortunately, the "outsider" can have the gift of perspective that escapes us.

Although your kind comments are appreciated, I feel that forums like these are here exactly for this kind of "sharing". When you are involved in something that might seem "exotic" by many, it is helpful to have others to bounce feelings and ideas off of. Don't tell anyone, but some of my best memories ( as a younger student) come from the discussions, jokes & comraderie in the bar after class. Often , you were "sharing" an experience that no one other than "th group" could understand (or so you thought)

Bottom line is "the only real knowledge is discovery". If "we" have somehow helped you "discover" anything about your self that is a gift for all of us.

Begin to be that which you wish to become.

Pete Ticali

[ClubbellTrainer]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.

Screw his ambitions. He wants you to teach so he can get residual income from your efforts.

Focus on WHY you want to train and the hell with rank and "assumed responsibilities." If every BB actually opened a school, do you know HOW MANY damn MA schools there would be??? Ridiculous.

You would be a lousy teacher if your heart wasn't truly in it. Pursue your own agenda and leave him to stew in his.

[moo_do_jo_kyo]

Hey Kwajman,

It's actually a dream of mine to teach, and while I won't agree that you should be forced in to teaching, or that it's simply your responsibility to do so, here's a couple of the pros:

- You'll be a vehicle in promulgating your art. Do you believe that what you do is of extreme benefit to your community, or humanity? That's how I feel about what I do, and why I want to spread it.

- There's nothing more fulfilling than to get a return visit from a student of yours who may have left 10 years ago, saying you were their reason for success. If you dedicate yourself to your art and education, you'll be in that position one day.

- It'll make you a better practioner. Those who want to teach ask the best questions. They pay the most attention to detail. Watch your instructor when he teaches class, and the next time he/she corrects a mistake of another student, see what else looks different about him/her. When you can visualize yourself performing with all those details, you'll be even close to doing so.

Hope this helps.

[rtkd-badger]

Hey Kwajman,

It's actually a dream of mine to teach, and while I won't agree that you should be forced in to teaching, or that it's simply your responsibility to do so, here's a couple of the pros:

- You'll be a vehicle in promulgating your art. Do you believe that what you do is of extreme benefit to your community, or humanity? That's how I feel about what I do, and why I want to spread it.

- There's nothing more fulfilling than to get a return visit from a student of yours who may have left 10 years ago, saying you were their reason for success. If you dedicate yourself to your art and education, you'll be in that position one day.

- It'll make you a better practioner. Those who want to teach ask the best questions. They pay the most attention to detail. Watch your instructor when he teaches class, and the next time he/she corrects a mistake of another student, see what else looks different about him/her. When you can visualize yourself performing with all those details, you'll be even close to doing so.

Hope this helps.
That helped me, and I want to teach.
Good post

[Colin Linz]

Yes there are many benefits to teaching, but there are also things that you need to be aware of. It is hard work and you have to commit yourself to it. It takes a lot of work and persistence to establish a regular core of students. You will have many people go through that you will invest a lot of time and effort in teaching them, only for them to leave. You have to accept that this will happen and still put the effort and time in. You will need to be at training all the time until you can establish a core group, and some senior students. Even then you still need to be there often. You need to accept that you have an obligation to them to provide a safe training environment. You need to accept that there could be some problems that could impact on you or your family stemming from issues with the school. I don’t mean to talk anyone out of teaching, just to offer some other aspects that need to be thought about as well.

[rtkd-badger]

Yes there are many benefits to teaching, but there are also things that you need to be aware of. It is hard work and you have to commit yourself to it. It takes a lot of work and persistence to establish a regular core of students. You will have many people go through that you will invest a lot of time and effort in teaching them, only for them to leave. You have to accept that this will happen and still put the effort and time in. You will need to be at training all the time until you can establish a core group, and some senior students. Even then you still need to be there often. You need to accept that you have an obligation to them to provide a safe training environment. You need to accept that there could be some problems that could impact on you or your family stemming from issues with the school. I don’t mean to talk anyone out of teaching, just to offer some other aspects that need to be thought about as well.
Speaking of things we need to be aware of in Australia: Are you aussie's aware that the Commision for Children and Young People and Child Gaurdian require all volunteers and paid employee's who work with children or young people to apply for a blue card???? This is a simple police check to ensure that you have a clean record when it comes to dealing with children and is free for volunteers. If peole do not comply with thier obligations under the Act, penalties apply, including fine and/or imprisionment.
You can apply for a Blue Card here (http://www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/index_flash.html)

[Colin Linz]

Speaking of things we need to be aware of in Australia: Are you aussie's aware that the Commision for Children and Young People and Child Gaurdian require all volunteers and paid employee's who work with children or young people to apply for a blue card???? This is a simple police check to ensure that you have a clean record when it comes to dealing with children and is free for volunteers. If peole do not comply with thier obligations under the Act, penalties apply, including fine and/or imprisionment.
You can apply for a Blue Card here (http://www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/index_flash.html)
Yes that’s right. You also need to hold at least a level 1 coaching qualification under the NCAS (National Coaching Accreditation Scheme) if you are going to teach in publicly owned buildings, like Government Schools, Council Halls and PCYC’s.

[rtkd-badger]

Yes that’s right. You also need to hold at least a level 1 coaching qualification under the NCAS (National Coaching Accreditation Scheme) if you are going to teach in publicly owned buildings, like Government Schools, Council Halls and PCYC’s.
Thats something I did not know. How do you go about getting accredited???

[Colin Linz]

This link will explain the different ways to gain accreditation, just go to the Instructor Accreditation link in the site menu. http://www.maia.com.au/home.htm

[rtkd-badger]

Thanks Colin, I had a look at the site and from what I can gather you dont have to be an accredited instructor under the MAIA unless the local PCYC, Principle of the school hall, local council, ect, require you to be, although it seems the MAIA are pushing for it.
direct negotiation with private sector interests that rent/hire facilities in which martial arts are taught to adopt an "Accredited Instructor Only" policy

[Colin Linz]

They have agreements with a number of states, where some states have made this their policy. How legaly enforcable it is I'm not sure. They have exagerated things in the past in newsletters.

[Florida Warlock]

If you like teaching and find you re good at it, then you should pass on the knowledge you have.

Some people just aren't good at teaching others.

Some people don't like teaching, possibly because they're too impatient. If this is the case, they probably aren't a good teacher because of this.

It's up to you and your instructor has no right to judge you by whether or not you choose to become a teacher.

Your instructor expect you to become a teacher, but it is not really expected of you. Your parents may expect you to become a teacher, as may your friends, but it is ultimately your decision and no one has any right to like you any more or any less because you either decided to teach or to not teach.

I'd like to talk with a lot of these instructors that people talk about on these forums. There are too many... for lack of the right to use a more profane term... jerks out there. I'm not talking about your teacher specifically, and he may be a great teacher, but he has no right to try to force you to do something you don't want to (unless you're in class... you have to listen to him then).

[bassai]

Ive slowly been helping out more sincr my shodan and although not forced into this it was at my senseis suggestion.
what id like to say is although i was very nervous at first teaching is something i now enjoy very much to the point that we're now discussing my opening my own club.
I feel i've learn't more through teaching than if i'd just turned up and trained also i feel i should try harder when i do train because i feel if kyu grades look up and see me taking it easy then they may feel it's ok to do the same.
on a final note i covered a class the other day because sensei was away and after the class one of the children actualy came up and thanked me for the lesson you would not beleive how good this made me feel,not in a bigheaded way but the you could see the enjoyment on the kids face as he spoke and thats whats important to me putting across my enjoyment to them. :D

[Pete Ticali]

Its a really great feeling when you actually see the lightbulb flash on!
Knowing you helped someone "Get it"! is probably even better that when you "finally" got it yourself!

Pete Ticali

[jonmonk]

bassai, you'll start getting Christmas cards too. The best one though is when their parents tell you that the bullying has stopped and their school teachers have commented on their new found confidence... You did that!!

[slamdunc]

In the first organization I trained with, one of the requirements for BB was to assist with classes for one year, or open your own class and run it for six months. In either case, once you achieved brown belt level, you either had to teach beginners, or find a different club.
The positive aspect is that all training was under an 'umbrella' school and there was adequate supervision through belt pre-tests and senior instructors making visitation on open classes.
I had not yet reached brown belt, and for geographic reasons, I moved to a class taught by two senior brown belts. I was immediately put in an assistant instructor status and expected to help with classes.
I gained valuable experience, and only taught students who were levels below me. I did not look at this as free labor, I was learning how to teach, and in this status, I was not required to pay for my own classes. Some of the other advanced students were unable or unwilling to share their knowledge, and quit. I stuck with it, and have ran schools of my own; bottom line, it was a valuable experience.

[creamcheese]

I am a gold sash in Kung Fu (which is equivalent to a Black Belt or maybe black belt dan 1). I really don't know. I started Kung Fu 8 years ago.
Our Kung Fu system never grades before one year of training and sometimes much longer training has been completed. Each grade will need that same time of training according to each individual student. However, I personally remember after passing each level, I said to myself and my Sifu,
"NOW I AM JUST BEGINNING TO LEARN". When I earned my gold sash, I knew that I had completed the fundamentals only and said "NOW I AM REALLY STARTING TO LEARN". and when (at my request) I got permission to teach from my Sifu and the head of our Kung Fu Federation, he said to me, THE BEST WAY TO LEARN KUNG FU IS TO TEACH and I can tell you that that was the time I started to really learn. All that said and done, teaching is not for everyone, in fact, it is for the minority. It needs much patience, understanding and a firm belief and love of your Martial Art. Most of all that you really want to give over the system to benefit others and the wish that your students will become better at the art than yourself.

[Kyouretsu]

will a lower belt respect me less because I've given wrong information.

I don't think it would cause anyone to have less respect... just because you have a black belt... doesn't mean that you know everything. You are sharing your skills and knowledge... and for that the students should be grateful!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

In the club that I train in... there are three black belts... two that are first dans... and the founder of our club who is a fourth dan. There is also a second dan that runs a sister club who comes to train with us a few times a year.
I love learning from the different people. Each one has a set of skills that are their strengths... each one does their techniques in their own specific style. Our art (Shindo Ryu Ju Jitsu) is completely self defense oriented. Our style does not have one single way to do any of the moves... each move and technique has slight variations. Learning from all the different black belts allows me to see that I am able to adapt these skills to the abilities that I have!
Although I must admit... that I don't only learn from the black belts. Everyone in our club... from white to black is encouraged to help each other. I have learned things from students who have just started but have a previous knowledge of another martial art and I have learned from students who are at the same belt level I am at (currently orange, until I test Dec10)

[Qdmasta]

To Kwajman, your situation reminds me of one concerning my own instructor. He started training under a 6th dan at the time, Grandmaster Lee, who came over to the U.S. from Korea back in 1975. He was one of his first students and stayed with him until he reached 2nd dan, at which point he wanted to try his hand full contact kickboxing. This was during a time where people identified really heavily with a style. If you were Taekwon-do, you were Taekwon-do. If you were Kenpo, you were Kenpo. So you may be able to understand why Master Lee didn't support this idea at all. He told him that if he went into to kickboxing, that he was not to come back to his school. My instructor did it anyway and the two lost contact for a while. But, now that all of that's over with, the two have a good relationship, and I'd like to think that my instructor has become more of a well-rounded teacher because of his experiences with kickboxing.

In the end though, I don't think Master Lee was so much against the idea of my instructor going into kickboxing as he was against the idea of losing his, in his own words, "best" student for some time to concentrate on kickboxing. That may be the case with you, Kwajman. Maybe he's afraid of losing you if you're not teaching for some reason. Let me know if I'm way off or if this has been addressed before as I've only read a couple of posts.

[Giver]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.
Personally, my dojo believes that when you're a black belt you should teach and help other people, but that's just my dojo.

I believe that if you're not comfortable, you shouldn't teach yet. Your goals and desires are personal, and until you fulfill those you probably won't be very passionate about teaching. Just go with your gut.

[Kwajman]

I"m actually not in a school anymore because of where I live. But when I was at my old school I didn't mind working with the younger kids. They seemed to appreciate it more than the adults. Most of the adults didn't seem to want to learn from anyone except the two main instructors, which I was fine with. After all your paying the owner of the school to learn from him. Not someone who just got their black belt.

[Shrukin89]

My instructor isn't very happy with me. He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt (I'm confident!). However the reasons I'm taking martial arts are mostly personal, self-fulfillment, discipline, fitness, etc...things along those lines. He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level. Is that true? Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants? I'm interested in both bb's and colored belts opinions please.

"He asked me how often I would like to teach, or if I would be interested in starting a new school after I receive my black belt, He told me that I was selfish and that it is expected that bb's will teach after they reach that level."

That is just arrogant and distasteful.


"Should I go against my desire to accomplish my goals and do what my instructor wants?"

No you do what you want to do, it's your life of how you want to progress through it. Not your instructor, but I do recommend that your intstructor should encourage you to do what you want after blackbelt.

Besides at blackbelt isn't the end of the line in fact it's the beginning.