Achilles Tendon.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Folks,

Well last nights class was a bit of a disaster for me. The intention was to get a general warm up going, and all was going well until we got to Calf Muscles. We do some footwork drills, bouncing on the toes, knees to the chest etc. I like to jump a little higher than everyone else, setting an example and all that.

BANG !

Hmmm, that didn't feel to good, I better pretend nothing has happened.

I had lost control of my foot, and had difficulty walking. Everybody thought the noise had been my colossal frame breaking a floor board or something.

The emergency doctor diagnosed a snapped Achilles Tendon.
As I write, I have my leg in Plaster to the knee. I am absolutely **itting myself. My job depends on me being able to drive, so therefore my family and property investment are potentially affected. Obviously the MA is a big concern also, though not as much as losing my job, home and potentially my family.

I am going back into hospital tomorrow to see an Orthopaedic specialist, who will tell me if he can operate or not. As I write, I am a little emotional about this as you can imagine.

I would appreciate any advice anyone may have on this.

Can I expect a full recovery, and if so over what period?

Will it never be the same again?

Is there anything I can do to aid recovery?

Andy

:(

[ladyhawk]

Ouch, Sorry to hear it Andy!
A guy I knew tore his Achilles Tendon, not sure
if that is the same as snapped. His foot was in
a cast for two months and they had him on anti-inflammatory drugs. It took a long time before he could comfortable bring his heel off the floor and come up on his tip toes.
Hope everything works out for you.

[Andy Murray]

Yikes, I can't take Anti-Inflammatory drugs because I'm asthmatic.
Unless they have invented some new ones that are ok.

Thanks anyway LadyHawk :)

Anybody know?

[Saz]

Sorry to hear about this mate, I hope you get better soon :( When I used to play football, our keeper did her achilles tendon in. It was in a cast for 2 months, which is the standard amount of time I think. Eventually she was playing again though. I would think keeping the leg at rest a lot would help recovery somewhat... although its tempting to try and push it at times to try and get it better quicker.

I think maybe FluffyDoc's the one to ask about this

[waya]

Andy,
I'm not really familiar with injuries to that area because I've never been there, but I do know that it happens to alot of athletes. I wish you the best of luck with recovery and work.
I did lookup some info on the injury though. Might help if you read them.

http://www.teamoregon.com/forum/messages/2896.html

This one is to hopefully give you some hope about it
http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/Nov98/wallace_nov220.htm


Rob

[YODA]

Damn!

Hope you make a full recovery mate!

One thing you can be VERY sure of is full support from everyone here.

[Cooler]

Yoda said:

'One thing you can be VERY sure of is full support from everyone here.'

You can be sure of that.

Cooler

[Freeform]

Sorry to hear about that Andy. Hope you make a quick and full recovery.

Colin

[Andy Murray]

A quick update.

It's a complete rupture. Nothing connecting one end of the Tendon to the other,

In eight hours or so, I'm going under the knife.

I'll be sitting with my leg up and out for two months minimum, three months more likely.

Once they have cut the back of the ankle open, they will decide what to do. In some cases they apparently don't operate (I'm not sure why), though more usually they try to stitch the ends of Tendon together again.

Despite having expressed my interests in having it back good as new, the Surgeon was non- commital as to my potential recovery. I just have to swallow this as it comes.

I won't be around for a few days, and believe me when I say i'll be thinking about you all. I'd just like to say thanks for all the supportive comments, and the searches you guys did on web sites looking for information for me.

When I get back home, I'll be looking for suggestions on exercises and MA techniques I can practice whilst seated.

One thing I do want to share before I sign off though is;

If you start getting cramps in the same muscle group repeatedly, for goodness sake get it checked out. It's a warning sign for consequences you may not like.

Regards to all.

Andy

[ladyhawk]

I'm sending you positive thoughts.

[Melanie]

Oh dear :( I can vouch for the loud bang too...

My thoughts are with you Andy. I know you well enough by now to say that this will not push you back...you're strong, you have your friends, familly and everyone on this forum supporting you through this.

[YODA]

Best of luck with the Op Andy.

If there's anything I can do at all at any time just yell. If you get low at any stage & just want a sarcastic giggle down the phone, day or night, you have my number!

[Greyghost]

Andy Sifu,

I hope that by the time you have read this you are out of hospital and sitting with your foot up with your little girl on your knee.

I know that you will have a quick and full recovery.....nothing seems to slow you down for long.

On the positive side ...it does mean you get to spend some more time with all your girls ( even the one with the tail).

My thoughts are with you.

Fraser.
:)

[YODA]

Any news?

Anyone heard from Andy?

[Melanie]

He's still in hospital - should be back on Monday but will get an update tomorrow hopefully.

[CyCloNe]

Sorry to hear about the injury m8 :(

Knowing the little bit about you that I do Im sure this wont beat you, hell, Im not even sure having a full body cast on would beat you.

Hang in there m8.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Guys,

Well apparently the operation took four hours longer than it should have because of my MA training.
Everytime the guy pulled a Scalpel, I kicked it out of his hand and back-flipped round the room yelling war-crys.

Seriously though guys n gals, many thanks for the support. When you're scared and lonely there's nothing nicer than knowing that a bunch of great folks know what you are going through, and wish you luck.

I now have to wait for my first 'cast change' which is two weeks away. The leg has been cast in a non weight bearing toes down position. The physios have basically said that after two or three months in the cast, I will have virtually no calf muscle left. I'm thinking about shaving the leg and going into modelling stockings for a living.

Oh Yeah, what's happened to the NHS? No-one even offered me a bed bath ;)

Andy

[Greyghost]

i dont thaink there is anyone in the NHS with a strong enough stomach to give you a bedbath mate!!!..


Though i have heard there is a russian pyschiatric nurse called olga over on an exchange programn...i'll have a word with my doctor friends and see what i can do.

Glad to see your mind is still intact.


regards

fraser

:D

[ladyhawk]

Hey Andy,
Glad the surgery went well and your sense of humor is still in tact. Your little girl will be able to give you a run for your money now.

[YODA]

Glad it went well Andy :D

[Freeform]

Good to here things went well Andy, hope your back to fighting form soon, you'd better if you want a slot at the HWU crosstraining day mate ;)

Just remember that just cause your legs out of it doesn't mean you can't work on your upper body!

Oh, I just realised the really bad news... Frasers looking after your class now!

Get well soon.

Col

[Andy Murray]

Thanks Freeform,

Got some crutch exercises together.

Back against a wall, take my weight on my hands on crutches, and double leg raises.

Body at 45 degrees, as much weight on arms as possible, with legs crossed descend chest between crutches, hold for a count of three and raise to repeat.

Crutches placed behind, and tricep dips to failure.

Seated leg raises and knee extensions.

Been a long time since I could do a single leg squat, but I reckon I'll be there in a couple of weeks.

Any other suggestions welcome.

[Jim]

Was worried about the crutch exercises... Thought I'd entered the wrong chatroom again... ha ha, ummm

Suggest, Jim shut up now...

[Melanie]

Hmm...I shall be watching you Jim! ;)

[Silver_no2]

Originally posted by Melanie
Hmm...I shall be watching you Jim! ;)

We've heard that about you Mel :D

[YODA]

We'll be watching you watching Jim Mel :D

[Melanie]

:(.....I'm the Moderator here!....stop picking on me *sniff*


;)

[morphus]

i' just got on to this thread, sorry agout the leg man, my dad tore his tendon in his footballing days, it was pretty bad, sounds like you got a whole lorra trouble; but i'm sure the NHS will see you through, with time and a Sh*t load of physio, you'll be back training ,just be patient, then when its time - work hard.

I have a question Andy - did you not stretch before performing 'the jumping on you toes routine'?

[Andy Murray]

Hi Morphus,
yeah, a full body warmup and stretch before the class came in mate.
This was kind of waiting to happen I think.
I do a lot of driving, and I reckon traffic jams & constant use of a heavy clutch have weakened the tendon. Admittedly the warmup was starting to get more Plyometric when it went though.

Andy

[Thomas Vince]

Andy there is something called "Tieh Ta Wan" it comes in a little round ball sealed in plastic. It is known as internal hit medicine. You would have to order this as it is a tea but it is taken in it's raw form like a pill, halk a pill in the morning one at night. Find a local ju-jitsu guy if you guy that does internal healing and he can get it to you. Try this wepage to order it.
http://www.gfcherbs.com/formulas/tieh_ta.htm

[Andy Murray]

Thanks Thomas,
that sounds perfect actually. I'll investigate, and come back to you on it. At the moment the only thing I'm taking is Glucosamine ( made out of Shark's toenails or something equally appetising), as reccomended by K Girl and Yoda.

Thanks

Andy

[Andy Murray]

Hi Folks.

Got my leg cast off today, and after nearly seven weeks it's great to see your leg again

Left Calf 38.5cm Right Calf 41cm

Left Thigh 58cm Right Thigh 62cm

Got a bit of work to do as you can see.

Crutches are cast aside, and I have a support bandage on the ankle/calf.

The surgeon seemed to be happy with the strength of the repaired tendon, but I have to take things gradually. Booked in for my first physio session next week, so we'll see how it goes.

I mentioned to the surgeon that I had been taking Glucosamine as a supplement, but he kind of 'poo-pooed' it, as being for arthritis.

Thanks

Andy

[khafra]

You're already doing better than the only other person I know who did a complete rupture. I didn't want to mention it earlier, but my piano teacher did that when I was a kid, and he was wearing crutches for a year. You obviously have superior mutant healing abilities :D

Good luck

[Andy Murray]

OK, thanks for the support and sympathy.

Just in case this helps anyone out there in the future, I feel I ought to update the information on my convalescence.

First of all, I now realise the injury was entirely my own fault.

I was bouncing on the spot, but instead of bending my knees and using my quads to spring up again, I was using my Achilles Tendons as springs. I was overweight at the time, and suffered the consequences.

I was told I would have as much recovery as I was ever going to get in 9 months from the injury, that being about now.

I've mostly avoided anything I think would aggravate recovery, and am actively planning my training regimen at the moment.

I've shifted focus onto FMA and WC, which are less reliant on mobility.

I've been walking every night, doing calf raises and long slow stretches. Initially I could only go onto the toes of the bad leg, with the aid of the good, but now, I can do calf raises on the bad leg by itself.

Don't ever snap your Achilles Tendon folks please. I'll be affected by this this for the rest of my life.

If anyone ever finds this thread through a search engine or whatever, and want's advice on this, then please feel free to contact me.

[Bon]

Ok, so I am late reading this thread. How's your training now since the recovery Andy?

Reading this has made me paranoid about snapping mine and even more paranoid about not tapping to an achilles lock quickly enough, which is what I thought this thread was at first originally.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Bon
Ok, so I am late reading this thread. How's your training now since the recovery Andy?


Just getting started again Bon, but thanks for asking.

I'm no spring chicken agewise, but I've been keeping my interest in the 'Arts' alive with things that don't demand on the Tendon.

It's a delicate area for me, and anyone who sweeps it or locks it get's an irrational response.

Don't ever get punched by someone who has been getting about on Crutches for three months.

Where my midriff has expanded, and my leg's have wasted, my upper body strength is scary.

I'm booked into the gym next week, and looking at a program for the next 6 months or so. I'm looking at getting confidence back in the leg so I can start running again, as well as losing weight, and increasing upper body strength.

[Bon]

Good luck with it all, dude.
I wish you all the best with your recovery & training.

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. :)

[Paul Marfell]

I ruptured my tendon over 12 months ago during a karate training session. I now host a forum at www.marfell.me.uk/forum/ that several other sufferers have found usefull.

At 51 (birthday today :) ) I am not intending to go back to karate and unfortunately my son does not seem interested.

Take care. You have my best wishes.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Paul,
I spotted you reading this thread, and joined your forum while you were posting here. ;)

You ever think about trying a different Martial Art?

I changed tack onto Wing Chun and Eskrima, neither of which are causing me any stress on the tendon.

Thanks ever so much for posting.
I get the feeling some of the other 'crocked' members here are going to find it very useful and helpful

[Melanie]

Hiya Paul,

I have to admit I also had a quick look at your site and am unsurprised Andy joined - as I was there when he damaged his Anchilles Tendon.

Pleased to have you here and Happy Birthday! :)

[Jeff Burger]

Our program director and walking billboard Sioux aka Fightgrrl snapped her's back in June.
She had surgery and we applied lots of TCM everyday (Tuina and herbal rubs).

She got the go ahead yesterday to do everything...including jumping.

Docs said it was the fastest full recovery they have seen.

I think a big problem with this type of injury is mentally being able to do things again.

Jeff

[Andy Murray]

Never a truer word spoken.

Untill you actually snap one though, you can't tell others where their limits are, only help them explore.

[Mike Flanagan]

Message for Paul Marfell

Hi Paul

How many times do we hear of people damaging themselves in martial art classes and being unable to continue? Way, way too many. The sad thing with regard to karate, is that I firmly believe that old style karate was meant to be an holistic discipline, enabling practitioners to live long and healthy lives.

Modern karate has, in my opinion, gone wrong somewhere. Far too many people get damaged and are consigned to the karate scrapheap. Partly this is due to unwise exercise regimes and unforgiving instructors but I believe one of the major reasons is the emphasis in modern karate on high kicks and deep stances. Prior to the 20th century such things did not exist in karate.

I note that you're in Bradford. I teach Okinawan Karate in Leeds. We don't use the above-mentioned damaging practices and I make sure that students work to their own limits and practice in a manner which is safe and appropriate. Several of my students have knee or wrist problems that we are able happily accommodate. If you'd like to come and see what we do then please feel free to do so. Or if you'd like to learn more about it you can email me (mikeflanagan2003@fsmail.net) phone (07939 506340 / 0113 3685650) or just simply visit our website (www.shinseido.org)

Mike

[Greg-VT]

It's good to see it's going well Andy.


As for me, I can't firgure out how one can snap their Achilles. I'm starting to get a bit paraniod....

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
[B I can't figure out how one can snap their Achilles. I'm starting to get a bit paranoid.... [/B]

I can tell you how, but I don't reccomend it mate. :D

[SOLID]

will doing weighted calve raises mess my ic ten up?

[Andy Murray]

What do you mean Matt?

Your ic ten up???

[SOLID]

Achilles tendon rather.

[KickChick]

I did read in some med journal that now you don't always need Achilles tendon surgery. Although surgery is the method typically used for AT tears, the non-surgical method may be as effective, with fewer risks. Achilles tendon tears may heal as effectively with a supportive splint and exercises as with surgery.

The basic scientific rationale for the splint with exercises is that, if you have a healing tendon and apply motion and resistance, the tendon heals much more completely. The splint protects the tendon, but it allows for motion and load-bearing exercises.

You can get the same result without having to be subjected to the risk of surgery. It looks like motion and stress are important to recovery.

Although surgical repair is the conventional method for treating Achilles tendon tears, some patients may have health risks that make surgery unwise, such as diabetics and smokers. Other patients may be reluctant to undergo surgery.

so if anyone finds themselves with a similar incident as Andy's ....AT rupture .... look into this non-surgical alternative.

Achilles Tendon stretch

1. Stand with one leg in front of you, slightly bent, and the other leg extended back.
2. Lower your hips downward as you slightly bend the knee of the extended leg.
3. Keep both heels flat on the floor and toes straight ahead.
4. Hold the stretch for 10 seconds, and then stretch the other leg.
5. Repeat at least two more times.
** Note: This Achilles tendon stretch requires only a slight feeling of tension at the back of your ankle.

*** Be sure that you do not bounce, and that you stretch gently and completely.

After you finish exercising and stretching, whether or not you feel sensitivity in the region, you should ice and elevate your Achilles tendon. This will help in reducing inflammation in the region, and, hopefully, will prevent any further complications

[Chris J.]

Hello,
I certainly hope that your job understands all of this. Really at this point you need to be concerned with the body, not the job; after all, you only ever get just the one body.
As far as full recovery, really there is not any such thing where tendon damage is concerned, but at the same time you should be able to eventually train past what you could do before. But, the ballistic exercises are very bad if the tendons are not very strong.
You might eventually try a soft art, so called, like Tai Chi. As strange as it sounds, these arts are VERY DIFFICULT and greatly strengthen sinew and bone. The rocking anf smooth tranition of stance applies gradual strain on tendons and strengthens them.
The asthma is unfortunate but all is not lost. Pain may be blocked in many ways, and whichever way will reduce the inflammatory response. Ingesting chemicals is only one very crude method of blocking pain and the related inflammation. If you investigate accupuncture you might be able to self apply accupressure to some of the same areas and reduce your pain and swelling without using any drugs. I do this myself for minor aches and pains, and even some injuries at times.
Any time you block pain you must be careful not to over exert the area. The missing pain was trying to tell you to TAKE IT EASY. You can not forget that, no matter what you do to relieve the pain.

-Chris J.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by KickChick
I did read in some med journal that now you don't always need Achilles tendon surgery. Although surgery is the method typically used for AT tears, the non-surgical method may be as effective, with fewer risks. Achilles tendon tears may heal as effectively with a supportive splint and exercises as with surgery.



Not sure where you are going with this KC.

You talking about a partial tear?

In the case of a complete rupture like mine, one end of the tendon shoots up the leg and has to be retreived for the operation. Splinting won't do zip, as there's nothing to heal.

Procedure is that it's always preferable to operate, if the person is young enough to heal well.

In older folks, it's more likely the rupture will reappear. :confused:


Thanks Chris. I've been considering CMA as possibly beneficial. :D

[Paul Marfell]

I did not have surgery the first time round. Maybe I did not exercise the tendon enough while it was healing and so it did not knit together but what is more likely is that muscle spasms and exercise whilst still in the cast had not allowed it to knit properly. After the cast was taken off I was given exercises to strengthen the calf muscles. With the cycling and karate that I had been doing before it did not take long for me to build up my calf strength. My muscle was then strong enough to put too much load on the tendon and so it popped. Surgery is a given with a re-rupture.

Another exercise is
Walt Reynold's Special Achilles Strengthener? (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0031.htm)
But KickChick, unless you have ruptured your tendon you have no idea how nervous simple exercises like these can make you.

[zun]

Andy, hope things are progressing well.

I've had problems with my achilles tendon since my college years. I've found the only way to strengthen wihtout damage it is by gentle swimming.

[Reiki]

Some pretty good advice in here about treatment for this painful condition.

I'd just like to add what I did for my archilles tendons which used to get sore and tight the morning after a hard training session. They had got to a chronic condition where I limped about for a couple of hours every morning and couldn't put my heel to the floor.

I would do this before and after training and as often as I felt I needed to.

I placed my leg in a comfy position with the toes slightly lower than the heels and massaged along the length of the tendons starting just behind the heel. Remember to work *along* the tendons not across!

What you are aiming for is to have the tendon partly relaxed and using your thumb gently massage and press inwards toward the centre of the leg behind the heel to lightly stretch the tendon. If it is very painful please be very gentle with it!

You may find it is quite relaxing and it helps to cut down the pain, at the same time helps to stretch and condition the tendon without putting too much stress on it. Remember you need it to be flexible in order that you can work it!

I also treated it every day with Reiki and over a couple of months it settled down and I no longer have any pain with my tendons at all.

[AgentX]

Andy I didin't know about this issue...
But you are strong and you will survive my friend.
Just be carefull with your foot.
:)
Maybe you should do some physicotherapy(don't know if you already do). ;)

[Aravi]

Heh, just reading this thread is making my achilles tendon feel sore :P

On a more serious note, I do seem to be prone to foot cramps - although they usually appear to be induced by cold. But enough of my issues.

In the brief time I have spent on this forum, I have come to have much respect for you. Hope you heal well, and hope that you either get to return to Lau Gar or find new enjoyment in Wing Chun.

Best of luck :)