Workout for a 15 year old martial arts legend wannabee!

[taekwonguy]

Hi I am 15 years old, I am a black belt in ITF TKD and Judo, but I need the body to compliment my skill!

I am 5 ft 10 inches and weigh 9 stone 3 pounds. Not much. I am a cross between an ectomorph and a mesomorph (body type). I am very serious about my martial arts and want to be the best I can be.

I want a body like Bruce Lee, not bulky but defined rock hard muscles. Bruce was only 5 ft 7 inches and weighed 7 stone 7 pounds!!!! and he was very, very, very strong and fast. He also had a very low body fat percentage.

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionshkaction/mrlee.jpg

Is the reason he didnt look like Arnold Schwarzenegger because his body type is different and because he was chinese? I am a white english kid am curious.

http://www.kulturistika.com/gallery/1142353481_arnold.jpg


I want to lower my body fat and pack on rock hard muscle!

Here is a my workout I began a month ago:

Monday:

Dynamic Stretches

Static Active Stretches

Total Body Workout:

Abs:

60 crunches

20 knee raises

20 oblique v raises each side

20 back extensions

60 seconds bridge, 5 seconds rest then repeat

Core exercises:

60 squats, 2 5kg dumbells

20 press-ups

20 deltoid raises

12 lat pull downs,

12 Tricep kickbacks, 2 5kg dumbells

45 seconds back against wall in sitting position

20 bicep curls 2 5kg dumbell weights

24 leg curls holding 5kg dumbell between feet

and then i do isometric stretches and relaxed stretches

Tuesday

dynamic stretches

static active stretches

30 minute brisk walk

relaxed stretches

Wednesday:

Same as Monday

Thursday

same as tuesday

Friday:

Same as monday but repeat ab exercises twice

Saturday

dynamic stretches

static active stretches

ab exercises

relaxed stretching

Sunday:

Day off!


any suggestions to change? thanks
btw I do eat healthily

[jwt]

Thank you for providing your height and weight etc.

I think before you continue with this sort of regime you need to consider how much you may yet have to grow. You are likely to be a bit taller than both your parents with good nutrition and if you are still quite short of this mark I would advise against heavy weights while your bones are still growing. Too heavy a weight during major growth spurts can bend your bones.

Another factor you need to consider is your image. Yes, it would be good to look as toned as Bruce Lee but there are dangers inherent in this. Many young people have similarly toned physiques because they are growing fast and being active and thus are often not consuming enough calories and nutrients to keep up. Training hard while growing and not eating enough calories can cause problems that you may not feel but will damage your body and limit your growth (and putting this as politely as possible this could affect any and every organ in your body and some you might not want to have a slowed growth spurt on).

There are quite a few threads that look at diet and nutrition and weighlifting on this forum, so check them out. But be careful. Everyone likes to look good and be fit, but don't push too hard too soon. Good luck with it.

[taekwonguy]

btw my dad is six foot 1, my mum 5 foot 7. both grandads 5ft 8 and grandmothers 5ft 7.

But all my uncles all over 6ft so I've got about 3 inches in me left!
Sorry but i do not understand what u sed about Bruce Lee image being bad?

btw surely high reps of 2 5kg dumbells is not too heavy for my age?

[Skrom]

I think before you continue with this sort of regime you need to consider how much you may yet have to grow. You are likely to be a bit taller than both your parents with good nutrition and if you are still quite short of this mark I would advise against heavy weights while your bones are still growing. Too heavy a weight during major growth spurts can bend your bones.

not true.

taekwonguy. it's cool if you want to look like bruce lee right now. that'll probably change as you get older. what you need to do is ditch the routine you've got right now and go find a gym. no excuses, you need a gym. learn how to squat, deadlift, and bench press. if you can't do at least that much, then you won't get anywhere near your fitness goals.

[taekwonguy]

why wouldn't I?

[jwt]

not true.

taekwonguy. it's cool if you want to look like bruce lee right now. that'll probably change as you get older. what you need to do is ditch the routine you've got right now and go find a gym. no excuses, you need a gym. learn how to squat, deadlift, and bench press. if you can't do at least that much, then you won't get anywhere near your fitness goals.

I agree with Skrom that you should seek advice from a gym when you do a weight based fitness regime, but as a former Fitness Instructor with the British (Drug Free) Powerlifting Association I stand by my comments that heavy weight training too early can damage the bone shape. There are too many people who work in gyms who are ignorant about teenage physiology and I've seen a number of people damage themselves by piling on too much muscle too young and then wonder why their posture is rubbish and they can't fully extend their arms and legs. Maybe you did it Skrom and it didn't damage you (that you are aware of) but you are not taekwondoguy.

My advice is to talk to your PE teachers at school and your doctor and follow their advice before you do any heavy weights, no matter what they say at the gym (remember that most gym and fitness instructors want you to use their facilities because you pay for them). There is nothing wrong with wanting to look like Bruce Lee, so long as you aren't starving yourself while you do it. The dumb-bell weights you are using sound fine.

[Reakt]

You need Weight to build muscle. I'm not saying its the only thing to do with Weightlifting (theres other factors such as time under tension, form, speed etc), but the weight you're lifting is a very important factor. (I dont know how many times I've said this over the past week) You need to enduce enough Trauma to your Muscles for the muscle fibers to adapt and grow, the only way you'll do this is by using heavy Weights to really stress your Muscles and to use good form, I'd also suggest slow movements, some people work with high frequency but I have not seen much evidence yet to compare both types.

So yeah, 5kg is going to do absolutely crap all apart from train endurance, which you may still need to do if you compete or you simply want more endurance. You can increase your weight and do fewer reps and sets but it doesn't work the other way around when you use a light weight but just do ton's of reps and sets.

As for sets, I personally do 3 sets of 3-4 reps of the heaviest weight possible and that works for me, most people go with 3 sets of 6-8 or 8-10 sets of 3, theres lots of variations and you have to find what works for you.

Skrom is also pretty much correct, you need a Gym with the right equipment to do core exercises like Squats, Deadlifts, Bench presses, Rows, Dips and whatever else. Also remember inbetween full body workouts you need rest, and as for cardio its wise to do 30 mins to an hour of Running or whatever else everyday.

Sure it's nice to aim for a Bruce Lee figure but really it is unlikely. You would have to be experienced and dedicated with the Gym and more importantly with nutrition. You need to take in enough Calories, Protein and Vitamins/minerals to grow properly.

The problem is, when you're 15 and at a young age its difficult to build up a fuller figure. For males your body continues to grow and broaden until about 21. When I trained at 15 I bearly noticed any difference apart from strength and better muscle definition, it's only now at 16 and 6 months that I'm starting to bulk out, but thats also because I've learn't a lot and did my research. So basically you'll start to notice significant changes within the first 6 months to a year (IF you do everything correctly), but it will be years before you get anywhere near the figure of Bruce Lee, and you might not even end up hitting your target at all, who knows.

But yeah, to be blunt and put everything in a moderatly offensive nutshell, the routine is crap, ditch it, do some research on T-nation and on this forum, get some advice and help, visit a Gym, familiarise yourself and build an entirely new exercise and nutrition routine which you must stick to.

That's all the advice I can give and it's the same advice I would of gave to myself when I stared training at 15, and I'm about 16 1/2 years old now.

[Reakt]

The dumb-bell weights you are using sound fine.

The only way you could build Muscle with 5kg Dumbells is if you did curls with your Fingers.

Although it really depends. At 15 its hard to tell someones strength, I know kid's who could lift triple that but I also know others who would be feeling the pain after 15 reps with a 5kg dumbell, but I'm just using bicep curls as an example here, they might work for some things but you need more weights for different exercises without question.

[jwt]

The only way you could build Muscle with 5kg Dumbells is if you did curls with your Fingers.

Although it really depends. At 15 its hard to tell someones strength, I know kid's who could lift triple that but I also know others who would be feeling the pain after 15 reps with a 5kg dumbell, but I'm just using bicep curls as an example here, they might work for some things but you need more weights for different exercises without question.

As you say, it depends upon his exisitng strength. But 5Kg can be good for some triceps and trapezius exercises if a little light for the biceps. Horses for courses.

[Reakt]

As you say, it depends upon his exisitng strength. But 5Kg can be good for some triceps and trapezius exercises if a little light for the biceps. Horses for courses.

I'd say with 5KG until he gets stronger he could probably do:

Wrist curls
Lateral Dumbell raises for Deltoids
Overhead Tricep exercises
Possibly some Pectoral Flies

Other then that, he needs a Gym.

[karate princess]

Hi I am 15 years old, I am a black belt in ITF TKD and Judo, but I need the body to compliment my skill!

I am 5 ft 10 inches and weigh 9 stone 3 pounds. Not much. I am a cross between an ectomorph and a mesomorph (body type). I am very serious about my martial arts and want to be the best I can be.

Being 5ft 10 and weighing only 9.3 stone, it sounds like you are quite skinny or slight. I'm a bit confused because I thought that all that Judo training would bulk you up and make you bigger, like weight and muscle wise.

[taekwonguy]

well i am actually pretty strong and bruce lee weighed 7 and a half stone!

[karate princess]

well i am actually pretty strong and bruce lee weighed 7 and a half stone!
I think that's crazy, 7 and a half? Then he's BMI would only be around 16.8 which is underweight for he's height. It doesn't seem right with all that muscle how could he weigh so little?

[Skrom]

judo doesn't make you bigger, it's just that judo attracts big guys :p

as a former Fitness Instructor with the British (Drug Free) Powerlifting Association I stand by my comments that heavy weight training too early can damage the bone shape.
i suppose it could, if you really piled much more weight than you could handle and managed to damage your growth plates. of course, doing that will damage you in some way or another no matter how old you are.

the only reason i can see to keep younger people away from weights is that some may not be mature enough to know how to lift with good form and not injure themselves or others.

calling yourself a former fitness instructor doesn't help your credibility much, by the way. when's the last time you did any research on this subject? as far as i know, very few people defend your point of view these days.

I think that's crazy, 7 and a half? Then he's BMI would only be around 16.8 which is underweight for he's height. It doesn't seem right with all that muscle how could he weigh so little?
he had an unhealthy level of bodyfat. that's why. also, he had extremely weak legs...all his muscle was in his upper body apparently.

[taekwonguy]

he could hold a 75kg barbell out in front of him self arms locked for 30 seconds! could cycle 10 miles in 45 minutes and could do 2 finger press ups with one arm and he weighed 7 and a half stone!!!!!

even better his quickest movements was 500ths of a second punching out from his hands by his side!

He is surley the ultimate martial artist!

Apparently his sidekicks felt like being hit by a car!

[Skrom]

he could hold a 75kg barbell out in front of him self arms locked for 30 seconds! could cycle 10 miles in 45 minutes and could do 2 finger press ups with one arm and he weighed 7 and a half stone!!!!!

even better his quickest movements was 500ths of a second punching out from his hands by his side!

He is surley the ultimate martial artist!
QUIT NUTRIDING. it's annoying.

[Beowolf]

Bruce Lee, by todays standards of fitness is not incredibly impressive. His training methods are today considered, by people with knowhow, to be terribly outdated, sometimes useless, and at times down right dangerous.

No doubt he was an impressive martial artist. No doubt he was strong, fast, and had amazing technique, but listen to reason.

Find a gym. Deadlift. Squat. Bench. Row. Eat. Repeat.

You will NOT stunt your growth.

When jumping, you exert around seven times your own bodyweight upon your bone structure. Obviously, your not going to squat that much. If jumping doesn't stunt your growth, squating won't either.

[karate princess]

QUIT NUTRIDING. it's annoying.
LMAO!

[taekwonguy]

wots LMAO ?

[jwt]

calling yourself a former fitness instructor doesn't help your credibility much, by the way. when's the last time you did any research on this subject? as far as i know, very few people defend your point of view these days.

Well I can scan in the certificate if you like. I only got the fitness instructor award because the BPA only award Gym instructors to people who push weights as their main sport (as to those who use them as a support tool). Putting down other people's opinions without backing up your viewpoint doesn't mean much either. :confused:

I last did formal research on physical training 4 years ago when I qualified as an Obstacle Course Instructor with the Army at STANTA (which I am about to renew hence suffer the course - this time at Browndown - all over again), but I keep up to date through reading and as I work alongside secondary school PE teachers several times a week I check on their policies and the reasons behind them. :D

At a guess taekwondoguy has got about 5 - 8 inches to grow. He is light and needs to accustom his body to weight gradually. My personal advice would be to stick to weights where he can do 3 - 4 sets of 10 reps for the next year, increasing his load each week; eating for bulk and then progressing to heavier weights with shorter reps if he wants. It all depends upon whether his main growth has begun to slow down and he is about to increase gradually or whether he is still going to sprout another few inches in a few months.

[karate princess]

wots LMAO?

Do you mean what does LMAO mean or why am I LMAO?

[jwt]

You will NOT stunt your growth.

Eating less calories than required while growing will stunt your growth, not weightlifting per se. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

When jumping, you exert around seven times your own bodyweight upon your bone structure. Obviously, your not going to squat that much. If jumping doesn't stunt your growth, squating won't either.


Your bone structure is aligned to take the shock force of jumping as is all the tissue that supports it. Pushing/lifting weights exerts a different type of pressure. This is why with the fist aligned correctly you can break hard objects such as bricks or wood with no ill effects whereas incorrectly aligned you can break bones in your hand or wrist.

Whatever the differences of opinion here on this (I can't help but note from young weightlifters so far), I hope we all agree that if you are going to do weight training it should be (initially at least) under the professional supervision of someone who is aware of your physical and mental state and what you want to achieve.

[Beowolf]

Eating less calories than required while growing will stunt your growth, not weightlifting per se. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.



Your bone structure is aligned to take the shock force of jumping as is all the tissue that supports it. Pushing/lifting weights exerts a different type of pressure. This is why with the fist aligned correctly you can break hard objects such as bricks or wood with no ill effects whereas incorrectly aligned you can break bones in your hand or wrist.

Whatever the differences of opinion here on this (I can't help but note from young weightlifters so far), I hope we all agree that if you are going to do weight training it should be (initially at least) under the professional supervision of someone who is aware of your physical and mental state and what you want to achieve.

Apparently, I've misunderstood you. But you've also misunderstood me.

If you lift and eat like 3 men, it most likely won't stunt your growth if your past your "shooting up like a rocket" phase. EX: I'm 5' 9'' ish, lift heavy, and eat like a wildabeast. I've been assured by 3 top notch (and I mean top notch SUNY Stonybrook) docs that it won't effect my further growth.

Sorry if you thought I was arguing with you. I agree mostly with what you've said.

[jwt]

Apparently, I've misunderstood you. But you've also misunderstood me.

If you lift and eat like 3 men, it most likely won't stunt your growth if your past your "shooting up like a rocket" phase. EX: I'm 5' 9'' ish, lift heavy, and eat like a wildabeast. I've been assured by 3 top notch (and I mean top notch SUNY Stonybrook) docs that it won't effect my further growth.

Sorry if you thought I was arguing with you. I agree mostly with what you've said.

I didn't think you were arguing with me.
The important thing you've pointed out there is your eating habit and where you think you are in your growth phase.
I don't mind people arguing, so long as both people have valid things to say. :D

[taekwonguy]

@ Karate Princess:

both

[karate princess]

Oh right hehe, sorry...

LMAO = Laugh my a*** off (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say it)

I'm laughing my butt off because I thought what Skrom said was slightly amusing, I always type LMAO even if I'm not actually laughing my butt off, but just let out a giggle.

[taekwonguy]

lol ok, but Bruce Lee was the ultimate martial artist. he is an example to us all, for example cross training! Inspiration, there are those who are jealous and therefore insult him.

[karate princess]

lol ok, but Bruce Lee was the ultimate martial artist. he is an example to us all, for example cross training! Inspiration, there are those who are jealous and therefore insult him.
I like Bruce Lee because of his dedication, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're not dedicated you will never be the best that you can be. It is a shame that he died, I would have loved to have seen what he looked like or what he'd be doing now.

[Skrom]

this thread is starting to suck pretty badly.

jwtitchen - i don't want to see your certificate. my point was that athletic trainers in general have a very bad reputation for not knowing what the hell they're talking about. i'm not going to say that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, because quite honestly, i have no idea what you're even trying to say at this point.

first you say that lifting weights will stunt his growth. then you say that lifting weights will not stunt his growth, but eating less will (what gives you the idea he'll be eating less?). then you actually recommend that he lifts weights, which is exactly what i was suggesting and what you were arguing against in the first place. on top of that, you say that he's got 5-8 inches to grow? he's 5'10, his father was 6'1, and his mother was 5'7...but you expect him to be 6'3 at the very least?

Putting down other people's opinions without backing up your viewpoint doesn't mean much either.
i backed up my viewpoint at least as much as you backed up yours. no, saying "i have a certificate" doesn't count as backing up your viewpoint. i said that screwing up your form and/or using way too much weight can damage your growth plates, but aside from that, there's no way that lifting will stunt your growth.

taekwonguy: one more nutriding comment about how bruce lee is the greatest martial artist of all time and i'll hunt you down without a second thought. get back on topic or stop posting or whatever, but no more bruce lee in this thread.

[jwt]

this thread is starting to suck pretty badly.

jwtitchen - i don't want to see your certificate. my point was that athletic trainers in general have a very bad reputation for not knowing what the hell they're talking about. i'm not going to say that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, because quite honestly, i have no idea what you're even trying to say at this point.

first you say that lifting weights will stunt his growth. then you say that lifting weights will not stunt his growth, but eating less will (what gives you the idea he'll be eating less?). then you actually recommend that he lifts weights, which is exactly what i was suggesting and what you were arguing against in the first place. on top of that, you say that he's got 5-8 inches to grow? he's 5'10, his father was 6'1, and his mother was 5'7...but you expect him to be 6'3 at the very least?


i backed up my viewpoint at least as much as you backed up yours. no, saying "i have a certificate" doesn't count as backing up your viewpoint. i said that screwing up your form and/or using way too much weight can damage your growth plates, but aside from that, there's no way that lifting will stunt your growth.

taekwonguy: one more nutriding comment about how bruce lee is the greatest martial artist of all time and i'll hunt you down without a second thought. get back on topic or stop posting or whatever, but no more bruce lee in this thread.

I appear to have misunderstood you as much as you misunderstood me. What I said was that

I think before you continue with this sort of regime you need to consider how much you may yet have to grow. You are likely to be a bit taller than both your parents with good nutrition and if you are still quite short of this mark I would advise against heavy weights while your bones are still growing. Too heavy a weight during major growth spurts can bend your bones.


As I clarified on subsequent posts I see two issues, one is doing too heavy weight training in a growth spurt and the other is insufficient nutrition in the same period (most people don't realise how much they have to eat to sustain muscle growth and this is further affected if you are growing fast through puberty as well - hunger and actual dietary needs are two different things). One can damage the bones, the other can stunt growth. If I was unclear about this then I apologise. I wasn't arguing against weights full stop, I was advising caution and seeking medical and professional advice. The weight regime I recommended is a light and steady one, not a maximum bulk up or strength increase one. I got the impression you were advising towards the latter - sorry if I got that wrong.

I made a mistake on the height thing, thinking he was 5 9 not 5 10 (9 stone straight afterwars is what did it). I'm no expert on growth proportion to parentage but anywhere between 1 and 4 inches taller than his father is what I'd expect (especially given the tall relations) and seems to be the trend I've observed while being involved in secondary education.

Much as I admire Bruce Lee for what he achieved in his life, I'll happily join you on the hunt if there is any more nutriding on one thread. :D

[Reakt]

I personally believe lifting weights at a young age (I'm not saying 15 is the young age I'm talking about) is bad for you. Since your Bones, joints, ligaments and muscles are still growing and shaping that regular pressure of heavy weight exercises and Squats can't be good for you. I'm not saying I think it shapes bones, I just think over a prolonged period of time it may interfere with natural adolescent growth.

Just my opinion.

[Skrom]

well i still don't agree with you when you say that heavy weights can "bend your bones", but i guess it doesn't matter as long as you're not against him lifting. i also think he should be doing a 3x10 type program for awhile, so i guess we agree on the important things at least.

[robertmap]

Hi All,

I think Bruce Lee was AWESOME...

As to the other stuff - like what the thread is meant to be about...

Well...

Nobody has mentioned yet the KEY to any form of physical training...

The inner game...

You have GOT to find a regime that works for YOU and that gives you a BUZZ - that and arguably that alone is the greatest single factor in putting on muscle, taking off weight or WHATEVER....

OK my evidence base...

There are a gazillion people who do body building, martial arts, whatever. Many of them have fitness regimes that have worked WONDERS for them. Many of those regimes are contradictory in the extreme. It's the MINDSET that is the over-riding factor...

Discuss... :) :) :)

All the best.

Robert.

[Skrom]

I personally believe lifting weights at a young age (I'm not saying 15 is the young age I'm talking about) is bad for you. Since your Bones, joints, ligaments and muscles are still growing and shaping that regular pressure of heavy weight exercises and Squats can't be good for you. I'm not saying I think it shapes bones, I just think over a prolonged period of time it may interfere with natural adolescent growth.

Just my opinion.
didn't see this earlier. i don't understand why you're sharing your opinion if you know next to nothing about this kind of stuff (i'm talking about that thread with the gymnast video), but i'll explain it real quick.

stunted growth is caused by damage to the growth plates. the growth plates are pretty much only damaged by some sort of trauma, like getting slammed or tackled or hit by a car or whatever. having a barbell on your back and squatting with good form for a grand total of probably 20-30 seconds before taking a break is not going to come even remotely close to damaging your growth plates. to damage your growth plates through weightlifting, you would pretty much have to load up a barbell, stand up on a box, and jump off with no intention of landing on your feet; even then it's a gamble.

there's a bunch of info on growth plates at this site if you want more: http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/growth_plate/ffgrowth.htm

[pmitch89]

I'm 17 years old, I weigh 226 lbs, bench 365 lbs, and squat 405 lbs, I started lifting at the age of 13 or 14, there is nothing wrong with lifting at the age of 15.

All right, heres my opinion. Get in the gym and start a bodybuilding routine. You do not want to do a powerlifting routine due to flexability issues (you lose flexibility anyways whenever you pack on muscle).

Because you want to maintain flexability for your martial arts do extensive stretching before and after your work out.

Start with basic lifts like bench, powerclean, squat, ect. But keep in mind, because a bodybuilding routine is ideal for your situation you want to keep the routine set at low weight and many reps (example: Bench-4x20 with 85 lbs).

Because you are young you still have those raging hormones, now is the ideal time to lift weights, because those hormones allow you to gain muscle mass faster than normal (almost like steriods), so get in the gym A.S.A.P.

And Good Luck :D

[Hapuka]

he could hold a 75kg barbell out in front of him self arms locked for 30 seconds! could cycle 10 miles in 45 minutes and could do 2 finger press ups with one arm and he weighed 7 and a half stone!!!!!

even better his quickest movements was 500ths of a second punching out from his hands by his side!

He is surley the ultimate martial artist!

Apparently his sidekicks felt like being hit by a car!


What happend to jackie chan and tony jaa?

[Edwyn Lilac]

Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but what's a stone?

[Hapuka]

Do you know whats funny! Im 15 years old, im a 5 foot 8 female, Do taekwon-do, Do weight lifting at the gym, have abs and weigh 100 kg! Why do you want to have muscles like bruce lee so much? I remember when I was 12 and I wanted to look like spider-man! I bet if a sumo kicked you it would feel getting smashed by a bus, how about Gen. choi? He didn't have muscle like bruce lee and he could pack a punch! (unless you can find a picture for me and prove me wrong) lol. Besides bruce lee trained hard because he was acting in movies. I wouldn't follow bruce lee in the area of weight lifting. Go to a personal trainer at a gym and he/she will tell you what exercises are best for you.

[TheMachine]

I'm 17 years old, I weigh 226 lbs, bench 365 lbs, and squat 405 lbs, I started lifting at the age of 13 or 14, there is nothing wrong with lifting at the age of 15.

All right, heres my opinion. Get in the gym and start a bodybuilding routine. You do not want to do a powerlifting routine due to flexability issues (you lose flexibility anyways whenever you pack on muscle).

Because you want to maintain flexability for your martial arts do extensive stretching before and after your work out.

Start with basic lifts like bench, powerclean, squat, ect. But keep in mind, because a bodybuilding routine is ideal for your situation you want to keep the routine set at low weight and many reps (example: Bench-4x20 with 85 lbs).

Because you are young you still have those raging hormones, now is the ideal time to lift weights, because those hormones allow you to gain muscle mass faster than normal (almost like steriods), so get in the gym A.S.A.P.

And Good Luck :D

This is what annoys me, kids giving advice when they haven't spent enough time in the mat and weight room. Doing a bodybuilding routine for a martial artist is bad, bad in the sense like sending little boys and girls to play with Michael jackson bad.

Read the sticky I posted. Don't worry, height is genetically dictated and your nutrition and lifestyle will only take it further or lower.

[Skrom]

Doing a bodybuilding routine for a martial artist is bad, bad in the sense like sending little boys and girls to play with Michael jackson bad.
um...no. gaining some mass isn't going to kill you. there are situations where 5x5 is not the answer, and this is one of them. bodybuilding routines are especially appropriate for new lifters who still need to work on their form...more reps = more practice and less risk.

of course, when i say "bodybuilding routine", i'm not talking about exerpts from muscle and fiction or some equally stupid magazine. a bodybuilding routine is just a routine where the primary goal is to gain muscle, and that usually involves higher reps.

[TheMachine]

um...no. gaining some mass isn't going to kill you. there are situations where 5x5 is not the answer, and this is one of them. bodybuilding routines are especially appropriate for new lifters who still need to work on their form...more reps = more practice and less risk.

of course, when i say "bodybuilding routine", i'm not talking about exerpts from muscle and fiction or some equally stupid magazine. a bodybuilding routine is just a routine where the primary goal is to gain muscle, and that usually involves higher reps.

Prove to me the 5x5 isn't worth it and I'll gladly ship you my car and mtorcycle. I've been using this to build up guys and they are stronger, faster and more explosive. Keeping reps low but adding more reps makes it easier to develop the proper form without the worry of fatigue setting in which could focus no form breakdown.

You forgot one thing to mention kid, to put on mass 80% of the battle is EATING repeat EATING. Which wouldmean, since the original poster is a 15 year old with the metabolism of a a revving lamborghini, anything that is within range and edible is fair game.

[Skrom]

i never said 5x5 "isn't worth it", i said there are situations where 5x5 is not the answer. if i've got a guy who's completely new to lifting, i have him do reps in the 8-12 range...it makes more sense than just jumping to 5x5, because the weight is lighter, it helps them get used to handling the weight and using correct form, and it helps them build a solid base in terms of mass.

Keeping reps low but adding more reps makes it easier to...
no matter how many times i read this, it doesn't make sense.

i didn't "forget" to mention eating. yes, obviously diet is a huge factor; it always is, no matter what your goals are. that doesn't mean that suddenly his workout plan doesn't matter. someone who eats a ton and does a higher rep workout is going to put on more mass than someone who eats a ton and does low reps.

[TheMachine]

i never said 5x5 "isn't worth it", i said there are situations where 5x5 is not the answer. if i've got a guy who's completely new to lifting, i have him do reps in the 8-12 range...it makes more sense than just jumping to 5x5, because the weight is lighter, it helps them get used to handling the weight and using correct form, and it helps them build a solid base in terms of mass.


no matter how many times i read this, it doesn't make sense.

i didn't "forget" to mention eating. yes, obviously diet is a huge factor; it always is, no matter what your goals are. that doesn't mean that suddenly his workout plan doesn't matter. someone who eats a ton and does a higher rep workout is going to put on more mass than someone who eats a ton and does low reps.


Keeping reps low prevents fatigue from causing form break.

I have seen more than 30 guys i a span of 6 months pack on 20 lbs of muscle naturally using the 5x5 as a foundational routine. Nothing wrong with the 8-2 rep range, but I just think 5x5 is better. Besides, at the end of the day, its the results that matter. And seeing a good share of guys turn into bigger, leaner and faster athletes in the past months isn't called results, I don't know what you can call it.

[Keikai]

well i am actually pretty strong and bruce lee weighed 7 and a half stone!
but Bruce Lee trained to perfect himself constantly, at 15years of age you body is still growing, you cannot compare yourself to him at all.

[taekwonguy]

yes i know so i've got plenty of time to work on it and i've got the dedication. at the moment i cannot afford to go to a gym more than twice a week on sat and sun as i am doing my GCSE's!

[Keikai]

err isnt it summer hols?

[taekwonguy]

I am going on holiday for two weeks on sunday and the have half a week before school

[Skrom]

Keeping reps low prevents fatigue from causing form break.

alright, well i personally think that it's easier to keep your form together when you're using less weight, but maybe that's just me. when i was learning to overhead squat, for example, i did not stack a bunch of weight and go 5x5, i did a few sets of 12 with less weight. that makes a lot more sense to me, but apparently it doesn't to you, so i'm going to quit because we're not getting anywhere.

[taekwonguy]

so could anyone give me a workout plan i can spend about an hour or two a night using two 5kg dumbells? and maybe a little cardio? my stretching program is perfect: Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz

[Reakt]

This is what annoys me, kids giving advice when they haven't spent enough time in the mat and weight room.

Now this I don't agree with. Experience will only take you so far in changing your perception and beliefs in Weight training and exercise, if I already know what works best what good is doing it for an extra 10 years going to achieve? In the couple of years since I started getting into fitness (I'm 16) I've experimented and tried everything I had to try to make my mind up about the important points of Weightlifting, exercise and nutrition (to some extent). Sure experience makes me wiser but unless Human bodies change what works best wont.

And before you say it, I fully agree with low reps/sets and heavier weights (I seem to be one of the few who does around here). I normally go for 3x3-5 (I even tried 2x3-5 last week on advice of a friend, I'm skeptical but he is pretty big).

I also agree on the eating factor, which I mentioned in the first post on this thread.

so could anyone give me a workout plan i can spend about an hour or two a night using two 5kg dumbells? and maybe a little cardio? my stretching program is perfect: Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz

You have to listen to the advice. 5kg dumbells, in a full body workout, are going to do NOTHING. Sure you might be able to do some wrist curls or lateral raises with a bit of pain on the 12th rep but they will be useless for just about everything else, which cuts core exercises like deadlifts and bench presses out of the question, which you need. Unless you're prepared to go to the Gym (or buy a decent dumbell/barbell set) forget gaining any kind of lean mass.

[taekwonguy]

ah thats a shame thanks for your help anyway guys

[The Decay of Meaning]

Hi taekwonguy. I'd started lifting weights seriously when I was at your age.

May I recommend you buy some magazines on exercise, weightlifting and such? It's always nice to have some theory/extra knowledge.

I would suggest you start off with some simple/baisc exercises. You don't have to use very much weight. Of course you will have to feel your muscles working. But I think right now you should just get to know the basic principles behind working out with weights.

Remember that you get more muscles when you do an exercise CORRECT with less weight, than if you do the exercise sloppy with lots of weight.

PS: There are a lot of people who lift weights in a very wrong manner. If I were you I would buy some magazines and listen to what the pro's have to say, and implement what you can into your training.


Most likely those you will see at the gym will have many weird theories. Be careful with who you listen to.

Also, and this is really important:
Remember that sleep, rest and food intake is just as important as training, and you should focus on this just as much as your training.

Good luck and have fun! :)

[TheMachine]

Hi taekwonguy. I'd started lifting weights seriously when I was at your age.

May I recommend you buy some magazines on exercise, weightlifting and such? It's always nice to have some theory/extra knowledge.

I would suggest you start off with some simple/baisc exercises. You don't have to use very much weight. Of course you will have to feel your muscles working. But I think right now you should just get to know the basic principles behind working out with weights.

Remember that you get more muscles when you do an exercise CORRECT with less weight, than if you do the exercise sloppy with lots of weight.

PS: There are a lot of people who lift weights in a very wrong manner. If I were you I would buy some magazines and listen to what the pro's have to say, and implement what you can into your training.


Most likely those you will see at the gym will have many weird theories. Be careful with who you listen to.

Also, and this is really important:
Remember that sleep, rest and food intake is just as important as training, and you should focus on this just as much as your training.

Good luck and have fun! :)


Please not the magazines. they're the worst place for info. We have a h&f Library which is a mile better

[TheMachine]

so could anyone give me a workout plan i can spend about an hour or two a night using two 5kg dumbells? and maybe a little cardio? my stretching program is perfect: Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz

Twice a week is good enough for the meantime

[Reakt]

ah thats a shame thanks for your help anyway guys

Just wondering, is there some specific reason why you can't attend a Gym?

If there is and you're really serious about getting Muscle, your only decent option is to save up and get a decent dumbell or barbell set (I'd go with a dumbell set for more versatility), or try and get it for your Birthday/Christmas. Parents are always more inclined to buy things if they are to do with keeping you healthy ;) I had first hand experience, my younger Brother is overweight so my Uncle bought us a £600 treadmill on the promise that we, or at least he, would use it everyday.

[The Decay of Meaning]

Please not the magazines. they're the worst place for info. We have a h&f Library which is a mile better

Why not?


h&f?

And why are national champions (who are regularily interviewed in these magazines about their methods, exercises etc.) worse info than Joe or Jack at the gym?

[tom pain]

Why not?


h&f?

And why are national champions (who are regularily interviewed in these magazines about their methods, exercises etc.) worse info than Joe or Jack at the gym?


Becuase we have a wealth of useful free information in here. :D All he needs and more!

[The Decay of Meaning]

Ah, true, the internet is a great resource.
And he could also read from the experts, watch videos of how exercises are performed (for some it can be easier than just watching pictures) etc.

[taekwonguy]

ok so how about i continue with my workout since i've got nothing better to do and I go to the gym for 2 hours on a saturday and sunday? any suggestions of workout plans?

[jwt]

If you are going to go the gym you should go at least twice a week, but don't go on consecutive days as it doesn't allow you to reach the peak recovery point in myofybril overcompensation. Try and even the gaps so you have a Monday and Thursday workout for example.

[Reakt]

If you are going to go the gym you should go at least twice a week, but don't go on consecutive days as it doesn't allow you to reach the peak recovery point in myofybril overcompensation. Try and even the gaps so you have a Monday and Thursday workout for example.

That's exactly what I do so I would recommend it, works for me.

[TheMachine]

Magazines do nothing but give misleading info and exist to sell supplements.

[karate princess]

Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but what's a stone?
A stone is 14 lbs.

[taekwonguy]

well i can go on saturday, how about but i can definatley not do either monday or friday. 2 times a week is the max

[Reakt]

well i can go on saturday, how about but i can definatley not do either monday or friday. 2 times a week is the max

2 times a week is fine IF you make the most of it and really use maximum effort in a full body workout. You must also have at least a couple days rest inbetween, try Wednesday and Saturday, or Thursday and Sunday.

[taekwonguy]

so if i do my total body workout at the gym but with high intensity weights at 3x5 on a sunday and wednesday?

[The Decay of Meaning]

Magazines do nothing but give misleading info and exist to sell supplements.

Yes, magazines have become quite commercialised. What I did, when learning about bodybuilding, was to stay away from the commercials in the magazine and read the interviews and such. I do have friends who have been interviewed in bodybuilding magazines and they have given their best tips. So its not as if everything in magazines is commercial. I had limited time on the internet back then, so I didn't have the option of reading on the net very much. In any case magazines became (in fact) a good substitute. If you buy a magazine with 120 pages, maybe 80 pages will be non-commercialized. That's 80 pages of good reading. Not everyone have unlimited access to the internet, so you will have to learn other ways.



Also, back to taekwonguy, personally I would've never tried to work the whole body in two days a week. Of course it is possible. Three days sounds more like it if you want to train the whole body.

Besides there is limited time one should train at a time. There goes a point where your performance will start sinking.

If you have three or four days you can spread it more out.

[Skrom]

you do realize that pretty much all the guys that are interviewed in those magazines are on steroids, right? most of what they say doesn't apply to you.

[The Decay of Meaning]

you do realize that pretty much all the guys that are interviewed in those magazines are on steroids, right? most of what they say doesn't apply to you.

Regarding steroids, that might very well be correct. However, I don't really get your point.
Anabolic steroids are steroid hormones that promote cell growth and division, resulting in growth of several types of tissues, especially muscle and bone, right?

It's not like they turn robot just because they are on steroids. They will still have two legs, two arms, back and stomach, shoulders etc. The phsyical structure and organization of the body pretty much remain the same.

If they are on steroids or not doesn't really matter, as far as I can see. One still have a lot to learn from the good bodybuilders. And of course not everything might fit you. You can't (or at least shouldn't) copy everything. We all have different bodies. You can take tips from experienced people, and you probably should, but you will have to implement it so that it fits you, your body and your goals.

[Beowolf]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=487636
Designer Athletes

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1034530
Hammer Down: Strength

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B7797B1ECBE70C38E1529CB631 518973.hydra?id=1083869
Hammer Down: Endurance

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-100-training
Westside for Skinny Bastards II

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=EDEA8D2E598336BDF40BC2CAF7 D6F823.hydra?id=1021940
The Quality Mass Diet

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=856188
Tailor-Made Nutrition, Part I

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B848256C761E82FF3516554AE1 4DB215.hydra?id=1086975
Program Design for Dummies

Bold = Important.

T-nation.com is a godsend for all weightlifting kind. Go to the articles archive. Pick a topic (either training or nutrition in your case) and READ. Just keep reading until you find what your looking for. Trust me, you will.

[Skrom]

steroids don't just promote growth, they increase recovery time and make the user able to handle very high volume workouts. that's why every damn routine you see in those magazines has 5 different curl variations for 4x12 in it.

[pmitch89]

This is what annoys me, kids giving advice when they haven't spent enough time in the mat and weight room. Doing a bodybuilding routine for a martial artist is bad, bad in the sense like sending little boys and girls to play with Michael jackson bad.

Read the sticky I posted. Don't worry, height is genetically dictated and your nutrition and lifestyle will only take it further or lower.

Tell me, what would you suggest? A powerlifting routine? Powerlifting definately ruins the flexability needed for martial arts even worse than a bodybuilding routine.

And saying I haven't spent enough time in the weight room is complete nonsense, for the past 3 years I've been in the weight room 4 days a week. Don't jump to your own conclusions on someone you don't even know, bud. :D

[Shrukin89]

taekwonguy when I was your age I wanted to be like him as well. (Well I guess you can say I wanted to be more of like a tank) But you may not want to over do it with the exercises. I always wanted to do new and harder challenges.

Like:

-Running at least 5km, with 50 pounds in a backpack in deep snow.
-Being able to do 200 situps a day
-100 Push ups a day
-1st set 150 squeezes with handgrips, then 200 squeezes with handgrips on 2nd set.
-5 sets of 20 lunges on each leg, (holding for 10 seconds after each set) with 30 pounds on your back
-Holding plank position for 5 minutes
-Sitting 90 degrees on the wall for 5 minutes (with socks, and shirt on) which was more challenging than without shirt or socks.
-Running 8 km on a treadmill going 14km/h as it was the max speed for mine (with a 50 percent incline)
-4 sets of 30 leg lifts on each leg with 5 pound ankle weights
-Shadow Box for about an hour, or box on the punching bag for the full hour.
-Bike top gear uphill for about 2 km (in summer of course :p)

If i'm bored I usually do some of the same exercises above, but before all of this I do around 30 minutes of stretching.

And afterwards I would keep my body tense for further resistance and was also to burn more calories through out the day rather than being relaxed. I loved enduring pain, as pain was like a friend to me. Didn't show any sign or emotion of pain, and showed no fear.

All I had in my mind was that I could adapt and further be able to accomplish through more challenges, more harder challenges.

A couple of years later I came up with back problem from the stress from all of the exersizes.

And one hell of a stiff neck in Spring, when it was the flu season that came around. I still have a back problem and it will still be a problem when I grow up.


What really stopped me training like that, was my gf that I had. But for a year and a half we had continous conflict between each other which made me, deeply depressed and regretful (by doing other things), but I tried to exercise myself up so hard that I get sore the next morning to get over the depressing and regretful thoughts that enters my mind, and to beat myself up. I was over doing it with my self-discipline and felt that I had to torture myself to get over the thoughts. As it continued I became less motivated to do anything. I became less interested to beat myself up because I knew I felt that it would just hurt me more, as it did. Pain was no longer a friend, fear as well, it overwhelmed me. I finally dumped her with all of my friend's that helped me. I didn't have the courage to dump her, cuz at the time I was a gentle and an easy going person. I didn't want her to feel sad, depressed, or mad, for not getting what she wants. I was sucked into anything by her. And further onwards it destroyed the person of who I was to become.

But anyways I figured it was good for a cause for me. I would have had so much damage to my joints.

But as for this year i'm taking it easy doing normal exercises and trying to have a normal lifestyle as like everyone else. That's my story for today.

[taekwonguy]

thanks a lot for the advice! Ok so with 2 5kg dumbells and able to go to the gym twice a week, whats the best workout I can do. I don't want to be Bruce Lee but would like to put on some muscle as I am quite skinny

[Reakt]

thanks a lot for the advice! Ok so with 2 5kg dumbells and able to go to the gym twice a week, whats the best workout I can do. I don't want to be Bruce Lee but would like to put on some muscle as I am quite skinny

Bench press
Dips
Bicep Curls
Lateral raises
Rows
Squats
Deadlift
Crunches

Try to encorporate most if not all of those exercises. You should also find a good back exercise to do and choose whatever else you want.

[Shrukin89]

thanks a lot for the advice! Ok so with 2 5kg dumbells and able to go to the gym twice a week, whats the best workout I can do. I don't want to be Bruce Lee but would like to put on some muscle as I am quite skinny

Your welcome :)

What I think the best workout depends on which area you want to build. Unless if you want to build up everywhere, as Reakt mentioned some good ones to use.

Going to the gym twice a week or 3 times a week for an hour is good.

If you want to build muscle, gradually increase weight from each small set (perferably 8 per set)
If you want to tone your muscles keep the same weight but keep it at (10-12 per set)

If you are using the machines or using free weights.
But yeah remember to limit yourself.

You can also get some more advice from a personal trainer or from a Pro Body Builder.

How about the foods that your eatting? A good ratio would be 60% Carbs, 25-30% Protien, and 10-15% Fat. I dunno you can choose w/e ratio is the best for you, and if you already have a healthy eatting plan, stick with it if you like it. :D

I think you can also check on the web of what Bruce Lee's meals were.

[TheMachine]

Tell me, what would you suggest? A powerlifting routine? Powerlifting definately ruins the flexability needed for martial arts even worse than a bodybuilding routine.

And saying I haven't spent enough time in the weight room is complete nonsense, for the past 3 years I've been in the weight room 4 days a week. Don't jump to your own conclusions on someone you don't even know, bud. :D


I'm suggesting a strength routine... not necesarily a powerlifting routine.. The only time fleibility gets sacrificed is if you don't stretch. the 5x5 has been proven for decades to produce powerful athletes, faster and stronger athletes. One of the guys in our gym who happens to practice judo has been faster and stronger, and able to pull off more throws nowadays. Anothr guy, who is a BJJ practitioner has been tapping guys higher than him in rank after starting the program and his strength is going through the roof.

A Pro basketball player here who is 5'8 can barely touch the rim, he just dunked a basketball this week

If those aren't results, then tell me what are results !!!!

You've been going to the gym for 3 years READ THAT 3 F-N YEARS and yes, I know what or who I'm dealing with that's why I do such :D I do strength coaching for a living so if I don't produce results, that means no money to put food on the table or pay the bills.

I also do martial arts so I know EXACTLY WHAT i'M DOING.

[pmitch89]

I'm suggesting a strength routine... not necesarily a powerlifting routine.. The only time fleibility gets sacrificed is if you don't stretch. the 5x5 has been proven for decades to produce powerful athletes, faster and stronger athletes. One of the guys in our gym who happens to practice judo has been faster and stronger, and able to pull off more throws nowadays. Anothr guy, who is a BJJ practitioner has been tapping guys higher than him in rank after starting the program and his strength is going through the roof.

A Pro basketball player here who is 5'8 can barely touch the rim, he just dunked a basketball this week

If those aren't results, then tell me what are results !!!!

You've been going to the gym for 3 years READ THAT 3 F-N YEARS and yes, I know what or who I'm dealing with that's why I do such :D I do strength coaching for a living so if I don't produce results, that means no money to put food on the table or pay the bills.

I also do martial arts so I know EXACTLY WHAT i'M DOING.

Ok, maybe you do know more about weight training than I do :D , but still, its not like I'm completely ignorant on the subject. I've been through weight training coarses and done strength work outs for Football (american) and Wrestling. I've also done powerlifting routines outside of my athletic training.

But still I get the feeling that you think that I'm completely ignorant and have no room to give advice, instead of trying to discredit me, you should have simple mentioned that you were a strength trainer and gave your professional opinion.

Anyways, I won't take it personally. :D

[Skrom]

One of the guys in our gym who happens to practice judo has been faster and stronger, and able to pull off more throws nowadays. Anothr guy, who is a BJJ practitioner has been tapping guys higher than him in rank after starting the program and his strength is going through the roof.

A Pro basketball player here who is 5'8 can barely touch the rim, he just dunked a basketball this week

really? you mean lifting weights improves athletic performance? no way!

i don't want to get caught up in another argument about this, but seriously, you're acting like 5x5 is the be-all-end-all of weight training. i don't know what you're trying to prove by giving these examples, because an athlete's performance is going to improve if they work hard at just about any decently constructed routine. just saying that these athletes improved after lifting weights for awhile isn't exactly amazing, whether the rep scheme was 5x5 or 4x12 or 8x3.

the argument was never about the effectiveness about 5x5. it was about which sort of routine is going to be the most appropriate for a skinny 15 year old kid who has never lifted weights.

[Crimson_Stone]

thanks a lot for the advice! Ok so with 2 5kg dumbells and able to go to the gym twice a week, whats the best workout I can do. I don't want to be Bruce Lee but would like to put on some muscle as I am quite skinny
Why don't you want to be like Bruce? WWBLD? Read, Research, and Experiment. Keep what is good. Discard what is not. (like Reakt's 30 second reps)

Ok. You got two days at the gym and you got to make the best of them. I would try for two sessions at the gym per day with a 8 hour rest between each session.
Sat:
AM 8x3
PM 3x8

Sun:
AM 3x8
PM 8x3

Exercises:
1. A fun oly lift with some light weights. Olympic Full Body Exercises (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/muscle_group68.html)
2. Deadlifts (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/exercise78.html) or Squats (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/exercise320.html)
3. Pullups or some vertical pull
4. Vertical or horizontal push (military press (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/exercise1036.html) or bench press (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/exercise67.html))
5. Horizontal pull (rows (http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/exercise498.html))

An example:
Sat:
1-Arm Snatch (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-003-training)
Deadlifts
Pullups
Military Press
Bent Over Row

Sun:
Squats
Chinups
Dips
Seated Cable Row
Serattus Crunch (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-035-training)

For the rest of the week:
Research: High Intensity Interval Training
Go out and run.
Body weight routines. Your Body IS a Barbell. (http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/bodyisabarbell.html)

[taekwonguy]

ok, well I really really would love to look like Bruce Lee but people have been saying its impossible. How is my workout? It is full body and on Wednesday and Sunday I can go to the gym and do it with some proper weights

[Reakt]

Why don't you want to be like Bruce? WWBLD? Read, Research, and Experiment. Keep what is good. Discard what is not. (like Reakt's 30 second reps)

Ok. You got two days at the gym and you got to make the best of them. I would try for two sessions at the gym per day with a 8 hour rest between each session.


I guess it was right


Totally Clueless


I also must clarify, each one of my rep's is 5-10 seconds, not 30. Don't twist words.

Two heavy workout sessions per day is possibly the worst thing you can do. After the AM workout your Muscles will enter a state of repair and growth, 8 hours later and nothing has changed. You doing another Weightlifting session at that time would stress the muscles at the early stages of Myofibril repair which would in a way cancel out the workout done earlier on in the day and reduce muscle building efficiency. Training with repairing and tired muscles also reduces what you can lift in a Gym session by a large amount.

I know for one with the way I do my workouts I couldn't lift another weight for at least an entire day.

You need the longest break possible inbetween sessions, the more Muscle repair and growth, the better. So this means you have to space out your sessions in the week, Monday and Thursday, Tuesday and Friday, Wednesday and Saturday etc etc.

If I were to suggest a workout...

Each session I would advise 5x5 or 5x6, whichever you prefer, you could go higher if you want more endurance and flexibility. Remember choose a weight so you will be at the point of near failure on the final rep of each set.

Bench Press
Dips
Dumbell Bicep Curls
Lateral Raises
Upright Row
Deadlifts
Seated Rows
Back Hyperextensions
Squats

You can also throw in some Pecdec flyes, Tricep pulldowns or whatever else if you want. If you feel like you've done enough don't overtrain.

Do this routine once a day two times per week on the days I mentioned. In doing this you also get double the amount of workouts per week then Crimson_Stones idea and you get double the amount of rest compared to his routine.

This is pretty much the same routine I do and after 2 months I'm already gaining weight, getting more muscle definition and using weights one to three sets higher in the weight scale then I was when I first started, so I'm getting good improvements in strength.

[taekwonguy]

ok thanks so no training the other days or stick with my workout for something to do on the days I dont go to the gym?

[Frodocious]

On days when you don't go to the gym you could do bodyweight exercises (many of which you can add weights to - e.g. put your 5kg weights in a backpack and do push ups).

Instead of military presses try handstand pushups.

For some ideas have a look at the articles page on:

http://www.rosstraining.com/

You could also look at adding gymnastic type exercises to your routine, e.g. planche progressions.

Or you could do conditioning work at home, e.g. some form of interval training.

[Reakt]

ok thanks so no training the other days or stick with my workout for something to do on the days I dont go to the gym?

You could do some other exercises for flexibility and endurance inbetween full body workouts at the Gym but you should be aiming to get rest inbetween those sessions, but I suppose doing workouts at home inbetween wont effect rest much, at your age you should be almost repaired after a day or two.

[TheMachine]

really? you mean lifting weights improves athletic performance? no way!

i don't want to get caught up in another argument about this, but seriously, you're acting like 5x5 is the be-all-end-all of weight training. i don't know what you're trying to prove by giving these examples, because an athlete's performance is going to improve if they work hard at just about any decently constructed routine. just saying that these athletes improved after lifting weights for awhile isn't exactly amazing, whether the rep scheme was 5x5 or 4x12 or 8x3.

the argument was never about the effectiveness about 5x5. it was about which sort of routine is going to be the most appropriate for a skinny 15 year old kid who has never lifted weights.

I'm not even gonna get into this kid. We're talking about developing a good foundation of strength. The athletes i mentioened were also lifting way before we introdueced them to the 5x5 and were getting nowehere. of course, a basic, sound strength routine will go wonders in improving performance. Without a proper foundation, plyo could be dangerous and one cannot fully recieve the full benefits of plyo,

Again kid, THIS IS MY JOB SO I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M DOING!

[TheMachine]

I guess it was right



I also must clarify, each one of my rep's is 5-10 seconds, not 30. Don't twist words.

Two heavy workout sessions per day is possibly the worst thing you can do. After the AM workout your Muscles will enter a state of repair and growth, 8 hours later and nothing has changed. You doing another Weightlifting session at that time would stress the muscles at the early stages of Myofibril repair which would in a way cancel out the workout done earlier on in the day and reduce muscle building efficiency. Training with repairing and tired muscles also reduces what you can lift in a Gym session by a large amount.

I know for one with the way I do my workouts I couldn't lift another weight for at least an entire day.

You need the longest break possible inbetween sessions, the more Muscle repair and growth, the better. So this means you have to space out your sessions in the week, Monday and Thursday, Tuesday and Friday, Wednesday and Saturday etc etc.

If I were to suggest a workout...

Each session I would advise 5x5 or 5x6, whichever you prefer, you could go higher if you want more endurance and flexibility. Remember choose a weight so you will be at the point of near failure on the final rep of each set.

Bench Press
Dips
Dumbell Bicep Curls
Lateral Raises
Upright Row
Deadlifts
Seated Rows
Back Hyperextensions
Squats

You can also throw in some Pecdec flyes, Tricep pulldowns or whatever else if you want. If you feel like you've done enough don't overtrain.

Do this routine once a day two times per week on the days I mentioned. In doing this you also get double the amount of workouts per week then Crimson_Stones idea and you get double the amount of rest compared to his routine.

This is pretty much the same routine I do and after 2 months I'm already gaining weight, getting more muscle definition and using weights one to three sets higher in the weight scale then I was when I first started, so I'm getting good improvements in strength.


I'd remove the single joint exrcises ad machine exercises but otherwise the routine is decent.

[Crimson_Stone]

Two heavy workout sessions per day is possibly the worst thing you can do. After the AM workout your Muscles will enter a state of repair and growth, 8 hours later and nothing has changed. You doing another Weightlifting session at that time would stress the muscles at the early stages of Myofibril repair which would in a way cancel out the workout done earlier on in the day and reduce muscle building efficiency. Training with repairing and tired muscles also reduces what you can lift in a Gym session by a large amount.

1. There is NOTHING wrong with Two-a-day training schemes if one has the time to commit. Both Chad Waterbury and Alwyn Cosgrove (both whom have credibility as strength and conditioning coaches) have two-a-day programs, and in their prog's its 8 lifting sessions spread over 4 days per week.

2. Notice the distinct difference in set rep schemes. The individual will lift with far different loads. 8x3 @ 85-90% 1RM or approx 5 RM. 3x8 @ 75-80% 1RM or 10 RM. Lifting sessions should be 45-60 minutes in duration. One should not lift to failure.

3. Practical application of two-a-days can be found in training for sports like football, soccer, baseball, and other out door sports. This is especially popular in the South during the summers. Again, gains thru higher frequency.

I know for one with the way I do my workouts I couldn't lift another weight for at least an entire day.
Sooooo, is that a good thing? :confused:

Bench Press
Dips
Dumbell Bicep Curls
Lateral Raises
Upright Row
Deadlifts
Seated Rows
Back Hyperextensions
Squats
If I understand you correctly, then bicep curls are more important than deadlifts? Squats are the least important exercise of the day? And Pullups have no value at all?

Most people like to organize their routines based on the number of or size of muscles used, which has an almost direct correlation with how much fatigue is induced by the exercise. Another train of thought is to rank what is most important to the individual and lift accordingly. How good can the deadlift be if the grip has been taxed by three different exercises? Why save Squats for the last when one is the most fatigued/tired?

ok, well I really really would love to look like Bruce Lee but people have been saying its impossible.
1. Decied for yourself what is important. Set your goals.
2. Research and educate yourself so that you may achieve your goals.
3. Work and train hard.
It is full body and on Wednesday and Sunday I can go to the gym and do it with some proper weights
Read this. It may work well for you.
2 x 4 muscle (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-115-training)

[SickDevildog]

so could anyone give me a workout plan i can spend about an hour or two a night using two 5kg dumbells? and maybe a little cardio? my stretching program is perfect: Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz

Make yourself a sandbag if you cant go to a gym, you can do all the powerlifts with it:
http://www.rosstraining.com/sandbagconstructionkit.pdf

[Skrom]

I'm not even gonna get into this kid. We're talking about developing a good foundation of strength. The athletes i mentioened were also lifting way before we introdueced them to the 5x5 and were getting nowehere. of course, a basic, sound strength routine will go wonders in improving performance. Without a proper foundation, plyo could be dangerous and one cannot fully recieve the full benefits of plyo,

Again kid, THIS IS MY JOB SO I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M DOING!
1. the fact that your athletes were lifting way before being introduced to 5x5 makes your point even more irrelevant, since as i said before, we are talking about a skinny 15 year old who has never lifted weights. way to ignore the most significant point of my post.

2. just because this is your job does not mean you know what you're doing. i have no way of knowing whether or not you do right now though, since all you've done so far is rant and rave about 5x5. do you just prescribe this to everyone you train, toddlers and senior citizens alike?

3. calling me "kid" repeatedly does not make you right. however, if it makes you feel like a big man, go for it.

[TheMachine]

1. the fact that your athletes were lifting way before being introduced to 5x5 makes your point even more irrelevant, since as i said before, we are talking about a skinny 15 year old who has never lifted weights. way to ignore the most significant point of my post.

2. just because this is your job does not mean you know what you're doing. i have no way of knowing whether or not you do right now though, since all you've done so far is rant and rave about 5x5. do you just prescribe this to everyone you train, toddlers and senior citizens alike?

3. calling me "kid" repeatedly does not make you right. however, if it makes you feel like a big man, go for it.

1. These guys were going NOWEHERE AND GETTING ZERO RESULTS BEFORE WE STARTED TAKING OVER THEIR TRAINING!!!

2. THIS IS MY JOB AND RESULTS MUST BE PRODUCED!! if I don't produce, I can get fired and have no money to pay the bills and put food on the table. Therefore, I mut and have been constantly producing results

I've handled cases from a 15 year old skinny kid to an 81 year old man so again, I know what I'm doing.

Again, you may be learning now, but your flight time isn't enough yet. In a few years, you may even surpass me and I'll look back to this thread but as of now, just let us veterans handle this. You'll have your time, believe me!

[Skrom]

you're still missing the point. i'm assuming that when you say these athletes were getting no results, they had been weight training awhile and had hit a wall in their training, which you helped them break by switching up the rep scheme and whatever else. that situation has nothing to do with this situation, because, as i have said many times already, the OP has never lifted weights before. he's not an athlete, he hasn't hit a plateau, and he's not ready to just jump into heavy lifting.

i'm sure you get results for your clients, but that's still not the point. i'm not looking to have "my time" or whatever...i just disagree with what you're saying, and you're doing nothing to back up your views aside from talking about your job and acting condescending.

[TheMachine]

you're still missing the point. i'm assuming that when you say these athletes were getting no results, they had been weight training awhile and had hit a wall in their training, which you helped them break by switching up the rep scheme and whatever else. that situation has nothing to do with this situation, because, as i have said many times already, the OP has never lifted weights before. he's not an athlete, he hasn't hit a plateau, and he's not ready to just jump into heavy lifting.

i'm sure you get results for your clients, but that's still not the point. i'm not looking to have "my time" or whatever...i just disagree with what you're saying, and you're doing nothing to back up your views aside from talking about your job and acting condescending.

If you read the history of the 5x5, it was used as a foundational routine for NCAA teams to build strength and size to prepare them for other routines in the near future. if there's anything that backs up my claims, its the results. Again, we can go on and on about this but at the end of the days, its the results that matter.

Again, I still believe that the 5x5 is a very good foundational routine for a beginner. In the future, one may replace the dynamic bent row with power cleans to improve speed-strength. Traditional bodybuilding routines are but for aesthetic purposes. If a person wants to compete in bodybuilding, htat would be fine for pre-contest work. but, for athletes, programs such as the 5x5 are a smart choice.

[Skrom]

If you read the history of the 5x5, it was used as a foundational routine for NCAA teams to build strength and size to prepare them for other routines in the near future. if there's anything that backs up my claims, its the results. Again, we can go on and on about this but at the end of the days, its the results that matter.
no matter how many times you post about athletes, it's still irrelevant in this situation.

Again, I still believe that the 5x5 is a very good foundational routine for a beginner. In the future, one may replace the dynamic bent row with power cleans to improve speed-strength. Traditional bodybuilding routines are but for aesthetic purposes. If a person wants to compete in bodybuilding, htat would be fine for pre-contest work. but, for athletes, programs such as the 5x5 are a smart choice.
you kind of started off like you were going to start talking about why you think 5x5 is more appropriate for beginners than higher rep work, but then you got sidetracked.

i'll restate my position. higher rep programs are more appropriate for beginners because:
- low weight allows the lifter to learn the lifts without fear of injury.
- high reps give the lifter more practice with each lift.
- it is easier for most people to build a solid base in mass using higher reps. most people who are just starting to lift have very little muscle, and therefore very little potential for strength.

that's the gist of it. now you state your position, and we will have a relatively intelligent discussion about this particular topic and nothing else.

[TheMachine]

no matter how many times you post about athletes, it's still irrelevant in this situation.


you kind of started off like you were going to start talking about why you think 5x5 is more appropriate for beginners than higher rep work, but then you got sidetracked.

i'll restate my position. higher rep programs are more appropriate for beginners because:
- low weight allows the lifter to learn the lifts without fear of injury.
- high reps give the lifter more practice with each lift.
- it is easier for most people to build a solid base in mass using higher reps. most people who are just starting to lift have very little muscle, and therefore very little potential for strength.

that's the gist of it. now you state your position, and we will have a relatively intelligent discussion about this particular topic and nothing else.


the 5x5 is idea because:

lower reps prevernt form breakdown when fatigue starts to build in. 5 reps is ideal since it borrders the threshold of fatigue.

The constant adding of 5 lbs per weeek then deloading makes people add at least 25 lbs to their previous starting weight by around 6 weeks ad we all know that progressive overload build muscle and strength. our aim is to get beginners as stong and as muscular as possible to prepare them for other training phases which are more physically demanding.

The 5x5 was build as foundational routine for the off-season when one builds a strength and conditioning foundation and if a competitive athlete, to work on fundamentals and weak pints in his game

high rep training wuld be more ideal once a good foundation of strength is built since the pain threshold is already somewhat developed.

most coaches neglect the importance of off season trainining, its sad but true.

[Skrom]

the 5x5 is idea because:

1. lower reps prevernt form breakdown when fatigue starts to build in. 5 reps is ideal since it borrders the threshold of fatigue.

2. The constant adding of 5 lbs per weeek then deloading makes people add at least 25 lbs to their previous starting weight by around 6 weeks ad we all know that progressive overload build muscle and strength. our aim is to get beginners as stong and as muscular as possible to prepare them for other training phases which are more physically demanding.

3. The 5x5 was build as foundational routine for the off-season when one builds a strength and conditioning foundation and if a competitive athlete, to work on fundamentals and weak pints in his game

4. high rep training wuld be more ideal once a good foundation of strength is built since the pain threshold is already somewhat developed.

most coaches neglect the importance of off season trainining, its sad but true.
1. the only way lower reps would prevent form breakdown would be if the weight was also light, which defeats the purpose of low reps. yeah, it prevents the buildup of fatigue, but if you're not comfortable with the lift at light weight, you won't be comfortable with it with heavy weight. what's the point of preventing fatigue if you can't do a good solid rep to begin with?

2. progressive overload is not exclusive to 5x5.

3. again, i am not doubting the effectiveness of 5x5 with athletes. we are talking about a complete beginner here, not an athlete.

4. i don't see how higher reps are more effective for more experienced lifters. a beginner's 10 rm is going to be fairly close to their 1 rm, whereas a more experienced lifter's 10 rm is going to be further away from his 1 rm. neural efficiency along with good technique. so how is it that the experienced lifter is going to benefit from it more than the beginner, when they're not even working anywhere near their 1 rm?

[TheMachine]

1. the only way lower reps would prevent form breakdown would be if the weight was also light, which defeats the purpose of low reps. yeah, it prevents the buildup of fatigue, but if you're not comfortable with the lift at light weight, you won't be comfortable with it with heavy weight. what's the point of preventing fatigue if you can't do a good solid rep to begin with?

2. progressive overload is not exclusive to 5x5.

3. again, i am not doubting the effectiveness of 5x5 with athletes. we are talking about a complete beginner here, not an athlete.

4. i don't see how higher reps are more effective for more experienced lifters. a beginner's 10 rm is going to be fairly close to their 1 rm, whereas a more experienced lifter's 10 rm is going to be further away from his 1 rm. neural efficiency along with good technique. so how is it that the experienced lifter is going to benefit from it more than the beginner, when they're not even working anywhere near their 1 rm?


A person usually start with roughly 60% of their 1rm or a better way is gettng their 5rm. If you go to the website, there's a spreadsheet there so after getting one's 5rm, you can input it into the spreadsheet and the numbers will be calculated for you. I know yu are skeptic of the 5x5, I hav started using the Bill Starr version only this year since I also used something similar to what you would recommend. Aftr seeing how it made at least 30 guys numbers increase 25-40% in just a few months of training, I became a believer. And most of thse guys could barely even squat 100 lbs when they were starting a few months back. Last night, a guy who could only squat 95 lbs suddenly was doing 145 and it looked very easy.

about the higher rep issue, I have a different take as beginners form is not yet textbook as we all know and when fatigue sets in, form breakdown occurs. That is why i prefer to keep the reps low and just bump up the sets so they can stay as fresh as possible and practice more while staying fresh as possible. Ironically, even some martial arts classes do this when they are practicing a technique, a lot of sets and keeping the reps low so you can maintain good form since any knowledgeable guy who trains knows that form is at the top of the list in terms of importance.

I know that we're also dealing with a newbie here so don't worry i know exactly how to handle this :) I am also a martial artist and have been practicing since I was in high shcool and now I've alredy working for several years. Teens have the biggest case of weight training ADD, so the best thing to do is to make someone get results to make them stick to a program. Also, putting them on the basic compound free weight exercises which the 5x5 does will bring them a long way in preparing for their future endeavors. If one wants to become a powerlifter or an athlete, they have already built a good foundation, same goes if one wants to become a bodybuilder.

[Skrom]

1. A person usually start with roughly 60% of their 1rm or a better way is gettng their 5rm. If you go to the website, there's a spreadsheet there so after getting one's 5rm, you can input it into the spreadsheet and the numbers will be calculated for you. I know yu are skeptic of the 5x5, I hav started using the Bill Starr version only this year since I also used something similar to what you would recommend. Aftr seeing how it made at least 30 guys numbers increase 25-40% in just a few months of training, I became a believer. And most of thse guys could barely even squat 100 lbs when they were starting a few months back. Last night, a guy who could only squat 95 lbs suddenly was doing 145 and it looked very easy.

2. about the higher rep issue, I have a different take as beginners form is not yet textbook as we all know and when fatigue sets in, form breakdown occurs. That is why i prefer to keep the reps low and just bump up the sets so they can stay as fresh as possible and practice more while staying fresh as possible. Ironically, even some martial arts classes do this when they are practicing a technique, a lot of sets and keeping the reps low so you can maintain good form since any knowledgeable guy who trains knows that form is at the top of the list in terms of importance.

3. I know that we're also dealing with a newbie here so don't worry i know exactly how to handle this :) I am also a martial artist and have been practicing since I was in high shcool and now I've alredy working for several years. Teens have the biggest case of weight training ADD, so the best thing to do is to make someone get results to make them stick to a program. Also, putting them on the basic compound free weight exercises which the 5x5 does will bring them a long way in preparing for their future endeavors. If one wants to become a powerlifter or an athlete, they have already built a good foundation, same goes if one wants to become a bodybuilder.
1. personal experience. i can give you a bunch of stories about how many new people i've seen make improvements with high rep programs, and we won't get anywhere.

2. so you're advocating using low reps with low weight? that's cool i guess, but i don't remember you saying anything about that earlier in the thread. if you're talking about low reps with high weight, i already said why i didn't agree with that.

3. more personal experience. also, the last sentence makes very little sense. do you think that muscle built on a higher rep program doesn't count as real muscle or something? it's easier for beginners to make gains with high reps anyway, so i don't see why you would try to force the use of 5x5 early on instead of saving it for a more appropriate time (like when the trainee is not a complete beginner anymore).

[TheMachine]

1. personal experience. i can give you a bunch of stories about how many new people i've seen make improvements with high rep programs, and we won't get anywhere.

2. so you're advocating using low reps with low weight? that's cool i guess, but i don't remember you saying anything about that earlier in the thread. if you're talking about low reps with high weight, i already said why i didn't agree with that.

3. more personal experience. also, the last sentence makes very little sense. do you think that muscle built on a higher rep program doesn't count as real muscle or something? it's easier for beginners to make gains with high reps anyway, so i don't see why you would try to force the use of 5x5 early on instead of saving it for a more appropriate time (like when the trainee is not a complete beginner anymore).


I never said that muscle built on a higher rep program isn't real muscle, I only prefer using the 5x5 since it makes a trainee stronger and faster in the shortst amount of time. The total tonnage is the secret in this workout apart form all the basics such as progressive overload and deloading.

If you have any questions of the effectivity of the 5x5, do a search on its history and you'll see that it has been the staple of many high school and college programs for off season strength and conditioning. I always say, at the end of the day, its the results that mtter and if the results I have posted and seen with my own eyes aren't enough, then I don't know what is.

[Skrom]

I never said that muscle built on a higher rep program isn't real muscle, I only prefer using the 5x5 since it makes a trainee stronger and faster in the shortst amount of time. The total tonnage is the secret in this workout apart form all the basics such as progressive overload and deloading.

If you have any questions of the effectivity of the 5x5, do a search on its history and you'll see that it has been the staple of many high school and college programs for off season strength and conditioning. I always say, at the end of the day, its the results that mtter and if the results I have posted and seen with my own eyes aren't enough, then I don't know what is.
see, the thing is, i've explained why i think that high rep programs are more effective for beginners (meaning they'll get bigger and stronger faster), and you haven't addressed any of my points. you just keep saying that 5x5 is better without saying why.

then you go and start talking about how effective 5x5 is for off season athletes...we're not talking about off season athletes. i'll say it again: i don't doubt the effectiveness of 5x5. i just don't think that it's appropriate for a complete beginner.

[TheMachine]

see, the thing is, i've explained why i think that high rep programs are more effective for beginners (meaning they'll get bigger and stronger faster), and you haven't addressed any of my points. you just keep saying that 5x5 is better without saying why.

then you go and start talking about how effective 5x5 is for off season athletes...we're not talking about off season athletes. i'll say it again: i don't doubt the effectiveness of 5x5. i just don't think that it's appropriate for a complete beginner.

I've said it directly and indirectly, beginners need to work on thier form which is why low rep, moderate set workouts ar ideal for them. If you don't think 5x5 is ideal for a beginner, its your opinion. I still believe beginners should focus on the basic compound movements using free weights rather than single joint movements and machines.

[Skrom]

I still believe beginners should focus on the basic compound movements using free weights rather than single joint movements and machines.
are you joking? where did you get that one?

[TheMachine]

are you joking? where did you get that one?

"Supertraining" and "facts and Fallacies of fitness" by Dr. Mel Siff Phd.
"Functional training for sports" Michael Boyle
"brawn" "beyond brawn" Stuart Mcrobert
"The strongest shall survive" bill starr
"The New rules of Lifting" Alwyn Cosgrove and Lou Schuler

I can go on and on and cite sources that compound free weight exercises are most relevant in training a beginner... You can even ask any knowledgeable CSCS and you will get the answer

I rest my case.

[Skrom]

no, i mean where did you get the idea that by "higher rep training" i meant "isolated and machine lifts only"? because i don't recall writing anything even remotely along those lines.

[TheMachine]

no, i mean where did you get the idea that by "higher rep training" i meant "isolated and machine lifts only"? because i don't recall writing anything even remotely along those lines.

I just said that since we have been exchanging jabs for the past days, as long as a program is built around basic free weight compound movements, that would be fine. Though I personally still prefer lower reps and moderate sets

Your take may be due to where you get your training info and your training influence

[Skrom]

funny, because it didn't seem that way based on the way you worded it. i won't bother with it though.

well i've stated my case more than once. you have yet to address my points, and it doesn't look like you're going to. as it is, we're just going around in circles. maybe it would be best to just let this die.

[TheMachine]

funny, because it didn't seem that way based on the way you worded it. i won't bother with it though.

well i've stated my case more than once. you have yet to address my points, and it doesn't look like you're going to. as it is, we're just going around in circles. maybe it would be best to just let this die.

I already stated my point, if you didn't get the answer you wanted, perhaps its due to 2 things:

you didn't ask the right question
you didn't read it between the lines

Anyway,let's let the kid decide but lets hope he follows a good basic program

[Skrom]

funny, because reading through your posts, all i saw was talk of off-season athletes. i still don't think you addressed my points there, but i'll admit that looking through your posts for relevant information is like searching for a needle in a haystack.

i agree though, let the OP decide. i doubt he's even reading this thread anymore.