Taking Offense

[watto86]

Before I get down to business. I'd just like to explain myself and where i'm coming from, so you can all better understand what i'm getting at and why i'm saying it.

A year or so back, there was a show on TV here in Australia, where a man went to prominent Christian areas (particularly in the USA), door knocking in a Jehova's Witness or Mormon-esque manner. Only rather than preaching God, Jesus, Salvation, etc. He was promoting atheism, big bang theory, evolution/Charles Darwin, etc. Needless to say, the Christians that he talked to were less than impressed.
Now although he most likely did this to get a reaction like the one he received. Now that, coupled with other things (evangelism thread on MAP) got me thinking. Pretty much every Christian i've ever talked to about philosophy, beliefs, science, or anything in that realm has been offended by me saying that I am an atheist and disagree with them, after they've asked me questions that got those answers in the first place. It is because of such experiences from myself and other atheist friends of mine that I have the following question.
Because (at least some) Christians or other relgions even are offended (or at least can be offended) by atheism, especially overt forms of it, subsequently, they may (or will) complain about it. So my question is. Because they are allowed to be openly offended by atheism, are atheists allowed to be openly offended by overt forms of Christianity, including but not limited to Evangelism, talking down/bad mouthing atheism, religious justification, etc?

But before I get any people thinking that i'm just trolling. I would like you to know that this is genuinely what I think/wonder, and I would like to get peoples opinions on the matter.

[dbmasters]

I am a Christian person and am not in the least offended by other religions, or lack of them...I would suggest people that are "offended" by these things are likely on shaky ground with their own beliefs, or, are radical extremists of it.

That said, it seems to me and my experience, I have seen more people be offended by the meer mention of God or Christianty, even in a non-preaching manner...I have seen soooo often people just say that they are a Christian and they are immediately labelled "bible bangers"...which suggests to me offense is taken.

[Gary]

Kind of reminds me of this (http://www.haywireplanet.co.nz/movie.dtl.php?id=421) clip.

Some people take things like religion very seriously, other people less so. Although I don't personally have any religous beliefs, it's important to understand that a lot of people do take it very seriously. Often religion is a strong part of a persons identity, in these cases arguing against their beliefs can be close to personal insult. For those of us who don't identify with religion as much for whatever reason, their reactions can seem over the top, but to them it will be a fair response to a serious attack on their identity. Obviously this is a worst case example, but a lot of people with religous beliefs will feel the same things to a degree. For this reason respecting someones beliefs is important, even if they clash with your own. Disrespect of anothers belief will more often lower other peoples respect for your own beliefs for exactly this reason.

[s7il7s]

Thats a pretty interesting point actually. I'm Christian-Protestant, but i'm not at all offended by you believing, or not in this case, in something different. I guess its the case of actually believing in something vs not believing, rather than atheism just filling the space of "Faith", if you understand.

Because it isn't actually a religion, persay, more like a school of thought, then atheists (technically) have no reason to be offended by theism because they simply aren't placing themselves on the same level. In the same way, two different religions and its followers might become offended by another religion because obviously they may have different creation stories and different divine entities, but fundamentally, they are both the same kind of mind set, whereas atheism i would say is different and not open to having a problem with other peoples beliefs.

[MusashiUeshiba]

i for one think that there is a big problem with people as a whole being open to other peoples beliefs...and learning from them...i do not believe in one truth when it comes to religion they are all to be studied an respected for what they are...to me christianity (mostly baptist IN MY EXPERIENCE)are not tolerant at all to say a hindu or buddhist...and mock religions that do not worship there lord and god....but i do love all religions and study all very much......no matter how intolerant someone is towards your beliefs you must remain open to theirs because if you do not then ultimatly you become just as close minded as them.....GOD MADE MAN AND MAN MADE RELIGION:)

[slipthejab]

I think most people just get tired of internet atheists. :D

The amount of threads started by atheists are laughable. The do more advertising for Christianity than the religious ones could hope to achieve.

I rarely if ever have run across Christians who are as obnoxious and arrogant as many of the atheists that I see posting on forums and I certainly haven't run across any that are 'offended' by atheists... unless you're referring to the bad reaction to the obnoxious style that so many atheists seem to have. :p

Some people take their religion seriously... if so leave them be... I've never see any atheist even come close to converting a Christian... so in essence all they're doing is jizzing in their own pockets with all the attempts. ;)

[WatchfulAbyss]

I think anyone has the right to get offended, if, something offensive is said. Goes without saying really. I don't mind talking about this stuff on forums, but, I "refuse" to talk about it with friends, relatives or instructors. I have actually quit a school in my home town before; he wouldn't leave me alone about it, even after I told him that I didn't want to discuss it.

I avoid these conversation like the plague. I just think it's to easy to become offensive, even without meaning to, on either end. So, I just try not to do it......

[kickgirl]

I think anyone has the right to get offended, if, something offensive is said. Goes without saying really. I don't mind talking about this stuff on forums, but, I "refuse" to talk about it with friends, relatives or instructors. I have actually quit a school in my home town before; he wouldn't leave me alone about it, even after I told him that I didn't want to discuss it.

I avoid these conversation like the plague. I just think it's to easy to become offensive, even without meaning to, on either end. So, I just try not to do it......
What is it with schools and professors feeling the need to push their personal agendas?? In an english 101 class i had to butt heads on a professor who constantly pontificated her personal beliefs on God constantly, and I'm a christian!!! However, even though I am christian I respect that not all people are interested in christianity, and I very bluntly made the point to this woman out loud in class that we were there for english 101 not theology and not everyone in the class wants to be preached to every day. It's like she was trying to use her class as her personal podium to push her agendas and I have no respect for that.

[WatchfulAbyss]

What is it with schools and professors feeling the need to push their personal agendas?? In an english 101 class i had to butt heads on a professor who constantly pontificated her personal beliefs on God constantly, and I'm a christian!!! However, even though I am christian I respect that not all people are interested in christianity, and I very bluntly made the point to this woman out loud in class that we were there for english 101 not theology and not everyone in the class wants to be preached to every day. It's like she was trying to use her class as her personal podium to push her agendas and I have no respect for that.

I don't know why people do it. But, it's definitely uncalled for......

[MusashiUeshiba]

just love thy neighbor which i think people of all beliefs in general have a problem with.....dont judge a whole belief structure based on a few of there followers extremism...atheist,muslim,hindu,christian judge live an love eachother....i think that the most important thing that anyone of any faith can understand is that there is no one truth when it comes to religion,people should be judge on the actions that they show in everyday life an how they treat other people and the positivity they offer to our society (the world)....religions are all trying to teach the samre thing it just comes out in many differnt forms that is why it is great cause if you dont learn what you need to learn from judeism then you got biddhism or christianity.....i believe that god put all religion here to be worshipped and there is not 1 right or wrong.....RESPECT it is not just religious people who have a problem with that

[greenlantern]

I think most people just get tired of internet atheists. :D

The amount of threads started by atheists are laughable. The do more advertising for Christianity than the religious ones could hope to achieve.

I rarely if ever have run across Christians who are as obnoxious and arrogant as many of the atheists that I see posting on forums and I certainly haven't run across any that are 'offended' by atheists... unless you're referring to the bad reaction to the obnoxious style that so many atheists seem to have. :p

Some people take their religion seriously... if so leave them be... I've never see any atheist even come close to converting a Christian... so in essence all they're doing is jizzing in their own pockets with all the attempts. ;)

You're kidding right?

As far as converting people in to an atheist goes it's not necessary the smart one's eventually evolve into atheist.

It goes to reason with all the different religions in the world, past and present, everyone can't be right but everyone can be wrong.

[MusashiUeshiba]

it is true athiest have converted many religious people there have been cathlics of the highest rank in the vatican that admitted on their death bed they were atheist there whole life.that was amazing when i read acounts of that

[kickgirl]

As far as converting people in to an atheist goes it's not necessary the smart one's eventually evolve into atheist.
My 160 IQ begs to differ, I'm still christian :)

[Dragon Brush]

I'm a Christian, but I find that most people of my religion like to perpetuate the stereotype of the "typical Christian" by pushing their beliefs on others. My mother is like that, hardcore. :eek:

[kickgirl]

I'm a Christian, but I find that most people of my religion like to perpetuate the stereotype of the "typical Christian" by pushing their beliefs on others. My mother is like that, hardcore. :eek:
It's crazy how narrow people can be isn't it, take for instance another hot topic for many fundamentalist christians....reincarnation <----that's the devil according to alot of folks even though Jesus says that John the baptist had the spirit of the prophet Elijah :cool:

[WatchfulAbyss]

MusashiUeshiba
just love thy neighbor which i think people of all beliefs in general have a problem with.....dont judge a whole belief structure based on a few of there followers extremism...atheist,muslim,hindu,christian judge live an love eachother....i think that the most important thing that anyone of any faith can understand is that there is no one truth when it comes to religion,people should be judge on the actions that they show in everyday life an how they treat other people and the positivity they offer to our society (the world)....religions are all trying to teach the samre thing it just comes out in many differnt forms that is why it is great cause if you dont learn what you need to learn from judeism then you got biddhism or christianity.....i believe that god put all religion here to be worshipped and there is not 1 right or wrong.....RESPECT it is not just religious people who have a problem with that


Respect, or shoud I say "a lack there of" is a in general type problem.........




greenlantern

You're kidding right?

As far as converting people in to an atheist goes it's not necessary the smart one's eventually evolve into atheist.



As a weak atheist myself. I can say, that, not only is this not "true" but there are alot of "dumb" as well as "ignorant"; self-righteous, egotistical self surving slime, that go by atheist. Just like there is intelligence on both sides. It's not all about the title. The cretins hang out in any group they can.......(IMHO)


It goes to reason with all the different religions in the world, past and present, everyone can't be right but everyone can be wrong.

Depends on how broad you take the terms........ :D

[greenlantern]

My 160 IQ begs to differ, I'm still christian :)

160 IQ should allow you to evolve eventually.

[kickgirl]

160 IQ should allow you to evolve eventually.
When I evolve I'll be way cooler than an Atheist, I'll be cat woman!!! :p

[greenlantern]

When I evolve I'll be way cooler than an Atheist, I'll be cat woman!!! :p

:D In the tight leather suit? hopefully.

[kickgirl]

I must have tiger stripes for my suit...that's taking a while

[Thelistmaker]

My 160 IQ begs to differ, I'm still christian :)

You go girl :cool:
but intelligence doesn't always = common sense, a prime example was the supposed genius Ted Kaczynski the unabomer

[kickgirl]

You go girl :cool:
but intelligence doesn't always = common sense, a prime example was the supposed genius Ted Kaczynski the unabomer
And that's why i'm evolving into cat woman, everyone knows cats have sense :cool:

[Davey Bones]

Because (at least some) Christians or other relgions even are offended (or at least can be offended) by atheism, especially overt forms of it, subsequently, they may (or will) complain about it. So my question is. Because they are allowed to be openly offended by atheism, are atheists allowed to be openly offended by overt forms of Christianity, including but not limited to Evangelism, talking down/bad mouthing atheism, religious justification, etc?

No, I have to agree with slip. Many atheists follow the same fallacious logic.

They cannot accept anyone else's terms but theirs.

Many of them are not nearly as well-read on the subject of religion as they claim; some go so far as to make blatant mis-quotes to prove thier points.

They constantly tirade on the evils of religion every chance they get.

Shall I continue, since this is especially prevalent here on MAP? Go look around the religion forum; far too many threads have been started by so-called "atheists" and pseudo-intellectuals who usually miss the point completely.

[Thelistmaker]

And that's why i'm evolving into cat woman, everyone knows cats have sense :cool:

:cool: cool indeed, if anyone tries to evolve into a pikachu will you help me hunt them down for the good of humanity

[greenlantern]

No, I have to agree with slip. Many atheists follow the same fallacious logic.

They cannot accept anyone else's terms but theirs.

Many of them are not nearly as well-read on the subject of religion as they claim; some go so far as to make blatant mis-quotes to prove thier points.

They constantly tirade on the evils of religion every chance they get.

Shall I continue, since this is especially prevalent here on MAP? Go look around the religion forum; far too many threads have been started by so-called "atheists" and pseudo-intellectuals who usually miss the point completely.

Just curious, how well read in religion do you need to be in order to be an atheist? I thought it was a belief just like christianity, buddist, or any other religion (or lack of).

Fallacious logic? That's funny.

[kickgirl]

Just curious, how well read in religion do you need to be in order to be an atheist? I thought it was a belief just like christianity, buddist, or any other religion (or lack of).

Fallacious logic? That's funny.
While I don't believe you need to be well versed in christianity or any other religion to be atheist, a person should not pretend to be a theology intellectual if that is the case. I know exactly what the poster you quoted was talking about and it just makes for silly arguments.

[Gary]

Just curious, how well read in religion do you need to be in order to be an atheist? I thought it was a belief just like christianity, buddist, or any other religion (or lack of).

Fallacious logic? That's funny.
You don't need to read any religous text to be an atheist. As soon as you want to critisize religion, or anything for that matter, it helps if you actually know what you're criticizing.

[Davey Bones]

Just curious, how well read in religion do you need to be in order to be an atheist? I thought it was a belief just like christianity, buddist, or any other religion (or lack of).

Fallacious logic? That's funny.

I have seen posters on MAP take quotes out of context and claim the author of said quote supported a position they never did. That's intellectual dishonesty.

I have seen people make assumptions and leaps which are completely fallacious, yet when you try to explain "why", they attempt to change the parameters of the discussion to suit them.

If you're going to post quotes or claim "Christians" believe in "XY&Z", you better damn well be able to support your position, and do it honestly. Period.

[slipthejab]

Just curious, how well read in religion do you need to be in order to be an atheist? I thought it was a belief just like christianity, buddist, or any other religion (or lack of).

Fallacious logic? That's funny.

I don't even think they need to be well read. If the ones here at MAP are anything to go by they need a 1st year college logic course and a lot of hot air.:D Oh yeah it helps if they are copious typers. :D

[tekkengod]

My 160 IQ begs to differ, I'm still christian :)

so do your irrational beliefs. ;)
oh wait, i'm in america, i'm not allowed to critisize you

heres your pass.



I for one, am not offended by the idea of individual religion, even family religion is only mildly offensive, what i AM offended by is the fact that they get to group together and evade taxation and critisizim.
I'm offended by the fact that they have an idea immune to logic, but try to defend it using logic. that anything we can find in their special book of talking animals and global floods that is contradictive or not promoting their pov is instantly and without a seconds thought "out of context,misquoted,misunderstood" you will never, ever find a quote or passage that is to the athesitic pov that will be allowed admission as valid. ever.

[Aikikai Novice]

Lots of athiests claim that they're harassed to one degree or another by religious people, and I can't say that I've never seen it happen EVER, but I'm from Oregon, and on the west coast it's generally the other way around.

For example, my wife's ex-boyfriend once left a room because she was singing "lean on me" and he THOUGHT it was a "Christian" song.

That kind of hypersensitivity is the norm around here, and the standard faith is humanism. If the athiest "intellectuals" catch wind of any beliefs that go against their church of athiesm, then let the scoffing begin.

In high school, people would question or challenge my faith and world view, and as I would calmly try to point and counterpoint, the people I was talking to would become indignant, even as I was the one being pressured.

But I swear I never said, "YOU HAVE TO such and such, OR BE DAMNED." I'd just give an answer for, "How could a loving, all powerfull God possibly allow the existence of suffering? Why would he create man, anyway?" And four minutes later, I'm a "self-righteous bible thumper."

[tekkengod]

But I swear I never said, "YOU HAVE TO such and such, OR BE DAMNED." I'd just give an answer for, "How could a loving, all powerfull God possibly allow the existence of suffering? Why would he create man, anyway?" And four minutes later, I'm a "self-righteous bible thumper."

read my above post.
Thats what offends me that kind of thought process. to think you can fabricate a feasible answer to a question like that, suggests that you understand something about the nature of logical immunity that we don't. the idea of god and his moral.ect is metaphysical by any stretch and to claim to have an answer to a question like that means you think you understand the morality, which you don't. because as all theists like to point out, the idea of god is beyond or comprehension, thats what i mean. and yeah, that'd make you a bible thumper, as in case, your only possible refrence for any attempt at a grasp of your god's morality is in your special book.

[Explorer]

Parties on both sides of this discussion are guilty of not respecting the free will of those they disagree with.

Perhaps the first thing my Christain friends should do when involved in discussions such as these is offer the same charity they believe God shows us ... unless you don't believe in free will, I guess. One of Christianity's claims is a loving God bent on communion with his/her creation. A little of that kind of love would go a long way toward not treating athiests in a less than Christian fashion.

My athiest friends might keep in mind that not all Christians have ceased to use their brains. There are folks out there that are more than willing to discuss the issue without condemming you to hell. As a matter of fact you might find some of them actually interesting to engage.

Both groups would do well to remember that we all want to live in civilized societies. On that point Christians and Athiests generally agree.

Of course, if you don't want to live in a civilized society ... forget everything I said.

[Aikikai Novice]

But Tekkengod, as a Christian I believe in the truth of the Bible, but also that too much emphasis is placed on it in some ways. Our guesses as to "our God's morality" stem primarily from human nature.

I mean, look at Taoism. Read the Tao Te Ching. It's practically the exact same ethics system. And Christians in America are (on average) lousy, pathetic, worldly examples compared to the disciples in countries like China, where few Christians even have Bibles. All of the greatest servents of God in the Bible stories came to know God without the Bible as we know it. So, although there are many obnoxious examples one could find for someone demanding that you "READ THE BIBLE!" the key to Christianity and our faith lies not solely in our "special book." I don't believe that a person strictly needs to have a Bible to have a personal relationship with God. After all, it doesn't really say that in the Bible.

Aside from that, attempts at answering difficult philosophical/theological questions shouldn't be offensive; it's just the application of logic to things we assume are true due to what we perceive. Athiests do the same thing.

Athiests assume the existence of the universe in which they find themselves and nothing else, and apply logic to discern things they don't observe directly.

Well, for varied reasons Christians believe in Something Higher that is like them is some ways. The attempts to answer those difficult questions are just the appplication of logic to form a coherent whole out of what we assume to be true.

So heck, if someone asks us and we give the best answer we got, it's kinda' silly to be offended by it.

[tekkengod]

But Tekkengod, as a Christian I believe in the truth of the Bible, but also that too much emphasis is placed on it in some ways. Our guesses as to "our God's morality" stem primarily from human nature.

I mean, look at Taoism. Read the Tao Te Ching. It's practically the exact same ethics system. And Christians in America are (on average) lousy, pathetic, worldly examples compared to the disciples in countries like China, where few Christians even have Bibles. All of the greatest servents of God in the Bible stories came to know God without the Bible as we know it. So, although there are many obnoxious examples one could find for someone demanding that you "READ THE BIBLE!" the key to Christianity and our faith lies not solely in our "special book." I don't believe that a person strictly needs to have a Bible to have a personal relationship with God. After all, it doesn't really say that in the Bible.

Aside from that, attempts at answering difficult philosophical/theological questions shouldn't be offensive; it's just the application of logic to things we assume are true due to what we perceive. Athiests do the same thing.

Athiests assume the existence of the universe in which they find themselves and nothing else, and apply logic to discern things they don't observe directly.

Well, for varied reasons Christians believe in Something Higher that is like them is some ways. The attempts to answer those difficult questions are just the appplication of logic to form a coherent whole out of what we assume to be true.

So heck, if someone asks us and we give the best answer we got, it's kinda' silly to be offended by it.

ok, you have the right to believe in the bible, that doesn't make it true though does it? thats a debate for another time. If gods morality stems from the bible, hes an ass. if it stems from human nature, damn....that kills his validity just a little more don't you think. in either case, as theists will tell you that god is beyond our comprehension, so is his morality, and we aren't in a position to claim to know it, unless we use the bible as a measuring stick, in which case, he is one major ass.

Then i have to ask what else you would have a person do as opposed to read the bible? I think if you read the stories in the bible, it would be almost impossible to convert someone to christianity with that alone as a tool. attempts at answering theological/philosophical questions such as that are not inherintly offensive, IMO, unless they cut corners, defy logic, and have too many assumptions, at that point i have to hold back from simply pointing and laughing. In which we precieve? you can't previeve god, you can't precieve metaphysical deities, as they are just that, metaphysical. and as you people so often like to point out, beyond our comprehension. did you just say apply logic to something not observed directly? you did, so by applying logic to something you nor any other tangible valid source observed you came to the conclusion of the zombie jesus? ok then...moving on...varied reasons? i suppose i'll accept that particular choice of words for now... now there we agree, you assume alot, atheists don't assume anything. if you give the best answer you have, would i be offended? no. If you then try to pass off that answer as logical, coherent and realistic, would i be offended. Absolutely.

[medi]

The few fundementalist Christians I've spoken to weren't offended by my being an unbeliever.

If anything they were more kind of sympathetic/patronizing... like "Awww, really? You poor man, you're so lost.... yeah, I used be like you... blind..."


lol oh wellz

[watto86]

The few fundementalist Christians I've spoken to weren't offended by my being an unbeliever.

If anything they were more kind of sympathetic/patronizing... like "Awww, really? You poor man, you're so lost.... yeah, I used be like you... blind..."


lol oh wellz
I know how that goes to a degree. A good friend of mine is devout Christian (not sure of his denomination though), and used to often ask me if I was going to go to church so that my sould could be saved from damnation, and he often said that things I believed in/said were evil.


Edit: Wow. I'm surprised how many people got in here so quickly. Still. Good to see everybodies responses.