ninpo and ninjitsu?

[saikyou]

any difference between the two? just curious. :D

[pknox]

My understanding is that Dr. Hatsumi (the head of the Bujinkan, one of the major ninjitsu organizations) prefers to have the art referred to as ninpo, and this was something done a few years ago. At least part of the reason was that "ninjitsu" has become a loaded term of sorts, with many people (especially in the west) having pre-conceived, often incorrect notions about what compromises study of the ninja's art. Evidently, since Hatsumi's recommendation, some other organizations have followed suit, and also refer to their art as "ninjitsu", or occasionally, "ninjutsu."

To make things even more complex, ninpo (at least in the Bujinkan) is comprised of multiple arts, only some of which are "ninja" arts, so "ninpo" also refers to a more complete tradition. For example, the Bujinkan curriculum consists of the following arts:

Togakure Ryu Ninpo
Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu
Kuki Shinden Ryu Happo Hiken
Koto Ryu Koppojutsu
Gikan Ryu Koppo
Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu
Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo
Kumogakure Ryu Ninjutsu
Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu

Of the nine arts listed above, only 3 (Togakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, and Kumogakure Ryu) fall under the description of either ninpo or ninjutsu. The Bujinkan also refers to its art as "Budo Taijutsu."

If you are looking for a potential instructor, you are better served asking them if they are a member of the Bujinkan (or Genbukan, or Jinenkan, or some other group) than asking them if they teach "ninpo" or ninjitsu."

I hope that answers your question -- I guess it's a little more complicated than one would imagine it to be!

[saikyou]

so to make things easier to understand ninpo is more traditional than ninjitsu?

[pknox]

Not necessarily. Ninpo is a term that covers all of the arts in the system, including the ninjitsu ones. Each of the separate arts are traditional, but referring to the total package as "ninpo" is kind of a new development.

[Zamfoo]

from what i understand it's that ninjutsu is pretty much just the fighting techniques and stuff but ninpo the "higher order of ninjutsu" teaches a little more about philosophy and life. They're pretty much the same and now are just different terms for the same thing

[xplasma]

Ninjutsu is all the techniques of combat and form. Ninpo is all the aspects of the ninja. Mental and Physical.

my sensei put it very simply.

" Ninjutsu is the path up the mountain. Ninpo is the peak of the mountain and the heavens above. "

Most people can reach the top of the mountain but very few ever get further and raise above it.

[Zamfoo]

very very well said xplasma

[Duncan Mitchell]

You guys should really think seriously about asking yourselves "Am I really qualified to answer this question?" before you attempt to do so. The amount of false, inaccurate and incorrect information that is flung around on this forum is really bad. Too many people seem to be getting stuff from the internet then posting and reposting it all over the place until various bits of "information" become very hard to correct as they are so widespread.

As for the question I think you'll find that the term "ninpo" is in fact a very old one. Hatsumi-sensei has said that it probably predates the term ninjutsu. The terms are really pretty interchangeable as definitions are complex in Japanese and encompass what the person who uses a word wishes too. In the Bujinkan the term ninjutsu ”E�p is generally used to imply the techniques or methods employed where ninpo ”E–@ is the way of or the art of the ninja. Remember though that Hatsumi-sensei often uses the term "ninjutsu" where you would expect him to use ninpo and visa-versa. And remember that really it is still all Bujutsu.

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Duncan Mitchell
You guys should really think seriously about asking yourselves "Am I really qualified to answer this question?"

Who are you to make these statements? I see you sign your profile 10th dan in bujinkan so every knows. How you get your 10th dan. I have seen people get 10th dan's from Hatusmi who simply went to japan and demanded them. They there skills would even get them past Myu-kyu in Genbukan.

Who am I, I go my the handle xplasma. I study the Art Ninpo, under a student of Tanemura Sensei. I have studied for only 3 years, and hold the rank of Go-Kyu (5th-kyu). I fell that I am capable to explain to people who ask and know nothing of ninpo . In addition I ask plenty of question in hopes that others have an opinion on it. However, I never tell people that they are unqualified to answer questions. That is what this forum is for.

After talking to Kurohana and SightNightFall I see their are good poeple still left in Bujinkan. You are the example of why Bujinkan has become in some dojos, A Mikey Mouse Art, A McDojo.

You know what. I quit this conversion.

[Duncan Mitchell]

Originally posted by xplasma
Who are you to make these statements? I see you sign your profile 10th dan in bujinkan so every knows. How you get your 10th dan. I have seen people get 10th dan's from Hatusmi who simply went to japan and demanded them. They there skills would even get them past Myu-kyu in Genbukan.

In response to this semi-literate outburst ...

I have been in the Bujinkan for over 15 years now including four and a half years living and training in Japan. I travel back there every year. I was given my tenth dan at the end of last year. I don't know if I could get past Myu-Kyu (–³‹‰�@Mu-Kyu??) in the Genbukan - but at least I can spell it.

...and I have the conviction to sign my REAL NAME to my post.

[Zamfoo]

come on people stop fighting or......... take it on to the streets so people can bet :p. But seriously there is no reason to be quarrling here. I wonder what you were trying to correct Duncan, but it's not going to make me storm in and make this a semiflame thread.

[SilentNightfall]

Just an interesting note to make... As far as the schools comprising the Bujinkan go, 8 out of the 9 can trace their lineages to "ninja" schools. Only Takagi Yoshin Ryu is purely a "samurai" school. Not going to run through the connections, but you can find it posted several places in the Ninjutsu portion of the Martial Talk forums. It's great for all of you interested in the lineage of the 9 schools and such.

[ninja4u2hire]

Well said SilentNightfall, and to Duncan, if all that you state about yourself is true, then it's an honor to meet you, but please understand that there are a lot of people here just starting to learn and understand what ninjutsu is, let alone the meaning of ninpo. Being a measly Shodan, I still have much to learn, but I do know something...No one has the right to judge others.
-Tim

[Chris J.]

Hi,
Lets all just take a deep breath here.....there. Now let it out....

Now lets get real for just a moment here. Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu/Ninpo/Taijitsu/Taijutsu etc., it is all an extension of a need to fill a hole created by hype and old stories about the mysterious Ninja. The fact is, these assasins were reluctant to face an actual Samurai, because those who kept and trained Samurai could afford the best training and food, etc., for their soldiers. Ninja were often societie's rejects, bandits, criminals, expelled or failed Samurai who refused an honorable death (who can blame them). They lived in the hills and sometimes people hired them as outsiders who might attempt a dangerous assasination.

Over time they formed guilds, groups of hired mercenaries/assasins. These eventually took names that became styles, but really it was never one cohesive art, but a compilation of whatever was available and whatever experience had taught the group.

In the modern day there are no more ninja to speak strictly. There are a few people who have pieced together what they could of the old methods and these people now claim to teach this 'art'. Yes, they do teach martial skills. Yes, some of what they still remember of the older ways works and is authentic in that it represents what used to be practiced. It is therefore not worthless. I would however question its relevance in the modern world, and its authenticity; here is why.

The modern ranking system came from Judo. Prior to that, nobody had belts and Kyu or Dan levels. Occasionaly titles might be used to describe a training position such as Renshi or Kyoshi, etc. That was about it.
Later the newly created modern Karate styles in Japan agreed to encorporate the same rank system as the Judo system had used. This was in the early part of the last centure, a relatively late date.
Even today there are certain standards for high ranking. Typically a 10th. Dan is a single head of a system, and unless large organizations throughout Japan and or Okinawa recognize the system the rank would never be taken seriously. So, we must have the head of a "Ninjitsu" system right here on this list, right? Or wrong?
Does it even make any sense for such a system to award Judo-style ranks? Does anybody esle here see the problem with this? (Gee, I think it might be cool to represent myself on some international forum as a 10th Dan in Ninjitsu... OK, I must have missed the part where this made any sense at all).
I tend to resent any sort of deception or mis-representation when it comes to the martial arts. In almost 36 years I have managed a 6th. degree in ****o-Ryu, so naturally being awarded a 10th. degree in 15 years seems ridiculous to me, even apart from the dubious credentials of the style mentioned. Sorry to have vented this, but lets get real here. I can order just about any sort of diploma I want over the internet for a price. One ridiculous web site even offers a certificate of "Monk Status". It would not make me a monk, I assure you. ;)

-Chris A. Johnston

[SilentNightfall]

Wow... That's all I really have to say. No. I lied. I have a very large rant that's about to be expressed through the usage of my fingertips, and here it comes. Chris, I hate to say this to you, but your history of Ninjutsu is very much off. In fact, your history sounds much like the same hype and fabrications of the Ninja that you claim is the cause of this "need to fill a hole." Let's see if I can't run through this without being too lengthy.

First of all, the mountainous groups you refer to were the direct counterculture to that of the norm in Japan. They were seperated from the influence of those under the rule of various daimyo or the shogun (depending on the period). Because of this seperation, these people developed the methods of survival that eventually became known as Ninjutsu. This art was necessarily for their survival, particularly when someone like Nobunaga ordered for their extermination. In later years, Ninja were employed for reconnaissance missions or as advisors for war. Very rarely were they employed for the sake of assassination. The whole reason that people associate Ninja with assassinations, black pajamas, and such is mostly because of literature about them made popular in Japan and perhaps because of a few rogues who leant their services out as mercenaries.

Now then, as for the art itself, it is primarily a weapon art, which most people tend to forget, but it excels in hand-to-hand combat and is one of the most effective combat arts in the world. Arts like Judo, Brazilian Jujutsu. etc. which train for competitions or ring fighting are not considered combat arts. Why? They have rules. But let's not get into categorizations of arts. Fact is, true Ninjutsu as found in the X-kans is more than practical for combat. As far as the ranking system goes, at least in the Bujinkan, the Dan ranks go up to 15th (which no one has achieved). Hatsumi-sensei, in my humble opinion, does not need to explain his reasons for adding 5 ranks. I agree that it was to smack a few people with the humility stick so they didn't start feeling that they had learned everything there was to learn. And you wondered why Ninjutsu would use such a ranking system? My question is...why does it matter? There are quite a few 10th Dans in the Bujinkan so trying to say that no one can be one is ludicrous. But I don't blame you for your comments. They are just derived from someone who obviously has no previous experience with the X-kans, more specifically the Bujinkan in this case. But hopefully you'll at least make the effort to do a bit of research. There is enough information out there. Just do a web serach for "Bujinkan," "Genbukan," or "Jinenkan." That will give you the most results if you're looking to find out what Ninjutsu really is. Practitioners of other styles can also feel free to post direct links as web searches won't turn up many results. Good luck and jaa mata.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Thank you for your post, SilentNightfall -- what I would have liked to say, but I'm not yet knowledgeable enough to articulate it the way you did. Maybe this topic needs an article in the "Magazine" section of the forum. Heaven knows there are enough misconceptions flying around.

[SilentNightfall]

True enough. If ever I have time to submit an article I shall. I just hope that if I do it will be at least somewhat worthy of a read. Well, we shall see perhaps sometime in the very near future when I find some free time. Take care my friend.

[xplasma]

Good Job SilentNightFall. I saw that rant before and kinda laughed a little than realized I wouldn't be able to respond in less then a few hundred words, so I didn't.

Genbukan still has the only 10th dans and only 1 10th dan, Tanemura Sensei (SightNightFall I know your opinion on him, even though I very much disagree, I do respect it). But since Ninpo has left the realm of a family art, kyu level are necessary when a techer has more then a few students, to kinda track of progress, other then that kyu level mean very little.

If anyone is looking for history of Ninpo/Ninjutsu from the Genbukan view, with is probably the X-kan view. I would get up the book Ninpo Bugei Vol. 1, Fundamental Taijutsu. The book mostly has all the Genbuakn Taijustu techniques up to Shodan , but more revalant to our discussion is has a brief history of both IGA and KOGA Ninpo.

[cloudgodd]

I have been doing this ninjitsu stuff since I was 16, I am now 31, but one thing I do not get, all the belt ranking thrashing that goes on here, when we receive I guess you could say would be considered a Black belt level the only thing we received was a right to call ourselves KYO-SEI (student-Teacher) and a training name, mine happens to be TORASAME or TIGERSHARK the way, style, and elements, I use most often to fight, and I could where a hakuma to class? to show what you know was one the knowledge you posses, and the teacher who taught it to you, not your belt rank, cant really prove how much you know about fighting with a test?!?!

[ninja4u2hire]

Originally posted by cloudgodd
[B]I have been doing this ninjitsu stuff

ninjitsu stuff? ...15 years of training and you really said that.:eek:

[SilentNightfall]

Might I suggest that the few who posted and commented here on the history of Ninjutsu take a look at the thread "Ninjitsu?? really?" because the same misconception on Ninja is presented there. Just was hoping to get some comments besides my own. Basically it's the whole "Ninja were assassins" deal again. Hope to see your posts there.

[havoc123]

i know we sorta got away from the subject but from my understanding Ninpo is the base for every japanese fighting art (juijutsu, aikido ect) am i wrong to say that?

[havoc123]

Originally posted by Duncan Mitchell
In response to this semi-literate outburst ...

I have been in the Bujinkan for over 15 years now including four and a half years living and training in Japan. I travel back there every year. I was given my tenth dan at the end of last year. I don't know if I could get past Myu-Kyu (–³‹‰�@Mu-Kyu??) in the Genbukan - but at least I can spell it.

...and I have the conviction to sign my REAL NAME to my post.

Since when does spelling count for historic knowledge? or knowledge of anything aside from spelling? im sorry but that was just a pretty weak comeback

As for ur tenth dan congrats, do u want a medal or a chest to pin it on? Who cares what dan u r dan doesnt mean anything, dan is a symbol it's not supposed to show ur true skill for all we know u couldve just gone and asked for it.
My sensei told us this story of a guy who was a brown belt. He had a dissagreement with his sensei and left the school. Now bitter he went to a different school and they said "oh well since ur a brown belt in ninpo thats like being a 2nd dan here, so we'll just give u the belt and u can teach." now again he has a dissagreement with someone and leaves that school. Frustrated he makes himself i think it was 9th or 10th dan and claims he can teach ninpo.
So as for my little story's point it goes, that anyone can give themselves the belt. But what is the belt if u dont have the skill to back it up? It is nothing but a belt.
In the old days u would just have a white belt and depending on how hard u trained the more soiled it would get. The belt would change color eventually and this is where we get the kyu level. U can go out and purchase a belt but it doesnt mean that u have that skill level at all.
Also if u are a tenth dan then u r setting a pretty bad example for everyone lower than u just by rating urself by ur belt. In 15 years of ninpo i wouldve thought that wouldve learned that.

-Alex, white belt in Genbukan and damn proud of it

[SilentNightfall]

This is definitely not true. Jujutsu existed at the same time as Ninjutsu. The difference was that the samurai practiced several different forms of jujutsu as well as various sword and weapon arts while the Ninja, seperated from the rest of society, developed their own fighting techniques. That's the general gist of it.

[havoc123]

thank you for clearing the air on that Nighfall. I was just confused because in my school we also do kokusai juijutsu.

[havoc123]

ah do u think you could tell me how to edit my profile or my signature?

[SilentNightfall]

Go into the User CP, which is one of the red buttons at the top of every page and work from there.

[havoc123]

thanx

[cloudgodd]

first of lets clear the air Slient I never said it was used for assassination only that the art was full of trickery, and deception, and the ninjitsu was used as a killing art, when a Shinobi went out on a mission the object was to get from point a to point b and back to A if anything got in his way it was destoryed and quickly I might add, as not to fail his mission.

ninja4u2hire: Sorry if I offened you with my down play on words....

[SilentNightfall]

But you see Cloud, this is still where we disagree. Ninjutsu is not designed as a killing art. It is meant to be an art of survival. You must recall that whenever a Ninja had to make it from point A to point B and back, he would not kill whatever got in his way first if he could avoid such. The first tactic would be escape if discovered/pursued. To kill first would be completely against the philosophy of the Ninja. Given no other option, however, the Ninja would kill rather than be killed.

[aikijudo]

I have a question for the experts. I no nothing about ninjitsu or the ninja. I remember a couple of words I heard many, many years ago and wonder if they are real words, or if anyone can corroborate them and define them for me.

Intondudo jitsu and Kobudara. (sp?)

Anybody?

[ninja4u2hire]

It's ok Cloud... I'm just here to remind people that this isn't some YMCA Karate. Being able to train ninjutsu/ninpo is a previlege, and should be honored. I won't argue about it because ninjutsu is different for everyone. Some people are only interested in bits and pieces of ninjutsu, while others want to know everything. Both is fine. But sinse none of use where there at the begining, who's to say what's right and wrong. I appreciate people like silentnightfall, who obviously have done thier homework, and know the history, but even books and resourses can be skewed.

Just my opinion, but never forced on anyone.

[Michiel]

For the people in this forum spending time fighting over who is right, 10th dan or myu-kyu.... if you are 10th dan, if you are 5th kyu, genbukan or Bujinkan (hailing from the same ancestors) then please, use that energy to share and study. keep playing

[Keikai]

To Josh and Duncan,

I think you are sometimes fighting a losing battle with the kids on here, one person, mentioning no names is only 18 but seems to have the conviction to contradict you (although they have now took their age off there profile) its good to see high ranking dans on here giving some useful info out instead of some kid trying his hardest to look big and knowledgable, i bet their teacher would give them a good spanking if he knew they were talking to you like that, and yes gents, grade do matter! they are not given if they are demanded and they still know more than 5th kyu's out there!

[MattKing]

Ah i forgot age makes everything in this world doesnt it? Im 17 but i think ive got the determinationa and patience to learn as much as anyone else here! As to an 18 year old contradicting someone... so what? if they've been studying the last 13 years or whatever than they probably know a good deal and so why cant they put their view up!?!

[xplasma]

Ah i forgot age makes everything in this world doesnt it? Im 17 but i think ive got the determinationa and patience to learn as much as anyone else here! As to an 18 year old contradicting someone... so what? if they've been studying the last 13 years or whatever than they probably know a good deal and so why cant they put their view up!?! Matt, don't respond to Mr Chapman. I think he said he is 31, so he feel that means hima n authority. It ok, considering all he has done since he has arrived on the board, is insult people, especially Michael. Michael I envy you for your patience in dealing with such a hateful person like Mr. Chapman. It would be ok if Mr. Chapman has posted any information that has been helpful to training, but he hasn't. Personally, I am glad he is gone and I hope your child will not grow up like you.

[kewlguy53403]

OK.. back to the drawing board on this one...so what physical techniques does ninpo / ninjitsu teach? What would someone have to gain by learning it as opposed to another respectful art?

[xplasma]

I have a question for the experts. I no nothing about ninjitsu or the ninja. I remember a couple of words I heard many, many years ago and wonder if they are real words, or if anyone can corroborate them and define them for me.

Intondudo jitsu and Kobudara. (sp?)

Anybody?
Iton-jutsu - "Escape and concealment from danger " or "Special disappearing techniques"

[xplasma]

OK.. back to the drawing board on this one...so what physical techniques does ninpo / ninjitsu teach? What would someone have to gain by learning it as opposed to another respectful art?
Ninpo is known for it evasion skills. Rolling, falling, leaping, etc. We emphasis those. Ninpo doesn't believe in blocking, rather we believe in footwork to evade the punch.

After that counter striking aimed at destroying the enemies muscles. Then throws designed to break the enemies shoulder and neck.

If you think of your enemy's body as a castle, then their arms and legs are their armies. Destroy the enemy's armies, then you can choose to take the castle.

[SilentNightfall]

OK.. back to the drawing board on this one...so what physical techniques does ninpo / ninjitsu teach? What would someone have to gain by learning it as opposed to another respectful art?

The one aspect of Ninjutsu that gives it an advantage over most other arts is that it trains in every aspect of fighting and for different situations. We train strikes, which include various punches/fists and kicks, grappling, which includes joint locks and the like, throwing, ground fighting, weapons, which includes how to defend against various weapons and how to use them, ukemi, which includes rolling, breakfalling, etc., and many other areas. We also train for multiple attackers, both armed and unarmed, how to fight with limited space, what to do when attacked while sitting, and many other different situations similar to what I have mentioned. You must remember that Ninjutsu was formed from over 1,000 years of battlefield experience. It is not a sport art, but a combat art in which survival is key. It will not have you spar or be placed in competitions where certain moves (eye gouging, use of nails, etc.) are prohibited. Ninjutsu will teach you how use every tool you have to survive any encounter that may arise in your life. It's methods are also based on natural movements and so extreme flexibility and such is not required. The art adapts to you and this is something that you will not find in other martial arts where you are basically forced to learn moves that may be inappropriate for your body type. In Ninjutsu, you will make the art yours and it will adapt to how you are built and such. This is, perhaps, the most beautiful thing about what we do. Just my two yen, which I give a lot. ;) Hope it helps. Ja, mata!

[Zamfoo]

Very well put Silent and xplasma. Not sure I've experienced any inappropiate moves. It's just that kinda art. You can tell survival was big for the creators of Ninpo. Sword evasion and rolls. As my sensei says the first rule of the ninja is to get out of the way. Then you have the choice to kill, maim, or just run away. Very open art.