Why do we keep our hands out?

[Knight_Errant]

In all the kata that I've done, after punching, the hand is left right out in front of me. However, I am reliably informed that to leave your hand out like this leaves you in a vulnerable position. It stands to reason that you should be practicing getting that hand in afterwards. In sparring, we do get our hands back in straight away.
So I would like to ask, why do we do this? Why train one way and fight another?

[johndoch]

IMHO Its a technique for learning posture and form

[WhiteWizard]

this kinda goes along with all the kata or not to kata stuff this is why people dislike the practice IMO

[Knight_Errant]

It's not only done in kata though- kihon as well

[stump]

Its about striking a pose and looking good! It also makes it easier to judge a large number of people from a distance so you don't have to give everyone individual attention....helpful in a large class

[Em-em]

It;s for the basics. You're mastering the form, I think

[David]

I've mentioned my take on hands-out to KE earlier on chat.

Whilst I accept the other explanations, it would be a shame if some part of kata didn't translate into self-defence.

We use some extended postures in kungfu to draw the opponent into contact. We hold the hands out with a feeling energy, soft, waiting for the trigger of an attack to set them off.

Most karate I've seen ignores the possibilites of prolonged/invited contact but I have seen one guy (can't remember the style but it was all softness, small circles, ki etc) who had the feeling hand principle in his karate.

But, maybe it's just a beginner keep the class under control method.

Rgds,
David

[Kof_Andy]

I have no idea who started that idea, but is dumb. Yes form is abouting training your posture, cordination, learning basic, and timing etc, but theres no point to learn bad fighting posture like leave your punch out there then kick. For me I always kick in fighting stance in my form, my punch is always pull back after. And no leaving your punch out there does not look good, is too mechanic. Make sure you keep in my mind to train for both beauty and combat.

[FrankCefalu]

I believe the whole idea of keeping your hand out is for posture and just to make it look good so it can be practiced in a more of artful technique for the kata.

In a real life situation, a man is not going to fight you fists to fists, unless he is really honorable. You know he is gonna flat out tackle you. So yea, personally I think its more for form rather than fighting.

[paul paterson]

Osu,

At the basic level you learn to get the technique right or as near right as you can get, this is Kihon. A stage further is to feel the technique, as you get up higher in the grades you will come across harder kata and this reqiures a differnent way of doing your kata. Most styles or schools of karate will have their students put and keep their leading arm / punch/ block etc out but this in purpose incorrect and is out of tune to what the kata is in one way about. When you finish the kata you should end up back at the beginning and end with Naore, why? Because you have finished killing the "invisible" enemy which means you are no longer fighting, why leave yourself open for further attack?

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[Kof_Andy]

Haha most styles kata dont make sense, so I wont even go there. Why bother doing upper block, or out side block in form, if your never going to use it like that. The way karate form, and tkd form as it is now is too inpratical, maybe thats why kukiwon is rewritting it. Anyway I dont think keeping your hands out is for posture purpose. Is bad posture, dont look right at all, and definitly dont look good. Try asking your teacher this question, if you guys do your form this way. See what he has to say about it. ;)

[morphus]

I'd like to add a further question - why do most karate & TKD arts throw a punch from the hip??

:confused:

[Kof_Andy]

Is a good way to train your body cordination, and a good way to learn twisting motion into your blocks and punches. Thats one of the reason why we do a huge prep before block, is for training cordination purposes. You cannot have a good martial foundation without the basics. Although I dont understand why some school over do this even for the higher dans, but before 1st dan those basics are your jewels.

[Cain]

Andy, I am with you - maybe you should have a look at the kata thread ;)

|Cain|

[FrankCefalu]

Kof_andy, katas are to symbolize multiple attacks on a person. Like the first kata most ppl learn is used to block someones attack with the upper hand block and then use overhand blocks after. This symbolizes you breaking his arm.

You have to understand the kata first before you try to make comments on them.

[FrankCefalu]

also the answer to ur second comment
----------------
Although I dont understand why some school over do this even for the higher dans, but before 1st dan those basics are your jewels.
----------------

There is a fighting style where the only thing they do is practice one move for 1000 reps before going onto the next and doing the same.

Karate does not do this, but trys to accomplish the same goal this style is trying to exemplify.

Fear- When in a fight fear takes over, and you should. When in a fight, your instincts act for you through fear. Someone who is fearful has more adrenaline than someone who is plain old angry. So the idea is to implement the punchs/kicks into your subconsicous so that when a fight happens instinct takes over. Thus Katas were born from these births =).

[Andrew Green]

umm... Forgive me for asking the obvious guys...

But the best way to learn "proper" technique and form, is to spend years doing it wrong...?

Anyway, I guess the traditional answer would be that it is to develop kime.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Some of this is done because it helps improve the concentration and emphasis of the strike. Since it is done in the older Okinawan methods as well, I doubt that the reason was anything to do with large groups practicing. Although it certainly does help an instructor correct people.
In the older systems of Okinawa the practice drills indeed include a very rapid withdrawal of the hand, almost as though the punch is inserted between other moves as an afterthought, or an added bonus. And also, the punching hand draws to the front of the lower rib cage in such a way as to protect the vital points located there and even serves to protect the centerline sometimes. They do not draw all the way to the hip as most modern Karate styles do.
So, the fist drawing to the hip is a modern thing that most likely came from Funakoshi. Let me put a finer point on that; In Tote-Jitsu, Funakoshi's very forst book that is rather rare, He indeed already draws to the hip. This is prior to all of his massive changes (in fact he tried to gather up all the original copies of this book and get rid of them after he made the changes). So, it becomes likely that Itosu taught him to do this. Itosu was known to have greatly modified what he taught over the course of his life.

-Chris J.

[kerling]

Knight_errant

When you train kata and leave your hand out it's not because thats the way you do it in real fighting situation. Keeping your hand out will help you with the transition to the next technique. Once you have gotten then feel of a well delivered punch/kick you can begin to think what you want from the punch. Is it a fast hit to the face or is it a hard blow to body. If it is a hard blow to the stomach retracting the punch to soon will lessen the effect of the punch.

Over time your kata movements will become more agile and timing will change and shift and the need to go into kamai will disappear because the next technique will be emerging from moment the kime is released.

I think to many people including my self have looked to simply at kata and what it is supposed todo for you. This will cause this discussion to appear your sensei should have addressed this in class when explaining kata and why kata is done.

Regards Kerling

[Mike Flanagan]

Kata is not punching practice. There are many drills for practising punches - holding it out to check form, pulling it back as quickly as possible, punching empty air, punching makiwara/pads and so on and so on. But kata is not one such drill.

So why might you want to leave your arm stuck out? Here's a couple of ideas....

1. Imagine the stepping forward and punching with your lead hand is not really a punch. Lets say its a throw of some kind (I know of a number of throws & takedowns which very close resemble this movement). You might want to transmit your kinetic energy forwards into the throw. When you see practitioners of aiki arts throwing they typically let their arms follow through after the person who has been thrown. They're allowing their kinetic energy to follow-through. Throws using a 'lunge punch' as the throwing movement utilise exactly this principle.

2. You might want to flow immediately into another technique following the punch. For example, one of the only reverse punches in the Pinan series of kata is towards the end of Pinan Shodan. It is followed immediately by an outward block with the same hand. Lets look at the outward block from another perspective. Maybe its not a block, maybe its a backfist strike. Maybe I want to punch my opponent in the torso then flow straight into a backfist to the face. This is exactly what you're practising in the kata, it would be inappropriate to withdraw the punching hand in this circumstance.

These are just a couple of ideas as to what that 'held out' punch might be doing. If your teacher doesn't teach these (or other explanations) it simply means that they don't understand them. It is yours or your teachers understanding that is flawed, not the kata.

Mike

[Ozebob]

I think this is worthwhile reading in regard to modern Kata as it gives another perspective-

http://www.oshirodojo.com/karate.html

He has a lot to say about kata and I found it very interesting.

For myself, I don't think the practise of kata is so necessary after you extrapolate the effective techniques (waza) from the kata and have practised it sufficiently with a partner so that it can be applied in a physical encounter.

But I do think you have to practise kata under a teacher that sees the forrest and not just the trees. We know that modern karate was transformed into a PE program but the kata provide a pathway back to the self-defense techniques of the original Te.

Modern kata is practised for its aesthetic look rather than its practical application but it is the human factor that has made the changes unknowingly, not the tool (kata) that is at fault.

Kata were not taught in unison with their meaning so we have a fascination with kata because it is not well understood. There was a code (kuden = oral transmission) attached to the kata revised by Itosu which explains how to return to the original self-defense applications. Somewhere along the line it was all but lost. One has to look far and wide to find a teacher with this knowledge.

[cragnacker]

Kerling and Mike Flanagan are on the right track here. However I would like to address the post of Andrew Green. He mentioned kime and I see this thrown out alot. I'd like to start a kime thread and have Andrew and anyone else give their understanding of kime. So all of those that are interested join me in the new kime thread.

[JohnnyX]

In all the kata that I've done, after punching, the hand is left right out in front of me. However, I am reliably informed that to leave your hand out like this leaves you in a vulnerable position. It stands to reason that you should be practicing getting that hand in afterwards. In sparring, we do get our hands back in straight away.
So I would like to ask, why do we do this? Why train one way and fight another?

Hi,

Just found this in the 10 Ten Karate Threads. :eek:
It all dates back to before I joined MAP, so, here is my contribution. :D

I have been taught that:

a. During a combination you leave your arm out after a punch to act as a 'pull-back' for the next punch.

b. When you have finished the combination, your next move is going to be a turn, to face the next opponent. You turn with your arm still extended and then quickly execute the next move. The idea here is that if the opponent is too close, you catch them on the turn with your outstretched arm.

Cheers. :)

[Tommy_P]

<snip>

Imagine the stepping forward and punching with your lead hand is not really a punch. <snip>


Good point Mike and one that unfortunately is missed by most.
Maybe it's not a punch at all. Maybe it's not even supposed to be applied with a closed fist.
What is the following move in the kata? What is the move before? Where does the "percieved" punch fit into the "sequence"?

Sometimes you have to look not at the final position of the technique but in how it got there to find it's meaning.
At the techniques end the technique is over, the application IMO is usually happening "during" the technique.

Ozebob,
Good article......but then again Oshiro sensei never fails to impress ;)

Tommy

[Musashi Kyo]

I think it is to develop the control of the punch and strength to hold the puch out there and the "LOCKED" position after impact/ Something like that.

[guran]

When teaching basics the hand(s) could be left out for the instructor to see placement, alignment, etc. This lets the instructor correct the height of the punch, whether or not it is centered (how many new students do we see that throw punches that stay in line with the outside of the hip and never strike where the opponent would be?), whether the wrist is lined up, etc.

When learning kata, it is broken down move-to-move so that the pattern of it can be learned easily and so that the importance of each move can be emphasized (ergo, you stop with your technique "hanging out" after each count). When performing a kata without "the count", ideally there should be no stops except at kamaes. This involves using proper stance and technique on every move, maintaining your center and balance during transitions, applying tension as if performing the bunkai on a resisting opponent, maintaining "sticky hands" with your imaginary opponent where appropriate, and (worst of all for most of us) proper breathing with each technique :eek: .

That's how we approach it anyway. Let the casting of stones begin! (ducks and covers)

[Knight_Errant]

a. During a combination you leave your arm out after a punch to act as a 'pull-back' for the next punch.

b. When you have finished the combination, your next move is going to be a turn, to face the next opponent. You turn with your arm still extended and then quickly execute the next move. The idea here is that if the opponent is too close, you catch them on the turn with your outstretched arm.

Thanks, that was actually pretty helpful.
On a side note, my instructor insists that we pull our hands back into fighting stance when we do kihon, but not in the relevant kata.

[tkdhkddave]

Ok so I do TKD but there are some simalarities in our patterns and I feel most posters on this thread are right in some way, for the record I used to practice Shotokan karate for a while and was told I left my hand out for focus, posture, power and general asthetics.

"you have to understand patterns before you can comment on them"
I disagree...

I try to keep a real open mind and love nothing more than when someone who is a non martial artist or when a lower grade asks me about what they or i'm doing or comments on something as they usually have a very differant viewpoint from mine, which in turn may make me analyse mine more and discover something new...we can all learn from eachother, regardless of grade and style..some of the best lessons I've learnt have been from non martial artists probing me about my style/technique or me experimenting my techniques on them.

[kenposan]

The thing about kata is we often overlook the true meaning by focusing on what we perceive as the technique. "Blocks" in kata are often not actually blocks, but strikes, locks, and throws.

As to the punches being left out, it is most likely a grab of some kind, or, as mentioned earlier, a transition of some kind into the next technique.

One has to remember there is no wasted movement in kata, it all has a purpose. The problem is that too many people have forgotten or were not taught the true meaning and therefore remain locked in the "punch is a punch" and "block is a block" thinking. This is why so many people dislike kata. People complain the blocks taught in kata are not practical for real defense. That is true, because those blocks are not blocks. We are taught them as blocks in the begining because it's an easy explanation to a more complicated technique.

[Rurounin]

We have to make the difference betwen Kihon and Kumite! Kata is a form of Kihonand so, needs to have some basis of practise in order to uniformize it! I think that's why we are abble to receive the Katas after all these years of changes and introductions of movements! You practise kata and Kihon in order to know your body and perfect the technique. Afterwords you can use those movements in Kumite in a more relaxed way!
Kihon has to be strict and Kumite is unique to one self!!

[samuri-man]

it's obviously to show the sensai you technique and where you punching ot's like saying why don't people turn lights off when they leave the room? they should but they they don't

[SparcZ]

You stick your arm out so that when you pull it back in you generate more power. The retraction of the arm is what you should focus on when punching or blocking. Once you can get that feeling of pulling it back on plane and really fast the pop to your punch and block will be increased especially when the hips work in conjunction with this.