Shin toughening

[khafra]

I read recently about Muay Thai practitioners rolling bamboo on their shins to toughen them, and deaden the nerves. Then I couldn't find where I read it, or anything further on that anywhere. Is that a common practice? What are the specifics? I could use tougher shins, if nothing else for walking across my living room in the dark.

[Freeform]

I knew some guys who used rolling pins to the same effect, not a sore initially and it takes longer to get there, but a bit more comfortable!

Thanx

[khafra]

That's exactly what I tried last night. I'm glad to hear that it works. I tried about five minutes each shin with moderate pressure and speed. If that's wildly different than the effective dose could you let me know?

[stump]

hi i'm no expert in this area (or any other!) so feel free to contradict this is anyone knows better.

I was advised against doing this because while it deadens the nerves in the shins it does not build up bone density in the shins which kicking the bag does do.

Just a little something to add to the mix. Does anyone else know if this is true or not?

[Andy Murray]

Hi Colin,

I understand what you are saying, but the Thai guys do bagwork too (In some cases as soon as they are old enough to walk).

What I am concerned about is the stories that Shin Trauma can lead to Bone Cancer.

Anybody know more on that?

Andy

[khafra]

Yikes. I know, in general, any type of cellular trauma has a possibility of causing cancer, but I've never heard any statistics about body toughening in particular. Never thought about that. Any idea if a dit da jow alleviates that?

[YODA]

All I know about shin cancer is that a friend of mine banged his shin in training - and 6 months later he was DEAD!

Banging bones with hard objects is plain dumb! Wear shorts & kick the pads & bags - that's plenty conditioning.

[Saz]

I agree with Yoda, hitting your shins on hard objects is likely to do more harm than good.

Deadening the nerves seems a pretty dangerous thing to do. It lessens the chance of you knowing if you have an injury. We use mariwaka boards to strengthen our shins. If I'm not mistaken, certain high stances like Neko Ashi Dachi (cat stance) can help as well. Although saying that the philosophy in our dojo is that there's nothing you can do to stop pain, you just have to get used to it.

[Cooler]

Take the pain and strike again.

Cooler

[Andy Murray]

All I know about shin cancer is that a friend of mine banged his shin in training - and 6 months later he was DEAD!

Sorry to bring it up then Dave, and sorry for your loss.

Andy

[YODA]

No need to be sorry Andy. If just one person reads it and doesn't do it then that'll be fine by me.

There's only one thing you need to condition to take pain - your mind!

[tuney30]

From the sounds of you guys you seem to know exactly what your on about.Do any of you have any tips on conditioning yourself against pain. cheers

[waya]

I agree with Yoda, your mind is the most important thing to condition against pain. You have to be able to partition your mind to in effect temporarily turn the pain off. That will enable you to continue on rather than have physical pain hinder your performance. There is, of course, a limit to how far you can go with this. Depending upon your tolerance level for pain at the beginning and several other factors.

Rob

[khafra]

Are there any more effective ways to train against pain than simply doing things that hurt and trying to ignore it?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Whatever you do don't learn to hold your hand in a candle flame. Its been four years and I've still got a scar from that.

[Cain]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Whatever you do don't learn to hold your hand in a candle flame. Its been four years and I've still got a scar from that.

LOL I like that dude and see what you mean exactly.
|Cain|

[Darzeka]

Try meditation, being calm and realising what the pain is.

Pain is only the body telling you something is happening to it. If you realise what is happening but need to do it anyway then you can exist with the pain and you get this kinda removed feeling from it, like it doesn't matter.

I've this happening to a certain degree at the moment and it feels kinda strange when something hurts and the only reason you stop doing it is not the pain but the realisation that you are damaging your body.

This is kinda hard to explain but I found meditation/meditative stretching and breathing to help immensly.
In the end the pain doesn't matter and if its just the pain in your muscles from fatigue then you can also put a spin on it saying that its good for you to be doing this.

I don't have enough control to take this to really big problems without some time - Something has been happening to my hip (it clunks when I raise my knee then put it down again) a few nights ago it went beserk and almost hurt when I walked. It took me a few seconds to get up after a couple of throws but it all seems to be good now for my grading this arvo.

Pain is one of the most intense experiences we will ever have and right now some pain is almost enjoyable (well every experience is good because it hasn't happened before therefore it brings happiness, or should anyway).

[big e]

has any 1 ever tried to re inact
that van dam film we he repeatedly kicks the tree?
ya could try that.
hehehe

[stump]

hi all,

I posted a while back on this post about rolling pin shin conditioning not being good for you. Last night I was discussing this with someone and they were of the opinion that this was actually an OK way to condition the shins. I respect this persons opinion but they're not a doctor so I was wondering....does anyone in the know have an opinion on this method as a conditioning tool. Is it ok or a no-no? I know that its not a replacement for bag work, but is it ok to do alongside bagwork?

Colin (who's very confused!)

[simonlarcombe]

I would generally agree with most of the posts here which say it's a bad idea 1) to eliminate pain and 2) to bash your shins to bits to get used to it!

I don't know a great deal about this area but I would particularly agree with Darzeka in the area of meditation. If it is absolutely necassary to be able to handle pain in a situation I think meditation (although it takes a lot of time) would be the best option.

There are many good books on this subject which you can buy.

Unfortunately, if you pratice Muay Thai you are going to get banged!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We've got a doctor training with us, so if you'd like I'll ask her and get a professional opinion.

[Obi-Wan]

Originally posted by YODA
No need to be sorry Andy. If just one person reads it and doesn't do it then that'll be fine by me.

There's only one thing you need to condition to take pain - your mind!

Yep, I have to totally agree with Yoda here! Peoples pain barriers most of the time are just mental things. I would concentrate on training your mind rather then trying to tuffen your shins.

I have very sensative shins, always have most probably always will. If I go to train with them, I will just where some shin guards! :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Okay, professional opinion coming up (not a direct quote, merely the gist as far as I understood it).

When you break a bone it grows back stronger on the inside, however conditioning is merely causing damage to the bone. There are two possible outcomes. Too many microfractures will simply make the bone brittle, hard but brittle (think of a diamond, you can grind it against anything but hit it with a hammer and it shatters) which means when it does break it'll shatter. The other, less pleasant one is some condition with a complicated name, but essentially turning your limbs into stone.

[YODA]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Okay, professional opinion coming up (not a direct quote, merely the gist as far as I understood it).

When you break a bone it grows back stronger on the inside, however conditioning is merely causing damage to the bone. There are two possible outcomes. Too many microfractures will simply make the bone brittle, hard but brittle (think of a diamond, you can grind it against anything but hit it with a hammer and it shatters) which means when it does break it'll shatter. The other, less pleasant one is some condition with a complicated name, but essentially turning your limbs into stone.


Ossification

One of the best ways to encourage bones to become denser is to increase the load bearing that they undergo - i.e. Weight training.

This is especially recommended to minimise the chances of Osteoporosis in women "of an age" (Polite mode)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Thank you, that's the word.

[Mike Flanagan]

When a broken bone mends the amount of bone tissue increases, ie. there's more bone there afterwards. I was under the assumption that this meant the bone was stronger. However, someone corrected me on that recently. The bone is still likely to be weaker, as the new growth is not orientated with the rest of the bone fibres. The new fibres are oriented randomly, which ultimately means a weaker bone.

I concur with Yoda: probably the best way to strengthen bones is to place them under load, ie. weightlifting. The phenomena Jimmy's doctor friend mentioned I think alludes to calcification of the soft tissues as well as the bone, ie. your muscles etc begin to turn to bone. I think this most likely occurs as a result of disease rather than trauma. But perhaps the micro-trauma associated with shin conditioning might be sufficient to cause this, I don't know. Doesn't sound like something I'd want to do to myself though.

Mike

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Apparently its more often caused by disease, but only because people conditioning themselves is relatively rare. However the actual proportions compared to people at risk from disease and conditioning are the same.

[rick_nz]

it is not so much toughning the shins,the bag workouts will do this in a safes way for you .but the important thing is the body mechanics of the shin kick(round kick)..alot of people tend to push the bag when they kick instead of going thru the bag,try this techinique....stand arm lenths away from the wall execute your kick(softly) to the wall so your instep touches the wall first then your knee(you are just placing your leg on the wall)you should be able to feel if you are doing the kick right ..then try the kick on the bag see the differenc on the way the bag moves .to me this is far beyyer than trying to do harm to your shins when you will feel the pain of arthrittis kicking in when you get older
thats my 2 cents ,hope this helps

regards
rick_nz

[Cain]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe
Unfortunately, if you pratice Muay Thai you are going to get banged!

Still the Thai fighters end up in one piece :confused:

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie


Still the Thai fighters end up in one piece :confused:

|Cain|


....... and still Thai fighters in Thailand die from bone cancer. They don't put THAT in their ads though - just sweep 'em under the carpet - life is cheap :(

[Cain]

Takin' a big risk here for disagreeing with u.......but would'nt that make big news I mean ppl hv been practising muay that for so many years and this is the first time I am hering that it causes cancer, sure they can be damaging if done wrong just like everything else but if done rite then it can only benifit u.........it's just wat I think.......

|Cain|

[YODA]

I friend of mine used to go to Thailand every year to train. He reckons for every successful fighter you see in the ring there are 2 or 3 who quit at an early age due to injuries - many of those injuries being horrendous. Guys walking around on crutches with a thin shrivled leg is one that springs to mind. More so in the small provincial stadiums it seems.

I'm not saying it's a huge risk - and Muay Thai is a fantastic art - but when taken to an extreme level it can and does take the life of some of its participants.

Incidently - that same friend took ill with motor neurone disease and died - coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

[Cain]

I realise u hv a reason for saying that and I understand that completely, sorry to hear about ur freind Yoda, I guess I should'nt hv brought that up.

|Cain|

[YODA]

No problem Cain. Yours was a valid question.

[dredleviathan]

I seem to remember hearing that Thailand has above average incidence of cancer of the shin... I think this was specifically attrributed to Muay Thai but I can't trace the source at the moment so it could just be something 'I heard'.

[Phoenix]

You heard right. I once read it on one of Thailand's own sites that promote Muay Thai as Thailand's gift to the world. Thais have the highest shin cancer rate.

[morphus]

Don't The Wise say anything in excess, no matter what it is, is NOT good for you. We should take everything in proportion to everything else. :cool:

[AllOutWar]

They say kicking the bag 500 times per leg a day is a good start. I will admit that I only do 100 per leg maybe 150 If I'm havin one of those days. Rolling things on your shins is garbage, not only does it not make the bone denser it is a false sense of reality. Now moving on to the bone cancer. Along with studing Muay Thai I also practice traditional Karate body conditioning. When you train any part of your body you can't be sadistic about it! Over doing it will actually reverse the bone healing process. Wich in turn will lead to bone cancer. Using a linament before and after kicking the bag will help. I use Tiger balm, It should be at your local oriental market.......Hell Wal-mart carrys it now too! Dit Da Jow is amazing and works wonders finding everything that goes into it maybe be a little hard but can be accoplished. Also when hittng the bag you should do the first 30 light working on your form but by 30 you should start laying into it. Remeber to take time to massage your shins while hittiong the bag for blood circulation.And finally jumping rope for 20 min to ahalf hour before you kick the bag is a great warm up and from my progression has helped I believe it's kinda like impact training for my shins

[JediMasterChris]

What about Iron Palm conditioning??? It deadens the nerves in your palm doesn't it? Will breaking construction bricks give me palm cancer?:confused:

[Ian1983]

Don't know if this was touched upon, but when the bone breaks, the body compensates by making the bone stronger at the point of the fracture. This means that although this area is stronger, it will have leached minerals from the surrounding bone in order to make it stronger, there by making the surrounding bone weaker. I was told this by my trainer, and I have no reason to doubt him.

[Combatant]

The reason most people partake in martial arts is to protect them selves. What is the point of beating yourself up on a daily basis (risking serious problems) in order to save yourself a bit of pain when/if you actually get into a fight. If you have a heavy bag then this should be all the conditioning you need in my opinion.

I was told that you should only condition yourself with things that are softer then your bones i.e pads n bags n gloves.

[Snakescales]

I'm a student of Chinese Medicine and I'm a rather novice kickboxer as well but I've done exercise for many years and I think that people need to be aware of the possible problems with toughening hands, shins and forearms. If you're going to do this I recommend you use padded surfaces with a larger surface area, this will keep from causing too much stress on any one point and possibly fracturing a bone or worse. From a Chinese medical perspective, hitting hard objects with bone disrupts the flow of Qi and can lead to several problems that seem unrelated to the area of injury (Dim Mak teaches one point on the shins that causes someone to defacate on the spot when hit precisely!) These can lead to eventual long term injury of many internal organs. I recommend to apply arnica on legs or arms after this training to help it heal quicker but you should consult a sports medicine specialist or I highly recommend a good accupuncturist so that you can train safely and without causing any unforeseen problems in the future. I don't recommend this so much for hands as it WILL give you problems later in life leading to things like arthritis. Train hard, train safe, you only get one body, do it right the first time.

-Andres

[Dark Blade]

Bone conditioning.....It's not good for you
Alot of Muay Thai guys can't walk past the age of 30.
It's a good art, no doubt about that, but taken to an extreme it's no good at all.
I went to a pysio to get some stuff checked out and she noticed my knuckles, she think's the joint of my right hand "pinky" is slightly damaged, and told me to take some shark cartlidge to help repair my knuckles.

I'd strongly advise against conditioning.

[Jeff Burger]

Impact builds bone.

Start easy and progress slowly.

I meet 42 former Muay Thai champions in Thailand and non looked unhealthy...including one guy in his 70s.

Id suggest looking into a Chinese method of conditioning called "MUYUGUNG".


Jeff

[khafra]

Google only found one match for muyugong, and the page was in Spanish.

Elucidate a little? Is it a method that uses dit da jow to heal after training sessions, to minimize damage?

[Jeff Burger]

Muyugung means...Bathing Skills (has nothing to do with soap and water).

Its an Iron Body exercise (no mystical energy).
It starts with some dynamic tension and other exercises.
Then you do a progression of gettting hit. You do a bit all over with special attention to certain areas that you would like to block or strike with and areas that will get attacked.

Im not a really big advocate of Dit Da Jow. I think they get alot fo hype to get sold.
If the conditioning is done moderately there should be little or no bruising.
I do use some Dit Da Jow for bruises and a different Dit Da Jow more as a brine (skin toughener).

I did Iron Palm in China and they never said anything about Dit Da Jow until I asked, about 3 weeks into training.
Several of my students can do brick breaks and they dont use Dit Da Jow to train their hands.

My students use some Dit Da Jow for bruises they get in sparring.
I do beleive it helps a bit.
I have taken similar bruises and only treated one with Dit Da Jow to see if there weas any difference in recovery.
There has been and some were better than others.

As for the shin besides conditioning the bone try not to use it when blocking.
Flex the toes upward to flex the muscles of the shin.
These can be conditioned to take alot of impact and you wont have hardly if any pain on impact.
(soft vs hard / hard vs soft)

Jeff

[Combatant]

As for the shin besides conditioning the bone try not to use it when blocking.

Good advice. I have never even thought of that. Is that standard practice in any schools?

[Jeff Burger]

Standard at our school.
Its one of the first blocks we teach as far as dealing with kicks....a level 1 requirement.

Ill try to take some pics of some exercises for building the muscle.

Also dont go smashing your bones against something hard.
Hard on soft and sdoft on hard.
For the shin onw of my favorites in a car tire, or take a nice soft rubber shoe...like a old MA shoe (I use an old Feivue) and hit with that.
Then go with your partner gradually building up...if you feel bone to bone its wrong.

Of course in a match Id rather have the tip of my knee in his shin or instep.

Jeff

[steverhondda]

wasup y'all, if you want to deaden the nerves, you'l have to keep doing it becuase nerve endings keep growing back, the best way of of conditioning your legs if with pads, i train in karate, and we use pads and then use low kicks to the inner and outer side of our legs, that works

[onetufflea13]

I have recently returned to Martial Arts after almost 25 years, I came across this thread while trying to find out how to "toughen" my shins. Some of the things I have come across are about as brilliant as the "touch less knockout" people. Rolling pins were a very early way to fix shin splints...its isn't used anymore for a reason. In all of my experience deadening the nerves of anything is just bad practice, easy way to break something worse than normal. As far as pain management goes, well thats just a very broad area with many different factors. I have been told by tattoo artist that the old I get my pain threshold will lower. There is also the factor of time, the longer you go without the pain, the more it hurts (its less shocking to you if its more frequent). Mental toughness does play a factor also, along with genetics. Are there humans that can accomplish theses things? Absolutly! But they are Shaolin Monks or Tarahamara indians (the Mexican tribesmen that run ultra ultra ultra marathons barefoot).
So in my non expert opinion the only way to get through the shin pain is mentioned earlier in this forum, kick a bag, pay attention to what your body is saying and treat it properly, and oh yeah deal with the pain. I also recommend a good fitness routine to supplement your Martial Arts training

[47MartialMan]

As with any type of conditioning, do not do it unless you are going into hardcore competition. Then there are cons after you start aguf

[YouKnowWho]

As with any type of conditioning, do not do it unless you are going into hardcore competition. Then there are cons after you start aguf

Agree! If you are not a "tournament" person, it make no sense to hurt yourself before even get into a real fight. A "tournament" person will have to pay some price that average person may not have to.

One year in the Dallas Taiji Legacy tournament, the Sanshou rules added 1 point for any low roundhouse kick to the leg. During the dinner, I argued with a guy. He believed that roundhouse kick to the leading leg is very effective and should deserve 1 point. I disagree. We ended up got from our dinner table and I let him to use his low roundhouse to kick my leading leg as much as he wanted.

[47MartialMan]

Agree! If you are not a "tournament" person, it make no sense to hurt yourself before even get into a real fight. A "tournament" person will have to pay some price that average person may not have to.

One year in the Dallas Taiji Legacy tournament, the Sanshou rules added 1 point for any low roundhouse kick to the leg. During the dinner, I argued with a guy. He believed that roundhouse kick to the leading leg is very effective and should deserve 1 point. I disagree. We ended up got from our dinner table and I let him to use his low roundhouse to kick my leading leg as much as he wanted.

Depends on the tournament

[Unreal Combat]

Unless you're a sadist then bags, pads and humans should suffice.

[daggers]

OMG!
just TRAIN! hit the pads, hit the bags, spar properly and senibly with shin pads on. learn to time your shots, dont hit knees and elbows. theres not just one level of contact you know..FULL POWER.. only full power on a clean SURE shot, therefore maximum effect on opponent, minimum pain on you. there are NO secrets to martial arts! just hard training, dedication, will, guts and determination, a will to LISTEN to instruction and above all a good instructor.
get yourself a fight and you will still probably come out with badly hurt shins, and the next time and the next time... but you dont really care anymore because youve just done what 99% of the population wouldnt have the guts to do :)