Atheist?

[tekkengod]

There are those of us who stand firmly on one side of the battlefield. Aikimac and Capt Ann spring to mind when i think of Theists/creationists, namely 2 whose persistance I admire. And surely anyone whos spent any amount of time on MAP thinks of Myself, Homer J Simpson and Socrastein when the word Atheist pops up, but i've noticed lately that the lines are being drawn a little thinner than they used to. one or two sentences can state your position so you have to be very careful about how you word things, and as of such, it seems like alot of people around MAP seem to be changing teams left and right or fence sitting altogether. I know theres been more than enough religion polls, but i want to make this as direct as possible. Either your an Atheist, or a Theist. Freethinker or not. And as far as i'm concerned, if your an agnostic, your an atheist. so, in keeping with that line of thought, i offer no middle ground. get off the fence and pick a side. so what are you?

[WatchfulAbyss]

No middle ground makes me atheist, I geuss it doesn't matter, middle grounders go to the same place I geuss.........

[Angelus]

Becoming more athiest by the day.... i just keep seeing flaws in the idea of an all powerful "perfect" god.

[adouglasmhor]

Neither and not in the middle ground either thank you.

[tekkengod]

Neither and not in the middle ground either thank you.
?

[adouglasmhor]

?http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3969/dontknow7gn.gif

[xen]

Freethinker or not.

hmmm...

individuals can maintain faith without sacrificing intellect. :rolleyes:

----

i'm sure its been said before...

but both theism and atheism are founded equally in belief.

you, tekken, can't conclusively prove to me hear and now that God does not exist.

you may make a reasoned case for his non-existence, but that does not constitute proof.

thus, your atheism is just your own personal religion, based on your beliefs about the nature of things.

:)

[WatchfulAbyss]

hmmm...

individuals can maintain faith without sacrificing intellect.

----

i'm sure its been said before...

but both theism and atheism are founded equally in belief.

you, tekken, can't conclusively prove to me hear and now that God does not exist.

you may make a reasoned case for his non-existence, but that does not constitute proof.

thus, your atheism is just your own personal religion, based on your beliefs about the nature of things.

Does a belief system that states a lack of faith in a deity, qualify as a religion?

And another thing, I am not going to debate rather or not god is real. I am however, going to use your argument.
I have a 87000 pound 4 ft invisible gorrila living in my closet. who not only hangs out with your god, but can beat him in arm wrestling. Can anyone prove I don't????

[narcsarge]

Bump^^ To put it another way, what if your wrong? Seems to me you stand to lose more then someone that believes in a supreme being. If those of us that believe in a diety are wrong, we have lost nothing!

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I'm not an atheist or a creationist. Sorry, I can't vote in your poll. :)

[WatchfulAbyss]

Bump^^ To put it another way, what if your wrong? Seems to me you stand to lose more then someone that believes in a supreme being. If those of us that believe in a diety are wrong, we have lost nothing!

Can you force yourself to believe in something you don't, I mean truly believe, I am sure if there is a god, he would know if your faking.

[narcsarge]

Not sure I understand the question. I can believe something that is presented so I can make an informed decision on it. If someone presents an arguement or an idea in a well thought out manner, with facts or information I can validate then I can decide. I may still not believe in their premise but I can at least understand it.

[WatchfulAbyss]

Not sure I understand the question. I can believe something that is presented so I can make an informed decision on it. If someone presents an arguement or an idea in a well thought out manner, with facts or information I can validate then I can decide. I may still not believe in their premise but I can at least understand it.


Ok, umm, how about this.

What if for whatever reason that informed decision lead you in the other direction. To you based on what you see around you, all the info involved, a paranormal explanation just wont cut it. How do you just change that? You say that you will have lost nothing if you just believe, well, thats true. But believing isn't something you can fake, you can't up and just decide that it makes sense. I geuss my point is, the way you put it, sounded kind of like, why don't you just believe for the sake of believing.(one of those just in case kind of things) I just don't think it is that simple. I mean, how do you validate god, to some people this just can't be done, short of god coming down to do some politicking. (you know, shake some hands, kiss some little kids on the cheek, maybe a couple of banners) It would have to reach them on their level of thinking, and as of right now, that kind of evidence dont exist.

[Aegis]

Bump^^ To put it another way, what if your wrong? Seems to me you stand to lose more then someone that believes in a supreme being. If those of us that believe in a diety are wrong, we have lost nothing!
The problem with Pascal's Wager (which is basically what you just used) is that from the perspective of the atheist, you have time in your life to waste when you could otherwise be doing something else, and you have the possibility of picking the wrong god to believe in, thereby making things even worse for yourself. The form of Pascal's Wager used to try and convince people to more or less believe "just in case" therefore has a majow flaw when it sets up the possibilities as a simple dichotomy (i.e. Christian god exists, belief is rewarded; doesn't exist, belief is not punished) , and in addition to all that, I would doubt that any omnipotent being would be fooled by someone believing just in case that being really exists.

It's just not a sensible bet when targeted to an atheist. It makes a lot more sense to target it at a believer in order to persuade them to continue believing, but it's still not the most logically sound argument I've ever heard.

As for myself, I would class myself as a weak atheist, in that I have no belief whatsoever in any supreme being and operate on the assumption that one doesn't exist. However, I don't go so far as to state conclusively that one doesn't exist, even though I think the chances of it are very slim.

[Davey Bones]

Either your an Atheist, or a Theist. Freethinker or not. And as far as i'm concerned, if your an agnostic, your an atheist. so, in keeping with that line of thought, i offer no middle ground. get off the fence and pick a side. so what are you?

Flawed terms for a flawed poll. And "freethinker or not"?!?! Get over yourself. :rolleyes:

[narcsarge]

Ok, umm, how about this.

What if for whatever reason that informed decision lead you in the other direction. To you based on what you see around you, all the info involved, a paranormal explanation just wont cut it. How do you just change that? You say that you will have lost nothing if you just believe, well, thats true. But believing isn't something you can fake, you can't up and just decide that it makes sense. I geuss my point is, the way you put it, sounded kind of like, why don't you just believe for the sake of believing.(one of those just in case kind of things) I just don't think it is that simple. I mean, how do you validate god, to some this just can't be done, short of god coming down to do some politicking. (you know, shake some hands, kiss some little kids on the cheek maybe a couple of banners)

You are taking what I said as an attempt to make an atheist 'believe". Not my intentions at all. Just being a critical thinker. If a supreme diety exists and I don;t believe, or believe in something other then that, then I may well be in jeopardy. To an atheist, I am just wasting my time. Ok, but that is what an atheist 'believes'. I am not trying to change anyone's mind or thrust my beliefs on them. I am merely saying that athiests may stand to lose more then those who believe in a supreme being.

Aegis, I was not targeting anyone or anybody. I was merely pointing out something we all understand. Most of us err on the side of caution when we can. I never intend to impose my beliefs on another. I am merely trying to add to the topic that has been presented.

[WatchfulAbyss]

You are taking what I said as an attempt to make an atheist 'believe". Not my intentions at all. Just being a critical thinker. If a supreme diety exists and I don;t believe, or believe in something other then that, then I may well be in jeopardy. To an atheist, I am just wasting my time. Ok, but that is what an atheist 'believes'. I am not trying to change anyone's mind or thrust my beliefs on them. I am merely saying that athiests may stand to lose more then those who believe in a supreme being.


You are correct, in the assumption that if there is a god that atheist have more to lose. I don't think you are wasting your time though, it just isn't how some would choose to spend theirs. As to pushing your beliefs on other people, what kind of a person that believed in god and the bible wouldn't try to save someones soul.........

[narcsarge]

You are correct, in the assumption that if there is a god that atheist have more to lose. I don't think you are wasting your time though, it just isn't how some would choose to spend theirs. I mean, what kind of a person that believed in god wouldn't try to save someones soul.........

Simple answer, from a Christian, one man can not save another man's soul. The best a man can do is present his views on his religion. Testimony from people who have "been changed" by believing in their religion is the only thing that man can do. To change the soul of a man has to be done by something other then another man. Call it God, the Holy Spirit, what ever. I can no more change the soul of a man then I can alter the tides.

[WatchfulAbyss]

For the sake of argument, lets just say that if you swayed the tides, you are a direct result of the outcome. Kind of like being pushed out of the way of a moving car, technically the only reason you would be alive is becouse the car didn't hit you, but if you hadn't been pushed.............

[narcsarge]

I don't get what your saying. I do believe, and have seen, men that did not have a belief in a supreme being turn to a religion. The reasons range from, just trying it out to having been swayed by another person's testimony. Now, according to my beliefs, anytime someone heres your testimony and is swayed, you get some credit. But I don't think that beating somone over the head with a lead Bible will persuade anyone. So, if you are an aethist or Pagan or Wiccan, it does not bother me in the least.

[watto86]

No middle ground makes me atheist, I geuss it doesn't matter, middle grounders go to the same place I geuss.........
Pretty much. Yeah.
I'm full blown atheist. Don't believe any god or gods exist. Full stop. I have my reasons. But i'm not here to convert anyone.
Having said that though. Go atheism! Look at that poll!
Crap. I just jinxed it. Now heaps of Christians will come in. :P

[WatchfulAbyss]

You said-
Simple answer, from a Christian, one man can not save another man's soul. The best a man can do is present his views on his religion. Testimony from people who have "been changed" by believing in their religion is the only thing that man can do. To change the soul of a man has to be done by something other then another man. Call it God, the Holy Spirit, what ever. I can no more change the soul of a man then I can alter the tides.

So I said


For the sake of argument, lets just say that if you swayed the tides, you are a direct result of the outcome. Kind of like being pushed out of the way of a moving car, technically the only reason you would be alive is becouse the car didn't hit you, but if you hadn't been pushed.............


My post is in line with you saying you cannot save a soul. I just miss read one little part of your post, so you can choose to ignore my post, I know I will.....

[Aegis]

I haven't cast a vote because I personally think it's silly to divide the world into either creationist or atheist. Creationism generally has a meaning other than simple belief in a god, usually meaning that you can't believe in science, etc.

As such, since I've dated and been friends with people who wouldn't fit either, I am flat-out refusing to supply my vote :p

[watto86]

As such, since I've dated and been friends with people who wouldn't fit either, I am flat-out refusing to supply my vote :p
I see your point there. Even though i'm "devout" atheist. A good friend of mine is devote Christian, we just don't talk about religious differences, or thats when it starts.

[narcsarge]

So I said




My post is in line with you saying you cannot save a soul. I just miss read one little part of your post, so you can choose to ignore my post, I know I will.....


Ah yes! Got it now. True. Just as gravity affects other objects we too have influence. To what extent that influence is the cause of change we may never know. I'm with ya! :D

[WatchfulAbyss]

But I don't think that beating somone over the head with a lead Bible will But I don't think that beating somone over the head with a lead Bible will persuade anyone. So, if you are an aethist or Pagan or Wiccan, it does not bother me in the least. anyone.


I have a couple questions about the lead bible:
1) If I was to maybe, become a believer would I get one?

and

2) I see that you said you don't think it would persuade anyone, does that mean if I do, I can hit them over the head with it? :D

[narcsarge]

I have a couple questions about the lead bible:
1) If I was to maybe, become a believer would I get one?

and

2) I see that you said you don't think it would persuade anyone, does that mean if I do, I can hit them over the head with it? :D


Only if you leaded it yourself! :D Melted tire weights would work!

[rtkd-badger]

I am a believer, I believe I will die, get cooked to a crisp,finally lose those last few pounds, as I will be ash. I believe I will become fertiliser, worm food ;)

[watto86]

I am a believer, I believe I will die, get cooked to a crisp,finally lose those last few pounds, as I will be ash. I believe I will become fertiliser, worm food ;)
Sounds pretty Atheist:
Death: All dressed up and nowhere to go.

[Dyno]

I class myself as an Atheist, but I hate putting a label on my non-beliefs. Atheism sounds like a religion in it's own right. I went through a spate of Satanism in my younger teens, but what's the point in believing in the Dark lord when you don't believe in a God?

I do respect all beliefs and teaching and find them very interesting. The mythical element to it entregues me. I hate the idea of organized religion though, the whole concept is a joke.

[wrydolphin]

Man, you get a lead Bible? How come I didn't get one?


This is a seriously flawed poll. Talk about your false dichotomies. But I guess that is what you get when you haven't the ability to do any real free thinking of your own and constantly try to fit the actual world into your flawed little paradigm.

By the way, there are plenty of people who are Christians or believe in a diety of some sort and are evolutionary scientists or biologists. If you don't believe that, check out the new Archbishop of the US Episcopal church, a woman (hurrah) who was a marine biologist before becoming ordained.

[Vexed]

Yeah. Liked the comments.

You know What ?

Do you know ?

Well, i DO

[CKava]

It's a silly poll I mean isn't wry just above an example of how one can believe in some sort of God and not agree with Creationism? Anyhow I still voted... just so creationism gets trounced as it deserves :D.

[LJoll]

As for myself, I would class myself as a weak atheist, in that I have no belief whatsoever in any supreme being and operate on the assumption that one doesn't exist. However, I don't go so far as to state conclusively that one doesn't exist, even though I think the chances of it are very slim.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it.


Poor effort with the poll though.

[Topher]

i'm sure its been said before...

but both theism and atheism are founded equally in belief.

you, tekken, can't conclusively prove to me hear and now that God does not exist.

you may make a reasoned case for his non-existence, but that does not constitute proof.

thus, your atheism is just your own personal religion, based on your beliefs about the nature of things.

:)
Is baldness a hair style?

[Topher]

I agree with the others, the poll was crap. Not being an atheist doesn’t make you a creationist.


Anyway, on the subject of belief…

Regarding belief/non-belief in God:
Theism = Belief in god
Atheism = Lack of belief in God

Knowledge of God:
Gnosticism = We can have knowledge of god
Weak Agnosticism = We don’t know of god existence, but may gain knowledge in the future.
Strong Agnosticism = We don’t and never can know of god’s existence. It’s impossible by definition.

With this in mind, we can have the following variations…

Strong theism = Belief in god and belief we can ‘know’ ‘him’ (i.e. theism and gnosticism.)

Weak theism (also called agnostic theism, also possibly negative theism) = Belief in god and belief we cannot ‘know’ ‘him’ (i.e. theism and strong or weak agnosticism)

Weak atheism = Lack of belief in god (i.e atheism and weak/strong agnosticism)

Strong atheism = Maintains that god does not exist (i.e atheism and weak/strong agnosticism)

So all people hold a position in theism or atheism AND gnosticism or agnosticism.

So… do you believe in god? If you say yes, you’re a theist… no, then you’re an atheist.

To declare yourself as an agnostic only states your position regarding knowledge - that we cannot know of god. It does not state your stance on belief.

I would class myself as a strong agnostic and a strong/weak atheist. I say both strong and weak atheism because while technically I just lack a belief in a god, the more I look at the absurdities and inconsistencies of such a belief, the more I am convinced that god was a creation of man…made up. So in that sense I believe god exists, just as Santa does – as a figment of our imagination.

[WatchfulAbyss]

Strong Agnosticism = We don’t and never can know of god’s existence. It’s impossible by definition.

I think I fall under this......

[CosmicFish]

Tekken, under most other circumstances I'd have voted Atheist, simply because, whilst not totally accurate, it's the closest option for me.

I won't labour the "flawed poll" point, since plenty of others have covered it. However, I find pushy evangelism annoying, whether religious or atheistic, and since I feel no need to take a stand on either side of this "battlefield" :rolleyes: , like Aegis, I'm abstaining from voting.

[tekkengod]

well, for most intents and purposes,its was A: to get a ballpark statistic for MAP, and B: i'm tired of fence sitters.

[Moony]

Sorry......this poll is just plain stupid. Wry and Aegis made many a good point as to why.

As it is neither of those options fit me as i don't believe in the '6 days of wand waving' thing and i do not believe that there is no possibility of a god or god like entity for a variety of reasons.

Moony

[Saz]

Where's the Pastafarian option? This poll is biased!

:rolleyes:

[wrydolphin]

How can you get a ball park estimate of the religious composition of MAP with a poll that a.) has two choices and b.) those two choices don't correspond in any meaningful way? :rolleyes:

[watto86]

Where's the Pastafarian option? This poll is biased!

:rolleyes:
What the hell is that? Black Jamacians smoking Fettucini?
How can you get a ball park estimate of the religious composition of MAP with a poll that a.) has two choices and b.) those two choices don't correspond in any meaningful way? :rolleyes:
I think he was more or less just trying to get an idea of how many people do or don't believe god exists, and peoples thoughts on the origin of our world and/or the universe.

[tekkengod]

What the hell is that? Black Jamacians smoking Fettucini?

I think he was more or less just trying to get an idea of how many people do or don't believe god exists, and peoples thoughts on the origin of our world and/or the universe.

pastafarian? you haven't heard of his saucy love? the divine meat of his noodly appendage?

http://www.venganza.org/



and bingo, thats exactly what i was trying to do!

[watto86]

pastafarian? you haven't heard of his saucy love? the divine meat of his noodly appendage?

http://www.venganza.org/



and bingo, thats exactly what i was trying to do!
OK... Spaghetti cult. Right on. lol :P

And yeah. I figured thats what you meant. Just lucky I spose.

[CosmicFish]

well, for most intents and purposes,its was A: to get a ballpark statistic for MAP, and B: i'm tired of fence sitters.
Well even for a ballpark statistic, you'll still need to understand that it'll be incredibly vague. It's a bit like having lots of objects of all varying shades of grey, and trying to divide them up into two boxes, labelled white and black.

In fact, thinking about it, even that analogy is flawed because it assumes that there are no colours. As Homer and others have already pointed out, it's more than one dimensional.

As far as fence sitters go, you'll just have to learn to put up with us I'm afraid. :D If it were the case that all of us who are "sitting on the fence" simply lacked the courage to make a choice then you'd be right to be tired of us. However, as you can tell from the replies so far, many of us consider that there isn't good enough reason to make a firm commitment to either side.

Besides, one of the advantages of sitting on the fence is that we get a better view from up here. Consequently, we can see into plenty of other gardens, and we realise that there are more than just two possibilities to choose from. ;)

[Yohan]

There are those of us who stand firmly on one side of the battlefield. Aikimac and Capt Ann spring to mind when i think of Theists/creationists, namely 2 whose persistance I admire. And surely anyone whos spent any amount of time on MAP thinks of Myself, Homer J Simpson and Socrastein when the word Atheist pops up, but i've noticed lately that the lines are being drawn a little thinner than they used to. one or two sentences can state your position so you have to be very careful about how you word things, and as of such, it seems like alot of people around MAP seem to be changing teams left and right or fence sitting altogether. I know theres been more than enough religion polls, but i want to make this as direct as possible. Either your an Atheist, or a Theist. Freethinker or not. And as far as i'm concerned, if your an agnostic, your an atheist. so, in keeping with that line of thought, i offer no middle ground. get off the fence and pick a side. so what are you?

I am not sitting on any damn fences. My beliefs and all that are quite clealy defined. I am a Theist, and a free thinker. I think that everyone should receive a complete education that includes physical, mental, and spiritual aspects.

Tekken, you are one of the most religious people on the board.

Why didn't you just class the poll as athiests, theists, and agnostics? Then it would have convered all the bases instead of being so vague.

Creationists are a small part of of theists. Your poll only covers the fanatical, creationist, crazy ass theists, and athiests. You are trying to draw a thick line that divides everyone up cleanly, and you managed to draw that line with plenty of room on the atheist side. I don't think you understand that when it comes to religion, there are no clear battle lines.

[tom pain]

Atheist.

[Topher]

I think he was more or less just trying to get an idea of how many people do or don't believe god exists, and peoples thoughts on the origin of our world and/or the universe.
The problem is it assumes the opposite of the creationist position is an athistic position. A better poll would have been Athiest/Theist, Evolution/Creationism, God/No-God, or Religious/Non-religion

[watto86]

The problem is it assumes the opposite of the creationist position is an athistic position. A better poll would have been Athiest/Theist, Evolution/Creationism, God/No-God, or Religious/Non-religion
yeah. That and Pagans were forgotten along the way too.
If I was a Wotanist, i'd be so angry right now. But then again, if I was a Wotanist, i'd probably be banned from the forums for saying something stupid and racist.