Brazilian vs Traditional Ju Jitsu For Self Defence

[Fluffy Wabbit]

Hi Y'all,

Long time reader, first time poster.

Right, I'm 26, male, medium build, with a lot of spare time on my hands and a desire to become able to fend off more than your average anorexic anaemic 12 year old girl.

As of Thursday i'm taking up Kickboxing and, more than likely, a form of Ju Jitsu. So, questions:

1. Firstly, is Ju Jitsu recommended as a form of defence against your average large drunk at 2.30 on a saturday morning? (Alternatives at the club are limited to Kombat Kickboxing • Brazilian Jiu Jitsu • Traditional Jiu Jitsu Traditional Thai Boxing • Vale Tudo)

2. From what I can tell BJJ is mostly floor based grappling. Is that realistically a useful form of defence? (bearing in mind the amount of glass on the streets these days) Is Traditional JJ better for that?

3. I currently go to the gym about 3-4 times a week. Does taking up a martial art twice a week with maybe training on Saturday completely replace the gym or simply complement it.


Ok - I'd appreciate ANY advice you can give. I've scoured the forums and can't completely decide.

Thanks

Fluffy Wabbit

P.s. The name is a cunning disguise..... im not that fluffy.

[thiaboxr2]

Brazilian JJ is great to train in but as you said it is mostly ground based in its self defense. While traditional JJ will tend to have both attack and defense covered to a certain point. Meaning that you will also do standup defenses as well as groundwork. You will even get some weapons defenses.
Both styles will help you defend yourself if you end up going to the ground in a situation.



Your martial arts training will complement your workouts. If you want you can workout on the days that you do not go to school. I'm sure you will get a good workout in class anyway's. Or go hardcore and do both on the same day!

Kickboxing, whether Muey Thia or Kombat kickboxing, sounds great with some form of grappling incorperated, whether traditional JJ or Brazilian. Even Vale Tudo.

I personally train in Muey Thia and BJJ. Best of both worlds for me.
Mostly standup in one,Mostly groundwork in the other.:D

[stump]

If it's self defence as in stretfighting you want go for the vale tudo.

You'll get heavy emphasis on fitness aswell as learn prificiency in all ranges - stand up, clinch and groundwork - and you'll learn and pressure test only techniques that are efective against a resisting opponent.

Just bear in mind that competition vale tudo has differences to the street fight. But the ultimate aim is the same....you beat down someone who wants to do you damage :)

Alternatively do the on you enjoy most and expand/crosstrain when you're ready.

[Freeform]

The gym time should be to compliment your MA. But if you take up something like Vale Tudo, you'll get a hard workout and could probably afford to drop one of your gym slots if time is an issue.

Good luck.

Col

[mild7]

Man,

if you're already doing kickboxing, do BJJ to complement it.

Traditional JJ is ok. Good for some people. I don't like the fact that most of it is choreographed non-contact practice. However, some trad jj schools do engage in fullforce sparring though, but for the most part most schools do aikido-type cooperative stuff.

A lot of people criticise BJJ for being a floor-based grappling art. They then use this to justify not learning it. But trust me, floor happens, and when you're there you'll be grateful to have the ability to fight, or even get up from there in an efficient manner.

kickboxing with BJJ - the best of both worlds.

[snake_vs_crane]

either is good, the difference in self defense term is only that BJJ is a bit more ground oriented, against single opponents that dont matter, against multiple opponents you should be running anyway :D

seriously tho, its a matter of personal preference more than anything else...

[Fluffy Wabbit]

Running away has been my preferred "art" in the past -

Thanks all for the advice. I'm going to try as many things as I can in a trial week and, if still alive, pick one that suits.

---

Wabbit

[WhiteWizard]

Running away is a very good art that more people would be well advised to look at

[Aegis]

Originally posted by mild7
Traditional JJ is ok. Good for some people. I don't like the fact that most of it is choreographed non-contact practice. However, some trad jj schools do engage in fullforce sparring though, but for the most part most schools do aikido-type cooperative stuff.

Very much a generalisation. My style of traditional jujutsu deals with contact from day 1 (only breakfalls are done solo), and the attacks are practised at random during self defence practise.

We may not spar, but since our art is not generally geared towards one-on-one combat with another trained individual, we don't feel anything is actually missing. We instead designate an attacker and a defender, then have the attacker let rip. The defender simply defends himself. :)

[mild7]

aegis,

you just pretty much described what I was trying to say, so there is no generalisation on my part.

It is the kata method of training(kata in JJ being two-man practice) you guys are using, which is what I meant by choreographed training, as opposed to full-contact sparring.

Like I've always said, it's ok. For example, I would'nt want my granddad to engage in full-contact sparring( as in BJJ), but if he wanted to be active in MA I'd recommend him a good trad JJ school that uses the kata method.

personally I feel that sparring is the most important aspect of training though, if one can healthily engage in it. Because in a real situation theory goes out the window, and if you have been testing yourself in an alive environment(i.e. fullforce sparring) you have a higher chance of pulling off the techniques. That is the reason why people who compete in NHB events almost always take BJJ, because in high pressure situations like that it is what works. Trad jj, while still a fine activity, is better off left to the ones that value theory and artistry.

that is the truth for myself. I will be politically-correct here and say that it is different for different people.

[Aegis]

Did you read what I said? I said we train against random attacks. Yes, random, as in not choreographed. We don't do full contact sparring because most of our techniques are defensive, but our random attacks ARE full contact. If you don't evade or block, you will be floored. That teaches survival, and to my mind teaches "street" techniques at least as well as any full contact sparring would.

[mild7]

Does'nt matter if it's random. Fact is, your opponent comes in with one attack, you respond and pretty much he cooperates with you from then on.

That, is NOT what full contact is my friend.

Fullcontact is when your training partner comes at you with all he's got, tries to knock the F out of you. When you respond, he throws another spontaneous blow, continues the fight.(as would happen in a real situation).

Don't try to tell me that you guys do that. Because if you did... that is fullcontact sparring my friend, as is seen in arts like Muay Thai and BJJ(particularly the Vale Tudo portion)

I'm not saying trad jj sucks. You like it, that's fine. I have a lot of friends who do it and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Personally I have my own solid opinions and arguments against the use of noncontact training, but I won't voice them here.

[atlien]

1)Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is based on traditional jiu-jitsu, the difference is that the Gracies spent decades tweaking the traditional jiu-jitsu into their own style based on real fighting. The culture in Brazil is a lot different than it is here and in Brazil there are/were plenty of opportunities to fight a lot on the streets and beaches without ending up in jail like you would here. Despite what you see in the UFC and BJJ tournaments, BJJ was designed explictly for self defense, street fighting. BJJ is gonna be as good as it gets handling the large drunk at the bar.

2)There is also a lot more stand up fighting incorporated in BJJ than most people think but you won't see much of it in the UFC because why would a Gracie fight a stand up fight when he knows he is better than the other guy on the ground and the ground is a padded mat. I train with some guys who have done traditional jiu-jitsu and judo (some are black belts) in the past and I'm not too impressed with their stand up, they aren't too impressed with it anymore either. The one time I had to use BJJ I never went to the ground but the two guys who attacked my friend did go to the ground to take a little nap if you know what I mean.

3)If you get into Jiu-Jitsu and like it, it might change your workouts a bit. I started doing a much lighter weight, higher rep routine than before but that is just me.


The real key to martial arts training that all the BJJ haters miss is that in order to be effective you need to be able to train as close to a real-speed, real-strength, real-life situation as possible. That is the only way you can be effective in a real fight without having to train in an art for 10 or 20 years. That is why muay thai, kickboxing, boxing dominate for stand up and BJJ, submission wrestling, etc dominate on the ground.

Finally, make sure you find a qualified teacher.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by mild7
Does'nt matter if it's random. Fact is, your opponent comes in with one attack, you respond and pretty much he cooperates with you from then on.

That, is NOT what full contact is my friend.

Wow, you seem to be quite the expert on our style of training don't you? I'll leave it to other people to decide who's opinion matters more in this case; someone who actually knows the art he's talking about and has experience in sport jujutsu and judo in addition to this style, or someone that hasn't trained in this style at all....

You have NOT witnessed our training, you do NOT know how we attack. What you describe is the sort of training our white belts do. At the higher levels, the attacks get much more aggressive than that. You don't like what you're hearing, fine, but don't bad mouth my style of training just because you've seen one example of bad traditional training.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by atlien
The real key to martial arts training that all the BJJ haters miss is that in order to be effective you need to be able to train as close to a real-speed, real-strength, real-life situation as possible.

First of all, I'm not a BJJ hater

Second point is that this is exactly how we think too. However, we don't believe that if you get in a street fight you are likely to start grappling with an opponent who knows the counters to most of your techniques. We don't believe in going to ground unless forced down, at which point we get back up. Our training is geared towards realism as well, we just have a different method of making it more realistic.

If you guys don't like how we train, fine, that's your choice. But you don't have to pass it off as less realistic just because you like your method better.

[atlien]

Aegis,
I was not referring to you, your reply, or anything like that. I was just trying to point out one of the advantages of BJJ. I know there are good traditional martial arts schools around that will teach you practical self defense and I would say they have one thing in common, they train much more realisticly than other schools just like BJJ. For example, a guy that I know has a lot of Karate experience and is an absolute nightmare with it, the reason he is so good is because he trained for a long time at a very violent school that taught the real deal okinawan karate, so obviously he trained at more of a "fight school" than the family dojo for soccer moms and junior high schoolers like most of the karate schools around.

What I was referring to.........is the martial artists from the McDojos who all have a theory why there art is specifically better than BJJ, not other arts but specifically BJJ, and a guy who is new to the arts needs to know about this so he won't be fooled by these people. These people that are threatened because in the ring BJJ proves it is more effective than what they have been doing for 20 years. You know who I'm talking about, the black belt hapkido instructor that gets spanked when he roles with a 1 year BJJ white belt and when he is done tapping out he makes excuses like "in a real fight that would never happen because I could eye gouge you." In a real fight he would have his elbow shattered with an armbar as soon as he straightened his arm to try to eye gouge. I am not saying these guys exist at your school but you and I both know they exist at some traditional jiu-jitsu schools, just like there are some bad BJJ schools.

[mild7]

aegis,

it is quite simple. What you are doing is NOT fullcontact sparring. It is scenario training, quite frankly I don't give a damn what you say because I've heard it all before. It seems like every trad JJ or ninjutsu school claims their version of scenario training is better or more realistic.

The only point I'm making is that you'd be a better fighter using a training method of full-contact sparring. That is all, and that is proven fact. This sentiment has been echoed from Bruce Lee to the Gracies to the Muay Thai movement and even with the Straight Blast Gym today.

At the same time, I also believe we are all entitled to do whatever we want to. So you like trad jj, fine. I never said it was crap. Of course it works. Keep doing it. I'm just pointing out, some training methods work better(of course, there is a price to pay for this; hard training). That is all, no beating around the bush.

[mild7]

Simply presenting a point here buddy. Once again, I emphasize that I am NOT saying trad jj is crap. all martial art can work. I just feel it can be improved.

I have rolled with some guys from a trad jj school that makes fullcontact sparring/grappling part of its syllabus, and the guys are tough.

[GrappleorWrestle]

well see every style can be improved... Thats why you see everyone putting there own touch here and there.

[YODA]

VERY well said that man! :D

[Aegis]

Originally posted by mild7
e.g. "we have done this to improve our MA." "PROVE IT!!" "Oh, we can't, we don't believe in doing things fullcontact"

and thus, the circle of ignorance and theoretical claims go on. Some good, some bad.

Or instead you could look at the fact that many people in my style have successfully defended themselves against both armed and unarmed attackers. I think that pretty much says it all really.

[Snakescales]

I don't understand people that try to defend "their" style so much...you study martial arts to be effective in a situation that you should avoid in the first place and for all the other benefits that come with it, not to bicker about what's better or not, if you believe a certain style works better for you, just do it and let other people do their thing. It's important to think of the efficiency of your style as it applies to you and the context of your training. Who cares what's better as long as you feel that you get what you needed out of your martial art and you feel that you're effective in it.

-A.

[mild7]

WELL...

the topic is, 'Brazilian vs Traditional Ju jitsu for self defence'.

So of course, we're all going to chip in and say what we think is better. So no tree-hugging hippy stuff going on here!!

At the same time some respect is needed. In almost every post of mine I always state that trad jj is a good art. Somehow Aegis keeps on thinking that I am saying his beloved art does'nt work. Maybe it's a sign of insecurity, but it certainly is strange.

I am simply presenting a fact here, that full-contact sparring is a must if anyone is serious about functionality of an art. That is all.
By this statement, I am saying that I believe that BJJ is a better art for selfdefense. I am NOT saying that Trad JJ does not work.



just to stir the pot a little(I like debates),

Aegis wrote, "Or instead you could look at the fact that many people in my style have successfully defended themselves against both armed and unarmed attackers. I think that pretty much says it all really."

My answer is, that the problem with this is that every art is going to say the same thing. Which is no problem, because like I have stated from day 1, ALL martial arts can work. It is just about what will work better, and for who. That is why both BJJ and trad jj will always have a place in MA.

[Aegis]

I'm not going to post any more in defence of my training methods, as you seem to disagree with them on principle. However, I would like to point out that you accuse me of somehow "thinking that his beloved art doesn't work" then in the next paragraph state:

I am simply presenting a fact here, that full-contact sparring is a must if anyone is serious about functionality of an art. That is all.
By this statement, I am saying that I believe that BJJ is a better art for selfdefense.

So basically you accuse me of getting the wrong end of the stick then go on to say that because you don't approve of my training methods that I must be an inferior fighter.

If you actually read what I've been trying to say, you will note that I have been putting across the view that your training method and my training method are two paths to the same point. You may think that your method is better than mine, but that is just your opinion. it is by no means fact. If you think your method is better, then great, keep training in it. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But don't go on about how my training is inferior to yours. Remember, just because it's different doesn't make it a bad thing. Try to be a little more open minded.

[totality]

Don't try to tell me that you guys do that. Because if you did... that is fullcontact sparring my friend, as is seen in arts like Muay Thai and BJJ(particularly the Vale Tudo portion)

hmm...i don't seem to recall competition bjj ever including striking...most training doesn't involve striking, in fact, the whole principal behind judo (which is what bjj is actually based on) is to remove the more dangerous elements of combat from training so that you could become very efficient at grappling/submissions. and to say that vale tudo is a part of bjj is most definitely NOT true. vale tudo is totally seperate from bjj, although bjj is often used as a part of vale tudo training.

so basically, mild7, you've just said that BOTH jjj and bjj are less effective than vale tudo. good job, i'm proud of you...because you're right.

[mild7]

totality,
I was referring the 'fullforce' nature of the sparring. But anyway, you're right, Vale Tudo is more effective on the street!

about vale-tudo and the link with BJJ it is simple. BJJ as you know is made up of three components: selfdefence, sport jiujitsu and valetudo. Under the traditional Gracie curriculum this is what is practiced, Vale Tudo normally being practiced to a much lesser extent though.(e.g. like when someone is specifically preparing for a NHB match)

Of course, in modern times people have begun to realise that to do well in No-rules you really need to be a complete fighter. So "Vale-Tudo", "submission fighting" etc schools have opened up which are not BJJ schools, but they incorporate the whole fight game, i.e. Muay Thai, Wrestling, BJJ, etc.

So I hope you know where I'm coming from. I'm simply saying that in BJJ(particularly the ones that adhere to the Gracie training method) Vale Tudo is part of the syllabus, although becoming rare. I do agree that going to a dedicated Vale-tudo class would be a much better option for NHB.



Aegis,

you say "that because you don't approve of my training methods that I must be an inferior fighter. "

Yup!

you say "you will note that I have been putting across the view that your training method and my training method are two paths to the same point."

Maybe... but i'm referring to efficacy here. A training method that utilises full-contact sparring will undoubtedly reach higher levels of efficiency than not. Of course, a training method NOT using fullcontact sparring can still produce people who can handle themselves in a real situation, so if that is what you are referring to then yes, both our preferred training methods CAN lead to some self-defence proficiency.

you say "But don't go on about how my training is inferior to yours. Remember, just because it's different doesn't make it a bad thing. Try to be a little more open minded."

WELL.... I do believe a method devoid of fullcontact sparring is inferior. I AM openminded but at the same time no one is going to convince me that a Cavalier is faster than a Ferrari. I do however, appreciate that they are both cars than get the job done, at different gas prices.

happy training.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by mild7
I AM openminded

I very much beg to differ. You are being as closed minded as they come. To you it's either your way or a worse way. That is not openmindedness, it's just egotism.

Enjoy your own training.

[mild7]

QUESTION: Which is the faster car, a Ferrari Modena or a Cavalier?

ANSWER: The ferrari.



now...

QUESTION: who becomes a better fighter, a guy who spars fullcontact or a guy who does scenario training?

ANSWER: the guy who spars fullcontact.


Still don't get it? OK. Here's a story. Two guys want to swim in the ocean. The first guy goes to a school which tells him, Ok son, you want to swim in the ocean, first thing is to go and swim in the pool.(full contact sparring)
Second guy goes to another school. The school here tells him, man, don't waste your time swimming in a pool, it's not the same as the ocean. Instead, here, we will teach you how to do the swimming motions in the air, there's no need to get into the water! (scenario training)
So of course, both guys will still be better off than the average guy when it comes to swimming in the ocean. But logic will tell you that the guy who has experienced swimming in a pool will do better.

I AM openminded. I believe that scenario-based training IS excellent for people who are not fit enough, or who just don't like the idea of full-contact sparring. But at the same time, I don't believe you can reach the same level of excellence as someone who DID use fullcontact sparring.
I still don't see what is so difficult about understanding that.

[mild7]

I guess what you really want me to say, Aegis, is that scenario-based training can produce fighters of the same caliber as guys who spar fullcontact.

That is really what you want me to say. But you and me both know that is a lie. If it was'nt, modern NHB fighters would all be learning trad JJ and would not be engaging in any sparring. Which is the contrary.

Maybe it is you who is closeminded. There is no honesty in your logic.

[Aegis]

Why not just accept that I have my training method and that I don't consider it any less efficiant than yours? You don't have to agree, but then I wouldn't expect you to. Needless to say I will continue to train as I have done for some time now, and will continue getting better at self defence as I do so. I certainly don't need your approval, and nor does anyone else.

I don't see any further use for arguing, neither of us is going to see the other's point of view. I suggest we both just walk away and agree to disagree.

[totality]

in the beginning, there was jjj...and it was good. but then kano said "wait...getting my hair pulled and being poked in the eyes sucks. i think i'll remove it that crap."
and so kano made judo, and judo was good. and kano said "wait...i want to have an olympic sport."
and so kano sent maeda to america, and it was (almost) good. but maeda was rejected, and so he journeyed forth to the land of naked women and bananas. and in this brazil, he spread his knowledge to the gracies, and brazilian jiu-jutsu was born. and it was good.
and so the japanese used their style to fight others, and the brazilians theirs. but in the end, there will always be me. and i will always win.

i hope you all enjoyed that story :D

[mild7]

I like stories.

[Taliar]

Just to throw a cat amoung the pigeons, watch some of jeremy clarksons videos, in one they take a cavalier ( i think) and £2000 and fix it up and race it against a sports car, and it whips its ass.

IN both styles you must practise things at a slowed down rate at first, then speed up. Full contact sparring and some one coming at you full on sound pretty much the same to me apart from maybe the FC sparring goes on for longer.

But I don't have much experience with either so I may be wrong.

[animefreak88]

its not uncommon for someone to force you down to the ground though in a fight. i'll ask my friend where he got this statistic, but supposedly, 98% of all street fights end up on the ground at some point. for this reason, my friend who i got this statistic from takes BJJ to compliment his karate. i know from working with him, its a pretty good combo. so, i would say take the BJJ in addition to the kickboxing. but since they're all at the same place, you could go and work out at the TJJ class every now and then. just because you'll primarily take one, doesn't mean the other is forbidden.

[Aegis]

i'll ask my friend where he got this statistic, but supposedly, 98% of all street fights end up on the ground at some point. for this reason, my friend who i got this statistic from takes BJJ to compliment his karate.
This statistic is one of the most abused in the martial arts world. The actual figure is more like "60% of police arrests following a scuffle or worse are made on the floor" in one particular city.

[animefreak88]

i wasn't sure, hence why i admitted that i needed to trace it back some. but a lot of the street fights i've seen have ended up on the ground.

[EarthElement]

Thats why you get up!! :rolleyes:

[Yama Tombo]

Say that when you have another man about 200 or something pounds on top of you in a fight and pounding your face in with his fist!

[Fallacio]

That's why you armbar that fool until you hear a soggy popping kind of noise and he starts crying/soils himself, at which point you throw him aside and jump to your feet, glaring about like a wild-eyed madman.

I chime in in support of BJJ. There's simply nothing better at taking the vast majority of would-be fighters out of their element and putting a most serious hurt on. I don't study it personally, but I've got nothing but love for the jits.

Vale Tudo would also be a spectacular choice, but you don't sound like the kind of guy who'd enjoy getting punched in the face a lot.

[Ghost Frog]

I know the original question dealt with a street situation, but I'd like to broaden it out a little. :)

Many people study small chunks of martial arts as part of their job e.g. in mental health or the police. In contrast to a streetfighting situation which presumes that you need to hurt your opponent badly to get away, much of this training revolves around restraining people who may be very drunk or wildly aggessive, but who you are still not supposed to punch in the nads.

Many people in nursing would not been keen on the idea of full contact training. Do we refuse to train them or do we adapt things so that they can get some useful stuff? The restrictions on training restraint techniques full-on are far less than other areas, as you would be very restricted in real life anyway (especially if CCTV is present and the customer has a litigous family). However, equipped with a reasonably robust training partner, you can safely try out all the techniques in a moderately realistic way.

The scenario in this case is, "can I get them on the floor and restrained using this technique with only legal strikes to help". Examples of legal strikes are knee strikes to the outside of the thigh and other similar painful but non-lethal areas. Obviously, these can be safely be practised full-contact until your partner can no longer stand up and refuses to talk to you anymore.

My (very short) younger sister is a psychiatric nurse with no martial arts training other than fighting with me when younger and 3 hours worth of Control and Restraint courses at college, and she will happily take anyone down to the ground and has used these techniques at work with a degree of success. Bear in mind that most of them are designed to be two-onto-one techniques as well.

However, being amazing in any art does not really prepare you for dealing with an angry person who does not care about your safety. There are a lot of additional psychological pressures in dealing with this, and they vary tremendously from situation to situation, so it is difficult to know how you will react. Geoff Thompson has done a lot of good work on this subject, but since most people, particularly women are unlikely to want to take part in 'animal day' style events, the only other solution is to do drill basic striking and grappling techniques at different ranges, then encourage people to learn more about body movement through sparring at different ranges and from different positions.

As has been pointed out above, the traditional scenario where 'he hits you like this, then he hits you like this' is going to give you little help against a mad person as they will not attack just like your uke did in class. But they are equally unlikely to attack like a BJJ black belt either, so it is important to keep a balance in our self-defence training so that we don't concentrate too heavily on moves that block counters that only a skilled martial artist will know and instead seek to be better at making the best of whatever situation presents itself.

Anyway , enough of me wittering on. I think what I'm trying to say is:
1) Not everybody is going to want to train full-contact.
2) The people least likely to are probably those who need to the most.
3) Therefore, there needs to be some middle ground between old-fashioned scenario training and full-contact sparring.
4) And learn the basics. Well.
5) Whatever class allows you to fulfill the above and that you enjoy enough to keep training regularly works. :)

[Jiraiya]

You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, so find a combination of arts that suits you (as you've said you are going to do) and you'll be more likely to stick with it.

I can't comment on the JJ/BJJ differences-- well, I can, but I wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. But as far as workouts go, don't overdo it. I wouldn't recommend working out and MA training on the same day unless you are particularly fit. You might be more likely to injure yourself if you hit the weights hard and then train the same day. At the very least don't do these things one right after another unless you are sure you can handle it. But as other posters have said, you should already be getting a pretty good workout in just the MA classes alone.

Good luck and have fun!

[EarthElement]

Ok, so i guess what mild7 was saying makes sense. If you don't get the whole 9 yards of combat your not gunna be as good as someone who did. I think what aegis is saying, is that their method is full contact right? So aegis is gettin the whole 9 yards right? Or are you saying your method not being full contact works. If your saying that than your could be right. We have not seen your method so it is not up to us to say how well it works. usually, if its not completly full contact sparring, its takes a little longer to get the same results. maybe aegis's method doesn't, we dont know. :cool:

[cybermonk]

You can argue this point all you want but nothing is truly full contact. If its truly full contact you dont stop when the guy submits to your armbar, you break his arm. How do you know that you can actually break his arm from that position? Its still mainly theoretical. Dont get me wrong, I am in favor of "full contact" but putting full contact sparring at the level of a real life confrontation is not very wise. No one in your sparring class is trying to kill you or maim you, no matter how hardcore you think your training is. You want real full contact? Let your sparring partner take out a live blade and come at you with intent to put a few inches in you, then you can truly say your training best prepares you for combat.

[Timmy Boy]

There seems to be a lot of variation between "full contact" schools, all of which claim you can't fight without doing full contact sparring. At what level is the sparring supposedly "full" enough to teach you to fight? Are we talking throwing each other on mats like at my judo club, battering heads repeatedly in boxing, or smashing our knees into people's ribs in muay thai? Surely there has to be more to martial arts training than how hardcore your sparring is, otherwise muay thai fighters would win all the time!

As for ground fighting, I appreciate its value for if you get floored, but it's not nearly as likely to happen as the Gracies make out. If it was, all fighting styles everywhere would have worked this out from day one and groundfighting would be a huge part of all of them. More to the point, we'd all know that from experience! But it isn't. They tell you that 98% of them or whatever end up on the floor to make you think that you have to learn their style to survive in a street fight. Groundfighting is useful but I know I'd rather devote most of my training to fighting standing up.

[EarthElement]

actually id say its a matter of preference, as for how "hardcore" the sparring is, just enough to let you practice how to see a punch before it gets to you, and what to do in response. thats all u need really.

[shootodog]

it's the shooter not the gun!!!

i took traditional jjj in shintoryu before and have cross trained in bjj. both have their pros and cons. both are effective. in the end, what works is what's important. if you can't get it to work for you then you're dead.

[EarthElement]

dead???? :eek:

[cybermonk]

They tell you that 98% of them or whatever end up on the floor to make you think that you have to learn their style to survive in a street fight. Groundfighting is useful but I know I'd rather devote most of my training to fighting standing up.

I think its 60% but its only police related cases. When they try to arrest someone and they resist 60% go to the floor for obvious reasons.

[shootodog]

dead???? :eek:


it does say "self defense".

[cxw]

its not uncommon for someone to force you down to the ground though in a fight. i'll ask my friend where he got this statistic, but supposedly, 98% of all street fights end up on the ground at some point.

I can only speak from fights that I've seen, but only around 20% of fights end up with both people on the ground. Perhaps 98% end with one on the ground - but not both.

There's no data to come up with statistics on what happens on the street in terms of ground, clinch, punches, kicks etc.