Take the Hapkido Macdojang Quiz!

[shadow warrior]

1. Does the Hapkido school where you train accept any and ALL students willing to pay and join?

2. Were you required to pay an initiation surcharge, a full year of fees (or MUCH more), buy a uniform, patches and or additional equipment immediately apon signing up?

3. Were you instructed to attend the school only at very limited specific times?

4. Have you been pressured to sign up for special costly Black Belt or Master's programs?

5. Are their significantly more students in the total population under 16 than over 25, and are there numerous black belts under the age of 16?

6. Are you required to grade for a higher rank every few months and does virtually EVERY student pass, regardless of skill?

7. Does the 'average" student require LESS than four years to grade through levels (10 + with increasing testing fees at each), to achieve a black belt?

8. Do the Hapkido students basically kick with the same motions as Tae Kwon Do practitioners?

9. Are the classes very large, your personal space small and one on one instruction (unless you pay for 'private' training) very limited?

10. Do YOU in your heart feel more like a revenue stream (the club uses an outside billing company for example), with a member number than an aspiring martial artist?

BONUS QUESTION FOR EXTRA INSIGHT:
Does the instructor claim unrealistic Dan Rankings in Hapkido and/or MORE styles for a person of their age?

***IF YOU ANSWERED A DEFINITIVE 'YES' TO FIVE OR MORE OF THESE QUESTIONS..YOU ARE PROBABLY TRAINING IN A HAPKIDO FAST FOOD CLUB, A MACDOJANG!


Of course there could be some unusual exceptions.
However, if you answered YES to eight or more of these questions, there can be no doubt.

If you have any more questions which might help people to answer the basic question post away..

[Thomas]

I've been thinking about this post since you put it up. It's really good to point out things that will tip students off that they have stumbled on a "bad school". I am impressed that there tare that many Hapkido schools in the artea that would warrant a "Watch Out List"! I have found Hapkido schools pretty hard to find (even in Korea!) Are there a lot of schools in your area... and how many "good" ones are there?

Along the lines of "Things to Watch Out For at Hapkido Schools" (and other schools), check out the McDojo thread (pretty good) and I will tell you why I left my first Hapkido school in Korea.

I was introduced to the school by the local Police Captain (who was friends with the master). The Master was fairly well-known in Korea and was quite an impressive teacher. My first class was really educational and I signed on for a month (and bought the uniform). After I paid, things changed:
(1) The master stopped teaching, preferring to sit in his office and smoke or chat with buddies.
(2) The Sabeomnim was really good but finally got sick of being left in charge of the school everyday for no pay, recognition, or break...
(3) By the end of the month, classes were being conducted by Yellow and Green belts.

At that point, I walked down the road and stumbled upon a new Hapkido dojang just opening up. I talked to the master and he recruited me in a strange way. He sadi "I respect your master but you can join me if you agree to my terms. We train twice a day... morning and night and you cannot miss class without my permission. You will work hard and I will be your teacher. Sometimes, the Sabeomnim will teach and you will respect him the same as me. The choice is yours but you must decide now." I joined and loved it.

[BSR]

Originally posted by shadow warrior
[B]1. Does the Hapkido school where you train accept any and ALL students willing to pay and join?

I disagree with some of these, like this one. Why should a school discriminate against anyone who is willing to learn the art? I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you think prospective student should have to pass some entrance examination before being allowed to attend class?

5. Are their significantly more students in the total population under 16 than over 25, and are there numerous black belts under the age of 16?

A lot of people got their start in the martial arts when they were kids. In fact, most schools I'm aware of have larger childrens' classes than adult classes. I think that's fairly normal.

Although I agree about seeing a lot of young black belts. That kind of puts me off.


7. Does the 'average" student require LESS than four years to grade through levels (10 + with increasing testing fees at each), to achieve a black belt?

At my school, the quickest you can reach black belt is approximately 3 years. That's only for someone who attends class at least twice a week and does not struggle excessively with the techniques (and of course does not fail any of the belt testings). Considering that in many schools in Asia, you can get a black belt in a year, I don't think taking less than 4 years to get a black belt is a sign of a McDojang.

[SaJooNim]

BSR wrote...

<<Why should a school discriminate against anyone who is willing to learn the art?>>

Its got nothing to do with discrimination, really. I've turned away students before. A couple that I can think of were because the people flat refused to bow (either standing or kneeling), due to their religious beliefs. And in spite of careful, lengthy explanation as to why its done and that it has got nothing to do with showing any sort of subservience or any sort of worship to any deity, they still refused. We respectfully parted ways at that point.

I've turned away other students because I felt that their intentions were not in the right place. Still others, because they simply refused to lead a reasonably healthy lifestyle -- drugs and too much drinking dont win people points with me.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[47Ronin]

Haha, I already knew I was at a Mcdojang, but i took the test anyways and had a perfect score. That is why I am going to a Uechi Ryu school when my contract is over.

[SaJooNim]

Uechi Ryu -- now there is a style that generally trains incredibly hard. Rigorous body conditioning, etc. Why is it that demanding training is accepted and acceptable for one style (like Uechi-Ryu) and not for another (like Hapkido or TKD)???

Why is it that someone who teaches an Okinawan style of Karate in a traditional manner is respected... and when someone tries to do the same thing with Hapkido or Taekwondo, they're called barbaric?!?

[Jointlock]

Here are some additional quiz questions that you might need to look out for.

1. Does more than half of your curriculum come from what your instructor learned from video tapes.

2. Did your instructor go away for 4 weekends and then come back with a fifth Dan in Hapkido matching his 5th dan in Tae kwon do. With no previous experience with Hapkido

3. Does the instructor say that Hapkido is Tae kwon do and Aikido combined.

4. Does the instructor say that Hapkido requires very little conditioning, and all you need to know is the techniques to be able to defend yourself.

5. Does the instructor claim to have designed the secret Navy Seal special forces fighting style that is so secret that they don't mention his name on any government website, and he was actually just a reservist in the coast Guard.

6. You learn the all of the techniques you need to know for your first belt in the first day, and you do them just as good as the black belts in the class.

7. You never stretch your muscles or joints in class, and never are taught how. Half of the students are out with sore joints half the time.

8. There are Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris Movie posters all over the walls.

9. Everyone in the Dojang laughs when your instructor trys to say Korean words.

10. The instructor claims that they are teaching an unchanged style that is over 2000 years old used by the ancient Silla warriors.

I could probably go on but I think that should be enough.

[shadow warrior]

Age requirement..why?

First: No person under the age of about 13 should be introduced to small joint manipulation. Their joints are NOT fininshed forming yet and repeated twisting can result in a lifetime of pain and misery..especially if the school lets ANYONE join and participate. It only takes an eyeblink of time to require a right handed person to learn how to write with their left.

Second: It is one thing to expose a child to cheezy punching and kicking in some Macdojang, but joint manipulation, pressure point knowledge and Ki development are NOT suited to imature young people who's understanding of consequences are suspect. It is one thing when a child bloodies a school mates nose in a scrap over a soccer ball, it is entirely another matter when when joint dislocations and nerve damage could be the result.

Solution; Send young people to a high standards Judo or the Korean version Yudo club, until they are mature enough to treat techniques with the respect that they require. They NEVER give black belts to students under 16.

Adult screening of students. Why?

Knowledge is power..not ALL people should be permitted to acquire it. However, someone with the right moral character could always open up a chain of schools marketed directly at gangsters, gangbangers and druggies..now THAT is a market just waiting to be served!


Minimum four Years to black belt! Why?

I was going to specify five but the average career of a Hapkido hobbiest is far less then that, so I took a year off, so as not to appear too hard core. Three years training two - three times per week - it is impossible to achieve any type of physical, mental, emotional never mind spiritual integration. Black belt is NOT an END to people's journey in Hapkido, but it must PREPARE them for much more difficult tasks ahead.

Just because one can receive a black belt in one year at some "magic" Dojang does not make a three year term any less ridiculous. I tell my potential students that if you want a black belt and that is why you are going to train..go
to the martial arts supply store and buy one for $20. It is cheaper in every way and you can show it off to all your friends. Don't forget to have it engraved with your name and DAN Ranking, extra $30 - $50 depending on how much writing you can't understand you want on it.

I stand by ALL of my quiz questions..

Another good indication of a Macdojang is the instructors uniform, (forgot about that). If it has more in common with a fireworks display or the flag of your country than plain black and/or white..you need to call the fashion police and walk out the door..

[Tosh]

Originally posted by shadow warrior


Just because one can receive a black belt in one year at some "magic" Dojang does not make a three year term any less ridiculous.

Hmmm So what you are saying is 3 years to black belt is ridiculous. :confused:

People put too much stock in the words "black belt" it's just another colour, another flag in the road. At the end of the day it's ability that counts not the length of time trained.

P.s. I run a large class 30+ in a small hall... sue me for being popular!

McDojo??=>Training 2 sessions a week for a year = £40/$62 CAD.

Theres now a horrible trend, like in all things, when popularity comes, people cry "sell out" or "McDojo"!! Sometimes it's unwarranted you know! :D

[Freeform]

Ha Tosh! I knew it, your running a McDojang! :D

4. Have you been pressured to sign up for special costly Black Belt or Master's programs?


I don't understand how people can fall for this claptrap!!!

[Thomas]

Even though it may seem a bit conservative in view, I have to say I loved your last post here. Different schools may do it differently but I agree pretty much with everything you said with one exception:

I don't think there should be a mandatory time requirement of 4 years for black belt. I think it should depend on training hours, dedication, etc. However, as you are talking about YOUR OWN SCHOOL, I see no problem with that. In this way, you can be assured that your blackbelts will meet your expectations and you will be asured of their dedication.

Now, if you were to ask me how long to reach black belt... I would have to say at least 2.5 to three years for a student who comes to every class (doubles sometimes) and works hard. So I guess a round figure of 4 years isn't that unrealistic. I do think the "internal" factors of a black belt candidtae are more important than the physical. A student may "learn" all of the moves in a year, BUT they may not be ready to use them as they should. 4 years to black belt? Not a bad estimate.

As for denying students the right to join a school, my reply is "It's my school and I choose who I teach OR not teach". If I had my own club or were head instructor, I will retain the right to deny training to anyone I choose. Even now, as "senior instructor" in Taekwondo, my recommendation to the master of not keeping a student would be honored.

[shadow warrior]

You are teaching ITF TKD not Hapkido! I received my ITF black belt directly from General Choi HIMSELF at a testing here in Ontario in the mid 70's with less then TWO YEARS training. I used it for wallpaper! That is like saying beer has the same alcoholic content as single malt scotch. Just don't be telling your students who received their black belts in three years that they can fight outside of a tournament setting. Their demise will be on your head...This is exactly what this thread is about..you are involved in a recreational hobbiest club with Macdojang overtones. If you make this clear to your students there will be no problems later.


I have NEVER promoted a student to black belt in my club with less than 2000 hours of training time. This is my standard. I do not expect anyone else to pay ANY attention, unless they are curious to know why my students can do what they can do!

[John_IHF]

well ofcourse when your started out in hapkido or any type of martial art you would need your tobok and thats about it Sure you can buy from a different place but our toboks have Hapkido in the back in korean letters. I mean there are really certain things that every school has that a mc dojang has too, but seriously there are alot of mc dojang schools that claim to be 5th dan and up and have no regestration in korea as a 5th dan and up. Most people in USA are like 1st dans and just open their school because they can do that in america the government will not get you for that

[shadow warrior]

Credibility in all of its diversified forms must be considered in the quest to identify MacDojangs. Who would believe ALL of the requirements for 7th degree under the Korean Hapkido Federation for example? In the province where I live, that person would be a registered accupuncturist, massage therapist, herbalist. They would also be a master swordsman, expert in short medium, long stick, cane, belt, rope, rock thowing, archery and capable of dynamic KI demonstrations..these accomplishments in addition to ALL of their other Hapkido, free fighting and teaching skills..indeed..It would take a person many lifetimes to be capable of being an expert in ALL of these things.

I have asked many 'new' generation 7th degrees how they achieved this remarkable diversity of skills..some had good knowledge of pressure points(but never tried accupuncture), and/or a rudemantary understanding of massage, and/or a smattering of herbal information, non had deep knowledge of each and every area. Most of them had NEVER even been introduced archery from horseback, even if they had a few hours practice with the Korean bow at some seminar...or been in any dynamic live blade demostrations, never mind a live blade sparring session.

They told me that you can get requirement 'waivers' for the right circumstances. They were never very forthcoming as to what these circumstances might be.

There is only one conclusion which can be deduced from this ..NOT MANY new Masters with 7th degree or higher were EVER capable of passing ALL of the listed test requirements..so why adopt them?

We should keep in mind that Master Choi himself could NOT produce ANY Dan or Teaching certificates himself..The ONLY reason people paid him so much to teach them, was the man could and did beat the snot out just about everyone, (students and foes alike).

To observe the teacher's students and see true dicipline, fitness, technical Hapkido and free fighting skills as well as a positive attitude to others, will tell you much more about a school than how much a teacher payed for degree ranking in political and or monetary currencies. The partronage of buddies is as rampant in the US as it is in Korea.

One might ask why so many of the second generation Hapkido Masters are today running their own independent schools/organizations? Why are there so many Hapkido Kwans? Some of these "NEW" Kwans being granted in the past few years were chartered to people who can not even trace their personal training roots directly to Korea.

The standards in Korea have followed those in other places..down..black belts in one two years are common. (One of my students earned his in eighteen months at a well know Kwan headquarters when he was there three years ago teaching English).

We must be sharp eyed and keen to ask the instructors details about their own personal history and who passed what skills onto them.

Primary free fighting skills are the real currencies of Hapkido. Without this basic application of diversified technical skills, what is being practiced is NOT Hapkido within the context Master Choi and others emphasized.

Look at the skill sets of an "average" student to gleen clues as to the quality of the school on the continuum of quantity vs quality.

Even a high Dan ranking from Korea is no guarantee of learning practical Hapkido! Use your eyes and brian to apply the essence of the Mac Dojang quiz..

[beth]

Like anything that tries to describe the nature of something, this list should be taken as a guideline, but not definitive. I think all of the points people are making are good but there will always be exceptions to the rule. I received my 1st dan when I was under 16 as did several other students at my school. Even after an almost 4 year hiatus from training (due to moving around a lot), I still had better technique and power than many of the people I have trained with since. One was certainly a McDojang...it was a university McDojang. I think that university programs are very susceptible to McDojang-ality. Students are only there for 3-4 months, then have a 1-3 month break and are probably just filling a phys ed requirement anyway.

[Thomas]

(1) Does the master, instructors and students put other schools and styles down?

(2) Does the master and instructors brag about theirs being the best style, or the 'purest' style, or claim to be the only style that does such and such?

(3) Do you find the master, instructors, and students full of themselves, instead of HUMILITY?

If you answer "yes" to these, you may wish to train elsewhere...

[hapkiyoosool]

As far as what Shadow Warrior said in <<Age requirement..why?>> I agree. We only have one student under 15 and he is 11. An exceptional 11 year old. We only take students after they have a "try out" and see what their mental status is. We have the "model psycho killers" come in all the time and want to learn. Not going to happen. Black belt before 16? No way! you're right.

We run a very tight traditional school. I teach exactly how I learned in Korea. We have a great time though too. BIG difference between and "instructor" and "teacher".

Just to let you guys know about our seminar (again). November 14 & 15. It's listed on our website located at the link below my signature.

I like this forum, I love Hapkido. (not as much as my wife though)

[Bulldog]

As someone who never has trained in Hapkido I am curious now...
I have never been to a Hapkido school, but, I have met a hapkido black belt some time ago...

I know that we all want there to be responsibility in the arts.
I would have to say that in general, instructors are as good as their maturity. I have seen 1st degree black belts who are more mature and better teachers than 5th dans...

I always take senior ranking with a grain of salt. I don't have any problem with a 40 year old being a 7th dan. As long as he didn't start 5-10 years ago...But, everyone is different when it comes to their dedication. We only require a Doctor to attend about 12 years of school before we allow them to fully practice their skills on the human body...Are they experts? No...do most if not all Doctors continue their education and learning, of course...I would hope it is the same for most if not all martial artists...

I got my black belt in 1991...and thought I had arrived at the age of 19...(insert snickers from older and wiser folks here)...Now, at 31...I look back and see how little I really knew and understood...Today, I know more...I understand more...but, it has nothing to do with how many stripes I put on my belt or what certificates I hang on the walls...It's in your head and in your heart...

I guess I can see the whole McDojo dilema...And I do know from personal experience that anyone can join any number of organizations and be cross ranked or "promoted" in another art for time in...

You can give a man/woman a rank and a certificate...and that's all they will ever be...
If you give that man/woman wisdom and knowledge...those certificates and rank recognitions start meaning less and less...

At least that's the way it is for me...

PS...

I would love to find a Hapkido school in Central Ilinois...anyone know of a great teacher?

Thanks,

Aaron

[Thomas]

Nice post, Bulldog...

For me, something I look for in other black belts and instructors is how they act in the dojang. In my opinion, you should work hard no matter what your rank is. I hate to see senior black belts sitting in the back of the room just watching all of the time without actively participating. (By actively participating, it can be verbal and/or physical, as long as they are sharing their wisdom)

I think it is very important that the senior ranks share their knowledge with students. If you train in GM So-and-So's dojang but are actually taught by some of his 1st and 2nd dans... you shouldn't really claim to be GM So-and-So's student, should you?

As an instructor, whether I am teaching or not, I hold my position in the ranks and train as hard as I can evry class, whether I am directing or following the class. It's important to rememebr that no matter how long you've been training or what rank you hold that you must keep practicing hard and remember that there is always something you can learn from anyone...

[hapkiyoosool]

I like this and agree whole heartedly!!!

Posted by Thomas
<<As an instructor, whether I am teaching or not, I hold my position in the ranks and train as hard as I can every class, whether I am directing or following the class. It's important to rememebr that no matter how long you've been training or what rank you hold that you must keep practicing hard and remember that there is always something you can learn from anyone...>>

I teach ALL of my classes. From time to time, I do have the 1 Dans and up do the warm-ups for their leadership training but, the rest of the class is my responsibility.

I feel that all the GM so and so's are so grossley overweight because they feel they don't need to train anymore. WRONG!!!

We need to be great followers in order to be good leaders.
Following our own examples. Preach what you practice.

[Bulldog]

Last two posts really should be eyeopeners for students and teachers alike.

I have never understood why there begins a seperation between the senior ranks and lower ranks.

I guess I am fortunate to be associated with a GM and Soke who still teach all their classes.

I do think it is suitable for dan students to be given a class to teach so that the GM or Soke or whatever can observe the dan students ability to teach/share/instruct/correct...

In the words of...well...I don't know who said it...

Can't we all just get along? ha ha

Bulldog

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Thomas
(1) Does the master, instructors and students put other schools and styles down?

(2) Does the master and instructors brag about theirs being the best style, or the 'purest' style, or claim to be the only style that does such and such?

(3) Do you find the master, instructors, and students full of themselves, instead of HUMILITY?

If you answer "yes" to these, you may wish to train elsewhere...

Good post, think for asking a question I've had my particular brand of art attacked, assumptions about my school madeand a claim of superiority all from the same poster.

Martial Artist? More like Martial Arrogence!

Shadow warrior :D

Since you are so good at reading profiles shadow warrior you'd realise that I'm a guide for people that gives them advice, not some self appointed high degree handing out black belts. I do not grade them (albiet apart from the lowest of levels) and they get sent to other instructors to improve thier skill set. But at the end of the day you can think what you want..... I'll lose little sleep and I doubt any of my students reckon thier TKD abilities turn them into ass kicking SD machines.......but hey I encourage them to think for themselves so who knows?? :D

[hapkiyoosool]

My family in Korea called me to let me know that the KukkiWon in Korea has fallen victim to con-artists. The leaders of KukkiWon are in Jail for issueing FAKE Dan certificates to people outside of Korea, taking the money and NOT registering people. Embezzlement is what they call it. the investigation was completed not long ago and a judgment was passed.

You may want to check and see if your Dan rank in ITF, WTF, or anyone else conected with KukkiWon is legitimate.

I know a few people who have found out they are not Dan holders like they thought, thanks to the sneaky leaders at KukkiWon.

Sorry to all of you who have been scammed. I feel for you and you are in our prayers. I think the Korean Government is trying to recitfy the problem as quickly as possible.

I am not affiliated with KukkiWon, Have nothing to do with them since I am Hapkido only. But I will help if I can. Doubtful, but I can try. I have no pull in the TKD world.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool
You may want to check and see if your Dan rank in ITF, WTF, or anyone else conected with KukkiWon is legitimate.


ITF is not connected to Kukkiwon, there certificates were issued form ITF headquarters in Vienna befor 'the split'. At the end of the day a certificate proves nothing (we've had this discussion sooo many times).

It's ability not a piece of paper that counts.

[hapkiyoosool]

Good for the ITF. Like I said, I know nothing about the TKD rules nor people. I just passed along news that could effect unsuspecting victims.

Some people rely on their paper too much I'll agree. It gives you that piece of mind to know your Doctor or martial arts teacher is legitamate though.

It's nice to know your Doctor is good and proffessional, it nicer to know he is actually trained correctly and liscenced to take out your liver. Paper is important.

Would you fly in a commercial jet if your pilot(let's say BOB) had no FAA certification and wasn't liscenced to fly? BOB learned from an old WWII pilot in his garage just before he died, he taught BOB all the secrets of flying. Paper is important.

He's a nice guy but, I'll take the bus. :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool

Would you fly in a commercial jet if your pilot(let's say BOB) had no FAA certification and wasn't liscenced to fly? BOB learned from an old WWII pilot in his garage just before he died, he taught BOB all the secrets of flying. Paper is important.

He's a nice guy but, I'll take the bus. :D


To be fair when it comes to MA (or any sort of physical activity) i look for the Health and Fitness and First aid certificates first. i've much more faith in natioanlly recognised qualifications than international :D

[Thomas]

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool
My family in Korea called me to let me know that the KukkiWon in Korea has fallen victim to con-artists. The leaders of KukkiWon are in Jail for issueing FAKE Dan certificates to people outside of Korea, taking the money and NOT registering people. Embezzlement is what they call it. the investigation was completed not long ago and a judgment was passed.

You may want to check and see if your Dan rank in ITF, WTF, or anyone else conected with KukkiWon is legitimate.

I know a few people who have found out they are not Dan holders like they thought, thanks to the sneaky leaders at KukkiWon.

Sorry to all of you who have been scammed. I feel for you and you are in our prayers. I think the Korean Government is trying to recitfy the problem as quickly as possible.

I am not affiliated with KukkiWon, Have nothing to do with them since I am Hapkido only. But I will help if I can. Doubtful, but I can try. I have no pull in the TKD world.


That's a pretty scary post. Do you know of any source that has more details on this? I did a quick search of some US, World, and Korean news sites but couldn't turn up anything on this... any help would be appreciated. I'm going to copy this and post a thread in the Taekwondo section and see if anyone else has information as well. Thanks.

[hapkiyoosool]

Loo at the Korean Herald online. Use the search on teh site to find what you are looking for. It is in English as well as Korean.

I will do what I can here.

ALso try, SBS, MBC. KBS. and other Korean television sites too.

[shadow warrior]

Kukkiwon.
There have some very strange rumours about the certification proceedures at Kukkiwon within the Korean martial arts community here in Toronto for a few years. I spoke with a couple of Korean WTF Masters who I know here today and they are in the "no comment" phase, there must be something going on..who knows..nothing would suprise me..

Tosh!
I am sure that your students train hard and you pass on what you know with joy.

Youthfull enthusism is a wonderfull thing. If you feel a black belt is but a milestone and wish to move it close enough so that all may reach it, that is up to you. It is a good thing that your hobbiest students are aware of their skill level and you spend so much time instilling a conflict avoidance attitude in them. This will give you the moral high ground if anything were to happen to one of your students who beleived they knew self defense after a three year black belt course. Not many Tae Kwon Do teachers will make their students aware of this. It is also good that you send your students to other teachers to upgrade their skills as you upgrade yours.

"Martial arrogance" as you charge me with, is when someone says things which are not based in fact to inflate their own position. All I said was that it was not very difficult to get an ITF grading. In essence then, what makes the ITF so difference from WTF anyway??

One of the only adventages of getting on in years is that you have lived through what others know ONLY as ancient history.

My first master was a personal associate of the founder of the ITF, General Choi, who spent quite a few years here in Ontario after he fled (was kicked out of) Korea. Before you were born. I know that system, because I saw the FOUNDER of your system and senior black belts, demonstrate many times..He even came to Master Chung's club and taught some of the black belts a few times. If your skills are rooted in this group, I am very familiar with them. Perhaps one of the best known ORIGINAL Masters under General Choi still teaches here in Toronto, Master Park Jung Soo (whom I also know through a close friend of mine who at one time owned one of that Master's clubs).

Excerpt from interview with Chung Kee Tae conducted by Master Mike Wollmershauser, June 1998 (before MJM's death..)

MJM General Choi asked you to teach Hapkido for ITF Masters and spoke of incorporating Hapkido into Tae Kwon Do. Did General Choi put Hapkido in his book as a requirement for black belts?

CKT General Choi put it in his books for Tae Kwon Do people, students and teachers to see. To help the students understand self defence. Most ITF Tae Kwon Do people know there is some self defence in Tae Kwon Do, but they are NOT AWARE that it comes from Yu Sool (Hap Ki Do)..

When you have trained for much longer than you have been alive to date, you will come to realize that experience RULES. Never mistake knowledge and/or experience for arrogance...I never said anything about superiority, I just pointed out that three years for a black belt was ridiculous and that is just my experienced opinion..and will remain one of the questions on the macdogang quiz.

[hapkiyoosool]

I know that the ranking goes like this in our federation.

NO ONE gets a black belt until 16 yrs old.

1 Dan takes one year at 3 hours/day and 5 days/week. (student)

2 Dan take another 2 years. (Senior Student)

3 Dan takes another 3 years. ( Assistnat Instructor)

4 Dan takes 5 years. (Certified instructor)

5 Dan takes another 5 years. (Master)

So your looking at 16 years minimum for 5 Dan, at a minumum of 3 hours/day at 5 days/week at which means you can open a school with your Grandmasters blessing.

This is impossible in the U.S. We work to survive, not live. In America, you train two days a week for an hour and in an average of 4 years you get a 1 Dan and open a school.

How good are American martial arts compared to Korean? Very different.

I had a man told me this yesterday, "I will be as political as everyone else. No one is better, just different. That's what they told kids when they are growing up. You're not stupid, you're different."

This made me a little upset as you can imagine. This guy owns a school!!!!

You're as great as you make yourself. the only person keeping you from success is your self! You get out of it what you put in.

[Bulldog]

I have found nothing about his on the Korean Herald newspaper link you mentioned...

I typed in Kukkiwon and found four links, but, nothing mentions the accusations that have been brought up...

Anyone got anything else?

[ns_oni]

i did uechi ryu for a while, but i left because of some of this, in my opinion you should only pass a test if your fit and you train alot.
Here are some reasons why i left.

1)there was a child with the same belt grade as me.
2)He claimed that his style could beat anything (samurai, ninja)
3) he claimed that uechi ryu people threw away their weapons ran into battle breaking horses legs with their arms.
4)The classes were held in his shed.
5) noone in the classes was serious about the training.
6) Uechi Ryu wasnt his main style and he criticised me for doing other martial arts.

[47Ronin]

Originally posted by SaJooNim
Uechi Ryu -- now there is a style that generally trains incredibly hard. Rigorous body conditioning, etc. Why is it that demanding training is accepted and acceptable for one style (like Uechi-Ryu) and not for another (like Hapkido or TKD)???

Why is it that someone who teaches an Okinawan style of Karate in a traditional manner is respected... and when someone tries to do the same thing with Hapkido or Taekwondo, they're called barbaric?!?

Ever been to a mcdojang? Uechi takes the time for this type of training but if a mcdojang did it would it still be a mcdojang?

[hapkiyoosool]

I am having a really hard time also finding anything published about the KukkiWon incident. I watch Korean TV by Satellite with my wife everynight. That's where I saw it. ON SBS News. I am looking more.

Keep looking ppl! ^_^

[Spikedude]

i agree and disagree with some of what u said, but what i really think its hard to find a hapkido mcdojo

[mushim78]

I actually thing that what is very hard to do is to find a Hapkido dojang (Korean word, dojo is japannesse) that is real, many school will tell you about the pressure points and where they are, but never how to apply them within the technique and worse, what are the effects of them within the body... not even when you are a 3rd dan!!! That is a McDojang! I used to train in one, not anymore! To a certain point of time, the Master quit the school and left the teaching to the black belts, it was OK the first 2 weeks, but after the 2nd month and the continous Strenght Contest in the dojang,and continiously hearing that if I was hurting to take Tae Kwon Do, I just couldn't take it anymore :Alien:. I remember the first day I stepped in the mat I got kicked in the knee by a Yellow Belt as a welcome sign!!!:confused: Now I train in a REAL dojang and very glad and proud of it. The Master teaches every single class and dedicates his time to perfect the students techniques, specially the fresh white belts, this dedication to teaching and training made me stay and persevere in this great Art, even after I broke my foot!!!:D

Oh by the way, I train under Master Allen.

[macdojang]

MACdojang = Martial Arts Computer Dojang.

See for yourself at www.macdojang.com (http://www.macdojang.com)



cheers!

[Kwan Jang]

-I am definitely opposed to the watering down of standards within the martial arts, but with this poll like many of the one's I've seen here, the main criteria towards being a McDojang/ McDojo for most people is that other schools do things differently than their school does. I may even agree with some of the points brought up, but I keep on seeing this trend. It seems like an attitude of "our school is best and anyone who uses other methods is wrong"(provided of course that I am happy with my school/orgainzation.)
-To me there is nothing wrong with schools using modern educational methods and better business practices. I feel our industry could stand a lot more emphasis on professionalism. I came up under the hardcore traditional "old school" training and teaching methods and understand the value they had for me. However, these methods did NOT work for the vast majority of the students who came into the arts to gain the benefits that I have gained. I feel it is the instructors (or master instructors) responsibility to motivate and guide the students as much as it is the students. If an instructor is not helping a fairly high percentage of his/her students to reach high levels, then IMO that instructor needs to improve their teaching and motivational skills. I do realize that part of the burden does belong to the student and that you can only do so much, but that so much is far higher than most are willing to work hard enough as teachers to go.
-I think in the final analysis the factor that counts most of all is to look at the advanced students/black belts. What is their quality? What standards do they have to live up to to reach and maintain these levels? The path up the mountain may be different, but the view from the top is still the same. Another factor is how many black belts (at a high standard and not watered down) have you produced/graduated? Harvard/Oxford/Yale have very high standards, but they handle a large student body and have a high graduation rate. IMO any decent instructor can take the dedicated, athletic ("A -Student") student and make a great black belt out of them. A great instructor is one who can take the fat, lazy, uncoordinated kid ("C-Student") that many other schools would write off and make him/her into a black belt that ANY school would be proud to have as one of their own(or for that matter, the kid's parent or even grandparent). And to be able to do this on a consistant basis. Regardless of the methods used, to me at least, this is the bottom line.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-I think in the final analysis the factor that counts most of all is to look at the advanced students/black belts. What is their quality? What standards do they have to live up to to reach and maintain these levels? The path up the mountain may be different, but the view from the top is still the same.

Nice post! I really agree with this part the most. The senior belts and black belts really reflect the master/instructor the clearest... in every way from technique to attitude.

[shadow warrior]

Kwang Jang:

I learned in "hard core" environments (both training and application). I DO NOT expect my students to follow that path!

The athletic abilities of a student are not the major factor in achieving a fairly high level of skill, it is usually emotional and circumstantial.

The reason most well known institutions of higher learning have such superior students and high graduation rates is...drum roll...ENTRANCE STANDARDS..

At U of T here in Toronto, the average required for entrance to Arts and Science programs is a minimum 80% in high school. Pre Med is 95%..in sciences..

Not ALL people are suited to be involved in martial arts.

It is NOT a matter of which school does what ..which way..it is the basic attitude inherent in how school owners present and teach their art(s).

The Macdojang Quiz was posted to give potential students of Hapkido a chance to select a school closer to the joy of training and learning than just paying and changing the colour of their belt.

I stand by all the questions therein.

Warning.. opinion follows!!

The number of black belts a high level Master teacher produces has absolutely NOTHING to do with their teaching ability per se, but everthing to do with their personal STANDARDS. One person's black belt is another person's orange..

No ordinary "decent" level Hapkido teacher can produce a "great" black belt. They would not have the skill set!

[Kwan Jang]

-Ah, well. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. There are many instructors out there (not only in Hapkido, but in the martial arts world overall) who are graduating hundreds of black belts a year who have VERY high standards for their black belts (I do not know what your standards are and am not looking to make personal attacks, but odds are they honestly are probably at least as high or demanding as what you require).
-If you wish to improve the quality of your own teaching, visit some of the best instructors out there and see what they are doing; you may be able to model and replicate their success. People like Steve LaValle, Ernie Reyes, Sr. and many others. It would require an open mind and an attitude of wanting to correct rather than protect, but that is what is required for personal growth and what leads to mastery.

[shadow warrior]

Kwang Jang:

Oh, but I have seen some of the people you seem so keen on!

In addition I have watched a black belt testing from that group in Calf. about 10 years ago and have seen the 'Demo' team twice at events out there. I have an opinion actually based on seeing the standards achieved on display. What I saw had very little if anything in common with Hapkido!

Personal opinion is personal opinion..NO student should be promoted to black belt in Hapkido before they are 16 years of age..that my friend is just plain wrong! TKD, Karate or other styles can travel that road if they wish for whatever justified reasons. The JJA (Judo) and KHF (Hapkido) never promote children under 16 to black belt!

At the test I witnessed, many candidates were under that age..and passed!

This thread was started to help people make informed choices in deciding what type of school they would find true Hapkido training. Not robotic displays of rote technique. It was designed to assist people in making informed choices about the skill sets and attitudes of teachers and on what aspects they placed the most emphasis.

I think if you read your last post you would recognize a number of assumptions you have made about me, my experience, Hapkido knowledge, teaching ability, open mindedness and my personal black belt standards. All in few sentences.

It is you who 'protecting' the volume means success mantra. This is what is wrong today in martial arts, it is about the business aspect 'becoming' the definition of success.

I have absolutely NO desire to train every person who walks into my club. Therefore I screen each one of them for suitability.
Given, that I am capable of training my students to a very high proficiency level; how can I trust them? Because I know them PERSONALLY very well! It is not possible to know hundreds of black belts personally in this way in a lifetime never mind EVERY year..something has to give..

Hapkido comes from the inside out. It is NOT a robotic set of rote body motions..

True Hapkido comes through the understanding of human potential through natural body motion and processes. Personal growth is but a byproduct of these realizations.

We must make informed decisions about which environment might help us personally to 'realise our potential'!

[Thomas]

This is a great thread.... any other ideas on how to avoid Hapkido MacDojangs?

[moogong]

I would say beware of any instructor that says they teach hapkido but adds a long list of other art names they have included in the curriculum. If they still call the art "hapkido"..that's a bad sign. I don't think adding specific things is a bad idea but if it changes the guiding principles of the art...it fails to be the art.
Also, any hapkido school that claims they emphasize all ranges of fighting equally is a bad sign. Hapkido is very comprehensive but there is no way to make every aspect of fighting your strong point.

Just my two cents. :cool:

[wild_pitch]

"Also, any hapkido school that claims they emphasize all ranges of fighting equally is a bad sign."

I couldn't disagree more.. why would this be a bad thing?

[moogong]

"Also, any hapkido school that claims they emphasize all ranges of fighting equally is a bad sign."

I couldn't disagree more.. why would this be a bad thing?

Read the sentence that proceeds that.

I had to edit this to make myself clear. If a hapkido school told you they teach weapons, kicks, punches, joint locks, throws, ground techniqes, reality based self-defense, sport point fighting, full contact fighting, close range, long range, trapping range and every other aspect of martial arts equally, would you believe them? The key word is equally. I know I wouldnt. That's what attracted me to my school and my master. If you would believe that...fine.
I'm just stating my opinion.

[MacKiDo]

I think by "ranges of fighting" wild_pitch thought you meant standing striking, jumping striking, grappling etc. as opposed to fighting for different purposes (self defence vs sport-point).

If a school teaches well rounded fighters in any style they will need to be effective at different ranges and in types of techniques.

I don't think it would be unfair to say that there's a roughly equal emphasis placed on standing and ground techniques at the school wild_pitch and I train at.

[wild_pitch]

As usual Mac proves himself to be better at connecting those word type thingys into coherent sentences that convey ideas than I am.. =)

[Oldie]

When I took TKD, for a good 8 months, I took double classes three times a week, meaning about 24 to 28 classes per month. On that scehdule, my Master instructor told me that I would fly through the colored belt ranks to black belt in less than two years. There shouldn't be a set rule on how long a student must take classes before being allowed to take the black belt test. Not all students have the same commitment and intensity.

Of course, when I also became interested in two other martial arts during the same period of time, taking 24-28 TKD classes a month was getting more and more difficult. Eventually, those classes tapered off and, along with some injuries, it finally took 3 yrs and 8 months before I attained the 1st dan in TKD. At about the same time, I had also achieved the 1st brown belt in Modern Arnis, and packed in 2.5 yrs of Jeet Kune Do. Then into Combat Hapkido....

So it all depends on how regularly a student attends classes and how seriously the instructions are being practiced. If a student has reached the level of a black belt, he or she could be tested for the black belt.

Oldie

[MacKiDo]

When I took TKD, for a good 8 months, I took double classes three times a week, meaning about 24 to 28 classes per month. On that scehdule, my Master instructor told me that I would fly through the colored belt ranks to black belt in less than two years. There shouldn't be a set rule on how long a student must take classes before being allowed to take the black belt test. Not all students have the same commitment and intensity.

Of course, when I also became interested in two other martial arts during the same period of time, taking 24-28 TKD classes a month was getting more and more difficult. Eventually, those classes tapered off and, along with some injuries, it finally took 3 yrs and 8 months before I attained the 1st dan in TKD. At about the same time, I had also achieved the 1st brown belt in Modern Arnis, and packed in 2.5 yrs of Jeet Kune Do. Then into Combat Hapkido....

So it all depends on how regularly a student attends classes and how seriously the instructions are being practiced. If a student has reached the level of a black belt, he or she could be tested for the black belt.

Oldie


People put far too much emphasis on belt colors. If you have trained hard for 3 years you have trained hard for 3 years. Nothing more, nothing less. A lot of schools seem to hand out belts at certain intervals because they realize that without recognition and status people lose interest.

I can't imagine someone reaching the level of proficiency and athleticism that is required for black belt in our school in just a couple of years. The level of detail and refinement and the way that you discover "the truth" about various techniques in stages and develop your body to accomplish them simply couldn't be compressed. If it was simply a matter of memorizing kata, maybe, but that's not what I'm interested in at all.

[Oldie]

Some schools have pretty much followed a two-months-and-a-test schedule to promote people through the colored belts. That include those who take two to three dozen classes a month for two months, covering the whole spectrum of class work, and those who attend classes 2 to 3 times a week and sleep through many drills. That is McDojang mentality. Therefore, it is not uncommon to see a higher colored belt flounder when approaching the black belt grade, or then realize there hasn't been enough preparation at that level and get discouraged or quit.

But what do the McDojang Masters care? The important thing is the $$$ sign. Every two months, charge so-and-so a fee to be "promoted". In addition, students are encouraged to participate in the school-sponsored tournament competitions, even if it means going out of town. The sales of uniforms, sparring gears, etc. also mean income to the McDoJang Masters.

It is true though that people tend to get bored when they see themselves on the same colored belt level for months. That is perhaps why some schools have those "half-rank" colored belts, such as white belt, white stripe, yellow belt, yellow strip, etc. etc. A half rank is better than no rank or staying in the same rank. Good psychology on the students, and more money into the pockets of the McDoJang Masters.

Then there is this mentality/practice to require the red belt level students in Tae Kwon Do, for example, to be in some sort of "leadership programs", to help teach classes, as an added "requirement" to attain the black belt. Teach one class a week, for 26 weeks, along with taking classes. That means half a year more of tuition from the students. Some McDoJang Masters even tell the students that they are "lucky" to be allowed to teach classes in order to sharpen their skills...

Oldie

[Thomas]

“Some schools have pretty much followed a two-months-and-a-test schedule to promote people through the colored belts. That include those who take two to three dozen classes a month for two months, covering the whole spectrum of class work, and those who attend classes 2 to 3 times a week and sleep through many drills. That is McDojang mentality. Therefore, it is not uncommon to see a higher colored belt flounder when approaching the black belt grade, or then realize there hasn't been enough preparation at that level and get discouraged or quit. “
We generally have a testing every two months, but students are invited to test based on hard work, good attendance, and a mastery of the skills/techniques. I like having frequent formal testings (and constant informal ones) because it allows us to see how a student is progressing… and hopefully avoid the “floundering aspect.” You are right, though… students who don’t apply themselves and haven’t worked hard should not be allowed to test.


”It is true though that people tend to get bored when they see themselves on the same colored belt level for months. That is perhaps why some schools have those "half-rank" colored belts, such as white belt, white stripe, yellow belt, yellow strip, etc. etc. A half rank is better than no rank or staying in the same rank. Good psychology on the students, and more money into the pockets of the McDoJang Masters.”
We use a tip system, with a plain belt, one tip and two tips. This breaks the belt curriculum into thirds. So, for example, a one tip green belt is responsible for the entire white belt, yellow belt and 2 thirds of the green belt curriculum. In this way, it is very easy to keep track of what students should be working on and what level they should be at. As an instructor at a “University” school, we get lots of students who come and go for various reasons and it’s nice to be able to keep up on where they should be.

Dividing the curriculum up like that does make it easier for a student to stay on track and stay motivated. However, promotions should never be based on time only… but on skills mastery.

”Then there is this mentality/practice to require the red belt level students in Tae Kwon Do, for example, to be in some sort of "leadership programs", to help teach classes, as an added "requirement" to attain the black belt. Teach one class a week, for 26 weeks, along with taking classes. That means half a year more of tuition from the students. Some McDoJang Masters even tell the students that they are "lucky" to be allowed to teach classes in order to sharpen their skills...”

Although I see the potential for abuse, I’d have to disagree that this is a “MacDojang” characteristic.
-Any student who comes through our school will spend at least 1 year as a red belt (usually longer) in a sort of “intern” position. They will be assigned various tasks such as warm-ups, small group supervision, and basic instruction. We will evaluate them on their performance and provide one-on-one counseling and assistance in developing those skills. Some students think they can slack off as a red belt, wait the year and then test... not true. They must work hard and be comitted to becoming a black belt. For most students, this actually takes 1-2 years.

-We believe that all black belts must possess skills as an instructor and we will train them and evaluate them. Even if a student does not want to be an instructor (at our school, instructors are appointed, and rank is not the first consideration), they need to be able to help teach. As an instructor, I need to be able to call upon junior black belts to help… and this will keep the student: teacher ratio smaller.

-In our philosophy, one of the best ways to truly understand a technique is to teach it… it really is amazing the different levels of application and adjustments you learn when you teach a skill.

-Someday when our students leave and go to another school, we want them to be competent in the style and be able to teach it if need be, or in the position of “assistant instructor” to further their experience in the martial arts. Furthermore, by training them as instructors and observing how they react to different students and situations, we can evaluate their humility, patience, understanding, tolerance, and skill set. It’s easy to be good at a few things, but difficult to be good enough to teach all skills.

-As for “half a year more tuition”… we really want our students to stay with us even after they reach black belt. For us, black belt really is the beginning of being able to do the fun stuff and get into the real aspects of combining the basics into a comprehensive personal style. There isn’t an “end” to the program.

[Oldie]

Please forgive me for generalizing red belts in "leadership programs" as a means for McDoJangs to generate more income. I should have qualified my statement, in that I had been a red belt for a year, helping with warm-up, some assistance in instruction, etc. but then on the verge of testing for the black belt, there came this "leadership program" previously not explained to me and a few other red belts, that lasted for six months. Granted, I was given a plaque as a token appreciation, a surprise, but it would have been nice for the Dojang Master to stick to the Dojang rules; in that when a red belt was ready to test, the black belt test should have been scheduled. As a result, I was a red belt for 18 months, and had assisted in more than 100 classes and taught solo 60 times.

In my situation, I had wanted to stay after achieving the 1st dan, if not because of a medical condition --- the eye doctor told me to quit contact sports that might effect a blow to the left side of my face, which would result in my left eye ball getting knocked off its socket. But even without the medical condition, I would have to rethink whether I would like to stay with the program, due to many other what I considered to be "money-grabbing" tactics of the DoJang Master.

Oldie

[Thomas]

A-ha... that is a bit of strange situation. I do hope that you gained a lot from the experience and that it was worth it.

Anyway, tahnks for sharing... looking forward to more!

[JayTee]

"We generally have a testing every two months, but students are invited to test based on hard work, good attendance, and a mastery of the skills/techniques"

Wow - this is VERY different from how things go at our school. Although I'm sure that it's bad for business, the yellow-belt level is pretty much the end of the road for 90% of our students. We've got people who have had their yellow belts for (literally) years and will probably never go any further.

I've had my orange now for 3 years, and it took me 3 years to get it. I train 3-4 days a week, for 2-3 hours a night, and may never get my green. That's ok by me, as I don't see myself at the same level as the green belts, who are basically deadly.

The rote application of a set number of twisting techniques, or a set number of kicks is not acceptable for a belt test. There has to be complete understanding of each technique and violent, but controlled, accelleration shown in each one. A belt testing for something other than yellow (which generally comes after about 4-6 months of hard training) is rare indeed. There hasn't been a > yellow belt test in close to a year.

Our orange belts fight - boxing wise - with significant speed and power, and the green belts more so.

In over 25 years there have been less than 10 black belts handed out by our instructor, and please believe me when I say that those black belts are something extraordinary. While it may be the beginning of a journey, or the start of something (I wouldn't know), I do know that in pretty much any situation our black belts are devastating, elegant and superbly skilled. The sheer rarity of their existence guarantees that.

From the descriptions given above, I guess that I'd be black-belt level at any other club. Very interesting.

Jason

[Oldie]

"
From the descriptions given above, I guess that I'd be black-belt level at any other club. Very interesting.

Jason

Mister JayTee, since you are THAT GOOD, as someone with a yellow belt but good enough to be a black belt at any other club, I am now awarding you an honorary black belt. When you do become a black belt at the place you train, you can become my instructor. Honestly, I respect people who are that good.

Oldie

[Thomas]

JayTee: I think your post clearly shows why it is difficult to compare ranks across schools, let alone styles. That is why the real "level" of a person has to be measured by their ability and performance.

It sounds like you have spent a lot of time training and it sounds like you work hard. In your years of training, have you ever visited other schools and trained with them? In that way, you can get a better idea of "what rank you'd be in another school" than pure speculation. For me, it is very interesting to see how much the levels of different color belts may actually vary from school to school.

You quoted a statement of mine and replied:
"Wow - this is VERY different from how things go at our school. Although I'm sure that it's bad for business, the yellow-belt level is pretty much the end of the road for 90% of our students. We've got people who have had their yellow belts for (literally) years and will probably never go any further. " (emphasis added by Thomas)

Yes, it is different, and actually I was referring to the TKD side of our school. With the tips on the belts, a student who works hard and passes every test will spend about 6 months as a yellow belt (and so on). This is not unusual in the martial arts. Again, it is different from your school.

I do wonder why you chose to make the remark about business... if you are under the asumption that our school is "only in it for the money", I assure you that you are mistaken. Check out my previous posts and you will see that. Our fees are very low and actually we operate at a loss... testing fees and tuition barely cover insurance and do nothing to cover gas, time, etc. And, as one of two senior instructors at the school, here is the grand total I make per year from testing, teaching, and etc: $0

My advice: see if you can check out some other schools and see how you stack up. Even working against other styles is a good thing and can help expand your horizons. Otherwise, if you are happy with training hard, enjoying your school, without realy being concerned about rank, I say "excellent, I wish you the best."

[JayTee]

Mister JayTee, since you are THAT GOOD, as someone with a yellow belt but good enough to be a black belt at any other club, I am now awarding you an honorary black belt. When you do become a black belt at the place you train, you can become my instructor. Honestly, I respect people who are that good.

Oldie

First off, it's orange. Pretty much anyone can get a yellow belt at our school, but for most it's the end of the line.

Did you ever consider that maybe I didn't mean that I'm THAT good, but rather that schools which give out black belts in 3 years or so are producing black belts that are NOT so good?

Thanks for the offer, but you can keep your honourary black belt. I'll likely never receive a real one, but your Mcdojo version doesn't appeal to me.

JayTee: I think your post clearly shows why it is difficult to compare ranks across schools, let alone styles. That is why the real "level" of a person has to be measured by their ability and performance.
Thomas

Thanks for the considered reply Thomas. Perhaps I was a bit rash in my comments above. I do have a tendency to hit the <submit> button without thinking enough.

The "bad for business" part was meant as a reflection of our school, as it is indeed a serious financial disincentive to have such high standards. Ours is a very poor school, and many people quit because there are so few belt rewards for hard work, and also because there's essentially zero revenue from belt tests, other than that from a few yellows.

I've been to many other MA schools, and in the great majority (but not all) of the cases the level of black belts is dismal. I freely admit that ours is the only Hapkido school I've visited though.

Although there seems to be some animosity between our schools at the present time, I believe Shadow Warrior (Keith) would attest to the fact that there's something special about the quality of the higher belts (higher than me!) at Eagle Hapkido.

Again, no insults intended, and my apologies if I gave any.

[shadow warrior]

I started this thread to help potential Hapkido students find a suitable Dojang in which to train. It has since been rated five stars.

I hope that it has promoted thought and deseminated information to those who need it.

ALL (more than a half dozen to date), of the second generation Hapkido Masters which I have had the luck of meeting and learning from, have developed (some only a few, some many), VERY high level senior students. Their duration of training (8 - 35 years), emphasis on particular skill sets, methods of teaching, style of people management (control of the students outside the school) and general approach to being an authority figure, have varied greatly.

Although I am the third (of eight) Eagle Hapkido Black Belts awarded by Master Hwang, it was NOT my first Hapkido Black Belt (awarded by a second generation Master), nor was it my final one. I continue to learn from a few second generation Masters who were there in Korea during the early to mid 1960's.

ANY serious, curious students of Hapkido should seek out and visit the clubs of those who still actively teach in their schools before the direct personal contact with each approach is lost. Hapkido is diverse by its very nature and each Master teaches the skill sets, (which reflect their own total knowledge) when they themselves choose to do so..

By using this quiz as a starting point, it was my hope that it would assist people in choosing a school which is good for them in EVERY way. Nothing more nothing less..


K. Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

[Thomas]

Great post and a great thread!

[Dr.Syn]

Amen!!!

[kevinyusul]

I reckon nowadyas most Hapkido schools are Mcdojo's in one way or another, with our association, noone every fails a grading and in my mind that means that it is a McDojo, and the reason some of the instructors I have heard say is that is just a part of the training, why because and Hapkido club or organisation GETS LOTS OF MONEY FOR GRADINGS, from 40 bucks to 200 bucks depending on the belt, that is a McDojo.

[hollywood1340]

You can always tell those who have ever run their own buisness....

[hapkiyoosool]

I thank God we are not a McDojo. We do fail people and it is hard to keep students when we train as hard as we do. We are not in the martial arts to baby sit nor to entertain people by making martial arts "fun and exciting".
All of you are more than welcome to come and train with us. Anytime.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I know a few HKD folks, and most of them seem to be genuine fellows (and ladies) with some formidable skills that seem to be a good general reflection of the art as well as the people individually. Since the major characteristics of a HKD McDojang seem to have been established on this thread, I was wondering if the collective participants in this thread would reply to a few questions?

1 - Is it possible for a HKD Do Jang to grow to a large size, become a solid business, make an honest profit, provide oppourtunities for black belts to have a career in HKD, train students well, and allow HKD to flourish, Without Becoming a McDojang?

2 - If so , how can it be done?

3 - If it has been done please provide some examples or maybe links to those schools?

4 - If not , why not?

I have studied TSD/TKD in a dojang that never had more than about 40 students. It was very hard training and many students quit within a few months, only a few of us got to 1st dan and even less beyond that in the time I was there. Although I was proud to have achieved what few other had, I was equally disturbed that more people were unable to enjoy the experience of MA training that changed my life.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Wow!!!! I really expected some thoughtful insight to these questions. I shocks me to see that absolutely no one has replied so far. I know someone must have an opinion on this. I hope i have not offended anyone by asking, but I am genuinely curious.

[Coges]

I know a few HKD folks, and most of them seem to be genuine fellows (and ladies) with some formidable skills that seem to be a good general reflection of the art as well as the people individually. Since the major characteristics of a HKD McDojang seem to have been established on this thread, I was wondering if the collective participants in this thread would reply to a few questions?

1 - Is it possible for a HKD Do Jang to grow to a large size, become a solid business, make an honest profit, provide oppourtunities for black belts to have a career in HKD, train students well, and allow HKD to flourish, Without Becoming a McDojang?

2 - If so , how can it be done?

3 - If it has been done please provide some examples or maybe links to those schools?

4 - If not , why not?

I have studied TSD/TKD in a dojang that never had more than about 40 students. It was very hard training and many students quit within a few months, only a few of us got to 1st dan and even less beyond that in the time I was there. Although I was proud to have achieved what few other had, I was equally disturbed that more people were unable to enjoy the experience of MA training that changed my life.

Seeing as no one else will reply to you I might as well.

I don't think there is any doubt that it can be done. The criteria for such a school would have to be very favourable for this to take place. As with most small 1 or 2 instructor schools there is very little room for corruption (for use of a better word) between the instructors and students. The instructors retain a large amount of control over what is done/said/taught as they are doing it themselves. Should you have a large school with a large group of instructors and a larger body of students then there is more room for dilution between top and bottom.

Demographic is another issue. You would have to be in an excellent area and have the right type of clientele to compete with other martial arts schools, or you may have to indulge in advertising or marketing yourself to a wider audience. This is where so called traditionalists start calling you a McDojang because traditional schools don't need to advertise, they only hand pick the students they want for fear that something they hold very dear may become a popular activity by the masses. By appealing to a wider audience, mums/dads/children/students/professionals, you start to have a large variation in the reasons for people training. Therefore you have to scramble to accomodate to all these different needs without becoming a 'McDojang'. Do you now start a Hapkido Fitness class for all the soccer mums who want to learn self defense in half hour long sessions whilst practicing techniques to a britney spears soundtrack?

If you want to provide an ongoing career path for your students, the need for an ongoing income stream becomes all the more important. Can you sustain five or ten wages from your schools revenue. Do your students fees cover the costs of your's and your staff's wages? Do you have to CHARGE for testing? Do you now try to get sponsorship from outside sources by selling advertising space in your dojang or, God forbid, on your dobok. Again, people will be coming from miles and miles to see the mighty McDojang.

Because you are a hard ass, old school, TRADITIONAL instructor, how do you keep so many students at your school because no one can handle your training methods. Do you provide ongoing incentives to your students to keep working hard and training. There's no way you'd ever think of using incentives outside of a different coloured belt or the pride in being a good, honest, humble student.

And lastly in this rant of mine, you'd never think of running your Dojang like a professional business because you would then surely be straying into McDojang land by not 'teaching for the love of the art'.

To me a McDojang is a school that teaches the wrong technique to it's students or teaches with ill intention towards it's students. It's as simple as that. If you choose to run your school like a business and still treat your students in the right manner with the right technique then what are you doing wrong? If you decide to spend an afternoon in your office because you need to balance the books and leave instruction to a 1st or 2nd, what harm are you causing. If you have taught the technique right in the first place then your 1st and 2nd's should be competent. I think there is too much made of and Dojang that steps out of line with the Traditional or the norm. If you think outside the box and it's ethical, moral and right by your students, what are you doing wrong?

Rant over!

[Tansy]

McDojo that always makes me giggle, sounds funny. You should see the news that McDonalds are trying to get the image that they don't pay enough and have no career oppertunties out of the public eye and that its good to work for them...but thats anouther story.

I definetly went to a McDojang, and it was my first introduction to MA's so you could imagine my horror as I joined a new class and thought 'Why didn't I move before'.
My teacher was a Grand Master and about 55 years old so I thought he would be wise and honest :bang: , he charged us £25 a month about £15 for insurence (which I think is average) but charged £30 for grading and would just give out belts even if you sucked.
What did get me was the fact my lesson was about 1 hour long 4pm-5pm and we would start the class at 5:15 because the kids were still running around kicking a football about. Being the fact I was old I thought I would shout at them to get them to line up but they just looked at me and laughed or told me to shut up (I should have hit them). My master would say that kids are kids and they should exercise.
then it got worse because I ended up sharring a flat with my Korean friend who trained with me and she just would tell me all this stuff my master had said. I had said I was going to leave as I hated our class and I thought I should cross train as I felt I was naff as a fighter but my master laughed at it. He said I was too stupid, fat and old to take on anouther MA. So now I am determined to take on as much knowledge as possible and get thin so I can just do the english thing of sticking two fingers up. :D

There should be an online 'Bad Masters List' so people are warned!



Tans

[Choiyoungwoo]

Thanks Romulus and Tansy.?With you as exceptions, I must conclude that from the lack of responses that no one is either capable or willing to answer. I agree with Romulus that it is possible, but I am going to prod for more. Come on folks, I can't believe that you wouldn't want HKD to prosper with the popularity of Karate or TKD ( quality maintained of course) and provide you with the dream of having a career of HKD that is of quality and duration. I think if that possilblilty was more available that hkd could rival even the most pouplar arts in the world, it certainly has the potential.