When should an instructor quit teaching?

[Kwajman]

This is something I've thought about for a long time. When an instructor becomes older and is unable himself to demonstrate different movements, when should he retire? I know of 6th-7th degree blackbelts who would be beaten by red belts simply because of their age. Of course they know so much more. So my question is, does wisdom outweigh skill or vice versa? OR is it a combination of the two. I am a high brown belt and would like to hear from martial artists of all belt and skill levels.

[gojuman]

What about a female instructor? She may weigh a good deal less than her students and is probably not as strong as the men in her class. Does this mean you can not learn anything from her even though she has achieved a senior blackbelt rank?
Learning martial arts is about learning the technique to be able to apply it to a real situation if called upon. If in reallity your teacher could never over power you, they can still show you what to do if you are attacked by a bigger and stronger opponent.
If you were only refering to sparring full contact I would agree with you that you should sparr with someone physically able to give you a challange, but for most other things in the martial arts if the wisdom is being offered and you can take it. Take it.

[Kwajman]

I totally agree myself. But I've heard younger martial artists put down older blackbelts because they couldn't do some of the things a younger person could. I love the feedbacks.

[gojuman]

Those "younger martial artists" you speak of need to learn some respect. One day they will get their a##es kicked by a master who looks like a slow old guy and then they will learn.

[Thomas]

I think initially some students may not respond positively to instructors who are old, heavy, slow-seeming, or sometimes if they are female. I hope that most students learn very quickly that every instructor has something to offer and it will be beneficial to listen to them and try what they teach.

When I was much younger, I used to make fun of coaches once in a while... like why does a guy who wasn't very good at basket ball get to earn big bucks coaching a professional team? The answer of course was because they could teach. I think it is the same with instructors. It's great fun to see these big college weight lifters scoff at one of our self defence instructors (tall and thin... see female in "Instructors" picture in the photos section) until she puts them down hard!

To answer the initial question... I think an instructor should retire when they choose. I have no objection personally to being instructed by an old man or woman who needs to get around with a cane or a wheelchair... as long as they are imparting knowledge. If an instructor chooses to dies of old age in my school, I will listen to him/her to their last breath in the hopes of a bit more knowledge.

[Jim]

ditto Thomas.

[Andrew Green]

When it becomes routine.

Something they do out of habit, not cause they enjoy it.

When they stop trying to advance, when they don't train and just teach.

Training needs to improve and to evolve. It seems so many instructors train for 3 years in basics, get a blcack belt and thats it. They then spend the next 20 doing nothing more then not forgetting...

One of the major problems with the idea of having different styles is that it causes people to not think outside the box. How many people out there still say grappling is completely unneccessary because it is not a part of there "style"?

[Kwajman]

My instructors been a 3rd degree black belt for 14 years. Our Grand Master wants him to test, but he won't. I think its because he's afraid of failing. Any comments?

[Hyaku]

My teachers are in their late 80s early 90s now.

Some have sadly passed on and I have had to move on to others.

Its a never ending process. Even when they stop practice you can still learn so much from them.

Hyaku

[Reiki]

You can always learn something from a good instructor or someone who has knowledge that you don't.

In some cases even the teachers learn from their students.

I can remember teaching something about body mechanics and wristlocks to one of our visiting instructors a long time back when I was a lowly orange belt and he was a 3rd Dan black belt.... He has always thanked me for this! :)

[Mrs Owt]

An instructor should stop teaching when it becomes about imposing their ideas rather than helping the student develop.

[shortstick]

I think an instructor should stop when they no longer have their heart in what they are doing. Would you tell Wally Jay he is too old?? dont let him shake your hand!
I dont think age has as much to do with it as heart and attitude.
I have seen Instructors in the 30's and 40's that should have stopped teaching to see where they really wanted to be....but they did not.
I am just being picking here with one or two words of Mr. Green
"Habit" training is a habit for me.........."routine" I eat, sleep, train......those are all part of my routine....but my heart is in it.
Splitting hairs , I know:p

[chungmoomonkey]

There is this black belt at my studio that is like 60 and at first i was like he cant do anything how can he teach but he is very wize and knows acouple styles at like green belt he tought me alot and became my favorite instructor because he knows wat hes talken bout so as long as they can talk they can teach lol

[Kwajman]

I'm always interested in how students view their instructors. Thanks chungmoo!!

[Ara]

I believe the view that an instructor should stop teaching when he/she stops believing in what they are teaching. If their heart is in it, age is no boundary. You can learn something from everyone, no matter how old ( or young for that matter) they are. What they may lack in phyiscal ability, they will more than make up for in life experience and words of wisdom. :)

[Bulldog]

Knowledge only diminishes when the student stops learning...
Abilities peak and fade...

Stick with knowledge...cuz, it can last for generation upon generation...

An instructor should stop teaching if they themselves have lost the desire to learn...

[bcullen]

Question: When should an instructor quit teaching?
Answer: When he has no one to teach.

This question is also known as the "I can kick yer butt" scenario where the student challenges the instructor. The best response I have heard to this also answers this question. "Maybe you can, but, I can teach you how to kick my butt faster and more efficiently."

[Kwajman]

I like the last one!!

[Ghost Frog]

While it's true that as people get older, they're not as physically strong and energetic as younger people, they still have a lot to teach younger people.

We have an instructor in his late sixties in our association who, although not physically as strong as he was in the past, is really amazing at applying pressure point techniques, and is therefore still very intimidating to all the young bucks in the dojo.

I think that people can become more efficient and powerful as their physical strength declines slightly. They also have all the experience that they've gathered over many years.

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

my master is 36 and i know he won't stop teaching for a while his heart is for tkd and same with mine. my master... master an is a 6th degree in tkd and i hope he continues for a long time cuz he still young nd in shape and i know where his heart is for this art. when i teach tkd i wanna be just like him he is my perfect role model

[Brad Ellin]

When should an instructor stop teaching? When he/she no longer looks forward to teaching. When he/she no longer feels the love of teaching that started them in the first place. If it's one of those instructors that teached for pure financial reasons, when you no longer have someone to teach.
I break into two categories, only because I'm not a fan of teaching for financial reasons, no disrespect to those that do, it's just not me. I taught out of my love for the Art. I didn't charge and taught out of my house. Why did I quit? Because I don't know it all and wanted to devote more time to being a student. Maybe I'll teach again one day, when my current instructor feels I'm ready.

[Furikuchan]

Age has absolutely nothing to do with teaching ability. Professor Ernie Cates, age ?? (He won't say, but we know he's at least 70) still has enough to teach that he goes on tours of the country. He's already had a heart attack on the mat once. Will he stop teaching? No. People beg this guy to come to their dojos and teach. He has too much to give to judo, karate, and jujitsu to stop now.
So, when do you stop teaching? When you stop learning.
Teaching is a learning process. If you become so bogged down that your mind is no longer open to new techniques, that you cannot accept new ideas outside of your own, then it is time to get off the mat. If you do not change anything about what you do, if you do not evolve your teaching, you are passing on technique, but you are not teaching the full aspects of a martial art.

[Hannibal]

When he has nothing left to teach.

Don't be blinded by the "I can beat him so what's the point" mentality. Angelo Dundee, Emmanuel Steward and Rock Newman would not last 5 seconds with any of their proteges in boxing, but that does not mean they cannot help them improve.

[Soltari]

It's been said before, and i say it again. When they no longer enjoy what they are doing.

One of my old instructers was nearing 70. He didn't have our stamia, couldn't hit as hard, but his technique was so perfect, from the long years of practice that he was one of the best who's ever instructed me. He understood the dedication needed, and he'd willingly spend a night perfecting your problems, which is alot more then i can say for some of my younger instructers.

[Kwajman]

I know there is a movement afoot to make BB's be recertified every so often. What happens to that 70 year old bb who can't do a 360 jump spinning kick? Should they lose their ranking? Of course not.

[ap Oweyn]

One of the best coaches I've ever had walked with a cane. Obviously he wasn't doing the sort of maneuvers he was demanding of us. But he understood them. Presumably by virtue of previous experience. No reason for him to quit. (Actually, that would be a real tragedy.)

[Freeform]

When teaching becomes a chore and not done out of enjoyment.

I get annoyed when people (normally the 14 year old 'MMAers'), say they wouldn't train under some one if they could beat them. The older coaches have a massive depth of knowledge to pass on, even if they are no longer physically able themselves. Its the little things that make the difference.

Col

[Furikuchan]

I get annoyed when people (normally the 14 year old 'MMAers'), say they wouldn't train under some one if they could beat them.

I thought it was the goal of most martial arts instructors to train their students so they can beat them? Just a bit of irony to add to your day.

[Ghost Frog]

Originally posted by Kwajman
When should an instructor quit teaching?

Before 10pm, so I can get home in time to watch Nip/Tuck on Sky One.

:)

[annkramer]

I was told by my instructor along time ago that "TKD is the study of a lifetime" so considering you keep learning and passing on what you learn to your students I don't think age or physical ability should stop anyone from teaching. The greatest gift that any student can give to me is to surpass anything I have done in my career then I know I have done my job. My answer is this: only stop teaching if you do not enjoy it and are no longer a benefit to your students.

[Judge]

I believe the view that an instructor should stop teaching when he/she stops believing in what they are teaching. If their heart is in it, age is no boundary. You can learn something from everyone, no matter how old ( or young for that matter) they are. What they may lack in phyiscal ability, they will more than make up for in life experience and words of wisdom. :)

Quoted for emphasis.

I take 4 classes a week with a friend and overall when it comes to technique and knowledge of the style i outweigh him anyday, however, he always beats me in spars and grappling matches.

It may be true that as you get older your ability to fight and react as fast decreases but your ability to verbally express what is expected is still their.

The only time i can think of where you may want to retire even though you still feel strongly about the arts is possibly being paralyzed from the neck down and losing the ability to speak.

[dragon_bunny]

one of my sensi's has just had his knee messed up by a bad throw (same one who had his shoulder taken out a few months ago) he' was amazing to watch but now he's been told to quit training as his body has given up
but he's still going to carry on teaching us
i think i agree with everone else who said that you only stop teaching when your heart has gone out of it :)

[Kwajman]

I think thats why you only really see these 70 year old masters doing demonstrations now. Everyday its just too hard on the body.

[dragon_bunny]

true but he's only about 40-45ish.. some one did a rear foot sweep on him badly and kicked his knee cap out of place. he was really nice about it though doesn't blame the guy and came in after his op to tell us not to worry or be to put of doing it :)

[NRees]

See the attached image of General Choi performing a twisting kick ate age 82. Gen. Choi trained every day of his life, up until his unfortunate death. The argument that people wouldn't train under someone they could beat is ludicrous, there was probably a lot of world champions and the like in Gen. Choi's class who could beat him - did they stop training? Don't think so.

[Hapkidoin P]

If it hasn't been said already, I think a teacher should quit when he stops learning. ;)

[Pete Ticali]

Hi all;
It's really kind of interesting how we all grow thru cycles. As a small child, your dad was a god, In your teens he became a jerk, In your thirtys he got smarter, and if you are lucky in your 50's he's their as a trusted advisor.

The question of when an instructor should quit is much the same. I have had the opportunity to watch & learn from some really great instructors. If you were lucky enough to be around people like MIchael DePasquale Sr. Or Professor Vee, or Peter Urban, Don Nagle or any of the many others around the world, I think you would agree that their experience, their wisdom, and their ability to see through all the pomp & circumstance we surround ourselves with was something you are much better because of.

There is something to learn from every teacher, of every age. If you miss it, it's probably because you weren't ready for the lesson yet. Big gifts need not come in big packages. Sometimes the remark that comes from old experience can create a new world of experience.

When your instructor is ready to retire, tell him you'll pick up the slack, but would he please not stop being your teacher. A teacher is what he is, and when he thinks he can no longer teach, there is no purpose. You must assure him its not true.

Pete Ticali

[Rebecca]

I have mixed feelings on this. I think someone can still be an excellent teacher despite having physical limitations, whether they are age-related or not. A great teacher I know once taught from a wheelchair.

However, having said that---and being an instructor who is growing older and having more physical issues---I have a few pet peeves about older instructors and would offer the following cautions to myself as well as any other "oldsters" out there:

1. Don't stop training. Yes, you may have to limit your training. Yes, there are things you may not be able to do. But you can still train some aspects of your art, using whatever parts of you still work.

2. Continue to be a martial artist. This goes along with #1 above, but it also involves, in my mind, continuing to grow, continuing to practice the mental and spiritual and physical aspects of your art, continuing to see yourself and act as a martial artist should, continuing to improve yourself, etc.

3. Make up for your physical limitations by increasing your knowledge and ability to impart it.

4. Be an inspiration. ("Wow, if he can train so hard and give it his all when he's teaching, there is no excuse for me to slack off...")

5. Don't let yourself go physically. Obviously we can't all be as buff as some young whippersnapper who spends his/her every spare moment working out and training hard. But, IMO, if the martial arts should be all about discipline, hard work, etc., etc., there is no excuse for being a lazy glutton and waddling around all fat and out of shape. Students should look at us and say, "That's what I want to be like at his/her age. That's the benefit of training in the martial arts."

6. Don't just rely on memory or teach on auto-pilot. Keep your teaching fresh and keep reviewing the material that you are teaching.

7. Be teachable. Don't assume that, just because you've been doing the same thing for years that you can't still learn. Expand your knowledge.

8. Don't be all about the past. Some "war stories" are interesting and have valuable lessons in them. But most students come to train, not to hear about your training back in the day. Focus on your students and their training today, not on quaint stories that don't teach them anything.

9. Closely related to #8: Don't be a has-been. Don't be all about the good old days, your heyday, when the dojo was big and successful, etc. What is really irritating is hearing about what wonderful students you once had, how hard they all trained, all the cool teaching stuff you used to do, the championships everyone won, etc. Don't make your students think that your best teaching days are long over and that you and your dojo are all washed up.

10. Don't go soft. You may be a grandpa or a grandma, but in the dojo you should be a sensei. Leave the overprotective coddling at home along with the milk and cookies. If you can no longer stomach making your students train hard, find something else to do. Don't turn your dojo into a "feel good and hang out with grandpa" type of place. Don't ease up on sparring or real life self-defense drills. Don't hand out belt promotions like candy. Make your students sweat. Give them the satisfaction of doing their best.

11. Know your limitations and know how you'll be most useful to your art. Don't let your ego keep you from limiting your teaching time, especially if your memory starts to fade and you can't remember enough to teach your entire curriculum. There is a time to exit graciously and to give more and more of the reigns to another instructor, preferrably one you have trained and mentored to take over for you.

[Thomas]

Great post!!!!!!! :)

[MartialArtsSnob]

I agree with those who said "When the teacher stops learning". My teacher is 400 lbs and has a very difficult time walking. I have in 25 years NEVER sparred with him and I have NEVER seen him spar with anyone else. In fact I have never seen him perform a kata, ever! He teaches from a bench at the head of the room. The only time I see him do ANYTHING is when he demonstrates a technique and usually he uses me for UKE so I can't tell what he is doing because I am in too much pain. He told me that he will stop teaching when he is dead.

Snob

[soggycat]

Question: When should an instructor quit teaching?

Answer: When the teacher can make more money selling mass produced mediocre quality "Instructional Videos"


:)


Anyone care to name them?

[Scotty Dog]

Anyone care to name them?

If you do please read the Terms of Service (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/maprules.htm) 1st &bear them in mind while posting :)

[Bograt]

It was interesting reading the thoughts of others.
As an instructor I will stop teaching when I loose the heart. I try to keep learning between teaching and really do want to get into the grappling side but due to weak joints that become very sore when a lock/bar is put on them this puts me off.
There may come a time when what I teach is far outweighed by what my body prevents me from learning or failing health and I then require my other students to do more of the teaching If this happens I will get out of martial arts and just waste away.

[Sonshu]

This is something I've thought about for a long time. When an instructor becomes older and is unable himself to demonstrate different movements, when should he retire? I know of 6th-7th degree blackbelts who would be beaten by red belts simply because of their age. Of course they know so much more. So my question is, does wisdom outweigh skill or vice versa? OR is it a combination of the two. I am a high brown belt and would like to hear from martial artists of all belt and skill levels.

I think you can be too old to do the moves and still run the club, you just need a good 2nd who is in the prime to show the techniques the old timer cant do.

Knowledge can be lost from all arts if people disapear. The danger is the assistant not wanting to live long in the instructors shadow. I think older people have a terrific deal to add to their arts. Look at boxing instructors all old gits but the experience and training methods are still 100% in the head.

[NX01]

There's an 80+ year old Master (American at that) in our organization who, on the occassions we've worked together has been invaluable to me as far refining technique goes. Were we to spar, I'd probably break the man in half upon landing a kick, but that doesn't change the fact that I've learned a lot from him in the times we've been in the dojang together.
Sounds like a good instructor to me.
:)

[jabcrosshook]

So my question is, does wisdom outweigh skill or vice versa? OR is it a combination of the two.

Depends on the style. For kickboxing, the coach needs to be good. For something more traditional, this is not as important. I have done a lot with my judo coach which I couldn't if he was 86 or taught from a bench. Same with kickboxing.

[MDN]

I used to have an instructor that was about 60 or 70 and his stances and movement were smooth as silk. Better than anyone in the class.

[Sonshu]

Depends on the style. For kickboxing, the coach needs to be good. For something more traditional, this is not as important. I have done a lot with my judo coach which I couldn't if he was 86 or taught from a bench. Same with kickboxing.

I did some Gi grappling years ago with a 60+ year old Judo instructor after turning up for my first lesson (has other training) I was put in with the other students for Randori

I beat them all - then put in with the instructor and took it light on him due to his frail build. Then I was in an amazingly technical triangle choke and had to tap out. I then upped my game won the 2nd one.

Last one after 10 minst called it a draw as shattered but he could cut it very well and it was my first tap out in ground work.

A kickboxer can teach at aged 80 as its no different than a boxer, you spar with other fighters and students he is there as a trainer.

[saru1968]

I look at it a different way.

I think an Instuctor should consider his/her position as a an Instuctor when they don't 'feel' like a student anymore, after all we never stop learning.

Gary

[Sonshu]

Can you define what you mean by this please as its very open ended?

[Martial One]

when they have broken wude

[saru1968]

The question has so many angles, the angle i was coming from was that we are always students and may have a 'role' as a Instructor.

An older Instuctor may not be able to do physically what they could when they were 18 but the wisdom the have outstrips this.

Or another way, when we feel we have nothing to learn, form anybody regardless of Rank, age etc then we have 'lost' or 'missed' or just don't 'understand' the point, therefore we should always remain students first and Instuctors second.

Hope that makes sense although I'm getting more confused now!

Gary

:-)

[Sonshu]

Nope perfect sence - thanks. :D

[oldshadow]

O-Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) taught into his 80’s as have a lot of great teachers. I hope to teach until I can no longer make it to the dojo and hope to be remembered as a good teacher up until that day.

[wcrane]

an instructor should quit teaching when he no longer has the passion for it

[2004hemi]

Since you noted that you were interested in the views of all belt levels I will give my take on this question. I am new to martial arts as I just started in American kenpo, my instructor is a 6th Dan and he is 43 years old. After watching him do his moves he does not appear to have lost any of his speed.

I am 32 and like I said just beginning in kenpo, I cannot comment with a lot of authority on martial arts, but with that said I can use some examples outside of martial arts to answer your question.

Here is one example that I will throw out, sometimes a younger surgeon will have to perform a very difficult, say brain surgery. There may be an older that may not have the hands to perform the delicate maneuvers with the precision required of that type of surgery ,but that person is still in the room giving directions and capitalizing on the knowledge that they posses. This does not mean that the older surgeon should in fact quit, his or her knowledge is very useful and needed.

I do not know the original author of this old story so I can not give the correct citation to the author but I will use quotation marks to show I am giving credit.

“There is an old story of a grand master that was the best most respected grandmaster in all of China; this master was 78 years old and the only living holder of the 10th Dan degree. Every day this old master would go to a cafe and eat a bowl of soup and rice. And every day this younger master would come along and antagonize the old wise master into a fight so the 45 year old master could take his title. The old master every day would tell the young master he did not wish to fight the younger man. This the young mistakenly took as fear from the old wise master. After a few years of this going on and on the young master walked in the cafe with the intention of making the old master fight. This day he was going to have his title, he would not stop he even poured the soup on the old master. With this the old master calmly stood took a step toward the young master and hit him so fast in several pressure points that the fight ended in less than one second. The old master walked out of the café and the young master never walked again”

Moral of that story don’t underestimate old age and wisdom.