Top Two Reasons To Lift Weights. Plain & Simple.

[Colucci]

In the martial arts community, there are two eternal debates. One: Could Chuck Norris have defeated Bruce Lee in “Return of the Dragon” if he had the Gift of Beard? And two: How should a martial artist exercise when they are outside the dojo? I’ll ride the Norris bandwagon until the end of time on the first point. But for the second, I just might have some reasonable ideas.


1 – Get Stronger, Faster, and Bigger (if you’re into that)
In all my years of being a student of strength, fitness, and the martial arts, I can’t think of a more clear testimony to the advantages, nay, the necessity of weight training for the martial athlete than I saw in the 2004 PRIDE contest between MMA pros Kevin “Monster” Randleman and Fedor Emelianenko. Even though the entire match lasted less than two minutes, it has become singularly defined as the suplex heard ‘round the world.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4139/fedorrand9lg.jpg
Caught on film: The exact moment Fedor’s chiropractor considered buying a Bentley.

Now, do we truly believe that Randleman developed the strength to suplex a 230+ pound man and violently deposit him like a sack of empty beer cans, and “The Monster” never did a Power Clean or a heavy Back Squat? Conversely, the inspiring (or discouraging, if you’re Randleman) ease with which Fedor shakes off the attack and continues with aggression was certainly a testament to a lifting diet rich in heavy Shrugs and Deadlifts.

We can agree that being just a bit stronger and just a bit faster than your opponent is a good thing, correct? I believe that we can safely extrapolate this to say that being much stronger and much faster than your opponent is a very good thing. It’s a given that technique and conditioning will either remain constant, or will improve accordingly. And that’s easy enough to ensure though consistent practice. But it’s that oh-so-scary path towards Muchstrongerville and Muchfasterburg that too many martial artists are tentative to travel. Those pesky Fiction Fitness magazines have unfortunately popularized inefficient, borderline-archaic strength training theories that simply are of no use to competitive or recreational martial artists. It’s become a sad fact that a great number of practitioners equate strength training with bodybuilding. We need to be smarter than that.

In all the world of sport, from ice skating to tennis to rugby, athletes use well-designed strength training programs to improve their performance. The world of martial arts, from Sumo to Shotokan to Aikido, has no legitimate reason to think that it deserves special treatment. My battle cry is, has been, and will remain: Intelligent strength training builds better athletes. Period.


2 – That Whole “Book, Cover, Don’t Judge” Thing

So you’re out clubbin’ one night, gettin’ your groove on, when you’re bumped into by a stranger. You turn around to confront the fiend that interrupted your boogaloo. Standing in front of you is retired UFC pro “The Smashing Machine” Mark Kerr, lightweight Olympic lifting phenom Naim Suleymanoglu, and fitness guru Richard Simmons. Of these three gents, which are you hoping bumped into you?

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7373/kerr27cz.jpg
The Smashing Machine: Scary big.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2941/naim4pq.jpg
Pocket Hercules: Scary strong

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3483/richsimmons3me.jpg
Sweatin’ To The Oldies: Just scary.


Based on nothing more than their appearance, there’s likely to be a little voice entering the back of your mind saying “Please be the little guy, please be the little guy, please be the little guy.” It’s this type of preconceived notion, and the psychology behind it, that can provide a rarely discussed advantage of strength training.

Hypertrophy, that often-dirty word, is the unfortunate victim of hurtful stereotypes; just like male ballerinas and female softball players. While the term means literally “to increase a muscle’s size”, it should not always be of last concern to martial artists. Competitive fighters who abide by weight class restrictions actually need to give this concept their full attention. For those of us who don’t need to step into the ring or onto the mat on a regular basis, a healthy dose of muscle can help one extra board break, or make your neck just a little bit harder to choke, or help you look great in a tank top when you’re flirting with the store clerk at the Vitamin Shoppe. Okay, so that last point may be a tad superficial. And that’s where the dark side of hypertrophy comes from; seeking muscle for the sake of having bigger muscles. It’s a fine line, for sure. But if it wasn’t, how interesting could it really be?

Back to our original example…why was the little voice in your head hoping against hope that it wasn’t Mark Kerr you’d have to confront? Because Mark Kerr is built like a concrete outhouse (or something like that). He’s a big, mean-looking mammer jammer, and without knowing any more about him, your primal instinct tells you “That guy hits hard. Don’t tick him off.” A physique along those lines (not necessarily taken to that level) can be physically imposing enough to the point of, even momentary, distraction. Granted, this “trick” may not appeal to female martial artists. But a variation of it may.

Look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2, or Demi Moore in G.I. Jane. Both of those hardbodies have inspired countless women to work on their Chin-ups and 1-arm Push-ups. (I once had a co-worker who went to see G.I. Jane and said “I’m totally going to shave my head now.” She never did…but I digress.)

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6798/lindahamilton06km.jpg
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4182/pushup4lz.jpg
Hi, I’d like two tickets to the gun show, please. Thank you.

The actresses specifically increased their muscle tone to give off a seriously badass vibe. And it worked. More muscle, on any body, is almost always a good thing. I say “almost” because for weight-class athletes, the additional muscle needs to be with respect to total bodyweight. This starts making things like bodyfat percentage and lean body mass some important variables to track. However, that’s a whole different egg to crack and we won’t get into it here. But I don’t mind teasing you with a scenario: a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 20% bodyfat competes against a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 40% bodyfat. Who’s likely to win and why? I’ll bet my salmon sashimi that it’ll be the 20%’er…because he’s got more muscle. But enough on that for now.

Back to Suleymanoglu. Pocket Hercules indeed. Four feet, six inches tall, no heavier than 65 kilograms (62 kilos at most competitions.) Under the wrong circumstances, the guy might be charged for a kid’s ticket at the movie theater, but he’s put more than three times his bodyweight over his head. Imagine that for a second. Let’s say you were born as quadruplets and one day, just messing around, You-2, You-3, and You-4 sit on a couch and You-1 snatch the whole lot into the air. Mom would be so proud. Now imagine performing this feat so often, that you become the 4-time gold medal winning Olympic World Champion. That’s what it’s like to be Naim.

While we’re in an imaginative mood, let’s picture Naim at the horsetrack, enjoying the ponies running. Things take a dark turn, and he finds himself cornered by several big, mean, evil jockeys mounted on their terrible steeds. Fortunately, Suleymanoglu is able to strike first, and he lays out the first evil equine with exquisite ease. That’s the power we’re talking about. Genuine horse (-punching) power. And the best part of it is that that didn’t even expect it. Let’s face it. He’s a little guy, and little guys are rarely intimidating.

But smart little guys (and gals) can capitalize on this prejudice and seize the opportunity if they’re prepared. ‘Prepared’, in this sense, means that you have an above-average strength-to-weight ratio. And the best way to do that is (drum roll please)… weight training! If a person of smaller stature can lift a bodyweight 2-dumbbell Military Press, for example, they’ll be a step closer to finding that surprise K.O. strength.

(Caution – Please wear a hardhat for this next paragraph. Name-Dropping is in progress.)
In a recent correspondence with Martial Arts Conditioning Expert Charles Staley, he pointed out another logical reason behind strength training for the smaller martial artist. To quote Staley “…The whole idea of Martial Arts is that a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy…IF his technique is good enough…which is true of course. I’d simply add to that that if weight trained, that smaller guy could beat an even BIGGER guy!” So, for the shorter crowd, consider weight training to be the first step in your quest for global domination. All shall fear you, and tremble in your path. None shall be safe. Unless they hide on a tall bookshelf.

And what about Richard Simmons? All I can say is this: He’s been an advocate of low intensity, long duration cardio exercise and lightweight lifting for over two-and-a-half decades, and…he…looks…like…this.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6665/rs129gj.jpg
Still just scary.

Would you be scared to take a punch from this guy? Or a kick? Or let him mount you and do some serious ground and pound? Okay, that last one could scare just about anyone. Bad example. But the point remains, if you believe that 10-mile jogs and punching with 3-pound dumbbells will make you a better fighter, then you and Simmons will get along just fine.


To Conclude, After Having Opened Some Eyes (Hopefully)

You’re a martial artist. You learned your punches and kicks. You practice stances and breakfalls. In class, you warm-up with jumping jacks, push-ups, and crunches. Weight training is an extension of the martial arts lifestyle that can add snap to your punches, help you bounce up from a breakfall, and make those torturously dull push-ups seem easier. By neglecting the weight room, you’re making a declaration that you do not want to be the most efficient, most effective practitioner possible. Make a choice. Open your mind, train right, train smart.

[Sever]

But but but... lifting weights makes you bulky and slow! A real martial artist shouldn't lift weights, you need to be fast and you won't be if you ever touch a barbell :Angel:

Kidding. Awesome post

[narcsarge]

BeWater, I concur! I too believe that weight training is a good way to increase power. Over the really long haul, you may sacrifice some speed but I believe that will be offset by gains in power. Besides, having the added muscle will help when taking a blow too. I can honestly say that, since my recent return to MA, my recent muscle gains may mean I will hit you once instead of twice. But, that one hit could very well incapacitate rather then just score. I'll take the trade off. :Angel:

[Skrom]

kind of sad that this even needs to be said, but there's no doubt that it does. hopefully this will silence the remaining stragglers. good article.

[iamraisen]

Great article. Worth the wait even for the converted :D

[slipthejab]

Holy Crap!

You managed to work Richard Simmons into that brilliant article.
You're my hero! :p


(but honestly... just about everyone would be dead scared to be 'mounted' by Richard Simmons! :D)

[microhard]

You know in the 70's nobody wanted to mess with an Asian looking dude.
You know why? Cuase he knows kung fu. Why would someone be scared of a skinny dude with Eastern back ground? Because we are lead to belief that he can kick our ass like Bruce. Well we all think that just cuase a brother got more contractile tissue on his bones, he can kick ass.
Having huge fast twich fibers doesn't make you a good fighter. I also doubt that a UFC champion would fight over who bumped into whom.

[Colucci]

Well we all think that just cuase a brother got more contractile tissue on his bones, he can kick ass.
Having huge fast twich fibers doesn't make you a good fighter.
I don't think that I said that "having muscles makes you a good fighter." But I did say:
Intelligent strength training builds better athletes.
and
...a healthy dose of muscle can help one extra board break, or make your neck just a little bit harder to choke...
and
...A physique along those lines [referring to Mark Kerr] (not necessarily taken to that level) can be physically imposing enough to the point of, even momentary, distraction.
It's a combination of utilizing physical appearance to your advantage, however minimal it may be, as well as developing useful, "functional" muscle mass.

I also doubt that a UFC champion would fight over who bumped into whom.
That is so far away from the point, I'm not even sure why you felt the need to mention it. But...sure, I guess you're right. But on this same train of thought, why would Naim Suleymanoglu, Richard Simmons, Mark Kerr, and you be in the same nightclub in the first place? Try not to stress over the small stuff.

[Colucci]

Thanks for the general feedback, guys. Cheers.

[Jamesy]

Good read.

[freak]

great article, thanks for the post

[kwang gae]

Awesome article, and just when I was thinking of moving away from weight training. Thanks for talking me out of it.

[ItalianStallion]

Good stuff man

[Capt Ann]

Great post!!

[GhostOfYourMind]

Good article. Next time....no pictures of simmons though....mmmmmk?

[blessed_samurai]

BeWater,
Aside from being a great post, I really enjoyed your writing style. You smash some humor into a very readable wording along with some great information that's easy to understand.

[iamraisen]

BeWater,
Aside from being a great post, I really enjoyed your writing style. You smash some humor into a very readable wording along with some great information that's easy to understand.

i agree. its very similar to this article i read on t-nation by some guy review alpha male :p

[Kwan Jang]

Shhh...., No, don't listen to Water. Weight training WILL make you slow and muscle-bound. It will also lower your IQ (and if you remotely believe my post, you can not afford it) and make you look "gross". Just keep wanting to look "Like Bruce" or better yet "like Sammo".

Y'see, I'm starting to get older and I need to keep my edge.

[MartialJac]

I have been told I cannot lift weights until 14, I do some light dumbell work 5 kilos and under. Press ups and sit ups form most of my weight training ( 3-500 each daily) in reps of 50 or 100. I can also do 25 1 arm press ups on each arm and do 1 legged squats etc. When can I train with real weights and what would be a good program for me?

[Snake+CQC]

I completely agree with you water. :D

[Cuchulain82]

Excelente BeWater! A well done article through and through. Just a few things I thought of, please feed back:

(1) One thing that you hinted at but did not explicitly say in section 1 the injury protection benefits that muscle has for fighters. A well conditioned, strength-trained athlete can take a beating much better than a poorly conditioned athlete. This is true of all competitive athletes, from fighters to ballers to WWE wrestlers because the muscle itself protects your body. If you're doing something that causes you to have to fall, jump, punch/kick, be punched/kicked, tackle/be tackled, or generally get banged up, more muscle will protect your body and from more serious injury.

(I'm serious about the WWE thing too- even though those guys are roided up, they still slam each other around for 200+ days a year. That's not easy to take.)

(2) Question- though pocket hercules is amazing, what effect does his small stature have on his ability to lift such amazing weight? To ask it another way, does the fact that he is a shrimp allow him an actual advantage (in terms of mechanics) that allows him to lift bodyweight x3? Can a more average person hope for a similar lift? Does it have to do more with training time than height? I know lifters like Dave Tate have PRs approaching 1,000 lbs for many olympic lifts, but do they train at such huge levels (say, bodyweight x2) regularly?

[Colucci]

If you're doing something that causes you to have to fall, jump, punch/kick, be punched/kicked, tackle/be tackled, or generally get banged up, more muscle will protect your body and from more serious injury.
A great point, Cuch. Muscle can serve as a physical cushion, helping to protect bones and internal organs from impact. One of my favortie lines from Alwyn Cosgrove is "I got punched in the spine once...Interesting thing is, my opponent went through my stomach and ribcage to do it. I got real interested in core training after that."

Also, low rep, heavy weight training can help to develop tendon and ligament strength, which should be a primary concern for anyone involved in a joint-locking art. I'll go on record as saying that if you want to avoid an armbar, barbell curls will have a definite place in your routine. (Now there's a can of worms that probably didn't need to be opened here.)


(2) Question- though pocket hercules is amazing, what effect does his small stature have on his ability to lift such amazing weight? To ask it another way, does the fact that he is a shrimp allow him an actual advantage (in terms of mechanics) that allows him to lift bodyweight x3?
I think it's a combination of him being a genetic phenomenon and having extremely advantageous leverage for his sport. If he's only 4'6", then the barbell only needs to travel maybe 5 and a half feet to be over his head. On an uber-basic level, it will be easier for "someone" to lift 400 pounds 5 and a half feet than it would be to lift it 7 feet. Especially with Olympic lifting, technique can be a big factor, but Naim's got that down pat. So, yes, I believe his stature is a definite advantage.

Does it have to do more with training time than height?
Well, I wouldn't set your heart on a 407-pound Clean & Jerk (like Pocket Herc had at the '96 Olympic games), but you never know. Given enough training time and dedication, sure, maybe it's possible eventually. But you'll probably have to gain some weight to offset it and to build the muscle to allow it. So...in actuality, I guess not. Wow. Circular logic hurts my brain, sorry.

I know lifters like Dave Tate have PRs approaching 1,000 lbs for many olympic lifts, but do they train at such huge levels (say, bodyweight x2) regularly?
The guys with the really huge numbers generally do put that up during regular training. It's not uncommon for some of the Westside Barbell powerlifting crew to train and hit 6 or more lifts at 90% their 1-rep max. So, if they have a max squat of 900, they're using around 800-pounds, which is over 2X bodyweight.

[cxw]

...It’s a given that technique and conditioning will either remain constant, or will improve accordingly.

I disagree on the conditioning - a competite MAer will have their conditioning peaking for when they compete. Any reasonably good MAer will have some sort of periodization in their training.

[Colucci]

I have been told I cannot lift weights until 14, I do some light dumbell work 5 kilos and under. Press ups and sit ups form most of my weight training ( 3-500 each daily) in reps of 50 or 100. I can also do 25 1 arm press ups on each arm and do 1 legged squats etc. When can I train with real weights and what would be a good program for me?

Hop over to the Health & Fitness section (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=32) and ask us over there. You'll get some more detailed responses. :)

[Colucci]

I disagree on the conditioning - a competite MAer will have their conditioning peaking for when they compete. Any reasonably good MAer will have some sort of periodization in their training.
Well, I did say that conditioing could improve accordingly, so I don't think we're exactly disagreeing. But remember, the focus of this article was the benefits of strength training. If I started discussing how to juggle and manipulate strength, muscle mass, practical technique, and conditioning, the whole piece would've gotten waaayyyy sidetracked and would have ended up even longer that I had hoped.

Nevertheless, you raise a good point; it's all about knowing what and when to peak, and what and when to maintain.

[Apotheosis]

I loved the post, not only informative and interesting but humorous as well.

One problem- You failed to mention Richard Simmon' fighting ability.

He is 54 years old, 5'7 and 155 lbs and he slapped a 23 year old man who is 6'1 and 255 lbs who cage fights and has spent 3 years in prison.

So besides the fact that his victim should pray he never goes to jail again and has been forced to retire from fighting, we know Simmons packs a mean slap.

[tcgohan]

Huh?


Oh and how do you keep the body loose during/after weight training?(tai chi can suffer if muscles tighten due to training).If you don't have to fight the opposing muscles your strike or whatever will be faster and stronger, by learning to relax opposing muscle groups your body is more efficient wich is why I love supersets like squat/deadlift, bench/ row, crunches/supermans I find it teaches the muscles to relax when they are not needed and be ready to apply maximum force. Don't forget to stretch afterward or the muscles tend to tighten up.

I know I answered my own quesion. H+F forumn --->

[elektro]

WHat sort of weght training do Muay Thai fighters do?
They are really skinny (especially the Thais) - but do they still build muscle in order to take hits?

[Doppleganger]

Nice article BeWater. :)

Muai Thai fighters are governed by weight classes, so they have to watch how much weight they put on, unless they're heavyweights. Most of the Thais are small statured as it seems to be a genetic characteristic, probably due to diet and lifestyle? As for building muscle to take hits MT fighters wear gloves and condition their shins to take strikes. They're not going to be taken to the ground in the ring or punched in the kidneys (or shouldn't be) ;) I imagine they'd build muscle for strength and greater striking power rather like boxers do. The acquisition of too much muscle mass would not be a priority for most MT fighters I'd imagine.

[aml01_ph]

Very nice article. :)

I would like to ask however, your position on supplements (particularly those that reputedly increase muscle mass). I had to ask because there seems to be a trend where supplementation automatically accompanies strength training.

Personally I don't take supplements because they're expensive here where I live (I guess the guys I know have the same reasons). I've seen and trained with lifters who eat basically the same as I do (rice, meat and vegetables), are really strong, and yet do not take said supplements (except maybe the few who take multivitamins).

[Hades]

Nice article!

My boxing instructor and me are always arguing about lifting.

I lift twice per week, really helps me, I get stronger, faster and bigger. I only do compound exercises, lot's of 5x5, not more than 10 reps, squats, benchpress, pull-ups.. etc.


However, he claims my techniques are worse than a few months back. He says it's because of the lifting, I say it's because I haven't done much boxing last couple of weeks, and I have had a sprained wrist :D

It's so much fun, he says lifting's bad, I say it's good. :D

Every lesson, same discussion lol...

[Colucci]

how do you keep the body loose during/after weight training?
The short answer: Use the full range of motion during exercises (from full extension to full contraction), incorporate dedicated stretching time either after weight training or on a day of it's own, use a thorough warm-up including dynamic flexibility movements.


WHat sort of weght training do Muay Thai fighters do?
I don't know, I'd have to ask them. :rolleyes: Like Doppleganger mentioned, they do need to abide by weight class restrictions. If I were a competitive Muay Thai fighter, I'd definitely want some more meat on my bones.


I would like to ask however, your position on supplements (particularly those that reputedly increase muscle mass).
I like 'em, I used to sell 'em, I use 'em now. :) "Supplements" is a rather vague term. It's like saying "What's your position on exercises?" ;) There have been a bunch of threads over in the Health & Fitness section (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=32) discussing supplements. Here's one of the more recent and comprehensive:Top 5 Supplements. (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44731)

However, the going rule is, in this order:
1 - Fix your body (deal with any pre-existing injuries or issues.)
2 - Develop a (whole food) nutrition routine targeting your goals.
3 - Develop a training routine targeting your goals.
4 - Use the rights supplements, at the right time.

[Ad McG]

I do 50 push ups and 50 sit ups a day in my bedroom, is this enough?

:Angel:

Good stuff mate, glad to see some content from you... at last :D :Angel:

[tcgohan]

I do 50 push ups and 50 sit ups a day in my bedroom, is this enough?

:Angel:



Short answer: yer, um, NO!

Long answer: It's better than eating potato chips but it's not enough to make increases in maximal strength or muscle mass. Stop being a panzy :love: buy a power rack or find a gym that has a few in it, and don't forget the olympic barbell and weight set. Use the weights repeatedly, lift "explosively" to add speed to your ... whatever, and don't lock the joints(on speed aka dynamic lifts) or your joints will complain. LOUDLY. Don't forget to go heavy with your weights to gain strength/size find a buddy who can spot you (or learn how to set up that power rack ;) )

[CosmicFish]

Short answer: yer, um, NO!

Long answer: It's better than eating potato chips but it's not enough to make increases in maximal strength or muscle mass. Stop being a panzy :love: buy a power rack or find a gym that has a few in it, and don't forget the olympic barbell and weight set. Use the weights repeatedly, lift "explosively" to add speed to your ... whatever, and don't lock the joints(on speed aka dynamic lifts) or your joints will complain. LOUDLY. Don't forget to go heavy with your weights to gain strength/size find a buddy who can spot you (or learn how to set up that power rack ;) )
Congrats dude, you just taught Granny how to suck eggs. ;)

[Skrom]

*slaps forehead*

[jwmp]

weight lifting gives you abnormal looking muscles, i went for bodyweight exercises a long time ago because the look is natural

it boils down to what you are trying to achieve as to what direction one takes.

[Socrastein]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[CosmicFish]

weight lifting gives you abnormal looking muscles, i went for bodyweight exercises a long time ago because the look is natural

it boils down to what you are trying to achieve as to what direction one takes.
Abnormal? In what way?

AFAIK, If you're moving weight, your body can't distinguish between bodyweight and external weight. Both involve exerting muscular force against a resistance. How can one make you look abnormal, but not the other?

[Fatz Burger]

He probably means bodybuilding. Strength based exercises shouldn't result in much body mass increase. Also, I don't know any MMA guys that don't do weights as part of their routine; it can make a real difference provided you don't sacrifice other aspects of your training,

[Skrom]

He probably means bodybuilding. Strength based exercises shouldn't result in much body mass increase.
i refuse to believe that most people are this ignorant. it's just a big conspiracy designed to piss me off.

[aml01_ph]

weight lifting gives you abnormal looking muscles, i went for bodyweight exercises a long time ago because the look is natural.

Hmmmm. What does natural look to you I wonder? :rolleyes:

Strength based exercises shouldn't result in much body mass increase.

Really depends on the person's genetics, food-intake, supplementation and exercise frequency.

[Unisonus]

BeWater:

This is an excellent article, however - it's not easy to incorporate MA training and weight-training into your routine. After a session of high intensity weight-training, I really can't do pushups and crunches (which are practiced in almost every MA facility). If I'm grappling, my strength is significantly diminished. I know that professional fighters have ways to get around this. Any ideas?

[Colucci]

It's one part monitoring your training volume and intensity, and one part good old fashioned periodization. Let's say you're in the dojo on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, from 7:00pm-9:00pm each time. If you wanted to increase your general strength, I'd try lifting Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 8:00am with a low volume routine (Something simple, like 5x2 or 3x3 for 2, maybe 3, exercises per session.) If that schedule isn't feasible, then I'd try lifting easy on Thursday and seriously on Saturday and Sunday. Just some ideas.

Weight training is supposed to enhance your martial arts practice. If it's hindering it, then something's wrong, and it needs to be addressed right-quick.
After a session of high intensity weight-training, I really can't do pushups and crunches...
You answered your own question right there, actually.

"BeWater, when I lift with high intensity, my grappling suffers."

Well then...don't...lift...with high...intensity. Problem solved. ;) (Truth be told, I'd rather reduce your training volume slightly, before dropping intensity. As long as "intensity" means 'using heavy weight', not 'lifting near to muscular failure'.)

[Unisonus]

Thanks, Bewater, that makes a lot of sense.

[SuperSanity]

Say I'm not going for big muscles, but still want strength (fro punching and kciking power) and definition. What would you suggest for that?

[Capt Ann]

See all advice in this thread. Basically, everyone on the MA forums wants strength for kicks and punches (and endurance), not for body-building. Search the forums for 'five by five' programs, or use heavy weights and use mid-range reps and sets (3 to five sets of 6 to 8 reps).

Also, check out the workout threads in the health and Fitness forum. There are whole sections devoted to recommended workouts for different goals. Start by reading all the 'Stickies' at the top. Then ask questions in the sub-forum on getting help with workout routines. There is also an excellent thread on "Your Top Five", where everyone responding had to list their top five exercises for a workout, if they were limited to those and only those. By reading the thread and watching comments, you can put together an excellent basic workout to cover upper body, lower body, and core. Also, compare what you are doing now to what others are doing in the "Spontaneous Workout Check-in" thread.

....and welcome to MAP!

[Colucci]

Say I'm not going for big muscles, but still want strength (fro punching and kciking power) and definition. What would you suggest for that?

Hey man, sorry about the delay. I could've sworn I subscribed to this thread, otherwise I would've responded sooner. Though, Ann did give some pretty solid answers. Good on ya, lady. :D I'd just tweak it a little bit.

Sanity, to increase strength while minimizing or avoiding an increase in muscle, you want to keep the volume (sets and reps) of each workout fairly low and the intensity (weight used) fairly high. A good example would be 10x2, 6x3, 4x4, or 3x5 using weights you couldn't lift for more than 1 or 2 additional reps. (For example, if you're doing a set of three, you shouldn't be able to get more than four or five reps. But you'll stop at three.)

The point about getting "definition" is going to be largely influenced by your nutrition. Though you can't have any definition without an appreciable amount of muscle to begin with.

Also, if you want to, toss a question to us over in the Health & Fitness section (http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=32) and we can sort a program out for ya.

[Hyugga Neji]

I totally agree with you but only if weight-lifting is combined with lots of stretching exercises, in order to make musles flexible and fast as before and cardiovascular exercises for fat burning, endurance and speed.

[Visage]

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

But weight training isn't the be-all and end-all.

James

[aml01_ph]

Of course not. That is why it's supplemental (as is cardio and stretching) to anyone's training as to their chosen MA.

[SteelyPhil]

To link back to the original topic because i know jack about supplements:
I think that muscle mass etc is important for Martial Atheletes

[doc_jude]

In the martial arts community, there are two eternal debates. One: Could Chuck Norris have defeated Bruce Lee in “Return of the Dragon” if he had the Gift of Beard? And two: How should a martial artist exercise when they are outside the dojo? I’ll ride the Norris bandwagon until the end of time on the first point. But for the second, I just might have some reasonable ideas.


1 – Get Stronger, Faster, and Bigger (if you’re into that)
In all my years of being a student of strength, fitness, and the martial arts, I can’t think of a more clear testimony to the advantages, nay, the necessity of weight training for the martial athlete than I saw in the 2004 PRIDE contest between MMA pros Kevin “Monster” Randleman and Fedor Emelianenko. Even though the entire match lasted less than two minutes, it has become singularly defined as the suplex heard ‘round the world.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4139/fedorrand9lg.jpg
Caught on film: The exact moment Fedor’s chiropractor considered buying a Bentley.

Now, do we truly believe that Randleman developed the strength to suplex a 230+ pound man and violently deposit him like a sack of empty beer cans, and “The Monster” never did a Power Clean or a heavy Back Squat? Conversely, the inspiring (or discouraging, if you’re Randleman) ease with which Fedor shakes off the attack and continues with aggression was certainly a testament to a lifting diet rich in heavy Shrugs and Deadlifts.

We can agree that being just a bit stronger and just a bit faster than your opponent is a good thing, correct? I believe that we can safely extrapolate this to say that being much stronger and much faster than your opponent is a very good thing. It’s a given that technique and conditioning will either remain constant, or will improve accordingly. And that’s easy enough to ensure though consistent practice. But it’s that oh-so-scary path towards Muchstrongerville and Muchfasterburg that too many martial artists are tentative to travel. Those pesky Fiction Fitness magazines have unfortunately popularized inefficient, borderline-archaic strength training theories that simply are of no use to competitive or recreational martial artists. It’s become a sad fact that a great number of practitioners equate strength training with bodybuilding. We need to be smarter than that.

In all the world of sport, from ice skating to tennis to rugby, athletes use well-designed strength training programs to improve their performance. The world of martial arts, from Sumo to Shotokan to Aikido, has no legitimate reason to think that it deserves special treatment. My battle cry is, has been, and will remain: Intelligent strength training builds better athletes. Period.


2 – That Whole “Book, Cover, Don’t Judge” Thing

So you’re out clubbin’ one night, gettin’ your groove on, when you’re bumped into by a stranger. You turn around to confront the fiend that interrupted your boogaloo. Standing in front of you is retired UFC pro “The Smashing Machine” Mark Kerr, lightweight Olympic lifting phenom Naim Suleymanoglu, and fitness guru Richard Simmons. Of these three gents, which are you hoping bumped into you?

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7373/kerr27cz.jpg
The Smashing Machine: Scary big.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2941/naim4pq.jpg
Pocket Hercules: Scary strong

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3483/richsimmons3me.jpg
Sweatin’ To The Oldies: Just scary.


Based on nothing more than their appearance, there’s likely to be a little voice entering the back of your mind saying “Please be the little guy, please be the little guy, please be the little guy.” It’s this type of preconceived notion, and the psychology behind it, that can provide a rarely discussed advantage of strength training.

Hypertrophy, that often-dirty word, is the unfortunate victim of hurtful stereotypes; just like male ballerinas and female softball players. While the term means literally “to increase a muscle’s size”, it should not always be of last concern to martial artists. Competitive fighters who abide by weight class restrictions actually need to give this concept their full attention. For those of us who don’t need to step into the ring or onto the mat on a regular basis, a healthy dose of muscle can help one extra board break, or make your neck just a little bit harder to choke, or help you look great in a tank top when you’re flirting with the store clerk at the Vitamin Shoppe. Okay, so that last point may be a tad superficial. And that’s where the dark side of hypertrophy comes from; seeking muscle for the sake of having bigger muscles. It’s a fine line, for sure. But if it wasn’t, how interesting could it really be?

Back to our original example…why was the little voice in your head hoping against hope that it wasn’t Mark Kerr you’d have to confront? Because Mark Kerr is built like a concrete outhouse (or something like that). He’s a big, mean-looking mammer jammer, and without knowing any more about him, your primal instinct tells you “That guy hits hard. Don’t tick him off.” A physique along those lines (not necessarily taken to that level) can be physically imposing enough to the point of, even momentary, distraction. Granted, this “trick” may not appeal to female martial artists. But a variation of it may.

Look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2, or Demi Moore in G.I. Jane. Both of those hardbodies have inspired countless women to work on their Chin-ups and 1-arm Push-ups. (I once had a co-worker who went to see G.I. Jane and said “I’m totally going to shave my head now.” She never did…but I digress.)

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6798/lindahamilton06km.jpg
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4182/pushup4lz.jpg
Hi, I’d like two tickets to the gun show, please. Thank you.

The actresses specifically increased their muscle tone to give off a seriously badass vibe. And it worked. More muscle, on any body, is almost always a good thing. I say “almost” because for weight-class athletes, the additional muscle needs to be with respect to total bodyweight. This starts making things like bodyfat percentage and lean body mass some important variables to track. However, that’s a whole different egg to crack and we won’t get into it here. But I don’t mind teasing you with a scenario: a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 20% bodyfat competes against a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 40% bodyfat. Who’s likely to win and why? I’ll bet my salmon sashimi that it’ll be the 20%’er…because he’s got more muscle. But enough on that for now.

Back to Suleymanoglu. Pocket Hercules indeed. Four feet, six inches tall, no heavier than 65 kilograms (62 kilos at most competitions.) Under the wrong circumstances, the guy might be charged for a kid’s ticket at the movie theater, but he’s put more than three times his bodyweight over his head. Imagine that for a second. Let’s say you were born as quadruplets and one day, just messing around, You-2, You-3, and You-4 sit on a couch and You-1 snatch the whole lot into the air. Mom would be so proud. Now imagine performing this feat so often, that you become the 4-time gold medal winning Olympic World Champion. That’s what it’s like to be Naim.

While we’re in an imaginative mood, let’s picture Naim at the horsetrack, enjoying the ponies running. Things take a dark turn, and he finds himself cornered by several big, mean, evil jockeys mounted on their terrible steeds. Fortunately, Suleymanoglu is able to strike first, and he lays out the first evil equine with exquisite ease. That’s the power we’re talking about. Genuine horse (-punching) power. And the best part of it is that that didn’t even expect it. Let’s face it. He’s a little guy, and little guys are rarely intimidating.

But smart little guys (and gals) can capitalize on this prejudice and seize the opportunity if they’re prepared. ‘Prepared’, in this sense, means that you have an above-average strength-to-weight ratio. And the best way to do that is (drum roll please)… weight training! If a person of smaller stature can lift a bodyweight 2-dumbbell Military Press, for example, they’ll be a step closer to finding that surprise K.O. strength.

(Caution – Please wear a hardhat for this next paragraph. Name-Dropping is in progress.)
In a recent correspondence with Martial Arts Conditioning Expert Charles Staley, he pointed out another logical reason behind strength training for the smaller martial artist. To quote Staley “…The whole idea of Martial Arts is that a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy…IF his technique is good enough…which is true of course. I’d simply add to that that if weight trained, that smaller guy could beat an even BIGGER guy!” So, for the shorter crowd, consider weight training to be the first step in your quest for global domination. All shall fear you, and tremble in your path. None shall be safe. Unless they hide on a tall bookshelf.

And what about Richard Simmons? All I can say is this: He’s been an advocate of low intensity, long duration cardio exercise and lightweight lifting for over two-and-a-half decades, and…he…looks…like…this.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6665/rs129gj.jpg
Still just scary.

Would you be scared to take a punch from this guy? Or a kick? Or let him mount you and do some serious ground and pound? Okay, that last one could scare just about anyone. Bad example. But the point remains, if you believe that 10-mile jogs and punching with 3-pound dumbbells will make you a better fighter, then you and Simmons will get along just fine.


To Conclude, After Having Opened Some Eyes (Hopefully)

You’re a martial artist. You learned your punches and kicks. You practice stances and breakfalls. In class, you warm-up with jumping jacks, push-ups, and crunches. Weight training is an extension of the martial arts lifestyle that can add snap to your punches, help you bounce up from a breakfall, and make those torturously dull push-ups seem easier. By neglecting the weight room, you’re making a declaration that you do not want to be the most efficient, most effective practitioner possible. Make a choice. Open your mind, train right, train smart.


How is that even remotely plain & simple?!?

LOL :p

[aml01_ph]

How is that even remotely plain & simple?!?

LOL :p

Duh...if you take a little time reading...especially the titles...duh...

[doc_jude]

Duh...if you take a little time reading...especially the titles...duh...

Duh... you're kidding, right?.... duh....


Duh... 1 – Get Stronger, Faster, and Bigger (if you’re... duh... into that)

Duh... 2 – That Whole “Book, Cover, Don’t... duh... Judge” Thing... duh

Duh... and To Conclude, After Having Opened Some Eyes (Hopefully)


Now, how do those clarify a damn thing?

I've give you a hint: THEY DON'T!!!










DUH.

[Subchimp]

Great article, thanks.
But, I can think of one little reason (maybe an excuse) why someone might choose not to do weight training:

I've recently been travelling and haven't done any weight training (or very much exercise at all) for a long time, and I am now a skinny little fat guy. I was lucky enough to find a bjj gym at a town I was staying in and went along. I was relieved to find that my BJJ hadn't deteriorated as much as my physique.

So my point... if you do weights while you train your technique could get to rely on your strength/speed/weight. Which (at least for me) you can loose far quicker than the skills you learn in training. No problem if you do weights forever, but that's not always easy.

(I realise this argument might be seen as similar to "you might loose an arm in an accident so you shouldn't rely on it in training", but I don't think it's quite as stupid as that.)

[Hiroji]

Great article!

Another reason a martial artist might not lift heavy is if he/she is trying to stay below a certain weight like a boxer... etc.

But ive just started lifting heavy again the last 4 weeks and im loving it ;)

[aml01_ph]

Duh... you're kidding, right?.... duh....

No. I'm not.

Now, how do those clarify a damn thing?

Actually they do. Further clarification can be gained by reading the body of the text. That's why I said you take a little time reading. :rolleyes:

I've give you a hint: THEY DON'T!!!

Maybe the following will help...

Tilte of Article: Top Two Reason's to Lift Weights, Plain and Simple.

Reason 1:
Get Stronger, Faster, and Bigger (if you’re into that)

Example:

In all my years of being a student of strength, fitness, and the martial arts, I can’t think of a more clear testimony to the advantages, nay, the necessity of weight training for the martial athlete than I saw in the 2004 PRIDE contest between MMA pros Kevin “Monster” Randleman and Fedor Emelianenko. Even though the entire match lasted less than two minutes, it has become singularly defined as the suplex heard ‘round the world.

Now, do we truly believe that Randleman developed the strength to suplex a 230+ pound man and violently deposit him like a sack of empty beer cans, and “The Monster” never did a Power Clean or a heavy Back Squat? Conversely, the inspiring (or discouraging, if you’re Randleman) ease with which Fedor shakes off the attack and continues with aggression was certainly a testament to a lifting diet rich in heavy Shrugs and Deadlifts

Point: Lifting weights will help the athlete do more with his or her technique. With the average joe, lifting weights will improve daily life.

Reason 2:
That Whole “Book, Cover, Don’t Judge” Thing

Example 1:

So you’re out clubbin’ one night, gettin’ your groove on, when you’re bumped into by a stranger. You turn around to confront the fiend that interrupted your boogaloo. Standing in front of you is retired UFC pro “The Smashing Machine” Mark Kerr, lightweight Olympic lifting phenom Naim Suleymanoglu, and fitness guru Richard Simmons. Of these three gents, which are you hoping bumped into you?

Point : The mere "appearance" of strength can go a long way especially in the realm of self-defence.

Example 2:

a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 20% bodyfat competes against a 400-pound Sumo wrestler with 40% bodyfat. Who’s likely to win and why? I’ll bet my salmon sashimi that it’ll be the 20%’er…because he’s got more muscle. But enough on that for now.

Point : More muscle mass means more strength.

Example 3:

Back to Suleymanoglu. Pocket Hercules indeed. Four feet, six inches tall, no heavier than 65 kilograms (62 kilos at most competitions.) Under the wrong circumstances, the guy might be charged for a kid’s ticket at the movie theater, but he’s put more than three times his bodyweight over his head. Imagine that for a second. Let’s say you were born as quadruplets and one day, just messing around, You-2, You-3, and You-4 sit on a couch and You-1 snatch the whole lot into the air. Mom would be so proud. Now imagine performing this feat so often, that you become the 4-time gold medal winning Olympic World Champion. That’s what it’s like to be Naim.

Point : You can be strong without being huge. All it takes is planning, dedication, and time in weight room (or whrever you can weight train).

To Conclude, After Having Opened Some Eyes (Hopefully)

You’re a martial artist. You learned your punches and kicks. You practice stances and breakfalls. In class, you warm-up with jumping jacks, push-ups, and crunches. Weight training is an extension of the martial arts lifestyle that can add snap to your punches, help you bounce up from a breakfall, and make those torturously dull push-ups seem easier. By neglecting the weight room, you’re making a declaration that you do not want to be the most efficient, most effective practitioner possible. Make a choice. Open your mind, train right, train smart.

I think the conclusion said the point of the article quite nicely.

In fact, besides you doc_jude, everybody basically understood what the article was about. :confused: The technical terms are easily understandable to anybody who has a moderate grasp of english.

[doc_jude]

Which I must lack, of course :p

[doc_jude]

I'm a fan of high-leverage BW, myself. Of course, you can't get Bigger, Stronger, & Faster by doing any of that, huh?

In the time that you spend driving back & forth to the gym and standing in line waiting for this machine or that rack, you would already be done with your PT and on to some MA!

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=512003

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

I agree with Karl Gotch, a man that has done both BW & Weights. BW is the real deal, and high-leverage BW crosses over to weight lifting WELL.

How strong is it possible to become with bodyweight exercises? Amazingly strong. In fact I would go so far as to say, done correctly, far stronger than someone who had trained for the same amount of time with free weights. Want some concrete examples? One of my former students, JJ Gregory (1993 Junior National Champion on the Still Rings) developed such a high degree of strength from my bodyweight conditioning program that on his first day in his high school weightlifting class he deadlifted 400lbs., and this at the scale breaking weight of 135 lbs. and a height of 5’3”...

After this I was curious and wanted to measure JJ’s one rep max on weighted pull-ups. We started fairly light with 10 lbs. or so. I continued adding more weight while JJ performed single rep after single rep. Unfortunately I didn’t know about chinning belts and chains at that time and the cheap leather belt we were using broke at 75 lbs. Once again, I repeat, at 75 lbs. and JJ had never performed a weighted pull-up in his life. But he had performed years of my specialized bodyweight conditioning exercises. How much could JJ have chinned that day? We will never know for sure, but I will tell you that at 75 lbs. JJ was laughing and joking with me and did not appear to be noticeably bothered by the weight.

And JJ, while the strongest, is not an isolated case...

[doc_jude]

Here's a great article for those that may not have such a domineering command of English as some of the folks 'round here...

http://www.tbkfitness.org/BodyvsFree1.html
Let's move on to the bodyweight vs. free weights debate. Bodyweight exercises are superior for wrestling and other grappling and martial arts, gymnastics, and for those who want to join the armed forces. Weight training is superior for brute strength, football, lifting competitions, and many of the sports. However, when training for other sports, free weights should be combined with sprints, some bodyweight exercises, as well as sport specific drills.

Why are bodyweight exercises superior for grappling, combat, and gymnastics? For several reasons. First of all, in each of those activities one needs the ability to use a muscle group over and over again at high levels - that is, muscular endurance, which is developed very well by bodyweight exercises like squats, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. Second, each of those events requires body awareness.

[aml01_ph]

I don't see your point.

Whether or not your moving metal or your resistance is your bodyweight using disadvantageous leverage, you are still weight training. The article is about 2 very general reasons on why weight training is beneficial. It does not necessarily prefer one form of resistance over another (free wights vs. body weight).

In the field of MA, the use free weights (or using weight machines) is supplemental to the bulk of a practitioners training regimen (i.e. skill acquisition). More often than not the actual training to acquire skills will result in strength gains for the person.

Here's a great article for those that may not have such a domineering command of English as some of the folks 'round here...

My english is not perfect. It's just that with Colucci's use of it in the article is so non-technical that the layman should understand what he was trying to get across. From your posts though, it seems that you believe he is coming from a certain bias in which he prefers free weight over body weight training. Something that is not the case.

[doc_jude]

I don't see your point.

Whether or not your moving metal or your resistance is your bodyweight using disadvantageous leverage, you are still weight training. The article is about 2 very general reasons on why weight training is beneficial. It does not necessarily prefer one form of resistance over another (free wights vs. body weight).

In the field of MA, the use free weights (or using weight machines) is supplemental to the bulk of a practitioners training regimen (i.e. skill acquisition). More often than not the actual training to acquire skills will result in strength gains for the person.

My english is not perfect. It's just that with Colucci's use of it in the article is so non-technical that the layman should understand what he was trying to get across. From your posts though, it seems that you believe he is coming from a certain bias in which he prefers free weight over body weight training. Something that is not the case.

I would say that your English is far from perfect if you cannot grasp my point. I am a native English speaker and will be very shortly earn my B.A. in Linguistics (English). So, next time you want to insult someone's understanding of the English language, make sure that you know who you're talking to.
Here is a quote that you should read over and over and over so you can understand the perceived bias towards weights:


Now, do we truly believe that Randleman developed the strength to suplex a 230+ pound man and violently deposit him like a sack of empty beer cans, and “The Monster” never did a Power Clean or a heavy Back Squat? Conversely, the inspiring (or discouraging, if you’re Randleman) ease with which Fedor shakes off the attack and continues with aggression was certainly a testament to a lifting diet rich in heavy Shrugs and Deadlifts.

Are Power Cleans, Back Squats, Shrugs, or Deadlifts bodyweight exercises? No. In fact, the author of the original post is bias towards weights.
I posted articles from other authors precisely to provide a counterpoint to the argument for BW. I also noted the opinion of Karl Gotch, who has more experience in both fitness and fighting arts than anyone here. He has done BW and weights extensively, and without a doubt stands behind BW for strength training in the fighting arts.

[aml01_ph]

I would say that your English is far from perfect if you cannot grasp my point. I am a native English speaker and will be very shortly earn my B.A. in Linguistics (English). So, next time you want to insult someone's understanding of the English language, make sure that you know who you're talking to.

Sorry if I ruffled yor feathers a bit. But in my experience, native english speakers don't necessarily have the command they are supposed to have over their own language. Besides, for all I know, you could've just earned your degree over the mail after paying some amount.

Here is a quote that you should read over and over and over so you can understand the perceived bias towards weights...

As for the quote, it was written entirely within the context of the article which encourages the use of weights. However, upon reflection of your post count, it is quite understandable for you to believe that the author has a bias towards moving iron. This is not true, however, which all of us who have been here for quite a while know. For example, Colucci has been known to promote chins, squats, dips, etc. using unusual leverage.

Are Power Cleans, Back Squats, Shrugs, or Deadlifts bodyweight exercises? No. In fact, the author of the original post is bias towards weights.

Read above.

I posted articles from other authors precisely to provide a counterpoint to the argument for BW. I also noted the opinion of Karl Gotch, who has more experience in both fitness and fighting arts than anyone here. He has done BW and weights extensively, and without a doubt stands behind BW for strength training in the fighting arts.

Since we are in the subject of name dropping, most of us here are fans of Staley, that russian guy from dragondoor.com, and that guy who promises to give you full splits at stadion.com. All of them are advocates of using weights (bodyweight or otherwise). However, all of them recognize the fact that certain exercises are better than others depending on the sport.

All successfull MMA fighters use weights as supplements to their training. All of them clean, snatch, squat, and press iron.

A bit more from the article you posted:

Let's move on to the bodyweight vs. free weights debate. Bodyweight exercises are superior for wrestling and other grappling and martial arts, gymnastics, and for those who want to join the armed forces. Weight training is superior for brute strength, football, lifting competitions, and many of the sports. However, when training for other sports, free weights should be combined with sprints, some bodyweight exercises, as well as sport specific drills.

Why are bodyweight exercises superior for grappling, combat, and gymnastics? For several reasons. First of all, in each of those activities one needs the ability to use a muscle group over and over again at high levels - that is, muscular endurance, which is developed very well by bodyweight exercises like squats, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. Second, each of those events requires body awareness.

I define body awareness literally as being aware of every part of your body at any given point in time in any given position. The problem with weight lifting exercises, even the good ones like snatches, cleans, jerks, or bent pressing, is that you use "weight awareness" - that is, you have to be aware of where the weight is at all times more than where your body is. As long as the weight is lifted and caught in the correct position(s), the body will naturally follow suit (or else the lift fails).

However, bodyweight exercises take the weights out of the equation. To successfully do such challenging exercises as handstand push-ups, one-legged squats, headstands, and bridges, you have to be focusing on every part of your body. That is why they are so good for wrestling, and other combat sports where your body is in many different positions during a match, and to be able to successfully recover and counter attack, you must have full awareness of where each part of your body is at all times. Similarly, in gymnastics, where you flip and end up in many different positions, body awareness is crucial.

A funny thought occured to me when reading this. In judo, wrestling, or any grappling sport, when you move your sparring partner forcefully towards a certain direction (as in the case of free sparring) doesn't that count as resistance training using weights (albeit the weight of your partner)? Doesn't that require your full attention - your full awareness - on determining how to position your body in order to properly direct where your partners body is supposed to go (especially at realistic speeds)? :P :woo:

His argument here is even quite weak. When doing heavy lifting, I am aware of both my body position and the weight at all times. If I'm not I usually break something.

Not all bodyweight exercises develop body awareness equally. Some of the ones I mentioned above such as handstand push-ups and bridging do a very good job, but regular push-ups on the other hand develop it to a lesser extent. The more a bodyweight exercise requires agility and balance, the more body awareness it develops....

Even the author recognizes the weakness of BW exercises.

So what are weights good for? Many things! Nothing packs muscle on a skinny frame like heavy, intense lifting. Nothing is better for increasing brute strength and power - the kind used to lift a heavy box, open a jar that's stuck, tackle a 210 pound running back running at the speed of light, smash a homerun over the Green Monster at Fenway Park, or throw the discus record distances. However, you should choose useful exercises that work many muscles at the same time, exercises such as cleans, snatches, jerks, presses, squats, and deadlifts, using barbells, dumbbells, or sandbags.


Even the author recognizes the use of weights! But he doesn't seem to realize that brute force has a correlation to effective technique. :D

[doc_jude]

Sorry if I ruffled yor feathers a bit. But in my experience, native english speakers don't necessarily have the command they are supposed to have over their own language. Besides, for all I know, you could've just earned your degree over the mail after paying some amount.

Yeah. That's cute. Why don't you take a look at my profile.

Since you're going to insult your integrity by basically insinuating that I'm lying, then I'm going to do the same.

For all I know, you still live with your mom in Oklahoma as a complete recluse with no experience of the world beyond the Internet and satellite TV.

Isn't this fun? :rolleyes:


As for the quote, it was written entirely within the context of the article which encourages the use of weights. However, upon reflection of your post count, it is quite understandable for you to believe that the author has a bias towards moving iron. This is not true, however, which all of us who have been here for quite a while know. For example, Colucci has been known to promote chins, squats, dips, etc. using unusual leverage.

That's just the beginning of BW. But whatever.


Since we are in the subject of name dropping, most of us here are fans of Staley, that russian guy from dragondoor.com, and that guy who promises to give you full splits at stadion.com. All of them are advocates of using weights (bodyweight or otherwise). However, all of them recognize the fact that certain exercises are better than others depending on the sport.

Comparing "Staley, that russian guy from dragondoor.com" to KARL GOTCH... well, that's just beyond me.

Oh, and you can't just lump together BW and freeweight/machines as "weights". If you would have a clue, you would categorize these as "resistance exercises". Not "weights". Spend a year lifting weights and a year doing REAL high-leverage BW and then say "It's all just weights". You'd be lying to yourself then, too.


All successfull MMA fighters use weights as supplements to their training. All of them clean, snatch, squat, and press iron.
I hope that you can back that up with some kind of documentation. But you can't. Such blanket statements are sure signs of BS. Do you have any skills in critical thinking? I doubt it.
I don't even tolerate blanket statements from my woman, I'm certainly not going to tolerate it from some kid that lives in his mom's basement. That statement has been thrown out until further notice.


A funny thought occured to me when reading this. In judo, wrestling, or any grappling sport, when you move your sparring partner forcefully towards a certain direction (as in the case of free sparring) doesn't that count as resistance training using weights (albeit the weight of your partner)? Doesn't that require your full attention - your full awareness - on determining how to position your body in order to properly direct where your partners body is supposed to go (especially at realistic speeds)? :P :woo:
How does moving a weight that resists your attempts compare to moving an inert lump of metal/rock/whatever? Let me fill you in. It doesn't.

His argument here is even quite weak. When doing heavy lifting, I am aware of both my body position and the weight at all times. If I'm not I usually break something.
You're talking about good form. Body awareness and awareness in space are different from "good form". Jeez, your ignorance of this subject astounds me, considering the length of your post. :)


Even the author recognizes the use of weights! But he doesn't seem to realize that brute force has a correlation to effective technique. :D

Brute force has NO CORRELATION to effective technique. If you have to use brute force to apply a technique, then you're probably using the wrong technique. There is a correct technique for every situation. One should train to use an appropriate technique, not just go lift weights so that you can muscle some flabby move. That's what separates some MA-trained brawler from skilled martial artists.

Well, it was nice talking to you I guess. If you ever want to see the other side... well, go for it. There's plenty of info on the web.

'asta.

[southern jester]

thank you for a great article. about time somebody did bring up the subject. needs to be addressed. and thank all of you that have replied that have the experience and common sense to support weight training.

have listened to other martial artist tell me not to use weight training for several years. thier opinion seems to be founded on what the instructor said and not from personal experience.

have problems getting to a gym? that is why i own my well loved and used bowflex. maybe not as good as everything the gym offers yet helps with a tight schedule. who am i kidding ? the bowflex rocks!

[aml01_ph]

Yeah. That's cute. Why don't you take a look at my profile.

Since you're going to insult your integrity by basically insinuating that I'm lying, then I'm going to do the same.

For all I know, you still live with your mom in Oklahoma as a complete recluse with no experience of the world beyond the Internet and satellite TV.

Isn't this fun? :rolleyes:

That's just my basic response to people in forums on the internet making claims that are at best difficult (at the very least pointless) to verify.

That's just the beginning of BW. But whatever.

True. But these are the more common exercises used because with only a little tinkering you can get maximum benefit while Not taking time away to learn more useful martial skills.

By far the hardest arm exercise that is usually done in MA are handstand pushups. But they're nothing compared to the arm exercises of acrobats, gymnasts and contortionists.

Comparing "Staley, that russian guy from dragondoor.com" to KARL GOTCH... well, that's just beyond me.

Pavel Tsatsouline is the russian guy at dragondoor and Tom Kurz is the polish guy in stadion.com. Staley is a reputed trainer of sports professionals.

But I'll do you another one better. Masahiko Kimura, the famed judoka, trained with free weights to supplement his judo.

But speaking of Karl Gotch, I wouldn't doubt that he could do one-legged squats. But I doubt if he included planches in his training.

Oh, and you can't just lump together BW and freeweight/machines as "weights". If you would have a clue, you would categorize these as "resistance exercises". Not "weights".

Yes you can. They are all lumped under "progressive resistance exercises." Any exercise has to deal with resistance. To get any further will have to progressively increase resistance.

Spend a year lifting weights and a year doing REAL high-leverage BW and then say "It's all just weights". You'd be lying to yourself then, too.

Define the exercise, define the sport, and define the needed skill set. There is a reason why some exercises are better than others depending on the sport.

I hope that you can back that up with some kind of documentation. But you can't. Such blanket statements are sure signs of BS. Do you have any skills in critical thinking? I doubt it.

There is a magazine published by weider products that detailed some of what is in Chuck Lidell's training regimen. Ever watched Ultimate fighter? All the coaches are successful MMA fighters. Ever see them make the participants do disadvantageously leveraged BW exercises? If a participant ever did a planche they would be sure to show it.

I don't even tolerate blanket statements from my woman, I'm certainly not going to tolerate it from some kid that lives in his mom's basement. That statement has been thrown out until further notice.

I don't live in my mom's basement. But I won't hold it against you if you don't belive me. :rolleyes:

How does moving a weight that resists your attempts compare to moving an inert lump of metal/rock/whatever? Let me fill you in. It doesn't.

I thought you're getting a degree in linguistics. Please look up inertia. Moving living weight is not only relegated to randori in judo. There is also ukemi where the uke (or the one being thrown) does not make any attempt to counter. Of course this doesn't mean that he has to actively assist in the throw. He's just like a sack of rice, meaning the resistance is just his own dead weight and whatever position he is at the time..

You're talking about good form. Body awareness and awareness in space are different from "good form". Jeez, your ignorance of this subject astounds me, considering the length of your post. :)

Body awareness and awareness in space is a requisite in maintaining "good form." Jeez, your ignorance of this subject amazes me, considering your post on highly leveraged BW. ;)

Brute force has NO CORRELATION to effective technique. If you have to use brute force to apply a technique, then you're probably using the wrong technique. There is a correct technique for every situation. One should train to use an appropriate technique, not just go lift weights so that you can muscle some flabby move. That's what separates some MA-trained brawler from skilled martial artists.

Brute force assists the performance of technique, while technique makes efficient use of brute force. The reason why there is an appropriate technique for every situation is because of the search for the most efficient response. In judo for example, a 120 lb man would find it hard to do a shoulder throw on a 250 lb man without destroying the latter's balance. Its even harder if the 250 lb man has a strong base. The 120 lb man needs a certain degree of strength to fuel his technique in order to accomplish this.

[doc_jude]

yeah, well if it takes you a week to write a reply that may or may not be well thought out... :rolleyes:

[bcullen]

Huh? :confused:

I always thought the number one reason to lift weights was because you were under them. *shrug*

The number two reason was to get women. ;)

[doc_jude]

That's just my basic response to people in forums on the internet making claims that are at best difficult (at the very least pointless) to verify. I can just smell the solidarity... :p


True. But these are the more common exercises used because with only a little tinkering you can get maximum benefit while Not taking time away to learn more useful martial skills.

By far the hardest arm exercise that is usually done in MA are handstand pushups. But they're nothing compared to the arm exercises of acrobats, gymnasts and contortionists.
Is agreeing with me part of your argument?


Pavel Tsatsouline is the russian guy at dragondoor and Tom Kurz is the polish guy in stadion.com. Staley is a reputed trainer of sports professionals.

But I'll do you another one better. Masahiko Kimura, the famed judoka, trained with free weights to supplement his judo.

But speaking of Karl Gotch, I wouldn't doubt that he could do one-legged squats. But I doubt if he included planches in his training.

Thanks for bringing that up. Here you go.
Kimura's class. Watch'em pump that iron!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw)

Karl Gotch' exercises. Yeah, he has no clue about gymnastics, right? Wrong! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVGdza7k1I)

Here's more Karl Gotch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNWHM6aAius)







Yes you can. They are all lumped under "progressive resistance exercises." Any exercise has to deal with resistance. To get any further will have to progressively increase resistance.
Yeah, but you called it weights. Thanks for agreeing with me again. It sure helps your argument.



Not.



Define the exercise, define the sport, and define the needed skill set. There is a reason why some exercises are better than others depending on the sport.
Oh, yeah, I'm sure that that was covered in one of the very good articles that I posted above.



There is a magazine published by weider products that detailed some of what is in Chuck Lidell's training regimen. Ever watched Ultimate fighter? All the coaches are successful MMA fighters. Ever see them make the participants do disadvantageously leveraged BW exercises? If a participant ever did a planche they would be sure to show it.

I don't care what they do on Ultimate Fighter. Besides, maybe if Chuck did something different, he wouldn't have gotten beat down the other day. If you do what everyone is doing, are you superior? No.


I don't live in my mom's basement. But I won't hold it against you if you don't belive me. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:



I thought you're getting a degree in linguistics. Please look up inertia. Moving living weight is not only relegated to randori in judo. There is also ukemi where the uke (or the one being thrown) does not make any attempt to counter. Of course this doesn't mean that he has to actively assist in the throw. He's just like a sack of rice, meaning the resistance is just his own dead weight and whatever position he is at the time..
Half of this seems like you're agreeing with me, & the other half just looks like rambling. Please try telling me me something I don't know so that I can be amazed.



Body awareness and awareness in space is a requisite in maintaining "good form." Jeez, your ignorance of this subject amazes me, considering your post on highly leveraged BW. ;)
Sure it does...


Brute force assists the performance of technique, while technique makes efficient use of brute force. The reason why there is an appropriate technique for every situation is because of the search for the most efficient response. In judo for example, a 120 lb man would find it hard to do a shoulder throw on a 250 lb man without destroying the latter's balance. Its even harder if the 250 lb man has a strong base. The 120 lb man needs a certain degree of strength to fuel his technique in order to accomplish this.

Really? How much strength? How do masters like Mifune-sensei do it then?

"When he was 40, he was challenged by a 6 foot, 240 pound sumo wrestler. Mifune, 5'2" tall and 100 pounds, finally slammed the wrestler with his trademark 'airplane" throw (kukinage). He ate sparingly, slept on a Western-style bed, and did not smoke. In 1937, Kano elevated Mifune to kyduan (9th Degree)."
http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryMifune.htm

Man, you really need to get a clue. You think he's doing some MMA workout, at 100lbs? Is he tossing guys that are over twice his weight? Get a clue!

[doc_jude]

See how that works? Its called a Timely Retort.

[Gary]

Can we limit this to pure debate without the one-upsmanship?

On Topic: The only advantage bodyweight exercises have over weights is the ability to do them anywhere. Saying bodyweight is superior because certain muscle groups can be trained for high reps is ridiculous, you can easily achieve the same effect by doing high repetitions with weights, with the added advantage of better control over variation. If you can already do a movement for 1000 repetitions there will be far more benefit adding resistance than trying to add more reps.

Ultimately both are useful tools, and argueing about which to use is purely an academic exercise. The intelligent trainee will use both.

[doc_jude]

I don't recall anyone even talking about super high reps, but that's okay.

Besides, as an academic, I like academic exercises such as debate. Or as I like to call it, Verbal Randori ;)

Pure BW, of course!

[Gary]

I don't recall anyone even talking about super high reps, but that's okay.
Your own quote:
Why are bodyweight exercises superior for grappling, combat, and gymnastics? For several reasons. First of all, in each of those activities one needs the ability to use a muscle group over and over again at high levels - that is, muscular endurance, which is developed very well by bodyweight exercises like squats, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. Second, each of those events requires body awareness.

Besides, as an academic, I like academic exercises such as debate. Or as I like to call it, Verbal Randori ;)

Pure BW, of course!
That's fine, but posts like this:
See how that works? Its called a Timely Retort.
are unnecessary for academic debate.

[doc_jude]

I've never done anything 1000 times in a row. & I mean anything. I don't think that anyone really takes all those myths seriously, unless it's in the Guiness Book.

BTW, timely retorts are a sign that you know what the hey you're talking about, or at least that you possess wit :)

[Gary]

I've never done anything 1000 times in a row. & I mean anything. I don't think that anyone really takes all those myths seriously, unless it's in the Guiness Book.
That was an example, feel free to replace 1000 with any number above 20.
BTW, timely retorts are a sign that you know what the hey you're talking about, or at least that you possess wit :)
Not when you have to point them out to people they aren't.

[doc_jude]

That was an example, feel free to replace 1000 with any number above 20.

Not when you have to point them out to people they aren't.

Actually, the pointing out was more of a jab than anything else. Point taken.

*Get it? Point... jab... oh, never mind :rolleyes: *

[doc_jude]

That was an example, feel free to replace 1000 with any number above 20.

Are you trying to imply that anything above 20 reps is a waste of time? I hope not, because that is pure falacy.

[Gary]

Are you trying to imply that anything above 20 reps is a waste of time? I hope not, because that is pure falacy.
Off course not, it's goal dependant. That would be like implying anything under 20 reps is a waste of time.

[doc_jude]

Off course not, it's goal dependant. That would be like implying anything under 20 reps is a waste of time.

So... what was your point, then? Why say that?

[Gary]

So... what was your point, then? Why say that?
Because the focus of the original point wasn't the number, it was the fact that weights are easier to manipulate than bodyweight. It's extremely difficult to increase the resistance of a bodyweight exercise by a set percentage. I haven't seen any advantage that bodyweight offers over free weights yet in this thread.

[doc_jude]

I will absolutely agree that it is easier to measure gains with weights. But that is what you're doing, measuring your ability to weight lift. Not quantify the performance benefits garnered from such exercise.
If you want to find out the benefits of BW, the best thing to do is find qualified instruction. Learning to effectively use your bodyweight for strength training isn't something you're going to get from me, I have neither the time nor the inclination.
A good source to start with is Karl Gotch's materials.
We were talking about performance and what benefits someone the most in their chosen activity, whether it be martial arts, wrestling or grappling, football, whatever. There are experts out there, look them up if you want.

Look up Vyayam or Gimnastica Natural. Ask guys like Karl Gotch or Rickson Gracie or Gene LaBelle about what you need to be competitor.
Gene would say "Endurance, Great Technique, & Pain Tolerance".

Me, I'd rather be like Gene: optimize the package I'm in, with M.A. training, endurance training, calisthenics, gymnastic moves, etc, & let them underestimate me. Not present such a big target that in a real world scenario they're rather shoot me than anything else. That's just is not the smart way to do things. Gene LeBell talks about beginning his Grappling training at 7 years old with Ed "The Strangler" Lewis, about training with some grapplers that weighed up to 300lbs, when he was 160lbs at the most. & he says "Endurance, Technique, & Pain Tolerance are most important to a grappler." & this wasn't modern wrestling, this was Grappling where you could strike, use heel locks, ankle locks, armbars, back locks, neck locks, tweak the nose or choke him out. Damn near anything short of pulling a knife was in.
The smaller & harder the target is, even if you can manage to hit it, it could just shrug it off, look you in the eye, & say,"Is dat all you got?" That's very disconcerting, especially if he has skills & compact power of his own, because by the time you figure it out, it may be too late.
I guess the question here is, do you wanna look pretty? or do you wanna be an azzkicker? because sometimes azzkickers are pretty, but even fewer pretty boys kick azz.

[Gary]

Cheers for the assumption, but I'm not exactly a n00b at bodyweight exercises. Not only am I trained to competition standard Muay Thai, which in itself included plenty of instruction on bodyweight movements, I am a big fan of trainers like Ross Enemait, and have personally completed most of the routines in his book, Never Gymless.

When you say I am quantifying my ability to lift weights it's true, but only because I know from experience that this will translate into more applied power on the punch bag. Maximum reps of a movement do not come close to recreating this.

Finally, size is primarily related to calorie intake, not exercise selection. Look at olympic lifters like Pyrros Dimas, he's only 85 kg but he is terrifyingly strong.

edit: Since you called me on my experience with bodyweight exercises, can I ask how much experience you've had using strength programs with free weights?

[doc_jude]

a couple years in high school and then struggling with it my first year in the Navy. Then I went over the 1stMarDiv and started working with Marines. I met up with a couple of Corpsman that did all BW (dips, pullups/chins, pushups of all kinds, rope climbing, squats, etc). They were the best at simply picking folks up and fireman-carrying them around, & since that was a large part of my job description (picking up and/or moving wounded Marines) I jumped on the band wagon.
I've met plenty of guys that can lift weights but it doesn't translate well over to practical use. Example: a Corporal that I lived with could military press more than his BW, but couldn't do a handstand pushup. Didn't make sense. He could bench 350+lbs but couldn't do a one-armed pushup, regardless of how hard he tried.
I found that with BW, you optimize your strength-to-bodyweight and your ability to move your own body is maximized, which has been a concern of mine since starting MA's in my teens. Weights are good, I'm not saying that they're not, but BW is more efficient. The same amount of work put into BW as weight-lifting yields much better results, for my purposes. Less gear, less time, more yield, MHO.

[doc_jude]

When you say I am quantifying my ability to lift weights it's true, but only because I know from experience that this will translate into more applied power on the punch bag. Maximum reps of a movement do not come close to recreating this.
Any resistance training will improve your ability to deliver more force.

Why are you on about this "Maximum reps" bit? I've repeatedly said that my goal is not just endurance through more reps, but mostly strength training through increased leverage. I thought that would have been clear by now... :confused:
Look at some of the articles and vids that I've posted. Don't lump me in with some marathon-rep calisthenics maniacs.
If this is all being cast upon deaf ears, I'd rather not waste my time repeating the same information over and over. I have better things to do...

[Gary]

Seriously, I have seen people trained on bodyweight and I have seen people trained with weights. Out of the two it is always the guys who have used weights that know their body and have more applied power. From your description of your experience you sound like you did a little bit of weights, then skipped over to BW as soon as you got the chance.

You still have not described what you can do with bodyweight that you cannot do with weights. The reason I mention the reps is because that is the first reason you posted for BW superiority. Your examples of why weights dont work revolve around people who have only trained weights. Cross training across several tools and free weights are always the better tool. Whatever BW exercise you choose, additional resistance added with weights can improve it.

[aml01_ph]

Is agreeing with me part of your argument?
No. Your basic argument is that BW exercises are superior based on your posts, your percieved biason Colucci's article, and the articles you linked to. I don't agree to that. My position is that both have their uses depending on your goals and/or what is required to succeed (or at least be better) at your sport.

Thanks for bringing that up. Here you go.
Kimura's class. Watch'em pump that iron!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw)

Karl Gotch' exercises. Yeah, he has no clue about gymnastics, right? Wrong! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVGdza7k1I)

Here's more Karl Gotch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNWHM6aAius)

I'm very sorry but my internet connection isn't up to standards right now. Do the videos show Gotch performing planches? Do they show Gotch doing handstands and then shifting to planches? Would somebody be so kind as to say this so (preferrably not you doc_jude for reasons you should understand).

Yeah, but you called it weights. Thanks for agreeing with me again. It sure helps your argument.

Sure I called it weights. Then you called it resistance exercises. Then I called it PROGRESSIVE resistance exercises. One reason why freeweights are more commonly employed than high leverage BW training is because it is very hard to acquire or set adequate progressive increments.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure that that was covered in one of the very good articles that I posted above.

Not adequately no. From the article you linked to:

However, you should choose useful exercises that work many muscles at the same time, exercises such as cleans, snatches, jerks, presses, squats, and deadlifts, using barbells, dumbbells, or sandbags.

He stated this but did not expound on why they are useful. He did not explain why they are employed. He only presented them as an alternative.

I don't care what they do on Ultimate Fighter.

You asked for documentation. Then you say you don't care. :confused:

Besides, maybe if Chuck did something different, he wouldn't have gotten beat down the other day. If you do what everyone is doing, are you superior? No.

The sad fact about professional fighting is that you get to lose some matches. Royce Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Crocop, Mike Tyson, almost all professional fighters lose some fights in their professional career. :rolleyes:

Half of this seems like you're agreeing with me, & the other half just looks like rambling. Please try telling me me something I don't know so that I can be amazed.

I agree on the truth of what you say. I just don't agree on your assumption that BW training is superior

Sure it does...

Well if that's your response to that particular statement then maybe you haven't employed a coherent freeweight program.

Really? How much strength? How do masters like Mifune-sensei do it then?

I repeat:

The reason why there is an appropriate technique for every situation is because of the search for the most efficient response. In judo for example, a 120 lb man would find it hard to do a shoulder throw on a 250 lb man without destroying the latter's balance.

"When he was 40, he was challenged by a 6 foot, 240 pound sumo wrestler. Mifune, 5'2" tall and 100 pounds, finally slammed the wrestler with his trademark 'airplane" throw (kukinage). He ate sparingly, slept on a Western-style bed, and did not smoke. In 1937, Kano elevated Mifune to kyduan (9th Degree)."
http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryMifune.htm

You provided you own answer. He did it by destroing his sumo wrestler's balance and threw the latter with a technique that is Mifune's trademark. Why is it his trademark? Because he was VERY good at it. His brute force was gained through years of throwing people and along it his technique was perfected. This is more efficient in terms of training time than applying certain gymnastic exercises to your training (for most people it takes at least six months of continuous practice to do a perfect planche with ease)

The point here is that he needed a certain level of strength to destroy the other guy's balance.

Man, you really need to get a clue. You think he's doing some MMA workout, at 100lbs? Is he tossing guys that are over twice his weight? Get a clue!

Heck man, judoka do ukemi on a consistent basis whether the uke is young or old, fat or thin, small or large. Besides he was challenged. Do you think Mifune would be up to the challenge if the Kodokan did not employ tried and tested efficient strength and technical training?

See how that works? Its called a Timely Retort.

Sorry if you felt ignored. But I have things in my life other than logging on to MAP and responding to you. I do have to manage my time effectively you know with family, job, MA, etc. :)

Because the focus of the original point wasn't the number, it was the fact that weights are easier to manipulate than bodyweight. It's extremely difficult to increase the resistance of a bodyweight exercise by a set percentage. I haven't seen any advantage that bodyweight offers over free weights yet in this thread.

Thanks for the support. I agree with the fact that done intelligently, BW exercises do provide high intensity workouts by manipulating leverage. The problem is to get any higher would be difficult, especially if you do not have the luxury of time for training with the event coming soon. This is where freeweights come in where you do not have to worry too much about getting the needed dexterity for the exercise (as in the case of planches) -- dexterity that is very unlikely to be necessary to the sport.

I met up with a couple of Corpsman that did all BW (dips, pullups/chins, pushups of all kinds, rope climbing, squats, etc). They were the best at simply picking folks up and fireman-carrying them around, & since that was a large part of my job description (picking up and/or moving wounded Marines) I jumped on the band wagon.

People who do freeweights can do that too.

I've met plenty of guys that can lift weights but it doesn't translate well over to practical use. Example: a Corporal that I lived with could military press more than his BW, but couldn't do a handstand pushup. Didn't make sense. He could bench 350+lbs but couldn't do a one-armed pushup, regardless of how hard he tried.

It's good that you can do such exercises. But does it mean that you can consistently perform better than those who do freeweights in sports like MMA?

I found that with BW, you optimize your strength-to-bodyweight and your ability to move your own body is maximized, which has been a concern of mine since starting MA's in my teens. Weights are good, I'm not saying that they're not, but BW is more efficient. The same amount of work put into BW as weight-lifting yields much better results, for my purposes. Less gear, less time, more yield, MHO.

For your purposes, strict BW only is good. But saying that BW is superior for everything is what I completely disagree with.

[Colucci]

Once again, I just recently received my updates to this thread's subscriptions, otherwise I would've certainly responded sooner (maybe).

The issue seems to be closed, so I'll just say that it seems if I had titled the article "Top Two Reasons To Perform Resistance Training. Not So Plain & Simple, But Possibly Biased. However, I'm Allowed To Be Since I Wrote The Thing In The First Place, So Obviously It's Going To Express My Own Personal And Professional Opinions", we could've avoided the whole issue. So maybe I should've gone with that. My bad. :rolleyes:

Free weights, bodyweight, kettlebells, sandbags...they're all means to an end, or an end to the means. I always confuse those two. The point is, just like with fad diets, as soon as you say "Do (or eat) only this, and none of those," you're hindering yourself from making maximum progress.

But since the situation seems resolved, I'm glad it at least sparked some kind of discussion. Misguided and misinterpreted though it may have been.

[vingaard]

Weight training makes the difference .It is a myth that you get slow.It depends how you lift.Good article.

[Colucci]

Weight training makes the difference .It is a myth that you get slow.It depends how you lift.Good article.

Thanks, vingaard. Glad you liked it.

[Slick Al]

I'm late on this discussion. But if you haven't done weights while you've been training in a Martial Art, it is a valuable substitute to gain more mass and hence more power.
If you slow down or stop with the fight training for a while and continue with the weights to put on more size, than it will become more of a hindrance. You find that you do loose speed and flexibility.
In other words, you can't have one without the other unless you want to stay ahead of the game.

[SickDevildog]

*Waits for someone to jump in and tell him that beeing musclebound is a myth*

Oh wait someone already did.

If you train correctly, more muscle mass wont cause you to become slower and/or less flexible, that's total and utter BS. :rolleyes:

[Prophet]

To summorize this thread:

Body weight exersises are not superior, nor inferior to iron plates on a bar.

Iron plates on a bar can do everything bodyweight can do.

Iron plates on a bar + bodyweight exersises is best (but not nessicarily best either).


It seems like people generally like to flap their gums on subjects they are not very knowledgeable about - especially about 'fitness'. If I asked you Doc_Jude, what would the effect exersice selection has on your body at a cellular level, you probably couldnt tell me much.

Yet, amazingly, if you knew what goes down inside your body.... ....this thread wouldnt be here. *gasp*

:woo: